The following is conversational jocker willing, a retired; u s knee seal co, author of extreme ownership, dichotomy of leadership, discipline equals freedom and many other excellent books and he's the host of jacko podcast jacko spend twenty years and the seal teams. He was the commander of seal team threes task unit browser that became the most highly decorated special operations unit of the iraq war. This conversation was intense and to the point we agreed to talk again probably many times and when I find very interesting aside from the talk of leadership, is the conversation about military tactics of specific battles in history, quick mention of our sponsors winnowed. Indeed, simple, safe and ground news check them out in the description to support this package.

since the fourth of July, a holiday in the united states. Let me say a few words about what this country my country, the united states of america, means to me first by way of Ground I was born and raised in the soviet union just long enough to get a bit of the russian saw, an appreciation of soviet history, music culture, resting in mathematics of engineering and philosophy, stoicism in humor tragedies and triumphs of warmer. Loosens all in ways that are uniquely russian, I do happen to at times. Mention that I'm russian? This is what I mean that I got a bit of that russian soul. But, of course why I really am: is an american, this country game

we have the opportunity, the freedom to become and to be who I am to stand as an individual. This seemingly simple freedom to be a sovereign human being in the face of all the beauty and cruelty of life, is why I love this country. Much of life can be unfair, unjust, even tragic, but this is the country where, from clever enough or card enough, just get lucky enough of a chance to dream big and make my dream a reality. The united states welcomed me my family and millions of immigrants throughout it's history, so that we can make something meaningful of ourselves to love, to dream, to create, to find joy and meaning it lets me be the weird kid I am who wears the

suit talks about love and as a fascination with robots. I know some people these days have an aversion to pride and love for their country. I don't I love america, I also of humanity. I believe these two patriotism and humanism are not incur. Much like loving your family and loving a country are not a conflict They are all manifestations of the human spirit longing to strive for a better world. I was born a russian I believe I'll die an american, a proud american, hopefully not artisan butter I is short already had one hell of journey, so maybe go when his time as usual. I do a few minutes ago.

It's now no ads in the middle, I find those to be annoying as a listener. Think they're getting away the conversation. I also do give you timestamps. I hope you don't skip, because I try to make these interesting, but if you do skip, please still check out the sponsors by clicking the links in the description. It is the best way to support this podcast. This episode is sponsored by linwood linux virtual machines, anytime, I mention linux anywhere, brings joy to my heart. Linwood is an awesome copy

infrastructure that lets you develop, deploy and scale what applications you build faster and easier. This is both for small personal projects and huge systems. Both things I hope to be involved with in the future. It's lower cost than a ws, but more important to me is the simplicity, equality of the customer service with real humans. Twenty four seven, three sixty five as opposed to all the fake humans trying to pass the turing test on twitter. I honestly think computer infrastructure done well, but customer service ease of use, debugging, maintenance, understanding, the pricing structure, all those things as essential I really like what linotype doing also competition for a w s is very good. Competitions is always good, especially in this space. Where more and more of our world is riding on on computer infrastructure, blood line of our human civilization is becoming computation, so Companies like Linode are essential. The tagline is, if it runs out.

If it runs on linode visit, linode dot, com, size legs and click on the create via carbon to get started with one hundred dollars in free credit that linode dot com slash lex. This episode is also sponsored by need a hiring website, I've used them as part of many hiring. Efforts have done, for the teams have led in the past. They have tools, like indeed instant match, giving you quality candidates, whose reza maize and indeed fit your job description in meat italy is doing at reads was a job I wanna get hired. anyway, I'm terrible at this. I like these companies, I'm just not very good at emotive, my passion for them I'm not sure if emoting is a word, I'm just go.

I keep running with it without looking it up. Hence why I would never get hired to do address anyway. Right now get a free. Seventy five dollars sponsor job credit to upgrade your job posting on. Indeed, dot com, slash, lex, get it at indeed, dot com, slash legs offer is valid through september, thirtieth terms and conditions apply, join three million businesses that use indeed, by going to indeed dot com, slash lex. I've used it. I love it check it out. He might. The two they show is also sponsored by simply safe home security company. It was designed by Chad and eleanor lawrence to be simple and effective, I don't know why they asked me to mention the names of the creators, but I think the point is that there is real human beings that really care behind this company,

in that. Actually, when it comes to security systems is very important. It is indeed simple takes thirty minutes to set up. You can customize the system for your needs on simply saved com. Slash works it set up in my place, and I love it. I do try to live life, not paranoid. I think minimization stress verses, Maximization of safety is the more effective way to live life. For me, I do make sure I make intelligent decisions of how to protect myself, how to protect my data, how to protect my physical safety, especially my platform, girls and guess trickier in trickier. Yes, I do want to keep myself open and fragile other people I meet on the street. They recognize me from the park as they just incredible. People are really enjoy those conversations. So I know

I want to close myself off from that anyway. Go to simplisafe dot com, slash legs, to customize your system and get a free security camera plus a sixty day, risk free trial again that simply save dot com, slash lacks the shows, also sponsored by ground news and a political news website that helped me get all perspectives on a story and analyze my blindspots politically. They draw from fifty thousand outlets across the world and across the political spectrum. The point is to see every side and come to your own conclusions. I think this approach is the future of news. That's why I'm a big supporter of ground news? That's why I took him on as a sponsor. I see my membership there as support for the ideal of what

dan for not just this particular company healthy. You can now see the same way, as has been said before, but probably can't be said enough is that could be journalism is truly damaging our ability as a society, to have difficult long form conversations as we strive towards the truth. Truth is, easy thing to arrive at their requires understanding context they require centres in history requires understanding, lived experiences of different people to be a pathetic to be data driven to be rigorous. With your analysis, all those things include bay journalism is completely epithet equal to that. So that's why I think it is a poor ground news and other companies of the kind and you I try them out by signing up a ground that news such lex is expensive, so deftly

worth it but, like I said it's also a good way to support all the different efforts that try to fix our current state of journalism and the media go to ground that news, slash legs to sign up and show your support. This is the lex Friedman podcast, and here is my conversation with Jacko. Will like the is a tragic, her beautiful to you that some of the closest positive formed between people are through war, often panicked, both both tragic

and beautiful, and for the obvious reasons, what an obvious reasons: why is it so obvious? Well its tragic, because a lot of people I and it's beautiful, because you form bonds with people that are very difficult to break once you ve been through them. What is it about The trauma of war that makes bonds difficult to break because what you realise, when you're in a war is that the people. let her next to you. You rely on them and they are relying on you to survive and without them will not survive.

And when you realise that you need to work together as a team to to live that forms, a very strong bond and there's nothing like that team outside of the realm of war. I dont know because I've there's a lot things that I haven't experienced in my life, but I think the pressure and the consequences of war There could be similar situations in survive well, scenarios in various trust these? Were people need to work together In order to survive- and I think you could probably get something that was similar- does a very pretty Your nature to the kind of war that we were too was especially for the soviet union, where it didn't just influence the lives of people agree. Culture, the music, the poetry, the literature is

it's in the it's in the way people think it's in the way people see the world in the way they talk even still to this day, and of course I was talking about the directly relationship between two soldiers, but there's something about the depth of humankind, Given that results from this almost like got reverberations of war like generations later you're still close to other humans, you're you're there's a coldness towards other humans in russia, but once you open up its depth, you seek depth of connection verses like breadth of via career. I was thinking. How can I make friends with this? I can move into this direction. Where can this person benefit me use? Instead, you seek a a few human connection and appreciation. That brings a lot.

And maybe I'm romanticizing war here, but it feels like that's inextricably connected to world war. Two for russians there's the czar resonate at all is zero. If you look at military meaning what they do. Is they take people in the military from the civilian world? They bring them into the military in they put him through boot camp, which is the stereotype, the thing that you see on tv you're, going to get yelled at you're, going to get screamed at you're, going to get you're going to get put in blood and you're gonna made be made heart to do harm, things together and what does that do with those civilians, while it gives them a common background, it gives them a common suffering that they ve been through together and they form some sort of connection. Some sort of bond now To make that bond a little bit stronger after you get done with boot camp, they send you to advanced infantry school and

You suffer some more together and when you suffer more together Now, you're in a smaller group, too, is now it's infantry. It's not supply people anymore with low distinctions. It's strictly. People are going to fight. instrument, so they go through school together and now to get a little bit tighter get on with that, and maybe you go to airborne divisions. Are you gotta airborne school and now you all, overcome this fear of jumping out of an airplane together, and you celebrate surviving that. Then, maybe you get done with that. Now you go at an airborne division of europe and even tighter group, because you ve suffered together. What comes next is special forces, training or ranger training and what they do is they put you in these situations where you're gonna suffer together and you're gonna build these bonds because, as I said earlier, we have to rely on each other to survive and by the way not everyone does not have and makes it through. This training three sort have these memories of people that didn't make it new share that connection as well.

Can keep going down this road until you going to combat with a military unit and military units that go through combat, haven't even tighter bond and the high the combat that they go through the tide of the bond is going to be. So I think when you talk about what the soviet union went through in world war, two, there was a shared suffering. To survive, and so the entire nation has that common thread, and that's probably the thing that you sense or feel when you refer back to the bond that resonates all the way back to world order, so you pike in your writing. You talk about some of them. Most fascinating things ever since you talk about in tourism

military conflict is tactics, answered the details of of combat, but allow me to come over two for a second There is a particular aspect that war could speak to it were as the number of civilian died and military personnel, The soviet union, especially. you're. My ah my grandfather was a machine. Gunnar are not enough, ukraine As the germans were marching towards mosque others, this main deserts important push. Nineteen forty one where there were trying to get before the winter too, ought to moscow and what Stalin was doing is he was basically throwing bodies at actor

to slow the attack and what tat meant? Is everybody understood that you, your job, was yet this heavy machine guns is very it's almost unreasonable to be able to be mobile and he got away with them. She or he has thrown at the front, and you just nonstop shooting- and you know a ninety five plus percent of people are just dead of the soldiers are just dead, and then you just go back back and you're trying to protect his mesa is this: you can't throw the whole process, but you don't, and so you have millions of civilians that die along the way and through this march, is there something you could say about this complete, perhaps as naive of me to say, but a war that lacks tactics that lacks stress.

Energy and is purely about just no consideration of human life and just throwing bodies and bullets. Into mixed together were millions die and that in particular felt much less like conflict. And much more like torture suffering they didn't it didn't come off his torture? Only that, interestingly enough, as you probably know my ground, further, including everybody else volunteered. They were proud to do this. They were proud to marcia their death for country for love of country, but

the question on the civilian side, when one more civilians die the military personnel, what do you make of that? Sulphur, tougher win, soldier dies. It's awful when a civilian dies, it's awful when Ten civilians or ten soldiers in its even more awful, when millions and millions of soldiers and civilians die, I think it's safe to say

that the soviet union was facing an existential threat to their existence against the nazis, so to not fight would be to die as well, maybe dire death a few years later, maybe diet different way, but the choice was die now trying or die later on your knees, and I think the choice was pretty clear as far as the tactics go I mean there is. This is attrition warfare? That's what that is. We are going to keep you know. You said throwing bodies at the problem. That's attrition warfare. And the soviet union had a lot of bodies more. Then the germans and when you fight with attrition warfare,

whoever has more men and material will eventually, when it's an awful it's an awful way, but that's them! That's that's what the strategy was. You often talk about leadership. Let's put the evils of hitler aside the boldness of hitler in making some the strategic decisions He did was considered by many motor historians. Quite brilliant, early in the war are insane and brilliant. stolen. On the other hand, I think university is seen as somebody who is terrible. Military strategists special early in the war did not see all the posts which rejected at the war could take their sunday gazebo failure of leadership stolen, also the united kingdom-

before churchill, and also sdr in the united states side. Who basically was true to turn a blind eye to everything that was happening over over there. May it, with a perspective of we, just want to make what we wanted to keep america's interest as the primary interest in and everything else. Let other countries work out their problems. You know I think one of them with hitler was in the beginning of the war. He listened to his advisers, he listened to his generals and therefore they did pretty well. that I think, as the war went on, he believed that he was smarter than was, and made decisions that were bad. That cost him dearly. yeah, I'm in case in point, as everyone knows, going and attacking the soviet union, while you're still fighting a war on the other funds, not not a good move that there is an example of yeah bad leadership.

letting your ego gettin away believing You can do things that you better beyond your cable bodies, but you know, as you mentioned in the beginning, with blitzkrieg, oh really dynamic and bold moves and they worked and What does that? Do that fuels your ego and make you think that you can win many people, consider that were a just war waiting make suggest, Were I think you have the nazis and the IMF You'll japanese, trying to impose their will on others, friends and other peoples. And when that happens, I think, on a grand scale. People look at that and. believe it's just to step in and do something about it, some grey area here there's there's nothing about grey area.

the usa has been involved in a lot of military conflict since then, you draw the line through the grey area. What what or should we engage in a knot I know you don't get to politics much, but what the Decision to go to war, you have to look at this duration, that you're going into, and you have to make sure that you have the way. To go to war and. well. To go to war means that you are willing, To kill people and when I say people don't just mean enemy, because in war, civilians are going to die, women and children are going to die. Every a lot of people are going to die and sir you and you are going to kill them doesn't matter what kind of smart munitions you have doesn't matter how disciplined your soldiers are, you go into a war seville, ins are going to die and you have to understand that and the other thing at you

I understand is that your troops are also going to die, And it seems like sometimes what a little bit naive about the calculation of what that's gonna look like, and maybe we think well now. that many civilians, and maybe not that many of our our personnel are going to die and that's where you get into sticky situations and You know that another thing when you are talking about the soviet union versus the nazis, that total war That's what that, as we dont engage in that very often its total war, its. We will do ab The anything to win and america doesn't fight like that. Very often, in fact, the last time we fall like that was world war. Two we we, it was total war, we will do whatever it takes to up to and including the atomic bomb to destroy the enemy, so

does the kind of things you need to think about before you go to war, and I dont think we think about that very often. You know. Even the united states, the atomic bomb nuclear weapons is an interesting one, because there's a lot of. There's a lot of hesitation on that there's. A lot of critics of that decision is was happening. So even america you can imagine other countries like germany would not be so hesitant to use nuclear weapons. It's interesting to think about in deciding military strategy to inject ethics into it. you. Two morality is not just about winning the war, but should we do this and doing a cat, Collation of human life Usually those decisions are made by leaders, not by

the soldier. There's going to be implementing that that decision Put some responsibility. I should even say blame on the leaders and not doing that kind of calculation here, because you said about the vietnam war. You could say that about even. Whether you're involved in Iraq is theirs criticism here, you could apply to leaders for failing, not taken, The bottom moral questions, yes natural, like all leaders will make these mistakes are. Should leaders not make these mistakes. leaders are going to make mistakes it's impossible or not, it happened in war. Just like it's impossible know. What's gonna happen in life, you make that you make decisions on the information that you have at the time.

and you will make mistakes and if you fail to admit that you made a mistake that's where I have a more significant problem, then someone that makes a mistake and hey. This is the mistake that I made. This is the intelligence than I thought. you were utilizing and it actually is not what I thought I was going to be and here's the new direction that were going- and we don't have enough of that type of ownership in in leadership globally sing. I made a mistake. Resulted in the loss at scale of human life being able to say that and when you don't say that you end up with a more loss of human life

Can I ask you about the loss of human life? How does killing a human being changed you? What does it mean to kill him of being? What does it feel like? They kill human being. Well, I mean, I guess: you'd have to look at what circumstances of persons in when this is taking place. If you ve got one that do not fit of rage that goes and kill, somebody. the other gonna come out of it and think, while I Just really messed up, if you ve got some one, it is a sociopath right, they're, not gonna, feel anything. That person deserve to die and that's where they died. If you ve gotta the soldier who feels like they're trying to protect their friends del move through that.

If you've got a soldier, that's doing it because they want some kind of personal glory. They'll, probably not feel good about it later. So I think it depends on the situation. I think it depends on the psychology of the individual is going through it. He said move through. That is, there's some calculation here that a soldier when they killed another soldier, a realisation that is just another human being. I mean: is there some heavy burden to that aspect that its ultimate just human on human. I think it depends a lot on the scenario. I know that when I In iraq, fighting you, we we talk a lot about the good humour,

zation of the enemy and something that the governments will do mean governments and we'll do that to each other minute. That the japanese dehumanized, the americans in the americans, dehumanized, the japanese and the amounts, his dehumanized deny it is in the nazis, dehumanized the americans, so that to remove as much of that when on human killing aspect that you're talking about. and what I would have said is that and when we were in Iraq, we didn't have to do humanize the enemy, because the the enemy dehumanized themselves through their actions, behaviors when and we know that they are torturing and raping and murdering the local, populous they ve been dehumanized, and so as far as looking at them and thinking. Oh, this is a you know, a human other human. That's that's all

level of you know my my uncle or my brother, I didn't, I didn't think of them out that way. I thought of them as. As murdering raping evil sub humans, here rock different america's positions, different you're right that america has not been involved in a war words quite like to humans, fighting like teenage. Boys fighting against each other you ve gotta, remember I mean where we are seeing these iraqi kids that are living under this sadistic sadistic terror, the iraqi women that are being raped and abused by these insurgents, and so on the one side we become the

Iraqi populace is very humanised to us because we are talking to them. We ve got interpreters. We understand were seen them day after day, the same The visuals, and so we ve I'm a bond with the local populace, and yet we see the insurgents are doing, and so it's again not difficult to do. Humanize people that behave in that manner. Yeah. I suppose I m I worry about the g dehumanization at a much larger scale when it's not the kind of case that you're talking. even now, hopefully not fearmongering, but there's a sense in which there is the drums of more slowly starting to build with china there in the best case, it'll be a call,

war of theirs. Dehumanization aspect that's happening with china currently, which is there the other, and there your stealing all of your data. There's a cyber security starts a cyber security. It worries me because it creates the other out of a very large population that, on that may ultimately lead to conflict. The worst case, hot conflict. There would no longer be the situation you're in Iraq and more similar to the soviet union. Conflict with the with germany, that its kids and in their dehumanized to where you're at scale, slaughtering them, or at least In their quality of life, in a way that, sir, you know the suffering has made,

forms, it doesn't have to be through just a hot war could be the starvation. Two camps are those kinds of things, and I worry away about that. Content to think that these wars are behind us. And I'm not always so sure, that's the case at least in the way that it ultimately starts with hate and, if again, hopefully, not be too dramatic, but I I I see that there's a kind of brewing of it starts with dehumanization that turns to hate of the other. You see that with china, you see a deliberate with russia and you have an early part gas between the chilly were you break down the taxes to the chechen war, which is russia fascinating, but that's the kind of conflict some referred to and dumb, I don't know

There's a, I know, you're a bit of a musician, I love dash straight son, called brothers in arms, and if you know that one. And there's a line in it? I think that they play it quite often. Military funerals, which had just recently learned but is this powerful sign, as alai now were, forced to make war our brothers in arms, you think, there's some sense in which at the leadership level, but just as human beings were perhaps foolish engaging in military conflict as much as we have Where's fool a very appropriate word here. Well, I think that using the term brothers in arms means through people are on my side rights or it dozen makes sense to start

Wars were people that are on your side, so that's not much better. Where the lyrics are written, so that it the song or whatever, think broadly. What you're asking me is: is war foolish yet, and I would say the answer is yes, and if you can avoid it, you absolutely should but if there is a bear or a wolf that Is trying to get into your house? Is it foolish to shoot that bear shootout wolf. I think the answer is pretty obvious. So win your ear threat and were your family or surrender? Your way of life is threatened. Then you have to do something: to try and defend your family. Your way of life should be. The last resort should be the last.

Or he had a conversation with Jordan petersen where he asked you a question. In terms of war being last resort, whether you would like your kids to grow up in peace and time of no war, you said yes, but that's all Amman, Jordan, didn't let you finish, can you can you elaborate what follows the but well you you and I have been talking about the fact that struggle brings people together and and brings out the best in and the worst brings out the worst in people war brings out. The worst in people also brings out the best in people, so.

Would you want your kid to go and entering a wrestling tournament where new paid all the other kids off and your kid one. Or you enter the eminent jujitsu tournament where their purple bout and you know that everyone that they're going to fight against as a white belt, and so they get the they get the big w. They get the win, but they don't really get tested and they don't really struggle. And if you don't struggle, you don't grow. So that's the butt right and that the absolute best times of. life were in combat and the worst times of my life were in combat. And so, even though I wouldn't want any of my children to suffer through the worst of times,.

At the same time the bodies, I would want them to have the opportunity to feel that bond that you're, referring to a earlier and to see human beings that are willing, sacrificed their lives for their friends. You mentioned the worst What are some of the worst aspects of when you were in Iraq? But what are the things that are the hardest on you have my guys killed? Is there are absurd cruelty to was it due to mistakes or natural consequences of a fighting. Is there any difference The end is just losing those her brothers in arms. There's a million different ways to get killed more than you,

go out on an operation, and you can do everything wrong and you can survive. And you can go out in an operation and do everything perfect and you get killed? Is there some aspect which makes it worse when there's mistakes made while yeah there's mistakes made, then you're going to sit there and be yourself up eternally for mistakes that were made, but to you the things that hurt is just losing losing people causing death. Are you yourself afraid of death? Now? Do you think about it It makes sense to this thing and that you are the stoics contemplated death a gives flavour to life. It makes you appreciate,

The southern about finiteness of life that makes it makes it the sir jack o discipline go drink sour apple them enjoying delicious makes it tastes better. Because I'm going to die one day- and I about that alot. Do you think about it? other than. I know that it's gonna end, my men, but I dont think about on a daily basis. I think about the fact I think about I know that I'm lucky to be here. I know that many people sacrificed to give me this opportunity to be here so but I dont dwell on it. What about when you were a comment, nothing this there's tactics. This strategy. There's the mission and then.

You're mortality is not part of the calculation. I think you get to a point where you accept the fact that the EU can die. Like I, you know like I said you can do everything right, you roll out the gate. He had an idea, a triple stack, subsurface de than your dad you're done and there's nothing? That's gonna! Stop that it's gonna happen, and I thank you. you're, scared of that or you're thinking about that, it's going to inhibit your ability to do your job properly, and I think it's also going to drive you crazy the thing that I thought about more was that happening to my guys and that's the gut, Jeanne terror that you feel when. we operations happen. Cask about love of country is its. It continues to just. How much have studied stolen recently in the past few years. It continues to surprise me not surprise me

this tragic as some kind of way? I am not sure exactly if I could put wars to a, but how many people still do, but at the time were willing loved stone and willing to die for country for the love of country, and I too maybe because I was born there and now I am a red blooded american. I love nationalism, is a bad word, but I love the love of country it gives it somehow gives meaning like a brotherhood like we're in this together. I love that's why I love the olympics, that's just the

the unity of it. It takes a step out of the selfish pursuits of any one particular aunt and looks it s a big ant colony and death inspiring itself on its exciting, but the same time it seems to get us to do horrible things. If a fire manipulated manipulate by charismatic leaders, what do you mean? with his love of country. Is it a is it a bad thing? Is that the thing that gets in the way or is that a good thing? Well, I think, like anything else, if it's balanced correctly it's great, and if it goes to some extreme level, then it becomes a negative. Then I think it. I think it's probably sourced in some sort of. animal mystic tribalism that we all have to be part of a tribe, and this is a real big tribe that you get to be a part of

You have to do, is kind of show up, and so, when someone says hey we're gonna play hawk against the russians. Well we're in a year for the american boys. So my my area of work at our efficient tells us it be interesting to ask your thoughts about something which is a ton was weapons systems? U s has now officially release the report saying that their open to are not open, an engaging in an arm adding more more autonomy and artificial intelligence into weapons systems, because china is doing it so there's these are the first steps in an something that a I worry about witches or greece and a race in the space of atomic weapons,

that can run away too quickly? Is that something on and off in general? If your thoughts about weapons systems that make autonomous decisions at the small scale of just targeting where to shoot and the largest scale of military strategy of just given being given a mission of destroy this particular target, this particular say terrorists, human being And then figure out what is the right bombing campaign on your own to accomplish this task them? Am I the civilian death and it just loading that in and letting the ai system automatically decide that what he had journal thought about it do you do you worry about it because, as the positive effects that, in the best version of that world, you kill fewer civilians, you kill her

fewer of your own human beings, but the negative side of that you might lose the the thing we kind of talked about the basic humanity, even in the end, your soldier what is right and what is wrong and not making huge mistakes that hurt thousands or millions of people. I guess what you're asking me as if they could make a machine that could do more surgical attacks on enemy individuals. What I before it? Yes, I would before it The problem is, if you ever use machines of any kind. our initial design may not be there. There's unintended consequence. There's tsar, there's ways and their them she actually behaves. The euro lies there's bugs in this thing, so do

not protocols in place to prevent something from going too far outside the boundaries of what we wanted to execute you do, but the car, as this is the first time in human history, you can create things machines toaster, mike given that smarter than you in this particular task mean, if not yet there it will will you're learning a lot with military strategies. Humans are actually really damn. Smart is very hard to do to improve on a human and so more. actual drones that are unmanned, I still piloted by humans very difficult to do. Every aspect of war, why it's not out of the round possibility that machines will start doing those things better and certain certain things, certain more precise targeting of the enemy. The question is:

so what happens when you start to rely on the machine to do some of the task? Is you get lazy? You forget what it is like to do that task. Or more importantly, you lose the knowledge of the intricacies of that task, and you forget the whizzing go wrong, so the protocols may not be sufficient to constrain the power of the way. if things go wrong, especially when things are moving really quickly, especially when the ethics of the two sides are perfectly aligned when people are sums certain Size, like I'm chinese side, may be more willing to take risks for dangerous consequences than others so what happened on the by weapon side is internationally. Maybe two speakers more, but my sense. What I was told there is a sense.

globally by weapons are not going to be used, their unethical there's a sense like we're not going to engage in this and would say I currently China, an u s, said green light all go ahead. It's it's totally ethical if, if it can decrease the loss of human, I thought why not- and my worry is that it's much more, it's it's much easier to design weapons that are effective Then design weapons who have the the depth of ethics Humans do which I think, would don't as human beings don't acknowledge enough that even like that, old, calculated killing of others, think precise effective.

situation of emission still has ethics in it at every level. You know what's right, what's wrong, I don't know that. I dunno, if you take that away, you're, not going to make huge mistakes that you regret. there's something you don't wake up I dont really worry about it, but as Design something like I said you you put protocols in place in and from what I I am hearing you say or trying to hear. You say there will be a point where protocols wouldn't be would be sufficient to stop the machine from doing something that was unethical. I'm kind of worried that this is something you don't worry about, because a lot of people- I respect, don't worry about it, and I don't know what to do about that. a lot of generals. Don't worry about it, a lot of people who know much

more about war like you and me,. Don't worry about it and that worries me well, because you have a vision into the shortfalls of ai, and I don't. I don't have a vision of the shortfalls away- I don't know nothing about it as far as on concerned? You put her on off. switch somewhere. You put up a kill, switch ana system and if it starts When are you had to kill switching? That's it so You know when you look at me and say well, there's no possible way to put a kills which that would, beyond the present effective and hears you draw those concerns to me, and we could talk through it and say: okay. Well, here's where we should draw the line. I mean it's like a from the soviet union. Chernobyl melt down. There is always the ability I believed to have a kill switch. The problem is

the more power you give to the machine, the more opportunity you give to the to the human supervise them machine to make a mistake and not shut off the switch at the right time. So Yes, the solution I mean you're, putting their possibly still in the human has, I think, as the correct place. To put it, there should be good protocols, good leadership, good, execute competency, all around your protocols should consider the basic failures, if human nature, the human factor of how things go wrong, so they should be multiple people supervising the system, all those things, but I am just very sceptical Of greater and greater power in the machine, they can create war that cannot lead to death yet and that Why, like I said, and like you just said, you have protocols in place there that are a kill switch and if you think about the amount of nuclear weapons We we've had on planet earth for the past hour

many years and there's been no no, rogue element. That said, you know what I'm gonna shoot. This thing there's been no protocol that took place. all of a sudden. We said. Oh no, I mean there's been there's been aspirations, but the protocols worked have worked so far. Now that's a scary thing to think about that. We rely on these protocols to stop some rogue element out there from launching a a missile that could kill millions of people and trigger a global war. Syria, the protocol, should be strict ok, gasket, jacqueline's, ridiculous question. If human civilization goes extinct, we'll be the reason You mentioned nuclear war. Do away about this there is. I bring that up a lot of people in the air. I community worry bout, artificial, general intelligence

super intelligent acid. Creating a lot of damage, atomic weapons systems is one possibility now, a lot of folks recently special this pandemic fuel the terrified, listen Samir talk to recently SAM harris did, for our part. Guest on How bioengineering of viruses is likely to destroy human civilization? I recommend highly few. If you were to optimize think about the future of the human species, so apparently there in the space of bioenergy become, is becoming easier and easier and easier to are engineer a virus as a pathogens. this is the world's most pressing question. Where is do? Is there something. particularly worry about, like that? We should be thinking as the human species about.

I'm sorry to disappoint you again with my lack of worry for all these problems, but I don't work. he too much about it. You know what we ve made: it A bunch of wicked so far as a species in make it through some more or we want, and if we don't make it through some of these wickets and someone decides that what there do over the weekend is create some crazy virus that spreads and kills everybody yeah. You know I am music altruistic about the stuff. I am now I'm with you except the we want, what there's always a chance. We won't, but I have a sense that human first of all, I believe that most people have much more capacity for good than evil. All of us are capable at vivo, believe, but most people are much more capable of doing good and want to do good and I also believe

in the resilience of the human species. There were an innovative bunch and will correspond to tragedy especially respond more to tragedy, as the scale of the tragedy grows, and our response is much better for that. Why I'm not worried about it barreaux. What makes a great man I started. The individual What makes a great man what makes a great woman or makes a great human being somebody that puts others above themselves. what makes a great leader of humans same thing, but that sentence does a lot of work. There's when you're a leader there's a lot of egos, there's a lot of time, John as the humans, the human factor. There's people who are timid, there's people whore, assholes, there's people whore incredibly competent, but self obsessed at others, complexities.

Nature. How do you get all those people. To do to be the best version of themselves and to lift up everyone else around them. Ok, so now that that question is a little bit different now, so now it's getting into up the moors since the question? At the same time, a more broad question of what elements does it take to make a good leader? Yes, so you write that different people have different. Nowadays different tendencies, different levels of vigo and the the way that I try and explain. This is. like a video game and I'm not even a video game player. But I've seen this before, where videogame characters have various skills, various strengths and weaknesses so maybe they're strong, but their dom, or maybe their strong and smart, but their slow is given these these ratings. And so after human beings are and that's the way leaders are, and you can have different leaders with different character.

sticks and depending on how all those characteristics match up you can have somebody that is very introverted, but there are, but, but there still at a very good leader, because when they do community, they do it in a clear, simple manner that everyone understands or even though their little but introverted people still respect them and listened to because they communicate in a clear way, you can have somebody that's extremely charismatic extremely charismatic and everyone looks to them, but they are slow and making decisions and Now we ve got someone that can really make decisions when decisions need to be made. So even though their charismatic there still not a good leader, so, depending on the human being that we're talking about, and you just mentioned earlier, that human beings are you no more complex than anything and do a better job at Joe about everything. Then a robot. So that's the same thing with leadership

got all these different characteristics and you you match him or mix them together and depending on where the sittings come out depending on how that thing does in the end, can we like as a case study, look at a few people in the tax area that I'm familiar that I know well, we can the only caviar being that I may have no familiarization with them whatsoever. You may have two brief me on the yeah, so I'll do my best to brief that I'll do my best to reduce human beings into simple descriptions and they You can give me and says of why the hell they're such effective leaders based on my description not be then your actual deep knowledge of the big, so that caveat of my inability to speak both english language describe humans, awhile saga, first elon musk, so He's known as being quite harsh in the sense of first of all, a very high bar of excellence.

and are also willing to what he calls that kind of first principles. Thinking of asking the the questions that hurt, which is. Why the hell? Are we doing it? This way? Why can t be done a lot, but is better but a lot better. So so, let's aren't one hears whole character, I'll go one! one section at times we got a guy, that's harsh and and asking the really hard questions. How can that be good? Or why is that good or first block any harm? and there's leaders out there that are harsh and they're hated and no one likes them and no one wants to work for them and they never do anything. So what is it that he

on musk does, that makes gives him the ability to be harsh. So I was, I was hearing a description of me when I would give feedback to young seals that had made mistakes during training operations, and the description was about the same thing like this harsh blunt force trauma and just totally direct Sledgehammer of truth that I would hit guys with, but it's interesting because I always talk about you- know, building relationships and making sure you're not offending someone yeah. So how do these things match up? Well, I can tell you how they match up when I was being harsh, the guys that I was being harsh with new without one

the shred of doubt that I cared about them more than anything else and that the reason I was giving them this feedback is because I wanted them to be able to lead their troops. I wanted them to be able to go, sir mission and I wanted them to be able to bring guys home from war, so wasn't being harsh, because it elevated. My ego, I wasn't being harsh because I wanted to Daniel. Damn I was being actually been harsh because I want then do cops the mission. So, if that's where you on comes from hey, listen, we gotta make this happen. This is for this is for the good of the world to do this, and people know that the networks obtained this point back up more than the guy steve jobs below me standing offers. Second, the the others think he does his interesting. I see the value of this they'd. Be great. Harry's speak about it, is, unlike many of the other seals, very rich billionaires.

you know, involved in leading a lot of people have put a lot of time into making sure he's on the factory floor he fell They sleep, some sort of like in the middle of things, and he puts a lot of effort- is also very good at it, is being a low level engineers like wherever the task is, he wants understand details and you'll talk to them Always level person in terms like somebody who's, like working literally I'm putting parts together. He must understand what the problem is with the challenges, if there's an emergency he was understand the actual details of the problem not like delegating into a manager, but like because a lot of ceos, a lot of managers will will talk about sort of the the the power and the importance of delegation. Here he wants to know. If there's a big problem, mickelson have the exact detail. He wants to know the exact,

problem, he was too at the fundamental low understand how to solve that problem. I were there to do in Madrid. deals with their has to do with the actual many actually mechanical engineering aspect like we're talking about like engineering is the guy, who is a sou, is a ceo tweets about george goin, but like actual job he's low level engineer, and that to me was always inspiring to see Somebody who knows what the fuck they're doing. That's what it's like. He gave the respect, Of engineers, at the lowest level item of that scalable, but ozma aspiring to me, and I wonder how many puts aspiring to maybe to speak to the vote. you're doing that of evening, How higher level of leader is to be the low level shit yeah and that's that's a common trade that good leaders have.

And maybe he doesn't necessarily know how to do everything a good leader, but they go down there and talk to the frontline troops and say hey What it! What is the issue that you're dealing with, or how can I support you? How can I give you help and wait? One key point that you said he said when there's a problem that he gets in their so there things happening at his companies that their working and so he doesn't have to die. I must say, need never does, but he doesn't have to spend as much time working on, or or looking at some subsystem, Functioning well he's gotta, good leader in there? That's handling it and he checks in with that leader in the leader, says: yachts working perfectly. He says great that when there's a problem with that when he might have to get down there and some detail so that he fully understands it so that he, when he digs down the deed else, and this is important he's coming from an altitude where he has better bigger perspective, not a silly better but a bigger perspective. So if you sit there and work on a problem

whatever for eight hours in your staring out you if you are planning a mission and you are, you are planning it for hours you're staring at them the maps in the charts, and you forgot all the troops or can be located I come in after eight hours now. Look at your plan from a from a distant perspective. There is a good chance I'll, be the sea holes in your plan that you couldn't see cause your perspective was too close. So so that's good for me to be to come in from a higher perspective and have a look at it, but also there's times where I need get down there and actually look if you're, looking at a promise, they look, I can't figure your boss. I can't figure out how to get to this target and I'm looking at it from a distance, and I dont see I might needed, digging in and looking and saying, oh here's a route that we can take that actually make sense. Let's try that so I think it's a good example of some one going up in

down in altitude to look at problems, understanding, what's happening with the front line troops and, at the same time, being able to go back to the strategic level, and I can the it's probably this way. The reason that he's successful is because he doesn't get stuck down there. Because if he felt the need to micromanage each and every part on a tesla, it wouldn't be here would be very unlikely that he would have the capacity to do all that now he can have over some broad chip design, and say hey. This is what the function needs to be and he gives it to lax and let's go there with your team and you figured out and you make it happen if he had to actually do it all himself, he most likely not possible. So that's what leaders should be doing. They should go elevate and and and and then get down and weeds, and they have to and then go back up the sad thing so the part that makes me not wanted to start up is based his whole life

dealing with emergencies, just like you said, he's not dealing This is not shooting. This shit about details of engineering is deal I would like in this in the case of a company life and death, like something. I can just completely damage the production line, right, costly dealing with emergencies, putting our fires- and I dunno there's somebody be said about the psychology of that of how are the key. spoken himself. The he's worried whether his mind can hold up much longer so hopefully in the near future, who he will start to feel more decentralized command, where he has some subordinate leadership that he fully trust and most important that he has properly trained but they can handle these dated eight fires at least eighty percent of them, so only too percent of the time. Does he actually need to go in and solve a problem. If he's

not doing that right now, then, that's going to end up being a problem any time, so I work with companies all time in this interesting about this I don't want to work with a ceo or with us with the sea suite of accompany it takes a little while the figure out what's going one. I'm kind of going off of the things that you're telling me almost anecdotally rightness, but let's say that what you can and also our know how familiar you actually are with the inner workings of his companies. But if we are soon that what you're saying is accurate, then my advice would be hey, listen, you need start putting a little bit more time and effort into training up some subordinate leadership that has the trust, knowledge and expertise that you we'll be able to turn over some of these. Some of these details to for two reasons: number one. So you can let your brain you you can. You can survive a little longer as he put it, but also all the time.

spend as a leader looking down and into your organization is time that you're not looking up and out. So we do not up and out you're, not seeing what compared he's doing you're, not seeing where the markets going. There's problems that that that can come from that. So if right now, he spinning much time looking down in an you mentioned, Well, you said I don't know if I want to do a startup when you do a startup you're going to be looking down and in for awhile yeah, it's going to take awhile you're going to have to do all this work yourself. You're not gonna. Have the finances to put people manpower behind these things, so. That's probably he maybe he's in that mine said a little bit cause he's done so many start ups over the years and so he's in the he's habitually in the weeds. So my advice would be all right. Let's start look at formulating some subordinate leadership that has that, like, I said, the expertise, the trust that you can. You can start to turn over some of these more minute details, them, so you can start looking up and out yet

he's done that more success when the in some places than others at spacex. A lot of people give or I do ready to go and shower for the sea of the seal o of space acts as a very successful personal runs shit, but in tesla, not as much so. I wonder in common on something else, people worry about, and this applies the lot of tech companies, which is a lot of people worry about that. If your disappears the the creative spirit, the company is, as we know today will collapse, will stagnate and will basically failed to do they have been doing for so many years successfully is there? Some aspect too, are what makes a goodly

or that, if you disappear, it's still the thing still lives on and not just lives on, but thrives. Yes, sir. What we have to do in those situations is, we have to establish a strong culture inside that organization and, if you're, that there's there's there's reasons why this happens right, if I ever big ego and I form a company, and I love the fact that every one looks at me and said: o jacko made this company and he's the creative force behind this company in that you may go and it makes me feel good, an enormous and with you lax and every time you come up with an idea. I said: lexical you need to stain your box right from not creating a culture that rewards that sort of creativity and eventually, when I die, won't, have educated my team on how to maintain it. Creative aspect so again, hopefully

inside that organization his he's? courage in and growing that culture where creativity is rewarded where, where it flourishes, even when he's gone, that we have to hope for he is, but I also seem to notice that does not make people like him. People become complacent too easily at this important have been disappoint. by people at a bit like success, makes people soft that will be on it seems like success, doesn't have any effect as the reverse effect it doesnt. It's like. What's the net, it's always like what next big thing he's living that exponential growth, which I think that's the problem that you have to have somebody who is constantly trying to find it

next solution like trying to constantly improve things and restlessly that to me, that probably has to do with finding the right people, not just green culture, but korean culture with the rights of people, speaking of which steve jobs. There is. Two things I want to mention their wanting once again, the harshness, but a very different kind, and the second his team buildings on the harshness He is marching should any on you were in the following way. he says he will not like this, but, unlike the defendant, He loses his shit quite a bit. He was famously especially early on being very emotional, his lead Passion dominate the discussion. There were a lot of firing

There will be a lot of mean. Things said to people. I don't know what to make of that. Huh. she's a leader. Are you allowed to just lose your shit in your love for thing you're doing and how effective is that as a leader he shouldn't be doing that very often so you can. back at me and say: well, jacko, here's the most profitable please it's ever existed and so you're wrong. Well, going back to that malta multitude of characteristics that human beings can have the same thing with businesses, the same thing with companies, Steve jobs was off the charts in some of his traits his ability to understand design. his ability to understand human face with computer systems, so so far off the charts that, despite his,

bad temper emotional behaviour, the company still thrived, that's that can happen. You can have people that you'd there's beacon of people that are horrible leaders that develop something. That's so universally outstanding that you end up With a company that successful, I am the reason I mean I get asked that a bunch. You know people always asked me because I say look you. You should be You shouldn't be losing your temple as temper as a leader. What about steve jobs he used to yell and scream all the time great? I might when people say that to me I say: oh, okay, are you as good as at designed as steve jobs? Was we are use good gear? Are you good at marketing as steve jobs was theirs? He had said a certain amount of skills that were off the charts, and so he was able to be successful despite the fact that he would lose his temper treat people horribly. That's not does not good

margaret and it would have been even more successful if you, if you wouldn't had those characteristics now you might say: well he his anger is what pushed things well. Let me ask you this: what leader wins the leader coups team is afraid who lived the team who execute executes the mission because they're afraid of their leader or executes the task, because they're afraid of their leader or the team that loves their leader so much that they dont want to let them down which team, once your imply a confidence that love is more powerful than fear. But I'm not so sure is the Machiavelli question. Yes, ultimately, is always better to lead by inspiration and love than by by putting the fear into this

What I'm! What I'm saying is that I've seen countless times is me: leave through my authority, leading through my rank, leading through punitive measures, is infinitely worse than me and you working together as a team to win on. The second point is Steve jobs Is he has this idea, philosophy of a players where you have a group like the power and the productivity of a group of what he called a players is invaluable, so you want to get a team of people who are the what they do, but the most important aspect to him was that a single currency will be player on the team, destroys the entire criteria, the team

Is there something I rings true to that's a he was a gave. This could be a temper thing, but vicious firing and removing the what he's felt was a toxic, be player in a team, so a players feed off of each other unless there's one be player present, depends on the nature of the people. is the player, is the player. A bee player because he's a little bit lazy is here, he player because he doesn't have good vision. Is he a b

player because he's got a big ego and always thinks he's right and now create conflict in the team. So there's a bunch of different, be players, look if you're working for me and your kind of a bee player, but guess what you're a grinder and you get stuff done. I want you on the team beat, you might not be the smartest person I have, but I know that you're are committed to the team and I want you wanna team. So your be player, but that's ok. Now, if you, if you're lex with a giant ego? I'd rather have I'd rather have lex, it's not quite as smart cause. I got other people that are smart. I got other people that are smaller Look you're gonna need some smart people on team, but a team is made a team, and so you take these different components of a team. and if you have complimentary components, you'll end up with a superior team, then just basing it on,

the level and what's in a player, sometimes in this seal teams they would get something called stacked platoon and what that would be. As someone you know, some senior person in that policy dune, would manipulate and and and maneuver to get the quote best guys that he could in that platoon. So you know the most experienced guys. The person that I great great reputations and sometimes those balloons be great. Sometimes they would implode, because what you end up with is a bunch of a players and now no one wants to follow any one else. No one wants to agree with her nails. we want to do it my way, not it's my way, not lex way. Lex is stupid, know you're stupid. We end up with problems, so Can one person derail a team absolutely under good leadership. One person should not derailed team. This could be attacked. Think,

there's some multiplying effect of just pure excellence, no matter the personalities, I think, foresees jobs, the work he does the eager doesn't matter. None of that matters. What matters is the quality of the output, they d gene as a the result and that somehow multiplies itself and they egos actually make what one of the problems with egos is like what is it I usually say it says, are much better than you. We have people that are really good together is very hard for that you go to flourish, cozier like constantly being shown that you're not as good and there's a competition, so I I think to his his idea. Was that like, if you get people there really good at what they do, it too as opposed to you being complacent and not do much and thinking about than everyone else in your penny. As better, is you almost getting in that competitive race that magic there?

but when you're at the Of a marathon and you're just like head to head like you're, just going full steam with a person at it, as good as you there's no place for each other, which is great, which is great. Let's use that example. You and I are racing were at the end of the marathon, we're both highly com additive highly competitive, we have massive egos and we both want to win. We both want to win so bad that we we give everything we ve got. That's totally positive right is not only positive. Now Imagine this same thing we're in a race wearing a marathon where Last hundred meters- it's you against me and our egos are huge and were pushing to win? And you start to pull ahead of me and my ego is so big. and I hate losing so much. That I somehow accident we push my knee up against your foot. Unabashed.

Right and throw you want your face, so that's what eagle egoism awesome driver unless you let your ego control you and you? Let ego trip driver decision making process, in which case it turns into at an incredible problem. So you might have some one. That is excellent. You might have someone that's outstanding. You may have some someone, that's tens across the board, but their ego is so bid that big that they can work with other people They can't accept anyone else's ideas. They can't compromise on something, as they think they're ideas better all the time, and that is going to be problematic and I dont want them on the team now as a good leader, guess what I'll do I'll put them into a situate and where I can utilise their best aspects, but not have their ego, destroy the team, so I might say, hey election of what actually wants you to take lead on this part of the project over here

and since yourself, smart and you'd, you worked so hard. I know you're gonna, pull ahead of everyone else, so yeah grind on that, once you get that result, give it me and I'm disseminated to attain this, so I I I isolate you from wrecking yourself and the rest of the team with your giant ego So then, looking at a completely opposite persons, this fascinating person to misinterpret asunder who's. The ceo of alpha bessie of Google. I admire the in a romantic sense. The madness that is, I received albania, musk said to me, the opposite. It that an of preacher whose, like everybody, loves him. And I he's also great listener. He always brings people together and so, when the the

g of that person. Room is like the basic energy, power. To summarize the design. I wanna hear all the voices in the room. That's the energy he brings and it's almost sake, he doesn't want to impose a final decision. He wants to hear all the voices and somehow always the decision just falls out. I don't know what to say about that stuff leadership resource surprising to me how that love brought a lot of people together. and still I mean some of the greatest things Google has done over the past several years could be attributed to that continued innovation, bringing out the best out of people. There is, of course, bureau priscilla jacket criticized the end of the day, which always happens of big companies. Our actually the dictatorial style, Steve jobs in your mosque help fight the bureaucracy, which is one criticism I would give

of being a listener. Being kind is sometimes. Can't cut through the bullshit as effectively, but he he's. One of the only people have ever heard of everybody loves his inspirational figure to millions, especially enough in India he's a celebrity in the best kind of way? Does their sunday disabled that kind of leadership where you are now were they asshole you? Never the dictator europe was the listener and the compassion pathetic glue. That brings the team together. Basically, would love yards? That's great leadership if you had to choose for Google. for large companies. Is there something to be said about what is more effective? The dictator, though

ruling by love ruling by fear for small all everything's a dichotomy right and so to think that all the time you're always gonna be able to just bark or the people in their always gonna, listen to you and you're gonna get the best result. That would not be smart to think that every single time, you're gonna come to a one hundred percent consensus amongst the troops and that decision going to reveal itself without you, urging it along. That would also be short, sighted and naive so you what a good leader does day. They they stay balanced and as much as they can. They listen to what the troops have to say. They take that feed back. Maybe they quiet nudge things, and I'm am sure he does that I'm sure he does nothing that made no one, even picks up on your eye like to say that the best form of leadership is leadership with minimum forced required so If I can go into a room as a leader and not so,

one single thing and the team can come to the right consensus and move in that direction. That's my preferred method! Maybe I have to give a little bit of a nudge, a ten percent nudge in one direction. Ok, that's bad than me, walking in there and giving them one hundred percent dictatorial direction. of exactly what I want to have happened now. Ok, Only if we have an emergency situation, people are starting to be frazzled and they're, not sure which direction ago. Then, some time is a leader. You have to walk in and say alright everyone, here's where we're going and people get on board. Why? because for many years or monster, however long you ve trusted them to come up with a plan. And when you trot when you as a leader, trust your team to come up with a plan. The team starts to trust you and you get leadership capital and, as you build leadership capital occasionally you need cash in some of that leadership cap. We need to spend some of it, and maybe it is hey. Listen! Here's a dry,

We're going right now, will debrief it later, but we gotta make a move and the team who trust you says roger that boss, we got it. And all of them actually do this interesting thing. I'd love to hear your opinion on it. The us asunder, sir It does it to a large degree, which is it it's in the process of delegation, trusting a person to do a really difficult thing like tossing it up and saying, like. I trust you can get it job done for some, even if your resume does not support at a my cheek of amazed the human beings when their given the trust to get the job done they step up. we often has cut of amazing property of human nature. People often,

many issues about leadership and I always say that one of the best tools for teaching leadership and for teaching a bunch of other lessons is leadership itself. So when it happens all the time new elevate someone into a leadership position, they do step up and they do make things happen. So that's not surprising to me. You do have to now the gate risk so saying hey be no lacks. I know you're, they haven't been in military before I know you have very limited weapons experience but I want you to run a target assault on a real mission in what For country that would not be good. That will not be a good move on on my part. Now, if I said I let you know what I want you to get some leadership experience I've got a training mission and it's gonna be in paintball and I'm going to put you in charge of it. I got no problem doing it. Some of that is judging human character is like there's potential there's something in this

person that they are. They have enough demons or whatever the hell it requires have that fuel they'll figure it out, though, hate themselves if they dont a find the right dead. The fine, the tools of find the path, though. To achieve that, whatever the level of protection again, surprising, to me it's been making me rethink of the whole hiring process, because I often now I'm thinking looking for some looking for people both for the startup or just for my own life to help, and I almost Wanna see evidence of excellence, but maybe you want to just basin's just judgment of human character without evidence of accidents have people step up like Joe rogan, which Amy S was a funny cited. I didn't understand how little joe nearby Jamie, when he hired him and jamie stuff

dup and now runs one of the most successful podcast ever and that's an incredible canon and is one of the best producers in the world now not to let it get to us and by the way the funny thing about him and one of the best google or in the world about the school is the defining. What jamie this is. Ok, you may not like this, but what I want. I like I'm, constantly exceptionally self critical to appoint of night self hating. Sometimes I deeply appreciate every single moment I'm alive, but everything I've ever done. I feel like a ship and when I talk to jamie about everything, he's done he's so just in every way. He cares himself he's so self critical. He saw worry that is wrong is bad that act

it's energy. I love it cause that that's how you lead to growth and progress like you might like a therapist might say. That's probably not good for your, like, while being phuket. It's good for the what's good, for your well being is to create awesome things that me why at least to have ass it did to create the best thing you can in your life and ass, When I see that in the summit I jamie here anyway, I talk to when you really self critical, that's a good site me. I is that ridiculous, ridiculous at all, and it goes back. You know you were you were the way. Phrasing these questions about what makes good personal, what makes a good leader the way you phrase them com have eliminated the normal? answer that I give the normal answer that I give you asked me what makes a good leader what makes good person is, is being humble, so

when you're going to hire someone for europe for your start up or whenever company or creating that is a key characteristic to look for is someone that has the human woody likely like young jamie to say yeah. You know I I done this better and here's what I can improve and here's what I need to work on when you have somebody that thinks they know everything and out of the gate. You're you're already got someone that can be hard to deal with. They're gonna be hard to coach they're going to be hard mentor when you have somebody that truly humble you barely again its minimum force required, because when you say to jamie to show. How do you think that when he says well, you know I did this wrong and I didn't have this set up in time and you don't you don't barely have to do anything because he's got the humility if you've got someone, that's big ego and you say hey how. How did that show go because I went awesome.

And now guess what you have to do now, you have to start applying force as a leader which is expanding leadership capital, which we don't want to do cause. We always try and conserve our leadership capital as much as we possibly can and when we have to expend it just to get jamie to make some improvements. That's bad! So When you go looking for people look for people at a humble now, does this mean you look for people that dont have any confidence? No, that's! Not what I'm saying there's a balanced all these things as dichotomy of leadership you, but people tend towards and look I work with a lot of military troops in the past, now work with companies. The reason talk about humility. All the time is because for someone to be get into a lie. Shit position in the military. They have to have confidence, so the tendency is that their confidence is going

our way their humility at some point same thing with with civilian companies. If you get to a point of leadership inside of company, you have to have confidence to get there. You don't get to a position of leadership inside of company lacking confidence, so the tendency is for confidence to to grow a little bit too much, and we have to put that put that confidence in the check. With put that he going to check really good leaders their confident but their humble. That's the balance of the dichotomy here that jamie don't get cocky on occasion. Rarely you talk about the discipline. What is The plant life look like doing what you're supposed to do.

What if I went away and the college in each heels and why so barbarous? That's that's not that doesn't feel like discipline did. Do you think you're supposed to do that. Well, you know you could argue from us at the meaning of life perspective that perhaps happiness is the most important and if it makes me happy, perhaps that sam, if its fulfilling Of course, the inky does watch so proper this feeling for nobody whatsoever next question, but there's something discipline, that's more than that which is like the rigour of habit. I you you wake up early in the morning all the time. What is a Jordan petersen talks about make your bed, One place we probably agree with Jordan. People ask me if I make my bet, I don't.

there's a disagreement with georgia. You know when I was younger before I was married. I didn't make my bed because I had one sleeping bag on it and I would get what sleeping back, there's nothing to make now I'm married- and I can't make my bed my wife's in my bed, so I don't make my bed. Ok. So what in your life? Maybe we can talk about the one that's most publicly face? same, which is you wake up before clock around four? back in the morning he posts on social media sure your watch, it being early just to remind people that here you are a man of your word. What's that about was the philosophy of the four o clock What role does that plane? A discipline life for you, ok from map, respect,

What role it plays is getting a jump on the day and when you wake up early and you get a jump on the day and you ve got your work out down and you ve got a little but a little bit of work done by the time. Normal people are getting up either, that's a win, that's a psychological win and it's not just the psychological and it's an actual win, its an actual wind, so that feels great? It doesn't feel great, maybe when your alarm cargoes off, but by the clock in the morning, and you ve already accomplished some of them. major tasks that you have some of the most painful task that you have for the day, you're off to a great start, and it's going to feel great, let's break this down, then what does then the rest of the day? Look like what is the perfect productive

discipline day in the life of jacko willing, look like wake up work out, wake up, one for four thirty or caught one, five, five to six or seven no eating, and then what is the work out look like depends on the day What was the perfect we're talking about body weight, lifting cardio heavy bag? Jitsu well, yeah. When I say work out, I mean no judea too so did you doesn't? Did it comes later? This is just you along dismay alone, working out the anomaly. be doing of a wide variety of things that this is the thing that has the pictures of the aftermath with us this is a fearsome sweat at the so the goal

Do whatever the hell results in some sweating and that takes an hour. Sometimes it takes twelve minutes. Sometimes it takes three hours depending on what kind of mood I'm in he got some demas to work through his chest. Is this just work, I gotta are we so yet the deva goggins, whose egg who clearly has done screaming inside of his head. They he's trying to work through. I use his game. The work done out of the discipline. Are you is this sir? I think Joel elizabeth demagogues is like there's some you go. There's some bullshit you trying to get out through some of the exercise is a good way, A humble used is doing that exercise. Well, Besides it certainly humbling, I mean it's but its physical conditioning rights, preparing your your body so that you can handle whenever it is you're gonna do perfect.

whereas what would you do after start where food hopefully serve if the where's your good serve, for how good the waves? Let's say their good is the perfect day is a perfect, perfect ways. Why do you surf the divine, this is fun. Ok, man, man and nature ocean like what surfing is the is the power the infant, the power of the ocean. Versus little silly. Looking man on a board, you could say it's the The power of the ocean versus the silly looking man on a board- or you could say it's fun rationale. comments. As again, this is for fund in the morning beautiful you're still happening now. So when do you I usually start grazing. around eleven o clock, I'm grazing? What's the was the diet? The super is their perfect. I redeem

raise? Ah how it's not sooner home? Something like that, I usually A great may well have a little piece of meat. Something like that. Does work entering this, I'm sure yeah. A lot of people that want your attention, yeah ya know. Work is work as you're about to happen cause you know, even if I, for woke up at four, worked out from five to six surf from six to eight now, I'm starting to work, writing recording reading talking to clients Is their parts of the day? Were you try to find moments to think deeply to read deeply serve, really focus, because this world wants is for the same hence right, even talking to that even work, stuff dixie and all those kinds of things they can scatter, your mind, their ties. Use seek to have that focus. Well, I read a lot a box.

And so usually, when I read I'll, be reading fer a chunk of time, maybe an hour at a time maybe but longer- and I do that twice a day, so modern off that council, what you're describing by air then same thing with writing when I, when I'm writing something I mean I just that's what I do. I write usually reducing right for about an hour. I can get about a foul words in our out of me. So that's disorder. What I do. What is right They look like just a lot of work, but once the jets are I want to find out about the jets are so round round four thirty five o'clock at night, the train- and I are hard you still hi. How are you doing body wisest the automat the master guided her are you talking to me.

it'll? It it'll be good for viewers shipper ratings if I die before the end of the podcast, so I I train with the same guys and I'll train. You know so I've been very lucky when it comes to getting injured and stuff like that. So Haven't I've had some injuries, but there are other healed and so yeah train, and food wise. You mentioned grazing a sum of some nuts. A very light kind of things is their main meal here, yeah at night a night do high in protein, or is it or anything yeah I'll have like a steak and salad I'll usually have for dessert like a protein shake, so is there A thing where, at the end of them, at the end of the day you like you have, I got summarize sword and you meditate and death. and others cousin is. Is there somewhere ritual you be taken now

he's got a bad. When I get done with the end of the day, I might read a little bit more dismal yeah, because only early on a real reading makes me tired, usually so I read a little bit more. Is it he too, you dig in speeches that makes for productive day just the way you approach it mentally yeah write down what you're supposed to do, wake up early and start doing it and then get it done yeah. Now it's a miraculous trick. Cask you a budget, sir. by all means? What have you learned from being practitioner? Your a black? What have you learned from this journey of being a marshall artist, Digits, for me, was the connective tissue that started join my mind together with all the different aspects of my life and so

judge you for me was was really important and I dont think I would be doing anything that I'm doing right now, if it wasn't for jujitsu. So there's various aspects of my life that were in existing. but I didn't understand how they were connected until I started. Train judges are the primary things. Are interacting with other human beings and combat tactics and strategy and jujitsu, and all those things are connected. They all follow the same. Guiding principles and I wouldn't have recognised those guiding principles. If I didn't do judges key, elaborate, give trained for many many years. What time is it the heart is it the humbling nature of just being tapped? All of you know nonstop or I actually don't know how many tests. a better more times than you? Ok, so good? Is it just the hardship

nickel training like the honesty of the man in the sense that, like you know, works and what doesn't work, which which aspects were the most impact for faith all aspects? So yes from our humanity perspective when you realize you think you were when you think you know what you're doing when you think you have certain skills annual, There's always somebody better. The union realised that hey. Maybe I don't have all the answers all the time and you bring that to a leadership perspective and you. walk into your platoon and you realize it may be. Don't have all the answers all the time, and maybe you should listen what other people have to say. You bring that to a bad situation, and you realize that you think if you sit there and think that yours, martyr than the enemy you're gonna, be complacent. You're gonna make mistakes so there's one aspect out of the gate as far as You know if I, if I'm going to, try and get your arm do I attack your arm.

maybe not directly summer, wipe out exactly what do I do, attack your neck and when you reach up to defend your neck. That's when I get your arm. Well, if I'm out on the battlefield then there is an enemy position. Try attack frontal us into that position. Now I shouldn't I should put down some coffee. Fire and I should maneuver around the flank the same thing if dealing with you and you're my boss, and you ve got a giant ego and you ve come up the plan, and I, like your planchet, I walk up to you and say: hey lex, your plan isn't good, or, should I say, hey lex, can I ask you some questions about You want us to execute this cause. I want to make sure I understand your vision, so all these things are connected Yes- and I wouldn't have realised that aim- that we could sit here and do this forever, we could we could. I could tell you these comparisons forever, but this all this can, if tissue bringing all these things together, I wouldn't have seen it

Now I dont think I would have seen it without jujitsu so jujitsu to me had had a incredible life impact on me, not look the physical part. Yes, absolutely does it. Does it keep you humble when you No, that there's a hundred and forty five pound individual that can tap you. when you're, two hundred and twenty pound twenty five year old guy- there's a hundred and thirty five or hundred forty pounds in forty six year old guy that can make you tap out. That's humbling, and and what do you do with that? Do you run away from it or do you continue to pursue it same thing with life same thing with anything, so jujitsu is an incredibly powerful, not just physical, ass backed, but it's a way to understand. The whiff thinking evolves. Also competed is this of the and speak to them

You have competition. Obviously you ve been through combat actual military combat is many. Many many orders of magnitude more high stakes than company thus in a silly sport like jitsu. Nevertheless, ass, it still has some of the echoes of the same challenges, is there something you speak to the value of competition. For you there competition route will reveal weaknesses in your game that you can then go back and trained to rectify, so that as well useful to serve on yeah as it testing ground? Of course true. It could be that testing ground as well or that feedback europe, but as you and I both know, you and I trained together all the time you game, AMO your game, and even if we have five other people, we all kind of understand each other's games and you're not doing

something to me that I don't expect so when I go and compete and get your do you know this random personas has a game that I've never seen before and I may or may not know how to deal with that game. If I know how to with a great I get the victory, maybe- learn as much. If I dont know how to deal with their game, I get the loss and I get the win of learning. What some weakness my game is: So imagine I find that your friends you work, The june list's turn the domestic one. People that do inspire John Donahoe, who have very much been nah I've gotten a chance to talk to quite a bit recently. I dunno what you think about this. This is not a therapy session but maybe rinsing into, one is turning into one I've that he's a fascinating. my person job on her in terms of creating

almost a size jitsu to a level that I haven't seen before, which is a systems thinking about. You can think about military combat as tactics in a particular situation. he's zoom out, and you want to create entire systems of tactics in all situations, he's very kind. Was it keeps zooming out and creating giant systems? and which I appreciate that either the task is probably impossible to do completely, but there is something s internal competition that he kindled the fire or in me that I want to get back out there. He has a particular thing that did it, which is very different from my personal journey Jesu, which was to degree that a people

I worked with cared about competition. It was always about winning, and or doing well all those kinds of things for John, it's about winning the Winning is that that is not even a thing. This important was most important his way by submission. is or dominates right in the end Third, the end is the entire time competing. that the only thing that matters is that kind of victory and that's a very different level. Competition, actually liberating innocent cut a sense. I will remember so much my competition was about kind of fear of not taking risks. You know you get on points are you hold a strong position, you kind of advance, you get more points, maybe you chase the submission by it is always a fear of risk and for him

you embrace? The risk united should not be competing out of fear. Live and die by the sword. Verses, stay in safety and dunno. If something to be said here, well- I mean this is none. You said it I will do you. It's not novel to me the entire mind our journey on jujitsu do ingenuity, was only about submission and be helpless. as you mentioned, deem de MR is my coach in my main trading partner for twenty something years and if you ever watch dean trainer fight that, what he's trying to do is submit as everyone. That's. What he's was done. That's what he always will do, gigi. You know he has the highest. I think he has, and back no. He has the highest submission victories in eighty city. He that's what he does. So this is in fact, as jujitsu got more

popular and we started seeing people competing to win by points. That was what was novel to me in the beginning. Now it's the standard, so it's not novel to me, I. I love the fact that the John Donna, her and all of his troops go out and they try and submit people. I think it's awesome and I think that's what jujitsu is I let's ask for some advice for wipeouts is a lot of way both to listen to this. What advice would you give you been ingested for many years in terms of a a successful journey through gesture? What advice would you give them? People just starting out just keep training, keep your ego and jack. Don't freak out chinese. The techniques are you learn and all this up, some are saying that you now notice, I'm saying it near a tab out regarding jack and every thing is everyone says it's all time and wipe out so start off by going completely knots, for at least you know, three to six months of

I'm not gonna. Let this guy tat me out and they're gonna to ongoing this guy out, not by using technique but by just using strength and just ass. They just inhibiting you're learning. So as much as you can. I know I know you've got gotta, get it out of your system. I know you don't want a tap and I know you wanted to help somebody. But as soon as you get get that off your chest, then trying to train relax in trying to learn the techniques is perhaps com intuitive and never was to me, but it's color. That, too are to start the journey of really serve mastering jets or wherever are improving, is yet to relax, and that seems to be a very carla jean Louis. I learn that early on with does thanks to the russian system, a play piano and make music, but basically, actually this is true for basically any sport there inclusive the body, is a relaxing. The way you you start learning stuff. Here too,

Yet the literally and most people don't seem to understand. This is like you have to learn what I mean for the human by to relax like I guess you have to enough knowledge of all the muscles involved to know what MR relax, our muscles. So four p m. You have to understand what it means to relax your wrist in your fingers in order to, learn how to move them. I give there's tenseness in the fingers you're not going to make. You have to learn how to try hard while relaxed the. I guess the beginner, if you dont internalize this lesson, will try hard by debt tensing up hard and like trying hard testing up more as opposed to relaxing more and that lesson cannot be. Could conveyed words. I guess I've had the great fortune of having dictatorial teachers as they do in russia, for four piano and so on. We get like hit if

learn to relax, which is a connotative notion. Body works. Yes brings me to one of my favorite If coaching advice that I will tell white belts, while their struggling on the mat I'll tell them to relax harder, it says beautiful, for somebody who studied war who participate in war? What do you think is the best martial arts forearm us called self defence?

for hand to hand combat outside the constraints of sport. So it's not one answer. The answer to me is jujitsu boxing rustling more tie, judo sambo and on down the list, I deaf we start with jiu. The reasons are what you did to his, because in self defense situation, if you are a big monster, human and you want to fight me, And you square off with me, guess what I'm going to do runaway because I don't want, I don't want to get involved. Even if I see skinny little lacks out on the street and you start yelling at me and saying you wanna fight me. I don't want to fight you, I don't it doesn't matter. I do. I don't care if I can beat you're. Not what, if you stab me, what, if you sue me after I get done, throw you under the concrete there's a million bad thing,

It can happen and almost nothing good. So for self defense. My first self defense is my feet to get away from you. If you square off to punch me, I can run away from you if you square off to kick me, I can run away from you. If you push me, I can run away from you so great. I don't need to know how to box to run away from you where this all changes is. When you me and now I dont have the option runaway anymore. Now I actually have to know how to get away from your grip and that's where judges who comes into play. So especially, if you get me on the ground, if you, if you grab me and get me on the ground, now need to know how to get you off of me and get up and get away from you, so I can run away. So that's why I star, would you get to an end from their boxing wrestling judo sambo, my time,

the other side there sit in the standing position, I mean I'm a majuba person as well the Judas very limited in their understanding, the full grappling spectrum, even though do all the things on the ground as well, but there is some folks and feet but nevertheless some point understand the thing and judo- has as a sport and good to practice. That dutch just doesn't is not just the gra, the skill of grappling and the feet, but the skill of explosive aggression that sometimes digits is more about in terms of tactics more about patients, admit the pass. How but because so much is about control and technique that done Sometimes you will get a practice. Nyc aggression, explosive aggression,

and you know so much about aggression impulse. in such a way that the demonstration, powers effortless as the beauty of you, Jesse yeah, saving russian resting- also has a high level of intensity and aggression is why? Yes answer did that's. Where that's where I agree judo and wrestling absolutely awesome, get some And striking boxing more tie, you know like the: u should train all these things are their books and movies in europe, long ago recently that had a big impact on you you're, the main is about face which is sitting right here. There you go. This is written by colonel David hack worth its the, book that really had a massive impact on me from a leadership perspective and I ended up. I talked about it enough that it started kind of coming

I can started selling well and they contacted me and I wrote afford for it, so that had a huge impact on me, and I still when I read it, I still get lessons out of it just about every time so they get no more and career and korea and he got it towards the end of it at right at the end of world war, two so was gonna raised by the the soldiers that fought in. What war too, and then he went to korea and then he went to vietnam an exceptional warrior, a soldier soldier- if you can give a little inkling, what made him a soldier soldier, so I he died in two thousand and five. So I never got to meet him,

And I I had a guy on my podcast who worked for him in vietnam, a guy named general james, muky, alma, and luckily his son had reached out to me and said. I think you're talking about my dad. Could I read some passage in there that that Jim movie almah was young cap. Captain Jim muky imo company commander in vietnam. He said I think, you're talking about my dad. Would you Want to talk to me, I said absolutely where's that, and I didn't really understand- and you read one corporate there's always quotes in that book that talk about how great hack worth wasn one incredible leader ii was how he was the best, that leader, anyone ever seen and all these just really complimentary things that are said by a bunch, different people and when you read the book, you're reading. This guy's account of what he went through.

but I never really knew if that was all true or did he just cherry pick. His friends quotes about him and cherry pick the stories that he wanted to tell. And so it was very interesting for me when I'm met movie on general movie on who you became a general eventually, when I met him, I will talk about his life very curious, and I was a little bit nervous going into this interview because I was thinking maybe my hero. My mentor This guy, who have never met before maybe he's just now arrogant jerk. That talked talked himself up in this book. So I'm sitting down with with general muky alma, and I finally got to the part where he's meeting hack worth for the first time- and I said, did you know, did you know who hack worth was when he showed up so he was muky moved move pick on milk milk was the was the like the adjutant to the to the

general than that was going to that that hack worth as many working for so when hack worth comes into the office. The first personally meets is this guy, this guy can't move mukamba and so hack worth walks in, I said when hack worth walked. In did you know who we want, and mukha yama says everybody knew who it was mr infantry, and he ended up explaining that everything that is in thereabout hack worth there just loved them. They adore them up the chain of command. It turned out a little bit different and the title the book is about face and, if you're familiar familiar with military drill about when you turn around a hundred degrees and at the end- Vietnam enormous towards the end of the vietnam war? he was so disgusted with the way that the war is being fought. He was so disgusted with the decisions that were being made by the leadership that he didn't

interview, he was the first colonel for senior officer to do an interview that spoke out against the war that was held and this while he's in vietnam. By doing so, he got I'm out of the army and he was forced to retire, and that was that. So there is an element of rebelliousness tune, and you know when you talk to me about or are there times when the leaders making leadership. This absolute senior leadership, the civilian leadership he's doing wrong things. Yes, and there are times when people speak out against it and there is an argument for it against that two, even even with awkward. No did he when you get when you quit your or you do something I get you fired, which is what he did. You immediately give up all your influence over what's happening, so they get another yet another battalion manner to take his place. They get another colonel to step in and takes place as they do now. He can't help any we can help his troops, but

that point in the war he loved his men so much that he was sick and with the situation on the ground and east, and he spoke out about it. So that book had a huge impact on me, And, like I said I still, I still read all the time. I read it all the time and I always take lessons from it. The mask love is not usually associate with jacko, but what role does love in terms of friendship in terms of family play in a successful life and life in general? Again, this is putting other people above yourself to see that as love, that is ultimately the implementation of love. I would say yes, jacko. I've been a huge fan of your eyes. You some

who inspires me to get up early to get shit done to be disciplined about my life and to be the best leader, I can be it's really truly an honour and dog. Thank you wasting all you're too valuable time with me. I don't know what you're thinking, but thank you for doing it. thanks rob me on, I can guarantee I'm not as cause you made me sound just out here, like a said, trot people out and I think you're helping a lot of people out with your part. Gasser thanks round me up here to share some of my experiences hopefully I'll see you on the mat one day for sure looking forward to it could be sooner than you think, and it sounds like a threat. Allow it thanks for listening to conversational jackal willing and thank you to linode. Indeed, simplisafe and ground news check them out in a egyptian to support this podcast and now they believe you're some words from Jacko willing

are no bad teams only bad leaders. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time The