The following is a conversation. Vincent reckon, yellow professor of microbiology and immunology at columbia. Vincent is one of the best educators and biology and in general, that I've ever had the pleasure of speaking with. I highly recommend you check out his this week in virology podcast. And watch his introductory lectures on youtube. In particular, the playlist I recommend is called virology lectures. Twenty twenty one, the support this podcast, please check out the sponsors in the description, As a side, no, please allow me to say a few words about the code vaccines. Some people are scared of a virus hurting. Killing somebody they love. Some are scared of their government, betraying them their lead.

There's blinded by power and greed, I have both of these fears and too I'm afraid. As after said, a fear itself. Fear, manifestos, anger and anger leads to division in the hands of charismatic leaders who then manufacture Sure truth in quotes the maximize controversy and a sense of imminent crisis that only they can save us from, and though I am sometimes marked for this. I still believe that love compassion. Empathy is the way out from this vicious downward spiral of division. I personally took the vaccine based on my understanding of the data deciding that, for me, the risk of negative effects from covered short term and long term are far worse than the negative effects from the m rna vaccine. I read, I thought, I decided for me, but I never have.

Never will talk down to people who don't take the vaccine, I'm humble enough to know just how Do I know how wrong I have been and will be a? We have my beliefs and ideas, I think dogmatic certainty and division is more destructive in the long term than any virus. The solution for me personally, like I said, is that choose empathy and compassion towards all fellow human beings, no matter who they voted, for. I hope you do the same read, think and tried to imagine that what you currently think is the truth may be totally wrong. This mindset It is one that opens you to discovery, innovation and wisdom. I hope my conversations with vincent reckon yellow is useful resource for just this kind of exploration. He doesn't talk down to people he's the most knowledgeable virologist of ever spoken too. He has

a political agenda, no desire to mock those who disagree with him. He just loves biology and explaining the fundamental mechanisms of her biological systems. Work that's a great person to listen to and learn from with an open mind. I hope he joined doing so, and no matter what try to put more love out there in the world. As usual. I do a few minutes of as now no ads in the middle. I try to make this. You think so, hopefully you know skip, but if you do please to check out the sponsor links in the description, it is in fact the best way to support this package. I use their stuff and enjoy it. Maybe you will to the show, is brought to you by a new sponsor privacy. I love these guys. It's a brilliant idea, brilliant implementation. I can't believe this hasn't already been done, especially as was they have died, so they did

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you mentioned in one of your lectures and biology that there are more or viruses in a leader of coastal seawater than people on earth in the nature, article titled biology by numbers. It says there are ten to the thirty one viruses on earth also says that the rate of viral infection in the ocean stands at tended the twenty three infections per second and these infections, or move twenty to forty percent all bacterial cells each day. There's a war going on. Do what he make these numbers. Why are there so many viruses, so the numbers you quoting there in my first virology lecture right People don't know these numbers and they get while they get wild by them are so I loved, forgive them so late site. Interrupt me, as I was saying. Ah fine, you have one of the best

introductory lectures on biology. There. racine interrupts he lashes periods. I highly recommend people find you I need to. And watch it. If your curious at all but viruses it adopts it yeah, there's a lot of times through watching it I felt like well now, that's my goal is definite answer. My students tell me when soon once sarah every day after every lecture. I could go home and tell my roommate something she didn't know and then poor way so the number of viruses is really an amazing number, so that number ten to the thirty one is actually just the bacterial viruses in the ocean. So there viruses that infect everything on the planet, including bacteria, there are a lot of bacteria in the ocean and so tend to the thirty one is from basically particle counts of seawater all over the world, so there are more viruses intend to the thirty one but just in the ocean,

and that number is so big. Firstly, of the mass exceeds that of elephants on the planet by thousandfold and if you lined up those viruses and to end they would go two hundred million light years, interspaces so big, a number, it's it's amazing and then yes tend to the twenty some infections per second of these Ours is killing bacteria and releasing all this organic matter, and that's part of this. What we call the bio, jus chemical pump, cycling of material in the ocean, it the bacteria die, they start to sink, and then they get metabolize and converted to cook to compensate that are needed lot if it gets released as carbon dioxide and so forth. So these are actually really important cycles that are catalyzed by the virus was so while the natures developed. The mechanism for mass murder about syria did so

way to look at it, but it's just what happened right. It's interesting. I mean, I wonder why The evolution advantage of like such fast cycling of life is: is it just an accident of evolution? Viruses are so numerous or is it is? It is feature, not a bug so that the fast is made rain. It does not all fast nano viruses or fast summer. Twenty minutes per cycles, some take weeks per cycle. M, but that's just per second. There are so many viruses in the ocean that that's what you get per second, no matter how fast the cycle isn't, but then I look at it this way. Viruses were probably the first organic entities to evolve on the planet long ago, billions billion years ago, just as the earth cooled, and

Organic molecules began to form. I think these self, we call himself replicators they're, just short things that today would look like are rna, which is the basis of many viruses right there. Wasn't able to replicate, and of course they were just naked molecules. They had no protection and it was just are in a baste and at that's tough, because our knees pretty fragile and then in the world, and it probably didn't get very big as a consequence. But then proteins evolved

skipping, like hundreds of millions of years of evolution. Proteins evolved may be without a cell, maybe with the cell, but then to make a cell it, probably where some rna based cells earlier, but they were pretty simple, but the cells that we know of today. Bacteria in single cells, you carry oats, they are very long. Dna genomes and in need a lot of dna to make a complicated so, and so we think at some point The irony became dna, and probably one of the earliest enzymes that arose is the enzyme. Copy that our names to dna, which we now know today as reverse transcript ace, which my former boss, David Baltimore and howard, timmins, co, discovered And- that that enzyme arose and copied I need dna, and then you could build big cells with tee. his dna can be millions and millions of bases in life. In a though the law

this thorny we know of is forty thousand basis, not much bigger than the source code to wages. Is the magic moment. Along that line. I saw was one or two bill billion, maybe three billion years it took to go from bacteria to choose. The complex organism like seems like earth had a very long time night, not a very long time without life. A very long time very primitive life, maybe undiscriminating compromise. If primitive life, people would objecting to think that if you are a boy assumes a complex organ. When is the stars becoming something like? I don't know, what's a good MA am alike but more complexity than just like a single cell. What what do you think is the magic there what's the hardest thing, if you are trying to junior earth and build life and build a simulations that obvious

we live in a video game. What this is so your tribal, this vague what's the hardest part without longer? evolution. Anterior are mostly single cells. They do make colonies. They get together in bio films, which are really important, but they're, all single bacteria, and the key is making an organism were cells, two different things. if skin cells in I cells in brain cells, bacteria never do that and the reason is probably energy. Bacteria can't make an energy to do that and so There was another cell existing at the time the ark here and the idea is that of bacteria went into in Archaea and became the modern day, mitochondria the energy factories, the cell and that now lead that sell, develop into more and more

located organisms like we have today was well about energy to the mighty contracts. The energy to my country is the magic thing I think so it is actually not my ideas. Nick Jones have you heard of Nick Jones he's an evolutionary biologists in the uk and he's done experimental work on this in its his idea that the defining point was. The ability to make a lot of energy which are mitochondria can do is basically a whole back. harry inside of a bigger salad? becomes what we now call you carry oats and that they can get more more complicated, so being you back to the viruses. I want to finish that story here, which points averse come along. So remember we have these pre cellular, they're called pre cellular replicas right. And so we have a pre cellular stage where we have these self replicating molecules and cells arise. And then the self replicating molecules invade the cells because

Why? Because it's a hospitable environmentally mean they didn't know that they just when ended it turned out. It was beneficial for them, so it stuck and they replicate sighed the sound now where they are pools of everything they need to get more more complicated and then they steel proteins from to sell to build a protective shell, and then they can be released. As virus particles are now protected. They can move from house to house and because there, at the earliest stages of cellular evolution, they can diversify. to infect anything that arises, and that is why I think they're. So many of them and everything on the planet is infected because the ants

instead of everything, was infected many years, so it's easier to steal than to build from scratch. So it gets easier to sort of break into somebody. Else's thing has still their protein. As my colleague dixon department calls viruses. Safe crackers, safe crackers is just ah from an evolution perspective. It's yeah: it's it's easier to steal because he can select, but then you have to figure out the mechanisms for stealing for breaking into from cracking to say you don't have to figure out. It just happens right because molecules are so diverse that amount

who gets into a cell and if there's a protein, it sticks to it. It's gonna stick, and that gives an advantage. There's no in others, no planning, there's no stinking about it right, it just happens. I will return to that fact that what a, but these numbers are crazy. So what, as these are more complex organisms, evolved the sick us humans as an example? I should we be afraid of these high numbers. She would be worried that there's so many viruses in the world led to a certain extent. I mean they have it's twofold: the good and bad right viruses or no. There is no question. They can be bad. We know that because they've infected and cause disease throughout history, but we're also you and I are full of Irises that don't hurt us at all. On probably help us in every organism is the same, so they are clearly beneficial as a consequence. So I think so every living thing on

planet, has multiple viruses infecting everything you can see and most of them? I think we don't worry about because they can't infect us their unable. In fact, now you could actually you can actually take your feces and send them to accompany they will sequence. Your viruses in your feces for you, you're fecal via her home right and the most common virus in humans, sees his plant virus. It infects, peppers, schooled, pepper model, mosaic fires and ask people eat a lot of peppers and have just passed his right through you, cabbages full of viruses from the insects that work on the cabbage and the fields we eat them. They just pass us, so I think most of the viruses we don't need to worry about, except when we're talking about species that are closely to us mammals. Of course. I then, I think the most numerous wonder the most concerning their viruses, like bats bats of twenty four

out of mammals and rodents, her forty percent of mammals and we humans live near. by radio, and we know throughout history, many viruses have come from bats and from rodents. Two people no question of it: the proximity internal, just living together in a proximity genetically too. So it's more like their virus was jump from in the road and birds to birds can give us their viruses. That's happened. Influenza viruses. Her come from birds mainly so I think those the three species I will not species- is higher than species, obviously, Those are the three I would worry about in terms of getting their viruses in I don't really know. What's out there right, we have very clue about what viruses in I've for years wanted to capture wild mice. Backyard and see what viruses they have, because no one knows

and it can ask them so you mean map like is there which, as of yet no I have to it, would have to sacrifice them and take tissue and then bring it in lambda genome sequence. Who can do a thorough sequencing to determine your viruses? Is there sufficiently good cap, categorization viruses or you that's a very good question. So, whenever you do sequence right. You get some environmental sample when you extract nucleic ass. If you sequences What you do is you run? It passed. The database with the gold standard is the Jan bank data base, which is maintained here in the? U s and you see if you get any hits and then you can see ya, look this. This sequence is similar to this virus and you can classify or the virus. as you see the problem is, ninety percent of your sequence is dark matter. It doesn't hit with anything. It's probably a lot of it- is unknown viruses and it's gonna be hard to figure out. Some was gonna have to go after it sorted through so

ass. You can find a lot of viruses and the numbers you are astounding. You can find thousands of new viruses just by looking in various lifeforms. there are many more that we don't pick up because they're not in the database. Maybe this is a good time to take a quick tangent. What do you think about alpha fold to I dunno? If you've been paying to them. I did my solving the protein folding problem and then of releasing first open source in the code, which is for me as a after a person, I love and then second of all, also making make three hundred thousand predictions or something like that at four different protein structures and releasing that data. Yet out on the side of cars, you make you're saying, there's dark matter or is there something? I

What, first, what are your general thoughts level of excitement about their their work and, second, how can that be applied to viruses? Do you think we'll be able to explore that matter of virology. she was really because in all these dark sequence, you can translate it and make a protein you can see Protein looks like it has what we call an open reading frame right, a star and stop and right now it's just a bunch of amino acids. But if we could fold it may be the foe, would recognise, would be like something. We already know some protein fold, which gives you a lot of kids. it right there, and only so many protein folds in biology and that dark matter is probably one of em. So I think this very exciting, because for years I followed structural biologists for years in the beginning we couldn't even solve structures of viruses are too big. We could do smaller.

feels like my a globe, and that was the first one done took years to do that then ask computational power increase than they could start to do viruses, but it took a long time x ray crystal aggravate. Dependent on getting crystals of the virus right and now weak. who cry o electron microscopy, which is much faster. You could solve the spike of sars go. Veto was solved in two months by

by jason mcclelland here in Austin. Actually, at the beginning of the the pandemic, but you're limited, you can't do huge proteins, you can only do moderately sized ones so or as actually you can do viruses, but you can't do small proteins so that speed it up, but it's still too fast to solve yet a new protein. You want to solve its structure. So if we could predict it- and I know from talking to structural biologist has been their holy grail from day one. They want to be able to take a sequence of a pretty put it in a computer and have the the structure put out without having to do all the experiment so why? This is very exciting that you can predicted that mean it's not finished, obviously, and there's more to do, but I think it will be a day where you could take any amino acid sequence and predict what it's going to look like c, but like aren't, structural biologist can get

greedy. So once you have that, don't you want to go more complicated, then don't you want to go cause? That's that's just the first step right, you're, a golfer, you know acids a structure. Then there's like multiple protein interactions. They, how do you get to the virus? Well, so that's what the ultimate goal of getting a structure is and then you can do experiments and figure out what structure, he's right, so many in the old days, structural biology was a career in itself. You worked with people who had a system, and yourself crook, means for them. Then you moved on to another one. You didn't really do any experiments. The other people got to do all the interesting experiments. Now young structural biologists are multi faceted they solve structure, and then they say what happens if we change this amino acid? Oh look at it blocks binding to the receptor. This must be receptor, binding interface, so that's the exciting stuff, absolutely is doing the experiments. I wonder if you do some kinds of like

simulations of like different proteins. Multi protein systems going to war against each other they get to try to figure out. You know, reinforcement learning is used in alpha zero, for example, to learn chess and go, and that's using the self play mechanism where the thing is against itself and those better and better. Whether you can, I wonder if you could simulate almost evelyn in that way, for us for primitive biological systems to have them in simulation fight, each other and the sea will comes out like a super. Dangerous vires comes out or super like chuck, norris type, a thing that defends against the super dangers bars in its own simulation show an example would be: will these variants of source code to a rising right which which

look to be selected by immune responses, but we now we know what amino acids are changing in the spike in how they block antibody, you could stimulate that you could say what what does the anybody looking at you these, wherein about his by number physical epitaphs? you could map them on change them in a simulation one by one in and go back and forth between the anna body and the virus. So all these evolution is is what we call an arms race right, the virus changes and then it evades the hosts. And then the house can change. The house takes longer to change, though unfortunately it takes geological time, but it can and then the voice Errors can change and can go back and forth, and we can see evidence of this in an genome sequences of both viruses in their hosts, and so you can take a protein in a house that is a receptor for multiple viruses.

you can see all the impacts of virus pressure on, and you could stimulate that for sure, and that's just one thing that you could do. You could stimulate changes in sayer, an enzyme that makes it resistant to a drug and predict all the drug resistance. But but the problem is people like me, the experimental virologist on how to do any of that. So we need to collaborate with people, I guess all with other humans. Do we do that? We do that, but with people from a field that were not used to write. I suppose people who it'd be a. I suppose, machine learning, machine, learning, people and you would say look this is the biological problem. Is there a way we can use your tools to attack the problems? Those people are anti social introvert that at that have a place like this and try to hide from other people in the world very difficult to find in wild looking so

outside of doing amazing, brilliant lectures online you host and produce. Five votes, a related pike s, including my favorite this week and viral algae. Also, this weaken per citizen this week in microbiology and so on so you're a good person to ask what are the categories of small things: small biological things in this world that can kill. You kill us humans it. Let's, let's you said they most viruses a friendly or at least not unfriendly, ballistic at the unfriendly ones. Invite susan bacteria and those kinds of things. When you look at the full spectrum of things that can kill, you can kind of paint a brief picture. The I think that the big picture is that the things they can kill? You are a minority of everything. That's out there and we're talking about molecules

We have in us proteins. I can kill us prisons that are just it's a protein in us and if it miss folds, it makes all of its other copies. Miss folded, then you'd be die of a neurological disease. This pretty rare super. Their proteins are viruses and, as I said, they certain ones can kill us, but even though, if we get those from animals. It's not straightforward. If you look, it serves Kogi to right. This is probably a once in a hundred year pandemic. I would say quibbling to nineteen eighteen its devastation and in between there have been smaller pandemics of other other viruses. But doesn't happen all that often We have a lot of viruses. We have a lot of bacteria of various sorts that can cause infections in us and there's it's a limited number right, you strapped cockeyed staff. Look I in clusters, media which you go on and on but we know how to handle those as long as we have

it's my crowboroughs, it's just that we abuse them and we get resistance. So that can be a problem and we have fungi, not mushrooms but much smaller. Fungi that multiply that sub microscopic herbs just at the microscopic level they can enjoy climates of the. U s you can inhaler spores and they can grow in your long if, if you're, immunosuppressed, suppressed and so forth, so those are. the tiny guys, and then we have parasites which we do this. We compare citizens where sing who sells even worms of various sorts, can invade you and close all sorts of problems at home as they come terrified to listen to that podcast. What what's it like?

I would want you learn. Is that you can you travel somewhere and you can get infected, bring it back home? Yes, here in the? U s, we do have certain kinds of parasites, but because of our lifestyle we more or less avoid them. For example, there is a parasite, could plasma which has is infected most of the world. Actually, because a lot of people like the raw meat- and you would get it from from raw meat and

We're, not as fond of that here in the us we like to cook or me, but that could be a consequence of eating raw meat, is though at least to what is it called toxoplasmosis? Yes, the toxoplasmosis, and it's mainly a big issue- is if you're pregnant and you get taxa, then your fetus is going to be very badly malformed. It's going to have brain defects and so forth and and animals can get it as well. So there are a lot of parasites of that nature, which you often acquire by food, eating food of different sorts, and it usually happens elsewhere. We just and on this week in parasitism we do I have a case. So Daniel Griffin is our resident physician, he's a doctor, a real doctor right and he every month he comes up with a case. Okay, this is a person I saw, and last month

Whistler young lady had travelled somewhere and she ate for raw fish. He was somewhere southeast asia or something- and she ended up with a with with red bumps all over her skin. It turned out was a paris from the fish that moved around inherent and very easy to cure. We have if the right doctors in the right drugs you can cure. What about diagnose? Ike connect the red spots to the factors, versa, various you do if you have the right diagnostics, Daniel often goes to parts of the world where they don't have diagnostics and he has to use other mechanisms. He may have to take a bit and look at it under a microscope. And then he may not be able to get the drug depending on where he is, but if these, but often he sees patients who come back to the u s and they get diarrhea where they have a fever- and he said where have you been and then he can put two and two together, and so we let our listeners do that and they all send in guesses, and it's wonderful to hear them go through this. So there are a lot of

yesterday, basel and so that you can get you. You have to be careful about eating when you go overseas and water to water as well- and you know in pursuit of africa, there are parasites in the lakes it. If you go swimming, they can invader. In fact, I can go into your hair. Follicles and burrow in and get into your bloodstream succeeding. So Daniel is interesting because he's very adventures he doesn't is not afraid of any of it so there's a famous lake in africa lake Malawi way, which harbours a lot of these points Besides resale yeah yeah, I just make sure I towel vigorously when I get out of that then go. get rid of them, and that was the name of an episode. But you know while vigorously you know sushi, you can or you can get worms from sushi and that solution is to freeze it and many sushi. Restaurants now have liquid nitrogen. The the snap freeze their sushi in that kills all the parasites and a study was

actually done in japan showing that freezing does not alter the taste of sushi because Allah says he is he a big and just as surely as brilliant yeah I was thinking about you know, I'm so boring and bland that, especially now in texas, vienna beating, a bitter barbecue I realize everley haven't explored, the culinary world and I've been curious. The travel and tastes different foods is there. Something said by way of advice You know channeling Daniel, I guess, if you're to travel in the world, if eating is the thing they get you the parasites. What's good advice for eating in a strange parts of the world when goya, india, china- is there something you could say by way of advice,

I think Daniel would say make sure your food is cooked caught, but that's a boy. Yes, that's unfortunate, and he would agree with you because you know that many vegetables are, to a delicious salads, even her delicious, not cook, but they can have parasites in them. Meets fish people like to have on cooked so if you want to be really safe and boring, just make sure everything is cooked, and now we have a case this week and trip of a young man who went, I forgot where he went, but he stayed in a hotel. I think he oh well mexico and stayed in a hotel, and he said the day he came back with diarrhea and fever. He said the day I dunno, where I stayed in the hotel. I just ate hotels, who'd lots of vegetables and fruits and probably they weren't wash with clean water. You know he got something from that. The bottom line, is most of these infections with parasites can be diagnosed and you can be treated and you'll be fine

So if you really want to experience the cuisine, I don't think you should worry about it. As with Daniel attack us into the basics. We can then jump around all over the place. What are the basic principles of virology may be? A good place to start is what is a virus? That's great. I mean I talk in my first lecture for twenty minutes before I get to that, but and I wonder if I should put it up front, but it's kind of a boring definition. So if you do that, first people will turn off. So first you tell them about all the millions and billions of viruses around so a virus. We have a very specific definition, cause it's different from everything else on the planet, because, first of all, it's a parasite. It takes a parasite means you take something from someone else and we have human parasites who take money.

from others right, but in biological terms a parasite take something from the host that would the horse would otherwise use energy or some building block or something there's, never really a symbiotic relationship between a virus in the house. Whether there can be no that's the dichotomy, I think, is that we do find them is parasites. Yet I just told you twentyman: to go. Then many viruses are probably beneficial, so I think what it he's as we are. We're gonna have to change our definition right because after definitions, we maker, just constructs that make it easier for us to study, did not necessarily represent. What's right. Here I got pluto was a planet at first and asked not apply anymore in a lot of people very upset, but it's only according to us. There may be another race living somewhere else who thinks it's a planet right or maybe the

It's why viruses are attacking humans are very angry that we're calling them parasites so right now our definition gutes parasite, because a virus cannot do anything without a cell. If I, if this mug were full of viruses it would not do anything for years, eventually probably lose its inflexibility, but it's not going to reproduce here need cells and he wrote to the first people who discovered viruses that was astounding, that just reproduced divide on their own, like bacteria, so vires needs to get inside of a cell inside the sell. It can't just hang around on the surface it needs to get in in order to make more of itself, and so we call it an obligate interests cellular parasite because it needs to get in itself and that it takes things from the cell in the form of all kinds of molecules and processes and energy and so forth

new viruses. Obligate means is obligated to being said so and absolutely it will not reproduce outside of the cell, so this muggah virus is, can in no way be living. In my opinion, however, once it gets inside of a cell now the cell is a virus infected cell, it's alive, so a virus. In my view, has two phases right: it's this non living particular phase that everyone is used to I'll send you. You need a virus for your table I'll, send you a nice model. I think it would look with which yes than another with all this other stuff yeah. Well, these are all mechanics Oh there's, no biology here for you We want a virus, you not one of them. Of course, I'll! Send you one in particular, we could look at a cost that we have the three demands, structures solved by structural biologists. We take the hornets we put in three d printer and you can make amazing models right of any virus and so

The huge variety of viruses, the huge that we know of attitude, which is only a fraction of what's out there, what's the cattle, Where is this our neighbours? Dna viruses? What what are those dna in order to her too broad categorization nay indeed, these are genetic material- can be two different chemicals, so are an eight or everything else on the planet. Besides viruses, old dna based you- and I are dna based everything on the planet today is dna based, accept some viruses or are an aid based and that's because as I mentioned earlier, the first life that arose on the planet was a based as it is like old school viruses to old school is very weak relics, ya relics, and this has got a name school. The rna work which I think is great, is a big still or they are the relics dying out on other relics, in my opinion, are the most successful viruses the irony viruses in the source code to

We are in a virus. We can talk about why they're so successful, but you have, broadly speaking, viruses with r and a genetic information which are relics, of course, contemporary they have adapted to the modern world and the modern organisms living in it, and that we have dna based viruses which are extremely conservative and slow. There very success for you know. Everyone has a herpes virus infection, but they don't get the news. Like the irony viruses that do the hiv. the influenza viruses in the m sars corona viruses they get, the prisoner a base, his aren't. I let you change more so than dna, so they they ve, evolved much faster, darnay, lars much faster and, in fact, When I have an electron, evolution are no fewer, listened to when you should it's really. I think it's really interesting.

are any viruses exist at their error threshold, which means they can't make any more mutations when they reproduce otherwise they're dead they think they're they're evolving. At their error threshold dna viruses are hundreds of times lower than their error thresholds And we know this, we can do an experiment to find that out now why that is a good question. But to that that's the reason why our any viruses are far more successful. They in fact many more hosts and their very, I would say slippery. They can change hosts really quickly. In any animal harbouring a virus. They say a bat in some cave somewhere. It's not just one genome its millions of different genomes, all kinds with all within the framework of say, corona virus, but they are all different and one

genome in their might just be right for infecting a person. If it ever encountered, that person mean that's the thing that or there could be a large number there's a tiny fraction, but a large number of them and they're all operating at that at the threshold of error, it's as fascinating. It's a little like a six startups little entrepreneurs like a startup as many of them fail at many of the changes, there's the dna viruses that are like the I b m and exactly exactly big corporations, very good conservative with bureaucracies and all that kind of stuff. So a lot of baggage, yeah yeah, it's expensive for them to reproduce yeah, and they don't move quickly. Yes, the already viruses have the fast moving members. So sort of viruses, we call them earlier intracellular, parasites and then I told you there's dna rna, but then let's go further than nuclear as it's not naked, because Naked nucleic acid in the world isn't good, I mean it. It existed in the

and the pre cellular world, but a problem with a lot of threats to it then naked nuclear guess it doesn't last long in the environment so that their covered the nuclear ass, it is good covered. It can be covered with a protein. Shallow pure protein shell or it can have a membrane around it, which would be a lip ids from the host cell. So leopards says it's a fatty membrane, fatty membrane and so ourselves are coated with fatty membranes re ourselves. The outer plasma membrane right. That is no viruses can be too for their diana exiles, but without the ability to do the mighty congress that some some are summer than we have nuclei than I have made a conduit, but they do have a nuclear acid there they have a membrane and then, of course, there. Spikes in the membrane that allow them to attach to cells, and so that complete are two different kinds of they have they all have a detachment mechanisms like ways to my keys, inter

that is to say all have to get into cells. There are. There are a couple of exceptions, though there are viruses, fungi and plants. So let's do the fungi for fungi would be like east. The viruses east so was pretty hard to get through. So viruses, typically don't attach to the east and get inside. Rather they they just live in the east forever and they multiply as mostly nucleic acids and as the east divide, they go into the daughter cells and that's how they exist. Plant viruses also, the plant cell wall, would be very hard to get across with a by binding a protein, so plant viruses get into plants either by pests that inject them in there sucking sap out and they inject virus. At the same time, we were, farmers

would have contaminated farm equipment and they roll over the plants and introduces viruses. So those fungi and plant viruses- they don't have this specific receptor binding to get them into the separate everything else. Yet the virus binds to something on the surface, very specific, it's taken into the cell, because that's what cells do when things bind their exterior and they take it in cause. In most cases, it's good, it's something they need, and so the virus slips- and I guess you'd call that a trojan horse right, or is it so hard to not at the poor, more fires? This whole thing it is hard, so obviously they don't know any of this than actual trojan horse so that they do not getting actually tricked into a human trick each other

it or passive it. It's just through so many years of evolution. It's you select something that works and it continues and what survives than goes on with a perhaps a slightly different approach, a love. This idea path, of course, according to somehow as though, for my sufficiently intelligent area civilization, observing humans are behaviour, might seem passive to his hand, stand fully exactly or doing, and then there's freewill, whilst operating in the same way, could be soldiers as just the much higher lower complexity yeah. So I love that a distinction between active and passive ivy. The point is that I think anthropomorphized to a certain extent, is fine, as it helps people understand, but when you start to say, I think that the virus is doing that, because then you're putting a human lands on it, and you may be wrong because you don't know why things happen for a virus, so

right. Now we have various emerging and peoples who I think it's because the anna these are selecting for variance that's good. I here, but it may not be the only thing that guy used, emerging them coming to the table. Negotiating yeah it again to trouble that, rather than wait till my sins be careful about the anthropomorphized, because you can apply your values to a virus and you have different values: human in you have what what we think, is the reason for this outcome may not be right. That's all just be open minded mare about it in both directions. I actually one of the things that push back on his in in the space of robotics people, most people in robotics tried to knit not anthropomorphized. For example, they don't give agenda or name to robots. They really try to seize the machine and to me it makes sense in once, when one way It totally doesn't make sense another if that robot is to interact operating the human.

out and interact with humans. We have to. We have to anthropomorphized it, in order to understand as an engineering problem, how should it operate in a human world? Now the difference of viruses, the scale of operation, it doesn't make sense to treat them as human, like because the scale of oppression which smuggled robots you're in the same timescale, the same spatial scared, of course in the movies, they always give them names and personalities, yeah yeah, that's the moon. that's my argument is we should do the same when you try to solve engineering problem, robotics, two stages for the movies. Well, let me ask you this, because you said controversially, not really that viruses are not living. Defend yourself, otherwise is alive or not, as I've seen many people say they have to be, they may have to click ass his day.

They mutate, that's true, but they dont do it on their own the particles in my muggers just not doing any that unless they get into a cell, so viruses did cell is alive. I totally agree with that because in fact, when a virus, it's in a cell- converted into a virus making factory, if you will listen, longer a cell, is some people call it a virus? So I don't really like that, but it's fine. So that's what I'm talking about the particle is not life, you can have your virus infected cell is as alive, but the particle it just would not do anything forever, without getting inside of a cell, were once its into such it it is alive, then, but it's no longer particle it's taken apart and nucleic ass. is moving around the sounds, making proteins mention. It makes new particles, and then those particles released the cell there now living anymore, so its kind. I think it's cool, like a spore, a sport

albania or a seed. Reloads deceived doesn't work because the seeds the cells in the seed have the ability to make their own energy and so forth, but a bacterial spore it's the same thing doesn't do anything unless you add water and nutrients in that starts to divide but doesn't need to get into a cell, it's very different from a virus. So that's why the particle and when people think of virus they're always thinking of the particle, and that's why I say it can't be because the particle can't do anything on it's own. But if you think of a virus as an organism with a particle phase in a in a part in a cell, then it makes sense to be alive and by, at least a particle you're. Referring to that structure, they have been mentioning surprise of the membrane and not that that has been called. What is a virus particle? very. Very you should have here a send you one and then you can refer to us as sexiest one to have. I quite well in terms of particles to have tipple well, unfortunately,

ones, that you can three d print to they're, not going to be severe that only they're, the ones that we know the structures of right. So someone sent me last year, three d model of sars coffee to it. It's beautiful, it's actually cracked open. So you can see the r and a and the spikes erst sticking out. They even put some antibody sticking onto the spikes, and I mean who, when I Do this on a live stream. People love this like, oh, my god, this beautiful it is it's absolutely gorgeous. I have that. I have my virus that I worked on most of my career poliovirus. I have a three d model of that which I actually just had made its core just and you can have it made in any color. You want right. What would you say is the most fascinating, terrifying, surprising, beautiful virus to you say you were evolved devices. You looked at some time, you just sit late at night with a glass of wine looking over the sunset which wise to think about so

it fulfilling all of those adjectives is hard nature, fascinating, exciting terrifying, with a terrifying as an optional one I think cause may may be. That puts a lot of pressure. I see terrifying it to me. It I'm not terrified, because we can handle as most viruses it. As you see, with his brand new one that emerged a year ago, we we can handle it. From a virology perspective. Yeah I mean the the human perspective is a different story. Right, that's always an issue, but so I I think there there are a couple of different categories of virus, so we could do the the terrifying- and I think rabies is a terrifying virus, because unless you're vaccinated one hundred percent certainty you're going to die, so you get bitten by a rabid wreck, or bad were dog whatever, and you know one there still. Seventy thousand deaths a year of rabies throughout the world because allow

feral dogs running around that are infected. Unless you're vaccinated, you're gonna die, there's nothing. We can do we do have a vaccine which we can actually give you even after you, ve been been, which is the only vaccine that works that way. It's a therapeutic right. It will treat year, illness caused disease, take so long to develop the you eventually, you get what kinds of neurological issues and paralysis and so forth, but it takes time and you can be vaccinated- will prevent that in the meanwhile. So people always say: what's the most lethal irises Ebola. Now it's actually rabies. Monsieur vaccinate, it will kill you. Maybe it is good to linger talk about vaccines a few times today. It's good to linger on cases were vaccines have clearly undoubtably helped human civilization

and it seems like rabies, is a good example of rabies. Is great because Everyone knows what happens when somebody gets rabies. The fear of water, hydrophobia ere, your body becomes spastic and stiffen shirks around, and you consciousness. You can't know no more fun right, that's horrible to harbour die. So I think most people know that has been popularized enough in media rights so that nobody would probably objective getting I was just a bit by this raccoon and ran off ok, what should assume its rapid. We should immunize you and most people are okay with that yeah because they know the concept It is also pretty rare right. It's not like something that you try. and get into the arms of three two hundred fifty three hundred million americans it's hard but

The few thousand every years is easy, so the chestnuts abilities difficult ass to that is the airborne so scenario board it just has to be. We have to be beaten, although some some, will claim you could walk into a cave and the bats in a breathing out. Rabies virus could infect you, but I don't really think that's wealth, that's worth substantiated I think it's a by how'd, you do a study on the very hard to do, for you'd have to collect the vapours in the cave and show the they're infectious, which someone emailed me the other day you like this, that they work here. Just immunized, all the bats in the world against these viruses, and I said well. How would you do that? caves everywhere right is it well. Maybe you could just go. you're, a civilised yeah, that's pretty dangerous. And then and then all the bats should have vaccine passports to make sure

there, you have to get their consent before you do it, but we do immunize wildlife against rabies. We have rabies vaccine. Her wild animals that are whole bunch of them that get rabies and we put it. We put it in bait and drop it from helicopters in the woods and it drops down the incidence of rabies in people. People know people hiking it written in software they dropped the incident. So we can do that. I didn't know that I was wondering how much medical arr we doing for animals in the wild, because every they become more more aware that animals are living in extreme poverty. Right, you don't know you think like now, draw great, you know like, like when animals are living on a farm terrible they offer to compare like with life is like in or like the zoo income

Life is like in the wild in lighting. The wild is very tough. I think we can most animals have to the carnivores anyway, that the catch their food every day and then there's the viruses there have viruses as well, Those are the rabies. Libidinous is the only I am aware of for wild animals. We do in munich lots of other animals, sir. We be chickens and pigs in cows, even fish farmed fish. We are each fish up and give it an injection in our when it's a small fish. But that's mostly so that the farmers get a good yield. We don't really care about the animals right. We want a good yield. Fur market and then there's some examples where we. Immunize animals to prevent spillovers into people.

There's a disease called hendra in Australia, which was discovered in the nineties and it turns out, is that there are bats fruit, bats that have this virus. The bats are fine, but sometimes they flying into horse stalls and the horses get infected. These are in australia was initially race, horses which are very expensive right, the horses got infected and they died and the humans who would take care of them would die also so now they immunized the horses to prevent the war, the save the horses, probably that's the motivation cause. These horses are hundreds thousands of dollars right. Then the people don't get sick, because The horses don't get together. You don't wanna immunize all the people, because it's too rare, but that I called one world health approach, which means everything's connected on the planet and we have think of everything in the grander scheme? Not just us, Secondly, we know some things along the trajectory that allow us to take exactly so, I think so living beings and in the arabian peninsula.

They have emerged corona virus issue every month there, a couple of cases where a camel will infect a human and the human can get very sick respire to her disease. Very, very much like kovac and so camels are very common there. Their used erased their use, this pets, their eaten. So there's a lot of human camel contact, but the number of cases the rare were to a month. So you want to immunize all the humans. So the idea, would be to immunize the camels, so I like it so ok so evil babies born also deserve famously deadly one right. What is it dick as a matter of fifty sixty percent of its hippy? Fifty to ninety by that's in africa, where the health care is in great. What we saw when I want a new cases of Ebola came to the: u s where we could take care of it. We needed to care. We had fancy hospitals and so forth, and now we have a vaccine, so

we can and the vaccine is really good, but there many governments in africa who letter suspicious of thus in they don't want to use our vaccine, so they said, there's a vaccine for a bowler here is him and the effectiveness and safety of it to how much is understood. So this is difficult because there is now- a lot of Ebola right, it's not a continuous and I think, they're sporadic outbreaks here and there a few thousand people most at risk. It's usually a few hundred and the biggest ever in fact Why we didn't for years have any bola vaccine? The? U S, military, together with canada, developed any Ebola vaccine for service people right there. wanted to say well we're sending people into these Ebola areas. We want a vaccine for them, so they had developed it through all the preclinical which means before it goes into people.

And that stop, because there is no money to do a phase one in a face to face three. In fact, for face two and three need to have infections going on because you're looking at how well the vaccine prevents infections right. So then there was a west african outbreak in twenty fifteen, twenty thirteen, twenty fifty, the moon cases every twenty five thousand, so they got the test, the vaccine it, but they only put it in a few thousand people. It's not like it's been in. Hundreds of thousands of people like the covert vaccines has been so it's it looks like it. It has high efficacy, but we'd like to have more data side effects may be, are not so great. Did there a couple of different available very. Some have been tested more than others. I would say this would probably not be widely accepted in the? U s, but then There would be something of a fifty percent deadly this of a virus. I think, if you are,

In fact, many physicians work in countries that have Well, it's a they give accident because they understand the choice yeah. I it's always about the joyous so So then it is one more thing to answer the interesting. What were some of the viruses? You really fascinated by There are a number of viruses that have clearly been shown author host behaviour and that's how they spread. I think those are fascinating, for example, there are some viruses of plants that are spread by a fits in the eighth. It bites the plant there. iris reproduces in the plant in it somehow engineers to plant, to give off volatile organics to attract more aids, which was spread the virus. Isn't that amazing yeah

that's all knowing the aviator sheltering, because some other virus infecting the plan cells gives off these organic and interact aprons and, furthermore, somehow the winner if it bites, it tastes horrible, so they immediately leave with a virus. They just picked up and go to another plant to spread it so their attracted and then repulsed. At the same time we see on anthropomorphized like a strategy there taking on some how this work, though it worked out this way it just evolve, and you know evolution is sometimes hard to trace right like damp d, when famously said, he could never figure out how and I evolved from a single cell right, but it did the more complicated complex that the holistic organism is that the virus invades the less able it is to control that organism right. I wonder if there's viruses that can control human behavior and you know to induce

more spread of the virus. Well, I don't see why not there's none of humans ass opposed to like evolve through what was it? We can do the experiment, the tests, that right we have to observe in that's always hard when your observing cause they're, so many things that can confound but you ll get change human behavior, I mean there's somebody thing that impinge on our behavior, but yet yeah. I think it's possible, I think its highly possible if it does it in a plans? Why not changed some other organisms behavior? I think it's way with those That's not me, they're lots of examples of those that are fascinating and how they work. People are trying to figure out, but there's not a lot of money to work on. You know insect and plant viruses unless you go to the u s da, so they don't get a lot of work moving forward. What is there I understand some of those viruses is that transferable to human viruses, that an understanding I think some of it could be sure. I think the general principles, for example. How,

How does the virus cause vaults organics to be made must be running on some genes and new could learn principles from that. How about a virus might do that you're? I think everything is broadly applicable to sit so to say: it's not useful to study viruses of insects and plants is just wrong because in science we probably know this may be in your field. It, the same. If your curious, you gonna run into interesting things that you never planned on right as people like you concur, Besides, why do we want to go on mars why they colonise mars? While it is a way When I go to the moon, the there It is when you do really difficult things. Yeah near like all these inventions along the created is kind of fascinating. How basically just pick up pick a thing that everyone can agree, is kind of cool and is really hard and that and then you have lake thousands of an

I have nothing to do with a thing, but right, I think you should let curious sides is just Although what they're interested in and, to a certain extent, you can't you know in science- say we have translational research where we say ok here, some money go cure cancer, diabetes or heart disease. Whatever right and that's fine, but that often doesn't work out very well. What works better is to say here you have a good lab. You have good track record here. Some money knew something and that's where pcr crisper recombinant dna, all that stuff, which has made the field explode. That's all came from not from people saying I want a cure. Genetic diseases. by jean editing. But by saying what are these repeated things in the spectrum? Doing gasket big fuss off go question. so there's this deadly viruses than another it transmissible Ebola rabies and then

these last televised there very transmissible I like covered agus car borderline, but wise in their super transmissible super deadly viruses. I think of you Compare the sars one in two. You get is somewhat of an answer right. Sars one was more deadly. In fact, over half of the time when people were infected, they ended up in the hospital because they were that sick and then the peak of virus shedding from them happened. Long after they went in the hospital, so it's easy to contain. The infection when you're in a hospital right there was not much pre symptomatic or asymptomatic, shedding with sore one and shutting means you yearn for EU, become infectious, so it and have respiratory version. You inhale the droplets with viruses. They they report

senor upper respiratory tract, what we call the nasal pharynx right knows and going back to that little cavity, just above your mouth severity, this is really well and then, as you talk and sneezing curfew, expel droplets and in those areas by other people, and then they reproduce and for sars two. We now know there's a lot of reproduction just before you feel anything if at all, so there's a lot of shedding and transmission before you get symptomatic. Has many people don't ever get symptomatic right? So they say really easily. So that explains why some viruses can transmit a lot better than others, and if one it happens to knock well, then you never going to transmit you're in the hospital like sores one, but why can't you have both? Why can't you just wait? Awhile before not job well, and I feel really kills. If that's dead is a philosophical question right because we could talk about, We have observed that I mean one. One issue is that

if you were, if you're killed do quickly by highly lethal virus. You're not going to transmitted very well and I saw can kill you quite rapidly. and most of the transmission occurs when people. Being cared for at home or in hospitals. The doctors and nurses get viruses, but people walking around yet I walk around when you have Ebola bolder you're too sick. You have black bloody diarrhoea, your vomiting, your theory bootblue coming from your skin and mucous membrane- how walkin around and I'm going to party. So I think that's part of it that if, if the infection is too lethal, you're simply not a good transmitter I think transmission is probably one of the most powerful selection forces for viruses because of ours, always

They have find a new host if it doesn't it's a start up that fails right if it doesn't find a new host, it's gone, so anything that makes the virus transmit better is gonna help it, and if then you being less lethal is part of that. That works too. So there's a strong selection pressure again being lethal. I think there's a strong selection preferred pressure, is being lethal and being more transmissible. Those two seem to work. Opposite ways and how we do have a lot of data support. This is kind of a thought experiment, but there is one Experiment done in Australia many years ago, if you know this, but the eighteen hundreds The hunters in australia imported a rabbit from europe, so they could hunt it as the native rabbit in Austria was too fast for them. They couldn't shoot them, so they were- in this european rabbit and think they reproduce static control within it.

couple are everywhere millions of bits in all the watering holes, and now they had a problem, they decided to use a virus to get rid of these excess rabbits and they use the virus. A pox virus called mix alma virus, which is a natural virus of a different kind of rabbit, but for these european rabbits who was quite lethal and it spread by mosquitos, so they said, ok, let's go release this virus and the first year. Ninety nine point: two percent of the rabbit were killed, but that point eight percent that were left had some form of resistance, they word variants, you know every organism not just viruses makes mutants and there were some variants of the rabbits that could survive infection and then, in subsequent years the virus became less lethal and then the mosquitoes had a better shot of transmitting it from one rabbit to another. Is the rapid lived longer? That's the selection panel

probably in so in the end of the rabbits lived on the virus. Was there at evolve to be more transmissible unless we thought That is amazing that only on aid as amazing, it is. It is if you take the time to look at it and see what's happened. It is gazing. It was a humbling that it just makes you realize. Humans are just a small part of the picture, of course and were wrecking it. Aren't we well, I mean That is not really any viruses wrecking in some ways, partners who normally wrecking anything. It's all part of it. But you know when the ways the human exist encourages viruses, to infect us right when we were hunter gatherers, living a ban of a hundred people very few viruses because was hard for the virus ago for one ban to another and perhaps a hug. there was one of these humans, we get an animal and bring a virus at the camp in some people would die, but it would never spread to another day.

when we started to congregate in cities we figured out agriculture and so forth, and how to her if the then we could get bigger and bigger populations and the viruses went crazy and they from animals to us, so measles went from cows to humans. When you, learn to domesticate cows and and started gathering in big cities, but now that humans are able to communicate and travel glow, de the virus has become more and more dangerous, transmissible, thereby if you Earth is an organism, thereby pushing. You must be more innovative, create alpha awful two and three and four and five creep their systems and eventually this rock as they keep flying from earth and eventually the virus is becoming per dangers and threatening all of human civilization will force it to become a multi planter. Species has organisers, thurston expanding,

Setting as a feature not a bug where I think that we have our early, probably them most of the work we are studying viruses, since nineteen hundred right most of their time was because of diseases they first, the first viruses discovered: yellow fever, virus pox pole virus influence the virus. Those we're all, because people got sick and they said look this virus that associated with it, and so we got good at learning, to take care of these infections, making vaccines and so forth over the years and is only in the last twenty years that we recognise that there are more viruses out that are far more interesting, perhaps but we ve learned how to deal with the bad ones for sure so talked about what is a virus we talked about. Some of the most days listen and deadly viruses. Can we men and talk about covered nineteen

virus sure I know your preferred name as but when they feel it ain't right. The viruses sars covey too, which is hard, slog right and then covered nineteen the disease So you could see the virus of covert nineteen. That's fine devise a community, but for the purposes of this conversation every once in a while, you say covert fight problem or what what is this virus farmer know how many ways we can talk about it. I think, from a basic structural like the the vary in structure biological structure perspective. What is it? What are it's variance? Can you describe the basics and recording characteristics to the virus? Some viruses are classified by humans. just to make it easier to keep track of funding. So this is a corona virus which is because when they were first discovered

I think the first ones were animal corona viruses. They looked at them in the electron microscope and it looked like the solar corona and that's all there is to it, and I have to say that early in the outbreak, the the place with the highest Sarah positivity in the u s, for while sixty eight percent was a working class neighborhood in new york city called corona. Can you can you beat that right? That's crazy, sniff, so garonne viruses they have membranes ray. We talked about members have spike proteins in the membrane, so they can attach to cells inside they have r and- and they are or the viruses with the longest rna that we know of note. None other comes close for some reason: they're able to maintain thirty thousand saucers kogi cov to earn a thirty thousand based. of irony in some of the other car owners or even longer. Forty thousand. This is a fair koran us

our family viruses. That included, though, were what the one you ass before version. One sister coffee one year of you won- and I guess other ones is over. The first refers to of them in animals. Lot of animals, pigs in cows and horses have corona viruses and then in the sixtys we discovered a couple of human corona, is that your coast colds very mild cold that you wouldn't even think twice about right and then suddenly in twenty two thousand and three there's this outbreak of severe respiratory disease in in china. And you know they it started in november and he didn't tell the world until february, and that was really bad because it was already spreading by the time they told people about it. But this went to may twenty nine different countries. Only eight thousand people were infected

stopped, and that was the first time we saw an epidemic corona virus in it, but they did afterwards, as they said. Okay It looks like it came from the meat markets have live meat markets in gwan, zoo in the south of china, where you can go and pick out, an animal and the guy will slaughtered. For you and give it to you and then, of course, his blood everywhere and that's how they got infected and they figured out that is this animal called a palm civet that was the source of our the palm are shipped in from the countryside, and they the palms of it somehow in the countryside, gotta from a bat. So they went looking in case. in the countryside. They found in one cave the viruses that could make up sars one at that. two thousand and twelve that would save, took about five eight years after that outbreak. So that was the first hint that boy Let's have corona viruses, they can affect people and cause problems right and after

we should have been ready so deny or at developing vaccines that yes and so some people started. Making vaccines are tested them in in mice, but they never got into people, and some people started working on antiviral drugs. Nothing ever came them because the industry there's no there's no disease It's gone. Why should we make vaccines and drugs in an age in the? U s, you submit a grant and they said is too risky. There's no! No! This virus around, so people really short sighted, because I always say could have had antivirals for this absolutely yeah for sure no question, in fact, one. The one in viral. That's in phase face three school manu peer review is the only one that you can take orally to pill. It looks really good that was developed five years ago, but never taken into humans. It could have been ready, so we'll drop the ball,

and then the next decade, twenty twelve merce corona virus comes It comes up in the arabian peninsula. This comes from camels and infects people, but probably the camels got it from bats originally some time ago, but that never transmits first to pursue very rarely every new little outbreak as a new infections from a camel. So that was Many twelve and now here we are twenty nineteen, a new outbreak of respiratory disease in china, and this one really goes all over the world. We are sars, one could not it's a corona virus. Now it's different enough. from sars one that it has very different properties closer. It still has a membrane has a very long. our nay in the mail and then its third. Despite protein, the truth, what are the things that are what are the little the unique things that make it that much more effective and make it cause a pandemic.

Cover them millions of people as opposed to sars one. Well, the genome is twenty percent different from sars one. And, in those bases, there's some. There are things that make it different from sars when it binds the same receptor. Eighty two on the cell surface, though that's remarkable, has allowed the same proteins. They look symbol, like if you look at the structure of the spikes they look similar, but enough amino acid differences to to make the buyer and what it is we don't know, because Hetty figure that out. You need this daddy animals, because you can't in fact people ended, the animal models aren't great force, will you figure that out, as you figure out, how those differences? What functional I call the difference in the amino acids lead to functional difference of the virus is a great howard attach it breaks. The cell was actually how the hell you figure out, why? I guess Models

life and unita foresees an animal of some kind to. In fact right. You can use mice, people of use, ferrets guinea pigs, non human primates. all of the above and non human primates are very expensive so that many people do that, and then you can put the virus in the response to retract, but in fact now them get sick. Like people do you know many people with with cove and get a mild disease, but twenty percent get a very severe. Longer lasting disease and they can die from it right. No animal does that yet so we have no insight into what's controlling it, but if you just one look at the very first part of infection and the shadow. in the transmission, you can do it in any one of several animal models. Ferrets are really good for transmission. They ten they have nasal structures like humans in they think you could put them in cages next to each other and they'll transmit the virus really nicely. So you can study that, but the other thing, that's him,

and that we should mention, is had manipulate these viruses. So these are in viruses. You can't manipulate rna, we don't know how to do it, but we dna because it recombinant dna revolution that occurred in the seventies. We can change dna. Anyway, we want to change a single base. We can cut our basis. We can put other things in really easily and if I may give it a personal aspect when I went the mit is opposed stock and nineteen, seventy nine. They were both and said here's what I want you to do, that the moratorium on recombinant dna experiments on viruses has just been lifted. I, you, make a dna copy of polio and see. If you put in his cell whether they will start an infection. So okay, so I made a dna

We have polio virus, it's only seven thousand five hundred bases is much smaller than corona and took their dna, and I put it in a piece of dna from a bacteria call. The plasmoid in you can grow plants. Ms in many many bacteria- make lots of them in purify the dna really easily and I took their dna and I sequenced it because we wanted. We didn't know the genome sequence of polio at the time and it took me a year by the way, because the techniques we had were really archaic, and nowadays you could do it in fifteen minutes. So amazing and I took the dna put it at the cells and out came polio. So that's the start now, since then everybody has taken there. technique and used it for their virus. You can now do it with sars cov it till you make a dna copy of any are in a virus. You can modify it and you put it back into, thousand you give your modified virus out. So that's an important part of understanding. The properties of the virus is saying an animal

by changing the virus. You're changing a dna copier making the virus then and putting it into the end game clarifies, even an rna virus. You can take in turn into dna, yes, then we are allowed to modify it. Yes What is it what's that mapping what went on what's the process of golf monet? Dna, reverse transcription. That's rumours, Asko shrank I'll, see you actually going through the process. The reverse transcription to do this. Yes, member david bolts, war inherit, yes, has discovered this ends, I'm in the seventies, They got the nobel prize for that and when I went to Davis lab at mit, he had the enzyme in the freezer. He said here. Take this and make dna copy of Paul yeah. I didn't make the connection that you can use that kind of thing for an r and a virus, and so that's and a modifier see advising virus already exists is dna, so you can modify the knees, but for aren't you, viruses, it was difficult, and so then, from that point on for influence,

every other are any viruses, corona viruses, people may dna copies and that's what they used to modifying and ask questions. about what things are doing with this gene doing what We take it out what happened to you. The same thing was covered is works on a and then of course, in effect, in january, twenty twenty, as soon as the genome sequence was released from china, the labs all over were synthesizing. This thirty thousand base dna men getting work. What you figure out without infecting anything just stop turning into what virtuous go from turning into dna modifying stuff and then putting into yourself lucky figure out from that. Well, you could you can cut out a gene. You see some genes in the secret. I don't know what these genes do. Listen carry them out and then you could cut him out of the dna. You put the dna and cells, and maybe you get viruses and you go out the clear

that genes are needed for the virus to reproduce at least in cells. Right. maybe you take the genome and you never get anywhere. So it's lethal businesses magic ways of doing this. The people had of automated absolutely and we made a promise sars- the covert viruses, its thirty thousand, based on a lot of stuff there, and what makes it more difficult is that you have to it's been classified as a dsl three agent biosafety level three, and so not everyone has a lab. That's capable of doing that so limits the number of people who can do experiments in some. We were lucky to have a few in new york city, but not of places. So you cannot work, with a virus just out on the bench like we do with many other viruses. You have to wear a suit in it have to have special procedures and containment and so forth. So it makes it difficult to do basic experiments on the virus, but

no. It's a pandemic. There's a lot of money, there's a lot of incentive to work on it harder. So they know so you don't need to work on a virus. You can take bits of in work, you could take say just despite great and say: can we make a vaccine with justice by canada? Doesn't require be a cell three? So yes, so like building vaccine required I need to figure out how or antiviral drugs how to attack various structural parts of the virus and the functional parts of the virus. Right. You have to decide on a target they're, like I'm gonna make an antiviral. What am I going to target in the virus and the few things that make more sense than Usually we like the target enzymes and with your member, any your biochemistry but enzymes catalytic. You don't need a lot of them to do a lot of things. So they're, typically in low concentrations in in a virus infected cell, so it's easier to inhibit them with a drug and the the coronas have couple of enzymes that we can target.

So, with the youth, to figure that out ahead of time even decide what to go after and then you can look for drugs that inhibit with which you are interested in its not that hard to do. It is something beautiful about biology about the mechanisms of biology a kind of regret, falling, the computer size so much that I left that by Gee textbook on a sham and left behind, but hopefully will return to it now is that they want things. You learn even in computer science, that studying biology, and certainly neurobiology. You you get inspired here, the mechanism of incredible complies here. Works really well is very robust, is very effective efficient. It inspires you to come up with tat makes that you can engineer, and the machine says, that's the were drives a field forward when people,

improvise and come up with new technologies really make a difference, and we have it. We have a bunch, now what's the difference in the course of our family and D, the other popular famine influenza virus family is the mean if our cause you mention, we should have done a lot more in terms of vaccine development. That kind of thing for current viruses. But if I were back then from industry, ending the thing we should all be afraid of his influenza, like some strong variance out from that family. That seems like the one that will destroy youth civilization or or hurt us really badly. I dunno, if you agree with this sense, but maybe he maybe can also just clarify what to use that is the difference between the families. So it's an interesting difference. They both they both have

brains right. So then they have spike proteins embedded in them for in their different spikes. Infect the true freedom when's that there are two main ones, because the age in the annex what's inside is a but its very different rna, and here we have to explain that. so. Viruses with our in aid can have three different kinds of our nay. They can have the core plus are in they can have minus or an where they could have plus minus actually two strands as hybridized together. The plus are in a simply means that if you put that plus, are in a in a no, you know you sell, has ripest homes in it that make the proteins that you need a ride was, will immediately latch onto the plus rna and begin to make proteins.

a minus rna is not the right strand to make proteins, so it has to be copied first the plus minuses, both together, so the sars corona viruses or the. viruses have plus irony as soon as that aren't egg, it's in the cell bomb. It starts in infectious cycle, same thing with polio virus by the way which I will influenza viruses or negative stranded, so the cannot be translated when they get in the cell, so that that's tough for the virus, because, The cell actually cannot make plus rna from minus it doesn't have the enzyme to do it. So the virus has to carry it in inside the virus. Particle And then, when they might authorities in the cell, the viruses I make plus authorities in those get translated, so big difference, and then in the influenza ours is not only is it minus rna when it's in pieces it's an eight pieces, we call it said

I meant it, whereas the corona is in one long piece of irony towards the the is that they're like floating separately, and so the jeans are on separate pieces, are all packaged inside that virus particle of influenza virus but they're in pieces, and why that's important is because, if two different influenza viruses infect the same cell, the pieces as they reproduce can mix and out can come a virus with a new resort. Of pieces and that allows influenza virus to undergo extremely high frequency evolution as where we get pandemics, and we have enough pandemics is because somewhere in some animal to virus, as every a sordid and made a new virus that we hadn't seen before so see your ear you're talking about of biological characteristics, but what Am I correct in my intuition it or from the things I've heard that the efforts of

family viruses is more dangerous. I what what except more dangerous too. He was well that depends on the there. Many flavors are vintages Of influenza virus summer, dangerous and some are not right- depends on which one some, like the nineteen, oh eight apparently was was very lethal, killed a lot of people, more contemporary viruses. We had a pandemic, in two thousand and nine of influenza. Wasn't such a lethal virus? We don't no exactly why, but it didn't kill that many people transmitted pretty well as bird flu and they're all there. while deriving that one was called swine influenza Why do I started in a pig, but it had bird add rna from bird influenza viruses. These viruses are all resurgence of different viruses from pigs and birds and humans

but influenza can cause pneumonia and can kill you s. Does sars code reduce? It depends on the the viruses there is another influenza virus. That's currently circulating so right now we have it. The two thousand and nine pandemic virus at still around and then the nineteen sixty eight pandemic virus, which was the one before Two thousand and nine that one is still around two and that's more lethal and depending on this season, some seasons. The two thousand the nine virus predominates some seasons, the nineteen sixty eight and when the sixty eight is around you get more lethality. So we're living with the floods of family weapon. terminated them right. We never will never exterminator. Why? Because We sure bird in the world is infected with them in a gulls and turns and ducks in all sorts of things, but why can't we develop from vaccines that defend against? Or we could do that sure,

but that would not eliminate them from humans. Even if you had the best vaccine, you would never get rid of it and people because There would always be someone who is not vaccinated or in which the vaccine didn't work and on no, but no vaccine is a hundred percent, so white aegis contradicts yourself. He had the he said, the perfect vaccine, so inborn ever emperor, but you the yellow like. Even if you had the pervasive here, somebody I wouldn't get back said, but energized mean so, but actually was asking. How difficult is it to make vaccines like that, for it seems, It is very difficult to do that for once influenza virus. So it's really easy to make an old school vaccine, though that the way the first influenza vaccines were made as actually Jonas salk, worked on them in the forties. He just grow lots of virus and you grow up. eggs by the way chicken eggs, most literally wait with embryo needed, so they get fertile

as is a ten or twelve day embryo in it, and you put virus in it grows up and then you harvest you get about ten m of fluid and then you take that you treat with formaldehyde or formalin and it inactivates the virus was no longer infectious and you just injected into people, and that was the. Flu vaccine was made for the: u s army actually, and then it got moved over to people. we still use that old school tech today through europe, you're taking. He help me out here. Ok, so this a good time to talk about vaccines. Ok, see you talking about you taking the show virus rarely put it you grow up. Finally, putting an egg, it's grave sway, poetic then how do you make not in fact, not effective or whatever. Not infectious, not infectious is that right arm here here. So make it not infectious. You can

treated with any number of chemicals, that'll disrupt the particle, so it no longer so that that step of disrupting the particle is every specific to aid at a particular variant particle now the same collection of chemicals you can use for all kinds of an r Woosh have been used for sars. Kobe two vaccines also same technology, okay, so what are the several things asks? He called it school in re, this slightly dismissive, like people, my windows, ninety eight or something of that so is there a risk involved with it as it is difficult to produce large amounts There is also a lot of eggs is very easy for me. Do it in cells in culture, but eggs were convenient and it the forties we have cells in culture. We didn't have Do that. So we had to use something else. It's easy to do, but

process of in activating the virus with a chemical makes it not not the best vaccine you can make the flu vaccines that we have today, which are mostly based on this inactivation, is called inactivated. Virus vaccines. Also, like the kind of thing it preserves the immune system to train on nowadays it is not or is not yet ass, close to the actual virus. Yes, that's what we think. So this was probably the flu. Vaccines are just not very good. You know sixty percent efficiency at the best, which is not really good. What what is it me? What is the measure of efficiency for vaccine? Well, it how it in the general population, at preventing influence at preventing illness. Not effectually, usually don't measure infection. When we're testing.

Vaccine we just measure sickness, that's really easy to score right, even younger trial, and you say if you feel sick, give us a call So yeah I mean what's what sickness sickness is the presence of symptoms? So this is a good time to say what a symptom is a sin TIM is what you only can feel only you can feel and upset stomach or a sore throat or that source the live export, is this? A sign is something that someone could measure and is held at your infected lengthened, virus in your native pharynx or something else right signs in symptoms and so in a vaccine trial. They tell you were few have any of these symptoms. They give you a paper with the exact symptoms listed to make sure you pick him up price so for fluid, probably bs fever sore throat com you call them and then they will do a pc.

Make sure you you ve got flew in that some other virus that make similar symptoms and then they would see are you a vaccine or not maxine arm and count up older infections and see how the vaccine did basically a sofa saying because the reporting so simply was what you feel Well, yes, for, and certainly the mind has a bit you conjure up feelings, oh yes, absolutely, and so, like culturally You know. Maybe there was a time in our culture where it was look down upon two to feel sick or something like that like tough? Not of anything I thought, then you probably have very few symptoms reported absolute. And then Absalom now is like much more anna,

but perhaps you're much more likely to report symptoms as fast a cause. Then it it changes or is definitely a perception because, for you know, your symptom may be nothing to me or vice versa. Right, so when you're doing. This is a little bit of imprecise science, because in an even its cultural thing in some countries- it's something that would make us feel horrible? They wouldn't even bother reporting. Now I didn't have any symptoms, so it's a little bit imprecise in the clouds, the results. So if you can measure things, it's always better, but you start out with a symptom and if you say, if someone tells you this virus, twenty percent of the people are asymptomatic. They don't report symptoms. That number is,

probably not as a constant. It depends where you did the study. It could be different in china, vs south america, europe etc yeah avail australia. So I took two shots of the pfizer vaccine. I had zero symptoms, plow so, and I was wondering, was he but that's my feelings This is not because I thought fires waiting Ben, you have painted the injection site. No, we can't pleasant feel nothing the next day. I know nothing of tyres, exhaustion no, but see like. I have an insane sleeping schedule. I already put myself through crazy stuff. That said that maybe I was expecting something really bad like I was way and therefore didn't feel it than I, but also got allergy shots and those I was out all next day like exhausted, for some reason so that they gave me like a sense

it's okay, at least. Sometimes I can feel shitty, that's good to know sure that the vaccine it didn't, but the the question is like how much does my mind come into play. There are the expectations of symptoms, expectations of not feeling well. How does it affect the server the self new ordering a symptom? I think It's definitely a variable there, but there are certainly many people that don't feel anything to the vaccines in their some that have a whole range of things like openness and fever, etc. So, look at you talking those co development school, the egg right, What's what's what's better than that,

So then, the next generation of vaccines which arose in the fifties were what we call replication competent where the virus you take in is actually reproducing in you yeah that sounds safe and if it can be somewhat problematic, yes, as you might imagine cause you know, once you put that virus in you, you have no more control right, it's not like you have a kill switch in it, which actually would be a great idea to put in let them magneto net robots will composser. You just put something in there. If you added a drug, you would do it always guided him off right and people are thinking about that. because now our engineering viruses to treat cancer is another diseases and when we may want to put kill switches in them just to make sure they don't run away, one thinks he can deploy a drug that binds to the this this virus that would shut off in the body, something like dabbling like that yeah. That would be the idea

The engineer it in any way these were the first one was yellow fever vaccine that was made because there was a big problem and this virus and the way you do this. Back in the old day, was empirical so max. Tyler We did the elevator vaccine, he took the virus, which is a human virus right any infected. I think he used chick embryos. and he went from one area to another, just kept passing it did that hundreds of times any every ten passages he would take the virus and put it in a mouse you're a monkey, whatever his motto was and then eventually got a virus. It didn't cause any disease after two hundred in some passages and then that was tested in people and a big

the l, a fear of action that we use today. It me selected for mutations that made the virus not cause disease, but still make an immune response, so those are called replication competent. We now have the polio vaccine, It was developed in the fifties after the yellow fever than we had measles mumps rubella. Those are all replication. Competent vaccines and you mentioned is that that is a good idea. There, all safe vaccines, the only one That has had an issue is the polio, replication competent vaccine, which will even vaccine or oral polio. Airs vaccine, because the eu take it orally sit a wonderful because you don't have to inject it. This is the perfect delivery.

You know either international fur respiratory virus or orally for polio goes into intestines it reproduces and it gives you wonderful protection against polio. However, you do she had virus out. and the virus is no longer a vaccine. Its reverted genetically in your intestine seeking affect others, you take that virus it and put it into an animal and give it polio. In effect, the parents of some kids in the sixtys and seventys who were immunized got pet without polio from the vaccine. The rate was about one in one and a half million. cases of polio, siskel vaccine associated pollyanna always argue that we may not have pick the right vaccine. There was a big fight in the u s and other countries when the inactivated polio and the and the infectious polio vaccine, which we should be using because we found out that the info,

Just vaccine actually caused polio and eight to ten kids a year in the? U s alone, got polio from the vaccine, which looking back, is really acceptable. In my view, although the public health community said it was to get rid of polio, so now we're we're close to eradicating polio globally, but this vaccine derive polio is a problem. So now we have to go back to the inactivated vaccine, which is too because it's injected so so against the basic high level. How vaccines work principle is You want to deploy something in the body that is close to the actual virus as possible, It doesn't do nearly as much hearts right and there's like a million. It's not a million, but there's a bunch of ways you could possibly do so. Those are two ways and now, of course, we have modern ways we can make. 'em are in a vaccines right, What are the modern ways? I did? You want to look a marker vaccine. That's that's! One of the mai lets the most modern by

before him our new vaccines. We learned that we could use viruses to deliver proteins from a virus that you want to prevent and so the apollo vaccine we took the spike of Ebola virus and put it in a different virus, and we deliver that two people and that's called a vector vaccine in some other covert vaccines. Her vectors of different, eyes it most famous or add. No virus factors carrying the spike jean into this, He explained the vacuum actually works in it. So we have we taken a virus that will in fact humans, but will not make you sick the case of add no virus? The years and years of people studying it has told us what genes you could cut out. And allow the virus to, in fact to sell but not cause any disease. So as they do selection, I

You are you: do you actually genetically modified? Yes, you modify the factory at a much more precise model. You are very precise and then you splice in that gene for the spike, and then you use that to deliver the gene and it becomes produced a protein than you make an immune response and turn the term for this modify right, so we're now using viruses at are bidding where using them as vectors, not just for vaccines. Weeping cure, mano genetic diseases. That is, if you have, if you're born with a genetic disease, deletion or mutation in a gene? A single gene, we can give you the the regular

gene back using a virus vector so but answers to we can cure cancers with vectors, wow really interest. Here, I think in ten or fifteen years most cancers will be treatable, with viruses yeah. Why cause? And not only can we put things in the vector to kill the tumor. We can target the vector to the tumor specifically and in a number of ways, and that makes it less toxic ray, doesn't infect all your other cells, but it takes time to develop a vector for particular thing cause. It requires a deep understanding, yeah. In fact, we have heard that a dozen different virus, vectors airbus studied for twenty years and those are the set of vaccine vectors that were using sown, includes add no virus. The secular stomata I despise, which has occurred I never have rabies, but doesn't make people sick Influenza virus is being used as a vector in many. Even measles, fire so well

familiar with how to modify those to be vectors and those are being used for recovered vaccines. And then, of course, we have the new, the newest issues, nucleic acid vaccines. So you ago. People said why can't we just inject dna into people? Take the spine, put in a dna and injected people tried many many different vaccines. In fact, there is there. No human licence vaccines that are dna vaccines, although there is a in west nile vaccine for horses. That's a dna based vaccine. So if you have a horse, you can if this vaccine, but no are you making clarify The dna vaccine only work for dna viruses now, work for dna aren't acres, remember for an irony virus. We can make a dna copy of it and it will still when you with their dna in a cell, it goes into the nucleus. So

its standing up? You get plenty more him vaccines you giving about it so there didn't work for human vaccines. In your many h, the aids vaccine trials, that use dna, vaccines, didn't work and then a number of years ago. People started thinking how, at r and a r and a vac seeds, and I first heard this I saw what I've worked with are in a my whole career, it's so fragile. If you look at it the wrong way, it breaks mean that's, that's being facetious right, but you have to be very careful because your hands are full of enzymes. That will degrade are an a so I thought: how could this possibly work, injecting it into summers? As an example of I was skeptical, and I was wrong, it turns out that if you modify the r in a properly and in protected in a liquid capsule

it actually works as a vaccine and people were working on his years before a covert came rather doing bear mental, am rna, vaccines and there a couple companies. They were working on it and so at the beginning of twenty twenty, they said: let's try it and I was sceptical frankly cause I just don't rna would be to label, but I was wrong. So this is as we were saying, offline, one of the great things about you is, you are able to say when you are wrong about intuitions you've had in the past, which is a beautiful thing for scientists, but in I still think it's very surprising that something like that works right yeah. I am surprised so you're just you just launching rna protective membrane here and then now one thing is surprising that the armies of lasts long enough, quite full right of in a structure button the other thing is

it. Does it work that that that's a good, training ground forum for the immune system, because the that. Is that obvious, though, that I don't think I don't think is obvious to most people and it's worth going into, because it's really interesting, I mean first of all, they they wrap the r irony a in in fats in liquid membrane. It's right in the that particular formulation. They test for years to make sure it's stable. You know it lasts a long time after it's injected into two companies that make the current, covered vaccines right, modern adviser they have different lipid formulations to get the same. So that's a real part of it and it's not simple. There are quite a few different lipids that they put in

to this coding and they test to see how long they protect the r and a after it's injected say into a mouse as long as the last and the way it works is these apparently these liquid nanopores. They get injected into your muscle, they bump into cells, and they get taken up so limpid fat is sticky its greasy, we like to say, and so your memory yourselves are covered with a greasy membrane also so, when these liquid nanoparticles bump into them, they stick and they eventually get taken up, and they they figure this out at the beginning. If we put our in a in a liquid nanoparticle, will it get taken up into a cell and the answer was yes who's, just let's try it and it worked says the basically expert it's not like some deep understanding of biology, experimentally speaking, it just seems to work while they had some that lipids would target this to a cell membrane

And remember: there's no there's no receptor involved, like the virus, has a specific protein that attaches to a receptor, but it's not efficient enough to just bump around and get into a sound that's what these things are doing and they probably optimize the lipitor to to get more efficient uptake, but it's not as efficient as a virus would be to get her to us. You have no specific, I mean, which is why it's surprising that you can crack into the safe with with a hammer. Bird were all with some fat and mean that that's that's kind of surprises, kind of amazing that that it works, but so many try to talk about this so one of the hesitancy around vaccines obeyed. there aren't any new technology is the fact that a modern aid is in you. idea and is

idea, was shrouded in some scepticism. As you said, by is the scientific community is a site. It's it's a coolness technology, surprising that works. What's your intuition, I think one, waiter processes on try to play devils, advocate and say: both sides with one side is why your intuition says: that's safe for humans and what arguments can you see steel man, argument wise unsafe for humans or not unsafe for humans, but the hazardous It has taken up. A marker vaccine is justified, so many people are afraid because its new technology and they feel it hasn't, been tested in theory. What could go wrong is. Is the nice thing about

m rna is that it doesn't last forever, as opposed to dna, which doesn't last for ever, but it can last a lot longer and it could even go into your dna right. So I'm has. This. Has a shorter lifetime maybe days after its injected into arm that it's gone. So that's a good thing, because it's not gonna be around forever. So that would say okay, so it sticking around fear lifetimes, not happening, but what else could happen? Well, the let's see the protein that's made. Could that be an issue and again proteins? Don't last forever they have a finite longevity in the body and this one also less, perhaps it at the best a few weeks that this approach that's made after the thorny gets into the sa ne after the deliberate nanoparticles taken up into his

in the Mrm a is translated and you get protein and is also a question of sight. Interrupt knows where, where body said because it's not well targeted or other of the supposed targeted, but he can go through. The body has won right concerns injected deep into your deltoid muscle right here, shoulder and the idea is not to put it in a blood vessel. Otherwise, it would then for sure violate everywhere. So they go deep in a blood vessel and it's it's locally injected and they did before this, even when the people they did experiments in I swear, they gave them a thousand times higher concentrations and they would ever give to people and when you do that, I can go everywhere. Basically, you can find this, these nanoparticles in every tissue of the mouse, but that's at a thousandfold higher concentration right. So

I think at the levels that we're using and people most of it's staying in the muscle but sure small small amounts go elsewhere. Ama is, could there be a lot of harm caused if he goes elsewhere in law, like let's say ridiculously high quantities, and I'm trying to stand what is the damage that can be done from an r ne just floating about, so they iron itself is not gonna, be a promise. The protein that is approaching encoded in it writes, as is, and as a viral are in a which has no sequence in us. So, there's nothing that it could do it's the protein that I would say you you could ask. What is that going to do and the one property we know about. The spike is that it can cause fusion of cells, That's how the virus gets in the beginning spike attaches to the cell by this aid to receptor

and it causes the virus and the cell to fuse so the rna gets out of the particle basalt wake. I am a bit confused, With this amar, nay vaccine with lipids and rna, there's no spike. The emperor, nay codes for the spike o the emma dakota, so it creates the spike, creates a spike, and so that spike could cause fusion of cells. Yes, except they modified the spike. So it wouldn't got a maid to amino acid, changes in the spikes. Her would not future they understand enough, which amino acids are responsible for the fusion right, interesting missus, Sutton my right now is not could cause fusion. So that's not an issue school. The profuse, the stabilized spike and call the the spike when it binds ace to that, that top falls off and the spike in that part of the spike that causes fusion is now exposed, and that doesn't happen in this ammo.

the vaccine. So those are the things that could have happened, but I think they're ruled out by what we have to, but there's no better tests than putting it into people write and doing phase one face too and face three and in increasing numbers of people in asking. What do we see? Who is? Do we have any concerns? And so now it's been in men millions of people and we don't see most of the effects you see in a vaccine. You seen the first couple of months things like them. I owe cardenas with some of the vaccines, the clotting issues with the us santa vaccine, gamba ray you see those relatively quickly and we ve seen small numbers of those occur but term other things we haven't seen- and you know you you never say, never,

right right, so the immediacy fascinating right, it's like I drink a puts splendor, coffee and has. Supposedly no calories but tastefully good. And I this despite like rumours and blogs and so on. I have not seen good medical evidence that is harmful to both sides in taste too good. some and dig you like, there's gotta, be long term consequences, but is very difficult to understand what the long term consequences are. Make that an end there's this kind of, like distant fear or anxiety about it, like this thing, tastes too good, too good to be true, gotta be there's no relaunch of this world it. This is the kind of fear and people have about the long term effects of the vaccine that you mentioned, that there

some intuition about near term effects that you want to, ah ah remove like the diffusion of souls and all those kinds of things, but they think okay, this travel to other cells in the body is charles to neurons or that kind of stuff, and then what kind of effect they have long term has yet to be discovered. What do you make Me for this vaccine, but in general and science about making stay it's about long term negative effects is at something these heavy on you is as something in kind of escape through just large scale, experimental, in which human with animals and humans? But if you really, if you can about long term, and you have to do a long term experimenter I and Do you not see something for fifty sixty years? So if someone, as you there are no long term effects of the covert vaccines they. They can't say that. Cause haven't done along experiment. Right is always the possibility, but

if the way it it's always there's no free lunch right is always a risk benefit. Calculation you have to make you can have. The study was fifty years in and then decide, but I guess what you're doing easy judge who said I forget with which one with polio rabies. I forget, but your weighing the side effects are we the vaccine versus the effects of the virus and like both of them, you dont, know long term effects. but you are building up intuition as you study, which what are the now from effects there a huge number of people like that have like, I want to say, exe, examine like the word, but people studied it long enough to where they build up intuition. They don't

for sure is basic size being done as basic studies. We start to build up an intuition of what might be a problem down the line and what is not biologically speaking, and so, given that map is than considering the virus dishes to be a lot of evidence for covered having negative effects on all aspects of the body, not just even respiratory he's kind of interesting russia, the cognitive stuff, yes, terrifying guise of systems? If yes and then use look at the centre of the vaccine- and there seems to be less of that but of course you dont know if, as some kind of dormant that just going to you won't know it's you have to make a judgment in for a lot of people. They can't right. You don't have the tools make the judge. I totally understand that and we have. We have let people down a few times in medicine,

and I know two very specific examples. The first polio vaccine ever made the sock vaccine was released, the nineteen fifty five immediately within months few hundred cases of paralysis and kids who got it because it was not properly inactivated. Now you have to understand. Parents were dying for polio vaccine because kids were getting paralyzed every summer the thirty thousand kids a year- and so they went and took it- they took the word of the medical staff. Were there was safe and it wasn't big. Let down never gonna forget something, although I think a lot of people today. Don't don't are unaware of that. I think that was a big problem. That's everlasting, then the attenuated vaccines that we talked about the infectious causing polio. Yet parents continued to bring their

kids to be vaccine because they were said. This is the right thing to do and I have to say I was involved in several lawsuits where parents of a kid who got paralyzed from the polio, I decided to sue the manufacturer and get some some money for their for their kid, and so they got mad and I think you could not. The the first issue could have been prevented could have been prevented by an ad. Debating it properly, I think the company just did the wrong thing. The second we had evidence for and we should probably have not used at vaccine any longer. I think that destroys public confidence but those are not longer minority of cases. This minority, this a very rare event, yeah, but nevertheless sizes an institution didn't.

Make corrections in that case, no, they didn't. So what do you make? Of that? I mean it's very unfortunate. Those few things can destroy trust, but I don't think that last two today, I think today is a different era. Right, yeah and most people don't know about those stories already tell them to you, because that What could happen? I think it could happen today and if you look at the history of the the polio vaccine, the? U S, public health service wanted kids to be vaccinated, so they did things that probably weren't correct to get the vaccine back on line right, but they they did it and they. The true. So where did it that the question is what do we do today? So I can look at who, as we said I can look at what might happen and I can make reasonable, incisions about the likelihood of them happening, and I can also say I don't want to get

it of any kind, because I've seen help nasty, it can be an I decide. I'm take the risk of whatever small, of a long term effect on you to take the risk. My family take took the risk and many other people did valve of vaccine of getting vaccinated because I think, is very small, but I stand where people can make that decision in that begs the question: what would they need to make a decision? So if you are concerned about an effect in forty years. We're not going no for forty years. Yes, I think if I were to speak as I speak, the talk to mecca gender fly de jure organ in his pockets. Yesterday I talked him all the time, but this I think that concern is less about the long term effects like on paper is more about, though the is it a gun.

People like Anthony found, she and people at the top are simply misrepresenting the data or like are are not actually being transparent, not collecting data price. really not reporting on the data properly not being transparent, not representing the uncertainties. Not. Are openly saying they were wrong. Two months ago, like in a way, that's not like dramatic but revealing the basic process of science. When you have to do your best under uncertainty just also just being enough antics, there's there's a sense especially with the younger generation. Now there's a certain way and the internet like the internet, could smell bullshit much than previous jan shoes and sunday they see there's a kind of enough anticipate that comes with being like representing authority. I'm a scientist. I am an expert ever p,

de I have for decades a working there more. Everyone should listen to me sad and somehow, that maps to this feeling of what were they hiding if their speaking from authority, like If everyone is in agreement like this, I mean They all have emails between each other said we're gonna tell this. This is the message we can tell the public, then what is the truth? The actual maybe there's a much bigger uncertainty. Maybe there's a dead people in the basement that their hiding from from bad, am rna vaccine experiments, maybe there and then, and then that there, the conspiracy theory starting row, naturally, when there's this kind of mistrust of the that says less about kind of like a deep concern about long term effects its concern about long term effects. If we find out

that there is some secret stuff that were not being told it all london that, though, what what the hell am. I. Put the blame not on the data but basically on the leaders and the can be communicated the science at the top. But to that I would say all the data, as far as I know, are made public. So you can dive into it, and I know a lot of people ask me questions, and I should say to right here in the data- and I know a lot of people can't do that to can't dive into it, but that's one solution, people who are able it's now you could yeah well, maybe they ve left data out. Will then not even I can help because their hiding it for me too, and I think that's highly unlikely, I think, for the most part the FDA requires the release of all the clinical trial data. So ok, what said this clinical trials data? That's one thing: so that's the data that we should be focusing on right is is there's a lot of different data sets here,

pre clinical data winches everything that was done in the lab before this vexing ever went into a human arm. It's all the same. culture work that we talked about a little experiments on animals. All of that is publicly accessible. Most advocates pup wished and then there's the initial drug filing, which has huge duplex of diet. You can get that and look at the submissive asking so difficult questions here, So there is there's a lot of money to be made by makers the vaccine so for these come and obviously this distressing, those folks to live down a lot of really good things in this world, but then there's the incentives are such that you want to sweep stuff under the rug. If, if you're, not one hundred percent pure in your ethics and how hard is it

for that data to be fabricated, ah manipulated like what's your intuition for the put them the preacher stuff. I think when you see when you start fabricating, then You get. Inconsistency is richer, pretty easy to pick up when you saw them up some large scale things of this nature it because, then you can look through the a very you gonna I mean it will require looking very carefully, but you will see inconsistencies from one trial to another and that my ring a bell that something has been done. If they think the moon lending thing I ever is sometimes like going to the moon is easier than faking I do in the inner says it may be, is may be suited to large scale trial and get an effective vaccine versus faking. But you know what you brought up the for profit issue. I think that, it's always been. In addition, I have always felt that have

your health depend on for profit industry not be the best solution. and I dont know how to do it. People tell me I'm a dreamer that thinking that in all medicines could be non. Profit also think that the world, should have one health system that takes care of everyone right, because there are some countries, it can't and other countries have an excess like us. So I wish We could do that without argument is the speed at which the vaccines for cover they were produced would never happen in a non. Of its system would never happen and a non capitalist system both I could set up a vaccine production institute in the: u S, that would get the vaccines done, because you just need to put money into it. That's what made these vaccines. Get done money. They poured billions of dollars and they get it done quickly. But if I set up

profit is due to vaccines throughout the eu as staffed with really talented people. Pay em well, keep them motivated. You get your vaccine, let us do everything with capitalism. Is that the selection of who to hire a good whittling say good people yeah, the capitals as a machine that sort of fires- people who are not good and civilised people- are good. coming from the soviet union. The dream if communism is is similar to what you're saying broadly defined is certainly doesn't work in the broads, the question whether it works in the healthcare or the space. You know that there is some aspect to the machine of capitalism being the most effective way to select for good people and to effectively produce the thing, and but

of course alive. We would argue the current. Even the curve of care is not without regulations there. Some some weird mix where there's a lot of opportunities for inefficiencies, there's a lot of up for four bureaucracies. You you have like the worst of vine worrisome. Can't there be some intermediate there, works, because I mean the the the other issue that we have mentioned is that politics gets thrown into this and that and that really messes up, and it should never be mixed with healthcare, but as it is because a lot of funding comes from the government. So that's another confounding factor, but I I I really think I could make a a vaccine institute that if someone didn't do well I'd fire them no, it is not going to stay. If you can't do your job and do it while you don't give them incentives, but it doesn't have to be the two extremes I think it has. There has to be a salute. Should that people dont have this mistrust for a cat accompany making huge profits off of a drug. But you know what is funny

seems that vaccines in anti virals bear the brunt of this criticism. Yet there are many other pharmaceuticals People rely on of all sorts, they don't seem to question and have issues with those in they have far more side effects than vaccines. It's strange how we're we're work picking. However, I should also say that when you know, if you have one big vex, in answer to one of the other, like sets of vaccine conspiracies, I may I would say there a little farther out into the into the wild set of ideas. But, as you know, there's one way to can control the populace is by injecting substances into them right people I mean part of that funding his promise to do with needles, verses, something you put in your mouth near, but there's something about the government, especially when, as governor mandated enjoy

action of a substance into it. Doesn't I don't care the size of its one hundred percent effective one hundred percent safe desert natural distrust of what like, even if this is effective and safe. giving the government power to do this now. Are they gonna start getting india's down the line for you know, I think that they can barely govern. I don't think they can do that. What you don't have to take on unless your federal employ you don't have to take a covert vaccine, but that's That largely has to do not largely, but there is an individualistic, ah spirit, they know to them to the american people. There's this, like you, don't get. It

my gun away from me, you not go, and I think that you know that's. That's that's something that makes a man, What it is his coming from the soviet union there's a power to sort of resisting the overreach of government as quite interesting, His I'm a believer. I hope that it is possible to have to strive towards a government that works is surely while I think at his best a gun it represents the people and functions in a similar way the year your mentioning, but that like pushed back even if it turns into conspiracy theories, sometimes think is actually healthy in the long arc of history it can be frustrating sometimes, but that mechanism of pushing back a guess power against authority can be healthy. I agree, I think it's free

it's a question of vaccines. What I have issue with is that many people put out incorrect information and I'm not sure what their motivations are, but it's very hard to fight that because then it's my word vs theirs and I'm happy to talk with people about any of their concerns. But if you start getting into the stuff that just isn't true, then we have a proper thing. A struggle with is conspiracy theories. Whatever language you want to use but sort of ideas that challenge, the mainstream quantum court narrative, give our current social media in internet, the way it operates, they can become viral much easier, there's something much more compelling about them Sure, like I, have a secret that about the way things really work that becomes viral and it's very frustrating because then you are not having a conversation.

Of a ground, the wit. You know when you are trying to present scientific ideas and in this conspiracy theories the conspiracy theories become much viral. Much fast and then you not just having a discussion on level ground. It's that that's the frustrating part this marked and even discussion can, I just say one the attic, so I need to is here to stay. So we get up to figure out how to deal with a right. But from my perspective, I was sceptical that these m rna vex that any covert vexed We would be ready within a year here. That's amazing, two plus these am I the way I look at the emigrant vexing as a scientist, its gee whiz. To me, it's amazing that it worked and I looked. I think the data are great, so I want it were a says. I

is they wanted one of the really sad things again with me too, as as the scientists or as a admire of science, and I dunno if it's politics, but one of the sad things to me about the previous year is that I I wasn't free to celebrate the incredible accomplishment of science with the vaccines. I was very skeptical as possible, develop a vaccine so quickly, So it is unfortunate that we can celebrate how amazing humans are to come up with a vaccine. Now this vaccine might have long term effects. doesn't mean. This is not incredible. Why why? Why couldn't you celebrate I guess I would love to inspire the world with amazing things. Size can do and We say something about the vaccines: they're, not listen to the size, a lotta be borne out. Size or what they hear is

oh you're, on your own publican or your Democrat and your social signalling us do some kind of signal, and I think that vaccine you're talkin about injecting something into you and maybe you're right, that. The rhetoric is like you better. Take this or your or your dumb, you know is not the right approach. I've seen exceed it's kind of interesting, both sides kind of imply that so the people who are against the vaccine are dumb for not trusting science and people who are for the vaccine are called for trusting size, the scientific, nobody wins yeah and they both cut off point like his gives. You can always is, it's a glass, half full or half empty, because you can always look at. like science, from a perspective of certain

individuals that don't represent, or perhaps in our greatest leaders are almost like political leaders. There's a lot of you know of of yesterday went on a whole rant against who I said a lot of other things by a thief algae. before I went on a rant against guess costs. Ultimately, you know, I think, He failed as a leader and I know, is very difficult to be a leader, but I still want to hold them accountable for that. As they communicate our science and as a great leader. But what do you think he'd do right and curious, so The core of the problem is the several characteristics of the way he was communicated to the public. So one is the general enough antiquity two's a thing that.

It is very hard to put into words, but there are certain ways of speaking to people that sounds like you're hiding something from them sounds like you're, fulla shit. That's A fantasy peace like it sounds like, you're, not really speaking, to the full truth of what you know and that you did some shady shit in your past you're trying to hide. So that's a way of communicating that I think the internet and people in general are becoming much better at detecting, as you said, they're good, bs detector, yet could be as detectors or then have, but contributing to that is speaking from authority, as speaking with with a with authority and confidence were neither is deserved. So first of all nobody's in authority on and this new virus I were face

in a deadly pandemic and throw in suspicion or in the early stages, is unclear. How deadly would be. It was unclear, probably still unclear, fully how it's transmitted the full dynamics, the virus, the for the full understanding of which solutions work and not how well masks of different kinds. Work how easy or difficult it is to create tests. How many months or years is gonna teach a creative, create a vaccine how well in history or currently do a quarantine methods, lockdown methods work. How do you know what are the different data mechanisms that are data collection mechanisms that their being implemented. What are the clear plans? Anita happen? What a epidemiology, that's happening. What is the uncertainty around that? and then there's the geopolitical stuff with with china? You know like what? Ah, what I you know,

personally believe, there should be much more openness about the origins of the virus, whether a leak from a lab or not think communicating the your open to these ideas is act the way to get people to trust you you're legitimately open to ideas a very unpleasant. They go against the mainstream, showing that openness is going to get people to trust you when you finally decrease the various. In your uncertainty degree answer didn't? Have we still have a lot of uncertainty, but this is the best course of action, vaccines, We'll have a lot of uncertainty around them and is a new technology, but with increasing amounts of data and here's the data sources. And like laying a mile in a very clear way of this is the best course of in that we have now. We don't know if it's the perfect course of action, but is by far the best course of action and that would have

that would come from a leader that has earned the capital of of trust from people. I mean, I think. in recent history. The worst pandemic is nineteen eighteen flu, but that's mainly because we didn't know what to do. We didn't have many tools at our disposal and those tied up with a world where one that's right, that's right! So the the leadership there I'm here I don't know what what is a lot of deaths radiance anyway? person is someone's family so to them it's a lot right, but that logic would apply that logic generally, because if a lot of people suffering and die throughout the world- and we turn turn the other way out of time and that's the story of his Saying say you all of a sudden. What bothers me, though, I mean personally, I don't Like any one dying anywhere, but especially considering what

technology were able to muster yet we still kill each other. It's just dichotomy to me yeah, but I mean this is the worst paul farmer There is great stories and you that's that's the that's the that's the burden of being in health care being a doctor. Is you have to help you can't help but help a person front of you whose hurting her, but you also are burdened by the knowledge that you helping them you spending money and effort and time on them means UNESCO, to help others, you cannot possibly elegant at the amount of time to everybody, so you're choosing which person lives and which person dies, sure and you're doing so? The reason you're helping the person in front of you because because they're in front of you and so the reason right now we care a lot about covered is because the eye of the war has turned a covered.

not seeing other all the other atrocities goin on the world and not necessarily related deaths to relieve to suffering suffering. Would you get argues worse than death? Who prolong suffer? the court of auditors dissolve these questions in the end that the fundamental question here is: are we over reacting to covered in our policies so that this is the when we turn our eye and care about this particular thing and not other things, are we dismissing the pain that business owners who've lost their businesses want to feel, and then the long talking about long, of it in the long term, effects economic effects on the millions of people that will suffer that suffer financially, but also suffer from their dreams. Being completely collapse. So a lot of people seek game, meaning from work, and if you'd away that work. There's anger that can be borne. This pain

as a what is that led to that, can lead to the rising up. Of charismatic leaders that channel their anger towards destructive things have been done throughout history, so you have the bath that, with the policies the jove uncovered and I mean are very much my main opposition to of is not on the details, but the final result, which is just observe that there is a significant decrease in trust in science as not not the institution but the various mechanisms of science, science is his boat, beautiful and powerful, and the reason why we have so many amazing things as such: a high quality of life and distrust than that. The thing we need now to get out of all the troubles were in.

Ten you getting out of the troubles were in science. The scientific process broadly defined innovation, technological innovation, scientific innovation of that distrust in that is is, is the totally the wrong thing we need, and so anybody who gets in who are causes a distress in size to me I have, you know, carries the responsibility of that and should be in because their response to me should be fired, should be, should be, or at least the openly have to carry the burden of that of having caused of that kind of level of mistrust. Now it may be unfair to place on any one individual, but you have to. Ah, I think in your pocket seven, the boat, the buck stops, the top like the leaders chair to donors. Does a clear leader here: yes, absolutely so even is not directly his fault. He asked the king

Carry the price of that. Do you think we should at this point say: okay, we have vaccines you can decide whether you take him or not. Let's move forward, maybe I can help I understand this because it seems like why's that not the resolution completely open society, the van since, at least in dinner? In the united states, as I understand are, widely available. So this is the american way you have the decision to make. If you have a conditions that make you worried to get covered and go to the hospital, then you should get vaccinated because here's the data that shows that it's much less likely for you to die If you, if you do, if you give action it, if you don't want to give vaccinated because you're worried about a long term effects of vaccine d have to, but then you suffer the consequences of that and that's it.

So I hear what I think is driving the. I think it's all about kids right, because they're gonna, back to school in the fall in many them can't be vaccinated right. So if they get in acted ass. They do have less frequency of disease, but it's not zero. They do sick and they can have long term consequences and at that age it would be a shame right and not even their choice. They can't decide to give access to not because they can have access to a so. I think that would that's what would draw. If my efforts to try and get more people, at least in schools, vaccinated but be wrong. It may not be that took kika dig into that along with others, you're, saying that there should be an effort for increased vaccinations of of kids go to school, just not for societal benefits both for the benefit of each endeavours

Kid so right now, kids under twelve right are not yet vaccinated, said correct, yeah. I think so, and it's going to be it's not going to be in time for school, opening that they get vaccinated and. And then I may? I suppose the teachers are all going to be vaccinated, makes sense for them to do that, but I'm just where the kids are gonna be true. Making it amongst them, and many states donut mask mandate in school. So I think that's what dry having the larger narrative in the? U s to protect kids It's kind of what I hear from Daniel Griffin. Increasing numbers of kids are being admitted to hospitals now, because the meat there before The major on vaccinated poppy. nation, their hanging out over the summer, and that's just going to get worse in the four and so.

Well, you could have a lot of kids with long cove. It then disabled their entire lives right so and of course, hearing from people who are vaccine hesitant. I hear exactly the kids statement, but there saying they don't want the long vaccine, the long term effects of the vaccine to effect the kids That's the of the core of this new version, which I would say is as we as I said before, you can't say never, but we do know that long cove exists We don't know for how long looked out six or eight months. We know that exists and the frequencies increase, It certainly exists in young kids and we have no, I about long vaccine effects, so I think they have to make their decision based on that, but yeah But here question is: what are we just open up, sir

So here we have these vaccines. If you want to protect yourself, I think it's mainly the school. That's driving the whole narrative, this my opinion in which direction. or to open up or to open up but to try and get their efforts at the federal level to get people vaccinated right but see how higher the risk for kids, I mean as a minor detail. Yes, it's not zero, but very low for him, but what is the numbers now seventy thousand hospitalization so far and kids visit last week. So yes, it's slow, but the polio as low polio was twenty thirty thousand kids a year paralyzed and by many Glove actually argued that dead vaccine was unnecessary. You know it wasn't a substantially less

it also paralyzes different, then hospital. So what I witnessed hospitalized mean longwood over this long covered questioned me. This is the open question. Oh yes, long covering kids rosato well, lighted, the same issues cognate! issues motor issues, respiratory g, I'd dysfunction. How long we don't know me, good and in a year as you know, there are other post acute in full. She's sequelae that we know about you, know chronic fatigue. Emmy Cfcs is thought to be a post infectious. they, which has gone for many decades now many millions of people. This could be another Another one of those so I'm just saying it might be worth, erring on the side of not letting kids, getting fasted here, but well, try to keep an open mind here and appreciate in you do the same. Of course, I.

Lean on duffy, not requiring people? vaccine, but I do think it getting vaccinated thumb. The wiser choice, looking all the different reductions before us, any vaccinated? This seems like from the data. It seems like the obvious choice frankly, but I must try to keep an open mind. Some things in the past that seemed obvious would turn out to become Iran so try to keep an open mind here. So, for example, one of the things I'd love to get your thoughts on this is anti virus. Ideas. Ideas are outside of the vaccine, so I ever met in something there. But why sign? If you others have been talking about, there's been a few studies. Some of them have been shown not to be very good studies.

but nevertheless there seems to be some promise and I want to talk to brett about this project. The topic for two reasons, one. I was really bothered by censorship of this that's a whole another topic. I I just I'm on both the. vice, says: there's a grey area. Of course the butt, I just feel like that should not have been censored from you to discuss if I ever met in looking lookin, set that aside the the thing I was bothered by the lack of open, mindedness mindedness unexplored, doing things, I've ever met and in the early days, especially when these I thought that you would take a long time. I mean it's not just over mountain. It's really seriously at a large scale, rigorously exploring the effectiveness of masks and the big one for me testing,

The fact that that wasn't explored aggressively to lead to mass manufacture like may twenty twenties as absurd anyway solves bothered by these solutions. be explored and not by now having really good ever met the studies token I talk about it, reality. I would love that after so full disclosure. My wife, worked on. I've met the network for twenty, here's. Gay soap ditches want people to know, but I didn't don't talk to her all the time about it anyway. She hasn't been at the merc for a long time. As you know, if ivermectin is a very safe drug used to treat certain parasitic infections, yes right ad. It is approved. It's amazing. You can take one dose a year and be protected against river blindness in africa and certain parts of africa a remarkably effective, and so it's quite a safe drug at the doses that are that are approved now, an early last

you're. A study was done, I believe in Australia, which showed in cells in the lab review effect, with sars covey to an impasse, I've remarked in any would inhibit the virus. Production substantially was quite clear right, but. Concentrations airy using we're rather high and could not be achieved by the ep. The this approve dosing, so you would need to do a dosing study to make sure it safe and weaken. The reason is that I ever met and binds to receptors in your brain and it can have high doses. Allow some people take high doses. Partly in they have neurological consequence. So if you needed ten times were I ever met in you'd have to make sure it would be safe and because the question of safety to write so might I think it has always been the case that it should have been properly studied, but it wasn't there alone of trials here, and there are lots of improperly control trials. Were someone would just treat some patience is a

They all did find but have no control alarm and there were some can world trials, but they are very small so right now thousand person trial is unroll, enrolling, detest and add. Randomly trolled trial, setting whether it works or not. There are still plenty of cases that you can do that, so you can ask whether in there whether there are any side effects, I think that's completely fine and if it says it works, then we should use in the meantime. I always tell people if you want to use, I remarked, and you can do it off- label it's after approved and if your physicians, I'm gonna give you this off label. I dont have any objection I don't know if it's gonna work now a friend of ours last week in new jersey gut, when he went to his local hospital in their regiment, was ram. Desi veer decks him at the zone. I reckon threaten that's what they do for every car.

the patient they just given to them automatically and dumb so he's he recovered so who to say was were not was not. I remarked in right, so I don't have any wrong ideological opposition? I just think it should be tested for what you want to use it for you and that's being done, and I think that's fine, Is it strange to you that ever met in or other things like it won't tested aggressively beginning I go from our broad scientific community aspect I can be a little bit conspiratorial and this is what people talk well with ivermectin imagined, is with vaccines, is quite a lot of money to be made with ever met, and there's not much might be made is. Is that two conspiratorial Why do we try more solutions in the beginning? Well

but all the money was put into vaccines right very little was put into anti virus. We submitted decision was made at a very high level, probably involving doktor voucher. We're gonna put twenty four billion into vaccines right. And, I think part, the reasoning is they give you years worth of protection or as an anti virus works, and you have to keep dosing and so forth, but ever make then is not trivial. In this I agree it should have been tested early on, but we had a really bad experience with hydroxide clerk, one which we can talk about two I have a mac than is very hard to synthesize most drugs. You synthesize chemically you Visor formulation formulation a synthesis synthesis and they do it. They scale it up in fight. I respect is really hard and so what they do instead is they take the culture of the bacterium that makes it and they grow up and they fermented and then they purify it and merk owns,

the bacteria a number of years ago to employees of merk, stole it and left the company, and tried to market and they were arrested and they got put in jail. So they protected very carefully. So he she can't you make it If you do it's incredibly expensive and now india is very cheap currently they use it quietly really there and I don't know how their there may. king it, maybe they ve, licensed it from work and so forth, but that's why it hasn't been tested more widely. I think this plex eastern in terms of getting a lot of it and manufacturing a lot of it. Yes, okay, so What was the other, the hydropower hydroxyl clerk when was also shown early on to inhibit viruses, cell culture, and that's it surprising, had drugs clerk when of course is used for malaria and what it does

It when you, when you sell, takes up things from the from the plaza membrane, including viruses, because through a pathway called the acidic pathway, which involves a vesicle moving through the cell and as it moves to the cell, its ph drops and that lets alot. viruses out actually in hydroxide clerk and blocks that so blocks infection with a lot of viruses. So the problem with those an early studies that were published is that they were done in kid cells in culture, where the only way the virus can get in is through the india, so an hydroxide clerk when inhibits then that's wide inhibits in kidney cells and culture, but lung cells and respiratory cells of humans, where the virus reproduces can get in two different ways you can get in. From this end, acidic pathway, which is inhabited by

Drugs equipment or it can get in at the cell surface, which is not inhibited by I drugs clerk was so when you treat patients at has no effect in the lung, because the virus can just bypass it and all the usage initially were based on that. The studies done in kidney cells in culture, so that that was just wrong scientifically incorrect. He added drove a lot of in today. Many people still think they should be taking it, but so does that not putting out color that and loss of optimism. by other similar things. But there are many other drugs to re purpose. Drugs were tried right now. which ve antivirals were tried, I think the problem with high drugs. I think I drugs clerk when influenced the ivory mechlin narrative right people thought that

The data was being hidden about high drugs clerk went so this it will. They must be doing the same thing with ever maxim, but with my drugs clerk, when it just scientifically could not work as an antiviral it. The other problem that is more broad that is important to point out is that. When you, when you have covered in you, need neither wireless usually because you can't breathe and you go in a hospital if your mildly ill. You never gonna go to your doctor and ask for an eighth of our and the problem is when you can't that's no longer a viral issue? It is now an inflammatory issue and no antiviral in the world is gonna help you. So if that's, why I'm desi veer, doesn't work very well consists mainly given intravenous lead to people who go in a hospital if you'd get I've respected in the hospital slackened. Do anything for you. Reducing virus, because by that time you have very little virus to begin with, you have an inflammatory, probably the tree in other ways, so this is

why a lot of the anti virals failed because they used too late when you need is a pill you take on that first positive test. When you have a scratchy throat, you get a pcr in fifteen minutes and positive. Take a pill boom, that's going to inhibit it, if you wait here can breathe and that's why the monoclonal even don't work if, if you're in hospital, that will cause it's too late in that, the approach now is, if you're, in a high risk group, if you're over sixty five, if you are obese or have Bees or any other co morbidity, your first of a scratchy throat positive. You get monoclonal and they might help you, but if you wait, he gonna hospital it's too late, because a viral curve drops after that first symptom. Within three days: you're you're no longer shedding enough fires to transmit drops really quickly. So

that's the reason allow these antivirals fail. Khazar attested and hospitalized patients, and we have nothing but rim, as of year. Now, unfortunately, so is the wrong approach. We should have been giving it to people who just tested positive from the start board steven for preventative and see who could do that too yeah, but I have to say the other issue is at this. Mall new pair of year is the drug in phase three. Now it's an oral Anti viral looks good if we go ahead with just one: we're gonna get resistance within a few months and it will be useless. We need to have at least two or three drugs that we can given combinations, and we know that cause that's what took care of hiv. That's what took care of each cv appetite of sea virus. It really uses the emergence of resistance. Joe got quite a bit a heat recently about mentioning a paper and a, I idea which I didn't, I dont think

that controversial, but maybe you can expand on it and the idea is that vaccines create selective pressure for a virus to mutate and for variance to form what a first of all from a biological perspective. Can you explain this process and from a societal perspective, whew supposed to do put that so, let's get the terminology right. So, as we talked about earlier, viruses are always mutating, so no vaccine or no drug makes a virus mutate, but as the wrong perspective to look at, I got out of what of what the immune responses is. Putting pressure selection pressure on the virus and if there's a one party but with the right mutation that can escape the anybody that will emerge right. So that's why!

as with influenza virus right we buy since eight every year- and there are not a lot of people to get infected, so they get natural immunity. And then the virus is incredibly varied. It mutates like crazy and is in some person somewhere. There's one variant that escapes the anna body, which has been induced either by infection or vaccination, can be both and that drives the emergence of a new variant of the next year. We need to change the vaccine, so I would say both natural infection and vaccination sure. So, act for variants. Absolutely there's no question because their inducing immunity. Now what happened? last year, was at the beginning of twenty twenty. Very few people in the world were immune as the virus first started spreading, but you can see in the sequences of those isolates from the beginning of twenty twenty. You can see,

all of the changes that are now present in the variants of concerned at very, very low frequencies, there were already there, but there was no selection for them to emerge until now amber when we now had many millions of people who would mostly been affected, but also some vaccinated, and we saw the alpha variant emerge in england, probably because of immune selection. Now the The virus that had the change that evaded the answer body had an advantage and that virus drove through the populations. So we're seeing were seen all these various or simply anti genetic selection assists, although the various them. stations that are at the core of these concord variants there were always there all along the vaccine or they infections did not create them not on creativity or selected. It's like the vaccine, wipe out a lot of the variants.

Wait and then by being me by making your body immune to them, and so, but some of them survive, yeah and and ugly, and there was another tree, that's built and it's unclear what that tree leads. To I mean it could make things much worse or better. I don't wanna know know what, with flu we, each year after year, the virus changes. We change the vaccine, we deal with it. We change it yeah there's an unending but see that's erosion, a story, if you think do you think of it we'll be with some likelihood like the flu, whereas basically variance, will never be able to arm rather get it. You know eradicated in any case ever well come up with a vaccine that may seem you two enough variants where there is not enough of them,

imaginary like room. While if you cut down the number of infections, then you reduce the diversity sure yes right. The problem is, if, let's say, you're a cynic and you are while vaccination is just selecting for various. So let's stop it, but then you're going to have infection and the it's gonna, select for variance it and there, the morally or more likely to get very sick, because we know the vaccines are really good at preventing you from dying. So that's why it still makes sense to use vaccines because they prevent you from die that's the bottom line, but can we ever make a vaccine that deals with all variants, absolutely and the reason I say that is because people who get naturally infected with source covers the developed covered. They recover. She, if you give them one vaccine dose they

make an immune response that handles all the various said around right now, all of em much better than people who have gone two doses of vaccine. For some reason, their immune response is suddenly broadened after they in fact, sean vaccination and they can handle the various that we now have so far. So that tells me we can devise a strategy to do the same thing with a vaccine that makes a really brought vaccine that I'll handle all the very you actually on the biology blog. I do not fear the author. But I am I am yes or the blog, but there is a particular posed us talking about reporting on a paper that it makes him match straw. Yes, that's what My cover writers, trudy re here, yeah, that's! It is an interesting idea that there is some, early evidence now that mixing matching vaccines one shot of pfizer, one of like modern or something that creates a much better

Immunity then does two shots, professor, I think that's worth exploring absolutely and this is relevant that what we're doing with influenza now, instead of having to vaccinate people every year, where can we devise a vaccine which you'd get once in your lifetime or maybe once every ten years. Okay. So the spike of influenza is a long protein kind of like the spike of sars coffee too. It's stuck in the virus membrane in the very tip. That's the part that changes every year, it's where the antibodies bind, but the stem doesn't change, and if you make antibodies to this them, they can also prevent. Infection is just that when people are infected or with the current vaccines and I'll make many anna bodies to that stamped but we're trying to figure out how to make those, and we think they would be broadly protective and you'd never be able to work,

More rarely be able to have a variant emerge set at the escaped it, and I We can do the same thing with with corona. to procure cassie about testing sure Surely you mustn't pcr? What kind of tests are there the antigen test? What what are your thoughts on each? Maybe this is a good play. Two are also mentioned, like viral load and. The history of the viruses it passes through body in terms of the ok what's being tested, one of those kinds of things so that the first test set were develop, were. Its pcr polymerase chain reaction, they're, basically nucleic acid amplification tests, and they were the very first ones. They stuck the swab all way up into your brain almost- and I had that done a couple of weeks ago. Oh my gosh, it really

nasty, but now they do an interior neri swab they get a little, they get a bunch of cells and so mucus, which has viruses parts of virus. Stick it in a test and then they run a reaction which, by the way, involves reverse transcript days converts the viral rna dna. And then you amplify it and you can speak specify what part of the viral or now you want to amplify. Then a machine will detect it and it can be done in fifteen it by your detecting pieces of aren't not infectious fires so were met. Viral or in a loads right and a common mistake that many people who should know better you, no fish actions and scientists of all kinds. They think that indicates how much virus you have it doesn't

it's a diagnostic of whether you have bits of r in you and, if probably means your infected, but you can't use it to shed light on. What's going on in and I'll, tell you why in a bit, but first we have to explain some other things. So until you get to about a million copies. of. Aren't I see you can measure the copy number in this test, this pcr testing, it's it's. It's a number called see tears cycle threshold, the test, the way the machine works. It goes through cycles in every cycle and amplifies what you put in, and the more cycles you need to see something. That means there's not a lot of r and there. So if you see it, if you do a test and you have a cycle threshold of thirty five you have very little- are in a new contrary. If you have a cycle threshold of ten, you have a ton of rna. You'd only took ten cycles to detect it and you can extrapolate from their number them number of copies. You have person

ample say per swap and if you don't have a million you're, not infectious you're not gonna affect anyone so the early days, no matter what see tat would have what pcr result you had. They would quarantine you and I was wrong because you're not shedding you don't need to be corn team, but wasn't thought through properly now three like fourteen days or something like that. Ninety days, which is now we know, is too long because you don't shed for that long in a normal infection. Doubts ten day should be fine So what happens? If you get infected, you don't know it. Of course, virus starts to grow very quickly and within four five days you reach a peak, of of shedding you're making a lot of rna, and you may be symptomatic your shedding, you can affect others and then you may or may not have europe symptom onset. So you shed for a couple of days before symptom onset and then within three days for days.

The viral aren't a crashes and you are no longer shedding. You are no longer transmitting. So that's the one kind of test we have. It can tell you if you're infected at the moment, but it won't tell you if you're going to be infected tomorrow right cause if you're negative. Today you could be positive tomorrow. You just might be an a different part of the incubation period right. So that's one test been the most. You can now get fifteen minute versions of them in a walk in her. Whatever fine, then their antigen tests, which looked for the proteins at the virus, is making so as its reproducing in your nose is not only making genomes, it's making proteins, these you can buy the drugstore and these would have. And great, if they had Michael commend last year had the idea that if we could make a little stick, a little piece, the paper that you would suck on, and it would tell you if your infected or not if this could cost less than a buck everybody could, tablet of data can cost less than a book by the way.

but they were never made right. My dear never mass may Actually so did his ideas to do like daily tests so daily, and then the kids going to school he's positive or she is positive. While if it's cheap enough, you just take another test cause. They have a certain error frequency. If it's positive twice you stay home and the next day you try again And this I think this would have revolutionised because of pcr tests are more expensive at the time in their take longer to do and so forth. But tat did never happened before We do have twenty dollar by next now and others that you can buy in people by them in cuba. That can still happen right, and this is a very fine thing to me, because I'm worried about variants, but I'm am also worried about future much more deadly pandemics like I know what kind of said yes covered.

Of deaths but like it could be a lot worse to and thinking what is going to be the right response for the future pandemic of its kind and It's the right response for continued number variance in some of the variants, my be deadlier or more transmissible, where we weaken the antigen tests will pick up The various is not a question. The pcr may be influenced by changes, but you can quickly and adapt I must say you know like to me all these discussions above vaccines and so on. vaccines. We got very lucky that they took so little time right and and yet to be aware, no matter what that there's hasn't seen the vaccines in this country before Amelia, That's a reality gauges be like magically saying that Monsieur I you're going to overcome that sir.

I don't think, there's any hesitancy and cheated us at home. I agree, I think, if someone, so the question is: if someone tested positive, would they stay home? That's the quite what if they're let what if their job depends on them going it I mean that's where you have to look at serve aggregate, how many people decide in a think again a lot of those in leadership, but I think a lot of them have more that I would say most people stay home. I think that I had the idea and it would have changed the whole situation for sure if it could have been made more. We talk to him last spring, I think, or summer We would have gotten around a lot of the issues that were in today, because I think people were to stay home and not transmitted, and I think it still valuable to this day in the fall. If we don't have vaccine uptake, we could just test kids every day. and get her and keep him home when their infected. It cuts it it's and we don't have it, but I think- and I might

privy to what was going on, but I think a lot of emphasis was put on Testing early on me. Another cdc develop the first one. It was flawed. They had a recall the kids I mean as if he asked they should have had one hundred companies making the tests initially right so for the future. I think what we have learned is. We need to have rapid antigen test right off the bat that's doable. We can't do it in a day like you can for pcr? Because you need to make at the bodies to the protein that you're looking for and you need to those in animals. But you can do it and weeks and I should be ready for that. Yeah bigger, I mean to me. That's obvious this. Obviously the best solution, a second to that, if we understood how masks work

Maybe let me ask you this question was put masks aside. How will do understand how code is transmitted, the those droplets of different sizes or aerosols, tiny, tiny drop ins? It seems like that is a very difficult thing to understand thoroughly. Also, it seems like it's transmitted both ways as unclear, how exactly so, how how? How much do we understand, and why is it so difficult to understand awful? It is clear that its transmitted through the air- mostly it's not touching, we thought initially be allowed a touch, but very little of that. It's through the air and when you talk mainly when you talk you, you expect a lot of droplets, where even the closest Your phone thing ears are meant to pee right you send out little sprays in those have viruses in them and the big drops fall to the ground,

and the little ones can go on her feet or more right, but the little ones also have less virus in them. So I'm not sure what were. We certainly do not know how much virus you need to be infected, but it's probably at least several thousand particles, if not more, and it could be there for most people. The tiny droplets don't have enough buyers to infect someone else, but there's one observation about this virus. It's really interesting, and that is that eighty percent of transmissions are done by twenty percent of the people of the infected people. Not every infected person. Transmits has been borne out in multiple studies in effect,

was a study at university of colorado, where they quantify the viral or in a loads, and all the swabs that had been done of students for like a six month period and most of the infectious virus, most of the r and a copies were found in, Fifteen to twenty percent of the people, had really low and they probably that probably why they don't transmit. So. those are the ones that might get by virus in the tiny droplets to be able to infect someone at a distance, and I think, that's entirely possible. Why is it hard to study you kid fluid in real life, because you don't know whose infected and if you do this, there's not a controlled environment to measure droplets and so forth. You'd have to do it in a laboratory situation. If use and animal you just don't know what the relevance of that is. Two people you'd have to use human into

challenge, experiments, and you know we. We don't do that at this point at least not for this virus. So that's why it's hard to know what's going on, so we have to make inferences from epidemiological situations we are studying. They transmission and a household where people are stuck in the same rooms together and you get an idea of what kind of droplets were involved. So that makes it much harder to hear if your leaning on epidemiological stuff, as opposed to like biophysics, is that someone like that that the Macsharry hard so very that makes it all but the day makes it really hard to then develop solution, masks to ask the question how old masks work because then To answer that question you can lean on epidemiological stuff again like looking at populations are wear masks. Was this don't wear masks as opposed to hurt heresy, saying I from engineering perspective like what kind of material and what kind of tightness by which a mount decrease,

is the viral load. That's really than the other end. But you with some extra as has been done with masks and just droplets, with no viruses them right right and you can measure if the efficiency of different mask materials at keeping those in sight. If I say that this mask stops some eighty percent of this or larger size droplet that leads to this per cent decreased mission and also on both the the generation and the the receiving

and in the giving end sure. So how will the mass protect you from others? How well do you do mass protect others from you, like all those things seem like there could be more rigorously studied. There's no doubt about it, and now is the time, because once this is over nobody's going to do it nobody's going to care narrow, but it seems like to me so tests is one thing but masks like Good mask whatever the good means, wherever that means that some level of a quality of material on your face, if it shown to actually take thoroughly shown to work well, it seems like an obvious solution to root out reopen society with. If you have, Good understanding, how are they work? Because if you dont have a good standing there's a lot of uncertainty. That's when you get, and yet people speak of majority. That's me,

again, the position of the cylinder is, of course, no data There are some data most there are mostly epidemiological and they show some effect in some countries right, but they could be way better and did. But the fact that you're not perfect than people, take advantage of and say well, look. They don't work that well so american aware, and I think, as you said, people can use it as an excuse, but even if it works so Daniel always says it. A mask will cut down transmission by fifty two sixty per and then distance will do another. Thirty percent of those numbers are made up. I mean they're not made up, but their estimates absolutely and many of them are made based on models right, we'll make this model and lets say the mask cuts down this much. What's what will be the effect on meat, yet their models and it's for the same reason?

I dont believe the transmission of air of the variants, because it's all based on statistical ma. adults as well. Not biological experiments done. I laughed so that in that sense, vaccine data is much better than masks for sure for sure. So my my problem with the mask they, which I always thought was fascinating, stop talking about it. As in a paper about masks, I start talking about it because what was started happening is mass created assholes on both sides, the people there were like in silicon valley, the friends of mine clearing masks the way they look at others who doubt is like? That's that's a whole another issue, brassiere that what understand that's happens when you don't have solid sign, understood they that now start urging you like. You are less secure, being you not only dumb but you're, just yet the almost like evil you doing, bad for society by not wearing masks and then the people and the other way

seeing you for the asshole that you're being for judging them, and rightly so there want to say a few. By now the mask and there's this division is created that those heartbreaking to me because masks like testing is wish those available early on and if understood well, it can be deployed in a mass scale and it seems like there's some historical evidence for other viruses where it does yet very well, that's correct and so, and so like the fact that this was politicized and there was a labour heartbreaking. You can find in the literature studies mostly of healthcare workers influenza, where you can actually, because you see the people every day, they can scan pull them. You can actually see what masking does in some of them show an affair and others do not, then that's the problem, that's like any trial. Sometimes if it's not big enough and then people latch onto that see, it doesn't really work.

But I think the main issue is that in january, both cdc, w h, oh said, mass. Don't work, though use em that was the kiss of death for masks. because when they then change their mind, they didn't say we screwed up. They just said where mass. If they had said, we made a mistake, we were wrong. I think more people would have worn masks, but I didn't fear and, like you said, said admitting you're wrong is like a real big part out. I think the almost the better way is not just same kind of saying, you're wrong, but In january, saying like revealing the in certain gender which we operate like she like reveal what was done with the, for the beginning of the previous century

because there's a lot of mass controversy than to went back and forth, and that was actually the source of a lot of distrust there too. So and then look at influenza. Cod is an effective with that and just revealed this work. We don't we don't know, but I would like, with some probability this

the best option we got alright currently and then, and then, in a month or two adjusted saying that you know what are like a certainty decrease a little bit. We have a better idea, like that, was a thousand an incorrect estimate, but reveal that you're struggling. It's not like this weird binary clock that goes one direction or the other you're struggling in with uncertainty and like trusting people may be criticizing the synthesizers, but I I think most people are actually intelligent, like trusting the public to be intelligent with. If you give 'em, if you have transparent and give them information in a real authentic way, like don't look like you're hiding something I think they're intelligent have to use that data to make decisions. It's the same things

Well, the testing is, if, if you put that power in the pupils as to know if they're sick or not they're, going to make an unmasked the right decision, I think it it. It saw that the masks and the testing has been a bit heartbreaking as he could spook a point, though, that most people don't seem to have an objection to testing it's a good point. Yes, and I am obviously macromedia makes that point brilliantly and still there is very little excitement around that said he was going to do it. I don't understand. I haven't spoken to him since then, so I don't know what he's working it were me, but You can't do it alone. He has to get so one of the one of the resistances f d, a doesn't like cheap things. Yeah they don't want to prove it, so that makes them a mass manufacture like a with emergency exceptions. All the

kinds of things very difficult and then there's not much money to be made on it, without that I dunno that I think there's just economic pressures against it and because so much investment was placed on the vaccines and obviously there's an incense, mechanism. There are the companies cherry lobbyists and all this is this this machine that says arguing for tests is difficult, because the thing that worked for most severe viruses in the past as vaccines. Now we have accedes why the hell would you need us? that time like why the hell dna tests when we can working vaccines, it seems, like the obvious thing to be working as vaccines from from their perspective, but It's not obvious at all to me. I think he should have both, I think, have vaccines, a good testing, and that covers you really well, because europe can have people dont get vaccinated. I arab you been paying attention to this.

the guy neighbour, wise diet, is a guy named SAM Harris, big, have good representation. I would say of of two sides of a perspective on vaccines, so from some harris's perspective, its obvious that every should give access, aided and its irresponsible do not give accede. I think you are presents a lot of people's belief in that and then bread is talks, a lot about I'm actin, but also talks about the hesitancy it towards the vaccine for four people or healthy for people who are you that kind of thing- and I think we should consider long term effects of farm the vaccine in making this calculation. What do you make about this conversation? Some of it happens on twitter, some. What happens in the space of pot guests?

Do you pay attention to this kind of thing? What's your this, what would he hope is the way to resolve this conversation? Do things healthy? Well, a conversation is always healthy, but to make definitive statements is not because it suggests you have information that you don't have so I you know we talked about long term effects. I think you need to bounce those versus long term effects of the disease, and you can make your decision. I don't think you need to tell everybody to get vaccinated. I think you need to present the case is here. We good vaccines here, the safety profile, here's the risk benefit balance and you should decide you're a smart person. You should decide now. Companies are going to do differently right companies may say you have to be vaccinated to work here. My employer columbia said: we have to be vaccinated to work in the foreign. If you want to be a student, you have to be vaccinated, so you side whether you want to go or not. But the

The idea that term you should make decision based on long term effects. There is no evidence right. So how can make a decision. We don't have evidence, whereas we do have ever sit. There are long term effects of getting covert. So I think that's a fair argument. It just makes people scared to say that but on the other hand, for some of the states and no brainer and to denigrate people for not being vaccinate. That's not the approach either, because they're gonna dig in and say I am I doing this. Could you tell me to write? I think the middle ground is to say take a bit of both and say here potential issues, and here the benefits- and this is what I would do it you have to just decide on your own I'd- leave it to them. I say deciding. If you don't want to. You know it's up to you, you don't have to get back sedated and you probably get infected at some point and maybe you'll be ok

but here's the best available data and looks like the vaccines are pretty pretty damn smart solution. They seem to work. You tell people what you did. And present both belsize calmly and, I think, dig in vienna. As I can debate, I don't think that's terribly useful. So that's my view. which I mean people come to me all the time and ask me why I'm worried what should I do, and I said what are you worried about? Let's talk about and go through it calmly and if they want to still take ivermectin, I says, finds your choice from with that said, I love that allows us the way, Think people should deathless. Listen to this weakens our algae and fall. You workers is broken I've been really enjoying it lately, it's it's. I got my favorite way to stay in touch with the the happenings of covered. Obviously, you put in a lot of other stuff in there, but

to do other viruses before covered. It was quite interesting, and I'm trying to slip other viruses in, because I think they're informative in many ways and we're going to do more and more that. But I have to say, I cancelled usually a re, a record on tuesday and friday and I cancelled day. So I could be with you, you john it's fine. I am, I think, a couple of other people. we're gonna be away anyway. So so I do a lot of from five zero on youtube videos to do. alive stream on Wednesday nights on you to which you can find in that's where people can come and ask quest Since we don't have an agenda, we just start and by thirty minutes and there are seven hundred people with questions that I can't even get through, because there are so many of them and I'm actually astounded that so many people are have really good questions. Most of them are reasonable and, and they come back every week, so it's a great is turning into a great the forum to have a nice discussion

And the youtube channels call what so you could search for my name, which has vincent rack and yellow it'll turn up or my handle on youtube is prof Vieira our pietro Effie, are have you read the plague by can agents years ago years ago after he read it again. That is really relevant. Let me ask you a question about it. It it describes a town, that's overtaken by a plague that is blocked off from the rest of the world and kind of reveals the best, the worst of human nature as like how people respond to that. Sort of the encroaching that their own mortality, their own death and the horizon. I think one of the messages in the book that ultimately my love for others so like a lot of people want to become isolated and they hide from each other. But ultimately the thing that saves you

This is as love, which is one of the things of watching this pandemic in a wood. The distance with masks. That's all fine, but there's a distancing from people of that that that attention breaking of the common humanity, humanity between people. That's one of the reasons I when I came to us earlier this year, just to visit, I fell with the city, because, even with the masks in the distance, there were still a camaraderie like a cut like a I dunno. Just the love for each other is a kindness towards each other, and that's where it took away from the plague. Moses told the story of the doctor who basically gives in and

it just gives himself as a service to others, and that that loves is the thing that liberates him from his own conception of mortality. The fact that he's here he's going to die. Where do you think about this, the effect of the virus? We talked a lot about biology, but the effect of the virus and the the the fabric of the common humanity that connects us. Well, that's what a pandemic does it really cuts that right? while outbreaks, your local, they don't have global effects. But when you have something this big we're pretty much nobody escapes and not just making people, It changes your life right, people lose jobs, they change jobs, they move somewhere else.

I have all kinds of disruptions in our kids. Can't go to school, really shows you. I mean, I always like to say a tiny virus can bring earth to it's knees, tiny viruses. You can't even see them that most people don't even think about most of the time and the real effect is not sickness, it's what it does to people, because in the end we are animals in most animals like each other and they in turn. they have great social structures, and that makes them do well. I guess the exception is people any. I write I think I'd better. I think I'd be on their own soluble robots. Ivoire loathe that's right and so I think when a when a The story is what it does to society for sure, which has ramifications way beyond the number of people dying in the vaccines. the tests and all of that and this one has really made a big rupture and you could tell not

so much I think being out and about now things look pretty normal, except for some people wearing masks. You would now never know. I mean the airport this morning was completely jam. People got in there on vacation, you're wearing shorts right, so they're they're back to normal it's august, but last year's really different in new york, where you're used to lots of people on the street was erie. this just quiet, but you know under it. All people are still most people help each other when they have to write. Most people are willing to work. If something happens to someone to reach out and help them in other, We exceptions where people are mean and that's. This is the way animals are were not the only ones that We mean to our own species, but I think The motivation for everything that was done is to help other people I mean. I think I do think, that the vaccine manufacture

maybe not the leaders, but the people working in the labs really wanted to get this out quickly and tell people right. at get every level people who are contributing, really wanted to help other people and even feel proud that they are able to do that. So there's I view it as You know we're, never gonna be a hundred percent good. because animals are not evolution made us. I mean we're lucky. We somehow rose above by having incorrect. Brain and so forth, but a lot of our base instincts are animals. They choose see each other and have alpha males and all that stuff, and we always have little bit of that in us. But we do have some my humanity that this really ripped up? It really did- and I think For me, someone who studied viruses for over forty years, it's just amazing that invisible thing can do that right is. It goes back to the thing he found fast age is a virus

human behavior. Yes, are behaviour the organism. Yes, so you know humans can make weapons in do harm, and you can see that. But this you can't even see and look what it has done and it'll do it again there be more. I just I wish we would be more prepared because we know what to do- We know we should be making antivirals vaccines, masks, testing, masks, making test a modalities that we can really quickly redesign. after sars, one all that went out the door. People didn't do anything that's why we're in this situation. So I know people ask me this all the time are we going to be ready for the next one and I always say We should be. We have all the information we need to know what to do, but somehow I think people forget that said sometimes with we really step up,

the tragedies right in front of us. We do on the castro so you're, not somehow he misses survived the fact. The word nuclear weapons for so many decades and were still not blind each other up whether by terrorists or by nation is amazing is quite surprised that so after reading, the pentagon papers is even more amazing right, so I dunno how we do it. I I tend to believe as there's a there's that you know at the surface, you notice the greed, the corruption, the the evil, but the core of human nature, the human spirit is as one in the scientific, groundless, curiosity and more deeply is, is kindness, compassion and like wanting to do good for the world, but I believe that the zoo to do good out powers or the other stuff, large amount, and that's why we don't. We have not yet destroy ourselves

what kind of there's a lot of bickering there's a lot of wars on the surface, but underneath it all, there's there's this ocean of of love for each other and neither I think this evolution advantage to that. and it will be a good explanation. I was doin destroyed ourselves how we had so many fraternity, air, filleted, all the wars in history, so many I was just my son- was. telling me about the ottoman empire right. It's just you know, war after war and then other countries split being up countries with no regard to whose living where right. I just how can these people do this, as bessie Human history is fast ay and were still young ass, a species. We have a lot of very young what time to go and a lot more wasted. The store ourselves give vice executive may decade,

research and credible, like career in life, your advice for young people about career about life, people in high school pupils college, how to live a life that can be proud of. So I would I like to do, is tell you don't planet because I didn't plan anything everything I did was one step at a time you don't have to plan. I just. Found things that were interesting to me, and so my father was a doctor in He wanted me to be a doctor, but I was not interested in taking care of people. I learn that. But I couldn't say no to him. So I was a biology major in college. A graduated and dumb. I didn't have anything to do so

like science, so I got a job in a lab, is very exciting and that led to everything else that I have done one step at a time and I think the most important thing you can do whether two important things you can be really curious. All the time you mentioned. Curiosity, I think curiosity is essential. You have to be curious about everything and if you are you're never going to be bored now so people who say they're bored, I say you are not curious. You should just think about things and say, look at something and say how does it work or what? What is it doing and how they get there and you'll never be bored, and the other thing is you find something which may take time it's fine you have to be passionate about it. You have to put everything into it and that's what I did with viruses. So They think they're amazing and I tell my classes, I love viruses, their amazing and people think

morbid because, obviously they kill it. They kill people and I shouldn't love something that, but that's not the point. That's not what I mean. I love them in the way they have emerged and how they work in and so forth. In all that we do, how about him see need to be curious in passionate and dont plan too much in just find something that you don't call a job as someone said and live stream last week. I wish I had a job I liked as much as you s is not a job. I never looked at it as a job. It's my vocation. It's my passion. If its edge Then you're not going to like it something that I feel like a job so use The viruses are kind of passive non living, he could say, or even cells or passive, when humans can actively. It'd, be making her own decisions so I'll. Let asking the why question? Would it

is a meeting of this life of ours. Oh there's, no meaning it just happened. It's an accident there. I think, there's no life elsewhere, because this is just a rare accident that happening. Conditions I mean that people will think I'm wrong, because there are billions and billions of stars out there right. So there's a lot of opportunity, there's no meaning it's just a what do they call it? A perfect storm of events that led to molecules being formed, and eventually I took a law time for life to evolve right, but it's just driven by conditions. If something emerge that work, It would then go on to the next step, there's no meaning other than that. The only differ. is there we had, I think many other animals can probably we have the ability, her sentient right. We can influence what happens to us. We can take medicines right, we can.

walter? What would normally happens to us? So we can remove some of their selection pressure. But I think everything else on the planet just goes in looks for food. give a lot of offspring, so you can perpetuate, is just a natural biological. Together there are much more directly concerns survival. I think shirley was able to contemplate their mortality rate within like see that, even if for ok today were eventually going to die, I really don't like that so try to come up with the ways to push that I live farther and farther where we have really hurry. We used to die in our thirties right now. It's seventies aid or most of us used to die in our in the first few weeks as true infant death, I always tell people the only thing: that's a hundred per cent is death. It's the only thing in the world, having to buy your own mortality, everything about it, I'm just enjoying data,

day- and I really do you work on viruses- you don't contemplate your mortality. Given the the deadlines for the virus. I around and never thought covered Kill me. Nine ever was afraid of that not at all. I am I mostly feared for other people getting sick, especially people could die of in want that to happen to them, but I always thought that is obviously not a realistic viewpoint not to be worried because many people are but I've been relatively healthy. They should sequence my genome, because it works really well and have a good to me. It's just maybe you'd be the first in immortal person cause. I don't think I'd be on earth, so I don't think so. I think that the biologically you just can't you know the ends of our

chromosomes, keep getting shorter and shorter and that's eventually which kills us. So you can't keep going on, but that's fine. I don't need so yeah, I understand from the vampires that it's not good to live forever. I guess make the most of the of the time you got. That's the bacteria live much shorter time, so we got that, and bacteria bacteria are just you know little bags of chemicals that that split, so they have no. They have no, well at stake in the matter at all. This doesn't, but I think you have to go a long ways before you get into some kind of consciousness. But yes, weird that this bag of chemicals has a stake in the matter like our human body is a consciousness, is a weird thing not just in us, but they make half of the oxygen on the planet. Twenty percent of the oxygen comes from bacteria

and they made in the beginning averse? They made enough oxygen to start oxygenation going life going and made us have an incredible role. Is accident just happen well of well, a vincent, like I told yummy huge fan? It's a big honor that you will talk to me today. Thank you so much for coming down. Thank you for spending so much time with me and thank you for everything you do terms of educating about viruses. While biology, microbiology and everything else. I can't wait. Everybody should check out vincent's you to watch his lectures. Listen to the podcast is truly incredible. Thank you. So much for talking to him is a pleasure. Thanks for listening to this conversation with vincent reckon, yellow to support this podcast. Please check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words from Isaac. Asimov.

The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.