The following is a conversation. Daniel smacked burger, a founding, member of the conciliar project that is aimed at improving public sense, making and dialogue. He is interested in understanding how we humans can be the best version of ourselves as individuals and as collectors at all scales, quick mention of our sponsors, ground news, not sweet for semantic magic spoon and better help check them out. In the description to support the spa guest as a side note, let me say that I got a chance I talked to Daniel on and off the mic. For a couple of days, we took a long walk the day before our conversation, I really enjoyed meeting him just on a basic human level. We talked about the world around us with words that carried hope for individual ants, actual contributing something of value to the colony

these conversations of the reasons I love human beings are insatiable striving to lessen the suffering in the world, but more than that, there's a simple magic to two strangers meeting for the first time and sharing ideas becoming fast friends and creating something that is far greater than the sum of our parts have got the experience of that same magic here in austin, with a few new friends and in random bars. In my travels across this country, we're a conversation leaves me the big stupor smaller my face and a new appreciation of this too short to beautiful life. Now is the part of the programme. Where do the advertisements? I try to make his interesting, but I give you time stamps. If you skip, please still check out the spot in the description I don't do advertisements in the middle. I actually think those get where the conversation for view joyless thing, please supported by buying stuff from the sponsors, were very picky by which ones we take on. So I think

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by better help spelled h. E l p help they figure out where you need a match with the lessons. Professional therapist in under forty eight hours have been recently talking to a few researchers from the united states that are working on studies that integrate psychedelics with talk therapy, so it would actually be fascinating if in a future, perhaps distant, but maybe near term future services, like better help, would de almost integrate psychedelics into their therapy. Once psychedelics like a suicide bomber and dna are federally approved, that would be fascinating. There's a lot of studies coming out that show that talk therapy is enhanced by these substances anyway. Overall, talk therapy helps and better hope is easy. Private, affordable and avail

but worldwide check them out at better help that cost less lex? That's better hope that calm, slash lex. Also, in addition, talk there be monsieur you get your died in order, make sure you get some exercise all those things together, help you fight you demons! and become better version yourself. The best version yourself- this is less freedom in pakistan in here, is my conversation with Daniel schmuck hamburger. If aliens were observing earth- thirty entire history- just watching us There were tasked with the summarizing what happened until now? What do you think they would say? Will you think they will a definite summary again, pretty short less than page.

I can now the treasure think I, like a paragraph, four copper sentences. How would you summarize how to say how would the alias summarize do you think all of human civilization. My first thoughts take more than a page, they'd, probably distill it, because if they watched what I mean first, I have no idea if their senses are even attuned to similar stuff to it are senses urgent into or what the nature of their consciousness is like relative to ours and so lets us they're kind of like us, just technologically more advanced to get here from wherever they are. That's the first kind of constraint on thought experiment and then, if they watched of history, I saw the burning of alexandria. They saw that. Two thousand years ago in greece, where

using things like clocks, antiochus area mechanism and then that technology got lost. They saw there wasn't just day steady dialectic of progress to every once in a while. There is a giant fire. The destroys a lot of things that yet giant. I got commotion, the distress a lot of things here and usually self induced. Ah, they would have seen thinking that it ends Oh as there looking at us now as we move past the nuclear weapons age into the fold- globalization, anthropocene, exponential tech, age, still making our decisions relatively similarly to how we did it stone age as far as rivalry game theory type stuff. I I think they would think that this is probably most likely of the planet's it is not going to make it to being intergalactic as we blow ourselves up in the technological adolescents and if we are

owing to we're gonna need some major progress rapidly in the social technologies they can guide and bind and direct physical technologies so that we are safe, source for the amount of power we're getting hitchhikers guide has estimation about how how much of a risk this particular thing poses to the rest of the house. and I think I forget what it was, I think was medium or love. So so their estimation was would be that this, the species of like creatures, is not going to survive long, there's ups and downs in terms of technological innovation. The fundamental nature their behaviour from a game theory perspective has really changed. I have now learned in a fundamental way: how to control and properly incentivize, or probably do the mechanism design of games.

to ensure long term survival, and then they move on to another. do you think there is in a more slightly more serious question? Do you think there's number or perhaps a very, very large number of intelligent, any civilizations out there. S would be: hard to think otherwise. I know I think possum hadn't new article, not that long ago on why that might not be the case that the door, equation, might not be the kind of instore on it. But when I look at the total number of kepler planets that were aware of just collectively and and also like, when that dumb forms were discovered in Mano lake that didn't have the same six primary adams, I think you had arsenic replacing phosphorus, is one of the primary asked said its energy metabolism. We gotta think about that. The building It might be more different, so the physical can

brains, even that the planet's have to have might be more different. Ah, it seems really unlikely, not not to mention interesting things that we have observed that are still unexplained, as you have our guests on your show discussing Tiktok and all those who have visited will its diver into that would make sense of the rich human psychology of there being hundreds of thousands, probably millions of witnesses, of your father different kinds on earth most of which I presume our conjured up by the human mind through the procession system. Some number might be true the same number may be reflective of actual physical objects, whether it sir drowns testing military technology that secret or other world

technology. We make sense of all that because it's getting quite a bit of popularity recently. There is some sense, a wish that some that's us humans being hope oh and dreaming of other worldly creatures as a way to escape the gene. And ass, a bar of the human condition, but in another sense it could be a really could be something truly exciting that science should turn its eye towards. So what are you? What are you place? It and speaking of turning I towards this is one of those super fascinating, actually super, in sequential possibly topics that I wish I had more time to study and just have an allocated toy. I don't have firm beliefs on this cause. I haven't got a studied as much as I want. So what I'm going to say comes from a superficial assessment and While we know there are plenty of things that people thought

as you have a saying that we can fully right off? We have other better explanations for them lower interested and is the one tat we don't have better explanations for the not just immediately jumping to a theory of what it is, but a holding it as an identified being being curious in earnest. I think there the tick tock. One, is quite interesting and made it in me. Your media recently, but I don't have you ever- saw the disclosure project and instead of greer organised, a bunch of most u s military and some commercial flight people who had direct observation and classified information, disclosing cnn briefing, and so you saw high ranking generals, admirals fighter, pilots all describing things if they saw on radar with visual with their own eyes or cameras and all

the describing some phenomena that had some consistency across different people, and I find this interesting enough that I think it would be silly to just dismiss it and and specifically like we couldn't Can I ask the question: how much of it is natural phenomena ball, lightning or something like that? and this is why I am more interested in what fighter pile some astronauts and people who are trained in being able to identify, objects and atmospheric phenomena have to say about it. I think the thing it then you, you could say well are they more advanced military craft it's some kind of inhuman craft the, trusting thing that a number of them describe something that's kind of like right angles at speed or not right angles, acute angles at speed, but something that looks

indifferent relationship to inertia than physics make sense for us. I don't think that their any human technologies that are doing that, even in really deep underground black projects. Now one could say: ok what could it be a hologram, What would it shop on radar freighters also seeing it, and so I don't know- I think, there's enough I mean and that to be a massive, coordinated sign up. Is it as interesting and ridiculous in a way as the idea that at u f o's from some extra planetary source? So it's it's up there on the interesting topic, to me, there is, is that all alien technology, it is, did thomas Version availing technologies is so far away. It's like the old old crappy, vhf tapes of alien technology. Is you like crap

be drawn suggests floated, or you like space to the love of like space junk, because it is so close to our human technology, which Bought it moves in ways that, unlike orientation for physics but still As very similar kind of geometric notions and something that we We can proceed with our eyes. All those guys are things I feel like technology most likely be something that we would not be able to perceive not because their hiding, but does it so far advanced that? Did you be much it would be beyond the cognitive capabilities of us humans just You were saying, as per your answer, for gillian summarizing earth. It saw the starting, something is they have similar perception system There are similar cognitive capabilities and

that they will may not be. The case may ask about, railways for just a little longer, because I think it's a good transit talking about governments and human societies. Do you think if you ask me remained or any government was in possession of an earlier spacecraft, or of information related to is spacecraft. They We do have the capacity structurally. Would they have the processes? Would they be able to. Communicate that to the public effectively or would they keep it seeker in a room and do nothing with it both of us to try to preserve military secrets, but also,

because of its incompetence that inherent to be bureaucracy or either we can certainly see when certain things become declassified, twenty, five or fifty years later, that there were things that the public might have wanted to know that were kept secret for a very long time. For reasons of least supposedly national security which is also a new source of plausible deniability fur people covering their ass for doing things that could be problematic and other purposes. There are there's a scientist at Stanford who supposedly got some material that was right, bird from area. Fifty one type area did analysis on it using. I believe, electron microscopy in the couple other methods and came to the end.

the year that it was a nanotech alloy. There was Thing we didn't currently have the ability to do was not naturally occurring there, but I have heard some then again, like I said, I'm I'm not gonna stand behind any these. Could I haven't done the level of study to have high confidence. I think what you said also about would be super low tech, alien craft. Would they necessarily move their Adams round in space or might they. something more interesting than that might be able to have a different relationship to the concept of space, or, information or consciousness, or one of the things that the craft supposedly do is not only accelerate and turn in a way that looks not inertia but also disappear. So there's a question ass to like the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive and it could be possible to some people run a hypothesis,

us that they create intentional amounts of exposure, is an invitation of a particular kind. Who knows interesting, feel we tend to assume. city. That's listening up for aliens out there just been recently reading more more ball gravitational waves, and you have orbiting black holes at orbit each other. They generate ripples and space time, On my er for fun at night, when I lay in bed, I think about what it would be like to ride those waves when they are not, not the world magnitude, they are as it when they reach earth, but would get closer to the black holes because it basically be shrinking and expanding us in all dimensions, including time, so it actually ripples through space time it.

Generate. Why is it that you couldn't use? That is travels the speed of light trousers its b, which are very weird thing to say when you, when you're morphing space time, it's it's come it's it's. You could argue faster than the speed of light, So if you are able to communicate by the summer enough energy to generate black holes and two orbital too, to force them to obey each other, why not travel as the ripples in space time and whatever the hell. That means somehow combined with wormholes. So if you're able to communicate through that, we don't think of gravitational waves as something you can communicate

It was because the the radio will be have to be the same, a very large size of very dense, but perhaps that's it. You know, perhaps that's one way to communicate very effective way and That would explain like we wouldn't even be able to make sense of that of the physics that results Alien species is able to control gravity at that scale. I think you just jumped up the kurdish have scale so far softly you're, not just harnessing the our other star, by harnessing the power of mutually rotate black holes. I I'd that's way above my physics, pay greater think about including even non rotating black hole versions of trans warp travel. I think you know you can talk with Eric more about that. I think he has better. It is on it than I do. My hope for the future of humanity mostly does not

rest in the near term on our ability to get to other habitable planets in time and even more than that in the list of possible solutions of via huh prove human civilization, orbiting black hole. Is not in the on the first page for you and not on the first page cap. I bet you did not expect us to start this conflict later, but I'm glad the places it went in I am excited animal smaller scale mars. You Europe or a titan venus having very like bacteria like life forms, has done on it small human level filled with scary, but mostly really exciting, that there may be life elsewhere. in the volcanoes in the oceans? All around us

The teeming having let us societies and whether those properties about the kind of life that somehow different that out I know, will be more exciting if those costs he's a single cell type organisms, what would be more exciting if their different her there same if they are the same, they means through the rest of the universe. There's life forms like us, something like us everywhere. If they're different, that's also really exciting cause. There's life forms everywhere. They're not like us. That's a little bit scary. I don't know, what's actually action, I think both scary and exciting, no matter what rate the idea that they can be very different. His philosophically very interesting bristol, been aperture on what life and consciousness in and self replicating Possibilities could look like the question on

A different to the same omitted has lots of life here. That is the same in some way indifferent in other ways when you take the thing that we call an invasive species as something that still pretty the same hydrocarbon based thing, but co evolved with coastal, the pressures in a certain environment. We moved to another environment might be devastating to that whole ecosystem cause it's just different enough that it messes up the self stabilizing dynamics of that ecosystem, so the question of are they? Would they be different in ways where we could still figure out a way to inhabit a biosphere together orphan mentally, not fundamentally the nature of her they operate and the nature of how we operate would be incommensurable is of direct question. Well, we all fly thought about mimetic theory right. It seems like if there are sufficient

in a different where we would not even we can coexist on different planes, seems like a good thing if were close enough together to work would be Competing than its you're getting into the world of viruses pathogens, all those kinds of things were with one of us. would die off quickly through basically mass murder, without even even accidentally, even exile, if we just had a self replicating single cell kind of creature. That happened to not work well, for the drew carbon life. It was here the god introduced because he either output, something that was toxic or utilised up the same resource to quickly and it just replicated faster, mutated, faster. It wouldn't be a mimetic theory conflict very kind of harm. It would just be a sign of online

in michigan self replicating machine that was fundamentally income. had with these kinds of self replicating systems with faster router loops forward. final time? Putting your alien rise god had on, and you look at human civilization. The do you think about, the seven point. Eight billion people on earth, as individual little creatures individually, organisms, or do you think of us as one organism with the collective intelligence. was the proper framework through which to analyze it. again as an alien to that. I know where you're coming from what you have asked the question the same way before the end of the resolution before the agriculture revolution when they were half a billion people and no telecommunications connecting them. I would

indeed asked the question the same way, but I'll be less confident about about your conclusions. You'll, be it actually more interesting way to ask the question at that time, but I was never, ask it the same way. Yes, well, let's go back further and smaller. rather than just the same human or the entire human species. Let's look at in a relatively isolated tribe is in relatively isolated, probably so Dunbar number sub can hundred fifty people tribe. Do I look at that as one entity where evolution is selecting fort based on group selection? Nor do I think of it as a hundred and fifty individuals that are interact? in some way,. Or could those individuals exist without the group know the evolutionary adaptive nest of humans was involved. Critically group select,

and individual humans alone, trying to figure out stoned. and protection and whatever ah aren't what was selected for and so think the or is the wrong frame. I think it's. Individuals are affecting the group that they are part of they are also dependent upon and being affected by. The groups at their part of. And so this now start to get an deep into political fairies. Also witches theories at oriented towards the collector at different scales, whether a tribal scale or an empire, a nation state or something and ones that orient towards the individual liberalism and stuff like that- and I think, there's very obvious failure. Modes on both sides, and so the relationship between them is more interesting to me than either of them. The relationship between the individual and collective and the questioner on how to have a virtuous process between those, so the good social,

then, would be one where the organism of the individual and the organism of the group of individuals is they're, both synergistic to each other. So what is best for the individuals and, what's best for the whole, is lined, but there is nevertheless an individual or not it's a it's a matter of degrees, I suppose. But what is what defines human, more, the the social network, with a name which they have been brought up to which they have developed their intelligence, sit there on sovereign, individual self. But what your intuition of how much not just for evolution survival, but as intellectual beings How much do we need others? Far our development yeah

I think we have a weird sense of this today, relative to most previous periods of sapient history. I think the vat majority of sapient history is tribal like, depending upon your early, women model, two or three hundred thousand years of homicide and little tribes where they depended upon the tribe for survival end Communication from the tribe was was fatal. I think they and whole evolutionary genetic history is and then limits and the amount of time we ve been out of it, as is relatively so tiny, and then we still depended upon extended families and local communities more and the big kind of giant market complex where I can provide something to the market, to get money to be able to get other things from the market where it seems like. I don't need any. It's almost like disinter mediating, our sense of need, even though, even though

you're my ability to talk to each other, using these makes on the phone to be coordinated on, took millions of people over six continents to be able to run the supply chains and made all the stuff that we depend on, but we don't notice that we depend upon them. They all seem fungible if you take it, baby. Obviously that you didn't even get to a baby without a mom was dependent depend upon each other rate without due to set minimum and they depended upon other people. But if we take that baby we put it out in the wild and obviously dies. So if we let it grow up for little while the minimum amount of time work starts to have some autonomy, and then we put it out in the wild and that this has happened a few times. doesnt learn language, and it doesn't on the arctic. The small motor articulation that we learn it doesn't learn then type of consciousness.

We end up having that is socialized. So I think I think we take for granted. How much conditioning affects us. Is it possible that It affects basically ninety nine point, nine or maybe the whole thing. The whole thing is the connection between us humans and there were. where are no better than apes. Without the argument connections, because that the oak give it that way, forces its think very differently. Volume is deciding how to progress forward. Is the connections are fundamental I just have to do they know better than apes cause better. Here, I think you mean a specific thing, which means have capacities that are fundamentally different than I think. Apes also depend upon troops. Yes, and I I think the idea of humans as better then nature in some kind of ethical said since of having heaps of problems will table

We can come back to it, but we say what is unique about homo sapiens capacity relative to the other animals. We currently inhabit the basket with, and I'm saying that way, because there were other early hominids it had some of these capacities. We believe. Our tool creation in our language creation and our coordination are all kind of the result of a certain type of passively for abstraction and animals will use tools, but they don't evolved the tools they use. They keep using the same types of tools that they basically can find. So a chair We notice that a rock can cut a vine that it wants to and it'll even notice that a sharper rock will cut it better and experience lately used a sharp iraq and if you even give it a knife and probably use the knife cause it's experiencing the effectiveness, but it doesn't stone tools, because that requires understood ending why one is sharper than the other. What is the abstract principle called sharpness today

able to invent a sharper thing that same abstraction makes language and the ability for abstract representation which eggs, the ability to coordinate and a more advanced set of ways. So I do think our ability- coordinate with each other is pretty fundamental to the selection of what we are as a species. I wonder if that coordination, that connection is actually the thing that gives birth to consciousness that gives birth. This was, let's start with self awareness more, like theory of mind theory of mind yeah, Cleaner, I, I suppose, there's experiments that show that there's other mammals that have a very crew theory of mind, not sure- maybe dogs since, like that, but actually dogs probably has to do with that they coevolved with humans. The eu be interesting. If that theory of mind is what leads to.

Consciousness in the way we think about. It is the richness of the subjective experience at his consciousness. I ever inkling sense that that only exists, because, where social costs yours that that doesn't come off with this with the hardware and the software any in the beginning. That's a guy! That's learned as an effective tool for communication almost agreed. We think we, I think we think that consciousness is fundamental and may maybe is not

now. There's a bunch of folks can criticise the idea that the illusion of consciousness is cautiousness, that it is just a facade. We used to two are hopeless construct theories of mind. You must put yourself in the world as the subject of being. In that experience, you wanted richly experience it as an individual person so that I could empathize with your experience. I find the notion compelling mostly because it allows Did you then create robots that become conscious, not by being quote unquote conscious, but by just learning, def fake it till they make? It is a creative. You know present a facade of consciousness and with it with the task of making their facade

very convincing to us humans and thereby it would become cautious. Have a sense is that in some way that will make them conscious if their sufficiently convincing to humans. It is this some element of that they, u r, b, find convincing. This is a much harder set of questions and doubts bend of the pool than starting with the aliens was we went from areas the cautious has. This is not the trajectory I was expecting nor you, but that let walk while we can walk awhile- and I don't think we would do a justice, so What do we mean by a consciousness? Verses, conscious, self, reflective? aaron s? What do we mean by awareness, kuala theory of mine?

there's a lot of terms that we think of a slightly different things and subjectivity? First person, ah. I dont remember exactly the quote, but our member, when reading when SAM Harris wrote the book free, will and then Dennett critique it and then there were some writing back and forth between the two. normally there on the same side, of kind of arguing for critical thinking in logic. Policies and philosophy of science against supernatural ideas and hear dennett believed There is something like freewill will he is a determinist compatible as but no consciousness and ex radical limit to vist. Sam sandwiching is consciousness, but there's no free will and that's like the most fundamental. What kinds of axiomatic senses they disagreed on, but neither of them could say was because the other one didn't understand the philosophy of science or logical fallacies and- and they can spoke pasty

then at the end, if I remember correctly, sam said something that I was quite insightful, which was to the effect of it, seems it because they won't make any progress and shared understood it seems that we simply have different intuitions about this, and what you could see was that what the words meant right at the level of symbol, grounding might be quite different one of them might have had deeply different enough life experience that what is being reference and then also different associations, of what the words mean. This is way when trying to address these things. Charles Sanders peirce said the first philosophy has to be semiotics, because if Don't get symbiotic right, we're in the importing different ideas and bad ideas right into the nature of the language that were using, and then it's very hard to do. Epistemology ontology together Saying this to say why, we're gonna get very far, as I think we would have to go very slowly in terms

defining what we mean by words and fundamental concepts and also allowing our minds to drift together for a time it should art definitions of these terms line, I think, there's some is a beauty that some people enjoy with sam, that he is quite stubborn and his definitions of terms without often clearly revealing that definition So in his mind, he can like he could sense that he can deeply, tat. What he means exactly by term like free will and consciousness in your right is very he's very specific in in fascinating ways, that not only does he think that free will is an illusion. He thinks he's able not thinks he says

he's able to just remove himself from the experience of fuel and just be like four minutes at a time hours. At a time like. really experience as if he has no free well, like he's alive. flowing down the river and given that he's very sure that consciousness is fun so. Here's a this cautious leaf, that's subjective, experiencing the floating and yet is no ability to control and make a decision. As for its efforts, as only a the decisions have all been made there, some aspect to which the terminology there perhaps is the problem, so that's a particular kind of meditative experience and the people in the vague on deck.

Tradition and some of the buddhist traditions thousands of years ago described similar experiences and somewhat similar conclusions. Some slightly different. There are other types of phenomenal experience that, ah, are the phenomenal experience of pure agency and, you know like them- the catholic theologian but evolutionary ferris, tear discharge on describes this and Rather than a creator agent, god in the beginning, there's a creative impulse for a creative process and he was would go into a type of meditation that identified as the pure essence of that kind of creative process, and I think the types of experiences we have had and then one the types of expense we ve had make a big deal to the nature of how we do symbol grounding the other thing is the types of experiences we have can't not be interpreted to our existing interpretive frame.

And most the time are interpreted. Frames are unknown, even us, some of them, and so the is tricky visit. Tricky does a tricky topic. So again, there's a bunch of directions. We could go with it, but I want to come back to what the impulse it was interesting around what is conscious and how does it relate to us as social beings? And how does it relate to the possibility of consciousness with it a eyes right keeping us on track, which is which is wonderful, you're, wonderful, hiking, partner attacks. Yes, let's go back to the end in boss of what is causing this and how does a social impulse connected consciousness is consciousness, a consequence of that social connection, a member state, a position and argue it cause. It's gonna see like it's a long hard thing to argue. We can totally do at another time if you want, I don't subscribe,

who consciousness as an emergent property of biology or neural networks. Obviously a lot of people do us either The philosophy of science orients towards that in not absolutely but largely I think of the nature of first person, the universe the first person of of kuala, as ex. Arrogance sensation, desire emotion phenomenology that, but that the felt sense not they wisp. We say emotion, we think of a neurochemical chemical pattern or a pattern, but also the physical stuff. The third person stuff His position and momentum in charge and stuff like that that is measurable, repeatable I think- of the nature of first person and third person as on dialogue

they orthogonal to each other, not reducible, to each other, their different kinds of stuff. and so I think about the evolution of third person were quite used to thinking about from subatomic particles, to atoms. Molecules to honour I think, about a similar kind of and correspond evolution in the domain of first person from the way whitehead talked about prevention or proba koala in earlier. Faced self organization. Entire orders of it in that there's correspondence, but did neither like the like the idea lists. Dewey reduce third person, the first person, which is what idealists do or not like the physical lists, or do we reduce first person to third person? Obviously bomb talked about and implicate order that was deeper than and gave rise to the exploited order of both nagel talks about something like that. I have a slightly different

sense of that, but again I'll, just kind of not argue how that occurs for a moment and say so rather than say, does consciousness emerge from I'll talk about do higher capacities of consciousness, merge relationship with so it's not first person, a category emerging from third person but increased complexity within the nature of first person in third person. Co evolving do, I think, It seems relatively likely that more advanced neural networks have deeper phenomenology more complex, where it goes just from basic sensation to emotion, to social awareness to abstract, cognition to self reflexive, abstract, cognition yeah? But I wouldn't say that's the emergence of conscious. I would say its increased complexity within the domain of first person, corresponding to increase complexity and the course and should not automatically be seen as causal? We can get it.

arguments for why that often is the case. So would I say that obviously he do sapiens. Brain is pretty unique, and in a single sapient, now has that right, even if it took sapiens evolve. In tribes based on group selection to make that brain? So the group made it now that brain is there. Now, if I take the single person with that brain out, the group and try to raise them in a box. They are still not be very interesting, even in the brain The brain does give hardware capacities that, if conditioned in relationship can have interesting things emerge should do. I think fit d. Human biology types human consciousness and types of social interaction, all co emerged and co evolved. Yes, as more side is you're. Talking about the biology. Let me comment that I spent this is what I do

what I do with my life. This is why will never accomplish anything? Is I spent much of the morning trying to catch trying to do research and humming computations? rain, performs and how many are how much energy is versus daily rsvp using gps. Arriving at of about twenty quadrillion so as to the ten to the sixteen computation source. Synaptic firing spur, second, that the brain and others about a million times faster than the yeah, but say that twenty thread stay. The yards intel cpu. The the tenth generation and then there's the calculation for the or the for the gpa and all ended up, also trying to compute that it takes ten watts the to run the brain about

and then what does that mean to the calories per day? Kilocalories! That's what to fit different average ma human brain this to fifty two three hundred dollars a day and also it end. Being a calculation. Were you doing about twenty quadrillion calculations that that are fuelled by, something like, depending on your diet, three bananas, the three bananas results in the in the computation, it's about a million times more powerful than the christiania computers from nellis. Take that and set further this someone's built in their the assumption. Is that one What the brain is doing is just computation to the the lament computations are synaptic firing, send that there's nothing other than synaptic firing, so we have to to factor oh

his name right now, there's a very famous neuroscientist at Stanford, just passed away recently, who did a lot of the pine work on legal cells, and showed that his assessment leo cells that a huge amount of the thinking not just neurons- and it opened up this entirely different field of like what the brain is and what consciousnesses you look at the work on embodied cognition and how much of what we would consider com MR feeling is happening outside of the nervous system, completely happening in endocrine process involving lots of other cells and signal communication. I he talked to media, like penrose eve, had on the show, and even though the rose? Hammer half conjectures private not right. Is there something like that? That might be the case. were actually having to look it's happening at the level of quantum computation microtubules. I'm not arguing for if those am arguing that we No, how big the unknown unknown said is well. At the very least, this has become like an infomercial for the human brain at the vote.

but wait, there's more at the very least The three bananas buys you a million time as the very last at the very least festive, and then you could have us in and then the synaptic firings were referring to strictly the electrical signals. That could be the mechanical transmission information that this chemical transmission of information there's. is all kinds of others have gone on and their memory that built in that's also tied it not to mention Learning more more about is not just about the the neurons. It's also about the immune system that somehow helping with the computation of the entirety and the entire bodies for helping with the competition to the three bananas, the goodbye new line by your lot But the on the topic of sort of are the greater degree the complexity emerging in consciousness. I think few things are as beautiful and inspiring as

taking step outside of the human brain. Just looking at systems or simple rules, create incredible complexity, not create incredible complexity emerges. So what one of the simple things to do, that with a cellular automata and the others. I don't know what it is. It may be to speak to it broken We will certainly talk about the implications of this, but. This so few things there as awe inspiring to me as knowing the rules of a system and not being able to predict what the heck looks like, and it creates incredibly beauty complexity that one soon down on looks like theirs true organisms doing things that are might shot the operator scale much higher then the

underlying mechanism so sell your tumblr that cells that are born and die wanna die in the only know about each other's neighbours and their simple, who's that govern the interaction of birth and death in create at scale, organisms that look like they take up hundreds or thousands of cells, and they're moving and moving around at communicating their sending signals to each other, and you forget at moment their time before you remember That the simple rules on cells is all they took to create that it's it's sad in that we can come up with a simple description of that system generalise. The behaviour of the large organisms

can only come up. We can only hope to come up with the thing the fundamental physics add or the fundamental rules of that system. I suppose it's sad that we can predict everything no but the mathematics of those systems, it seems like we can't really a nice way, like economics, tries to do to predict how this holding one wrong, but his beautiful, because how simple it is underneath it either. So what do you make? of via the emergence of complexity, from simple rules, what the hell's that about yet. But we can see that something like flocking behavior. The murmuring can can be computer code it's not a very hard set of rules to be able to see some of those really amazing types of complexity and the whole field of complex Science and some of the sub disciplines like stigma. Gr are studying how, following fairly simple risk, Answers to a pheromone signal do ant. Colony is due. This amazing thing were look what what you might

I busy organizational computation capacity of the colony is so profound rail. tip to each individual answers. Doing I am not anywhere near as well versed, and the cutting edge of so your comments. I would like, unfortunately, I in terms of topics that I would like to get, We haven't lake, it is more from a new kind of science. I have only skimmed and reviews refused Evan, not read the whole thing or his newer work sense. But his idea of the four basic kind of categories- emerging phenomena that can come from, say, automaton, that one of them is kind of interesting and looks a lot like complexity, rather than just chaos or homogeneity or self determination or whatever. I think this is very interesting. It not instantly make me think that biology is up

sitting on a similarly small set of rules and or that human consciousness, as I'm I'm not That reductionist lee oriented- and so if you look at say santa fe answer to one of the co founder, Stuart kaufman, his work. He should you should really get him on your show. So A lot of the questions that you like one of kaufman's in more recent books after investigations in some of the real fundamental stuff, was called reinventing the sacred and it had to do with some of these exact questions in kind of non reductionist approach. But that is not just silly hippy ism and he was very interested in highly non systems where you couldn't take a lot behaviour of our small period of time and predict what the behaviour of subsets over a longer period of time adieu and then going further Someone who spent some time it sent a fancy to an unkind of made a whole new fee that you should have on Dave Snowden who something

Call the father of anthrax complexity or what is the complexity unique to humans? say something to the effect of that modeling humans, as termites really doesn't cut it like we. We we don't respond exactly identical to these same pheromone stimulus using stigma? D like it works for flows of traffic and some very simple human behaviors, but it really doesn't work for trying to make sense of the system chapel and picasso in general activity, creation and stuff like that and its because the the termites are not doing abstraction forecasting deep into the future and making choices now, based on forecasts of the future, not just adaptive signals in the moment and evolutionary code from history. That's really different right, like making choices now that can factor deep modeling of the future and with whom, hence our uniqueness. One to the next in terms of response to similar stimuli is much higher than it is for the termite one of them

Seeing things there is that their uniqueness is extremely low. There, basically fungible within a class right this different classes, both in a classroom. can we fungible and their system uses that very high numbers and lots of loss right where you death and our might feel so I don't know shit it wishes to see yourself about our uniqueness. Perhaps it doesn't it just is there some? I wish. This emerges just, creates different higher and higher was were every at every layer. Each organism feels unique. Is that possible while giving belonging bonus. Different scales now think uniqueness is evolving. I think that hydrogen atoms are more similar to each other. Then cells of the same type I think that sells or more similar to each other humans are, that highly case elected species are more unique than are selected,

so their different evolutionary processes, the are selected species? We have a whole lot of death and very high birth rates are not looking for as much in division. quality within or individual possible x action to cover the evolutionary search base within an individual you're, looking at it more in terms of numbers game, so yeah say it is probably more difference between one orca and the next than there is between one cape of buffalo and the next. Given that it will be interesting to get your thoughts about tom mimetic theory were were image hitting each other in the car Does this idea uniqueness? How much truth is there to that? How compelling is this world view to you. Of gerardi in mimetic. of desire where maybe you can explain it from your respective but

seems like imitating, each other's the fundamental property of the behaviour of human civilization. what imitation is not unique to humans monkeys imitate, so A certain amount of learning through observing is not unique to humans. Human. do more of it tat she can of worth speaking to this for a moment monkeys can learn new papers new, We ve seen teaching an ape language and in the ape teach another apes sign language to that, pending mummies, strange kind of learning through imitation and that needs to happen if they need to learn or develop capacities that are not just quoted by their genetics right and so within the same genome, their learning, new things based on the environment and so, on some one else learn something first, and so, let's pick it up,

how much a creature is the result of just its genetic programming and how much it's learning is a very interesting question and I think this a place where humans really show up radically different than everything else, and can see it in the in the neo How long were basically fetal that a day sister ancestors to us. If we look at a chip, attempt can hold on to smothers fur. While she moves round day one and obviously we see horses up and walking within twenty minutes the fact that it takes a human a year to be walk. And it takes horse twenty minutes. You say how many multiples of twenty minutes go into a year, like that's a long period of helplessness that I wouldn't work for horse right, like they owe or anything else. And and not only can we not hold onto mom in the first days, it's three months we can move our head maliciously so cycle

Why are we embryonic for so long? Basically that it's like, like it's still fetal on the outside, had to be his. Couldn't keep growing inside, naturally ever get out with big heads and narrower hips from going up right, so here's a place there's a co evolution of the pattern of humans. Specifically here, are our neoteny and but that pretends to learning. Where They are being too making an environment modifying creatures, which is because we have it traction to make tools, we change. Environments, more than other creatures change their environments them next. most environment modifying creature to us is like a beaver and then you were an ally, a you fly into allay acts and you look at the just orthogonal grid going on forever. all directions and We have recently come into the anthropocentric where the surface of the earth is changing, morphine human activity than geological activity and then bieber's you like, ok,

We're really in a class of our own industry, led of modifying here, so soon ass, we started to making. We were to change our environments. Much more radical. The conclusion that a cold place prank is really important, because we actually went and became a picks, predators and every environment we function like apex, predators, polar bear can't leave the arctic right in the. The lion, can't leave the savanna and an orca can't leave the ocean, and we went, became apex, predators and all those environments because of our tool creation capacity. We could become better predators in them, adapted to the environment or at least with our tools adapted to the environment. So in every aspect towards any organism in any environment were incredibly good. It becoming a pact predators. Yes, and nothing else can do that kind of thing there. There is no other apex, predator,

that. Could the other apex predator is only getting better it being a predator through evolutionary process that super slow and that super slow process creates co selective process with their environment. So, as the printer becomes a tiny bit faster, it it's more of the slow pray, the genes of the fast pray and breed and pray becomes faster, and so there's this kind of balancing we in because of our two making the increased our predatory capacity faster than anything else could increase its resilience to it as well we start outstripping the environment and extinct species following stone tools and going and becoming apex predator everywhere? This way we can't keep applying apex predator series cause we're not an apex predator, wherein an apex predator, but with something much more than that, and like just for an example that the top a spread around the world and orca in orca, can eat one fish at a time like one tuna and it'll miss most of the time or once you and we can put em a long driftnet out on a single boat and pull up in it, your school of them right, weaken the deeply

the entire oceans of them. That's not an orca rate like this, not nay, picks predator and that's not even in reading that we can then genetically engineered different creatures. We can extinct, species weaken devastate holy ghost, We can make built worlds that have no natural things that are just human built world. We can build new types of natural creature, synthetic life, so we It's more like little gods than we are like apex predators now, but we're still behaving as apex, predators and little gods behave as apex predators costs as a problem can, of course, to my assessment, the world. So what does it mean? to be a predator. So a predator is somebody that actively can mine the resources from place so for this a viable, Is it also just purely like higher level objectives of violence in what is, can predators be printed, distorts the same in each other terms, the same species We are using our predator have generally, which then connects the conflict,

and military conflict violent conflict in the space of the human species. Obviously we can say that plants are mining the resources of their environment. In a particular way, using photosynthesis to be able to pull minerals out of the soil and nitrogen and carbon out of the air and like that- and we can the herbivores are being well to mine and concentrate that. So I wouldn't say: mining the environment is unique to predator predator Is it. Via generally being defined as mining other animals ray? We don't consider urban force, predators, baton, animal which requires some type of violence capacity, because animals move plants, don't move so require some capacity to I overtake something that can move and try to get away. I will go back to the ga thing, then we'll come back here.

Why are we not in this way? Are we embryonic for so long? Because are we did we? Just move from the savanna to the arctic, and we need to learn new stuff. If we can genetic Programmed we would not be able to do that. Are we and spears, or are we fishing or are we running in india, we'll supply chain. Are we texting? What is the adaptive behaviour? Whore today in the wild and horses ten thousand years ago or doing pretty much the same stuff and so, since we make tools and we evolve art rules and then change our environment so quickly and other animals are largely the result of their environment, but we're environment modifying so rapidly. We need to come without too much cramming, so we can learn the environment wherein learn the language right, witches me very important learned. The tool making Linda

and so we have a very long period of relative helplessness of helplessness, because we aren't coded how to behave yet because we're imprinting lot of software on how to behave. That is useful to that particular time arm amicus is not is not unique to humans, but the total amount of it is a really unique and this is also where the uniqueness can go up writers. because we are less just the result of the genetics, and that means the kind of learning through his. they got coded in genetics and more the result of almost like are high. where selected for software, rightly if evolution is kind of doing these things as where selection of problems of computer metaphors biology but use this one here that we have not had hardware changes since the beginning of sapiens, but world is really really different and that's all changes and software rate changes in on the same fundamental genetic substrate. What we're doing with the

brains and minds, and bodies and social groups, and like that, and so now specifically was looking at when we watch other we'll talking. So we learn language you and I would have a hard time learning mandarin today or take a lot of work. We'd be learning how to conjugate verbs and stuff, but a baby learns it instantly without anyone even really trying to teach it. Just remember these sorts of two powerful thing there are obviously more neural plastic than we are when they're doing that in all their attentions allocated, but there also learning how to move their bodies and their learning all kinds of stuff Through my niece S, one of the things that jarred says is there also learning what to want and they learn what to want, they learn desire by watching what other people want and so intrinsic to. As people in the point what other people want and if we can't have, we other people have without taking it away from them than that becomes a source of conflict. So

the mississippi desire as the fundamental generator of conflict and then the conflict energy within a group of people will build over time. This is a very, very good, interpretation of the theory. Can you just pause on that for me but who now familiar and for me who hasn't lucy familiar, but I haven't internalized, but every time I think about is the very compelling view of the world where there is true or not is quite it's like when you take everything freud says, is true. The very interesting way to think about the world. In the same way, thinking, about the mimetic there desire that everything we want Imitation of other peoples want we don't have any original wants, were constantly. Maintaining others, and so in not just others, but others were exposed.

So there is he's like little local pockets. How redefine local of people like image? in each other and the one that super empowering because then you can pick one group. You can join like what. What do you want to imitate it's, it's a it's! The old like a you know, whoever your friends are, that's what your life is going to be like that's really powerful amused. I think there were some unoriginal, but it's also live, rating in that, if this holds true, they can choose our life by choosing the people hang out with so again, thoughts that are very compelling, it seemed like they're, more absolute than they actually are, and up also being dangerous, whom we, while miasm I'm gonna disk here where I think we need to amend this particular theory, but specifically, You said something that everyone whose p

attention noses true experiential ii, which is who you're around a factory you become and as as libertarian and self determine and sovereign as we'd like to be everybody think knows that if you got put in maximum security, prison aspects of your personality would have. two adapter, you wouldn't thrive. There right you'd become different if you're, if, if you up and our four versus finland. You would be different with your same genetics like just did no real question about that. that even today, if you hang out in a place with ultra honours as your roommates or all people who are your roommates, the statistical likelihood of what happens. You're fitness is pretty clear right, like the behavioral science of this pretty clear, so the whole saying we're the average of the five people we spend the most time around I think the more self reflective someone is no more time they spend by themselves in self reflection, the less this is true, but it still true so one of the big

things someone can do too come more self determined is be self determined about the environment so to put themselves in because to do read that there is some self determination in some determination by the environment, dont fighting, an environment that is predisposing. You and bad directions tried to put in an environment that is predisposing the things that you want. in turn: try to affect the environment and ways of predispose, positive things for those round you or perhaps also there is probably interesting with play with this. He could probably put yourself like form, connections that have this. Perfect tension in all directions to a year actually free to decide what the heck you want, because the set of wants within year, sir of interactions is so conflicting. They you're free to choose, whichever one so there's enough tens, as opposed to everybody a line like a flock birds. Yeah, you mean you definitely want that, all of the dialectics would be balanced

so, if you have, one who is extremely oriented to self empowerment and someone who is extremely oriented to kind of empathy compassion, both the dialectic of it is better than either of them. On their own, if you have both inhabiting being inhabited better than you by the same person spinning time around their personal, probably do well for you. I think the thing you just mentioned a super important when it comes to cognitive schools, which is, I think, one of the fastest things people can do to improve their learning and they're, not just cognitive learning, but their meaning full problem. Solving communication and civic capacity capacity to participate as a citizen with other people and making the world better is to be seen. Speaking dialectical synthesis all the time- and in the hague sense. If you have a thesis, you have an anti thesis so may

we have libertarianism on one side and marxist kind of communism on the other side, and one is arguing that The individual is the unit of choice, and so we want to increase the freedom and support individual choice because, as they make more agenda choices, it'll british, better hole for everybody, the others saying, while the individuals were conditioned by their environment, who would choose to be born into Dar, for rather than finland, so We actually need to collectively. Make environments that our good, because at the environment, conditions individuals, so you have a thesis in an anti faces and then he goes ideas. You have a synthesis which is a kind of higher order. Truth. It understands how those relate in a way that neither of them do enjoy it is actually the higher order of complexity. So the first part would be they steal man. Each of these can, I argue, each one. Well enough that the proponents of intellect totally you got that and not just are you ready?

quickly, but can I inhabit where I can try to see and feel the world the way someone seeing infant well that way would because once I do, then I d want to screw those people because there's truth in it right and I'm not gonna go back to war with him. I'm going go to finding solutions. It could actually work at a higher order if I don't go to higher order than theirs war and but then the higher order thing would be well, it seems like the individual does affect the common. in the collective and other people. It also seems like that, collective conditions. Individuals at least statistically- and I can cherry pick out the one guy, who got out of the ghetto and pulled uh by his bootstraps, but I can also say statistically that most people born into the ghetto show up differently than most people born into the hamptons and so unless you want to argue that and have you take your time from the hamptons and put them in the ghetto then like come on, be realistic about this thing. So how do we make We don't want social systems that make weak dependent Individuals right over the welfare

you meant, but we also don't. We no social system that supports individuals to do better. We were We don't want individuals where there's self expression and agency foxy environment and everybody else and employs slave labour and whatever so can we may get to where individual rules are create. In holes that are better for conditioning other individuals. Can we make it where we have holes that are conditioning increased agency and sovereignty right? That would be the synthesis, so the thing that I'm coming to here as if people have. That is a frame, and sometimes it's not just thesis nancy's. He says it's like eight different views. Re can I steal men each view this is not just. Can I take the perspective, but am ice give them in my actively trying to inhabit other people's perspective. Then, can I read try to essential lies at and argue that the best points of both the scent, Making about reality and the values why these very

actually matter, then just like I want to seek those perspectives then I want to seek. Is there a higher order said understandings that could fulfil the values of an synthesize, the sense making a ball of them simultaneously. Maybe I won't get it, but I want to be seeking it and I wanna be seeking progressively better ones. So this is perspective seeking driving perspective. Take. and then seeking synthesis. I think that that one cognitive disposition might be the most helpful thing Would you put a title dialectic synthesis on that process could, as seems to be such a part like this rigorous empathy, but I guess I just empathy its empathy. with rigour like you really want to understand it and in body different while these and then tried to find a high order census.

So I remember last night you told me when we first met, you said that you- somebody's eyes, and he felt that you had suffered in some ways that they had somewhere it and she could trust him shared pathos It creates a certain sense of kind of shared, bonding ensured intimacy. So empathy is actually feel the suffering of somebody else and feeling that the depth of their sense and so I don't wanna fuck them anymore, and I hurt them. I don't want to behave in a way. I don't want my proposition to go through they go and inhabit. The perspective of the other people say feel that's really gonna ask them up ray and so the rigorous empathy, its differently just compassion, which is I generally care like. I have a generally care? But I dont know what it's like to be them. I can never know what it's like to be them perfectly in that visit, humility you have to have, which is my most rigorous attempt, is still not it My most rigorous attempt mine to know what it's like to be a woman is still not it I've. No,

in that, if I was actually a woman would be different than my best gases have no question. If I was actually black, it's be different than my best guess so there's a humility, and that which keeps me listening cause. I dont think that I know fully, but I want to, and I'm gonna keep trying better too and then I want your cross them, and then I want to say: is there a way we can forward together and not have to be more? It has to be something that could meet values that everyone holds. That could reconcile the partial sense making that everyone holds and they could offer forward. That is more agreeable, then the partial perspectives at war with each other, but the system were you succeeded the sympathy with humility them? well you're carrying the burden of their of other people's pain, essentially nurse, goes back to the question of. Do I see us as one being? seven point, eight billion. I think them.

If I'm overwhelmed with my own pain? I can't empathize that much because I don't have the bandwidth, they don't have the capacity I don't feel like. I can do something about a particular problem in the world. It's hard to feel it cause it's just you devastating, and tools People go numb and even go nihilistic because they just don't feel the agency so should become more empowered as an individual and more sense of agency. I also become more empowered to be more empathetic for others and be more connected to that shared burden and want to be able to make choices on behalf of an in an in fit of so this way of living. Seems like a way of living. There would solve a lot of problems that society from us, your time perspective. Sir, bunch of little like little agents behaving in this way. My intuition to be interesting complexities, their merge, burma intuition, is you create a society that very different

recognizably better than that we have today much like await hold that question questions. I want max? This brings us back to draw which we didn't answer the conflict. Terry, as cares about how to get past the conflict theory. Yes, you know the robert frost poem about the two paths. He never had time to turn back to you that we're going to have to do that quite a lot. We're going to be living there, over and over again the usa or how how to was returned back of the rest of the argument. Goes you learn to want one. Other people want therefore fundamental conflict based in our desire, because we want the thing somebody else has and then people are concerned. therein conflict over trying to get the same stuff power step attention physical stuff, a mate whatever it is, and then that we learn the conflict by watching entered in the conflict becomes medics. At the end, you know we become on the details,

Then, the inside of the israeli side of the communist capitalist side of the left, or right politically or whatever it is, and until eventually conflict urging the system builds up so much that some of violence, is needed to get the bad guy, whoever it is that we're gonna blame and in andorra talks about escape scapegoating was kind of a mechanism to minimum. The amount of violence, its blame, let's blame at a set, a scale as being more relevant than they really were, but if we all believe it than we can all can come down with a conflict energy guerrillas, in concept by the way you Ain'T- you got a beautifully summarize it, but the idea that this a scapegoat there's a this kind of thing naturally still conflict, and then they find the other side group. Does the other that's either real artificial as the cause of the conflict artificial, because the cause of the conflict and draw is the means of desire itself, and how do we attack that? How do we attacked at its heart desire? So this now gets to something more like buddha said rate, which was desires. The cause of suffering

gerard imbued with kind of agree in this way, so as a but that's that explains, we again is a compelling description of human history that we do tempting come up with the other, and a kind of I just. I just had such a funny experience with someone critic in short, the other day in such a elegant and one simple way: it's her friend whose them. grub aboriginal, australian, The scholar of aboriginal social technologies he's like and you're just made shut up about how tribes work like we could come from a try? We got tens of thousands of years and we didn't increasing conflict and then scapegoat and kill. Someone we'd have little bit account liked, and then we would dance and then every baby, fine, the grid

During the campaign everyone were like can physically get the energy out, we'd, look at each other's eyes with a positive bonding and they were fine and nobody. Nobody no scapegoats, and I think that's well the Joe rogan theory of desire, which is he's like all all human problems, have to do with the fact that you don't do enough hard shit in your day, so maybe maybe desert because he says I good doing exercising running about treadmill gets all the demons out. Maybe just dancing gets all the demons up, so this is way We have to be careful and taking an idea that seems to x mandatory and then taking it as a given and then saying well now that we're stuck with the fact that conflict as inexorable, because you because mimetic desire and therefore how do we deal with the inexorable or of the conflict and how to supplement violence will know. The whole thing may be actually gibberish, meaning its the true in certain conditions and other conditions. It's not true, so the deeper question is under which conditions is that true? Under which conditions? Is it not true? What are those other conditions make possible and look like and in general,

stay with really compelling models of reality, because there's something about about our brains, that these models become sticky and can even think outside of them so it's not that we stay away from them. It's that we know that the model of reality is never reality. That's the key thing humility again. It goes back to just having the humility. They don't have a perfect model of reality, there's an them. The model of reality could never be reality. The process of modelling is inherently information, reduction and I can never show that the unknown unknown said has been factored spected sally to cellular automata. You can't you can't put the a jeanne, you back and bottle. I go when you realise its, unfortunately, sadly impossible to learn. To create a model of celery atomic, even if you know the basic rules that predict

to even any degree of accuracy what how that system will evolve, he's fast, the sire J, I think about quite a lot very annoying. Wolfram alpha Rule thirty, like a you should be able to predict it. It's so simple, but you can predict. What's going to be the like, there's a bizarre problem, he defines they try to predict some aspect of the middle middle column of the system. Just anything about it. What's gonna happen vision, you can't you can't itself then we can make sense of this world in a row. In reality in a different way. It's always like in the striving it were always striving. I dont think that sucks that it serves as a feature a bug. Well, that's assuming a designer, I would say I dont think its

I think it's not only beautiful but may be necessary for beauty mess zira senior year Good europeans should clean up your room. See you like the rooms messy. It is essential for the four beauty, but not if I might add, is it ok. I take I have no idea it was intended this way, and so I'm just interpreting it away. I like the committee meant about having no false idols me. The way I interpret that's it is meaningful. Is that rate reality sacred? I have a reverence for reality, but I know my best. Understanding of it is never complete. Oh my best model of it is a model where I tried to make some kind of predictive copy

city, by reducing the complexity of it to a set of stuff that I could observe and then a subset of that stuff. That I thought was the causal dynamics and in some set of you, no mechanisms that are involved and what we find is that can be super beautiful, like newtonian gravity- can help us do ballistic as in all kinds of super useful stuff, and then we get to the place where it doesn't explain what's happening. Cosmo logical scale, loretta scale and at each time what were finding is. Ah, we excluded seven, it also doesn't explained: the reconciliation of gravity with quantum mechanics and the other kind of fundamental laws and so model. can be useful, but there never true with a capital t, meaning there never an actual real full than ever a complete described. What's happening in real systems. It can be a complete description of what's happening in an artificial system that was the result of applying a model. to the model of a circuit board and the circuit boards the same thing, but our

that the model of a cell in the cellar not the same thing, and I would This is key to what we call complexity versus the key located, which is a distinction dave Snowden made well in the ending the difference between simple complicated, complex and chaotic systems, but one of the defining complex systems. Is it no matter how you model the complex system? It will still have some emergent behaviour, not predicted by the model. guinea you elaborate on the complex threats to the complicated complicated mean We can fully exploit kate the face of all this is that it can do we can program it. all human not are, for the most part, human Built things are complicated, they dont self organized, they don't self repair, and not self evolving, and we can make a blueprint for them. Where's I for human systems for argument knowledge is technology society. S also nodded are basically the application of models, rape, and

Engineering is kind of applied science science as the modeling process. and but with, but humans are complex, complex stuff with biological types, in sociological type stuff. It more has generator functions and even though can't be fully exploited than it has or are explication can't prove that it has closure of what would be in the unknown unknown set where we keep finding like. Oh it's just the genome, oh will now said, genome in the epic genome and then a recursive change on the epic juno, because the proteome than theirs might conrad dna and the virus is affected and thought great says like we get over excited when we think we found the thing saw on facebook. You know how you can list your relationship as complicated. It should actually say it's as complex as the more accurate description. He was a softer, meaning is really interesting idea. You talk about quite a bit forthwith. what is a softer me system and I think you have it.

Correct me if I'm wrong that. Human civilization, as it currently is, as a self terminating system will. Allow You have the intuition, combined with definition of such remaining means. Okay. So if we look at, Human societies historically civilizations, It's not that hard to realise that most of the major civilizations and empires of the past on exist anymore, so they had a lifecycle. They died for some reason. Tat. We don't I'll have the earliest. An empire or incur my or aztec or any of those rain, and so they they terminated. Sometimes it seems like they were terminate from the outside and more sometimes seems like they self terminate. When we look at easter island, it was a self termination. So, Let's go ahead and take an island situation. If I an island and we're

consuming the resources on that island faster than the resources can replicate themselves and is a finite space there. That system is gonna self this can be able to keep doing that thing because you'll get to a place of there's no resources left then you get so now. if I'm utilizing the resources faster than they can replicate or fast, and they can replenish actually growing our population, the process, I'm even increasing the rate of the utilization of resources. I might get an extra. And shall curve and then had a wall and then just collapse exponential curve round then do an s curve or some other kind of thing. So self terminating system is any system. It depends upon the substrate system that is debasing its own substrate. That is debasing what it depends upon your right. Die if you look at empires, they rise and fall throughout human history, but but not this time, bro were

What business go going to last forever and like that idea, I think that if we don't understand why all the previous ones failed, we can't ensure that, and so I think it's important understand it well so that we can have them be a desire outcome with somewhat decent probability so where its serve in terms of human resources and island work a bunch you keep coming up, especially when the, horizon. There is a termination point. We keep coming up with clever way. Of avoiding disaster of avoid. In collapse of constructing there were technological innovation is where growth comes in, coming up with different ways to improve productivity and the way society function such that we consume less resources, are get a lot more from the resources we have so there's some sense in which there is

Human ingenuity is a source for optimism about the future of this particular system that that may not be soft remaining if it If there's more innovation than there is consumption, so over consumption of resources. Just one waving himself terminate we're just gonna start in here, but there our reasons for A man pessimism then they're both worth understanding in this failure modes on understanding, either without the other. mentioned previously. There is what I would How naive techno optimism naive, techno capital optimism that says it's just has been getting better and better and we wouldn't wanna live in the dark ages and tech has done all this awesome stuff and- and we know the proponents of the, models and this

If it's gonna get kind of keep getting better, of course, our problems, but human ingenuity rises to its supply and demand will solve the problems. Whatever would you put ray Kurzweil net? or in that bucket, is there some space? If we bear in mind or naive. Optimism is truly naive to where you are then she just haven't optimism. This blind any kind of realities of the wheat technology progresses. I think that anyone who thinks about it. and writes about? It is perfectly naive, gotcha, but there may by time, But I like ideal there there, be a bias in the nature of the assessment I also say this kind of native techno pessimism, and There are some critics of technology for me

You read the unabomber manifesto on why technology can't not result in our self termination, so we have to take it out before it gets any further. But also if you read a lot of the extra community bostra men. Friends like are little number of existential risks and the total probability of them is going up. and so I think that there are, we have to hold together we're on positive possibilities and our risk possibilities are both increasing and then say for the positive possibilities to be realized long term. All of the catastrophic risks have to not happen. Any of the catastrophic risks happening is enough to keep that positive outcome. Going, so how do we ensure that none of them have it? If we want to say, let's have a civilization that doesnt collapse so again, clubs theory towards looking at books like gum, the collapse of complex societies by Joseph

under the desert analysis of that many The societies fell for it for internal institutional d. a civilization of the key reasons: boatyard. In simulation? Simulacra looks at a very different way of looking at how institutional decay in the collective intelligence of a system happens, and it becomes kind of more internally parasitic on itself. I am obviously You're diamond made up more popular book collapse and Mentioning the antique ethereum mechanism has been getting. engine in the news lately, with like two thousand year old clock, right, liking, metal gears and. Does that mean we lost like fifteen hundred years of technological progress and from a society is relatively technologically advanced. So what I'm interested in here is being able to say, oh cable. Why the previous societies fail, came

I understand that abstractly enough, that we can make civilization a model that isn't just and solve one type of failure, but solve the underlying things that generate to failures as a whole. Some underline generator functions for patterns that would make assist himself terminating Can we solve those and have that be the kernel of a new civilization, a model that is not self terminating and we then be able to actually look at the categories of extra were aware of and see that we actually have resilience in the presence of those not just resilience but anti fragility, and I would say, for the optimism to be grounded It has to actually be able to understand the risks space well and have adequate solutions for it. So can we try to begin to see basic intuitions about the underlying sources of catastrophic failures

the system and over consumption has built in to self to rating systems, to both over consumption, which is like the slow death. And then then, there the fast death of nuclear war and all those kinds of things in age I buy attack Veneering, nanotechnology? None of my fear, enamel botz, look narrow botz in my favour, because it sounds so cool to me: that I could just no. That would be one of the scientists, though, before steam ahead in building them without sufficiently thinking about the negative consequences. I would definitely be I'll, be pot gas thing all about the negative consequences, but but what I but go back home a b, I just in my heart. No, the amount of excitement is a dumb descendant of eight no offense to eight susie. I wanna bet backtrack on my previous comments about

ah negative comments about apes. that I should have that sense of excitement that would result in problems society. A lot of things said, but woods can we start to pull a thread because you've also provided kind of a beautiful general approach to this, which is this dialectic, synthesis or just Rigorous empathy, whatever whatever word wanna put to it, that seems to be from the individual perspective, is one way to sort of live in the world as we try to figure out how to construct nonce after making systems? So what? What are some underlying sources yet? First have to say I am I actually really respect drexler for emphasising grey, blue and engines of creation back in the day to make.

the world was paying adequate attention to the risks of the the nanotech and as someone who was right at the cutting edge of what could be theirs, definitely game theoretic advantage to those who focus on the opportunities and dont focus on the risks or pretend they aren't risks because they get to market. and then they external, as all of the costs, through limited liability or whatever it is to the commons or whatever happened to have it, other people are going to have to solve those. But now they have the power and capital associated the person who looked at the risks and tried to do better design and go slower and is probably the. It can move into positions of as much power influence as quickly. So this one of the issues we have to deal with is some of the the bad game theory.

dispositions in the system relative to its own stability and the key aspect to that sorry to interrupt as the externalities generated. Yes, what flavors of catastrophic risk are we talking about here? Your favorite flavour, terrifies reminders. Coconut always seems like organised crime. Also ask him aside, So what do you must worry about it as a catastrophic risk that will help us kind of make concrete the discussion we are having about how to fix this whole thing. Yet I think it's worth taking a historical perspective. Briefly, to just can orient, have run to it. We don't have to go all the way to the aliens you've seen all of civilization, but to just recognise that fraud history, as far as we are aware, there were ex essential, two civilizations and they happened,

I'd like there were civilizations that were killed in war, that tribes were killed and travel. fair whatever, so people faced excess insurers. The group is identified with it just as were local phenomena right they will. It wasn't a full. Global phenomena show an empire could fall and surrounding empires didn't fall. Maybe they came in filled the space, the first time, that we were able to think about cattle traffic risk, not from like a solar flare or something that we couldn't control, but from something that humans would actually create at a global level was world war two in the bomb, because it is the first time that we had tech big enough that could actually mess up everything the global level that could mess up habitability. We just went powerful enough to do that before it's, not that we do behave in ways that would have done it. We just he only behaved in those ways at scale we could effect and so it's important to get that. There's the entire world before world were too, where we don't

the ability to make a non habitable biosphere non habitable. For us. In this world were too and the beginning of a completely new phase, where global human induced catastrophic risk is now a real thing. and that, with such a big deal that change the entire world and really fundamental way, which is when you steady history to making how big a percentage of history is studying war right in the history of where's that european history, whenever in its general, and wars and empire expansionism and to them major empires near each other? Never have really long periods of time where they weren't engaged in war or preparation for or something like that was humans. Don't have a good precedent in the post tribal phase, this civilization being able to solve conflict without work for very long worldwide. To is the first time where

We could have a war that no one could win and show the superpowers couldn't find again. They couldn't do a real kinetic or they could do diplomatic work. Reason: cold war type staff and they can fight proxy wars or other countries. It didn't have the big weapons and so chile, assured destruction and like coming out of world war. Two we she realised that nation states couldn't prevent world war annually needed a new types of supervening government. In addition to nation states, which was the whole bretton woods world, do you know nations the world bank theme? I am ass. The globalization kite trade type agreements mutually assured destruction that was How do we have some coordination beyond just nation states between them, since we have to stop war between at least the superpowers and is pretty successful, given that we ve like seventy five years of no superpower superpower work, we ve had lots of proxy worse. During that time, we had in a cold war,

and I would say, we're in a new face now, where the breton the solution is basically over almost over. He described the breathless solution, yeah, so the bretton woods the series of agreements fur how? the nations would be able to engage with each other in a solution other than war. Was these ideas It is an intergovernmental organisations and was the aid of globalization. Since we have global effects, we needed to be learnt thing about things globally. where we had trade relationships with each other, where it would not be profitable to war each other be more profitable to actually be able to trade with each other shore. Own self interest was going to die. I've are non more interest in So this started to look like, and obviously this this could Have happened,

earlier either, because industrialization haven't gotten far enough to be able to do massive global industrial supply chains and ships stuff around in a quickly. But mentioning earlier. Almost all the electronics that we use today, just basic cheap stuff for us, is made on six continents, maiden these countries are no single country in the world could actually make many of the things that we have learned from the raw materials direction to the plastics and paul tourism, etc. and so the I dear that we made a world that could do that kind of trade, create massive gdp growth. We can all work together to be able to my natural resources and grow stuff with rapid gdp growth. There is the idea that everybody could keep having more without having to take each other stuff, and so that that was part of kind of the bretton woods postcode or to model the other that would be so economically interdependent blown each other up, would never make sense that worked for a while. Now it also brought us

up into planetary boundaries faster. The noble use of resource and turning those resources into pollution on the other side of the supply chain, so obviously that faster gdp. Growth meant the over. Fishing of the oceans and the cutting down of the trees and the climate change in the mining, toxic mining tailings going into the water in the mountain, top removal, mining and all those types of things says the oil consumption side of the of the risk that we're talk him up and the answer of. Let's do positive gdp is the answer: Thirdly, an exponentially obvious: accelerated the planetary boundaries side and that started to be that start about. For a long time. It has started to be modeled with the club of rome and limits of growth and it but it is very obvious to save you have a linear materials economy where you take stuff out of the earth faster, whether its fisher tree.

Or or or you take or oil You take it out of the earth faster than it can replenish itself, and you turn it to trash after using it for a short period of time, but the trash the environment faster than it can process itself in this toxicity associated with both sides of this, you can't run an X. Essentially growing linear materials economy on a finite planet forever. It's not a hard thing to figure out and it has to be exponential. if there is an explanation, the monetary supply because of interest and then fraction reserve banking and to then be able to keep up with the growing monetary supply. You have to have growth of goods and services, and so that's that kind of thing that has happened But you also see that when you get these supply chains that are so interconnected across the world, you get increase. Fragility cause a collapse or problems One area then affects the whole world in a much bigger areas supposed to the issues being local right, so we got to see with cove iD and issue that started in one part of china, affecting the whole world, show

who, much more rapidly than would have happened before bretton woods, right before international travel supply chains. That whole kind of thing and with bunch of second and third order effects. It people wouldn't predicted. Okay, we have to stop certain kinds of travel because a viral contaminants, but that countries doing agriculture, depend upon fertilizer. They dont produce that is shipped into them in depend upon pesticides it on producer. We got both crop failures, crops being eaten by locusts in scale in northern africa and IRAN, and things like that, because they couldn't get the supplies of stuff into. Then you get massive starvation or future kind of hunger issues because of supply chain shut downs. So you get this in These fragility, jellybean cascade dynamics or a small problem can end up leading to cascade effects and also we went from two superpowers with one catastrophe. Weapon to now

That same catastrophe weapon is there's more countries that have an inner nine countries habit, and there's a lot more types of catastrophe, weapons which we now have to test. hey weapons with whether nice drones it can hit infrastructure. targets with bio, with that every new type of tech has created an arms race. So we not with the u n or the other kind of inter governmental organisations, we haven't been able to really do nuclear proliferation. We ve actually more countries get nukes and keep getting faster, nukes the race to hypersonic and things like that. and every new type of technology that has emerged is created mantras and so can't do mutually assured destruction with multiple agent, so you can with two agents to agents that much easier to create a stable nash equilibrium, that's forced, but the ability to modern,

if these guys shoot, who do I shoot, I shoot 'em? Do I shoot everybody? Do I and you get a three body problem? You get a very complex type of thing. When you have multiple ages and multiple different types of catastrophe, weapons, including ones that can be much more easily produced. An ex neutral, really hard to produce, is only reining in a few areas. Ream enrichment is hard the aims are hard, but whether nice drones smart targets So hard, this lot of other things were basically the scale at being able to manufacture them is going way way down to where even non state actors can have them, and so, when we talk about ex exponential tech and the decentralization of exponential tack what that means, this decentralized catastrophe weapon capacity and especially in a world of, increasing numbers of people feeling disenfranchised frantic whatever for different reasons. So I would say where the bretton woods world doesn't prepare us to be able to deal with lots of different agents having lots

Different types of catastrophe weapons you can't put mutual destruction on where you can't keep doing growth is cereals, economy, in the same way because of hitting planetary boundaries and where the fragility dynamics, are actually now their own source of catastrophic risk. So network like there was all the world until world were, and unload were too is just from a from a civilization timescale. Point of view is just a second ago seemed a long time is really not. We get a short period of relative peace at the, of superpowers while building up the military capacity for much much much worse, the entire time and then now we're at this new phase, where the things that allowed us to make it through the nuclear power are not the same systems that will let us make it through the next stage. So what is this next post woods, how? How do we become safe vessels, safe stewards

of many different types of exponential technology is a key question when we're thinking about picturesque look, so And I'd like to try to answer the house if you thought a few ways, but first down the mutually assured destruction. Do you give credit to the idea of, super superpowers not blowing each other up a nuclear weapons to the simple game, theoretic model, mutually assured destruction or something you ve said previously This idea of inverse correlation, which I tend to believe between the love. You were talking about tack, but I think it's maybe broadly true the inverse correlation between competence and propensity for destruction. So the better. The

The bigger your weapons, not because you're, afraid of mutually assured self destruction, but because for human beings and there's a deep moral, fortitude there that somehow lined with competence in being good at your job. They, like it's very hard to be a psychopath and be good at killing at sea. Real easy share, any other intuition kind of, I think most people but I would say that alexander, the great and genghis khan and napoleon more effective people. There were good at their job. Ah, were actually may be asymmetrically good at being able. to organise people. And do certain kinds of things it were pretty oriented towards certain types of destruction or pretty willing to maybe-

would say they weren't oriented towards empire expansion, but pretty willing to commit certain acts. Destruction in the name of it. what are you worried about? The gang is con or you could argue, he's not a psychopath that a word wagging his car a word about hitler. Are you worried about a terrorist who is as a very different ethic, which has not even for off from its not trying to preserve build and expand. My community, it's more about just destruction in itself, is the goal. I think the thing that year. Looking at that I do agree with. Is that there's a psychological Disposition towards construction and psychology This position more towards destruction. Obviously, everybody has both in can table between both and

Oftentimes one is willing to destroy certain things. We have this idea of creative destruction right willing to destroy certain things, to create other things and utility as a main trolley problems are all about exploring that space in the idea of war is all, about that, I am trying to create something for our people, and that requires the strings of other people. It's a sociopath his. If any topic, it's possible to have very high fealty to your in group and work on perfecting the methods of torture to the out group at the same time, could can dehumanizing then remove empathy and. I would also say that there are types so the reason that thing that gives hope about the orientation towards, construction and destruction being a little different in psychology, says what it takes to build. Really catastrophic tech

even today, where it doesn't take what it took to make a new cook, a small group we will could do it takes still some real technical knowledge that wired. Having studied for awhile and some building capacity and there's a question is that psychologically inversely correlated with the desire to damage civilization meaningfully a little bit little bit? I think, and I think a lot I think is sexually. I mean this is the conversation I like what I think of I dont carling, which is like, is pretty easy, come up with ways that any company I can come up with a lot of ways to hurt a lot of people, as is pretty easy like ireland could do it in. There's a lot of people as smarter, smarter than me, at least in their creation of explosive, Why are we not seeing more

insane mass murder. I've. I think, there's something fascinating and beautiful about this and does to do with some deeply pro social types of character. Six in humans and but when you're dealing with very large numbers you dont, need whole lot of phenomena and to then you start to say well, what's the probability that x won't happen this year than won't happen in the next two years, three or four years, and then how many people are doing destructive things with lower tech and then how many of them can get access to higher texted. They didn't have to figure out how to build. So when I can get commercial and maybe I don't understand tat very well, but I understand it well enough to utilise atlanta created and I can replace it when saw that

she'll drown with homemade there, my bonnet the ukraine ukrainian munitions factory and do the equivalent of an incendiary bomb level of damage has just home tech as simple. Thing, and so the question is not what it does it stabbing a small percentage of the population. The question is: is, can you buying that phenomena nearly completely. And especially now when you, as you start to get into bigger things, crisper gene drive technologies and various things like that, and can you bind it completely long term for what period of time not perfectly, though, that's the thing I'm trying I'm trying to say that there is some

Let's call it the but such a random words love, that's inherent in that's core to human nature, that's preventing destruction at scale and you're, saying yeah, but there's a lot of humans. There's gotta be eight plus billion, and then there are a lot of seconds in the day to come up with stuff there's a lot of pain in the world that can lead to distorted view of the world such that you want to check that pain into the destruction, all kinds of things in an it's only a matter of time that anyone individual could do large damage special creature. more and more democratized decentralized. Wasted delivered,

damaging. If you don't know how to build the initial weapon you can. But the thing is, it seems like were it's a race between the cheapening of destructive weapons and the capacity of humans to express their love towards each other, and it's a race that so far I know on twitter. Are you- is that popular say by love is winning ok. So what is the argument that love is going to lose here against nuclear? opens a biotech and nay I and ii and drones? Ok, I'm gonna come at the end this too? How love wins? So I just want you to know. That where I'm oriented that's the end of that, I I'm I'm gonna argue against why that is given because it could not not given. I dont believe- and I think this data

It's good romantic comedy, see you're gonna great drama right now, but I will and happy wanting worse because it's only happy ending if we actually understand the issues well enough and take responsibility to shift it. Do I believe, like is a reason why there is so much more dystopian sci fi than prototype sci fi in the in the sum proton excise I easier requires magic is because, or at least magical tech right, dilithium, crystals, morgue, drives and stuff, because as its very hard to imagine, people like the people we have been in the history books with exponential tie. technology in power that don't venture blow themselves up to make good enough says, the stewards of their environment and their comments and and each other and etc. So, like it's easier to. Of scenarios worry blow ourselves up than it is to think of some areas where we avoid every single scenario where ourselves up and when I say,

or so that by else am I mean the environmental versions, the terrorist verse and they wore versions, the cumulative externalities versions and the I'm so firm interrupting your flock thought, but wisest easier. Is it could it be a weird psychological thing where we either there, which is more capable to visualize explosions and destruction and then the sicker thought, which is like we kind of enjoy for some weird reason, thinking about that kind of stuff, even though we wouldn't actually act on it? It's almost like some weirder, like I love playing shooter games, you know first person, shooters and like especially if it's like, murdering zalm, they do issue demons. I play Am I guess, diabolus slashing through different masters and screaming in pain and how fire and then I go out into the real world, I do eat my coconut ice cream and I'm all about love. So I get the can. We trust our bill.

To visualize how all it all go, see shit as an actual rational way of thinking. I think it's a fair question to say to what degree as they're just kind perverse fantasy and more exploration and whatever else it happens in our imagination. But I don't think that's the whole of it I think there is also a reality due to the combinatorial possibility space and the difference in the probabilities that there's a lot of ways. I could try to put the seventy trillion cells of your body together that don't make you there's not there anyways I can put them together that make you a lot of ways. I could try to connect the organs together that make some weird kind of group of war. It's honour on a despot that doesn't actually make a functioning human and anything

kill an adult human in a second. But you can't get one in a second takes twenty years to grow one and a lot of things to happen right. I could destroy this building in a couple minutes with demolition, but it took a year or a couple of years to build it. There is I don't call. This is just an example. It's not. He doesn't mean it. There's a there's, a gradient where entropy is easier and there's a lot more ways to put a set of things together that don't work than the few that really do produce higher order synergies and so. When we look at the history of war and then we look at. Exponentially more powerful warfare, an arms race drives that in all directions, and we look at history of environmental destruction and exponential, more powerful techniques, exponential externalities multiplied by the total number of agents that are doing it in their cumulative effects is alive,

of ways. The whole thing can break like a lot of different ways and for it to get had it has to have none of those happen and so it there's just a probability space where it's easier to imagine that thing. So what so to say how do we have a prototyping future? We have to say: well, one criteria must be It avoids all of the catastrophic risks. So can we The standard. Can we inventory all the catastrophic rescuing enjoy the patterns of human behaviour that give rise to them and could we try to solve. For that, and could we have that be the essence of the social technology that we're thinking about to be able to guide bind indirect anew physical technology could so far physical technology like we were talking about Gang is cons and like that that obviously use certain kinds of physical, ology in armaments and also social technology and unconventional warfare for a particular set of purposes, but we have things it don't look like. Warfare like

rockefeller and standard oil, and it looked like a constructive mindset too. be able to bring this new energy resource to the world. it did and second order effects of that are climate change and all of the oil spills that have happened and will happen and all the wars in the Middle east, over the oil that had been there and The massive political clusterfuck, inhuman issues that are associated with it and on and on right, and so it's also not just the organ patient to construct a thing can have a narrow focus on what I'm trying to construct but be affecting a lot of other things through second and third order effects, I'm not taking responsibility for it and you you're. You often

and that and another tangent mentioned second third and fourth order effects and the order and and the skating, which is really fascinating, like starting with the third order, plus It gets really interesting cause. We we don't. We don't even acknowledge, like the second order effects right, but like thinking cause those it could Matt, he could get bigger and bigger and bigger in ways we are not anticipating. So how do we make those? So it sounds like part of them Part of the thing that you're thinking through in terms of a solution had to create an entire Joe resilience society is to make explicit, acknowledge, understand the externalities. The second. What third or fourth order and the order affects how we start to think about those effects.

Yeah, the war application harm we're trying to cause or that we're where were causing reign, the externalities harm ITALY supposedly were not aware, were causing or or at minimum. It's not our intention right, maybe we are totally unaware of it or were aware of it, but it is a side effect of what our intention is. It's not the intention itself. There are catastrophic risk from both types, the direct application of increased technological power. to a rival rescind intent, which are gonna cause harm for some group for some in group to win, but the out group is also mom growing the tec and if they dont lose completely. They reverse engineer the tec. Up regulated, come back with more capacity, so there's the exponential tech arms race side of in group our group rivalry using exponential tech that has one set of risks and the the set of risks is the application of dependency, more powerful tech, not intentionally to try and beat in our group, but to trade.

Would she some goal that we have but to produce a second and third order, effects that do have hot to the comments other people to environment, other groups. The might actually be bigger problems and the problem we were originally trying to solve with a thing we're building when facebook was building a dating happened in building a social app apple people could tag pictures they weren't trying to old, a democracy destroying up the wood maximize time on site? As part of its add model, through a optimization of a news feed to the thing that made people spend most time on site, which is usually them being limply hijacked more then something else which ends up appealing to people's cognitive, biases and group identities and creates no sense of shared reality. They weren't trying to that, but it was a second order. Effect

and it's a pretty fuckin powerful. Second order effect and a pretty fast one. The rate of tec is obviously able to get distributed too much larger scale, much faster and with a bigger jump. In terms of total, capacity than that's what it means hits the vertical icing part of an exponential curve. So, just like, we can see that oil had this second order, environmental effects and also social and political effects, Warren so much of the whole like. The total amount of oil used is, has a proportionality, It's a total global gdp, and this way we have this petrodollar end and so the the thing also had the externalities of major aspect of what happened with military industrial, complex and things like that. So, but we can

the same thing, with with more current technologies with facebook and google and and other things, so I don't think we can run and the more powerful the tec is. We build it for reason, ex whatever reason nexus, maybe excess three It's maybe it's one thing ramp. We were doing the oil thing because we want to make cars, because it's a better method of individual transportation, we're building the facebook thing, because we're going to connect people socially in the personal sphere, but it it intersects with it interacts with complex systems. Ecologists, economies, psychology, cultures, and so it has effects on Then the thing were intending some of those effects can into being negative effects, but because this technology, if if we make it to solve a problem, it has to

come the problem. The problems been around for wiles can overcome in a short period of time, so usually has greater scale greater rate of magnitude in some way. That also means that the externalities that it creates, might be bigger problems, and he say, will. But then that's the new problem. Parliament, humanity will innovate its way out of that. Well, I don't think that's paying attention to the fact that we can't keep up with exponential curbs like that. Or do finite spaces allow exponential externalities forever, and this is why a lot of the smartest people. Thinking about this thinking. Well now I think we're too really screwed, and unless we can, a benevolent ay, I singleton that rules all of us enough guys, like boss, women and others are thinking in those directions. Cause they're like how do humans try to do multipolarity and make it work? And I I have a different answer of what I think it looks like that does have more to do with

love, but some applied social tackle aligned with love good, because I have a bunch of really dumb ideas at preferred filings. If you like to hear some of them first, I think the idea I would have, is to be a bit more rigorous in trying to measure the amount of if you add or subtract from the world in the second third. Fourth, fifth order affects its actually, I think, especially in the world of tackling quite doable beer. He might not like You know the shareholders may not like that kind of metric, but is pretty The measure I get not even now perhaps half joking about love, but look attack by just happiness,

Well? Being long term? Well being is pretty easy for facebook for youtube for all these companies to measure that they do a lot of kinds of surveys they could do. I mean there's very simple solutions here that you could just survey how many servers are in some sense use useless, because there are a subset of the population. You just trying to get a sense is very loose kind of understanding, but integrated deeply as part of the tech most of our attack is recommended systems most of the side, not tech, us online interaction is driven by recommending systems that learn very low

if the data by you use that data based on mostly based on traces, your previous behavior, to suggest future things. This is how twitter is as facebook works. This is how adsense google adsense works is how netflix you to work and so on, and and for them to just track, as opposed to engagement. How much you spend on a particular video particular site is all such track. Give you the technology to do so, self report of what makes you feel good. May she grows a person of what makes you are. You know the best version of yourself. The

the the the rogan idea of the hero of your movie and just add that little bit of information, if you are you have people you have this luck happiness surveys of how you feel about the last five days. How'd, you report your experience. You can lay out the set of videos, this kind of fascinated where I don't know if you ever look on youtube the history of videos, you've looked at fascinating, it's very embarrassing for me, like you'll, be like a lecture and then Like a set of videos that I don't want anyone to know about wishes, which it, which will be, I I don't know, maybe like five

years in railway. It looks like I watched the whole thing, which I probably did about like how to cook a steak, even though, or just like the best chefs in the world cooking steaks and I'm just like sitting there watching it for no purpose whatsoever, wasting away my life or like funny cat videos or like legit, that that doesn't that's always good one, and I could look back and rate which videos. Made me a better person and not- and I mean, on a more serious note, there's a bunch of conversations podcasts or lectures I've watched, which made me a better person and some of them made me a worse person, quite honestly, not for stupid reasons like I feel dumber, but because I do have a sense that that started me on a path of. I've not being kind to other people, for example, are give you are from my own and I'm sorry for him.

but maybe there's some usefulness, this kind of aspiration of self, when I focus on creating programming on science, I become a much deeper thinker and a kinder person to others. When I listen to too many a little bit is good, but too many podcast or videos about how how our world is melting down or criticising ridiculous people. The worst of the koran quote woke, for example, all this all these groups that are miss behaving in fast, any ways because they ve been corrupted by power

The more I want, the more I watch criticism of them, the worse I become and am aware of this, but I am also aware that it, for some reason, is pleasant to watch those, sometimes and so forth. For me to be of the soft report that to the youtube algorithm to the sisters around me, and they ultimately try to optimize to make me the best person unless the best version of myself, which I personally believe would make youtube a lot more money, because I'd be much more willing to spend time in Egypt and give each about mom a lot more. My money, that's that's great for business and gray for humanity because and make me a car, the person you increase the the love quotient. The love metric and die you'll make them a lot of money. I feel like everything's align as though you should do that, not just for youtube algorithm, but also for military

attitude and further to go to war, not because one externalities can think of about going to war, which I think we talked about a fly. is we often go to war with kind of governments, though, with not with the people. You have to think about the kids of countries that see a soldier and because of what they experienced the international soldier hate is born when you're like eight years old, six years old Is your die use your mom? You lose a friend somebody close to you. They want a really powerful externality that could be reduced to love positive and negative is the hate, those born when you make decisions and that's going to take fruition it that that little

seed is going to become a tree. That then leads to the kind of destruction that whether we talk about ah so, but my my sense, it's possible to reduce everything to our measure of how much love does this add to the world. All that to say I do have ideas of how we practically build systems that that the creator a resilient society, there are a lot of good things that you shared, where there's like fifteen different way if we could enter this. That are all interesting. So I am trying to see which one will probably be most useful pick the the one or two things that are least ridiculous. When you were mentioning, if we could see some of

The second order effects are externalities that we aren't used to seeing specifically the one of a kid being radicalized somewhere else which in genders enmity in them towards us which decreases our own future security. Even if you don't care about the kid, if you care about the kids or other thing I yeah, I mean I think, when we saw this when jane, fonda and others went to vietnam and took photos and videos was happening. You gotta see the pictures of the kids with napalm on them. That like the anti war effort was bolstered by that in a way it couldn't have been. Without that this there's a Until we can see the images you can't have a mere neuron of effect in the same way, and when you can that search that ever a powerful effect there's a deep principle that year sharing there, which is that, if we we can have a rivalries intent where are

in group, whatever it is. Maybe it's our political party wanting to win within the EU s. Maybe it's our nations, wanting to win a war or an economic war over resource or whatever, it is that if we don't obliterate, the other people completely, they dont go away there they're not engendered too like us more, there you didn't become less smart, so they more enmity towards us and whatever technologies we employed to be successful, they will now reverse engineer generations on and come back, and you you drive an arms race, which is why you can see that the wars were over history employing more lethal weaponry, and not just the kinetic or the information war and the narrative war and the economic or write like it just increased capacity and all of those fronts, and so what seems like a wind to us on this.

Term might actually really produce losses in the long term even in our own. Best interests in the long term is probably more lined with everyone else, because we enter affect each other, and I think the thing about globalism, globalization and exponential tech. rate at which we affect each other in the rate at which we affected by austria? That we're all affected by is. Did this this kind of. Proverbial spiritual idea that we're all interconnected and needs, think about that in some way there was easy for tribes to get because everyone in the tribe so clearly saw their interconnection and dependence on each other, but in terms of a global level that this he'd, at which we are actually interconnected. The speed at which the harm happening to something in will Han affects the rest of the world or a new technology. develop somewhere affects the entire world or an environmental issue or whatever is making it where we either Actually, all get not as a spiritual idea, just even us physics right, we all get to the end

connected nests of everything in the we either all consider that and see how to make it through more effectively together or failures anywhere in that becoming decrease quality of life, and failures in increased risk everywhere. Don't you think people began to experience that at it, individual level, so governments are resisting it they're they're, trying to It not empathize with each other feel connected, but don't you think people began to feel more more connected legacy? exactly the technologies enabling, like social networks we tend to criticise them but Isn't there a says which were experience. You know. when you watch those videos that are criticising whether its thee woke anti for side, or the coup, and on from supporter side seem like bay, have increased empathy. people that are outside of their ideological and not enough time. Maybe it maybe

conflicting, my own experience world and that over that of the populace, I tend to see those videos. As feeding something that's a relic of the past. They figured out the drama fuels clicks, but whether I'm right or wrong. I dont know bryce tenders, sense that that is not that hunger for dramas, not fundamental human beings that we want actually the we want to understand and- and we wanted empathize want to take radical ideas and be able to empathize with them, and let me emphasise that all ok, let's look at Cultural outliers, in terms of violence, first, compassion, we can see a lot of cultures, have rarely

tivoli lower in group, violence, bigger our group, vial send their some variants in them in various different times, based on the scarcity or abundance of resource and other things. But you can look at, say, jaynes. whose whole religion is around nine by so much so that they don't even hurt plants, only take fruits, it fall often stuff or to go a larger population? You take buddhists where, for the most part, with a few exceptions for the most part across three millennia and across a lot different countries and geographies in whatever you have ten million. But plus or minus, who don't hurt bugs the whole spectrum of genetic area that is happening within a culture of that many people, head traumas and whatever, and nobody hurts bugs and you look at a group- were the kids group, as child soldiers and liberia or darfur, were to make it to adulthood, pretty much everybody's killed people and the hand and care

People who were civilians are innocent people, and you say okay, so we were very neotenists. We can be conditioned by our environment and humans can be conditioned. Were almost all the human show up in these two different bell. Curves doesn't mean that the buddhas had no violence. It doesn't mean that these people had no compassion, but that they are very different, gaussian distributions, and so I think one of the important things that I like to do is look at the examples of that populations with buddhism shows regarding compassion or what jude some shows around education that average level of education that everybody gets because of a culture that is the workmen conditioning, edward or various cultures. What are the positive deviance outside of this statistical deviance to see what is actually possible and then say what are the conditioning factors and killing condition those across a few of them salmon,

immediately and could we build a civilization like that becomes a very interesting question. So there's this guy? real politic idea of it. humans are violent. Large groups of humans become violent? They become irrational, specifically those two things: reverend violent and irrational, and so in order to minimize the total amount of violence and of some good decisions in need ruled somehow- and it getting that as some kind of naive utopian ism, the doesn't understand human nature. Yet this gets back to like my nieces of desire as an inexorable thing, I think, did of the masses is actually a kind of propaganda that is useful for the classes that control to popularized the idea that most people are too violent. Lazy disciplined and irrational to make good choices and therefore their choices should be supplemented in some kind of way. I think that if we look back at

conditioning environments. We can say: okay, so the kids they go to a really fancy school and have a good developmental environment like exit or academy, there's still a gaussian distribution. How well they do on any particular metric, but on average they become senators. And the worst ones become high end lawyers or whatever, and then Look at it in our city school, with a totally different set of things, and I see a very, very differently displaced, causing distribution with very different set of conditioning factors are then I say the masses will, if all those kids who are one of the parts of the mass gotta go to exit are and have that family whatever would they still be? The masses could. We actually condition more social virtue, more civic virtue, more orientation towards dialectical, synthesis, more empathy, more rationality, widely. Yes,.

Would that lead to better capacity for something like participatory governance, democracy, a republic or some kind of participatory governance? Yours, yes, is it necessary for it? Actually, yes, and is it good for class interests now really, oh by the way. The class interested this is the powerful leaning over the left. My fault that kind of idea. Anyone and if it from a cemeteries of power, doesn't necessarily benefit from decreasing those cemeteries of power and you kind of increasing the capacity of people more widely. And so, when we talk about power we're talking about asymmetries and agency, influence and control. You think that hunger for power is fundamental to human nature. I think we should get this straight before tat. One of the sea So I got this this. This

pickup line that I use at a bar off his power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Is that true, or is that just a fancy thing to say In modern society they get that there's something beset have we changed as societies over time in terms of how much would crave power that there is an m, course towards power that is innate in people and can be conditioned one where the other yes. But you can see that buddhist society does a very different thing with it at scale that you don't and seeing the emergence of the same types of sociopath behaviour and peculiarly than creating sociopath ec institutions? And so it's like is eating the foods that were rare and our evolutionary environment, to give us more dope, mean hit because they were rare and they're, not anymore, salt, fat sugar. Is there

with pleasure about about those were humans have an orientation to overheat if they can well the fact that there is that stability doesn't mean everyone will obviously be obese and die of obesity rate like it's possible to have a particular em. And to be able to understand, as have other ones and be able to balance them and so to say that power diana mix r r r obligate in humans- and we can't do anything about it- is very similar to me to saying like we could. Everyone is gonna be publicly obese yes, there is some degree to which does the control, those impulses do the conditioning early in life. Yes, our enemy culture that creates the end I want to be able to do that and then the recursion on that. But guess what if we were to bear with just asking friendly forward all humans on earth. Start over is their ideas about how to build up or get would article

Let's leave the humans on earth there fine and go to mars. Is there a new society. Is there are ways to construct systems of conditioning education of how we live with each other? There would down there would incentivize us properly to not seek power not to not. construct systems there of symmetry of power and decreases, and they're resilient to all kinds of terrorist attacks to the all kinds of destructions? I believe so so is there some inklings we'll get? Of course you probably don't have the answer, all the answers, but give insights about what that looks. Like I mean, is it just the current practice of dialectic synthesis as essentially conversations with assholes various flavors,

till they're not ass, all anymore, because you ve become a deeply apathetic with their experience, a k. So there's a lot of things that we would need to construct a combat this like what is the basis of rivalry. What how do you find it out as it relates to tack if you have a cold for that is doing less rivalry? Does it always lose in war to those who do or better, and how do you make something on the enactment of how to get there from here gregg rate? So what's rivalry wise were, is rarely batter. Good is Gaza is another word for every competition. Yes, I think roughly. Yes, I think bad and good are kind of silly concepts here. For something this bad for other things for resolving contexts and others even that vodka Let me give you an example that relates back to the facebook measuring thing. Your mentioning a moment ago, first

I think what you're saying is actually aligned with the right direction and what I want to get to in a moment. But it's not the the devil is in the details here. So I I enjoy praise Is my ego? I grow stronger, so I appreciate that I will make sure to include a one piece, every fifteen minutes, as we can help you do so. It's easier to measure their problems with this. jim and better there's also utility to it. So let's take it for that utility ass first it's to measure happiness than it is to measure comfort? we can measure with technology that this ox and a car making the car bounce less. That the bed is softer and material science in those types of things and happiness is actually hard for philosophers to define because.

and people find that there are certain kinds of overcoming suffering that are necessary for happiness is happiness. It feels more like contentment and happiness it feels more like passion is his passion, the source of the? suffering or the source of our creativity like there is deep stuff, and it's mostly first person not measurable third persons of even if maybe it corresponds to a third person, separatism agree, but we also see examples of some of our favorite examples, people who, in the worst environment, to indict finding happiness right where the third person self looks to be less conducive in their some victor frank, nelson mandela, whatever. But it's pretty easy to measure. Comfort is pretty universal and I think we can see that the industrial revolution started to replace happiness with comfort quite heavily as the thing it was optimize. four and we can see that win increase comfort is given may because of the evolutionary disposition that extending extra

salaries, when, for the majority of our history we didn't have extra calories was not a safe thing to do. Who knows why, when extra comfort is given its very easy to take that path? Even if it's not the path it supports overall, well being long term, and so we can see that you know when you, when you look at the technical optimist, idea that we have better lives in egyptian fair and kings and whenever what their largely looking at is how comfortable our beds are and how comfortable the transportation systems are, and things like that, in which cases massive improvement. But we also see that in some of the nations were people have access to the most comfort suicide, mental illness or the highest. and we also see that some of the happiest cultures are some of the ones that are in materially lame environments and tat. A very interesting question here, and if I understand correctly, you called showers,

and Joe rogan is talking about how he needs to do some fairly intensive kind of struggle, is a non comfort to actually induce being better as a person, this concept of horror misis dead, It's actually stressing in adaptive system, increases its adaptive capacity and that their something that the happiness of the system something to do with its adaptive capacity, its overall resilience, health wellbeing, which requires a decent bit of discomfort and yet in the in the presence of the comfort solution very hard to not choose it and then, as your choosing it regularly to actually down regulate your overall adaptive capacity, and so when we start saying, can we make Tech, where we're measuring for the things that it produces beyond just the measure of gdp or whatever particular measures, look like the ribbon,

generation of profit generation of my business are all the meaningful things measurable. and what are the right measures and what are they externalities of optimizing for that measurements at what meaningful things aren't included in that measurement set that might have their own externalities. These are some of the quest Do you have to take seriously? I think they're answerable question right progressing. We better, not perfect right. So I suffer lenny throughout happiness and comfort out a discussion as you like, useless. The distinction it I cause, I said their useful well being is useful, but I think I can take it back a I knew. I propose new metrics and this brainstorm session, which is so one is like personal growth, which is intellectual growth, I think were able to

make that concrete, far south, like you're, better person- and you were a week ago- worse personally, you are, we go, I think, weaken ourselves report that an end and understand what they It means it's is grey area and we try to define it, but I think we humans are pretty good at that, because we have a sense and idealistic sense of the person we might be able to become which we all dream of becoming a certain kind of person, and I think we have a sense of getting closer and not towards that Maybe this is not a great metric find the other one is love actually fuck if you're happy or not or you're comfortable, or not how much love you have towards your fellow human beings. I feel like if you try to optimize that in increasing that there's going to have a good metric,

How many times a day, sorry, if I can make quantify how many times a day, have you thought positively of another human being split them down? The number increase that number I think the process of saying ok, so, let's not take judy, peer gdp per capita symmetrical on optimized, for because gdp goes up during war and it goes up with more healthcare spending from sicker people in various things that we wouldn't say correlate to quality of life addiction drives BP awesomely by the way, what s a growth, I was afraid you generally and give em giving an example now of the primary met trick we use and why it's not inadequate mattress can cause we're exploring other ones. So the idea of saying what would the metrics for a good civilization be if I had to pick a set of metrics? What would the best ones be if I was going to optimize for those and then really try to run the thought, experiment more deeply and say

Kay. So what happens if we optimize for that? Try to think through the first answer, and third order effects of what happens its positive and then also say what negative things can happen from optimizing that what actually matters. It is not included in that or in that way of defining it because love verses, number of positive thoughts per day. I could just make a long list of names and just think say, positive thing about each one. It's all very superficial not include animals are the rest of life. Have you have a very shy? a low tar total amount of it, but I'm optimizing the number and vague in some credit for the number, so that in this when I said the model of reality isn't reality. When you make a settlement, tricks they were and optimize for this. Whatever ray, quality, as that is not included in those metrics can be? The areas were harm occurs, which is why I would say that Wisdom is something like that.

Discernment. That leads to right choices beyond what metrics based optimization would offer. yeah, but another way say that this was m is constantly expire, ending in evolving set of metrics zones, There is something new that that is a a new metric. It's important that isn't part of that metric set too. There is a certain kind of connection The sun meant awareness, and this is it this innovative game theory this girdles, incomplete I I'm right, which is if the system, if the set of things is consistent, it won't be complete, so we're going to keep adding to it, which is why sing earlier. I don't think it's not beautiful and the special. You're just saying one of the metric you on optimist, fourth, individual level is becoming right. There, becoming more will? That's been becomes true for civilization, and our metric sets as well

definition of how to think about a meaningful life and meaningful civilization. I can tell you it's on my favorite metrics, or was that. What love is obviously not a metric? It's like you could bench yeah good metric yeah. I went up optimize that across the entire population, starting with infants, so well. In the same way, that love isn't the metric, but you could make metrics that look at certain parts of the singam about to say isn't the metric. But it's a it's a consideration cause. I thought about this a lot. I don't think there is a metric, a right one and I think that every metric by itself without thing we talked about the continuous improvement becomes a paperclip maximizing. I think that's. Why do what the idea false idle mean? in terms of the model of had he not been reality than my sacred relationship is to reality itself, which also binds me to the unknown forever to unknown, but also to the end, and there's a sense of sacredness

Acted to the unknown that creates an epistemic humility that has always seeking not just to optimize the thing I know but to learn new stuff and to be been to perceive reality directly, so my model never become sacred. My models useful making them can't be the far side are correct, and this is why the first versus teaching is the doubt it is naples, not the eternal thou. The naming. It can become the source of the ten thousand things that, if you get too carried away with, it, can actually obscure you from paying attention to reality beyond and the models. He sounds along a lot like stephen wolfram, but in a different language, much more poetic I can imagine that not I'm afraid, I'm joking, but there's echoes a sally automata. Would you can't name you can construct the model, Sally Atomic, you can really work All in all, I apologise on distracting you train of thought, horribly miserably making by the way something robots are good at it

dealing with the uncertainty of uneven ground. You ve been ok. So far you ve been doing wonderful. So what's your favorite metrics other, I know you know. I have a class informative, so one metric, problems of this. But one metric that I like to just as the thought experiment to consider is cause you're actually asking were Man, I know you ask your desks about the meaning of life, because, ultimately, when your silent when you're saying what is a desirable civilization, you can answer that without entering what is a meeting for human life in it to say what good civilization cause it's gonna, be in relationship to that right. And then you have whatever your answer is. Have you know what is it? What is the epistemic basis from fur postulating that There is also another reason for asking this question at all mean that that doesn't

in you whatsoever, which is its is it's a few people have been asked, questions like it. We we joke about these questions is silly right It's it's funny to watch a person and if I was more of an asshole, I would really stick on that question right. Isn't it the question in some sense, but like we're really considered what it means just a more. Free version that questions? What is what is a better world? What is the kind of who are trying to create really What have you really thought like economy? you, some kind of simple answers to that that are meaningful to me, but let me do the societal indices first cause their funds. We should take note of this meaningful This is important connecting a you remind me to ask you about the meaning. Nor did I mean

at their down yourself, but because I think I stopped tracking like twenty five open threads. Ok letter all burn one. Index that I find very interesting is the inverse correlation of addiction within the society. Maura society produces addiction within the people in it the less healthy? I think the society is as a pretty fundamental metric. And so the more the individual's feel that there are less compulsive things in camp. compelling them to behave in ways that are destructive to their own values in so far as a civilization is conditioning in influencing the individuals within it. The inverse of addiction broadly defined creation woods

compulsive behaviour that is destructive towards things that we value the. I think that's a very interesting one: two fingers relaunched in one year and This then also where comfort and addiction start to get very close and the ability to go in the other. direction from addiction. Is the ability to be exposed to hyper normal stimuli and not go down the path of decency eyes into other stimuli and needing that happened. Almost Emily, which does involve a kind of for me says so you think the civilization of the future has to create something ritual eyes discomfort? And rituals discomfort, I think, that's what the sweat lodge in the valley, in quest and the solo journey, and they I'll ask a journey in the sundance. Were I think, it's even a big

part of what yoga asana was and is. Make beings that are resilient and strong? They have to overcome some things to make beings and control their own mind and fear? They have to face some fears, but we don't want to put everybody in war or real trauma. And yet we can see that the most fucked up people we know had childhoods of a lot of trauma. But some of the most incredible people we know had shall have a lot of time whether or not they happen to make it through and overcome that are not. So. How do we get the benefits of thee, stealing of character? and the resilience and that, whatever that happen from the difficulty, without traumatize in people, a certain kind of ritual ized discomfort. They had not only has us overcome something by ourselves, but overcome it

together with each other, where nobody bails when it gets hard, because the other people are there. So it's both a resilience of the individuals and a resilience of the bonding. So I think we'll keep getting more and more comfortable stuff, but we have to also develop resilience in the presence of that for the anti addiction direction and they fullness of character and the trustworthy the others. be consistently injecting discovered it does. This ritual lies. It sounds like The magistrates of his happy have to are imagine, says first, his rock after molly resilient from metrics perspective society. so we want. We want a costly, be throwing rocks at ourselves, not constantly. You didn't have to frequently periodically periodic

and the different levels of intensity. Different periods is now. I do not think this should be imposed by states, I think it should emerge from cultures, and I think the cultures are developing people that understand the value of it should the people. So there is both a cultural cohesion to it but there's also a voluntary ism, because the people value the thing that is being developed to understand it and that's where conditions as conditioning his condition. Some of these sums these values and conditioning A bad word because we like our idea of sovereignty, but when we recognise the language that we speak and the words that we think and in the end, the patterns of built in the bad language and the aesthetics that we like and so much is conditioned in us just based on where were born. You can't not condition people, all you can do, is take more responsibility for what the conditioning factors are, and then you have to think about this question of what is a meaningful human life, because, where

the other animals born into environment, their genetically adapted for we are building new environments that we were not adapted for then we are becoming affected by So then we have to say will what kinds of environments, digital environments, physical environment, social environments, would we want to create that would develop the hell The highest happiest most moral noble, meaningful people were Even though sets of things that matter so you end up getting deep existential consideration at the heart. of civilization design when you start to how powerful were becoming and how much what were building in service towards matters before a poet. I think ray thrashing just lay down. I is there another metric index say you're in. Should I tell you one more that I really like this

number one in the next when it comes to mind, is apt to make a very quick model. Ah healthy human bonding say we were in a travel typesetting My positive emotional states in your positive emotional states would most I'm be correlated your negative emotional states in mine, and so you start laugh start laughing, you start crying, my eyes might tear up and we would call that the compassion, can persian access. I would. This is a model if I find useful, compassion is when you're feeling something negative. I feel some pain. I feel some empathy something and relationship composure when you do well, I'm stoked for you right like actually feel mean. Is that your house like composure, yet the fact that it such as Uncommon word in English is actually a problem culturally, because I feel that

in writing as a really good feeling to feel and maximize version has actually the metric. I'm gonna say our is the compassion Conversion at access is the thing out. Optimized for now bears state where my emotional it's in your emotional nature, just totally decoupled, and that is like socio bothy, I dont want to hurt you, but I don't care if I do or for you to do well, there's a worse statements, streamline common, which is where their inversely, coupled where my positive motions, corresponding or negative ones, and vice versa, and that is the I would call it the jealousy sadism access, the jealousy access, is when you're doing really well, I feel something bad I feel taken away less than upset envious, whatever and that's so common, but I Of it is kind of a low grade, psycho pathology that we'd just normalized the eye

here that I'm actually upset at the happiness or fulfilment of successive another's like a profoundly fucked up thing, now we shouldn't shame it repressive. So it gets worse. We should study it. Where does it come from and comes from our own in securities and stuff, and but then the next that everybody knows is really fucked up is just on the same acts sits. The same, inverted witches. to the jealousy or the envious there. I feel badly when you're doing well The sadism site is actually feel good when you lose or when and pay, and I feel some happiness its associate and you can see when someone feel jealous. Sometimes they feel Joe for the partner and then they feel they want that partner to get it. Revenge comes up or something so. Sadism is really like jealousies, one step on the path to sadism from the healthy compassion conversion access. So I would like to see us eighty that is inversely that is conditioning sadism in policy inversely right. The lower that amount.

And the more the compassion conversion and if I had to summarize, I very simply I'd say it would optimized for conversion, which is his note, notice, That's not just saying love for you wear maybe self sacrificing and miserable, and I love people, but I kill myself which adopting in waiting, great idea or happiness, where my be sociopath ugly, happy where I'm causing problems all over the place. Reuben statistically happy. But it's a coupling right that I am actually feeling happiness and relationships years and even in causal relationship where I, my own, energetic desire to get happier wants to support you, too, that they see Speaking of another pick up line, that's cool I honestly what I, as a citizen whose single this is gonna come out very ridiculous. Like oh yeah, where's, your girlfriend brow, but that's how I look for new relationship, because it's like it so much it

So at such an amazing life, were you actually get joy from another person success and they get joy from your success and that it becomes like you know, actually need to see So much for that to have a like a loop cycle of just like happiness. That increases like exponentially it's weird, so I just be just enjoying the happiness of others is success of others? So does this is like the up? Let's call this was the first person I drill this into my head is rogan, Joe rogan, his embodiment of that cause. I saw somebody who is a successful, rich and non stop. True, and if you could tell when somebody's fulla shit, if something is not right

really genuinely enjoying the success of his friends, though that was weird to me as interesting, and the new mean the way you're kind of speaking to it. That the reason Joe stood out to me is- I guess I Haven'T- witnessed genuine expression of that. Often in this culture of just real joy for others and a part of that has to do, there hasn't been many channels where you can watch or listen to people being their authentic selves. So I'm sure there's a bunch of people who live life with they probably dont seek public attention also put the that those that yeah. If, if there is any word, they can express what what I've learned from John, why he's been it really inspiring figures? Is that compulsion, and now wish. Our world was. And a lot more of that, because then it me.

I mean my own associate said to go on a small tangent but like you're speaking how society should function, but I feel like, if you optimize for that metric in your purse, life you're going to are delivered truth fulfilling life. I know what the right word to you. but that's a really good way to live life. You also learn what gets in the way of it, my and how to work with that, if you wanted to help, try to build systems at scale or apply facebook or exponential technologies. To do that, you would have more actual depth of real knowledge of what that takes in this as as you mentioned, that there's this virtuous cycle between when you get stoked on other people doing well, then they have a similar were relationship to you and everyone is in the process of building each other up, and this is what I would say, the healthy version of competition is versus the unhealthy version,

The healthy version right the the route- I believe, it's old latin word- that means to strive together and it's that impulse to become. Where I want to become more, but I recognise that there is actually a whore me says: there's a challenge that is needed for me to be able to do that. But that means that yes, there's an impulse trying to get ahead, maybe I'm even trying to win but actually want a good opponents, and I want to get ahead too, because that is where my ongoing becoming happens in the win itself will get boring very quickly. The ongoing coming is where there's a likeness and for the angle. Becoming they need to have it to that's the strive together, the sudden the competition, I'm stoked when they're doing really well cause my becoming is supported by it. Now this actually a very nice egg way into. a model I like about what a meaningful human life is. If you want to go there.

Does go there wasn't going to hunt, for I have three things I'm going elsewhere with, but if we were first, let us take this short stroll through the park of the meaning of life. Daniel. What is a meaningful life, I think come A man dixon that mattering does a lot of people. Will the word meaning in the word purpose almost interchangeably and they'll tucker they'll. Think If what is the meaning of my life, what is the meaning of human life? What is the meaning of life? What's the meaning of the universe, and what is the meaning exist and travel nonexistent to this lot of kind of existential considerations there and, I think, there's some cognitive mistakes that are very easy, like taking the idea of purpose, which is a goal to suit material concept, the purpose of one thing, is defined in relationship to other things that have assumed value and say what

the purpose of everything will its purpose is too small a question. It's fundamentally a relative question within everything: what is the purpose of one thing relative to another? What is the purpose of everything, and there is nothing outside of it with which to say it? You actually just got to the limits of the utility of the concept of purpose. It doesn't mean it's this list in the sense of something inside of it being purposeless, it means the concept is too small, which is why you end up getting too. You know can taoism talking about the nature of its rather there's a fundamental. What were the, why can't go deeper, is the nature of it, but I'm gonna try to speak to too much. simpler part, which is when people think about what is a meaningful human life and kind of. If we were to Optimized for something at the level of individual life, but also how does optimal This, the love of the individual life led to the best society for insofar as people living there,

they affect others and long term. World is hope, and how would we then a civilization. It was trying to think about these things. Could you can see that there are a lot of dialectics where there's value on two sides. Evangelism and collectivism more and the ability to who accept things and the ability to push harder in whatever and. failure modes on both sides and so when you are starting, say: okay, individual happiness, you like wait, fuck sadists can be happy, are hurting people time individual happiness, it's love, but wait. Some people can self sacrifice out love in a way that actually ends up just creating co dependency for everybody or okay. So, So how do we think about all those things together? One like this kind of came to me as a simple way that I kind of relate to it. Is that a meaning,

the life involves the mode of being the most of doing in the motive becoming and involves a virtuous relation, between those three and that any modes on their own. Also have failure. renate, meaningful life, the mode of bee, in the way I would describe it if, if we're talking about the essence of it, is about taking in and appreciating the beauty of life. That is now that is in the moment- and that is largely about being with what is. its fundamentally grounded in the nature of experience in the meaning fulness of experience. The prey aphasia meaningfulness of when I'm having this experience, I'm not actually

ask him what the meaning of life is, I'm actually full of it. I met my full of experiencing it. The momentary experience, yes, so taking in the beauty of life doing is adding to the beauty of life a pretty produce some art and then a pretty some technology that will make life easier, more beautiful for somebody else, I'm going to Do some science that will end up leading to better in which are others, people's ability to appreciate the beauty of life more because they understand more about it or whatever it is or protect it. I'm going to protect it in some way, but that's adding to or being in service of the beauty of life through our doing and becoming is getting better at both of those being able to deepen our being, which is to be able to bacon. The beauty of life more profoundly, be more moved by it, touched by it and incur

in our capacity with doing to add to the beauty of life more and so I hold today. Meaningful life has to be all three of those and where They're not in conflict with each other, ultimately, it grounds being a grounds in the intrinsic meaningful knesset experience and then I am doing, is ultimately something that will be able to increase the possibility of the quality of expense for others. And my becoming is deepening on those two grounds and x areas and also the evolutionary possibility of experience, and the point is to oscillate between these- never getting stuck at any one wise it in parallel. You can't really attention is a thing you can. I allocate attention. I want moments where

I'm absorbed in the sunset and then not thinking about what to do next and then the fullness of that can make it to where my doing doesn't come from. What's in it, for me, cause actually feel. Overwhelmingly full already and it's like? How can I, how can I make life better other people that don't have as much opportunities I had. How can I add something? Wonderful, how can I be in the creative process, and so think, where the doing comes from matters and if the doing comes from a fullness of being its inherent legally be paying attention externalities or more oriented do that, then, if it comes from some emptiness that is trying to get full in some way, that is willing to cause sacrifices other places and where a chunk of its attention is internally focused and so, when buddha said, desires the cause of all suffering than later, the valve the bodhisattvas

was to show up for all sentient beings in hers. Forever is a pretty intense thing like desire I would say: there's a kind of desire fitting of desire as a basis for movement like a flow or a gradient as a kind of desire that comes from something missing inside seeking fulfillment of that in the world. That ends up being the cause of actions that perpetuate suffering, but there's also not just non desire, there's a kind of desire that comes from feeling full at the beauty of life. wanting to add to it. That is a flow this direction, and I don't think that is the cause of suffering. I think that is you know In the western tradition, read the eastern traditions focused on that and kind of conditional happiness outside of them in the moment outside of time western tradition said no actually desires the source of creativity and we're here to be the image and likeness of the creator we're here to be fundamentally creative but dating from where and in service of what creating from a sense of

and everything and homeless and service of the well being of all. That is very different, which is back to their compassion conversion axis being doing becoming spray powerful, also good. potentially be algorithm, enticed into a robot just saying where does the word? Is death come into that. Being is forgetting that the concept of time completely there's a says, the doing and becoming the has a deadline and build, then the urgency built then do they death is fundamental to this Meaningful life acknowledging or arm.

Feeling the terror of death- I gonna Becker are just knowledge in the certainty, the mystery, the the melancholy nature, the fact that the right ends that party the equation is unnecessary, Ok, I will look at how it could be related. I've experienced fear of death have also experienced. Times where I thought I was gonna die, it felt extremely peaceful and beautiful, and it's funny because we we can, be afraid of death because we're afraid of hell or battering carnation, Bardo or some kind of idea of the afterlife. We have over projecting some kind of sentient suffering, but if we're afraid of just non experience, I noticed it every time I stay up late enough at I'm, really tired, I'm longing for deep, deep sleep and non experience,

right like, I'm actually longing for experience to stop and if not morbid, if not a bummer, it's an end. I dont mind fallen asleep at night times when I wake up want to go back into it and then, when it's done It had come out of it so when we think about death and having finite time here- and we could talk about if we live forever, nears instead of a hundred or something like that is so be find that time, the one or with the age we die is that I generally find people mostly start to emotionally mature just shortly before they die. But damn this, if I get a live forever, I can just stay focused on. What's in it, for me forever

And if life continues and consciousness, sanctions and people appreciating daddy and adding to it and become, continues. My life doesn't, but my life can have effects continue well beyond it. Then life with a capital l starts mattering more to me than my life. My life gets to be a part of and in service too and the whole thing about, when old men plant trees, of which will never get to be in, and I, first time. I read this poem by Hafez, the sushi poet written in like thirteenth century, or something like that, and he talked about if you're lonely to think about him and his kind of leaning, his spirit in two years, whilst the distance of the millennium and would come for you

with these poems, and I was thinking about people millennium from now and caring about their experience and whether they be suffering, if they'd be lonely, and could he offer something that could touch them and just fucking, beautiful and so, like the most beautiful part, Humans have to do. Is something that transcends what's in it for me and death forces you to that Not only does that great urgency it urged They are doing it in Iraq. it does have the sense in which it does incentivize is the compulsion and the compassion. And the widening you remember: einstein had that quote something to the effect of its an optical delusion of consciousness, to believe their separate things. There's this one thing: we call universe and something about us being inside, of a prison of perception that can only you know,

See a very narrow little bit of it, but this this might be just. some weird disposition of mine, but when I think about the future after I'm dead- and I think about consciousness, I think about. young people falling in love for the first time in their their experience, and I think about people being awed by sunset son. I think about all the right. I can't not feel connected to that. Do you feel some saddened, to the very high likelihood that you'll be forgotten completely by all of human history. You daniel the name that that which cannot be named systems like to self perpetuating.

Egos do that the idea that I might do something meaningful that future people appreciate, of course, there's like a certain sweetness to that idea. But I know how many people did something did things that I wouldn't be here without Life would be less without whose names I will never know, and I feel a gratitude to them. I feel a closeness I feel touched by that and, I think, to two degrees. the future people are conscious enough. There is a lot of traditions had this and of are we being good ancestors and respect for the ancestors beyond the names? That's a very healthy idea. But let me return to a much less beautiful, much less pleasant conversation. You mention prison back to ex risk. Ok,.

and conditioning you mentioned something about the state? So what role? Let's talk about companies? Governments, parents all the mechanisms that can be a source of conditioning which flavour of ice can do. You, like you, think the state is the right thing for the future, so governments elected democratic systems that representing representative democracy. Is there some kind of political system of governance that you find appealing? Is it parents, meaning a very close knit tribes? conditioning this the most essential and then you and Michael malice, would happily agree that its anarchy or the state should be dissolved.

were destroyed or burnt the god. If your michael malice, giggling holding the torch, the fire burns so which, which is it is the state, can stay, be good or is the state for the condition of beautiful world air. If this is, I can, as you like it as you like, to give these a simplified, good or bad things, and would I like the state we live in currently the united states federal government to stop existing today now I would really not like that. I think that'd be not quite bad for the world and a lot of ways. I do. I think that it's a. Optimal social system in maximally just inhumane and all those things, and I want to continue, as is no also not that bad

am much more interested in it being able to evolve to a better thing without going through the catastrophe phase that I think it's just nonexistence If so, what size a state is good in the sense like do we should we as a human society as this work, because more global, I should be constantly striving to reduce the set of you. We can. We can put on a map like right now, literally like this centres of power in the world. Some of them are tech companies. Some of them are governments should be trained As much as possible a decentralized the power towards very diverse the point on the map, the centres of power, and that means we can state. However, a bunch of different ways to make the government much smaller. That could be rude, reducing in the united

it's reducing the funding for government others causa things there said of responsibilities, the set of powers, it could be a meanness far out Making more nations maybe nations not in the space that defined by geographic location, but rather in the space of ideas, just what anarchy is about santa gives about forming collectives based on a set of ideas, and so dynamically, not based on what you were born and so on. I think we can say that the natural state of humans. If we want to describe such a thing, was to If in tribes, there were below the dunbar number, meaning that for the hundred thousand years of human history, all of the groups of you mostly state under that size and whenever would get up to that size, it would end up cleaving, and so it seems like there's a pretty strong,

but they want individual humans out in the wild, doing really well right. So we were of a group animal, but will groups that had it specific size, or we could say in a way things were being domesticated by those groups? They were learning how to have certain rules to participate with the group without which you get kicked out, but that that still the wild state of people and in may, its useful to do as a side statement which have recently looked at a bunch of pay at around dunbar's number, for the mean is actually one. Fifty, if you actually look at the original papers syringe, is really arrange. So it's actually some someone under a thousand This arrangement, like two to five hundred or whatever it is like you, get out that I think it actually is exact too, to the ranges two to five hundred and twenty from like that, and this is the mean it's taken crudely. Not a very good paper in terms of the actual numerical, numerically speaking, but it be interesting,

there's a bunch of dunbar numbers that could be computer for particular, invites with particular condition. So it is very true that they are likely to be something small. under a million, but it means your things expand that number in interesting ways that will change the fabric of this conversation. I just want to kind of throw that in there I dunno the if the one fifties baked in some how in the heart to the hardware. We can talk about some of the things that it probably has to do with up to a certain number of people this is going to be variable based on the social technologies that mediate it to some degree. We can talk about that in a minute and up to a certain number of people, everybody can know everybody else pretty intimately. So, let's gooden just take a hundred and fifty as a as an average number. Everybody can know everyone intimately enough that if your

and made any one else do poorly. It's your extended family and you're stuck living with them. You know who they are, and there is no anonymous. People is no just them in over there and that's one part of what leads to a kind of travel process. Well, it's good for the individual good, that a whole has a coupling also below that scale every This somewhat aware of what everybody else is doing. There's not grew, that are very, I and The result is actually very hard to get away with bad behaviour. There's a force kind of transparency, and you don't need kind of like the state and in that way, but lying to me. What does it actually get? Your head? Sociopath behaviour? Doesn't get you head because it get scene and so there the conditioning environment where the endeavour-

Oh baby, in a way that is aligned with the interests of the tribe is what gets conditioned when it gets to be a much larger system. It becomes easier to hide certain things. From the group as a whole, as well as to be less emotionally bound to a bunch of anonymous, people I would say, there's also a communication protocol where up to about that number of people we, it all sit around a tribal council and be part of a conversation around a really big decision. Do we migrate? Do we not migrate? Do we? You know some something like that? Do we get rid of this person and why? Why would I want to agree to be a part of a larger group where everyone can be part of that council, and so I m going to now be subject to law. I have no say, and if I could be part of a smaller group, they could still survive, and I get a say in the law that I'm subject, which I think the cleaving

In a way. We can look at it beyond the dunbar number two is we can look at that? A civilization has binding energy that holding them together and has cleaving energy, and if the binding energy exceeds the cleaving energy, that civilization will last answer. There are things that we can do to decrease the plea energy them society things we can do to increase the binding energy. I think. Naturally, we saw that had certain characteristics up to a certain size can travel, isn't that ended. with a few things had ended with people. Having migrated enough that when you start to get resource wars, if you could my great away easily and so travel were, where we can more obligate, it involved the plow from the beginning real economic surplus. There were two: there were a few different kind of forcing functions but We're talking about what's I should it be re, would say: should a society be, and I think the idea like if we about your body for a moment as us organizing complex system that is multi scaled with,

abilities wonderland body it is wonderland, yeah you feed that dumb ass. I apologise but so I've gotta butter, our body in the billions of cells there in it, we have like think about how ridiculous it would be to try to have all the tens of trillion cells in it with no internal organization structure righteousness did likewise a sea. protoplasmic what you're democracy, and so you have cells and tissues? and then you have tissues in organs and organs and organ systems in three of these layers of organization and then obviously be ended. a jewel and try been nay ecosystem and should the higher layers are both based on lower layers but also influencing them. I think the future of civilization will be similar, which is there's a level of governance that happens at the level of the individual. My own governance of my own choice I think there is a level that happens at the level of a family where

Making decisions together were enter influencing each other and affecting each other taking responsibility for the idea tended family, and you can see that, like for a lot of human history, we had an extended family. We had a local community, a local church or whatever was we have these intermediate structures whereas right now, this kind of like the individual producer, consumer taxpayer voter and the massive nation state global complex and not that much in the way of an yet structures that we relate with and not that much in the way of real personal dynamics. All impersonal, lized made fungible, and so I think that we have to have global governance, meaning. I think we have to have governance at the scale. We affects tough enough if anybody's up the oceans at matters for everybody, so that that can only be national or only local, everyone, esq

If the idea of global governance, because we think about some top down system of imposition that now has no checks and balances on power, I'm scared of that same versions have not talking about that kind of global governance. That's why I'm even using the word governance as a process rather than government as an imposed ah phenomena, So I think we have to have global governance, but I think we also have to have local governance and there has to be relationships between them that each where there are both checks Alan says empower flows of information, so I think governance at the level of cities will be a bigger deal in the future. Then governance at the low of nation states cause nation states are largely fictitious things that are defined by wars and agreements to stop oars. Unlike that, I think cities are based on real things, will keep being real or the proximity of certain things together. The physical proximity of things together gives in least value of those things. So you look like Jeffrey west's

work on scale and finding that companies and nation states and things that have it. A kind of complicated agreement structure get diminishing return of you of production per km as the total number of people increases beyond about the tribal scale, but the city actually gets increasing productivity per capita. But it's not designed it's kind of this organic thing. Re showed there should be governance at the level of cities, because people can sense and actually have some agency there, probably neighbourhoods and smile skills within it also vertical and some of it be geographic it'll, be network base rate networks of affinities, so I dont think the features one type of governance now what we can say more broadly as save when we're talking about groups of people in our affect each other, the do you have a civilization is that we can figure out how to coordinate our choice. Making too not be a war with each other and hopefully increase total productive capacity is good for everybody.

Of labour and specialities. So we all get more better staff in whatever, but it's a it's a coordination of choice, making I think we can look at civilizations, failing on the side of not having enough coordination of choice making to they fail in the sight of chaos, and then they clean and internal war comes about or whatever, or they can't make smart decisions and they over use their resources or whatever or it can ill on the side of trying to get order via imposition vii of force and fails on site of oppression. which ends up being for awhile functional an for the thing as a whole. Miserable for most people in it until it fails either because of revolt or because it can't innovate enough or something like that And so there's dislike toddling between order via oppression and chaos, and I think the idea of democracy not the way.

With implemented it. But the idea of it whether we're talking about representative democracy. You are a direct digital democracy, liquid democracy, o o republika. Whatever the idea of an open society, participatory governance, is ken have order that is emergent rather than imposed should that we aren't stuck with chaos, an inviting an inability to coordinate and were also not stuck with oppression, and what would it take to have emergent order, this is the most kind of central question for me these days, because if we look at what different nation states are doing around the world? And we see nation states that are more authoritarian. That in some ways are actually coordinating much more effectively so for it We can see that china has build high speed rail, not just through its country but around the world in the. U S hasn't built any high speed rail. Yet you can see that,

brought three hundred million people out of poverty and the time where we ve had increased economic inequality happening, you can see like that if there was a single country that could make all of its own stuff. If the global supply chains failed, China would be the closest one to being able to start to go closed loop on fundamental things, Belgian road initiative, supply chain on rare earth, metals, transistor manufacturing that used. I go there actually coordinating more effectively in some important ways in the last call it thirty or And that's imposed order imposed order and we can see that if in the u s, if no, let's look at why real, quick, We know why we created term limits so that we wouldn't have forever monarchs that's the thing we are to get away from that, there would be checks and balances on power, and that kind of thing, but that also has created it.

has a negative second order effect, which is nobody does long term planning because but he comes and he's got four years they want reelected. They don't do anything and create a return within four years, they will end up getting them elected, reelected and the thirty year, industrial development to build high speed trains or the new kind fusion, energy or whatever it is just, doesn't get invested in and then, if you have left versus right where, whenever someone does for four years in the other, guy gets in and undoes it for four years, and most of the energy goes into campaigning against each other. This system is just dissipating as heat ray like it's burning up as he and this. It has no term limits and no internal friction in fighting because they got rid of those people can actually coordinate better but

I would argue it has its own fail states eventually and disturbing properties. That are not the thing we want. This of the goes to accomplish to create a system that does the long term planning without the negative effects of a monarch dictator that stays there. For the long term. And accomplish that the through are not doing. The imposition was single leader but through emergent, so that doesn't that perhaps first about the technology itself seems to me. Maybe disagree. Allow for from possibilities here, which is make primary the system, not the humans, so the the basically the medium on which the

actually happens like like a platform where, where people can make decisions, do the choice making the coordination of the choice making, where emerges some kind of order to wear like something that applies at the scale of the family, the extended family, the city, the The country, the continent, the whole world does that so dynamically constantly changing, based on the needs of the people. For always evolving and you would all be owned by Google. Doesn't that doesn't this is there a way to arm so first saw you optimistic that even crazy create a technology can save us technology. creating platforms by technology me like software for network platforms that allows you, mr deliberate like make.

Government together dynamically without them for a leader, that's on a podium screaming stuff, that's one and two. If you're optimistic about that, I also optimistic about the seals of such platforms. the idea that technology is valued new ro values, agnostic it and people can use it for constructive reduced two purposes, but it doesn't predispose. Nothing is just not just silly knife technology elicits patterns of human behaviour because those who utilise it and get ahead in debating differently because of their illustration of it and then other people, then they end up saving the world or other people race to also get the power of the technology, and so this whole schools of interpol Gee that look at the effect on social, so sums in the minds of people of the change in toiling

marvin Harris's work called cultural materialism. Looked at this deeply odyssey at marshall, mcluhan, looked specifically at the way that information technologies change the nature of our beliefs, minds, values, social systems, and I will not try to do this rigorously because there are academics will disagree on the subtle details, but I ll do it kind of like illustrate you think the emergence of the plough, the ox drawn plough and the beginning of agriculture that came with it were before that you had hundred gather and then you had or culture kind of digging stick, but not the plow will do that. The world changed a lot with that raising and a few of the changes that medley? Some fierce believin is when the ox drawn plastered.

Well afraid, any culture that utilize it was able to start actually cultivate grain because, just with a digging sick, you couldn't get enough grain for it to matter grain was a storable caloric surplus. They could make it to the famines it could grow. Their populations are the ones that used it got so much ahead that it became obligate and everybody used it that responding with the use of a plough animism went away everywhere that it existed, because you can't talk about the spirit of the fellow well beating the cow all day, long to pull the plough moment that we do animal husbandry of that kind. We have to beat the cow all day. You have to say it's just a dumb animal man has dominion over earth and the nature of even our religious and spiritual ideas change. You went from in primarily using the diggings dick to do the horticulture or gathering for that men doing the hunting stuff too. Now men had to use to plough because the upper body string vex, you really mattered. Women would have miscarriages when they would do in their pregnant. So all the caloric supply still to come. men where it had been from both before and the ratio of male female gods changed being mostly male gods. Following that,

Obviously, we went from various that particular line of thought than also says that feminism followed the tractor And that the rise of feminism in the west phase started to follow women being able to say we can do what men can, because the mail or body strength wasn't differential. Once the internal combustion engine was much stronger, and we can drive a tractor, so I dont think to try to trace complex things to one cause is a good idea. So I think this is a reductionist view, but it has truth in it and so the idea that technology is values, agnostic, a silly technology codes patterns of behaviour, code rationalizing those patterns of behaviour and believing in them that the plow also is the beginning of the enterprising writers.

At the beginning of us changing the environment radically to to clear cut areas to just make them useful for people, which also meant the change of the view of where the the web of life were just a part of it cetera, so all those types of things and thus brilliantly put- but verbally she does just brilliant. But the question is see it's not stick. But so we have to look at what the psychological effects of specific tech applied. Certain ways are and be able to say it's not just doing the first order thing you intended it's doing like the act on patriarchy and animism and the if tribal culture in the beginning of empire and the class systems that came with that not like we can go on and on about what the clouded and the beginning of surplus was. The inheritance which the became the capital model and, like lots of things so We have to say when we're looking at the tec. How is what are the value

built into the way the tec is being built. That are not obvious right. You always have to consider a phenomenal. Yet this does not mean the externalities you're, not just physical to the environment, there also to how the people are being condition and how the relation reality between that has been. On this question, I am asking you so I personally would rather be led by applying a tractor than Stalin. Ok, that's the question I am asking is in creating an emergent government were people where there's a democracy that now make that makes choices that does governance adds at like a very cannot liquid, like there, a bunch of fine resolution, layers of abstraction, of governance happening at all scales. In doing so dynamically where no one person has power at one time, they dominate and impose rule

That's the stolen version was saying: isn't there the otter the isn't the alternative. That's emergent, empowered or made possible by the plough and the tree after, which is the modern version of that is like the internet. The digital space will weaken the monetary system. Will you have the and so on? But have much, more importantly, to demille, suggest basic social interaction, the mechanisms of human transacting each other and basic ideas isn't so? Yes, it's not agnostic. Daffing diagnostic, you ve had a brilliant red there, the tractor its effects, but isn't that the way which even emerges system of governance? Yes, but I wouldn't say we're on track with yemen

You may think promising, but other having seen thing promising is it to be on track, requires understanding and guiding some of the things differently than is currently happening in it's possible that Actually, what I really care about, so you couldn't have had a stolen without having certain technology, marge, he couldn't have ruled such a big area without transportation technologies, without the train without the communication tech that made it possible so when you say you'd rather have a tractor or plough than a stolen there's a relationship between them. That is more recursive, which is new physical technologies allow rulers to rule, more power over larger distances, historically, and but you something's and more responsible than others extolling also aids stuff for breakfast. But

think you for breakfast, is less responsible for the starvation of millions. Then then, the tree The train is more responsible for that and then no weapons of war, more responsible for some technology, let's not throw it all in the you're saying like technology really has a responsibility here, but some is better than others am saying that farm people's use of technology will change their behavior, so it has behaved you'll dispositions built in the change of the behaviour will also change the values and the society is very complicated, also, as a result, both make people who have different kinds of predispositions. With guard to ruler ship and different kinds of new capacities, and so we have to think about these things. It's kind of well understood that the printing press and then in early industrialism ended feudalism and created kind states, So one thing I would say as a long trend it that we can look.

Is that whenever there is in us a step function a major leap in technology, physical taken, gee, the underlying techno industrial base, with which we do stuff it ends up coding for and predisposing a whole bunch of human behaviour patterns that the previous social system. What had not emerge to try to solve? and so it usually ends at breaking the previous social systems. The way the plow broke, the tribal system, the way that the indus revolution broke, the feudal system and then new social systems have to emerge that can deal with that. The new powers, new dispositions wherever that tech obvious. Nuke broke nation states. And being adequate and had we can, We have that again. So then it created this in international governance apple. This world. So. I guess what I'm saying is dead.

the solution is not exponential tech. Following the current path of what the market incentivize is exponential tec to do market being previous social tech. I would say that exponential tech, if we look at different types of social tec, to legislate if we look at that democracy, tried to do the emergent order thing right at least that's the story and which is and this is why, if you look at this important partner- to build first, it's kind of doing it she's doing it poorly. You say I mean that's his emergent order, in some sense, amidst the hope of democracy versus other forms of government correct. I mean I, I said at least the story, because obviously it didn't do it

for women and slaves early on it doesn't die for all classes equally etc, but that the idea of democracy is that is participatory governance. answer. You notice that the modern democracies emerged out of the european enlightenment and specifically because the idea that a lot of people some huge- norman under tribal number huge number of anonymous people who don't know each other or not bonded to each other, who believe different things were opened ways can all work together to make collective decisions. Well that affect everybody and we're of them will make compromises in the thing that matters to them. For what matters to other strangers, it's actually wild like it's a. Why The idea that would even be possible- and it was kind of the reserve, This high enlightenment idea that we could all do the philosophy of science and we can all do the hague dialectic. Those ideas had emerged rate and it was that we we could all

so our choice making, because we said a society is trained to coordinate choice, making the emergent order as the order of art of the choices that we're making not just at the level of visuals, but what groups of individuals corporations nation states whenever do our choices are based on, we're making is based on our sense, making it our meaning making our sense What are we believe is happening in the world what do we believe the effects of a particular thing would be, are many meaning making? What do we care about? Read our values generation? Would we care about that? We're trying to move the world in the direction of if you, ultimately are trying to move the world in a direction that is really really different than the direction I'm trying to. We have very different values. We can have a hard time and Think the world is a very different world right. If you think that systemic Racism is ramp everywhere, one of the worst problems, and I think it's not even the thing, if you think I'm at changes almost existential, and I think it's not even the thing we're never really hard time coordinating.

and so we have to be able to have shared sense. Making of can we come to understand just what is happening together? and then can we do shared values generation. Ok, maybe I'm emphasising a particular value more than you, but I can see hallo. I can take your perspective and I can see the thing that you values worth valuing and I can see how its affected by thing. So can we take all the values and try to come up with the proposition that benefits all of them better than the proposal? I created just to benefit these ones. It harms the ones that you care about just why you're posing my proposition. We don't and try in the process of crafting a proposition currently to see- and this is the reason that the Opposition we vote on. It gets half the boat almost all the time it almost never gets. Ninety percent of the votes is because and if it some things and harms other things, we can say all theory of tradeoffs. We didn't, try to say. Could we see what nobody cares about and see if there is a better solution. So how do we fix that? True

I wonder, is it is it a simple? The social technology education will know its debts. The proposition crafting and refinement process has to be key to a democracy or a very Our government has in its not currently, but it is not the humans creating that situation thought so. One ways that the tourist ways as fix that as fixed individual humans, which is the education early in life, and the second is to create somehow systems that yet oath So I understand education part, but creating systems as britain. That's why I mentioned the technologies is creating a social network essential. Yes, that's actually necessary. Okay, so, let's go to the first part, no from the second per should mockery. See emerged as an enlightenment era, idea that we could all do a dialect, and come to understand what other people valued and so that we could actually come up with

cooperative solution rather than just fuck you we're going our thing in war right and that we could sense make together. We all play The philosophy of science and you weren't gonna, stick to your guns on what the speed of sound as if we measured it and we found out what it was and there's a unifying element to the objectivity in that way, and so This is why I believe Jefferson said, if you could give me a perfect newspaper, unbroken government or in paraphrasing are broken government Newspaper owen hesitate take the perfect newspaper, because if the people understand what's going on, they can make build a new government. If they don't understand, what's going on, they can't possibly make good choices and washington and paraphrasing again, first president's The number one aim of the federal government should be the comprehensive education of every citizen in the science of government science of governor, with the term of our think about what that meat trade signs of government would be gained? theory, coordination, theory, history, wooden called games, area,

ST sociology economics read all the things that lead to how we understand human coordination. I think it's so profound that he did say. The number one aim of the federal government is rule of law and he didn't say it's protecting the border from enemies because if the number one aim was to protect the border from enemies, it could do that military dictatorship quite effectively, and if the goal, was rule of law. It could do it as a dictatorship, as a police state. And so, if the number one goal is anything other than the comprehensive education of all the citizens in the science of government, a won't stay democracy law, you can see, show education and the fourth estate, the fourth estate being the show education. Can I make sense of the word to my train to make sense of the world. The fourth estate is what actually going on currently the news to have good, unbiased information about it. Those are both considered pre, requisite institutions for democracy to be a possibility.

And then at the scale. It was initially suggested here. The town hall was the key phenomena where there were and a special interest group craft proposition, and the first thing I ever saw was the proposition think about it. I got about yes or no, it was in the and how we all talk about in the proposition could be crafted in real time through the conversation, which is why there is that founding fathers statement that the voting is the death of tomorrow? voting fundamentalists, polarizing the population in some kind of sublimated war, but the and we'll do that is the law ass tat. But what we want to do, first, is to say how does the thing that you care about that seems damaged by this proposition? How could that turn into a solution to make this proposition better for this proposition? so tend to. The thing is trying to tend to intends to that better. Can we work on this together and that in a town, we can have that as the scale increased we lost the ability to do now, as you mentioned, the internet could change that. The fact that we had represent it had to write a horse from one town hall to the other, one to see what the colony would do, that we

start having this kind of develop mental propositional device, went process when the towel ended. The fact that we have not used internet to recreate this is somewhere between insane and aligned with class interests. Thou pushed back to say that the earth has those things is just as a lot of other things. If you like the internet has places were that encourage synthesis of competing ideas. And our sense making here's what we're talking about is just that it. Also flooded with a bunch of other systems that perhaps her out competing it under current and centres, perhaps has to do with capitalism and the market. is the lennoxes awesome, rape and wikipedia in places where you have and their problems but places we have open source.

Sharing of information, betting of information towards collective building is that building something like like how much has had affected our court systems or are policing systems or our military systems or arsenal. I think a lot, but not not enough. I I think, there's somebody until java Yesterday's, perhaps as all another discussion, but I dont think were quite clear, Fine. The impact on the world of the positive impact of wikipedia said the policing that any I just, I just think them. Of empathy. That lookup acknowledge, I think, can't help but lead to empathy. Knowing ok, just knowing ok I'll give you some pieces information, knowing how many

people died in various wars that already that delta, when you have millions of people have that knowledge? It's like it's a little like slap in the face like oh, like my, a friend or girl from breaking up with me is not such a big deal when millions of people tortured. You know, like just a little bit and when a lot of people know that, because it Wikipedia or would that be their second order factor with Wikipedia which is, if not the necessarily people read Wikipedia. It's like you to burn. You don't really knows stuff that well well, thoroughly Rita, Wikipedia article and create a compelling video describing what wikipedia article there. Then millions of people watch I understand that Holy shit allotted there was such a first of all. There is The thing is one were to another one: ok LISA learn about it. They can learn, about this was a recent economic slave.

the color about all kinds of injustices in the world indebted It has a lot of effects to r to the way whether europe, police officer, a lawyer. A judge and jury are just the regular civilian citizen. The way you approach the every other communication you engage in. Even if the system of that communication is very much flawed. I think there's a huge positive effect on Wikipedia, as my guess work be since you don't need to be there at a huge fan, but there are very few systems like it, which is said to me. So I think it's would be a useful exercise for any listener of the show to really try to run the dialectical synthesis process with regard to a topic like this and take the techno concerned, person,

active with regard to information tech that folks, like tristan Harris, take and say what are all of the things that are getting worse and what an hour any. Following an exponential curve and how much worse, how quickly could that be, and then, and do that fully without mitigating it then take the technology to miss perspective and see what things are getting better. in a way that cars well or diamonds, her someone might do and try to take that perspective alliance. Here, some of those things exponential look at that portend and then try to hold all that at the same time, and I think there, are ways in which, depending The metrics we're looking at things are getting, worse, on exponential curves and better on exponential curves for different metrics. At the same time, which which I hold is the destabilization of previous system,

and either an emergence to a better system or collapse to a lower order, are both possible? And so I want my optimism not to be about my assessment. I want my assessment to be just as fucking clear as it can be and want optimism to be what inspires the solution process on that clear assessment so never and everyone will play optimism in the sense making great. I want to just try to be clear. If anything, I want to make sure that the challenges are really well stood, but that's in service of an optimism that there are good put angels, even if I dont know what they are, that are worth seeking right, this kind of a There is some sense of optimism that required even try to innovate really hard problems, but then I wanted take my pessimism and red tee. My own optimism to see is

solution not gonna work. Does it have second order effects and then knock it not get upset by that, because I didn't come back to how to make it better, so they just really enjoy between optimism, pessimism in the dialectic of how they are, they can work so and I of course can say that wikipedia is a pretty awesome example of a thing we can look at the places where it has limits or failed where my muscles, eddie topic or core corporate interests topic you can pay with he d editors to edit more frequently in various things like that, but you can also see where there's a lot of information. There was kind of decentrally created. That is good information that is more easily accessible to people. Then everybody buying their own encyclopedia, Britannica or walking down to the library, and that can be data in real time faster, and I think you're very right that the business model is a big difference because wikipedia money for profit corporation,

is a its tending to the information comments and it doesn't have an agenda other than tending to the information comments, and I think, the Two masters issue is a tricky one: room train optimized for very different kinds of things: where I have to sacrifice one for the other, and I can't find synergistic satisfies, which one and, if I have a fiduciary response, billowy to shareholder profit, maximization and in what? What is that in creating I think the ad model that silicon valley took I think you're, a linear animal food had him on the show. But his interesting assessment of the nature of add model. in silicon valley wanting to support capitalism. Entrepreneurs to make things, but ah so the belief information should be free

Also, the network dynamics with more people you got on you got increase value per user per capita. More people got on seed in one do anything to slow the rate of adoption. Some places. Actually you don't pay pal, paying people Nature join the network because the value of the network would be Debbie, be met, catholic, dynamic cooper, from the square of the total number of users, so the admiral made sense of how do we make it free, but also be a business, get everybody on, but not really thinking. What it would mean to end It is now the whole idea that, if you are paying for the product, you are the product, if the, if they have a producer responsibility to their shareholder maximum profit, their customers, the advertiser, the user who is being built forest

do do behavioral mod for them for advertisers. That's a whole different thing than that same type of tech could have been if applied with a different business model or different purpose, and I think there she, because facebook and google and other information communication platforms and harvesting data about user behaviour that allows them to model with the people are in a way to, the more sometimes specific information and behavioral information dan a therapist or a doctor or a lawyer or a priest, might have an indifferent setting. They basically are accessing privileged information. There should be a fiduciary responsibility In normal fiduciary law, if there's this principle agents If you are a Principle and I'm an agent on your behalf, I dont have a game, theoretic relationship with you right. If your sharing something with me and I'm the priest ram the therapies.

Never gonna use that information to try to sell you a used car or whatever the thing is, but facebook is gathering massive amounts of privileged information and using it to modify people's behaviour for maybe the bay didn't sign up for wanting the behavior, but what the corporation, and so I think, This is an example of the physical tack evolving. In the context of the previous social tech, where its being shaped, in particular ways and hear, unlike Wikipedia that involve for thee. The info. Certain comments, this of all for fulfilling Take your agenda purpose. Most people in their on facebook think it's just a tool that they're using they don't realize it's an agent writers cooperation with a profit motive, and- and as I mentioned with it, it has a goal for me different than my goal for myself and I might want to be on for a short period of time. It's goal is maximize time on site, and so there is a rivalry that is take, but where there should be a fiduciary contract. I think that's actually a huge deal

and I think, if we said, could we apply facebook like technology to develop people's citizen re capacity right to develop their personal health and well being and habits as well as their cod of understanding the complexity with which they can process there their relationships, that would be amazing to start to explore, and this is now the thesis that we started to discuss before is every time there is a major step function in the physical tech. It obsolete the previous social tack and the new social tat castro merge what I would says that when we look at the nation state level of the world today, the more talk an authoritarian nation states are, as the exponential text started to emerge, the digital technology started to emerge. They were

a position for better long term planning and better coordination and so the rotarian states started applying the exponential tech intentionally to make more effective authoritarian states, and that's everything, some, like internet of things, surveillance system going into me, learning systems to the sesame credit system to all those types of things. And so there grading their social tech using the exponential tech, otherwise within the nation state like the: u s but democratic, open societies. This the countries. The states are not directing the technology in a way that makes a better open society, meaning better emergent order. There saying the corporations are doing that and the state is doing the relish little thing it would do aligned with the previous corporate law that no longer as relevant. There wasn't fiduciary responsibility for things like that. There was an anti trust because this creates from for monopolies because of network dynamics right where you tube has more use

and demi on every other video player together. Amazon has a bigger percentage of market share than all of the other markets. Together, you get one big dog per vertical because of net a fact which is a kind of organic monopoly that the previous antitrust law didn't even have a place that wasn't the thing that anti monopoly was only something that emerged in the space of government contracts. So So what we see as the new exponential technology is being directed by authoritarian nation states to make better authoritarian nation states and by corporations to make more powerful corporations powerful corporations when we think about the scottish enlightenment, when the idea of markets was being advanced. The modern kind of ideas markets, the biggest. Preparation with tiny camps, to a dubious corporation today as to the asymmetry of it relative to people with tiny.

And the cemetery. Now in terms of the total technology, it employs total amount of money. Total amount of information processing is so many orders of magnitude and rather then there'd be demand for an authentic thing that creates a basis for supply as I started to get way more coordinated and powerful and the demand wasn't coordinate cause you don't have a labor union of all the customers working together, but you do have a coordination on the supply side. Supply started to recognize that it could manufacture demand. It could make people want shit that they what before that? Maybe wooden increase their happiness, in a meaningful way might increase addiction addiction a very good way to manufacture demand and show as soon as manufactured demand started through. This is the cool thing and you Have it for status or whatever? It is the entire? into the market was breaking now no longer collective intelligence system that is up regulating real desire, for,

things that are really meaningful, you're able to hijack the lower angels of our nature rather than the higher ones the addictive patterns, DR those and have people want it. That does not make them happy or make the world better. and so we really also have to. We have to update our theory of markets, because behavioral econ showed the homo economic ass. The rational actor is not really a thing, but particularly greater and greater scale can really be a thing: voluntarism, the thing where, if my corp, if my company doesn't want to advertise on facebook, I just will lose to the companies that do cause. That's where all the fuckin attention is, and so, I can say its voluntary, but it's not really affairs a functional monopoly. if I'm gonna sell on amazon or things like that. So what I would say is that these corporations are becoming more power, for the nation states in some ways and they are also debasing the integrity of the nation states. The open

societies so that democracies are getting weaker as a result of exponential tech and the and knew tat companies that kind of a new feudalism tech feudalism, kiss it's thought a democracy inside of a tech company. or the supply and demand relationship when you have manufactured demand and kind of monopoly type functions So we have basically a new feudalism controlling exponential tech and authoritarian nation states. Controlling it and those detractors are both shitty ends. I'm interested in the application of exponential tech too, making better social tech that makes emergent order possible and were then that emergent order combined and direct the exponential tech in fundamentally Healthy, not ex risk oriented directions. I think there were ship of social tack and physical tech can make it. I think we can actually use the physical tat to make better social tack, but is not given that we do. If we don't move better social tech, then I think the fish.

Attack empowers really shitty social, take. That is on a world that we want an office the road you wanna go down, but I tend to believe that the market will create exactly the thing you're talking about which I feel like there's a lot of money to be made in creating us social tech that creates about a citizen. I created better human being that this, the the your description of facebook and so on, which is a system that creates addiction which manufactures demand, is not obviously inherently the consequence of the markets like. I feel like that. The first stage of us, like baby dear trying to figure out how to use the internet, I feel like theirs

Much more might be made with something that creates compulsion and love. Honestly, we I dive really from we can have this. I can make the business case for it. I love. I was a good one. I really have the discussion, but don't do have some hope that that's the case in a word, I guess, if not, then how do we fix the system, a market that works so well for? save for so long. Like I said, every social tech worked for a while, like tribalism worked well for two or three hundred thousand years. I think social tech has to keep evolving. The social technologies with which we organise and coordinate our behaviour have to keep evolving as our physical tech does. So I think The thing that we call markets, course we can try to say. Oh even biology runs on markets in, but the thing tat we call markets

the underlying theory. Homo economic is demand, driving supply that thing broke. It broke with scale in particular, and a few other things. so it needs updated and really fundamental way I think there's something even deeper than making money happening that it in some ways will obsolete moneymaking. I think cap The lesson is not about business, so if you think about business, I'm going produce a good or a service that people want and bring it to the market to the people, get access to that good or service. That's the world of business, but that's not capitalism, capitalism is the management and allocation of capital, which, financial services was? A tiny percentage of the total market has become a huge percentage of the total markets, a different creature. So if I

was in business. And I was producing good or service, and I was saving up enough money that I started to be able to invest that money and gain interest, or do things like that. As a start, I'm making more money on my money that I'm making on producing the goods and services. So I stop even paying attention to goods and services are paying attention to make money on money and how why utilise capital to create more capital and captain Give me more options. Validate can buy anything with it, then a particular gutter service. It only some people want capitalism. more capital ended up, meaning more control. I could put more people you're my employment. I could buy larger pieces of black, novel access to resource mines and put more technology under my employment to mint meant increased agency and also increase control. I

attention. Wisdom is even more powerful so, rather than enslaved, people where the people kind of always want to get away and put in the least work. They can there's a way in which economic servitude was just more profitable than slavery. Rightly, have the people work even harder voluntarily because they want to get ahead and nobody has to be there to whip them or control them or whatever. This is as a cynical to take, but it a meaningful take em, so people so capital into being away to influence human behavior, rent and yet. Where people still feel free in some meaningful way. They they're not feeling like gonna be punished by the state if they don't do something

it's like punished by the market, be a homelessness or something but the market. Is this invisible thing I can't put an agent on so it feels like free, and so, if, if you want to affect people's behavior and still have then feel free capital into being awaited. Do that, but I think affecting their attention is even deeper, because if I can affect their attention, I can both effect what they want and what they believe and what they feel, and we statistically know this very clearly. Facebook has done studies that, based on changing the feed, it can change belief, Simone dispositions etc, and so I think, there's a way that be the harvest in directing of attention is even a more powerful system than capitalism it effective in capitalism to generate capital, but I think it also generates influence beyond what capital can do. And so do I

want to have some groups to utilizing that type of tact direct other people's attention, if so towards what towards what metrics of what a good civilization and good human life would be. What's the oversight process, what is the transparency I can they get cancer. All the things you mentioning I got can build a guarantee. If I m not such a lazy ass, be part of the many people doing this as transparency and control I get to giving control in visual peep, okay, so maybe the corporation as coordination on its goals did all of it, mercer users together, don't have so there's some a cemetery words. Ah, a cemetery of schools, but maybe I could actually help all of the customers to coordinate

almost like a labour union or whatever, by informing and educating them adequately about the effects the x, analyses on them at this is not toxic waste going into ocean of atmosphere, its them, their minds are beings or families are relationships such that they well in group change. Their behaviour and I think the aid one way of saying what you're saying I think is that you think that you can rescue homo. I can marcus from there were rational actor that will pursue all the goods and services and choose the best one at the best price. That kind of rand von misses high iq that you can rescue that from Dan ariely and behavioral econ. That says, that's actually not how people make choices they make it based on status, hacking, largely whether it's good for them or not in the long term and that large asymmetric corporate. You can run propaganda

of warfare that hits people's status buttons and their limburg hijacks in their lots of other things in ways that they can't even perceive that are happening They are not paying attention to that. The site is employing psychologists and split testing, and whatever else so you're saying I think we can recover homework and ask is enough through a single like mechanism, technology, the stairs the knotted give mentioned the guy, but plan I got your progress on that then make help make viral the ways that The education of negative externalities can become viral in this world, so in fleetingly. I actually agree with you that, got em that we warn and a half hours why can't I can do some good, was you you're talking about is the application of tat care. Broadcast tech, where you can

speak to a lot of people and that's not gonna, be strong enough, different people need spoken to differently, which means it has to be different voices they get amplified to. Those audience is more like facebook stack, but nonetheless restarted broadcasting plus the first he then than the word of mouth is a powerful thing. You need to do the first broadcast shot gun and then it like lands catapulted whatever at no great weapon is, but then it just spread. The word to all kinds attack, including facebook. So let us come back to the fundamental thing. The fundamental thing is: we want a kind of order at various scales from the conflicting parties. our self actually having more harmony? Then they might have to face the extended family local, all the way up to global we want emergent order where our choices. have more alignment rain. We want to be emergent rather than imposed- or rather

then we want fundamentally different. Things remain totally different sense of the world where warfare, Some kind becomes only solution. Emergent order requires us in our choice. Making requires being able to have related making and related meaning making processes. Can we apply digits technologies and exponential tech in general to try to increase the capacity to do that where the technology called a town hall, the social take that we'd all get together and talk of this he is very scale limited and it's also oriented to gr. If he rather than networks of aligned interest, can we be New, better versions of this type, two things and going back to them the idea that a democracy or participatory governance depends upon comprehend. Education in the science of government, which include being able to understand things like asymmetric information, warfare on the site of governments and how the people can organise adequately,

Can you utilise some of the technologies now to be able to support increased comprehensive education of the people and may be comprehensive, informed this so both fixing the decay in both education in the fourth estate that have happened so that people can start self organizing too then influence the corporal actions the nation states to do different things and or build new ones themselves, fundamentally, that something that has to happen. We, the exponential, that gives us a novel problem. Landscape did the world never had. The nuke gave us a novel problem landscape until that required this whole bretton woods world. The exponential tat gives us novel problem. Landscape are existing power. solving processes, aren't doing a good job. We have had more Please get nukes, we haven't a nuclear proliferation. We haven't achieved any of the. U n sustainable development goals we haven't.

Any of the new categories of tech for making arms race or global coordination is not adequate to that problem landscape. So we need phenomenal better problem, solving processes, a market or a state as a problem solving process. We need better ones, it can do the speed and scale of the current issues right now, speed is one of the other big things is that by the time, regulated, ddt out of existence or cigarettes, not for people under eighteen that already killed so many people, and we let the market do the thing, but, as a has made the point that won't work for I by the time we recognise afterwards that we have politically, I that's a problem. You won't be able to reverse it that there's a number of things that, when you're dealing with that is either self replicating and dissent idiot humans to keep going, doesn't need humans are keeping, or you have tech that just has exponentially fast effects. Your regulation has to come early. They can't come after the

effective happened. The negative effects have happened if, because any of ex could be too big to quickly so we basically need problem, solving processes that do better at being able to internalize externalities solve the problems. Right timescale and the right geographic scale and those new processes to not be imposed, have to emerge from people wanting them and being able to dissipate in their development, which is what I would call and of a new cultural enlightenment, a renaissance that has to happen where people start understanding The new power, the exponential tech offers, the way that it is actually damaging current government structures that we care about, and creating an ex risk landscape, but could also be redirected towards more topic purposes and then

thing how do we rebuild a new social institutions? What are adequate social institutions where we can do participatory governance at scale in time, and how can the people actually participate to build those things? I there. The solution that I see working requires a process like that and their results. Maximizes love, so again, eli right! That love is the answer. Let me take you back from the scale societies, the scale this far far more important, which is the scale of la family you ve written pursued by your dad. Wherever very flavors. Their relationships with our fathers What have you learned about life when you dead? Well, people can read the blog posts than see a lot of individual things that I learned that I really pay

It has a kind of summarize at a high level, really incredible dad. Very, very unusually positive, set of experiences. He was committed. We were homes gold in the committed to work from home to be available and like prioritize father in a really deeply You know as a super gifted super love, very unique man. He also had his unique issues that were part of a crafted. The unique brilliance and those things often go together and I say that because I think I had had some unusual gifts and also some unusual difficulties, and I think it's useful for everybody to know their path probably has both of those. But if I was to say kind of the essence,

One of the things my dad taught me across a lot of lessons was like a the intersection of self empowerment, ideas and practices that self empower towards collective good, or some virtuous purpose beyond the self, and he both said that a million different ways taught it in them million different ways when we're doing construction- and he was teaching me how to build a house. We were putting the wire to the walls before the dry went on. He made sure that the way that we put the wires to his beautiful, like that that there height of the holes, was somewhere that we twisted the wires in a particular way that, and it's like knowing ever gonna, see it and he's like if a jobs worse. It's worth doing well and excellence as its own reward and those types of ideas, and if there is a really shitty job to do it's I see the job. Do the job stand of the misery, just don't indulge any negativity, do the things that need them, and so there's like I

there's, an empowerment and nobility together, and yeah mood, extraordinarily fortunate as their ways. You think he could have been better son there things you regret interesting question. Let me first say just as a The criticism that what kind of man do you think you are now a suit and tie your man exactly. I agree with your dad on that point: invention of wine that guy he suggested a real you were soon die, but I am delighted that is always good

in a better son. Maybe next time on your show, where a certain time batman data be happy about that. I'm that please I can answer the question later. in life not early, and I had just a huge amount of respect and reverence for my dad when I was young. So I was asking myself that question a lot, so I warned a lot of things. Hey knew that I wasn't seeking to apply and. There was a phase when I went through my kind of individuation differentiation where I had to he can excessively wrong about too many things? I don't, had you, but I did

and he had a lot a kind of non standard model beliefs about things. Whether early. Can an ancient civilizations or ideas on evolutionary theory or alternate models of physics, and and and and. They weren't irrational, but they did not have the standard of epistemic proof that I would need and I went through And some of my kind of spiritual it is well. I went through a fake, in my early twenties, where I kind of had did the attitude that Dawkins christopher kitchens has that can then be em like xx simply certain sanctimonious ah applying their reductionist for.

If science, everything and I'm gonna brutally dismissive. Ah I'm embarrassed by their face. Not say anything about those men in their path, but for myself ends during that time. I was more just massive of my dad's epistemological, then I would have liked to have been. I got a correct that later apologize for it, but that's the first on the king. Might you ve written the following? I have had the experience countless times making love watching, a sunset listening to music feeling the breeze outward sign up for this whole life in all of its pains just to experience this exact moment This is a kind of worthless knowing it

it's important and real truth. I know that experience itself is infinitely meaningful and pain is temporary and seen. Clearly even the suffering is filled with beauty, had experienced countless lies worth a moment's worthy of life, such an unreasonable fortune. Few words of gratitude from you beautifully written deserves some beautiful moments. I never experience countless eyes worth of those moments. Bizarre some things that down if you could die. in your darker moments. You can go to jerry lived her mind yourself, that the whole right is worthwhile. It escaped to making love part. There I mean I I feel I feel unreasonably fortunate.

but it is a sad the human guest list because Matthew fortunate to have like had exposure to practices and philosophies and way of seeing things it makes me see things that way, so I can take responsibly for seeing things that in that way and not taking for granted really wonderful things, but I can't take credit for being exposed to the philosophies that even gave me that possibility- and you know it's not just with my wife. It's. with every person who I really love when we're talking. I look at their face a in the context of a common asian feel overwhelmed by how lucky to get to know them and like that, there's never been someone like them in all of history and there never. we'll begin and end. They might be gone tomorrow and I began to aren't like I get this moment with them and when you take in the union None of that fully in the book

of have it is overwhelmingly beautiful and remember the first time I did a big dose of mushrooms and I was looking at a tree for a long time, and I was just crying with overwhelming how beautiful the tree was- and it was a tree outside the front of my house- that I'd walk by a million times and never looked at like this, and it wasn't the dose of mushrooms were I was hallucinating like where the tree was purple like the trees to look like, if I described it. Green has leaves, looks like this is why he's fucking more beautiful, like ass, like capturing Then it normally was not like. Why is it so beautiful her describe it the same way, and they reza had no Take me anywhere else like it. What it seemed

The mushrooms were doing was just actually shutting the narrative off. That would have me be distracted, so I could really see the tree. Then I'm like fuck when I get off these mushrooms are going to practicing the tree, because it's always that beautiful and I just miss it and I practice being with it and quieting the rest, the mind and then How, and if is not mushrooms like people have peak experiences where those sea life and how credible, as is always there is funny that I had this exacting experience. And quite a lot of mushrooms just sitting alone and look a tree and exactly as you described it appreciating the view on this started. Beauty of it is to me that the here's to humans very differently very different journeys or at some moment in time. Both look, like idiots four hours can just in awe and unhappy be alive, and yet you and just that moment alone is as worth living for, but you did say humans

and a moment together to humans well, I have to ask what the looking when I to go get a smoothly before coming. Here I got you It is money that you didn't want cause you're, not just kido but fasting, but I saw them thing with you in your dad, were you did shots together, and this place happened to have shots of em? ginger turmeric cayenne. juice of some kind, until I was some heavily and save the planet for being on the show, I just brought it while we can. We can do it, though I think we're shit, who shall la rochelle toasts like heroes. Data is the huge honours too will return to. We tell us to this moment this this unique moment that we get the share together. I am very grateful to you in this moment with the end, yeah gratefully and bade me were met for the first time.

And I will never be the same. For the good and bad time. That is really interesting. That feels way. Healthier than the vodka meda- and I were drinking I so I, like. A better men already Daniel. This is one of the best commonplaces I've ever had my camera. I have many more likewise says. Amazing spare thinking for waiting all your time today. I want to say in terms of william mentioning about like, though, that you work and machine learning and the optimism that one to look at the issues, but wants to look at how this increase technological power could be applied to solving them and that even thinking the broadcast of like. Can I help you understand issues better and help organise them like fundamentally you're your oriented like Wikipedia what I see two really

I too tend to the information commons without another agent and interest distorting it, and for you to be Will they get guys like lee small and roger penrose, unlike the that the greatest thinkers of litter alive, end have among the show and must be would never be exposed to them. And talk about it in a way that people can understand things? incredible service, I think you're doing great work, so I was really happy to hear from you. Thank you and thanks for listening to his conversation with Daniel, she mocked hamburger and thank you to ground news net suite for semantic magic spoon and better help check them out in the district and to support the spy glass and now let me leave you some words from albert einstein. I know not with what weapons world war three will be fought by world were for will be fought with sticks and stones. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next.