The following is a conversation between me and Michael malice. Michael is an author and our cast and simpleton, and I am proud to call him my friend. He makes me smile. He makes me think, and he makes me wonder why I sound so sleepy all the time and now, enjoy. This conversation with Michael malice in the typical of language, then am increasingly certain I'll, never quite able to get the hang of. For those of you, listening to just the audio portion of this podcast may be confused by the introduction. So allow me to explain That was my kemal is doing it As of me lex friedman introducing Michael malice under lex friedman, pike ass- I do not find this impression humorous, but

as a sign of my friendship, have issued him a rare one time warning the second time, of course, if it were to occur, will promptly proceed to a termination. I send his family and his friends condolences. He will be missed, As usual, I'll do a few minutes of as now I tried to make these interesting despite the sound, my voice, but I give you timestamps. So if you skip, please do check out the sponsors by clicking the links in the description. It is the best way to support this podcast and very picky, but the sponsors would take on so hopefully, if you buy their stuff, you'll find value in it. Just as I have this show is sponsored by gala games, a fascinating new sponsor. They have created a gaming ecosystem on a blockchain where in game assets are nf. Teas that you can

keep trade in the game and outside the game. On top of that, there are tracking became designers and they think I'm a real chance to create totally new gaming experiences. If all the stuff I've done in all the games have played the arpeggios the ability to three all the others grocery if all of those items one the blockchain, I think my experience would be one more massive and persistence and perhaps also be plain those games anyway. I said playing the town simulation game called town star. I created a town called lexington and started building stuff. I love the game, it super simple super addict super fun. I really wish had more time to play games. I really try to hold myself too two or three hours, a video, in a month, or rather not try, but actually do.

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I hope they figure out where you need a match with a licensed professional therapist in under forty eight hours. I've mentioned this before I'll mention it again. I used to want to be a psychiatrist when I was a First came to this country when I was in high school reading at thinking about what it means to be human. I thought psychiatry, especially as it sir exercise through talk. Therapy is away on the individual level to delve into the human mind and understand are the ways that it goes wrong understand. Are the dark corn of the mind and by exploring those dark corners you get to reveal some about human nature, then I realized that psychiatry in the modern age is more about medic asian less about talk therapy which broke my heart bit, but then I also realise that is there. Understanding the mind economic

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farm by george orwell is one of your books. It's an allegory about, at least think about the soviet union and the russian revolution of nineteen seventeen. So for people haven't read it it, sir animals overthrow the humans and has only become as bad or worse than the humans. So comrade. If we lived on his farm in the book. Animal farm, which animal would you most rather be, would it be the pigs, the horses, the donkey bench in the raven Moses, the humans. Mr Mrs jones, the dogs were the sheep. I'm gonna go with the milton answer, which is better to rule in Hell and serve in Heaven right. It's better to rule and held her servant haven't yeah, so I would have to go with the pigs, so I guess I'd be a cop at the very time

so the leader of the main peg napoleon verses like all the other? Yet I would say it's not it's a short Look over the russian revolution by think orwell's point was: this is broader towards most totalitarian dictatorships. I mean it could very easily be reticent indictment of misleading or hitler or made these others. I'm a huge george Orwell. Then one of the things that I think people on the right need to appreciate is the courage of many of these in the undisputed lee left wing voices who were the strongest wants to take on to tell terrorism it has held during communism and the three I think after my head. Her all in my tops and heroes of all time are emma Haldeman albert remove an oar wellbeing. The third you know something that left dislike to throw in the face of people on the right. Who constantly invoke orwell is that oral said, and I don't have. The exact quota thought my head with subjective,

Every word I have written is in should be taken as a defence of democratic socialism against totalitarianism, so People like truman, you know, was obviously very hardcore in many ways: anti communist we like to parse things out and you're, going to laugh into binary fashions that you know left good right, bad or right. Good left add, but historically speaking it was this not fall away into these camps as easily as people would like, and I think it is important for those of us. It takes a lot more courage to fight the right from the right or to fight the left from the left, because, in a sense, a lot of your countrymen. Are your fellow travelers they're going to regard you as a traitor to the cause? So I I every chance I get I will sing the praises of these three figures of among others who not all, even if they hadn't done what they had done. Just live just

amazing lives that all of us can learn from and admire, meyer and regard as somewhat role model, so was in nature. Their opposition to totalitarianism is at best glee, freedom. Why are you afraid of a lot less got through the three of them, so emma goldman? She was it early, anarchists figure. You will talk by her later, I'm sure ass. She got deported from the united states with her partner in crime. alexander berkman, literal crime. He tried to assassinate frick, who was our andrew carnegie's main man in the pittsburgh steel mill strike and she got deported to the soviet union and they're like they're like. Oh, you want socialism, because at the time the anarchists were regarded as socialist, You know, go choke on it and she's there and she was watching and great horror what was going on and she actually went to lead his office and she goes this isn't what we're about the revolution is about the individual and freeze. beach and everyone working together to further society and

its older. That enough in a free speech, is a bourgeois contrivance and regardless you can't have these circumstances in the midst of a revolution. And when she left the soviet union and and yes, she went to britain and at the time before the nineteen seventeen there was a lot of discussion among socialist circles about what would the revolution look like right? Would there be the baboon an anarchist model? Would there be the marxist model? say the bolsheviks ended a winning, but even then it was an obvious because there is the bolsheviks and the mensheviki listen. What people you and I know what those words mean, but bolsheviks were kind of funny, because bush it means bigger and mention the smaller the mensheviki had the numbers. It was sarcastic that they were called mensheviki in the bolsheviks, recalled butcher and lenin. You know destroyed all his foes in a very merciless viable. Lee beforehand in there was the idea that could well these cocker mimi ideas. We have to work together. You know we don't know. What's gonna look like for the cause, then, as soon as you

these powers, like, yeah yeah, we're not doing that kind of pluralism anymore. This is going to be the right approach, so He left the soviet union, as did Bergmann. She wrote a book that they titled my disillusioned with russia- and I remember this one anecdote which I'm gonna discussing the forthcoming book where she goes to britain and the british were very red at the time they really. I had some nickel, the favouring society, which is the predecessor of the british labour party, which like a right, we're going to get rid of liberalism and have a socialist kind of nation and she got talks, and there was this one's time where she gave a talk and she started, and there was a step, innovation by the time she was done. You could hear, pin drop because she, dared to look at these people in the face of David. fighting for all their lives and saying you know we ve been to the future in a works as she's a guys. This is worse than bizarre. You know people are under house arrest, you're not allowed to have you no newspapers,

shut down if they have heretical views so on and so forth, and you know she was just even more of a pariah than she had been previously. So she is, you know, deserves huge accolades in that regard. I brought her up and we were talking about with our conversation with iran or well. I think you need me to explain what he has done and continues to do to use fiction to demonstrate the horrors of a the totalitarian state and community, who might be my all time, no great lighthouse, so to speak in terms of being a man of conscious, if he joined the communist party and for a lot of people in the states. You hear. Oh, you join the communist party, so I need to hear all you need. He was a communist all you need to know. He joined the communist party because were the main ones: fighting the fascist in france and other locations, and he took nazi ism as in many others, course very very seriously. He wasn't some committed communist, but this was just his mechanism to take on you. are the underground? Did she france's so and so forth? So he

he had the quote, which is ascribed to him, which is kind of a misquote. Howard Zinn is the one who actually said it that it is a job of thinking, people not to be on the side of the executioners, and he very much felt if you read his speech when he won the nobel prize, get in the fifties: regos, it's basically the job of writers to keep civilization from destroying himself. I don't think I've ever going to be a man level of command what he's accomplished, but I think that vision of it is the job of writers to be the conscience and to point out, What this is that leftism, at its best, when you're, giving voice to the voiceless You have the machine of the state. rushing in marginalizing people and they make I'd, be educated literate, our have any power at all. Sutton he's the guy who's like you are ruining humans, these human, matter, and I'm not going to let you look the other way and act like you to know. You're doing so in this time, whether we look

the time of fascism or we look at the fictional animal farm was the hawk action, then so come who joined the communist party, there's a bunch of different heroic actions, some more her own and others not just for here is the wrong word in terms of, like effectiveness, shows the effective action. I guess what I want us ask as a writer is a thing Somebody with a mind was the heroic action at the tricky question, because a lot of time in the west, heroism is regarded intertwined with martyrdom right, so it's kind of this You have like you have to speak to, do you know, can we always talked about justice? Let justice be done, though the heavens fall. This is a common kind of motto among people with conscience and that you have do the right thing. Even the consequences might not be what you like, and I think that is a good. definition of heroism. So if you meet I'll, give you one example of heroism. This was on twitter and I really feel bad that our member, the guy's name this

was the line to auschwitz. I believe it was, and you know, there's the nazi guards keeping everyone along and if you were assert, I think if you were under twelve, they killed. You are some. There was some age limit with some kids were killed, some were not there. In the circumstances, and he asked the mom how old this kid was and she's like he's. Fourteen and she's like no he's twelve and she's like no, he likes fourteen. She goes he's twelve and she realized what this nazi was telling her, even in that circumstance and it end of saving the kids life. So I think heroism in this context is defiance. Standing true to values of liberalism, humanism and venerating, the sanctity of human life. I think that- and I think it's also important to pick your battles. I don't think if you know he got that nazi over there gotten. The

bullhorn and said hey, this is the rules, blah blah blah blah. That's not going to help anyone do anything. So I do think you know people a lot of times. Attack me for my anarchist views. It's like, oh, you know, would you call the police? Would you use the roads which you pay, your income taxes. I you know I. I got an argument with tim pool because there was a couple. I think it was at missouri or illinois when they had their guns and they were being arrested and they basically took a plea deal and he said you should have fought. I go. It's a lot easier to say you should fight, but we don't know what circumstance summit is under and what these toto tearing regimes did very very well is, as you know, is If you were a target and they can get through to you, that's fine. You have a family, so you can sit there lax in gird your jaw and you can stand so the torture cool. What are we gonna? Do what your wife? What about your mom one thing? Stalin? Did he made it a law that kid's up to fourteen in up could get the death penalty for certain

So after that the rule was from the and cavy d. If he were interrogating someone, they would have death warrants for the kids child on the day it's visible, so I'm interrogating you asking you to commit to absurd to admit to some crime that you're not committed and those piece of paper. It's your it's. You know, Svetlana she's got a death warrant, you're going to admit to any crime you want. So this is something americans. This is even the case right now. North korea, which I know you had young me park on something I talk about a lot. Let's talk about instead of the hypothetical, but this is happening right now on earth. You can look at the map on Google, the great leader Kim IL sung the founder korea said class enemies must be exterminated. Three generations so north. When people talk about individualism, verse, collectivism, rick, centaur from a centre, says the family as the basic unit of society unit north korea. Take that seriously the family is

punished as a unit. So if someone does something wrong, three generations have the pay the price, and you often dont, know who it is that got you all in trouble. There's not a trial. This to western mines is something almost incomprehensible. It's a lot easier to be brave. One is just your skin the damp, What is worse, yeah when it's your child here, your loved ones, yet every man becomes a coward, but also what bravery is there for me to write it s day? For the guardian to say I dont vote There's no consequences to me: there's no possibility of consequences to me. This is a wonderful thing about living scares me in a free country. It would take a lot of courage to be in the soviet union say I'm not going to vote and what would that courage accomplish a very little sigh. Think hair was given the sense of kind of this suicidal stuff in taking a stance with no consequence. It is a bit overrated. There is some

back like the way, I think by heroism is something that you said about the nazi soldier, which is key I lay privately in your own life, lived the virtues that you want the rest, the war to live by. Yes, So like without writing about it is that is not as her work is living it quietly I'll give you a great example of this I sometimes give talks on networking and I tell the kids if you know someone's in town and it's their birth, there was nothing to do. Take them out, and I say I do this for selfish reasons at every laughs, and I go think about it. This way the guy who takes people out for their birthday is awesome that could be you like you huh,

that capacity to be that person and you're making that they feel special, they're gonna member for a long time, what the cost dinner thirty bucks, twenty five bucks. So there it is. It's very disturbing to me how often people have opportunities to slightly move them meet needle and make things a bit better at almost no cost and they just literally dont. Think in those terms, and one of the things come more talked about, you know he's often described as a existentialist which he did not like that term. He regards Somethin absurdest is the idea that were basically blank canvasses, and this is something that is dangerous. This is enormous opportunity and you have ability to become the car the man or woman, that meyer and want to be. You don't have to be. You know no george, washington or when these great here is of all time, but everyone out there has the capacity capacity to me to be here to their kids.

Or to be a hero to maybe some there's, this nursing homes in this old people who are lonely, I think that you taken a dog, that's on its last legs. These. Or little things. Terry shepard does that a lot on a regard him as a hero, and these are not terry sheppard and blackens name. These are things that people do and that aren't heroic in the sense of superman, but that I find admirable extremely and, I think, are very underrated, because these people are championed is this: I'm kind of weird passiveaggressive, indirect way for you to tell me that I should take you all for your birthday. Monday is that why you gave their whole speech that I wasn't it at all those a job like it was a failed joke. Nevertheless, there is no punchline Without failure, we would not have triumph. stick on the cuckoo, absurd, isn't versus existentialist. I'm sure we think is the difference.

In your ideas about it? Anarchism to it seems like those are somehow intricately connected, because existential ism is connected to freedom and freedom is connected to anarchism sure, but I mean soccer was a defender of the soviet union. Ah, he said explicitly about things like gulags, like even if it's true, we shouldn't talk about it, and so he eat it. What people don't appreciate is how human beings can have contradictory ideas in their minds at the same time, so one would think. Okay, someone's a Democrat they think a b c, therefore giving the people have all sorts of contradictions, and it's not at all clear and they d have a clean conscious as a human right is very sophisticated and is capable of doing this. So sartre you know was you would think, he's this radical individualist. You know the sense of all. freedom, but he's defending the soviet union

come on the other hand with proud beak is it was very much a social democrat. He didn't really talk about what politics should be so much as it shouldn't be. His essay reflections on the guillotine is one of the great masterpieces of all time. An attack death penalty, not in terms of no one's evil or it's wrong to kill murderers, but in terms of what is it do for a society? If you have some one who set takes a person and locks them in a room, and says you know in two years, I'm going to murder you and you locked them for that. This is not someone we'd regard as moral. We regard this as someone who's a complete monster, but that's what the state does you know with the death penalty and he- and he challenges us to think- is this the kind of people we want to be and again he saying I'm not saying killing a murder is wrong. I'm not saying evil is wrong. His entire career was dedicated to fighting the concept of evil, but are we the kind of people who

want to be doing these things that in any other context, we regard as torture or depraved. So I much more become a person then ass, the doktor praise. You is probably against war. In that same ways, I don't I had to admit I don't know much about the political side of coma, will I don't think his political sides that interesting or relevant what I find so interrupt. Do I what I find fascinating about canoe and what to think about on a daily basis from him is his insistence that you have to live a life based on conscience that you have to be accountable to yourself when you put your pill head on the pillow at the end of the day and ask yourself. Did I live a righteous life with integrity, to my values: did I not needlessly cause harm to innocent people. That kind of mindset did I. If someone is weak, am I use that as an opportunity to exploit them or to harm them, or do I feel a bit of sympathy or for this person because maybe

have circumstances that were united as beneficial the people had well, how does a fit absurd, where everything is absurd? Nothing as meaning it really borders on nihilism there? So he his he regards not his his philosophy explicitly said, is a response to nihilism and a hacker listen he either. He regrets cynicism as the worst value people can have, and I agree with him one hundred percent allotted a people call me cynical online and I pushed back very very hard because to be a sit under it. You know I had this. For in the new right rice I'd rather be naive than a cynic, because a cynic is a hopeless man who projects as hopelessness to the world at large. Come

ooh. This is the metaphor I use and I find it very inspirational. I thought he was in his work, but I guess I thought if I described it to him, there's two types of people and imagine you go to a mountain side and you see a blank canvas on an easel standing in front this mountainside one people be like Why is this blank canvas here in a wood? It would it when it was. This was going on here. I just be confused, whereas the other type of person will be like this. A blank canvas here in this beautiful countryside. What a great opportunity I can paint this river. I could pay that bird. I could pay my friends or myself in the background, infinite choices at this

the gift that I have been given and I think that also ties very heavily into what I was right when she shiva kid, which is your school. What we were taught in incessantly how to look at life is this beautiful gift that god has given you and that god wants you to be happy? He wants you to live to the fullest in a moral way. I remember the first time I went to a church and they were asking she's about the jewish concept, the actor like they were familiar with jewish thought, and it took me a second cause. I really have answers, and then I remembered what we were taught, which is less suppose you're at this banquet, the best chef on earth and the table so heavy cause. You got stakes and you ve got chicken got sushi and the wines flowing, and you ve got your doktor, pepper and, and mr add mr pay and the store brand everything you want and your.

Walking around at this amazing bounty right and then you turned to this best chef on earth and you're like oh, so what's for dessert, I mean the offensiveness of that is just so. You know insane like you have this eat the meal like I promise you if I could deliver this meal, the desert's gonna be okay, so this focus on the afterlife when we ve been given this amazing gift. You know on this earth is, is a very kind of different mindset. From both the jewish tradition. Is I've been taught and the new mindset are obviously Camille was an atheist, didn't believe in an afterlife, but this concept that life is a is meaningless. But that means you have that opportunity to find value to seek for truth to seek for happiness. Then canoe has. This quote is ascribed to him as like a meme. I've never found the source of maybe he didn't really say it, but he says maybe it's not

happy endings. Maybe it's about the journey and I think when you have that mindset and as you know, I I think you and I both down this because neither of us we were kids that we be doing this right now, but now that we are really fortunate daphne this year and definitely that, but now they were fortunate enough to do this and that were blessed enough- that there's people who find this value dressed, and we could pay the rent doing this there's not a day that goes by, were I dont think you and I think this is pretty absurd, but it's also pretty wonderful and, as a consequence of us thriving, it also shows other people that happiness is possible on this earth and I think cynicism is the lie. It's not just the world. Do it's a lie that happiness is not possible in this earth or its only happy possible. If you sell your soul and you're like a bad person, you screw other people over

I reject that in every aspect you know, as you said, my bird, this coming up. I've been feeling just a lot of really great things have been happening very recently, so it is its effects. Me very. Heavily emotionally, especially when I see the response it gives to like the kids right? So it's one thing to say this is what I'm for, but when you can provide proof of concept that what you ve been advocating does result in positive responses. I got a message from this kid who had tried to kill himself a year ago: ok and then he was like look. I found your work. I found some other stuff, and now I realize I'm gonna make something of myself. I was born in a math house. You know that whatever nineteen twenty years old, I should be in the garbage, but I'm gonna try to be a stand up, because I have opportunity on this earth. Even if he fails us stand up, you know he still such whatever. He does. Washing Dishes- there's no shame in that. He is it so bad to have a crappy job and a girl

friend for you don't really like, but ass compared the alternative of like I'm gonna, kill myself. This is Heaven what I think there's b d be discovered in all of it, and all those experiences yes so, but at the same time, so Think about it. Just recently re read the area by does the risky I often feel like the it that's why, when I say I'm an idiot, I often think about prince Michigan. That kind of video, which world seizures naive. I don't he's naive, I don't think but attend to see the good people and a good in every moment, and the word it often is cynical and in fact, especially in what we do often the intellectual is supposed to be cynical. It is I I this is very much an urban elite educated mindset where, if you write a book about someone who's, let's suppose a drug

to prostitute, that has helped and that's valid. But if you're writing a book about like a love story, you know to people love in its therein. Roller posters or care care cells- that's less legitimate. I hate that. I hate that I hate that so much because the message it gives to people is you. Have to choose between thriving and happiness and silliness and seriousness and depravity, and I'm not saying a gigantic rosters, to pray but their basically their world use if its. Unless it's dark and twisted it doesn't really count as art, and I I despise them instead said that subjects, so the internet and people around me often will culminate in Gaza where they want, is innocent. Don't you think it's the best, not that innocent? No, but it the thing that you you generally in your heart. I know you fairly well at this point, believe that goodness is possible and that people can, if not good at least be better than they were yesterday, see even the word naive or the word innocent presumes that

not wisdom in that presumes that somehow that sir, Oh, isn't that beautiful to live that life of a child who sees the world these bright eyes. In his hopeful about the future, but just way until they go up and realise that realities much harsher than they think right, but, very little child might be. Why? sir than all of the adults in the room and dont you don't you want to be If the world is like that, do you want to be the guy? Who takes it on and changes it for the better right? So it's like saying: well, you know cancers everywhere, it's inevitable, we'll! Don't you want to be the one who says not any more up here and I'm going to make that change, and I can see it being better than it is now so I I I think you and I have the same, an analysis of your worldview and I don't think that there is a good word for it. So I guess it's. This idea of you know

and benevolence may be. You know maybe wordy, but I think that's more accurate because you know you and I did not have such easy lives growing up, to put it mildly. You constantly talk about just horrific aspects of life so to claim that you kind of don't know that they exist. Are you sleep on the rug is completely not accurate to your work and your mindset. Can we talk about or to the soviet union sure so on Sunday june. Twenty second, ninety forty one hitler launched operation barbarossa, which It's the surprise invasion of the soviet union. If I could read to you a few lyrics from a song that, for some reason, has stuck throughout my childhood, there is a famous song during that time, what's a stairway junia around teacher sir, give by media.

now a dvd stone, the show as I by non the July snub us visa. The should be bush, do beats spider beach, spidey body did you cut? Does that he have been. The song talks about the key of like that moment. As part of that operation, he was first bombed and was analysis than june twenty. Second, the song as at exactly four o clock that the war has begun, for some reason. This song haunts me because the exactness of that time and this realization that, at any moment, you can have this thing, happen to you in your personal life? Maybe we had some like nine eleven happen or everything changes, and it's just like haunting because

It makes me think that at any moment, something like that could happen that changes everything and think about like normal life going on in kiev at the time and all of a sudden, the bombs, Dropping the enough The war has begun and thought you were going to do out of the war. This is something that is very intensely emotional for me, because you and I the russian jewish so to know that my grandparents and my great grandma were told. That the nazis were coming, and this was the dress rehearsal and that if they get here which they do they did live up is very western ukraine that one hundred percent you and all your relatives are going to be murdered and-

Ah, there's a monument now and in the world from about this, but I dont think I The reverse. Can imagine what it's like to know to think that we're about in a minute. So whenever hours or theirs is vision the russian army standing between us and everyone. Everyone, We are related to are going to be murdered for no reason and eat. you know like: what's the closure here right like they that create a lot of people, and but they did, vacuum enough. to know that there is this force coming to. Hundred percent murder you this isn't some kind of you know the tv news being. I propose they are coming to kill you and they if they get. They will kill you and you have to

you know. We all think about warlike, go, we hope a mirror. The winds in Iraq rarer, but if america got there sk a kind of internet norm. It's not really gonna effect. America in this is that you can have the body bags and all the kids being killed in that something this unless super the rug No one in america thought the vietnam. They're going to come here and killed that right. There were secure in their person so to have that sense of we, really need to win, because if we don't win, we are one hundred percent. If we, then the russian army does when we are one hunter sent all going to be slaughtered and often enough. Just a bullet through the head in insisting ways is something that ought to know that people who share my blood sign went through is very hard for me to kind of on rub my head around and there's. No, stability to delude yourself require because

I mean I would die as the song. The talks about, but that those burn the factories this basically saying. we're in the war now. This is like this is your I feel let us is our ladder now, not how you, yes, dear you worried about like I misplaced, my pen were, whereas it like it's like yet was Paradise. Most of us are gonna. This our life now is that most of us are going to die and if we want to prevent all of us from dying, we are with. fight, and we also can't sit down in some kind of weird like gum, desert island, or you noticed play. It crashed situation and be like. Let's side between us who's gonna be the first to die. Maybe them like thy china, the titanic right, they sat down and there are like women a chilling at the lifeboats. You know they had this rational agreement. You dont have those choices it in a war, so it's it's some

that I it it's just very chilling- ended something I don't really have the emotional space to understand or grapple with even a you have been to north korea. You can see it so and so forth. You and I kent or anyone listening to this, except for may beyond me, and people like that. You can't imagine what that's like to live it we can't. I I we can't imagine what it's like to live in those situations where it's not like before hitler came, edward was dead, cigarettes around and having a great time I mean imagine how what that life is like, where your preference to hitler is starving and waiting on line four hours for bread and to have this your police, in your friends attorney, went in your fellows, are all tapped and your prisoner, but to you this is in in italy, better than the alternative, like these, the choices that our family had to deal with it, something

that no matter how much you it's like a italy put in terms, you understand, you know what I mean. It's like your first bad breakup right, like that's a much simpler thing to read your head around because it's like, if you never had it, you can't really, but when you feel it is just this so intense, but you can't tell someone once like we could sit down for days and hours have people tell us, but until it's the totality fatality of your environment and your life in your mind, set. I am my grandma. I should talk about like when we're when you're that hungary, all you're thinking about is bread now, because

your brain. Won't, let you know human beings yeah we're revolved. We have instincts whatever and the mind is telling you food food, food, food, food, food and that there's kids thinking this and that there's no they're not going to get the food and imagine, being a parent and you're watching your kids without food, and knowing they're not gonna get the food and the fact that this happened in north korea in the nineties. I met a refugee and He had to watch his dad starve to death, and they you do and it we have no concept of what it's like. I mean we kind of you know it's just like last night here in Austin, all the places were closed and I couldn't get my protein powder, and this is the

stead of my suffering when it comes to food. You know, or if I couldn't do that either as a restaurant, that I went to in brooklyn, where, for some factories in the we're in serving the she me they only had species. I had to have the rice and carbs live a life where that is the extent of your food problems as opposed to the choices either hitler killing you or being hungry twenty four then you know my grandma told the story of how they had a close call. It was heard her brother and her mom, my great grandma who passed, and I think it was like either helicopter overhead or something and my great grandma jumped on top of my grandma's brother and not my grandma, said she basically with did a sophie's choice, my grandma Davis, Sophia and chose the brother, and this is something that she felt. You know all her life that her mom it shows that her brother of her, but these little things that then, these little kind of her decisions. We have

to make in war. There's a book I read called five chimneys. I think this woman, was an ashworth survivor and what she talked about, what people don't appreciate its, not necessarily the slaughter and the worker. It's that there's no rhyme a reason to it like she talked about how they had a camp just for people from czechoslovakia. And they were treated better than the Jews and then one day they just kill them all. Right and she's, like I still don't understand why they're good perfect them well and then, the next day there are killed we will never get answers. You know and she's an in things like she talks about. they decided to kill all the kids and really either for some reason they didn't have the courage to where they want to be cruel. So that is shooting them. They just kept walking in the snow until they all died. So it's things like that that the fact that you and I dodged these bullets and that we and be here and now

doing this and you know running our mouths for living. I think about it all the time and it's it's just very disturbing to know- and I know you know this as well- that there's lots of places on earth where, if people had a choice, they would kill us on site and be proud of himself for it, the other. I don't know what to make of the contract. you- you are talking about the fact that you ve been true- happy. The last few weeks and months. As has been a lot of moments of happiness enjoy and that joy is built on the history of human. Suffering like in your roots in your blood, is a lot of people there were tortured that suffered so that you can his joy and you have both the you have the responsibility to truly be grateful for that joy, but it also shows that there's the happy ending that it does and in a good note that it does get infinitely infinitely better.

and that, I think, is there, sir. I don't like you said there were responsibility, but there is an opportunity for those of us who did dodge that bullet to give testimony to these people and, more importantly, to give testimony to the people who are going through this now so you're one the reasons I talk about north korea, some Why wrote dear reader is because it's very easy and this is human nature- I'm not condemning people, I don't think this is how people are hired when you see an asian country with asian people and things are about over there, you, you know, I think you know, it's like. Oh you know: asia they're all crazy, they're, they're wacky. They you know they eat dogs or so and so for some weird stereotype and they think of them as kind of martians. So it's important for people who aren't of that kind of ancestry to kind of speak on behalf of these people, because it's very print, how just people to natural react. When you have a western or talking about this, if, instead of coming there

of them over there. It becomes. You know this could have been us very easily I've a friend peter. They had scheme great dude, and I was showing him photos when I was in pyongyang, and he goes. This looks like a russian city with asian people. It was completely disturbed him, so Well, that was one of the reasons I did go to north korea, because that was as close as I would get to see what your family went through to see what my family went through and they're still living under this a regime and one of the things I fought very hard to do with dear reader, which I was successful and amazingly, and it just I say, like, I could die now like, I feel like if you make, if just move need a little bit than you kind of pay, your do be your time here on this earth habit change being a laughing stock. You know, and I think team America did a good job. They made Kim jong IL into a clown and they made a joke of it, but you're going from

a thing to jokes at least now. People are aware of it that it exists right and then ice and many others took it from a joke to like guys. This is really really really bad, and none of us, I even appreciate how bad it is, and I think now there is an understanding other than a few people who were just looking at through a trump lens and wanting trump to fail, because trump's in esl, and that's fine to be like these poor people, and it's really unfortunate because there's a segment of a western culture who thinks that korea, We often when you're complaining about were discussing the plight. other country, that's just your prelude war and an excuse to invade the kurds in syria. You never talked about if we'd on syria is tomorrow's, be another genocide, blah blah, I'm not saying, let's invade north queer thing, that all I'm saying is you know, thank god, that this is in your life, I bring this up all the time. The woman who was my guide when I was there. I am aware of what

Up to now, she still she's extremely rare by north korean standards. she'll never be in a position by medicine, be budapest and you're gonna vacation thing that you- and I just you, know whatever shit she's, she can't go on the internet. She can't get encyclopedia. She can't better herself as a person other than through what State allows and meaning bed yourself as a person in service to the state. So, I mean there's, it's also frustrating, because it is only so much that I can do as an individual rights The takeaway about human nature, from looking at north korea and looking at how the rest of the world is looking at north korea. I I I always. This is a great question I think about it fairly. Often- and I always say, human beings are animals right when you say that was an animal is like a slur like he's like a beast. Animals are april of enormous kindness. Empathy sympathy, you know they look out for one another,

one another this thing with with apes, where they groom each other for parasites and useful. Even if there are no parasites, they pretend this parasites just to have that kind of bonding. You see infinite, I have photos online of like cats raising puppies cause. The puppy's mom died. Things like this, that's part of being an animal part of being an animal is also just the most ma just cruelty a killer, whales in oh, this is big. Pc move did not call them killer whales and just call them workers. They will murder blue whale pops. Calves. Excuse me and play with them and not even eat them. So they just murder for the sake of fun, so there's at edna cats, you know, kill birds all the time things like this, so it runs the whole gamut and I think it's I don't know you, but you are wrong, and I run your, shall I dont think lord. The flies is accurate. I dont think hobbs is how reality works when you're in that kind of state, but I think we ve seen countless examples of human being

is especially when human beings have power over someone who's powerless of allowing themselves to engage in not just harm but cruelty, That is something as soviets you and I are very painfully aware of it. It is not just about the oppression which as bad enough as it is it's that mediocre person with that little bit of power and now their staff between you and your daughter medicine, they love it to make you dance too, like all you need me to get. This medicine will make. You go just go through hoops, because now they feel like, for the first time, their life there in a position of strength and power. I think that is in many ways the more common nature of evil the. What Hannah errant talks about the banality of evil? Then someone who

it's like an ss guard, you're shooting someone in the head like that. I think we could all wrapper heads around to some extent like okay, I'm a military, it's not easy. I have to execute people pulling a trigger. You could kind of have this mental disconnect between the her and the victim, but like that little data they stuff like? Are you doing the right thing in a day day basis that I think is far more common and far more disturbing aspect in certain sectors of the human psyche, now there's something especially disturbing about a week. Man given power and just abuse that power there's something about this week, but, like media everything it does less the media, if you a great example of this, which I'm also talking about the next book, is ceausescu. Who was the dictator india, so you know the cold war is still somewhat poorly understood in popular culture but the different countries in the second world, the soviet bloc summer ma

liberal than others, some are more sane than others. That ceausescu at first was one of those you no more western. friendly, more the free ones that he met the great leader, kamal son from north korea, and he had the idea to impose a personnel called on romania and is the kind of things like forcing people to breed, because you want to make people taller. He I think you may like the biggest bill, in all of europe, the people's palace, but it was just for him bothers no electricity elsewhere. But you look at this guy. He was Stalin's bad ass right. He was a bank robber. If you look at photos him as a kid he The young lady was clearly intellectual that these were not. These were powerful trotzky. These were powerful men with huge egos, huge perforce, a personality, but you look at his ceausescu guy. and you could like, for example, on my driver's license. Instead of my dress, him, like a moral dress, be like one two, three four fifth avenue by mistake. It says one two, three four,

st right, and so you can imagine him being in the post office and me giving him. I do to get my package at him being baffled because the street this as avenues that of understand- and this the look on his face, this dullard- that you can see how you know how sometimes I'm gonna crackers fuck, yes yeah. So she know like how you're in the airport- and you see someone and you look at them an adult and you think, ok, this person was born fucked up just like on site like something's wrong them how they travelling alone. You look a ceausescu, you look at we like something's, not right with this guide, not in the sense of like evil, but the sense of he's a simple didn't, write and now in charge this whole country and everyone's taught to regard him as when the great geniuses of all time and its this. The idea this mediocre nobody. This guy would have in any other culture, been accomplished, nothing more Where would we're or war would have had an honest job where he's like? Ok he's works the mill mail service in his bad at it. Ok, findings are hurting anyone and now, as a result, this he's responsible for mass death, secret police at incarceration

and you know that one, the greatest things I've ever seen- which I am sure that if he will see as well, if you go on youtube, it's his speech and it's the first time the crowd turn in his head kind as long as they are bowing him, which was unheard of know he was shot with his dog faced. Wife, not that long after it was just a great moment, but it's things like this. I agree with you that that mediocre weak person is now in a position. enough power power, somebody else and that sense of a vindictiveness like I'm gonna, feel strong for once in my life, but it's gonna be at your expense that I think, is a year human nature, its most primal and every time I meet a person in this world that are the first person to get me to cry out a fuckin pipettes hunted. The robot gets me to cry, but the it has gone off. Every time I mean a weird person. Some heat to me? Heroism is also taking a risk to our rebelled against me? Our committee like in the most simple as that

ways like the license address like taking a risk to break the wooden a rule that nobody will know about to take that little bit of a leap of like that that little protests against the bureaucrats. see like that? Nazi germany, where he just spoke out his lady, that's a big, the richer. I mean like literally at the line at starbucks, or something looks like, even in the tiniest the ways when I see people just like it's almost like that little like glimmer in there, I a wink like we're in this together. This there's there's all this formerly all around us. That's at a different time could have been nazi. Germany could have been in estonia, soviet union we're in this together, there were going to rebel against that conformity by just just taken the risk that little bit a risk against me. I agree and that and then, once again,

this in companies too, when I see the mediocrity I see this as the worker I see and google com, he's grow their meeting. our creed of warming, the peter principle right. The Peter principle here my hope, all of us- have the possibility for that glimmer that that risk, taking the leap Of faith, whatever the heck, that is the leap out of the ordinary, the conformity the mediocrity, so this is where you and I disagree. I think most a lot of people do I not capable of that their customs to it at all. if they're, not capable the ice, I might pause. I understand your position, I'm disagreeing with it. I'm saying I do not think that capable, I think a lot of people effectively don't have souls they do not have a conscience in this sense, where they're going to lie get an issue, bring their critical thinking and say right. I am going to do the right thing, all of them.

Taking a risk, I dont thinking is involved, or is it just taken that leap there there's something about that basic human spirit. Forget the thinking part it is just saying like I'll. Take that risk did the taken out. Venture the same thing that got people to explore. The sees. You know that the throat you must have station explore land explored oceans like that exploit expiration, like we ve done stuff. This way, all this time The leap and that comes out of nowhere seem like those lot of people are the heroes, but I don't think that's the universal iron out there, there are many very gauche example. There is a show called scare tactics which was baser candid camera, but they would scare people like did we have vampires that every new hidden camera people's reactions and so a lot it, but sometimes it

the prank didn't work out like they expected. So there was one where they were hiring. Some of the people, who are the marks in other contestants, so to speak, was who were hard to be cure to guard uk, and you up the watch this this factory overnight and you get paid and what the set up was. Some people were breaking. out of the factory in the middle of the night like in rags- and there is saying there His prisoner here, like la blind, just watch the person reaction to this, and there was one security guard where there he basically forced them back into the building and there, like. you're working as twenty four seven we're getting beat me like I'm here to do a job get back in there and you watch this and it never every enters his head. like something's wrong here. He was given his orders. He's following his orders and to me that

is not uncommon and that person, although they look like you and I I there's something essentially human missing with them now very quickly. The reaction is well. It's one step from there to nazi ism. I dont think it's something That is that, I'm just saying this person should be killed, but I'm just saying to expect that every human being has the capacity to have that defiance, especially that acosta in life. That I think is not realistic and I, but at the same time I feel like an octopus. On the eighth hand, it is those few of us- or, if you want to include me in this, who do make these tiny little protests who look the other way when someone is hungry, stealing food from the supermarket right. It's like I write like I'm gonna pretend I didn't see anything that, though, little elements of heroism, are what move pupil

Kennedy forward and demonstrate the validity of the human experience, whereas everyone else is kind of like scenery. I think almost everybody in the world can derive deep, meaning and pleasure from having done those courageous acts, and I also think they have the capacity to do them to discover that meaning in happiness a year, the cynic than why are they doing it? They haven't gotten a chance to like I've. Never, I tried lsd or dmt, Having got the chance to try this his journey, which has taken the risk. That's another less because, as you just said two minutes ago, everyone has that chance every day to do the right thing We have the chance to do a lot of things and we don't realize there's a lot of stuff right in front of our knows that we don't realize right. Did she have to kind of wake up to it? Sometimes you need the catalyst their needs

be some kind of thing that happens. Awakes you up that the fact that most people don't take the small acts of rebellion doesn't mean that don't have the capacity to both do so and to derive a lotta meaning from it. Then it's a the discussion about how decrease societies that get more and more people to be free actors and free thinkers. That's that's the guy that that probably leads us into a discussion of anarchism and so on, but yeah. I just think we are very young as a species we're trying to figure out how to get ourselves to first be collaborative but at the same time be free spirits. Anything those are within human nature. I also, I think. Another big concern is that there is enormous disincentives.

and this is Michael malice speaking for human beings to be kind and for tenderness and I think, especially when you are young, you know I mean you when you're a mature alot, its have suddenly shouts you with kindness, vulnerability and you think it's funny. The kind of dumping in the water and a fool or something like that when you get older, you look out there, you know it. There is just one example of this decision This is in the nineties and there the woman she became a like like stripper, some like that or whatever was it is amazing body issues is gorgeous. The show was: she was talked about how it she was in high school. She was bullied a lot and that there is as football player he messed with her. Every single stay and like at one day she even threw pickles in her hair and her hair smelled like pickles and her was laughing at her, and this really screwed up that meets up to that show and they took her backstage and they brought out the full player and now he's a dad and a regular dude that he's like these

I d like to you know why you're here and he's like no and the like. you like in high school, I was kind of a jock bully, whatever and they brought her out and he didn't. Even member who really and choose such crying about the pickles- that whatever it is, something that effective like twenty years- I've, never seen a clear exam. Well if somebody wanted to kill themselves in this guy, like the guilt on his face and he's looking at her and he's desperate to be like what can I do to take your pain away to make it better like I I he was just crippled by it, because he knew there's nothing. He could do. you he a hundred percent did the wrong thing. He knew he did the wrong thing unthinkingly like you can imagine. you know I got a screw over this lady to feed my family. You know that that funding, but from it it was that at the time It meant nothing to him. Of course you to remember that is paralyzed by the sense of crippling guilt, one the reasons I always tried to do the right thing. Is it because I'm inherently good person

which I do not think I am. I don't think anyone is inherently good, but because I will feel guilty about it. for a very very long time, because if you do The wrong thing. This is a very common idea. You'd do the wrong thing to a good person. That's really really bad What kind of person you in the same way that everyone can be that guy who take someone after their birthday? Everyone has that ability for someone who did the wrong thing to someone who is a normal person. Do you wanna be that guy as well. friend bits dean he's a The gold dust gives me bitcoin person. My boy before you go and hubris like five hundred dollars. Now any basic hard to find came up two thousand six, and he had told me that you know you can get it on done. Torrent its download, bull and I'm like. Oh, I thought, if you're my friend, you know, you'd want to buy it at the time it was not five hundred dollars. I assure you, and he goes I did

I get I'm just telling you that you could also get it for free. This information that you might want to use, and I felt I'd like I snapped- that this kid who was doing right by me I felt a just stuck in my head, like urine, ass, an years later I apologize heat it had. No member have this at all. I am glad to be able to reread apology again, but even this You know a lot of times and extremely aggressive on twitter and another venues I always try to, and maybe I fail that's my moral failing always do it as a counter attack, if you're gonna start going personal, if you're gonna start being addressed, against individual, I'm not going to necessarily hold back when I reciprocate and its I think that is very common on social media, but I don't think it is normal. I just because a lot of the desir talk much the quite little rebellion. just because everyone else around you thinks it's. Ok, it's just go to people and attacked and the most personal ways in prompted cousin

Views really just take a step back and realized what you're engaging with now. If that's the fight they want, then you know my sylvia cruelty could come out that's kind of why don't drink, because I with joy at the same time, be aware of what you're doing and end and again this goes back to commence sense. That conscience really is what makes us human beings it s. A thing was saying I dont think most people think in terms of conscience. They don't think it they we're it's hot. This is that it is that's that creeping cynicism that oh grow up when you're an adult yet to make sacrifices, blah blah blah and even if I buy them for a second, which I doubt, but if I have to make sacrifices some times that doesn't mean it's ok for me to make a sound. vice of my values. In this moment, if I have to maybe be at work, and my boss is a jerk to me and calls me names apt to be humiliated, but I gotta put food on the plate. That does maybe it's ok later. If I might apart,

and I just you know extremely offensive to someone for no reason: my own flavour, of a little bit of rebellion. Sometimes they used the number two As you know, very witty on twitter, adding you my and twitter likes mockery the wit yandah counter attack as toward allows that somebody who skills at it My own flavour, of a bit of rebellion, is to say things very simply bordering on cliche. With with with authenticity. like genuinely meaning the words I say, but no that those words would be are easy to attack sure, and that

sometimes those attacks get hurt because people Just mock me sure people don't like earnestness, because they ve been taught to be the tool for school yeah. So the there's this pressure for me to be some way more sophisticated, yeah he's. Bigger words are sometimes throw in a criticism of it uses a software like that, like like, almost as if I have a deep wisdom about the way the world is broken, but when you speak very, Simply about beautiful things in life is very easy to sound. Like you, don't know what the hell you're talking about her, and I cannot I stick by that One know where there's there's gonna end up but said the idiot from this. The asking it feels like that's right. That's the right thing, even if it hurts,

im attacked for it? I I do something similar sometimes, which is I'll. Have some innocuous comment about. Like bubblegum, I mean just it's not even political and a lot of times people a few people will respond this paragraph of just invective about like blah. in this. You say this in your and ass: an unjust really trying to get at me and what I those situation. There are very specific circumstances. I will respond and I mean it every single time I will say I wish your parents had been kinder to you or your mama. Your dad, because if someone is some even if some idiot on twitter right, if we just talk of a bubble gum- and this is responsible politics vacancy I've been we'll get emotional covered. My grandma died now your tumblr and u. I realize this isn't about me like, I'm someone, you ve, never met Some inane point about nothing then

getting agitated about this is clearly something else that's going on here and someone taught you, someone had to teach you that this is how to respond to this kind of very kind. harsh way and a lot of times they'll you, they will say thing were get deleted and I hope every single time, this no asterisk here that they. A second and they realise that the way that they were talk to growing up was not acceptable. That data will have to carry this forward and that day have to be kind to me. I'm nobody them, but take a second and ask if this is the. In a mindset. You want to be your norm as opposed to a weapon. You pull out of your pocket, sometimes where it's warranted or even when it's not warrant I think there's a lot of those people out there. You know- and we forget how you know how hard it is for a lot of people too.

grow up, how their trained from their their parents or the single parent that the only way in a get attention is by acting out that, when they do good things, and get comment, but if they do add things they get a smack upside their head. That, I think, is farmer common than we realize, and that's such a it's, not even it's not hitting the kid that's going to last, if the pain is going to give for five seconds, but when you're training this child helpless child is something that's really really bad. I dunno, if it was, map to that, I was wonder about them like what their motivations are, and I just kind of like whenever I think about them, I think only positively- and I don't even think about the childhood thing. I think I don't know I I can't imagine that always can go to that stage where enjoy the derision, others would go to

age is a buddy. I enjoy the derision of others, but it has to be a billiard. How I'd have that quota? Like I like it when people are mean to make us, stop pretending to be nice, but like what's the worst thing? Something said about you: you're: not what harm are you doing maybe you're podcast is garbage and the people are the conversation suck in the people or lose while on. They would know the main. The main thing, I would say some way more popular. I deserve to be what does deserve mean the reality. Is there's people out there that just enjoy hating and others, and I don't I don't fought them for it, like I even think of them ass haters, of them is just people that, in this particular part of their life, are enjoying this activity of. Of deriding others on the internet, sure what to do that? I just don't want it I I don't allow myself to thing badly them. I guess is the thing I applaud the one saying: don't think that they have them absurd

in that, I don't think they're, inherently bad people, I think that their thinking is screwed and that of steel mining them. Something let's assume everything you're saying about lengthens true. This is an opportunity for you to outdo lacks like. Is it not Are you saying they should stop hating cause like? Maybe they shouldn't just keep thy, I don't believe in. It I have an anarchist put up saying if this is your belief about lex, sir, the EU and it is. I made this comment in my book than you write when people make fun of Andy warhol and there, like, oh, my god, he painted soup can now he became a millionaire. I could do this or why don't you yeah? So basically I, if I go up to you with a check, and I say I will give you a million dollars. You could see the check. You got a paint a soup can. What am I waiting for so clearly, there is a disconnect in their thinking between what their perceiving and the reality, because if it was a simple or as maybe not simple, but as as as possible for them as they perceive it to be?

Why are they leaving comments instead of outdoing you? How great would it be for them to have your bigger odds instead drive you to the ground utterly how that would work cause? It's not the n b, a nope, but you want to point out you you do this too. On twitter, you want to point out the hypocrisy that- joys of others right, you hurt me, what are you you're, not claiming anything other than this is the following. Is the cover station between me and India chick you. Whatever his name is right. I got the voice down dude, I got it down the water at my house? Do my legs impression I've been leaking motor oil everywhere, but I don't know I don't know, I don't know what to make of it, because I think this is a more general they need to be made. I guess he put it this way too, when I read a tweet, try to read? It would like the best possible interpretation, meaning like what is the wisdom is tweet shape

the post to what I think a large number of people not large, but some fraction tried to see what is the worst possible interpretation the street and they want to date. They want to destroy you for that. Worse interpretation, like they wanna, There's people I'm already aware of this with me, and certainly with a lot of people there waiting for me to fail. They want me to be like this guy talks about love all the time. What may be some dark a guy billy, what retailer campaign they want you to be in pain, because they die I'll. Tell you exactly why? Because this is why I am so for being white pills and being for hope, because if you are black held meaning, if you think it's pointless were all done, if you're wasting your breath, if you have any counter

samples to this thesis if there is even a little bit. I hope your entire parts is false through right. So if it's in its kind o, how, like you, have all these stories of people who are alike, painting swastikas, who aren't not seize the just? Show that all all this not seem so I'm gonna be no kind of force, the conclusion so for them when they see use thriving you're out of the mediocre person with a crappy show, but your demonstrating that people can succeed. This bothers them, so you are and how it can succeed, thereby yeah, see because that why haven't they said now, you're a counter to their world view, and that is going to cause anxiety, you have data that contradicts other data. In your mind, your worldview. This is that the a your mindset- this is a big issue for them, so anyone listening to this there. Lloyd by the look of my face. Remember the UKIP We do it better than me and you should, but also

Would you failing look like like, let suppose this podcast went for whatever views you had to one hundred views in episode that still success? you are talking to people you like having commerce issues when important issues you're having a good time, thereby giving itself? How is that a failure? If I have dinner with a friend of mine, this zero viewer and we enjoy that time. That is the height of human success. When you are share happiness, happy joy, joy over love, so what's the difference being joy and love like a mouse I think joy is easier to attain it's more common. You could share it with everyone. Give me an example of joy. There was a moment of joy for your reply. I could you a great example of joy and this for it in the absurdest mindset. Ok,

I love having a bad meal at a restaurant and I'll give you you can see why if you go with your friend, it takes you forty five minutes to get seated. Okay, I'm starving waiters, not paying attention to you. They bring your water. It's got a gotta in it. They get the food wrong. They comes out again it's right, but it's cold at a certain point you're like ok, I'm hungry, I'm living added to this is something that you, if you re a dinner, we could talk about this for years, because how great is it that the worst thing that could happen- to me is I gotta wait an hour for this meal. That's gonna be cooked wrong. Right. That to me, is joy. Is holding on to that idea that happiness and thrive our possible, even when in the moment it sir everything's, going the wrong way, every moment have the capacity to fill you with joy that yes allows the shit moments in the good moment. Yes, that see that's the way it

about love is like I love life, yes, and in because life can generate every everything, the pain, the laws, but also just like simple or complicated bliss. All of that I just love all that and that, because it cause me with a with a kind of, I guess joy, but joy has a connotation that is supposed to be somehow positive, like you're supposed to be smiling, ah to me know search for meaning with viktor frankl it'll. Just it's yours, you're in the holocaust, you're in a concentration camp, just having a little bit of food day, you didn't expect you will have or even just thinking about food or what or what about, there's a kid there. You tell them a funny story. You crack em up yeah, like you, take away this child's pain for like five minutes. That is the height of joy there. So to me, like all of like life, is like infant,

the full of possibility for joy, yes, and that's what I mean by love because of times like romantic love, is what people think about when they think love. But to me it's all like part of the same thing, and it's almost like love with a romantic love or love with a friend. Friendship is like you, both notice, each other. It's like dogs, they looked at each other and they look at the thing there instead and about how to see each other and that moment of joy you share that moment. Joy together, like the restaurant restaurant. Yet if you're, both almost without conspired ring notice. The absurdity of how shady this meal is an and like that, that little glimmer of realization and that's that's. What makes life beautiful you mentioned your grandmother and the love you were thinking returning there at the plans go delayed, but what hoping pharma that trip of goma

russia gone back to ukraine. Would you hope to get out of it? But what do you think you will feel a lot of things? First of all, going with my body chris williamson? He hosts the modern, was part cast. He is one of my closest friends. We ve never met Oh really. We ve never met he's breeze. In Britain he's tried he's trying to get his s, overheard austin he's filling out. Its form should now he's too good looking crime. We call him up I apollo and I'm lucky. So right away? You have a buddy comedy cause we're gonna film. It right. You have these two guys who, on paper but you're, very dissimilar, but were very close large, where you similar I think we're both very intense people. Very. Strong emotionally, we very ambitious in the sense that nine terms a career, but we want to grab life by the short harris. Gonna thing we're just both like good experiences.

Do you hear bench more than your? Oh yeah illusions he's a lot. Of course I mean the guy's jacked he's just As you know, he is so good luck ignore those guys who is most device. No! No! No! No he's! Not! If you look at got his instagram chris relax. Isn't it is the handle its like heads had to its head to toe lock up. Italy's perfect, narrower as great he he added does he have cause. I need that is your friends at his acts, as is the case. He forgot he's an under a muddle I tell em you deal just us too. British and american and just two different dudes is going to be a lot. But although to be fair, as you know, I'm an underwear model now as well so yeah we're going to talk that in a second, maybe but yeah

She thought it read. Dot com yeah this episode, although this episode is brought to you by sheath underwear, I were going to get some pictures eventually, I think we might vehicle. Ah, yes, I have a my phone. We're going will happen. We could because shitting right, you could slice it in right here, so to be What's he go with someone who is a very close eye when we meet him talk like every day right so decide new generally cares about you who he's very, very grounded right. So I lot at times I'll have like some concern and he's really good, and if you listen to show at slicing through the night is being like hold on a second. I can't do the accent yet have you considered a b and c, because you know whenever had the situation. This is what I did so he's really good with that and so to have a first of all, just like two buddies on there is a real alot of one? Second of all, I know that if it it's gonna get be variants. Hence so for you, you left russia later than I did held your eighteen thirteen,

wait so you remember it I'm sure very, very well. I left when I was one and a half to. I remember it all to go to the streets where you know my family had to go through the stuff to see the you know this. They came to love, they slaughtered all the Jews, I mean to have that little memorial there. That's there now answer, just look around and no yesterday best. Basically, they can here they round that everyone up, but also from the other side. You had the stalinist coming in and starving or the people. It is just too know that so much horror and death there's this quote. I saw It's about a woman who went to auschwitz and she has made the like grass grows here, because we think you know that it comes to the nature of evil that you're going to go there. This is going to be the pits of hell or whatever there's birds. You know there there's you know Robbins and around looking for their worms and whatever they think is perfectly nice in you. You, you stand there to understand that so much suffering happened here or there is gonna, be

Mary jarring. I know that it's going to be an issue because I speak russian, not ukrainian, add to speak russian to ukrainians is like a big deal. So that's great concern, I am also worried by going to russia, because every russian has this idea that, even though they just met you, they philip if they're in a position to tell you what you're doing wrong with your life, and you should be doing it if they're a cabdriver. I have no tolerance for unsolicited advice and based at all, that's me horrible they're, going to be telling me. I speak russian better because the gravity she produce kicker, the one chick I'm not. hearing it I'm not interested in hearing it so that I think, and also you know, given my upcoming book white pelon, covering what happened back in the day with under stalin ism and later to see. This was that you Blanca, that this was the basement where they would. You know you know, and this is something that might I realized theirs pearl film, the death of Stalin, which has got it, does what I do with north korea puts a humorous spin,

and then, when you take a step back and realise what actually saying is just like is very disturbing. How winston was dying. He had a is laying there in a pile of his own pass, is unconscious. He be fright before he died. He thought the doctors were all plotting against. Him said they were being tortured to confess that they were trying to murder him. They had to get the doctors out of the torture chambers to attend to him, and they did it so this kind of thing too, but go there like red square and see. This is where it happened. To see lenin's body like this is the guy who Emma Goldman yelled at it's gonna we really do because I've worked so much in this space jarring, an intense and emotional and as as intensive for me sitting here talking to you about it to see. And to see the faces and the sea cyrillic everywhere, you know that in brighton beach in brooklyn, it's gonna, I'm sure it's gonna do uh huh. Huge number on me because, as well as western and as the deploy medical,

It says the russians will. I am. This is still where I came from. So it's no matter to see it faced face. I don't know I'm going to react, but I don't think it's gonna be like me. You assembled a number of essays from anarchists thinkers and a new book called the anarchist handbook. You mentioned. Emma Goldman. What interesting things do these thinkers agree on it, what do they disagree on the adequacy and handbook that comes the website? from seventeen. Ninety two, I think my essays a lesson for twenty fourteen which a friend of mine who so kind of a mediocre scientists can be reading for the audio book. also pockets of vodka. I'd ever is definitely not a patch vested with its words, but he was so what they all agreed on is the illegitimacy of government and also the

malevolence of state actors and the consequences of garments, so they range in terms that most people would easily regard as either left or right wing, but it tackles the nature of governments and also creates positive non state alternatives from do you really did many different angles. The slogan I have is the black flag, which the tradition of lack of anarchism the black flag comes in many colors

so they were really all over the map in terms of what they're, for, but their disagreement is about the nature of state and the nature of power, and- and it's very edifying, because this is an ideology- that's been in many ways swept under the rug. No one takes this seriously grow up and that I can allow people to sit down and read these essays and see for themselves just how beautiful this tapestry over the decades and centuries has been woven about people who generally believed in freedom as the most important and how to. Act surmise that for a society for maybe, is useful to talk about a few contracting thinkers in their soldier. One is LEO tolstoy, oh yeah, Who was, I think, not many people know, is an anarchist, yes a christian and anarchist yeah, so he

came to despise government for his deceit and his violence, but to him? The the christian principles of nonviolence, I think, are important. Oh yeah, and this kind of pacifists, cardio and set of you know it's better to someone to punch you than to punch them back so he's, in that way, lisa red. He influenced I'm ok and gandhi. Would you think about this flavour color of the attic flag of non violence, non violent opposition? I I will put the caviar that a bothers me when people bring up emel cake cause he's become so corporate and everyone just brings him up with knowing about him. One of the things that martin luther king did so very well was that he forced people to face the consequences of what they putting forward you wanna be racist. You wanna be for Jim crow. You wanted for segregation. Ok, it's easy for you to them. can we living room now turn on your news and you see men and women

in suits being attacked by dogs being attacked by fire hose in beaten by cops just so, they could sit on the fund, the bus and now for a lot of people who were still racist, who were still had Adam for black people are watching this and it's gonna, be a lot harder to be like I'm. Ok with this, I'm ok with human beings, even ones I regard as some bad or inferior to be beaten and attacked by a train, dogs and they're not doing anything, a response that strikes to, I think, a very basic

picture of especially american, like okay, whatever you're, for I'm not for people getting beaten and attacked when they're not really doing anything. So I think up. Pacifism is something that's very easy to make fun of, but people don't underestimate how powerful it is. For someone to say you can do what you want to me, I'm not going to fight you back. I just want to live peacefully and have the same rights as you and to say screw you you should get beaten it that's a hard pill for a lot. People to swallow. So I think he was really and gandhi, of course, as well were excellent in that regard, as a limit of might give value, listen to it, you know they both been beata further gerda saints, but their strategy worked very, very well for their purposes. So I think just all of us when you, someone you know in this kind of christian. I know you're on obviously something very highly crescendo, but you ve some money,

was willing to you I'll, take a punch. I say you could do whatever you want to me. I'm not going to hurt somebody else instinctively, and maybe this is kind of a hack. Most people want to side with that guy, stepping between be like. Okay, let's take a step back because whatever led to this is not tenable. We need to go back to the drawing board. If the consequence is people are having these as a result of of my decisions. Action, so I think that aspect of anarchism is very very in certain context. Healthy and much smarter and more sophisticated than people give credit for, and let's also point out that tolstoy wrote war and peace and he wrote at a creditor. So this was not some naive or innocent. Whatever we want to use, he knew the nature of evil. He knew bad things get so he was

Saying at all that human beings are inherently nice and kind. He was saying it's much more effective to not fight back and to force them to face that. I I I'll give you another example I was talking to. I was in the shop, trigonometry and I was talking to the house and one them talked about how someone he knew had been. Did the gulags or his mom was born, the gorilla grandma and after stolen I'd and the soviet liver, lies and lost, the people go, legs were freed by khrushchev and and so on and so forth. He see, I don't know this many of the or some let's say some of the guards of the July killed themselves because they had genuinely believed that everyone in these camps was there for a reason and when they found out that these people were completely innocent, didn't even have trials and that they were the ones forced them to work themselves to death. Are they couldn't deal with that guilt? So when you are a pacifist in our non none retaliatory

and you're, forcing someone who's using force like look what you're doing look what you've become for some people, some people don't care. You know, like the guide. Scare tactics like I mentioned earlier, were full lot of others, they're going to be like. Okay is this? Who I wanted to grow up to be? They will have that little flame of conscious that you and I talked about earlier. There will be like how did I get to the point where this this lady, who wants to ride the bus and she's you know, lovely dressed put together and I have a sending a dog on her. What kind of person to my for some of those people, they're gonna, be like? Ok, I can't be a part of this. Are you understand the politics? I still am racists, but I'm not going to take part in his atrocity without reserve for him from the individual perspective, perhaps see he calls a christian, but listening to the voice of conscience.

like whatever that is in you solve for tolstoy, it seems like anarchism from the individual points Active is silencing the rest of the world and listening to the the for him, probably given voice of caution, yes, and so that that's what it means to live embody anarchism for an entire body. Christianity out with it Let's, he would see those as basic, yes corrected the other in terms of forms of government. The christian Government is one. That's no government correct. What do you think about that as advice for an individual turn, the other? do. You think I tend to believe that that's a really good way to live. I think it's very underrated- and this is me talking, I think, a lot at times

when someone lets was you having an argument and that you have to you have to pick your battles right? Let's suppose you having a heated argument, if someone says something very cruel to you, we have attempted to double down hit back twice as hard, but it is someone who had all cares about you with their just at the moment, and you just stop and you just say: did you hear we just said to me for some cases that person will take a step back and be like just like we, when I snapped at Michael at bitstamp years ago, I'd be like wow? Okay, this this is bad. This is bad, I'm sorry and they kind of you know it's kind of like they have to get to ten.

Before they re control of the lead to use your language faggot yeah for overflow. I please that, but at present they're going to they're going to just twist the knife, but I think this is a very useful technique and also you can also sleep well at night cause. You could be like as much as this person tried to hurt me. I still didn't reciprocate and yeah. I I took that punch and it sucks, but at least I never said anything that I could feel guilty about exactly. Do you think that, ultimately, a good way to implement anarchy your personal life. Anarchy implementing anarchy in your personal life just means respecting people's bound, is. It means not forcing people to do things otherwise would want to do. I think you then to take a case by case like they're, so many human interactions that are required for life and

tension and all those kinds of things is not always be naive. Nevertheless, I believe no and I set the hat on outside the other. Had that's why I didn't take up the hair cause it's like photo with the ring. I was starting to feel powerful. I wanted to give you orders, and now I I just. I think there is a ways dealing with the tensions that are natural to human interactions. They can He simply you know it's not as simple as saying you want to respect the freedom of others and the boundaries of others. It's like you both have to agree on stuff, a work, something out

and the mechanisms of that agreement. The game theory that agreement requires different hacks and strategies and the the question is for an anarchist. Collective, that's well functioning, what kind of hacks, what kind of ways of behaviour are more likely to be productive and not that that's almost like the question. Do you want to turn the other cheek, or do you want to stand our ground really firmly on somebody's, an asshole to you? You walk away or when somebody's an asshole to you turn the other cheek. And give him a chance to rise to the best version in themselves and then find common ground kind of thing is: it is an open question of how to foreigners collectors when there's people with the difficult childhoods ended the law that kind of stuff is also comes down to what is really for this person is out of character. If you and I got into it

agreement. All of a sudden, you started getting very personal for study very hurt within a be like this, that a character for let us I could be like. Well, let's take a pause here like you're getting heated and I'm trying to work this out what's going on here and you get it kind of a meadow conversation, but again you and I have a relationship of mutual respect so as opposed to a stranger, you know who's. Yet, just once a piece of you, with just like I don't? Oh you are coming at me, not correct. I don't have to reciprocate in kind, I'm not going to shoot you, but I'm not going to pretend that you deserve respect when you're treating me with such contempt- and I would I do differ, especially with people I know cause it's just this- a smart, long term, game theory as well as the right thing to do. I do try to give them the benefit that a first strike, because if you're gonna go aggro, you can't go back, but you could always go from like let me hear them out and then then I could go agro, so there is a big asymmetry there, and in this I mean, I think even has the answer to this question is: is that the right strategy to me game theoretical

it was. The right strategy is to will reciprocity is where game theory says it's the right. Shout actually they did the prisoner's dilemma they found tit for tat is the one that's the most advantageous. So that's for one. It's perfectly rational actors, but when you have, I mean there's noise that the there's a I think benefit to just even if they keep being shit, due to you still being nice to them, while the verse where girls are turned off, some people are like, if you're in a relationship and duchess girls, but girls like some people, your kind to them. They find you less attractive radioactive that that is kind of this weird. What am I hosty do like you're. Only to me, if I mean to you, wanna, be mean, but then I'm getting punished for doing the right thing. That's another tricky one and adding this

it's nothing that necessarily do with anarchism. So much as like you know, human beings infinitely complex, we don't know for know the back story like, for example, just yesterday Jay, whose one of my closest friends I had a dinner with a bunch of people I couldn't bring a plus for so I didn't, he wasn't invited, he didn't know the circumstances. He just thought we were having dinner without him, he was hurt once I spelled it out. He completely understood it. I felt horrible because for me to have any my friends feel left out is just a very, very cruel thing and I was I felt bad and I'm glad to apologizing and publicly that that's end up being the circle that's the but yeah it's it's. It's a lot of jobs are also plato's cave when you're dealing with somebody else. You have very very limited information about the background of circumstances and that's why I will always if it's someone I have even little a little bit of with relationship with try to give them the doubt, because doubt because such found this this comes from being a co author. When you caught their books, you walking other people shoes, you don't know, what's the lot of information, so it

it's a lot at times it's just a misunderstanding, but is not a fundamentally anarchists question of how we figure out this puzzle you and complexities in order too, for voluntary collectors like we have to figure out how to make feet. People feel good. to make people. I great that's fair and in that, I think not only anarchists have think about. This is my point, of course: well, but we have to think about him more than others do right. I feel it I should try to argue against anarchism at some point out of love, love and some because people out of joy. The people enjoy Seeing me, what is it like Ben appears, argues against a tree old, femininity destroyed sizing actors with lasses last illness. Is this video Michael MAO's destroys a marxist russian communist pig, so anarchism is opposed to hire keys, but that's left Eric S, ear

communism yeah, the state with their many hierarchies that are not the state you we have a hierarchy here. This is your show on differential to you are Ok, rigid hierarchies forced hierarchies is the worst. I s. Fourth hierarchies are gas, so do you think is possible. its humans, one left, on their own cord day. They form heart is naturally, yes, inevitably might inevitably, which is why this year at the left, anarchists, I think it's not a coherent thing to god, argue for a non hierarchical relationships, even in theory, it doesn't make sense to me- and I I know the the the old school anna Well call me stupid or unformed, but I I I've never been able to read my head around. Claim that you may have relationships that hierarchy right. So I guess a certain sense of which were living in an anarchism now- and I don't mean just like, because the the nations, as you said, are in anarchism relative to each other, but is in the united states, is the collective those formed in anarchy- and this is just the

collective that were operating under this hierarchy? Those naturally formed it wasn't the unites states that naturally form. is swarmed forces and by fear. But to your point I I stress distraught. The book. We say this anarchism is not a locations relationship, so yeah you and I do have a hierarchy and that this is your showed, but now, but neither plus really has an authority over the other like I'm here voluntarily. You can kick me out if you want, I can leave at any want. Neither of us has the power to force the other to be in this relationship. We've chosen, my lawyer. Ah you know I defer to his judgment, he's not forcing me to do it. He gives me his advice and I could take it or leave it, with the doktor said, there is a clearly like who's in charge and whose not charge but they're not in a position to impose their will. Anybody else- and you could very easily see John, is stephanie lawyer and Stephanie johns doctor and in each of those context one has its position of ostensible authority over the other, so anarchism is in fact not

utopian crazy thing. It is the norm of human relationships. Where you meet people you're, not necessarily equal someone's can be taller. Seventy can be stronger. Some are stronger, smarter, wealthier. What others but you're, not at all thinking I am here and I tell you what to do- and you are legally or more the obligated to follow my wishes that that is the basis of anarchism in what way is the united states imposing by force something on you d? Think if leave your house, you will go to jail, where's, my money being take for you, taxation, but dont, show the freedom not operate under that. Nobody like eighty alec technically. If someone comes up to you, bugs you and says you're money or your life. You are making a choice but that what the anarchist argument as they are now in a position to force you to make that choice. That is now

morally binding, even though they have practically the power to force you into that dilemma. But you have the freedom to live under the united states or not so so, even I see that argument is, if you don't like it leave right now. Sally leave I geographically, but there's there's ways to live outside the force of the united states. There's ways it is very difficult. operate that way, but that, like saying you cannot run the mugger, which is true where the issue is. Does that mugger have the right to tell you at gunpoint? you they give me your money or I'm gonna, shoot you or secret plan c we run away is that person a moral actor and the anarchist answer is never, and the def have just one more thing. The anarchist view is the difference to that mugger and the government is only an error

legitimacy literally their morally identity. So is it possible that every hierarchy leg is big enough and successful? Now such that it can monopolize a bunch of services it provides. Isn't it always going to be a more well in your sense. The way the united states government is amoral, while I I don't want to say just like the united states government is immoral, because that implies the united states. Government is uniquely or especially immoral, documents that I just want to clarify that cause. I know you didn't mean that, and I want that to be the implication, and can you repeat the question or so like we won't every rock. I said last night: this is so that's progress economics here. So the argument is in any market at a certain point, things tend to centralize and then that an organization de facto can dictate price convicted so on and so forth. That is completely a historical. If you look at any market, the trend is always towards decentralization, the music industry right when we were kids

There are four or five record labels. They were the ones who made all the songs that you're going to see in the billboard top one hundred with a few exceptions. Now anyone can go to director market or if you look at tv stations right, it went from CBS Nbc, a b c. Then you got fox, then you had cable, which is hundred now you have satellite, we shall sounds around the world and you have you too, which is literally infinite, so ass technology improves and as wealth increases, which is a function of free enterprise. You are going to we have more and more choice, even with in a monopoly coca cola right out. This is an example. I used, I think, of the new right when we were kids, every terrible comedian would be like. Oh now, they've got diet, caffeine, free coke. What's next, it's like yeah, that's good! You want to have what was his name came in the guy who invented the segway. If you go it, dean came in. If you go into some restaurant

right now: you will have those machines you have like eighty kinds of cokes and and you could have whatever flavor you want to add to a great shout cherry, lemon lime, so on and so forth. So in any field, going to have more and more competition, you're, going to have less competition and less choices when the state gets involved, because the state once control this, once one big neck with one leash around it, and that way could just pull that dog in one direction or another: and you saw this last year with the lockdown carol roth wrote. This amazing book called the worn small business and she talked about. We have seen for the first time in history, a mass five wealth transfer from small and medium business towards organizations like target and amazon who made trillions of dollars last year, whereas mom and pop, which, to me at least, is like the acme of american. Achieving you come to me. Because you have a fruit, stand a laundromat. You make your socks whatever it is clear that unique, artisan, creating something special there either.

She didn't last, whereas target at amazon did so when you have the state involvement, it will always be in favour of Jeff basis said for the simple reason that it's gonna be a lot easier for jeff basis to get nancy policy in which Mcconnell no phone than is for me, making socks and at sea. But your sense is that toby- less and less overtime. Jeff basis is like whatever industry will look at this, be less this trend towards decentralization across all industries at the end, when I say this. centralization, I just mean choice right. So, if you look at it again, networks, you're, gonna you in the eighties and you had a network just for algae bt issues forestall it's gonna, be complete, heretical, that's I can happen and there is not

we enough necessity by genocide that have an audience. Then there was something called logo they had that. There's lots of other shows like that in this debate. So more specifically, it look at websites. Yet I am positive that you and I, if we wanted to look up of breeding guinea pigs, which find thousands, websites, about different breeze and all the other stuff. Twenty years ago, thirty years ago, like even have to books and they're not and be dynamic as these new breeze or developed. So at the same time, it does. following on your argument. It does seem easy to move and emigrate from from state to state within the united states and other countries, do you think? That's a form of freedom that too bodies anarchism where you can resist the the force of state by choosing where you live to some extent, but the line people's someday

boomers have got me on twitter. If I'm going up the police or something it'd be like vita, like america get out of here, and I tell them, freedom means I do what I want. Not what you want. Freedom means I don't have to move you don't have to move. Free speech is a good example. It doesn't mean I have to be on twitter, like twitter. Has the right to ban me but of saying, is I'm saying something and you don't like it too bad you're, the one who has to accommodate me, because I have a right to do what I want with my person as long as I'm being peaceful sit. So I guess I'm trying to get to the difference between state and what you would naturally want in anarchy, which is like a sick purity companies you're all those things they will, as they become success for start looking more more like the state, because you get to elect you, give them money they got. You have leaders as what's the difference between a government and a very successful service provider in

in anarchism with this gets a little confused in america as big companies necessarily have it hand in hand? We have government ended up in bed with them. The answer to this question is that long became one and thankfully it's all in the attic assembled. There is an say by Murray roth barred who Dave Smith is this? Is the esa convert Dave Psmith, so maybe it's not as good as it could have been, otherwise called anatomy. The state and morocco points out points out. That state is the only agency in a country which gets its goods through force this date. Is the only agency that is not a producer but inherently a parasite, because it does not get its money voluntarily, but through taxation and by imposing its values on a country? That is what makes a state uniquely different from, let supposed amazon or barnes noble or a target Jeff basis does not have the authority. or the more legitimacy to get an army and go into somebody's house where Andrew cuomo or run dissent, is donald trump

Brok obama certainly do, but is it possible that you refrain subject debases does if he, yet if he hired security force right also is possible to reframe taxation as a form of payment like it up. If it was done much better. If you could pay this collective, that we call government in ways where you could pay for things that you care for so much your money would be much more directly contribute to the things you care for whether you, if you care for service. A healthcare you'll be able to buys essentially insurance from the government. I why insurance ensuring the governess post, insurance or insurance company? What are you perceive the difference, units hacks and price? Do you see the difference? It yes no on the surface level, I'm trying to get in deeply to say, there's a lot of similarities, but but I'm saying

there's one essential difference, which is taxes are imposed on you and you have no choice as the here's. An exam Well, my my book ego and hubris, my biography of him. It goes for five hundred dollars on Ebay, someone paid for it some crazy person. Will show me that its on amazon for three thousand dollars and link that you could put a million for it. It's you could charge whoever price you want. The question is: is someone pay that three thousand for it is someone paying that million fort in if it's actually the buyer, who establishes the poor? because the seller can put any price tag. He wants eighty trillion dollars, but unless someone's paying that amount and clearing the market, that price has literally no, meeting. Your body is not an indicator of value or worth or market price taxation, on the other hand, is by fiat. I can decide it's fair that you legs have to pay. Forty percent and Joe has to pay. Forty five percent, Joe and lex are in no position be like this prices too high. That not only is that money set

completely out of their hands its take for people who were employees it's taken out of their paychecks before they even see it they don't have the choice to be like you know what I agree, that the government has the right to pay taxation. Here's my check for forty percent. It's going on its scope, these different paradigm than you are. What you put for. This is the guy it provides a lot of services in the current system right, but there's no service the government provides that cannot be. That would not. provide a better more efficiently and with more choices in a market. What does have hypothesis know that very likely? Nor does not at this academic, just you very easily I love already flustered. This is this is what this is about. People like it so cute. robot over you put on the hair, but as the fires that, though the spoke of a god of his ears, what is price,

yeah. Okay, so it will tax love. You know, like your people, like I, I think, of the government as a kind of subscription service, none that that's the anarchist view. The anarchist view of governor of a private security would be a subscription service. So yeah, that's exactly correct, but everyone hey. It's, when you signed up to a gem, and then you realize in the contract, is very difficult to cancel that the membership, and then they up the price. I mean that's, there's a lot of unpleasant things with with a with a subscription service that then you can elect to go to another subscription service for years or you could go on yelp and complain, and if there's enough people do that the gym will be receptive. Look at the power of yelpers the power of the vote. While this we could talk about that too. So you're saying yelp is more effective than a voting. Yes, the thing is I

I agree with you, but you gotta take a further step. You say that yelp as ethical and moral and voting is a moral or like not voting, but government is our moral so. It is not always one more efficient than the other you're saying like, because I would say government socks at doing what it does. And he's gotten a lot better at it and I believe it can get he's getting better get smaller and leverage is companies more and more. But you saying. No, no government is funding. until as an idea get. In the way of companies. That should be doing those things in wrath. I I just think that companies. When you take a government will start looking my government data, something looks like somebody has not made the same. If someone puts out a yamaha,

to fill in and they go too sure they're, not jewish right. The basic objective of government, because you can leave like I apologise that this is stupid. Twitter, cliche statement church, but. But your opposition to this idea of leaving the united states is that it's just it's a lot of effort as it is. It's too much friction at the to the option. The optician is. I in the introduction to the book I say anarchism can be summed up in one sentence. You do not speak for me. Everything else is application, so the claim that somebody, I've never met Or who I voted against, let's say I hate donald trump. I despise him. You know I want Hillary Clinton to be president too bad trump's, your president, but that's not what I want. The idea that this person, can come on me and make any claims onto one second of my time, as opposed to try to persuade me. That is something that I an anarchist regard as inherently evil and

hence it over to operate large organisations. I give you see this would cut the currency, this governance, you have to make difficult decisions, the block size wars for bitcoin sure so you will. There is a voting mechanism, often with membership. When your subscription service that will see the thing is you're using these words and you're switching definitions because like if I go to a store, I can technically say I'm voting for tropicana orange juice as opposed to another one, but to kind of say: oh, while you're making a choice. Therefore, every choice is a vote. I I don't. I think that that's something that the venn diagram is no, I literally mean vote in his case, not money. Okay, there are some decisions. Like should: bitcoin have increases blocksize, okay, there's a bunch of different they're called soft fork. Hard force, I'm not saying you shall never vote stockholders, have to vote right, exec, but there's no pretense pierce, listen this. If you want to build robots right, you would sit down the company you you rise. We like we should do

kind of rubbish. It has got a robot. The stockholders would have a vote or the board in proportion to their investment. Firm me who knows nothing about robots. I am the idea that I am in a position to walk in and be like. This is what you should do is crazy and bizarre and wrong. I'm not indifferent position. So what democracy does? Is it forces people who run businesses well to run businesses poorly by people who don't know how to run businesses at all? That's the cat! That's one of the many concerns but you're saying that the fundamental property of the state I have a sense of it could become as effective as what we think of us companies. I mean that as this is why they can't, because the state does not have access to data. The way that firms do

and this is one of looted. The ground music is great points where he called the calculation problem. If I am looking at comic books right and I have detective comics if detective comics, twenty six is one thousand and detective comics, twenty eight is one thousand and detective comics. Twenty seven is Fifty thousand. That is telling me that, even if I don't know anything about comics that detective comics, twenty seven is either very very scarce for some reason or very, very desirable. It's the first appearance of batman whatever, but you don't need to know that to just look at this data and be like okay, this is the market. Tell me something if prices set by the government which the government is a monopoly. I have no way of picking those winners or losers. I don't have that dad of supply and demand of an entire nation or a world of people, making individual decisions and having price be dynamic and informing me as the the organization where I should allocate my resources, so the price

a really strong signal. Yes, that allows you to arm to operator voluntary, collective or people get what they want, I don't buy what they don't want and it tells me what to produce but not to produce, and it also is great because if I see this podcasting industry, which didn't exist five years ago, and now these people are making bank. That tells me as someone who is an investor okay, they're, making fifty per cent profit over ten percent profit on their capital in the plant in the streets. Two per cent- if I I'm going to further my capital to this ten percent and that's going to lower the profit rate as as that builds up, and that is how markets are regulated solitarily, but the word government I just think it's possible to have collective, that of of if human beings that represent others based on their voluntary they got. Yes, of course you have private govern

it's alright governors at a company you're going to have a ceo, you're gonna have a board directors yeah, but then you I I just it starts to look very similar to me. A successful private governance mechanism at a scale The united states starts looking a whole lot like our government in the united states. What's jet, what's haven't I even amazon, I dont think as anything close to large size, wise or much. Wiser. Power was no so you're saying you just it's even state. It's almost if anything at that size, you want to keep things smaller and I don't I their markets are not going to cut a combine to that level of the state because no Jeff bass It will never be in a position to tell everyone. America, I'm gonna, take forty percent of your money before even see it. That to me is actually unclear. We don't know that

be true where that google or amazon can't go to the size? If you take away the us government, I'm not so sure that amazon can go to the size of cake. So worst case scenario is rebecca restarted right, that's not worst case scenario, this is. The concern is that google is gonna, be the federal government. That's not the concern thing like this is what looks like when google is the federal government, is that it is said to me. The the us government is our best attempt so far to have large scale representation of people's interests. It really sucks, but it's our best attempt so far, and the question is how to improve it like. If you take away all that, if you take away the us government, I'm trying to see how do we improve And that love that scale of representation of people's letter, let me give you one example that that people could wrap their heads around very easily, I'm against government police monopoly and for private security right you don't have to be an anarchist under,

this: can everyone agree, or at least as a hypothesis ever can wrap the heads around in here concerning one one right? There, I've heard this diamond calls for a chilling there's, a kidney closet is families being murdered outside, right. He asked the call nine one he's whispering it's it's horrifying to here. There's no reason why the number I call for my family's being murdered is the same. Never I call for the fire department is saved, number recover, an ambulance. What, if, instead of operate like uber buttons in your phone. If there is a real emergency, like someone's gun flyers, something killed, you press this and it sends instead of the one police district, whatever companies nearby, you have a bunch of them and they are the ones who are going to come to you. How to save you, people. Rather has run that very easily. That is one very clear way to go from having a government security monopoly towards having a more free entry

I system. So when you apply that to pretty much anything, it doesn't become that complicated of alternative. So what I would go criticizes, but I believe the government said the parenting thing we've talked about earlier. I think he creates a say if space for gover a four on four safe spaces, I'm not going to last you about that. No, I want people to be safe, but for a safe space for entrepreneurship. So I believe that he got good government horses Gimme a gimme, a secular sure? I'm sorry, I'm sorry you're right, you're right, I'm sorry, I think go. And gives up opportunity for companies to out compete it? Yes? So he s fedex hundred percent, not a question. So I believe you need to have private school government to give a chance for you. Ps Fedex, for space ex owes an x in there too

sick to pop up and then government will naturally back off from that place. So, like you, but We need the innovators steppin and build the thing. Ok, but you can't just when has governed ever backed off, though that never happens. I back while vote for from from, from a fedex and gps from us at base x from the way you amazon pulled on the? U S, postal service still competes with fedex and, u p s so here's the think not nearly ass well, but they still exist. But the point is, though dying, but you, ps and fedex are tat so not only they're paying for their own company they're paying for this competitor. This is the essential difference. Imagine if you didn't have gps or excuse in the federal government with no post office, so you had fedex, you have dhl, you have us serves the many others how about in this scenario, you p s, has the capacity to take twenty percent of fedex? Is the actual and courage money and put their own pocket and they never do anything return. This is

to be an enormous advantage of you p, and then, when you add the addition that gps is not necessarily going to be more efficient, the others, this is going to be a huge distortion. The market. Can you imagine if your podcast, you just automatically got twenty percent of users, the else of gaming. Would there be any incentive for you to be greater? You could just send your laurels and do whatever you want even more than now imagine more than enough as your robot unlike imagination, but I think this has to be is, of course you can the complete without government, a government body to hear again as it shows on earth. The chosen do without government declared the question why the question, the that that safety net that's needed for entrepreneurship des needed for out, I'm sorry to say, but I have assessed

there needs to be a bit of a safety net for freedom. I much more comfortable with singing assistance for freedom. Then you need when for entrepreneurs the beauty of markets is with your startup. If you have a start up and it completely fails, the only person is screwed. Is you and your investors? If I'm a government- and I make a start up- the entire society fails? Iraq war right. If I have this political cockamamie plan, I dont everyone else does have a choice: the art both funding it and sometimes even drafted or forced into it right the safety net, the Let's getting back to the early anarchists one of the things that I admired about them, the anarcho communist, the old school left. Anarchists, is people, don't remember what context they were in. They were in context. Without a welfare state, there immigrating a huge numbers from eastern europe. People are you gotta tell museum in new york. People like twelve to room kids are working factories or eighty

the work in factories or they have starved it's not their parents to love them is that the parents than have birth control, which is a felony, and they also were in a position to put food on the table for their kids because their uneducated and the a peg nothing? So you could understand why Emma goldman alexander bergmann production and- and all these other figures were like this is untenable. We see cartel de with eighty thousand mentions, whereas this lady, whose husband died at age, thirty who's never been to high school or even junior high school, has ten kids how she gonna put food intake

it's not going to happen. You can understand why they would be like alright. We need to seize this money and distribute around the people. That makes a lot of sense in a contemporary context where food is much cheaper, where shelter to some extent is more available when medical care, if people were so oblivious to how bad things were, that we see things are bad now, so we assumed that they were better than some context. They were much much worse there in many contexts. So, if you're going to make an argument for government for me, The strongest argument is like food stamps or like us, free lunches for children, because I agree that would be very inefficient and it's gonna probably make them obese because you gonna have nabiscos law. to make sure that if you're going to have this a protein, you are you're not gonna, give the kids an oreo. Aren't you these kids are a poor. You want them to have some pleasure and that's going to have deleterious effects, but if the choice is an inefficient government program,

starvation, that is one where, as an anarchist Ivan, I could easily see making the argument for that one evening, I think very clearly. Private charity would be more efficient and distribute it more effectively, but I I that point- I don't really care about efficiency. If you're throwing out food to make sure these kids get fed, I don't care. So would I engagement in military conflict be one of the biggest negative, it's about the state to you. Yeah of course, warriors war. Is the state at its worst there's genetic away war, where'd you much defensive instead, an aggressive yeah, the ivy, wouldn't that be a huge step forward

Yet what is said regarded we're. All this is to drive me crazy were taught us kids in school. That war is a last resort, and I agree with that, and yet in when you look at the corporate press, war is always the first response, and these people do not talk about what war means, though, show examples during the june did bush years of soldiers coming home in caskets, which it already is unacceptable price in many cases, for me, they don't even pretend to care about the people overseas, whose countries we ve ransacked and lives. You have ruined and issues that role that what you gonna do not ransacked those countries so that war is it to me as the state at its worst see. I think that there is value from small government that doesn't engaging wars. I do think that the car- have collectively you imagine functioning well, would look like the best one. No government- that I imagine so it maiden endorsement

I see them as the same line. I think a lot of this just terminology. I have no problem saying that using radicalism incorrectly and to go for what you want. I have no problem with that. or anything, really because, like a second life is beautiful, but nevertheless you wrote the essay. Why I'm not now to vote this time or ever the that I won't this year or any other year or any year and the basic? I hope you do a better job reading it. Then you just read that title. I guess it'll take as many takes as necessary. I read in a russian and pessimism, goods is translated. the russian authorities- words where'd, you find this guy we carried out as anarchy, this what you wanted, like your basic summary,

It is when we see, if pressed the simple explanation I have for refusing to vote. Is this I dont vote for the same exact reasons there don't take. Communion, no matter how admirable he is or how much I we with him the pope, isn't the steward over my soul, nor is any president, the leader of my life, this does now. Make me ignorant or evil any more than not being a christian makes me ignorant to evil. If I need representation, I will hire the most qualified person to do so. Yeah isn't voting our current best developed way of hiring the most qualified person to represent you on some things, note be cut, because if I have a lawyer and the lawyer screws up, I can fire him. If I vote for someone I don't get, who I want, I get for who my neighbors want,

So what is it that makes no sense for representation means. I want you to speak for me. Where's voting is like I kind of want you, but I'll take what I can get and I'm gonna take what I could get, regardless of what's the point. What incomers again this would would be goin is you want to be represented in deciding what to do, but once wait, bitcoin isn't picking a person there, not taking a president crying at their brilliant idea, it's more like a referendum. My end to me, referendums. Much more representative is much more coherent and defensible. Then it is voting for representative, because if I am voting for Joe Biden, I'm saying this person speaks for me for abortion, taxation, environmental policy, immigration, war right the odds that, unless you're complete mp, see that

This one person will speak for you for everything and will add will deliver what he promised as an has the power delivery promises, not true, whereas if ever breaks it. If I say I want britain to be remain part of the european union to say yes or no question, that makes a lot more sense to me, but even that is not pure democracy, because going back to the idea of the circulation deletes, which James vernon's about credo in moscow in all them. You are still going to have someone telling you what you can and cannot vote for it, how these questions are framed. So contradiction to what the left anarchist said: some element of hierarchy is always going to be inevitable. So what list I agree with this aspect very much so that we should be voting for ideas and issues not voting for leaders. First for leaders represent this across the full spectrum of issues right misused to make no sense good

This is great, but I do think there should be a leader I do believe in voting for representatives to debate to be community If I d to us, but that UK here's what you let me guess I interrupt you, but you can even you can have those two things. For example, would this be enough movement. If they had that now you have a referendum due on tax rates, be thirty or forty one percent. If you have the guy leading the campaign for fifty for fifty. Then you have the lady Lena campaign for forty five for forty they'll go out there. They can have debates, they could talk with the issue, but you're still not voting for them your voting for the issue. That makes much more sense to me. Then I'm going for him and hope that he puts forward fifty, and that depends a night another senators exactly and but, but also we I do like the idea of voting for certain people the debates on ideas, I think that's a major improvement, but the final vote should be based on the idea, so ok so agreed I'll be nice to have plus no wars, and then then I you stop.

waiting so aggressively and two decriminalize things that don't hurt people, drug abuse, crimes, drugs, especially prostitution, is a big one. If There'S- and this is me talking- mister Mr all cops are criminals. There is no wonder if, or maybe other than like abuse children who needs access to the police other than sex workers They are? The ones who are the most likely to really put themselves endanger situation said they need to be able to call security cause. That's why they are pimps. Because your women dealing with some strange dues for and a lot of time can have read kinks. You want to be able to be sure. Even if you don't approve of prostitution thing, it's horrible that she's I'm going to be raped and murdered and have no consequences, energy say: oh well, she's a prostitute. She can't be raped. I just think for a second, if you're agreeing to sleep with somebody and then he said choking and being the crap out. You saying it's now to dump situation. That is clearly a beyond the pale assault and thinking

Well, drugs, heroin, cocaine! Do you crack? Do you want the people that need help the mouse if you're addicted to those drugs that even the ones who are in punishment. Let's suppose you think drug dealers should be in jail right. It is very hard for me to say that as someone who sells cocaine It should be treated or in the same building as someone who rapes, children or is a murderer. These are not similar types of evil. Even if you believe that that drug dealers and evil person yeah. There's an essays in there called a by alexander berkman is elegant emma goldman's partner crime on crime on prisons and crime, and this is leftism at it's best for getting the person who's forgotten and the fact that we have the world's largest prison population that that so many people are just like all. You commit a crime, just put him in jail, throw away the key at the very end did you want to be told the moral about its expensive and second of all, that the concept that all criminals?

locked in a room together in these kind of largely any when conditions and that's gonna help people. I dont think that that's the ideal mechanism, yeah I'd agenda. Believe asia dont speak. So now italy about politicians, but I do think that politicians have done more evil. In the war on drugs than did the people there are supposed to be the criminals in this picture. I'll give you another example of how this is the anarchist critique of power. Hundred Biden and I'm not it, I'm not making fun him, nothing shots him. He an article in the new yorker, where he talks about when he was in l a he was buying crack and there was misunderstanding or like he left the crack pipe in the hertz car and blah blah. The tissue he's admitting to a felony in writing to a reporter, and I'm sure this was then the statute of limitations. There is no possibility. He was going to have consequences, kamla harris who was a cop talked about when she was in college, SU smoking weed, and it's like. I don't begrudge you guys smoking crack

smoking your we'd, but for other people who are poor or maybe just had the short and the stick? This is years that their life being destroyed at the very least even arrest is a trauma. If the situation, if you have a weed or cocaine or crack you're, arrested, that's really going to screw up a it's going to do a number on you being locked up so to have that double standard to me is completely unacceptable and that as nothing

with a republican or democrat that george w bush was a I coke head back and hit the day he talks about overcoming his addiction and I'm glad that he did more power to him, but just to have this kind of you know it's just really kind of disturbing to me- and this is my anarchist brain like how prevalent drug use is in college. There's that I think this joke on south park like there's a time and a place to try drugs, that's called college where people experiment, but all those college kids which are beginning to become next generation's elite. Don't really have that worry that if they get caught, then anything's going to happen to them, but that kid in the street who did not have that good upbringing. Even if he's a piece of crap like he's not going to have a different punishment I I think, that's just really at that is based on American. So in contrast to tolstoy the mask a bottom, a goldman, you wrote that if any and believed in rulers they're. Not

I'm a goldman would be the undisputed queen. Yes, what ideas to find her flavour and Would you say Emma was real an old school radical ass? She was, article among radicals, I dont know what I Yes, I mean what would ideas will find her was anarchism. Obviously, mother there the violence and me she was more open to the idea of violent opposition verses, some elect tolstoy, oh sure, you're, so basically emma and Alexander Bergmann, their mentor with someone of your most and Johan most was a very early free speech, not very early, but he was a free speech concern as he published a pamphlet in Europe. That was translated the states about how to build dinah

because his idea was all right, you have this oppressive government, this oppressive police force that use batons and bolts against us. The only way for us as the working class to level the playing field is through dynamite and here's how you build it. so the question is right: is this something that could be allowed to be legal? That you're, allowing the layman too in his own house, built bombs so Johann most ter. Basically, they had a big parting of waste because an alexander bergmann, try to assassinate frick, Johan, said none at all. This is not something on four and in fact they thought. With this assassination stale assassination, this would be the thing that fired off the revolution, because you had the strike Pinkerton's. Interval pinker is getting killed, strikers are getting killed. You know this is what marx predicted that they're going to light the spark and everything's income falling down. He has of going to jail for thirteen years; instead, Alexander berkman does and then goldman and berkman had a big issue, because

when the unsolved gauze killed mckinley in nineteen o one, it was really it's gotta humorous. In retrospect he gets arrested in their like why'd. You killed the present goes. I was radicalized wherever goal, but it is a god damn it. I just like. I didn't know this guy and she made the point. About like? Why is it worse than the president being killed and somebody else we're all equal and you would think if you're against capitalism against the ruling class, this would be your first target but berkman who went to jail? Who has tried to assassinate some money? He had said mckinley. This is your villain he's just a party hack he's like a symptom the times these- and this is this- is foolish and golden disagreed with him. She thought it was a neighbor necessarily justified, but it may have done something that was too and so the three of them you know had their differences on the use of violence and in fact, when she came back from russia

and was denouncing it in her book. My disillusionment, russia referred first decision russia. The last chapter chagos look setting up against violence. When there's the rub, wishing cards you're going to have to use forest. She goes, but it's not the force of the state against the working class against the masses. This is exactly were opposed to. This is a complete obscenity to our principle, so that was interesting. The fact that she was a her periodical mother earth was a clearinghouse for many prominent. Ah, you know ideas of the day that weren't anarchists, but were certainly radical, so she was a bit and asked she was tiny. She was like five one so to have this little woman who was so feisty and talk back to one and talk back to lenin. Would took on enlightened woodrow, Wilson, J edgar hoover with afforded her someone who just the thing is. You have to be careful because I think just like war, it's very easy to glamorize violence adds is regarded as something admirable heroically you're fighting for the cause, but

take it out. There were mantras ism you're, like you're, killing someone who had kids, you aren't you know, killings of with the family. Your make europe of you. If you're gonna shoot someone there polygon retaliate twice as hard violence sings its own song in this very dangerous road you're going down. So you really need to be careful about what you. What you're preaching here and near she kind. I had this mixed feelings about it, but that is certainly not emma goldman. Her best emma golden her best was about the ultimate freedom of the individual, of of caring about people who are desperately or who despised the corporate idea that we will have to be made to cookie cutters and be enriched angel at all have to start work at the same time and basically entire life sleeper corporation that have nothing to show for it while they get well. and you and you have no opportunity for either productive work or creative work, so that I think that

liberalization of kind of the lowest of low, is something I find very admirable. There's a quota of hers, which I think, even for those of us who are either for property rights, is anarchy left anarchism at its best wishes goes go and ask for work. If they dont give you work asked for breath, and if they don't give you bread, take bread. So the idea that, like if you're, that poor and you're honestly trying to work at work isn't available, and you steal food to keep alive, that you shouldn't, feel guilt about I don't know that. I would disagree with that. I think that there is something to be set at that point where it's just like you know. If property rights come between that and master nation is giving very hard for anyone to make the case for property rights. That my argument is when you have free enterprise, food becomes so plentiful. The now obesity is an issue, but at the time she did not have course have that data to access Is there somebody you left out from the book the youth thought about leaving in I got something

listing figures yeah there there's a couple. so Chomsky would have been one of course species. You know when the reason the biggest biggest attic is one the biggest anarchists thinkers in contemporary times. I was on the fence about herbert spencer because he's not anarchist chris williamson's reading the chapter. Four, the book he coined the term survival of the fittest and just called the right to ignore the state from his book social statics. It was deleted from later dishes with bill founded and reprinted it and I'm the rat randolph born. He was an early progressive. He was the only one or one, the very few fighting against entering the great war and he added ass. They called war is the health, the state which is basically about how states love war, because it gives an excuse to increase their power and is very hard to argue against increasing state power in a time of war since he was not himself an anarchist and there was plenty anti war in their already might include

but those are the ones. Is there some people that you think the public would be surprised, to learn that they are at least in part anarchistic, as I saw that ours is supposed to be an anarchist, is there not just like tolstoy? Isn't it anarchists deserves some people that they think in our modern life. There will be support. as to learn their anarchists. I can't think of any off the top of my head. I mean you could say Karl hess, who was like Barry goldwater speech, writer from the nightsticks work and paint, but he's hardly household name, and I mean I think a lot of people would not ascribe to that term, but as certainly informed with the is complete distrust of all authority, Murat part had no say if I did include anatomy the state. I was good include this. What is much much shorter and his question

those who are allies and who are our enemies and the point he makers is: there's lots of people who would call themselves anarchists who are of little use where, as someone who is still like a miner kissed her for government but generally hates the question, rothbart had as if there's a button and you figure press would, and the state would press it so fast your finger would get a blister. Those are allies, even if they're, you know somewhat of a miner kissed. So I think that is kind of a better lens of looking at it. And I don't Anyone needs to really ascribed to anarchism as a whole ideology in so far as you're seeing right now, many people inserted fringe elements are justice essentially or are decreasing. The fridge and increasing menstruum elements are realising that this idea, that whatever the state as is somehow morally binding or legitimate is something that should be at least they are strong. Questioning and I mean I guess, there's a lot of groups like the libertarians, for example.

you have some element of that usher for sure of harsh questioning of the ways of government and also, I think, with what I love I mean if, if there is one issue world want people to have this kind of analysis, it is more at ease Ok, are you really sure, because this is a hundred per cent the result in a lot of people being killed, a lot of people being traumatized a lot of people who we're never gonna recover children, innocent people. Are you really sure this is the right thing to do and I think a lot at times. If the answer is well, it's the profitable thing to do, and that is, I think again government, absolute most venal and worst, you Michael mouse in many ways are. new yorker. Oh yes, I give you one example. I dont know austin is on the map, no idea not even kidding, but does matter doesn't matter, but nevertheless you decided to move to ask them. Yes, why these

get moving to ask them. Why do you moving both to austin and away from new york? This was one of the boat hate it? When people talk like guess where you do anyway, this is the hardest and easiest as it is in my life. It was hard because I've lived in york since I was too of the college. It's the only home, I've known. I know it intimately. I know all the cool spots. I love it with five of my being, or I did I very much. You know ingrained in my personality, my outlook, but what cities can be? It can't be and should be an shouldn't, be deciding to move was not then it, but when you see your crew, your fear, you now chosen family one by one whittling away. It's not easy they all left. There's a couple of us left new york and I don't see. Any mechanism by which new york is can improve. Things are getting, it's worse all the time. It's just completely outrageous here.

It would have a huge crew. I didn't realize how much cheaper real estate is then in new york? This is another way, many some new yorkers under the most private The people on earth are completely oblivious to the rest of the country. So, for a long time the argument was new york, vs Ella right for certain types of people and they would say las cheaper in terms of rent said new york lists if the rent is one thousand l a with seven hundred but You'D- have to get a car. I'm like this is kind of a wash, so I assumed Austin would be like eighty percent of new york prices and I'm looking at these houses and for like seven hundred thousand, you could get a house here. There were costs like three point: five million new york yeah so and you could have a gun and it's just like I could have a yard and I could have a dog and had to have a three bedroom and I could have you no aquariums and my we're plants so to have all that and it's just to have. I am very very lucky that I have such a supportive crew and they're all if smart, because they sat me down- and they said whatever excuse- you have not to move here,

you're going to make sure that doesn't count. So my buddy Matt said as a huge library he I was, I will go to your house and I will pack every single book you own myself, so you can get that as an excuse. Otherwise I don't know how to drive in you this all goo and she's, like we're going to take driving lessons together. There goes that excuse. How do I find an an apartment? They're like we'll go to with the realtor? It will take pictures for you will report back. You could trust our judgment and I'm like that's where I would do that. That sounds like fun shopping for houses that have to buy them, then matt just they had the idea goes. Come here, rent a furnished department for a few months you to have the pressure of buying and it's just its can mean we transition the rents not going to be anything compared appeared in york. I'm like these are all very valid you're here, lots of other people better, that's what this is, as I made sure that's fronting month to month of this is rental.

This rental, I didn't realize I thought you bought. The number was rent the hawk, why I thought you bought it why really vice freedom save or who use Hawkins hill. Then breed of its really great but not every in the implementation of foreigners different forever, but offer or ass. For me, I don't want it. Make a statement about. Others are just speak for myself. I think when you buy a house that is not just a wise financial decision or all kinds of reasons that people have investment, always gotta things. I think it's also a hit on your freedom, because, the positive way to frame that is you make it a home yet have a deep connection to it, but the negative way to frame it is you're not a little bit stuck there. He may stay there way longer than you should one Much better opportunities for life will come up. There

their stages on life when you're not sure exactly what the future will hold. I would argue that very often the case, basically at every stage in life, as just want sure, maximize the freedom to are embrace the most ambitious, the the craziest, the wildest those beautiful opportunity, they come by eventually brought the subject I said I really enjoy the conversation with a human urine yeah. Like you talking to you and somebody else ethic. You make a really significant effort You said this before, but it really is true in its stance. In contrast to other folks who also good counsel, You really make an effort for that person like tenders to meet the person off for sure and that's you make me you made me realize it's kind of it. It's an art form, but has also just it's a thing:

worth doing of pudding in that effort and that leap of humanity to till reached. But what are you talking to Dave ruben? or Alex Jones. Joe or me. Just now does a different human being of inward. Taken that leap. It is fast, I any dear. How do you think about that I'm a huge introvert as as you are, I think I I feel very, very, very lucky that I get to get on a mike, and run my mouth and for some people for reason, people like this, so I know what it's like to have a good convoke knowers like to have a bad combo. So before I'll do is show. I will have like some things. I would to talk about nothin. I think about how to see them in engaging way so do my homework in that regard. I am also very

good, add or a pride myself at taking people who are cerebral or intellectual making them a little bit silly, but also making them feel safe to be silly cause, I'm not going to be making a buffoon them that we're having fun as a posted, disrespecting the person I We also that with your iran, whose very terrible very serious but we're all cracking jokes, and he was having good good, and he knew even if I'm making fun of him to his face. It is coming from a place of kindness and he's in on the joke and we're all having fun. That is something I try to do as much as possible. I had an episode of my show couple weeks ago and someone who's a friend of mine for a long time and summer admire lot elizabeth spires. She was the founding member of god founding enter of gawker. Yes, she's she's work for the observer for jack, kirshner she's correct,

resume. Second to none and she was on my show- and she was talking. You know her polit, her politics are pretty straightforward. Like corporate journalist, blue pill, politics and my audience was very upset that I wasn't pushing back or like whatever I'm like my job. If someone is coming to a place where, like the audiences at least give me somewhat hostile is not to make her have negative consequence This is for doing something that she didn't need to do. My job is to make sure that the experience is a positive one for her as the host. So when I the guests. I always feel that my job is to make the host look good and make the house not feel like its work and the audience rely said, because, instead of being an interview or intense, it is a conversation. Night of us know it what's gonna happen, and so this something, I think about a fair amount and I try to apply it in so far as you'd success, Billy I'm delighted and their times were not successful. That's a shame, but all we can do is is do our best. Yeah, really injure the competition

I was surprised why the dislikes and all that kind of stuff were one of the things I always talk about. Is I don't? I don't care, my friends. Politics are I care about if someone's If I'm having a bad day, can I call them up and ass for advice and Elizabeth has been there for me in the past and then when I on a camera for the mics people freaking out, I'm like I'm practising what we preach. My the relationships are more important than someone's political views and it's not hypocrisy at all to demonstrate. at an not that's a push back and those great humor there, they are both a bit of trolls. Yes in areas, if my ways, but nevertheless that can next in the humor mitchell, respect and love about those those over the ashes. Fascinating. You ve talked to algeria a couple days ago. Sure yeah, you ve talked so many times before, but you ve had a menu pike s sweet earlier this week. I was kind of surprise that

He mentioned that human animal hybrids was like the number, the main conspiracy, that people should look into to open their eyes to the you know, the tallness to the globus, all the conspiracies that out. There was as surprising to you, I know, because I came in there with questions. and I was very focused on corralling him and having it be like a kind of a coherent intellectual conversations are really really good. It was only an hour, but is a very good conversation. thank you. I respond was overwhelmingly positive and, unlike right I mean it position because Alex I I met Alex will adopt such a, but I was on alex with Alex on tim pull a couple of times. It was mayhem, it was anarchy

and I'm like a right? Let me get, but the thing is what people enjoyed is. I was the one who is basically able to translate alex ease, he's, obviously very performative, and a lot of times Alex will say things that are not really particularly controversial, but he'll say them in such a way that it sounds crazier than it is. I think Jos may this. Reservations as well. So what I wanted to have a man when I on my show is all right: let's go through all these conspiracies, which have validity, which doubt- and I knew if I, because he's got a lot of historical knowledge. Even if you what you think of a lot of its nonsensical, let's to sort out the wheat from the chaff, you know because everyone has someone crazy in them. I have this expression. You take one read pill, not the whole bottle you take. I bought a red pills. You soon literally everything the media's allied that that's just nautical here position

is the weather ally when they tell you that the temperature is gonna be wrong tomorrow, so that was fun to watch him go through that and he felt bad because he felt incorrectly, in my opinion, that he was needlessly aggressive and disrespectful toward me. On TIM. I didn't feel disrespected at all. It got heated, but I didn't take it personally. People have heated debates all the time, so I think he he promised me he would interrupt and we be deferential, but that because he promised to be on his best behavior. That gave me an opportunity to address him seriously and not to bring the clown aspect out of him, which is easy to carry it's, your him my friend, Ethan Supplee, I'm sure people now played basically a character based character beside him in the hunt, because Eric Alex is kind of this cartoon archetypes. So it was really fun to get another side of him ended and also just and beyond his show, just have being bombastic and just trying to be that the calm voice of reason and for once the trickster was apollo like this. This think he said before and that's what

for me, the most instead Alex is the need to quote about the air in a young gazing into the abyss You said in your show that he has become the best, a hunger. I think that makes some fascinating that when you really take conspiracy theories seriously, What kind of effect it has on your mind that to me is fascinating. What can I say? One thing that term conspiracy. Theory, if you ask any layman like it's like this, you say: do you like puppies? I hate them. Do you like baby dogs? Oh they're, the best strike people, the human mind is capable of doing this. If so, if you ask people, do you think extra? only powerful people often get together and manipulate data or rules in order to further their power and control and maintain it. I think ninety plus percent of people be like of of course, then you say: oh it's you believe in conspiracy theories, oh no! As for crazy people, those concepts are identical now that herb is used force people who are like a right.

Yet this conspiracy is in government to experiment on people to ski. This is not in dispute, the cia has you know, unsealed things, operation, mockingbird zone and so forth and at the same time, conspiracy theory applies it say: nine eleven never happened and those are holograms. Now it's the same word for both, but these are not at all equal truth claims and they do not at all have equal evidence to them, but it's very useful for powerful people to have that term in the Zeit geist, because then I'd have to explain or defend it's like all, we lunatics are going to look further on this. Do you really to be a lunatic kid, and then that takes care of the issue. I unfortunately the same problem applies with language applies to a lot of other, represent the language yeah. It used not just to communicate, but the office gate. Obviously, that could be fixed by coming up with different words to ought to label conspiracy theories. There are much more likely to be true,

Is that our power elite analysis is another is basically a spirit theory. This is the black pill. Vs white pill, question sure. Would the abyss do you think thinking about these things can can destroy the mind now make you deeply cynical about the world yet because if you are thinking that You are not aware of or no one it is aware of who is controlling things and that the level of their control it gives you the sense of power, with this and hopelessness, and my counter is the people in charge when the reason seminary east are nowhere near a smart and crafty, as you think they are at. Certainly maybe the there was led the shadow maybe are, but the ones who are in the public face must certainly are not associate.

as demonstrated when you look at how senators and harvard professors tweet these are not. You know, intellects that you're in awe of, to put it mildly. So I think that kind of takes the bloom off the rose to a greatest and you mentioned that you've been doing it a lot of amazing things been truly joyful, recently yeah. What? Ah I don't know if you're bucket list is their items in the bucket as you done yet are you? Are you pretty much satisfied and happy and if he died, day and night for murder, you you'd be happy. I could die today. is there an item on the bucket list? You wanna get done. I dont yeah, deep sea submersible there'll be never one in a bucket list? Why? Because that's where all the most interesting zoology is and to be the

in a place where, like and virtually no human being has been and to see these gods mistakes in their natural environment. My friend coin that term gods mistakes. If you look a deep sea creatures, you can imagine- god make, The man was being like, oh god, this is hideous I'll, just throw the bomb. The ocean, though, was gonna, see this and said. That would be my number one bucket list thing. I I say: go to the white house as a guest would be a bucket list thing. Russia go to. Russia would be a bucket list thing and I these are secondary. Let go to eritrea would be bucklers I've got a long list of books. I need to write, that's that I dunno that's really a bucket list per se and ah there's not that much. What I'm at a point in my life is once you cross off certain things you basically instead of driving the car, starts surfing and just a mate.

I think the I talked to you about this medical thing. You know before we started if at a certain point- and I'm sure this happens to you- cause your platforms lot bigger than mine all sorts of things. are coming your way that you never would have thought of and you're like this is pretty darn cool so to be, and that's happening at an escalating rate like I'm at a point now, where I get stopped every day by people. So that's going to be a weird thing for me to get adjusted to I ever like without exception. Everyone who has ever stop me on the street has been cool at it's been a pleasant experience there. one exception in the vet, where someone was generally on the spectrum and they didn't understand like distance, and you don't touch people in that area, but that's as bad as it got. So that is something that's going to be. we had for me to have to deal with over the next couple of years, but you know the price you pay and it's this hardly small price. When people come up to you and say you baby,

life. Better but it just weird when you go and like with like, I was the Jim and then someone tweets like that. I see you at the gym just now. It's kind of weird enough is the same for you when you walking around and you don't think about it. But people know who you are you to know what they are, that you're being watched even those double level, it is still just the yoga prepare for that Michael there were. There will be to really big names. That's why to do this park. Ass will do this pike s that it considered to do episode. Two hundred with, but and I realized why the hell talk to somebody famous when I talk to somebody. I love that nobody knows or cares for a random at a writer just listed all the russians I know and who is the easiest to get the most desperate per head, he's gotta,

Did you forget that this garbage cut and paste that it turned out Ok, I think so above average michael I love you, you an incredible human being, it's an honor. They you talk to me, you be my friend thanks. So much to do in this respect that I got when you asked me to be the guest for the anniversary episode was similar to the respect where my two friends Josh and zoe. They were going to get married at city hall and they said we want them to witness at the rescue. So it's one thing: when people tell you they like you and respect you, which I had growing up something when they show it.

This is something that I do not take lightly and I hope no one takes lightly, and if someone does right by you and shows you respect going back to kind of take you out for dinner, thank them buy them a candy bar, buy them a soda. Do something to show that you don't take it for granted, because I think what you and I both want to do is increase human kindness as much as possible and I'm gonna look at the camera be kind to yourself, because a lot of you deserve it. Thus Virginia does thanks for listening to this conversation with michael malice, a thank you to gala games. Indeed, better help and master class check them out in the description to support this podcast and now let me leave you with some words, jack Kerouac that perhaps begins. Explained the nature of and the reasons for, my friendship with Mr Michael malice, the only but for me the man once the ones

matter live, not talk but to be saved desirous of everything. At the same time, I'm the one who never yawn or say commonplace thing but burn burn like, I view this yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the star and then the middle. You see the blue centre like pop and everybody goes thank you for listening and hope to see you next time. The