The following is a conversation with Jeremy. Sorry, a historian, a uti austin, research interests and writing are on modern american history, with an eye towards president's, and in general individuals who wielded power. Quick question of our sponsors element. Monk pack bell campo, forcing matic and eight sleep check them out in a description to support this package at the side. No, let me say that, in these conversations for better or worse, I seek understanding not activism, I'm not left nor right. I love ideas, not labels and most saying ideas are full of uncertainty, tension and tradeoff labels destroy that I tried ds out, let them breathe for time, try to challenge splore and analyze, but mostly, I trust the intelligence of you. The listener to think and to make up your mind together.

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You studied many american presence throughout history, so who do you think was the greatest president in american history. The greatest american president was Abraham. Lincoln and tolstoy reflected on this himself actually saying when he was in the caucasus. He asked these peasants in the caucasus, who was the greatest man in the world that they had heard of, and they said Abraham lincoln and why, while because he gave voice to people who have no voice before he turned politics into an art. This is what time, dr recounted the peasants in the caucasus. Tellin him lincoln made politics more than about power. He made it an art, he made it a source of liberation and I was living even far from the united states could see that model that inspiration from lincoln He was a man who had two years of education. It he mastered the english language and he

is the language to help people? Imagine a different kind of world you silly and presidents are at their best when they do more than just manipulating institutions and power when their helping the people imagine a better world, and he did that as no other president ass. and you say he gave he gave voice to those who are voiceless. Who are you can do about in general. Is this about after americans? There is this about just the populace and general certain part of it is about slaves, african americans and many immigrants, immigrants from open of europe and other areas that have come to united states but part of it, just for ordinary american citizens. The republican party for which lincoln was the first president, was a party create to give voice to poor white men as well as slaves and others and lincoln was a poor white man himself grew up without slaves and without land, which meant you had almost nothing. Would you think about the trajectory

a man with only two years of education is there. Something we set about. How does one come from nothing and nurture the ideals that kind of make this country great interest thing where you can actually, the leader of this nation to Esparza, The idea is to give the voice voice to the voiceless. Yes, I think I think you actually hit the nail on the head. I think what he represented was the opportunity, and that was the word that mattered for him paternity. That came from the ability to raise yourself up to work hard and to be compensated for your hard work, and this is at the core where the republican party of the nineteenth century, which is the core of capitalism aside by getting rich. It Getting compensated for your work, it's about being incentivize to do better work and lincoln was constantly striving. One of his closest associates. Herndon said he.

Is the little engine of ambition that couldn't stop. He drips just kept going taught himself to read, taught himself to be a lawyer. He went through many failed businesses before he even reached that point. Many failed love affairs and but he kept trying he kept working and what american society offered him and what he wanted american society to offer. Every one else was the opportunity to keep trying to fail and then get up, and try again will you think was the nature that ambition was there, hunger for power. I think lincoln, had a hunger for success. I think he had a hunger to get out of the poor station he was in the hunger to be someone who had control over his life? Freedom for him didn't I mean the right to do anything you want to do, but it meant the right to be secure from being dependent upon some one else so independent He writes in his letters when he's very young that he hated being depend. And on his father he grew up without a mother, his father.

Struggling farmer and he would right, in his letters at his father, treated him like a slave on the farm. Some think his hatred of slavery came from that experience He d never want to have to work for someone again. He wanted to be free, and- and and in he wanted again every american. This is the kind of jeffersonian dream to be the owner of themself and the owner of their future. You know that's a really nice definition of freedom. We often think kind of very abstract, notion of being able to do anything you want, but really is ultimately breaking yourself free from the constraints like the very tight dependence on whether these to or on the family or the expectation. Ans. Are the community whatever be be able to be to realise yourself within constraints of young abilities. It's still not true, freedom is true. Freedom is probably sort of

it's like designing a video game characters like that. I agree. I think I think that's exactly right. I think freedom is not that I can have any outcome. I want. I can't control outcomes, the most powerful freest person in the world cannot control outcomes, but it means at least I get to make choices. Someone else doesn't make those choices for me Is there something to be said about lincoln and on the political game front of it, which is he's accomplish some of them? I dunno, but it seems like there is some tricky part is going on. We tend to not think of. in those terms because of the dark aspects of slavery we tend to. The body of ethical in human terms, but in at in their time it was probably as much a game of politics just these broad questions of human nature is, it was a game preserves something

we set about being a skilful play, the game of politics that you'd take from lincoln absolutely and am link. Never read Karl VON closets, the great had nineteenth century german thinker on strategy in politics, but but he embody the same wisdom, which is that everything is politics. I want to get anything done. And this includes even relationships that there's a politics to it. What does that mean It means that you, you have to persuade coerce, encourage people to do things that would otherwise do lincoln lincoln was a master at that he was a master there for tourists. he had learned through his hard life to read people to anticipate them to spend a lot of time Saying one thing I often tell people is the best leaders or the listeners, not the talkers. And then second and lincoln was very thoughtful and planned every move out. He was thinking three or four.

it was maybe five moves down the chessboard, while others were at boom that move number one or two thus fascinating. To think about him. Just listening to studying that, sir, you know they, they they look great fighters in this way, like the first few around the boxing and mix martial arts. Yours studying the movement of your parliament and in order to survive that define the holes as that's ruling shining frame to think about it? It is there in terms of relationships. The word you, you think as president or as a politician is the most impact be head of been reading. A lot about hitler recently and one of a more modern starting to wonder what the hell Did he do alone in a room with a one on one with people, because it seems like that's where he was exceptionally effective. When I, when I think about certain leaders, I'm not sure Stalin was this way,

Ah jazz been very obsessed with easy over this period of human history. It jesse like certain leaders, extremely effective one on one little thing of hitler, in lincoln as speech maker as a great charismatic speech maker, but it soon like to me that some of these guys were really effective inside a room, and would you think what's more important here effect in this, too, are to make a hell of a gun speech serbian in a room with many people or is it all, boils down to one will, I think, in a sense its both one needs to do both in most politicians leaders are better at one or the other. It's the rarer leader who can do both. I will say that, If you are going to be a figure who's, a president or the leader of a complex organization, not a startup, but a complex organization where you have many different constituencies and many different interests. Ah you

to do the one at one really. Well, because a lot of what Going to happen is you're going to be meeting with people who represent different groups right, the leader of the labor as the leader of the or investing board, etc, and you have to be able to persuade them, and it's the intangibles that often matter most link in skill, and it's the same that FDR had and is the ability to tell a story. I think hitler was all different, but I'm I'm what I've read of Stalin as he was a storyteller to one on one story: yeah that might my understanding. that he he had and what lincoln did? I do want to compare like to start by linking there is he he was not confrontational. He was happy to have an argument if an argument were to be had, but actually what he would try. they do is move you through telling a story that got you to think about your position in a different way to basically disarm you and frankly, rosville did the same thing. Ronald Reagan did the same thing. Storytelling is a very important skill,

it's almost heartbreaking: it we don't get to have our man correct me if I'm wrong on this, but it feels we don't have a lot of information. How of these folks were in private ones, on conversations, even if we get like stories about it, it's like again side to bring up hitler, but like People have talked about his piercing gaze, no one on one like there's a feeling. Like he's just looking through I wonder like it makes you wonder, was lincoln somebody who's but more passive, like whose more quickly You go doesnt shies that, like an overwhelming thing or more like again, don't bring controversial figures, Donald trump ports, more menacing right more like physically menacing thing, or it's almost like I'm sick of bullying dynamics. I wonder I wish

I wish we knew how I wished cause. It is from a psychological perspective. I wonder if there's a thread that connects most great leaders question, and so I think the best writer on this is max weber's right and he talks about the the power of charisma that the term charisma comes from vapor right and Weber's use of it actually to talk about prophets, and I think he has a point right. Leaders who are effective in the way you describe are leaders who feel prophetic or vapor says they have a kind of magic about them, and I think that can come from different wishes. I think they can come that can come from the way. Someone carries themselves that can come from the way they use words. So maybe there are different kinds of magic that that that someone develops, but I think there is two things that that seemed to be absolutely necessary. First, is you have to be someone who sizes up the person on the other side of the table? You cannot be the person who just comes in and read your brief and then second, I think it's interactive and there is a quickness of thought so

brought up donald trump. I don't lay down from his deep thank you at all, but is quick, and I think that quickness is part of its different from from delivering electorate words. The depth of your thought. Can you for forty five minutes and analyze something many people can't do that, but they still might be very effective if their able to quickly we act size up the person on the other side of the table and act in a way that moves that person and the way they want to move them yeah and and there's also just the coupled with the quickness- is a kind of instinct about human nature, just sort of asking the question: what does this person worry about What is it one of the biggest problems, somebody? What is his jewish horsemen said to me- is that this business man had at it you said like what I've always try to do is try to figure out. They ask enough questions to figure out. What is the biggest problem in this person's life? Try to get a sense,

what is the biggest problem in their life, because that's actually what they care about most and most people don't care enough to find out, and so he kind of wants the a sneak up on that rare in and find that and then use that and build closeness. In order to then, probably he doesn't put in those words but to manipulate the person into whatever should do whatever the heck they want, and I think I think part of a part of it is that and part of the effect that donald trump has is how quick he is able to figured that out. You were written a book about how the roar in power the presidency has changed. So has, however, they changed since lincoln's time the evolution of the present see as a concept, which seems like a fascinating lens through wish to look at american history is a president. We seem to be talking about the present

it may be a general here and there, but it's mostly the the story of america's often told through president's that's right, that's right, and One of the points I have tried to make in my writing about this and in various other activities, is we. this word president, as if something timeless, but the office is changed incredibly, it had just than in link from lincoln's time of the present, which is one hundred and fifty years he wouldn't recognise the office today and george Washington would not have recognized it in lincoln. Just as I think, a ceo today would be unrecognizable to a rockefeller or carnegie of a hunter fifty years ago. So what are some of the ways in which the office is change? Of others pointed three. There are a lot one presents now can communicate with the public directly May we reach the point now, where president can have direct almost one eye. One communication president can use twitter if he so chooses to sir event all media.

Was unthinkable, lincoln and already at his message across often wrote letters to newspapers and waited newspaper horace greeley in the new york tribune, to publish his little that's how we communicated with the public the warrant even many speaking opportunity. So that's a big change right now we ve Will the president in our life much more? That's why we talk about him much more the a burden is the second point presents under a microscope presence. are microscope. You have to be very careful what you do, what you say in your judged by a lot of the elements of your behaviour that are not policy relevant. In fact, the things we judge most and make most of her decisions on about individuals are often that and then third, the power. The president has its inhuman actually as one my critiques, oh how the office is. Jesus. One person has power on a scale. That's that's, I think dangerous. In a democracy and certainly something the fao. there's two hundred and twenty years ago, that trouble conceiving presents now of the

ready to deliver force across the world it to literally assassinate people with a remarkable accuracy. and that's an enormous power. The president's have the year since this is not to get conspiratorial, but do you think president curly has the power to you know initiate the assassination of somebody of a political enemy who are elected, terrorist leader. That kind of thing to to frame a person in a way where assassination is something that he alone or she alone could decide to do? I think it happens all the time and it's not to be conspiratorial. This is how we fought terrorism. By targeting individuals. Now you may cities were not elected leaders of state, but these were individuals with the large following I mean the killing of osama bin laden was was sazen asian operation, and we we ve taken out very successfully many

leaders of terrorist organisations and and we do it every day, You're saying that back and link is time. George Washington's time there is more of a balance of power like us, where president could not initiate this kind of assassination correct, I think president's did not have the same kind of military or economic power. We could talk about how a present can influence a market right by saying something printed about where money is gonna, go or singling out a company or critiquing accompany in one way or another. They don't have that kind of power. No much prep power that a lincoln or a washington had was the powers. Mobilise people too then make their own decisions. At the start. This civil war or lincoln doesn't even have the power to bring people into the army. He has to go to the governors and asked the governors to provide soldiers, so the governor of wisconsin, the governor massachusetts, could you imagine at it so they used speeches and words to mobilise verses, direct action,

closed door environments. Initiating wars, for example, correct is difficult to think about if you look a obama, for example this. If you, the thing to this a year in the left or the right, but please do not make this political impact if your political person and you're getting angry at the mention of the word obama or down trump. Please turn off. This pocketed a little cedar, we're not gonna get very far. I hope we maintain a political discussion. even the modern president's that viewed through lines of history. I think there's a lot to be learnt about about the office in about human nature. Some people criticise Barack Obama from what sort of expanding the that military industrial complex in aging and more and more wars, as opposed to serve the

initial rhetoric was such that we would pull back from sort of be more sceptical in our decisions to wage wars said from the lens of the power of the presidency. Has the money our presidency, the fact that we continue the war in afghanistan differ engagements in military conflicts. Do you think Barack Obama could of stop that? Do you put the responsibility and that expansion and him because of the implied power that the presidency has or this power just sits there and if the president chooses to take it, they do and if they don't, they dont almost like you, don't want to get take on responsibility because of the burden of their responsibly so a lot of my researches about this exact question, not just with obama and

My conclusion, I think the research is pretty clear on this. Is that structure has a lot more effect on us than we like to admit, which is to say that this from stances, the institutions around us drive our behaviour more than we like to think so Barack Obama, I'm quite certain, came into the office of the presidency. Committed to actually reducing the use of military force overseas and reducing presidential war making power, the train lawyer, he had a moral position on this actually and he tried and he did withdraw american forces from Iraq and was of course criticized by many people for do but at the same time he had some real problems in the world to deal with terrorism being one of them and fools. He has our very much biased towards the use of military force, its much harder as per to go and get Vladimir Putin and she didn't paying to agree with you much easier to send these wonderful boys we have, and these incredible soldiers we have over there and when you have congress which always against you. It's also easier to use the miller

because you send them there, and even if members of congress from your own party or the other are angry at. You, though, still find the soldiers, a of congress wants to vote to starve our soldiers overseas. So they stop your budget that even threatened not to pay the debt, but there still find your soldiers, and so you, are pushed by the circumstances. You're. To do this, it is very hard to resist so that I think, criticism of obama. The fair one would be that he didn't resist the pressures that were there, but he did not make those pressures. So is there something about putting the responsibility and the president to To form the structured around him locally such that he can make the policy that the that matches the rhetoric. So what am I talking to his hiring? Basically, just everybody you work with you: have powers president, due to the fire and higher or due to basically schedule meetings,

in such a way that I can control your decision making. So I imagine, is very difficult to to get out of afghanistan, ghana, Iraq, when most of years sketch meetings are, would generals or something like that, but if the rear organizes. Yes, oh yes, and you reorganized who you have like late night talks with beauty, as ye have a huge ripple effect on the on the policy. I think that's right, I think who has access to the president is absolutely crucial, and presidents have to be more strategic about that. They tend to be reacting to crises cause every day as a crisis yeah, and if you're acting to a crisis, you're not controlling access, because the crisis is driving you so that's one element of it, but I also think- and this is the moment where in right now president's have to invest in reforming the system. The system decision making should we have a national security council that looks the way it does. Should our military be structured the way it is that

the founding fathers wanted a military that was divided. They did not want a unified department of defense that was only created after world war. Two should we have as large a military as we have should we be in as many places there are some fundamental structural reforms we have to undertake and part of that is who you appoint, but part of that is also how you change the institutions that the genius of the american system is that it's a dynamic system, it can be adjusted. It has been adjusted over time. That's the heroic story, the the frustrating story is, it often takes us a long time to make those adjustment until we go into such bad circumstances that we have no choice. So in the of power of the office of the president versus the united states military, the department of defense give a sense that the president has more power ultimately said to decrease the size of the department and to withdraw from any wars or

freeze them out of wars. There's the president, come implying? The president has a lot of power here in the scale. Yes, present had a lot of power and we are fortunate in it. It was just proven in the last few years that our Monetary uniquely among many countries with large militaries, is very deferential to the president and very restricted in its ability to challenge the president. So that's a strength of system, but the way you were, the military is not with individual decisions by habit by having a strategic plan that re examined, what role so it's not just about whether we're in afghanistan or not, the question we have to ask is when we look at our toolbox we can do in our foreign policy. Are there other tools? We should build up and therefore some tools in the military. We should reduce that's the broader strategic question. Let me ask you the most absurd question of all

that you did not sign up for, but, as it has been, a big hanging out with a guy named european recently is very important for from for me in him to figure this out. If a president, because you said you imply the presents very powerful if the president shows up and and the us government is in fact, in possession of the aliens alien spacecraft, do you think the president will be told a more responsible adult historian question version of that is that is there things that the machine of government keeps secret from the president or is the present ultimately at the very centre of you like map out the sediment. For me, in power you have you have see. I you have all these organizations that, like that, do the. The machinery of government not just like the passing of bills but like guinea information, homeland security- I actually

engaging in wars. There are all kinds of things the how central as the president would the president know some of the shady things they're gone on it aliens or some kind of cyber security thou against russia and china. All those gaza thing is really made aware and found if south honduras does that make you. So presidents like leaders of any complex organizations, dont know everything that goes on and they have to ask the right questions. This is macchiavelli most imports, thing a leader has to do- is ask the right questions. You know, have to know the answers. That's why you hire smart people, but you have to ask the right questions. So if the present asks u s government those who are responsible for the aliens or responsible for these cyber warfare against russia, they will answer honestly they will have to, but they will not volunteer that information in all cases. So the best way of present can operate is tat,

people around him or her who are not the traditional policymakers. This is where I think academic experts are important, suggesting questions to ask to therefore try to get the information it makes me nervous, because I think human nature is such that the the academics, the experts, everybody is almost afraid to ask the questions for which the answers might be burdensome yes and sells right and you can get a lot of trouble. Not asking is it's the old elephant in the room, the correct correct he This is exactly right and too often media, good leaders and those who try to protect them. Try to shield themselves. They don't lie to know certain things, so this is part of what happened with the EU. Of torture by the united states, which is a war crime during

war on terror. President bush at times intentionally did not ask and people around him prevented him from asking are discouraged from asking questions. You should have asked to know about what was going on and that's how we ended up with did, you could say the same thing about reagan and IRAN. Contra I wonder what it takes to be the kind of leader that steps in and ask some difficult questions. So aliens is one year for spacecraft, write another one net Torture is another one, the cia, how much information is being collected about americans? I can see as president being very uncomfortable asking that question, because if the answer is a lot of information is being collected by americans, then you have to be the guy whose lives with that information it for the rest of your life you have to look around you probably not going to reform their systems vary. Did we have to EU pilot? We re picky by which

If your reform, you don't how much time it takes a lot of effort to restructure things, you nevertheless would have to be based lying. two to the were no two to two years. Two others around you about the unethical things depends of course, what you're at the ethical system is. I wonder what it takes to ask those hard questions. I wonder if how few of us can be great leaders like that, and I wonder if our political system, the electoral system such that makes it likely that such leaders will come to power, it's hard and you can't ask all the right questions and there is a legal hazard if you know things at certain times, but I think you can To your point on hiring, you can hire people who will do that in their domains, and then you the trust that when they think it's something, that's a question, you need ass. They pass that on to you. This is why

it's not a good idea to have loyalists, because loyalist will shield you from things it's a good idea to have people of integrity, who you can rely on it. Do you think, will ask those right questions and then pass that down through their organization woodson firing to you what's inside to you about several the presidency's throughout the recent death aids is there's somebody this desire to that's interesting in instead of your study of how the office's changed while bill Clinton is one of the most fascinating figures like can I apologize bill Clinton just put the smaller face. Retired. Somebody mentioned them at this point. I know why you say it's charisma, I suppose, while he's a is uniquely individual, but but he- and he fascinates me because he's a fig hear of such enormous talent and enormous appetite and such little self control and such extremes and- and I think

it's not just that he tells us something about the presents. He tells us something about our society. You know american society. This is not new to our time is filled with the norm. Enormous reservoirs of talent and creativity and those have a bright and a dark side, and you see both would be and in some ways he's the mirror of the best and worst of our society, and maybe there Really, what president's are, in the end right there mirrors of our world that we get the gun we deserve, we get the leaders we deserve. I wish we embraced that a more a lot of people criticise donald trump. for a certain human qualities that he has. A lot of people criticise bill. Clinton for sir employees? I wish we kind of ambition the chaos of that our at the inner, because he does you write in some sense represent me, doesn't represent the greatest ideal of america, but that the flawed aspect of human

nature's what he represents, and that's the beautiful thing about america: the diversity of this land with the the the mix of it, the the the corruption of of within capitalism, the the beauty of capitalism, the innovation, all those causa things that people like four star from nothing and create everything. You almost to the world's oil gas and so on, but also the people Bernie made us and and in all, as the meeting showed the d, a multitude of creeps that apparently permeate the air, the entirety of our system. So I don't know, there's

something em they're. There is some sense in which we put our present on a pedestal, which actually creates a fake human being like week that the standard we hold them too is forcing the fake politicians to come to power versus the authentic one, which is in some sense the promise. A donald trump is us like its is the definitive statement of us. The city is like this. The opposite of the fake politician is whatever else you want to say. A bottom is there's the the the chaos. That's unlike anything else that came before. One thing in particular may be preference and of mine, but I really admire- maybe I'm romanticizing the past again, but I romanticize the president's there were students of history here.

There were almost like king philosophers in our great gre. You know that made speeches there, you know reverberated through decades after right, then we we kind of what using the words of those president's, whether written by them or not. We tell the story of america and others even obama has been an exceptionally good. As far as I know, apologize from incorrect on this, but from everything seen he was a very deep scholar of history and I really admire. That is that through the through the history of the office of the presidency does that just your own preference or that's supposed to come with a job I supposed to be a student history. I thought Maybe I'm oversee, buys a historic, but I do think it comes to the job. Every president, I've studied

had a serious interest in history. Now how they pursued that interest would very o was more bookish, more academic. So was george w bush and strange ways. George aids, w bush was less sober. Georgie stubby was love to talk. People, so he would talk to historic, ronald reagan, loved movies and move were an insight into history for him he likes to watch movies about another times that wasn't always the best of history, but he was in twisted in what is a fundamental historical question: how, as how our society developed? How is it grown and changed over time and how has that change affected? Who we are today that the historical question really interesting to me. I do a lot of work with business leaders and others to you. Read certain point in any career- and you become a historian because you realise that the formula in the technical knowledge that you ve gained got you too, where you are, but now

Your decisions are about human nature. Your decisions about social change and they can't be answered technically, they can only be answered by studying human beings. And what is history, it studying the laboratory of human behaviour to serve, played down advocate I can especially in the engineering scientific domains. I often history holding us back. Sarah, way. Things are done in the past and not necessarily going to hold the key to what will progress us into the future. Of course with his tree in studying human nature- does seem like humans are just the same shares the same problems over and over is so. In that sense, it feels like history has all the way and whether we are talking about wars, whether we are talking about corruption, but everywhere

talking about economics. I think there's a difference between history and antiquarian ism, so antiquarian ism with some people call history is the design to go back to the past or stay stuck in the past or antiquarian. Ism is the desire to have the desk that Abraham, lincoln sat at? Wouldn't it be cool to sit at his desk I'd love to have that desk. If I had a few extra million dollars, I require it right. So, in a way, that's antiquated some that's trying to capture and hold on hold on to the past the passes talisman for antiquarians. What history is is the study of change over time? That's thrill definition of historical study and historical thinking, and so what were studying is change, and so a historian should never say we have to do is the way we've done them in the past. The historian should say we can't do them the way we did them in the past. We can't step in the same river twice. Every podcast of yours is different from the last

right. You planted out and then it goes in its own direction right and what studying than in history were studying at the patterns of change, and we recognizing were part of a pattern, so what I would say the historian, who is trying to hold the engineer back I'd, say no, tell it engineer not to do this. Tell him too stan how this fits so the relationship with other engineering products and other activities from the past that still affect us today, for example, any product you produce is gonna, be used by human beings who have prejudices it's gonna go into an equal society, don't assume it's gonna go into an equal society, don't assume that when you create a social media site that people are going to use it fairly and put on

truthful things on it. We should be surprised, that's where human nature comes it, but it's not trying to learn of the past is trying to use the knowledge in the past to better inform the changes. Today I had to ask you by george Washington. It may be may be of some insights. It seems like he's such a fascinating figure. In the context of the study of power, because I kind of intuitively have come to internalize the belief that power corrupts in absolute power corrupts absolutely yes and and s sort of like basically in thinking that we have to. We cannot trust anyone individual. I can't trust myself with power cantrip. Nobody can if anybody with power, we have to create institutions and structures that prevent us from ever being able to mass absolute power, and yet is I george Washington, who seems to concur with from wrongly

he seems to give away relinquish power. Physic george, wash intended it like almost like the purest of ways, which is the believes in this country, but he just believes he's not the person to to to have to carry it forward. I would do you make of that? What what kind of human does it take to to give away that power? Is there some hopeful message we can carry through to the future, to tid, to elect leaders like that or to the or to our? find friends to hang out with horror like that. What is that? How do you explain that, so it say, actually the most important thing about george Washington. It's the right thing to do to bring up what they are storing gary wills wrote years ago. I'm gonna quote him was that washington recognise that sometimes you get more power by giving it up then, by trying to hold on to every last piece of it. Washington gives us

how, at the end of the revolution he's successfully carried through, the revolutionary war, aims his commander of the revolutionary horses and he gives up his command and then, of course, is president After two terms, he gives up his command. What is he doing he's an ambitious person, but recognising that the most import currency he has for power- is- is respected status as a disinterested statesman. that's really what his powers and how to further that power by showing that he doesn't crave power. So he was self were very self aware of this and very sophisticated and understanding understand it is, and- and I think there are many other leaders who recognize that and you can up to in some ways the store, we have many of our presidents who, even before that There is a two term limit in the constitution. Leave after two terms. They do that.

Because they recognize that their power is the power being a statesman, not of being a president. I still wonder what kind of man who takes, what kind of human being it takes to do because I ve been studying Vladimir putin quite a bit right and he's still, I believe the he still has popular support that's not fully manipulated, because I know a lot of people in russia, a nation. The almost the entirety of my family in russia are big supporters of Putin. Now everybody I talk to sort of this, not just a consortium media like the people that live in russia seems to seem to support him? It feels like this will be in a george Washington way. Now, The time that could put Putin just a godsend could relinquish power

thereby in the eyes of russians, become in in, like the long arm of history, be viewed as the great leader. If you look at the economic growth of russia, you look at the rescue from the collapsed If the soviet union and russia finding its footing and then relinquishing power in a way that that perhaps if russia succeeds forms a truly democratic state, this will be a potent, can become or the great leaders in russian history in the context of the twenty first century. I think there are two reasons: why is really hard for Putin and for others, one is the trappings of power- are very seductive, as you said before their corrupting. This is a real problem. Right, If, in the business contacts you don't want to give up that private jet, if it's important context is billions of dollars every year that he is able to take for himself or give to his friends and others will be poor feeling

just to rich- and he has billions of dollars stored away, but he won't be able to get the new billions, and so that's part of the trappings of. Our are a big deal, and then, second important case in particular, he has to be worried about what happens next. Will he be true I will someone tried to come in asked him what someone tried to come and assassinate him. Why Washington recognise that leaving early limited the corruption and limited the enemies that you made, and so there was a story. He's your choice. Putin is at this point brennan power too long, and and this comes back to your core insight into cliche, but it's true power corrupts now. One should have power for too long. This was one of the best insights. The founders of united states had that power was to be held for a short time as a fiduciary responsibility nodded Something you aren't right. This is the problem with monarchy. Without restock receive that you own power right, we don't, power. We were in holding it in trust. He

Others there's some probably they very specific psychological studies, of how many years, a taste for you to forget that you can't own power. That's right this! You know that could be a much more rigorous discussion about the length of terms that are appropriate, but really there's a mile like Stalin, had power for thirty years. I putin is pushing, though those that many years already there's a certain point where you forget the person you are before you took the power that right, you forget to be humble in the face of this responsibility and then there's no gone back that that's how dictators are born, that's how they evil, like authoritarian, become evil or, well, let's not use the word evil but counterproductive, productive destructive to the to the idea that the initially probably came to office would that's right. That's where one of the key

historical insights is. People should move jobs and is the plasma I was about absolute late as they can go, becomes a yo somewhere else, but dont stacy ia one place too long it it's a problem with start ups right, the founder, you can have a brilliant and they found it doesn't want to link up with the same issue. at the same time I mean that's what you're mosque and a few other is like layer pages, sergei bran, that stayed for quite a long time, and they actually would the beacon they on their shoulders carried the dream. The company or everybody else doubted so, but that seems to be the exception. Brighton is the rule. One even Sergey, for example, right has stepped back, replaced a day to day role and is not running go on the way with an interesting thing is he stepped back in a quite tragic way? from what I seen, which is, I think, wills mission and initial mission of

making the world's information accessible to. Everybody is what most for missions of any company in the history of the world. I think it's will go. It's done with a search engine and other for thirty semantics. Getting a lot of books is russia's regrettable as some would look appear, but what he said was that is not the same company anymore, and I know maybe I'm reading too much into it, because the more may be proud The same as the size of the company is much larger, the kind of leadership that, but at the same time, Europe they change the motto from you know don't be evil to is becoming corporate ties, of course of things, and it said it throws off cycles. Write. History is about cycles that their their cycles to life. There cycles

organizations. It said I it says Steve jobs, leaving apple by passing away, said. You know what the future of spacex intestinal looks like without even musk is quite sad is very pass that those companies become something very different. They become something much more like corporate stale there. So maybe maybe most of the progress is made through cycles may be new. He almost comes along all those kinds of things, but it does seem the the american system of government as as built into it the cycling. Yes, that makes effective, and it makes it last very long and less a very long time and its continued took and led the world short sharp and the topic, continues to know its eggs. I mean we weren t be north third century

Democracies on this scale, rarely last that long, so that that's that's a point of pride, but it also means we need to be attentive to keep our house in order, because it's not inevitable that this experiment continues not born to meditate on that actually You've mentioned that fdr franklin D, roosevelt, is one of the great leaders in american history. Why is that? franklin. Roosevelt, had the power of empathy. no leader that I have ever studied or been around or spend any time reading about, was able to connect with people who were so. Friend from himself as franklin roosevelt, he came from the most elite family He never had to work for a paycheck in his life. When he was president, he was still collecting an allowance from his mom. You couldn't be more elite than franklin roosevelt, but he authentically connected. This was not propaganda.

he was able to feel the pain and understand the lives of some of the most destitute americans in other parts of the country, Finland, things are through the one of the hardest economic periods, American history is able to feel the pain he was able to visit the number of immigrants. I read oral histories from or who have written themselves. All Bela was one example, the great novice who talk about how as image to the? U s about was of russian jewish emigrant. He said growing up in chicago, politicians while trying to steal from us. I didn't think any of them cared until I heard after, and I knew he spoke to me and- and I think Part of it was after really try to understand people. That's the first. He was humble enough to try to do that, but second he had a talent for that in his heart. know exactly what it was, but he had a talent for putting himself imagining himself in someone else's shoes. What does stands out to you

where's the important he he was he was through. He went through the great depression. Does the new deal which some people criticise some people see any is, is vital get some of these policies and their long ripple effects, but at the time is some of the most innovative power Yes, in the in the history of america to save their ought we not good for america, but there are nevertheless hold with the very rich in important lessons. But then you do Obviously one or two of the entire process is there's something that without the u s to great moment that made after yes, I think what, after a does from his first hundred days in office, forward and this begins with his fireside chats he helps americans to see that their all in it together and that by creating hope and creating,

sense of common suffering and common mission. It's not frank, simple solutions, one of the lessons from fdr hours, if you want to bring people together, don't offer a simple, motion because, as soon as I offer a simple solution, I have people for it and against it. Don't do that explain the problem frame, the problem and then give people emission so Roosevelt's? First, Radio dress in march of nineteen thirty three, the banking system is collapsing and we can't imagine it right Banks were closing and you can get your money out. Your life's savings would be lost right. We can't imagine that happening in our world today. Comes on the radio. He takes five minutes to explain how banking works most people than stand how banking work right. They don't actually hold your money in a vault, they landed. to some one else. Then he explains why. If you go and take him out of the bank and put it in your mattress you're, making it worse for yourself. He explains this and then he says I dont he does. I don't have a solution, but he was wont to do

I'm gonna send in government officers to examine the banks and show you the books the banks, and I want you to help me by calling you put your money back in the banks, were all to do this together. No simple so no ideological statement but a sense of common mission. Let's go, and do this together when you re as I have so many of these oral histories and memoirs for people who lived through that period, many them disagreed with some of its policies and thought he was too close to Jews and they don't like the fact that a woman and his cabinet and all that, but they felt he cared and they felt they were part of some common mission. When they talk about their experience fighting in world war, two, whether in europe or asia, it was that that prepare them. They knew what it meant to be an american when they were over there. I say that to me as a model of leadership, and I think that's as possible, today's ever been see think is passed. well. I was going to ask this again:

be very shallow view, but it feels like this country, as more divided than there has been an reason history, perhaps this social me in all things are merely revealing the division revealing the to creating the division, but is it possible to have a leader that unites in the same way that if you are dead, without well we're living through a pandemic. This is already yazzi so, like I was yes, they were suffering, but there were. This. Is economic suffering right usual, would you have lost their job? Is it possible to have is there one a hunger is: is there possibly to have enough fdr style leader who unites? Yes, I think that is what president Biden is trying. I must say how much I hope you'll succeed, but I think that's what trying to do the way you do this is you do not allow yourself to be captured by your opponents?

in congress or somewhere else. Fdr had a lot of opponents in congress. He had a lot of opponents in politics, governors and others who didn't like him herbert hoover, we're still around and still accusing F are being a conspiracy in all these other things. So you don't allow yourself, be captured by the leaders of the other side. You go over their heads to the people, and so today way to do this is to explain to people and empathize with the suffering and dislocation and difficulties there dealing with and show that you're trying to help them not an easy solution, not a simple, I meant, but here are some things we can all do together. That's why I think infrastructure makes a lot of sense, but after invested into right after built hoover, damn who would in turn the lights on four young lyndon Johnson, who grew up outside of Austin after was the one, who invested in road construction, it was then continued by dwight eisenhower by a republican with the interstate highway system after invest,

Debbie play in building thousands of schools in our country, planting trees. That's the kind of work that can bring people together You don't have to be a democratic republic to say you know what we'd be a lot better off my community. If we had better infrastructure today, I want to be part of our. Maybe I can get a job doing that made it. My company can benefit from that. You bring people together, way becomes a common mission. Even if we different ideological positions. Yes funny I, when I first Joe Biden as many in mid miss may years. I think you were president against so Obama is granted right in the eye. Before I heard, speak, I really liked him, but once I heard him speak, I stop. I started like him less and less in it speaks to something interesting where it's hard to put into words, what why you connect with people the empathy the you mention after you have like these bad part in the french

mother fucker, like tat. He was about that connect with EU there's something just powerful and with job. I can't I guy one a really like em an egg there's something not quite there were it feels like he doesn't quite know my pain, even though he on paper is again I thought you know he knows the pain of the people in their something not connecting, and this is hard to explain his hard to put into words, and it makes me not as us junior and scientists, and makes me not feel good about like presidencies, because it makes me feel like it's more or art and science need is an art and- and I think it's exactly an art for the reasons you led out its aesthetic he's, not feeling it's about an ocean all the things that we can't engineer. We ve tried for centuries it's to engineer, emotion, we're never going to death, don't try it! I'm a parent of teenagers, don't even try to explain emotion, but you hit on the key point.

the key challenge for whereby these gotta find the right words. It's not finding the words to bullshit people yeah it's finding the words to help express. We ve all felt empowered and felt glad when someone uses words that, put into words. What we're feeling yeah. That's what he needs. That's the job. the leader and their certain words I haven't heard it. May politicians use those words a certain words that, like make you forget that That's your for immigration or I guessed immigration. Make you forget whether your for wars and against wars may you feel about like the bickering and somehow like inspired, if you like elevate you to believe in the greatness that this contract could be yes in that same way, like the reason I moved to Austin is, as funny to say, is like I just heard words from people from friends where they're excited by the possibilities

future here, I wasn't thinking like. What's the right thing to do, what's the strategic gonna want to launch a business, there's a lot arguments, the seventh cisco or may be staying in boston in my case, but there's this excitement that there was beyond me, and that was emotional. Yes, yes, and that that's that's what it seems like that's what builds that's, what great leaders do, but that's what builds countries that's where bill gray's, grey businesses as Rey and and it's what people say about austin, for example, all the time a talented people who come here like yourself and here's Using they, no one person creates that the words emerge and power.

What after understood did you ve got find the words out there and use them? You don't have to be the creator of them right, just as the great painter doesn't invent the painting or taking things from others as a small aside. Is there something you could say about sdr and hitler accosting tried to think can in this person? Can this moment in history have been invented prevented. Can hitler have been stopped, can do some of the atrocities from my own family that, like my group, parents had to live through the starvation in the soviet union. Of the thing that people don't often talk about is the atrocities committed by Stalin and some people. It feels like. Here's the great leader after that had the ants to arm to Heaven

impact on the world that if he already probably had a great positive impact, but had a had a chance to stop, may be world war two or stop stop some of the evils. When you look at what how weak hitler was much of the thirties relative to militarily arouses everything else, how many people, could have done a lot to stop him and after in particular, didn't he tried to play not pacify, but bait basically do diplomacy and led by germany. Do germany, but you of do europe folk centre, Erica user? Is there something

you would. Would you hold his feet to the fire on this, or is it a very difficult from the perspective of dared to have known what was coming? I think, after had a sense of what was coming, not quite the enormity of what hitler was doing and not quite the enormity of the holocaust became. I also lost relatives in the holocaust That was beyond the imagination of human beings. Yes, but its clear in his papers that, as early as nineteen thirty four people, he was did he knew well told him that hitler was very dangerous? but it was crazy that he was a lunatic, hamilton fish armstrong, who is a friend of of roosevelt, who was actually the council on foreign relations in new york, had a meeting with hitler in nineteen thirty four. I remember reading the account of this ah and he basically said This man is going to cause a war he's going to cause a lot of damage again. They didn't know quite the scale, so they saw this coming. They saw this coming after your had two problems. First, he had an american public that was deeply isolationist,

the opposite of the problem, in a sense that we were talking about before for an over militarized society now we were a deeply isolationist society in nineteen. Thirty, the depression reinforce that after actually happen. Break the law in the late thirty's to support the ice so it was very hard to move the country in that direction, especially when he had this programme at home. The new, know that he didn't want to jeopardize by alienating an isolationist public. That was the reality. We talked about political manipulation. He had to be conscious of that. He had to know his audience Second, there were no allies willing to invest in this either. The british were as as committed to appeal as you know, you're a very knowledgeable about this- that the french were as well, this very hard there russian government? The soviet army was cooperating to re militarized, germany, so they weren't alot allies out there either. I think if these occur. This is to be made of after its that one

we're in the war. He didn't do enough to stop. In particular, the killing. jews- and there are a number of historians- myself included, were written about this, and it's an endless debate. What should he have done? There's no doubt by nineteen forty, four, the united states at air superiority and could have bombed the rail lines to auschwitz and other camps that would have saved as many as a million jews. That's a lot of people who could have been saved. Why didn't fdr insist on that in part, because he wanted to use every resource possible to win the war. He did not work be accused of fighting a war for jews, but I think it does fair to say that he probably care less about Jews and east europeans, he did about others, those of his own dutch ancestry and an from western europe, and so even their race comes in is also the explanation for the interment of japanese in the united states, which is a horrible war crime committed by this heroic president hoddan.

Many thousand japanese american citizens lost their freedom on necessarily so he had its limitations and- and I think he could have done more during the war, To save many more lives, and I wish he had and of them, said about empathy, they spoke at your head empathy, but, for example, now there are so many people who described the atrocities happening in China and there's a bunch of across the world where there is a process is happening now in we care, we do not uniformly apply. How much we care for the suffering of others. That's correct, depending on the group, that's correct and then sir says The role of the president is too are to rise above that natural him inclination to protect to do the us forces them to protect. Take the inner circle

and empathize with the suffering of those that are not like. You, that's correct. I agree with her speaking of war. You wrote a book and Henry Kissinger great chances but it made sense in my head, who was Henry kissinger as a man and as a historical figure, the henry kissinger to me, is one of the most fascinating figures in history, because he comes to the united states as a german jewish emigrant aged fifteen speaking no english, and within a few years he's a major figure. For once. In? U s foreign policy at the height of u s, power while he's doing that he he's never elected to office and is constantly reviled by people, including people who are anti semitic, because mrs jewish, but at the same time also, his exoticism makes it more attractive to people so someone like nelson rockefeller once kiss

enjoy a is one of kissinger's first patrons, because you want to really smart. You and kissinger is going be that smart do caucus? Call kissinger policy? Do there? Were these court jews in the sixteenth and seventeenth in centuries in europe, every king wanted the judah manage his ankle and in a sense in it states in the second half of the year century many president's one. I do to manage their international affairs and what is billy mean as I just about being jewish. It's the internationalism cosmopolitanism! That's one of the things I was fascinated with with Kissinger someone like Kissinger's unthinkable as a powerful figure in the united states, thirty or forty years earlier, because then I say to run by washed its run by white, leads who come from a certain background? kissinger represents a moment when american society opens up not to everyone, but opens up to these cosmopolitan figures who have language gills historical knowledge networks that can be used for the? U S, government, when afterwards, Do we have to rebuild europe where

have to negotiate with the soviet union where we need the kinds of knowledge we didn't have before at harvard where he gets his education late? He started at city college actually, but harvard where he gets. His education late is at the center of what nothing at all these major universities at harvard at yale, at stanford, university, texas everywhere, where they are growing. in their international affairs, bringing in the kinds of people who never would be at the university before training them and then listing them in cold war activities and so kissinger Is a representative of that phenomenon? I became interested in him because I think he's a bell there. He shows how power It's changed in the united states, so he enters his whole world of politics. What post world war two in the fifties? Yes, so he he actually

The forties eve, any it's an extraordinary story now comes the united states in nineteen. Thirty, eight just before kristallnacht as family leaves they that year should up right us. I've, nuremberg, they leave right before kristallnacht iron the fall of thirty eight come to come to new york. He originally works in a brush factory. Cleaning brushes goes to a public high school. Nineteen, forty two just after pearl harbor, he joined the military and he's very quickly in the military first of all, given citizenship which you didn't have before he sent for the first time outside of a kosher home. He had been in a is entirely centre south carolina eat ham for uncle sam and then he is this is extraordinary. At at the age of twenty a barely speed, the english? He is sent back to germany with the: u s: army in an elite, counter intelligence role, while because any german speakers he came into his fifteen, so we actually

just ass, a society that people have a cultural knowledge and because the jewish. They can trust that he'll be anti nazi. and as a whole group of these figures are he's one of many and so he's in an elite circle. He's discriminated against in new york. When you go harvard after that he can only live in a jewish. Only do the same time he's an elite policy will encounter intelligence. He forms a network. There stays with him, the rest of his career, others, a gentleman named fritz kramer who become, say sponsor of his in the emerging pentagon defence department, world and as early as the early nineteen fifty cent than to korea to comment on affairs in korea, he becomes both in it intellectual recognized for his connections, but also some who policymakers want to talk about his book on nuclear weapons when it's written is given to pray an eisenhower to read, because they see

If this is someone writing interesting things, you should read what he says: there's a certain aspect to them. That's kind of like forrest gump. He seems to continuously be the right person at the right. I'm in the right place. That's finding him in his man is honest. You! You can only get lucky so many times, because he continues to get lucky in terms of being at the right place in in history, for many decades until today. What he has a knack for that he I spend a lot of time talking with him and what comes to very quick is that he has an eye for power. Think unhealthy ease, obsessed with power, keys, blame like an observer of power. Where this are being, does he want power himself? Yes, both of those things both of them and and- and I think I explained this in the book- he doesn't agree with what I'm going to say now

I think, I'm right and I think she's right a very hard analyze yourself right now. I think he develops an obsession with gaining power because he sees what happens when you have no power. The expired answers the trauma. His father is very respect Gymnasium lair in germany, even though is jewish he's actually, the teacher of german classics to the german kids great and he's forced to flee, and he becomes nothing his father never really makes away for himself the united states. He becomes a postal delivery. Person was nothing wrong with that, but for someone, who's are respected. Teacher in germany, indian lousy, mirror like professors their right to then be this position is mother, passed it open and catering business when they come to new york. I detect a typical, migrant story, but he sees it were is grandparents are killed by the nazis So he sees the trauma. Then he realises how perilous it is to be without power and you're saying

he does not want to acknowledge the the effect of that. It's hard it hard. I most of us. We've we've had drama its believable, that its dramatic as you don't talk about it, I ever again and who interviews, combat veterans- and he says as soon as some freely, wants to tell me about their combat trauma. I suspect that they're not telling me the truth. If its dramatic it's hard to talk about. Yeah. Sometimes I wonder how much for my own life, Everything that has ever done is just the result of the complicated relationship with my father. I e in two. I had a really difficult. I did a podcast conversation with him and I saw it actually. I have a it's great it was. I regret ever never do that with my, but I remember, as I was doing it and four months after I regretted doing it, I just kept regretting it and the there was regretting. It spoke to the to the facts.

I'm running away from some truths that are back there somewhere and that that's perhaps kissinger's as well, but is there I mean he's dunce, he's been a part of so many interesting moments american history, american history of world history from war, the cold war, vietnam war. Until today, what stands out to you a particularly important moment in his career that that that made who he is well, I think what made his career. and in many ways was his experience in the nineteen fifties building a network work of people across the world who were rising leaders from unique position He ran what he called the international seminar at harvard. which was actually a summer school class that no one at harvard cared about, but he

invited. All of these rising intellectuals and thinkers from around the world, and he built a network theirs that he used for evermore too. That's what really, I think, boosts him. The most port moments in terms of making his reputation, making his career or two sets of activities. One is the open into china and his ability to first of all, control of u s policy without the authority to do that and direct do us policy and then build a relationship with mountain dung and John lie. That was unthinkable just for five years earlier, of course, present It is a big part of that as well, but Kissinger's mover in shaker on that and it's a lot of manipulation, but is also a vision. Now. This is put in the moment of American history, where there is a very powerful anti communism correct so communism is seen, is much more, even though than today as the enemy correct and china

taking that there were one of our key enemies in vietnam In korea, american forces were fighting chinese forces directly. Chinese forces come over the border, thousands organs die the hand of chinese forces rights over the night locked out united states had no relationship with communist china. He opens that relationship. at the same time, He also creates a whole new dynamic in the Middle east after In seventy three war, the so called yom kippur war, he steps, then it becomes the leading negotiated between the israelis, the egyptians and other major actors in the region, and it makes the united states the most powerful actor in the Middle EAST. The soviet union, far less powerful, which is great for the united state. in the seventies and eighties. It gets us, though, into the problems we of course have thereafter so that this basis, very pragmatic approach. It he's taken, the realistic approach versus the idealistic approach.

Termed realpolitik. What is this thing? What is it? What is this approach to world politics? So we are politicians for kissinger is really focusing on the power centres in the world and trying as best you can, to manipulate those power centres to serve the interests of your own country. And so that's, why he's a multilateral he's, not a unilateral lost? He believes in It states should put itself at the sun You have negotiations between other powerful countries, but that's also way There very little attention to countries that are less powerful, and this is why he's often criticized by human rights activists for him of africa, latin america, which you and I would consider it in places are unimportant because they don't have power, they can protect their power. produce a lot of economic wealth, and so they Add or less realpolitik views the world and a hierarchy of power? How does.

Realpolitik realise itself in the world what it was What does that really mean? I? How do you push for dangerous your own countries? this power centres, but it is, it is a big bold move to negotiations to work with a communist nation to it, with your enemies that a powerful or how What is a sort of if you can further elaborate your philosophy behind it sure so there there. There are two key elements that then end up producing all kinds of tactics, but the two strategic elements of kissinger's way of thinking about real politics, which are classical ways going back to two cities and the greeks are to say first of all You figure out who your allies are an you build webs of connection so that your allies help you to acquire what you want to acquire this is why, according to herodotus the greek speed, the persians persons are bigger, but the greeks, the spartans, the theme,

I was able to work together and leverage their resources right. So it's about leveraging your resources for kissinger. makes western europe crucially important? It makes japan crucially important. It makes israel and Egypt crucially important right in building these webs. You build your surrogates. You hold your brother states in other parts of the world. Do brill tight connections and work together to control the resources that you want. The second element of the strategy is not to go to war. Or with your adversary. But to do so. you can to limit the power of your adversary. Some of that is containment preventing the soviet union from expanding. That was a key element of american cold war policy, but sometimes it negotiation. That's what they taught was about four kissinger response. a lot of time more time than any other american foreign policy maker negotiating with soviet leaders as well as chinese leaders. What is it Do he wants to limit the nuclear arms race in those days ahead,

We don't want the soviet union get ahead of us. We negotiate and to limit their abilities where we play to our strengths. So it's a combination of keeping your adversary down and building tight webs. Within that context, military forces used but you're, not using war for the sake of war. You using warfare too far do your access to the resources, economic, political, geographic. If you want and build relationships and then the second thing to limit the powers of those you're against It's a very solid insight into how he preferred to build relationships. Are we talking about, like again, it's the one on one. Is it through policy or is it through like fun conversations? Is there any cool kind of It says the speaker. Kissinger is the ultimate kiss up here.

It adds that, with some used to make fun of him and even the film the filmmaker offers doktor strange love was damer, forgetting my standing cooper call him kiss up the is right and he had a wife Wonderful way, a figure, what it is you wanted back to that discussion we had before and trying to show how he could give you more. What you wanted as a leader was very personal, mystic, very personal, stick and I spent a lot of time, for example, kissing up to lend abrasion. If up to now and tells me you're the greatest leader in the history of the twentieth century? People will look back on you as the great leader. This sounds like be asked, but it serious right he's feeding the egos of those around him. Second, he is willing to get things done view his effective. You want him around you because of his efficacy, so richard next

it is always suspicious that Henry Kissinger is getting more the limelight. He hates the kissinger gets a nobel peace prize and he doesn't, but he needs him cause kissinger's, the guy who gets things done so he performs he builder relationship? In almost I say this in the book and almost a gangster way. He didn't like that. He criticized that part of the book, but again I still think the evidence is there and. you need something to be done, boss I'll, do it and don't forget that I'm doing this for you and you get me, you're dependency in the hague, alien way right here and and and so he builds this personal dependency through ego and through performance and then he's skilful at making decisions for people who are more powerful because he's never elected office always needs powerful people to let him do things he convinces you at your decision when it's really his, to read his mammals are beautiful, he's actually very soon, that writing things in a way that look looks like he's, giving you options as president, but

act is only one option there is he speak into the gangster to the loyalty Is he ever like this? Since I got from Nixon? Is he would nixon back stab you if he needed to one The things that I admire by gangsters is they dont baxter. Those in the inner circle like loyalty, above all else, emilius, that's the sense I've gotten from the stories of the capacities. Is a where would you put kissinger on that is e loyalty, above all all else, or is it our human, human zika, Steve jobs The thing is I take as long as your useful, your useful, but then once long used, the moment? You're no longer useful when you're knocked off the chessboard? It's the latter. With him. He he's back stabbing quite alot, any self serving body.

So make themselves so useful that, even though Nixon knows he's doing that, Nixon still needs him. Yeah. By the way, and that a point so having spoken with kissinger, what's your relationship lake with him as somebody who is an objective way, writing story. It was very difficult because he's very good at manipulating people and out we had about Alfred thirteen interviews, usually formal over lunch. And die, and this was many years by the book disappoint them more than ten years ago. Did you find yourself being like sweetheart? I too, where you live? Go back home later, looking merits headway. What just happened, and be enormously charming and enormously obnoxious at the same time. So I would have these very mixed. Emotions because he gives no ground he is unwilling to, and I think this is a weakness

unwilling to admit mistake and others made mistakes but does it and he certainly won't take on any of the big criticisms that are that are pushed. I understand. Why am I worked hard for what he has, as he has your defensive about it, but he is very defensive is very fragile, but he does not like criticisms at all He used to. He hasn't done this in a while, but he used to call me up and yell at me on the phone quite literally one iota, quoted in the new times or somewhere, saying something it sounded critical of him so since there was one instance a number of years ago, where a reporter, m across some documents were kissinger said negative things about Jews in russia, typical things that it german jus, would say about east european jews. And the new york times asked me: is this accurate and I said, get the documents are accurate, seen them their accurate? He was so angry about that so does the fragility, but there is also the enormous charm and enormous intelligence, the real choice and with him, though, is he's very good at making his case will convince you.

And as a scholar as it as an observer, You don't want to hear a lawyers case. You wanna actually interrogate the evidence and get at the truth, and so that was a real challenge with speaking of his approach of reality, take the features, zuma and look at a human history. Human civilization. What do you think works best and. in the way we progress forward a realistic approach, do whatever it takes control centres of power to play a game, Aim for the for the greater interests of all the good guys, quantum quote or leave by a set of idealism. It is truly act in the war in the best version of the ideas you represent, as opposed to kind of

the present one view and then do whatever it takes and bring them behind the scenes. Obviously, you need some of both, but I lean more to the idealistic side and more so actually believe it or not that, as as I get into my It is, as I have checked and more historical work. Why do I say because I think- and this is one of my criticisms- of kissing I also have a lot of respect for the realpolitik become self defeating. because your constantly running to keep power, but you forget why any often then use power, and I think Kissinger falls into this essence in some of his worst moments. Not all this moment where the power, that should be used to undermine the things you care about it sort of. Example of being apparent and you're doing all these things to you. Take your kid to violin basketball, all these things, and you realize your actually killing your kid and making your kid very unhappy, and always reason you were doing it was to improve the person's life near, and so you have to. Member, why? It is what what a hans and thou causes, is your purpose. Your purpose has to drive you now your purpose,

doesn't have to be airy fairy ideas, so I believe deeply democracy is ideal. I dont think it's gonna look like athenian democracy, but that should drive our policy, but we still be realistic and recognise. We're not gonna build that democracy in Afghanistan tomorrow, ultimately just bore down again to the corrupting nature power that but he can hold power for very long before you start acting in the in the interests of power as a post, in the interests of your ideals, it's impossible Be like somebody like Kissinger who, as assent in power for many many decades and and still remember. What are they initial ideals that you strove to arm to achieve? Yes, I think-

Exactly right? It there's a moment in the book. I quote about about him from one of our interviews. I asked him: what were they guiding ideals for your policies? and he said I care not prepared to share that, and I don't think it because he doesn't know what he thinks he was trying to do. He realizes his use of power departed quite a lot from so you would sound if he the explicit yourself hypocritical, correct. While that, let me ask about war, America often presents itself. That's all both, but just the leaders when they look in the mirror, as they get a sense that we think of ourselves as the good guys in especially this begins. Sometimes to look hypocritical when your ways you more is what's a good day.

Is there a good way to know when you ve lost all sense of what it is to be good, another way asked that is there in military policy in conducting war Is there a good way to know what is a just war and what is a war crime in some circles? Kissinger accused of contributing being a war criminal. Yes, I and an eye arguing the book is not a war criminal, but that doesn't mean that he didn't misuse military power. I think. a just war war, just war is michael walls or others right about at a just war, is a war where both the purposes just and you are using the means to get to that purpose that kill a few people as necessary. That doesn't mean there won't be killing, but his fewest s, proportionality, right you're, your means should be proportional to your ends.

And that's often lost sight of because the drive to to the end often self justifies me go well beyond that, and so that's that's that's how we get into torture in the war on terror. Is there some kind, a lesson for the future? Yes, it can take away from the yes I think that the first set of lessons that I share as a store with with military decisionmakers is first always remember why you're there what you're purposes and always ask yourself if the means you're using are actually proportional ask that question just because you have. These means that you can you just because you have these tools doesn't mean there. The right tools to use- and here is the question that follows from that, and it is a hard question to ask the answers, when we often alike, to hear things I'm doing in war We doing more harm or more good to the reason I went into war,

We came to a point in the war on terror, where what we were doing was actually creating more terrorist, and that's when you have to stop. While some of those in the data, but some of it there's a leap of faith, so from a parenting perspective, let me let me speak as a person with no kids. Single guy as me, be the experts, the roma parenting. Now it does seem There is a very difficult thing to do to arm. even though you know that you're, Who is making a mistake to let them make a mistake to go in the freedom to make them stake. Sure I don't know what to do. But that's a very kind of light. Hearted way of phrasing. The following which is when you look at some of the Places in the world like Afghanistan, which is not doing well right to move out,

knowing that there's going to be a lot of suffering economic. suffering injustices organizations growing death, committing crimes and his own p. on potentially committing crimes against allies. Violence yes, allies, violence against the united states, How do you know what to do? In that case, well again it's an art, not a science, which is what makes it hard for you know an engineer due to think about. This is what makes it endlessly fascinating for me, I think the real intellectual work is at the level of the art right and I think, probably engineering at its highest level becomes an art is well right. I suppose making you never you never know, but I will say this I'll say you have to ask yourself and look in the mirror and say, is all the

I'm putting in actually making this better and in afghanistan. You look at the twenty years and two plus trillion dollars that the? U S has put in, and the fact that You said correctly, it's not doing while right now, after twenty years of that investment, you know I might like a company that I invested After twenty years of my throwing money in that company timing, it to once thence getting out now. Is this kind of obvious emerged how we figure out in the future and how to get out earlier than I mean at that. This points was there two long is obvious. The data, the investment, nothing is working guenaud is very. Very little. Data points to us staying there are more interested in you know being early? Let me back take it back safer place again being in a relationship and getting out of their relationship while things are still good, but you have a sense that it's not going to end up in a good place. That's that's the difficult thing

I have to ask yourself whether its relationship or your talk you up. Policy making in a place like Afghanistan or the thing I'm doing showing me evidence real evidence that they're making things better or making things worse, it's a hard question. To be honest with you have to be very honest and ended up. I was making context. We have actually same thing: we do in a relationship context what we do and ways of content. We ask other friends who are observing that we ask for other observers. This is actually just scientific method element actually right that we can't the highs and break principle. I can't see it because I'm too close to unsure, the by my looking at it right. I need others to tell me in a policymaking context, this is why you need to hear from other people, not just the generals, because here's the thing about the animals there they generally are patriotic hard working people, but there too close there not lying dead too closely, always think they can do better.

How do you think about the cold war now from beginning to end and maybe also with an eye towards the current potential cybercrime cyber war with china with russia. If we look sort of other kind of cold wars, protests pretend surely emerging in the twenty first century, when you look back the cold war of the twentieth century. How do you see it and what lessons do we draw from it? It's a wonderful question because I teach this undergraduates and it's really interesting to see how undergraduates now almost all, from were born after nine eleven here cold war is ancient history to them, in fact, the cold war to them is, is far removed. As you know, the nineteen fifty were to me, I am indebted to you know, that's it. it's unbelievable! It's almost like world war, two

for my generation and cold war and cold war for them it so far of the collapse of the soviet union, doesn't mean anything to say whoa. So how do you described the cold war to them? described the soviet union to that. First of all, I have to explain to them why people were so fearful of communism, anti communism is very hard for them to understand the fact that in the nineteen fifties, americans believed that communist we're going to infiltrate our society and many other societies, and that after fidel castro comes to power. Nineteen. Fifty nine that we're going to see communist regimes all across latin america that fear of communism married to nuclear power, and then even the fear that may be economically. They would outpace us because they would create the sort of army of jovian, crif builders of things and nobody's khrushchev, said right say where we're gonna catch bridge,

in five years, and then the united states after that, right so too, to explain that sense of fear to them that they don't have of those others. That's really improve the cold war was fundamentally ah about the united states. Defence. Defending a capitalist world order against a serious challenger from communism, an alternative way of organizing everything, private property, economic activity, enterprise life, everything organized it totally different, where it was a struggle between two systems. Are your senses inside to interrupt, but your senses that the conflict of the cold war was between two ideologies and not just to big countries with nuclear weapons. I think was about two different ways of life are two different promoted ways of life. The soviet union never actually lived communism, but I I think my reading of Stalin. Is he really tried to go there that khrushchev really glad much off

He was going to reform the solely in. So you go back to a kind of bihar and lenin communist right. So I do think that matter. I do think that enormous and for united states point of view. The view was that common. Ism fascism, where these totalitarian threats to liberal democracy in capitalism, which went hand in hand, so I do that's what the struggle was about and in a certain way, liberal capitalism proved to be. The more enduring system in the united states played a key role in that that that the reality of the cold war, but I think it means different. now to my students and others they focus very. watch on the expansion, american power and the challenges of managing there there looking at it from the perspective of not will we- five, but did we waste our resources on site thence up and it doesn't mean there against what america did. But there is a question of the right,

sources that went into the cold war and the opportunity costs? and you see this when you look at those sort of healthcare systems at other countries building you compare them to the united states race issues also, so that they look at the cost, which I think of often happened after a project is done. You look back at that Second, I think they're also more inclined to see The world is less bipolar. See. The role of china is more complicated post. A colonial era. Anti colonial movements are independent states in africa, latin america that gets more attention. So the One of the criticisms now is because you forget that the lessons of twentyth century history, and the atrocities committed under communism that may be a little bit more willing to accept,

some of those ideologies into our dna society that this kind of VON, that forgetting that capitalistic forces Our part of the reason why we have what we have today. There is a fear amongst Some now that we would have would allow. Basically communism to take hold in america. I mean the jordan and others speak to this kind of idea. I tend to not be so fearful of it. I think it's on the surface. It's not deep. Then I do see the world is a very complicated, as well as their needing to be a role of having support for each other and send certain political lovers, economic levels and then also supporting entrepreneurs. It's like The kind of enforcing of outcomes that is fundamental to the communist system is not something were actually close to

in some of those just fearmongering for four four legs on twitter kind of thing? could come in on that, because I agree with you a hundred percent. I spent a lot of time writing and looking at this and talking to people about this. No communism in united states there never has been, and they certainly isn't now and and shall say this, both from an accurate point of view, but also from just spending a lot of time. Observing young people not states, even those on the farthest left take. Who ever you think, is a further. They don't even understand what communism is there not come innocent any sense the americans are raised in a vernacular, an environment of private property ownership and You know better than anyone if you believe in private property, you don't believe in communism. So the what this sort of Bernie sanders kind of socialist elements as very different right. and I would say some of that- not all of that. Some of that does harking back to. Actually what one in the cold war there were men

social democratic elements of what the united states did that lead to our winning the cold war. For example, the new deal was investing government money in propping up business, in propping up labour unions and during the cold war we spent more money than we had ever spent in. Our history infrastructure on schools on providing social support, social security, our national pension system being one of them. So you could argue actually that social democracy is very compatible with capitalism, and I think that's the debate we're having today how much social democracy I'd also say that the capitalism we've experienced the last twenty years is different. capitalism of the cold war. During the cold war, there was the presumption in the united states. That you had to pay taxes to support are cold war activities that it

it's ok, to make money, but the more money you made, the more taxes you had to pay. We had them, as marginal tax rates in our history during the cold war. Now the aversion to taxes and, of course, no one ever lifespan taxes, but. Notion that we can do things on deficit spending. That's a post, cold war phenomenon, that's not a cold war phenomenon, so so much of the capitalism that were tabled today is not the capitalism cold war, and maybe again we can learn that and see. That is see how we can reform capitalism today and and and get rid of this false, were three about communism in here, you know you make me actually realized. Something important will we have to remember is the word we use on the surface about different policies. We think is right or wrong is actually different than the core thing. That, like is in your blood, the core ideas that are there of I'd. I do see

united states as this there there's this fire there burns of individual freedoms of awe of of of property rights. Did this? these basic foundational ideas that everybody just kind of take for granted, and I think, if you down to them like raised in them. Talking about I de as of social security of universal is again come off of of Allocation of resources is a fundamentally different kind of discussion. The you had in soviet union, I think the vow you of the individual is, of course, to the american system that you basically cannot pass they do the kind of atrocities oh. We saw in the soviet bite. course. You never know the slippery slope as a way of j g g g thing

but I do believe the things you're born with is just so court in this country is, is part of the Oh, you thought are what were in texas, not necessarily Don't ask me what I have a gun control of conversation, but the reason I really like guns. It doesn't make any sense, but philosophically its it's such a declaration of individual rights that so different than no conversations a here with my russian family, my russian friends, that the gun is possible that having guns bad for society in the sense that, like a lead to more violence but there's, something about this discussion that, like that proclaims the value of my freedom as an individual and am not be

eloquent in it, but there very few debates where, whenever people are saying should do you- have what level gun control those kinds of things I hear is it's a fight for how much freedom, even if it's stupid freedom should the individual have, I think, that's I think, that's what that is which are articulated quite often, I I think, combining the two points with great points. I think there is something about american individualism, which is deeply ingrained in our key, turn our society, and it means that the kinds of bad things that happen are different, usually not as bad but but our end federalism often covers up for vigilante. Activity and individual violence toward people that you wouldn't have in a more collective culture, I'm so

The union is in a much worse scale and it was done by the by a government organizations in an to states. You know individuals, the history of lynching in our country, for example, are sometimes its individual police officers. Sometimes it's others again. The vast majority police officers are good. People don't dupe bomb to people. There are these examples and they they able to fester in our society. Kosovo individualism Gun ownership is about personal freedom. I think for a lot of people, and there is no doubt that in our history included in the second amendment, which can be interpreted indifferent, as is the presumption that people should have the right to defend themselves, which is why I think you're getting at that. You should not be completely dependent for your defence on entity that might not be there, for you should be able to defend yourself and gun, symbolise that? I think that a fair point,

I think, as welfare point to say that, as with everything defining, what self defense is really important, so to self defence mean I can have, bazooka. Does it mean I can have weapons that are designed for a military battlefield to mass kill people? That seems to me to be very different from I should have a handgun or some small arm to defend myself. That distinction alone would make a huge difference, most of the mass shootings, at least, which are a proportion smaller proportion of the larger gun deaths in the united states, which are larger than any others. I did but at least the mass shootings are usually perpetrated by people who have not self defense weapons, but mass killing mass killing weapons, and I think It is an important distinction in the constitution. I've got a right to bear arms for railway well regulated militia. When the framers talked about arms, they did not mean the ability to kill as many people as you want to kill them and the ability to defend yourself. So, let's have that conversation, I think it would be useful as a society stop talking about guns or no guns.

What is it that we, as citizens, need to feel we can defend ourselves yeah, I mean guns- have it's complicated. She that he can cause harm to others. Identity sees it of be in drought, legalization of drugs. I tend to leave that we should have the freedom to do stupid things so long as we are harming lots of other people, yes and then guns, of course, have the property that they can be used is not justice. bazooka would argue, is pretty stupid to own for your self defence, but it has the very a negative side effect of being potentially used to harm other people, and yet you have to through that gonna stop by the way. As aside no to the listeners, there's been a bunch of people saying that, like His way to libertarian, for my taste no

actually I'm just the struggling with ideas and sometimes put on different hats. In these conversations, I think, through different ideas, whether there are left right, libertarian, that's true, forgone control, the true freedom gracious true for all of that, I think we should. We should have discussions in the space of ideas. Verses in the space of bans will put each other and labels and put its area two percent and also check your minds. All the time. Try out safely say stupid stuff with the best of intentions trying our best to think through it and then after saying it think about it for a few days and a change of mind and grow in this way. Let me ask a ridiculous question: when zoom out, why not human civilization destroyed itself and alien graduate students are studying it like three four

centuries from now. What do you think will remember about this period period in history, the twentieth century, the twenty first century, this this time wed wars when a charismatic black president in the united states A couple. Pandemics waiting will actually stands the stand out in history No doubt the rapid technologic innovation of the last twenty to thirty years. we created a whole virtual universe we didn't have before had. Of course, that's gonna go in directions. You- and I can't imagine fifty years from now, but this will be and is that origin moment that when we went from play, below the rim, to playing above the hate to be all in person to having a whole virtual world and in a strange way the pandemic was a provocation to move even further.

in that direction, and we're never going back right. Where we're we're going to restore some of the things we were doing before the pandemic, but we're never going to go back to that world. We were in before where every meeting you had to fly to that place, to be in the room where the people I'm so this virtual world in the virtual prisoners and avatars, and all of that I think that's that going to be a big part of how people, member a time also disorder by technology element of it which, which the accedes are part of it's amazing how quickly this is the great triumph. How quickly we ve produced interest, we did these vaccines and, of course, their problems with whose taking them, but but the reality Yes, I mean did this is light speed compared to what would have been like that. Just a nineteen eighteen and nineteen eighty it one of the un's aside from interrupting by one of the disappointing things about this particular time is because vex

seems like a lot of things. Got politicized. He's, does little pause in the game of politics that we don't get the chance to step back fully at least and celebrate the brilliance of the human species. I tried that This is the yes. There are scientists who use their authority improperly have an ego that, when their it within institutions are dishonest with the public, because they don't trust the intelligence of the public, they or not the contrast barrel, all the same tease you did say by humans in a position to our anywhere. Ok, that doesn't in science is an incredible and the the vaccines mean otto. I dont often talk about it because it's so political into its heartbreaking too

Its heartbreaking, how all the good stuff is getting politicized, yeah, that's what it should be. it'll seem less political in the long arm of his iterative. It'll, see it'll, be seen as an outstanding accomplishment and it's a you know, a step toward whatever. Maybe they're doing vaccines have something that replaces the vaccine in ten seconds. You know at that point right, it'll be seen as a step that those will be the some of the positives. Think- the negatives. They will point too will be our enemies, eddie at least at this moment to a jar environment, better how it drawing our living space and not do, enough, even though we have the capabilities to do more to preserve or at least allow a sustainable living space. I'm carpet because I'm an optimist that we will get through this and we will be better at stating our environment in future decades, and so in of environmental policy. They'll see this moment as a dark age or the beginnings of a better age may be as a renaissance

or maybe, as as the ass time, most people have done earth when a couple centuries after wars were all this bay throughout their lives the solar system in the galaxy very possible if the local resident hometown resident monsieur le musk has anything to do with it? I do too, I do tend to think you have said right with all this political bickering. We shouldn't forget that what this aid will be remembered, buys the is incredible levels of innovation. I do. I do think the by Ex stuff worries me more than anything because I feel it there's a lot of weapons that could be yet to be developed and as facebook and I believe that I'm excited about by two avenues. One is artificial intelligence. The cat, in have the kind of systems will create in stages Basically, you mentioned we're move into and any other. Of course this could be the prague physical

the war, but I'm super excited by space exploration. Europe is the magic tour to humans, venus we're getting back to it I mean we. We were enthralled with it in the fifties and sixties when it was a cold war, competition and then, after the seventies we of gave up on it and thanks to elon, musk and others. We're coming back to this issue, and I think there's so much to be gained from the power of exploration is their books and movies in your life. long ago or recently that had big impact on you. Yes, you is something you are yes and you know my favorite novel, I always people this I love, reedy novels. I'm a historian- and I think that historian and the novelist directly and the technology innovator, all actually one and the same- are all very jealous storytellers I met were all in the imagination. Space and I'm trying to imagine the world of the past to inform us in the present for the future. So one of my favorite novels that I read. Actually, when I was in graduate school is a thomas minds, button books and it's the store

we have a family in lubeck in northern germany living through the nineteenth century and the rise and fall of family cycles of life. Many things we ve talked about in the last couple hours cycles of life challenges of adjusting to the world around you and it's just a very moving reflection. on the limits of human agency and how we all have to understand the circumstances were in and adjust to them and there's triumph and tragedy in that It's a wonderful novel. It used to be a kind of canonical work. It sort of fallen out now of big big novel, but I am very much by that I very moved by toasters, Warren peace. I sign that every year to my students at a big big book about what tolstoy challenges is he challenges the notion that a napoleon can rule the world and we're all little napoleon's right, we're all sort of thing. that we're gonna do. That reminds us: how much is contingency circumstance? It doesn't mean we don't have some control. You verse book to me

limit of russian. Where does it come from severe your appreciation? Tolstoy, but also billy's, beak, the russian was of resentment. So I speak. In addition, english, I speak reasonably well, depending on how much vodka I've had russian. I implore french and german. I learn, though, It's for research purposes. I learned french. Actually, when I was in high school russian, when I was in college german, when I was in graduate school now, I do have family and my mother sigh that's is of russian jewish extraction, but they were yiddish speakers by the time you know I met them by the time they had gone through germany and come the united states really got to poland and income the nicest they were yiddish speakers. So there's no one really in my family who speaks russian, but I do feel a connection there, least of a long range personal connection is there's something to be said the language and your ability to imagine history. Sarah when you study these different countries, your bill

to measure what it was like to be a part of that culture par that time. Yes, language is crucial to understanding a code. Sure and em. Even if you learn the languages, I have you learning russian in german and french. It's done same is also being a native speaker either as as you know, but I think lay which tells you a lot about mannerism about assumptions, ah, that the very fact that English doesn't have a formal eu, but russian has a formerly right v versus the right german has a formal. U Z, versus D write. So the fact that English doesn't have a formal you tells you something about americans ran is just one example: the fact that you know that german Have such a wider vocabulary for certain scientific concepts. then we have an english. Tells you something about the culture at language is an artifact of the cold.

The culture makes the language is fascinating to explore. I mean just exactly you just said, led the witches his family in transition, so anxious things regis have you but there's, there's a fastening transition that persist to this day is of our foremost among politeness, where it's an initial canada of interaction is when different methods- of signalling respect. I guess we don't. Then lay which provides a united in the english language. There's fewer tools to show that I respect which has potentially positive or negative effects on it, frightens society were like a teenager, could talk to older person, show like like it insta I mean, but at the same time I mean it creates a certain kind of dynamic, a certain kind of society- and it's funny to

it just takes. Those few words can have any like a ripple effect through the whole culture, and we don't have a history in the united states of of aristocracy from the air or the These are elements of language reflect aristocracy that the the surf would never refer to the master, even if the master's younger as t it's always very ready to enter again of it's always vibrate, I mean, and so it's That is why it tells you something about the history. That's. Why to your question, which was a great question, is so crucial to try to penetrate the I would also say something else, and this is a over many americans who have learned a foreign language were very bad, a teaching far languages. If you ve, never taught yourself a foreign language, you have cut yourself after certain kinds of empathy, because you have basically trains, your brain, to only look at the world. One way, the very active learning. Another language, I think, tells your brain that words and concepts don't translate one to one. this is the first thing you realize what we can say. You know these two words mean the same,

thing from two legs. They never mean exactly the same thing. Us. Vidalia is really not good, bye, vs right- and there's something you right now, there's people talking about idea lived experience, one of the ways to force yourself into this idea. lives experienced by learning of languages must understand that, but you can perceive the world in a totally different way, even or even though you pursuing the same thing and of course, the way too far. learn russian for those looking for The toil lessons for me is just like you said he star by drinking lots of. Ah, yes, of course, it is very difficult to do. Otherwise is their advice. You have four young people about, career about life in making their way in the world. Yes, the two things, I believe that I say to a lot of talented young people. First, I don't think you can predict what is going to be well renewal, rated twenty years from now, don't pick a profession because you think even

parents. My tell yours do this in your make money on the scene in the graduate where guy tells Dustin Hoffman going to plastics money of plastic if we don't know so many of my students now have parents who are telling them bright students. You know, go to the business school at sweets. That's what's going to set you up to make money if you're passionate about business, yes but don't begin by thinking. You know, what's going to be hot twenty years from now, you don't know, what's going to be hot from twenty years ago or twenty years from now, could you do? This? Is advice number one find what you are passionate about, because if you are passionate about it, You will do good work in that area if your talented and usually passion and talent, overlap and you'll find a way to get people to pay for it. and if you do it really well, people will want to pay that. That's where capitalism works. People will find it valuable right, whether it violin, playing right or engineering or poetry, you will fight, you might not become a billionaire that involves other things, but you'll find a way to get people to pay

and then the second thing is it really important. the very beginning of your career, even before you're in your job right to start building your networks, but networks are not just boy you're on facebook, whether twitter wait a minute, that's fine, it's silly, forming relationships and some of that can mediated in the digital world, but I mean real relationships. I like podcast, because I think they actually open up that space I know a lot of people can listen to a podcast and find someone else's, listen to that podcast, a conversation about a topic, it opens up that space build those relationships, not with people who, you think will be powerful. But people you think, are interested Because they ll do interesting things and ever very successful person. I know at some level a key moment where they got where they are because of someone. They knew for some other reason there who had that connection. So you

whose and spread your networks and make them as diverse as possible. Find people who are of a different party have different interests, but are interesting to you. Brilliant vices, some of the other. On the passion side, I do find that dumb as somebody who has a lot of passions, I find that the second part to that is commit committing. Yes, that's true, which sucks, because life finite and when you commit you say well, I'm never going to be good. like it, when you choose wanting to passions whether two things you're interested in your basically saying I'm letting go. I'm saying the sudan, you two are that's true, that's true, but is actually what does with Daniel means? Ninety five got. That's exactly right. I think that's exactly right. I think that's, I think you do have to make choices. You do have to set priorities. I often laugh at students who tell me they want to have like three majors if you're,

major to have no major right, I mean so I do think you have to make choices. I also think its import that, whatever you do, even if it's a small thing you do you ways do the best you can you always do excellent work. My kids are too, of hearing me said is at home, but I believe everything you do should be about excellence. The best you can do some are wash the dishes and will be the best person wash The dishes yeah right. If I'm going to write a book review on with worst the best possible workbook book you, I can't why, because you develop a culture among about yourself, which is about excellence yeah, I was the us telling off line about the kind of stuff Google fibrin, cable escalation of this. The I've been always a believer, washing dishes be people off Believe me when I say this, I don't care. What I do I am I am would do,

we foster wallace am unbearable. There is so much joy for me. I think for everyone, but Aquila, let to speak for me to be discovered in getting really good at anything, in fact, getting good at stuff that most people believe is boring or menial labour, or you know impossible to be interesting. That's even more joyful define the joy over the net and yet its third, your dreams sushi making the same footing Soussio were and are becoming, the master that that's read. That can be truly joyful news, a sense of pride and on the pragmatic level. You never know when someone will spot that and

intelligent people who perform at the level of high excellence. Look for others who, yes, I and a radio. Some kind of signal is weird: it where's. What europe! It's weird! What your tracked! You yourself, when you just focus on mastery and pursuing excellence in something like this, the cool thing, the body. That's the joy of really truly experienced enough to do much more. It's just cool people kind of I find myself in groups of cool people like really people who are excited about life with passion by life. There's the fire in their eyes. That saw you know at the end of the day, just makes life fun Some to end in also money wise, at least in this society, were fortunate to where, if you do, that kind of thing money will find a way. I have the great like I say this: they don't care about money. But- and here I have to think about what that means, because some people criticise years ago, that must be nice to see that they have for much money

It's my life had very little money, but I think in a society where not carry about money, but just focusing on your passions. If you truly presume excellence wherever that is, money will find you, as, I guess, the ideal of the capitalist system, and I think that the entrepreneurs I've studied it had the chance to get to know- and I am sure you agree with this day- they do what they do cause their passionate about the product. Here it they're not just in it to make money, in fact, that's when they get into trouble, we are just trying to make one you said your grandmother Emily had a big amp, on your life, she lived too hundred and to what are some lessons she d Emily. Who was the the child of immigrants from from. russia and poland who never went to college proudest day. I think was when, when I went to college she she trees? everyone with respect and tried to get to know him.

She knew every bus driver in the town, she'd remember their birthdays. And one of them she taught me is no matter how high you fly the lowest person. close to the ground matters to you, and you treat them the same way. You treat the billionaire at the top of the poem and she she did. she then just say that some people said, and I do it she. She really did that, and I always remember that comes up in my mind at least once a week, because rob is it doing a lot of things, and you either sea or even feeling yourself, the desire to just four for the reasons of speed to be short or not polite, with someone who can't do anything to I'm your right now, and I remember her saying to me now you you you, don't you you, you treat everyone with respect, you treat you know the person you, the phone with right customer service. You treat that person if you're talking to Jeff visa

we're talking, hail, elon, musk, right, ah, And- and I think making that a culture of who you are so important, and people notice that that's your thing. and they noticed when is authentic, everyone's nice to the person at the bottom of the pool tolerable, when you want to get ahead in the line for your driver's license, but are you nice to them when you don't need that they noticed that even when nobody's watching their has a weird effect on you. That's going to have a ripple effect and people now that's the cool thing, but the internet. I have comfortable that people see authenticity, they see when you're full of shit when you're, not the other thing. that Emily taught me- and I think we all had relatives- have taught us this right- that you could be very unanswered. added. She was very uneducated. She had a high school diploma, but I think she was working and you know it in a delicatessen in new york. You know, while she was in high school, We get gimbals or somebody, so she bought an into high school very seriously. She wasn't very well educated. She was very smart and we can all into a world where arabic

leave her in higher education and getting a phd in things of that sort, but where we think those are the only smart people Sometimes those are the people because of their accomplishments, because their egos are the ones who are least educated in the way of the world. These curious, Ultimately, wisdom comes from curiosity and sometimes getting up you can get away, I can get in. The way of curiosity is opposed to empower grassy. Let me ask from a historical perspective, you study some of human health So maybe of an insight about was the meaning of life,

Why do you ever ask when you look at history? The? Why yeah? I do all the time- and I don't have- I Don'T- have a. I Don'T- have an answer. It's it's the mystery that we can't answer. I I do think and what it means is what we make of it. There's no universal that every Every period I've studied next eyes a little bit of a lot of periods in a lot of a few periods. Every period people struggle of this and there's no, they don't come to wiser. Bull than us don't come to a firm answer except it's what you make of it. Meaning is what you make of it so think about, but what you want to care about and make that the meaning in your life. I wonder how that just throughout human history, weather as a cost it. I guess I often think so wednesday, evolution biology just see our origins from life.

And is it evolves, if it makes you wonder if it feels like there's a thread that connects all of it that were headed somewhere we're trying to actual eyes some greater purpose. You know like there. They cease to be a direction to this thing. We're all kind of stumbling in the dark trying to figure it out, but it feels like we and she will find an answer. I also yeah, maybe I do think we all we all want. Our families to do better. We are where we are familiar and family doesn't just mean biological family. You can have all kinds of ways you define family and community and I think We are moving. slowly and in very messy way toward a larger world community.

Include all a biological life and eventually artificial life as well as is so that these two are to expand the lesson the advice that your grandmother taught you is. I think we should treat but any I systems are good as well, even if their currently not very intelligent, because one day they might be right right. I think that's exactly right and we should think through exert its exact. We as a humanist, highroad approach that issue. We need to think through the kind, behaviour patterns. We want to establish with these new forms of life, artificial life. For ourselves. Also to your point, so we behave the right way, so we don't misuse this waste It talks about abraham, lincoln, ended talking about robots. I think this is the perfect conversation Jeremy. This is a huge honour. I love. Austin

I love you to Austin and I love the fact that you would agree to waste all your valuable time with me today. Thank you so much for talking to. I can't imagine a better way to spend a friday afternoon. This was so much fun and am such a fan of your podcast and and delighted to be a part of it. Thank you thanks for listening conversational, jeremy, surrey and thank you too element monk pack, they'll campo, forcing matic and a sleep check them out in a description to support the spot gas. And now let me leave you some words from franklin. was about after democracy. Cannot succeed unless those who expressed their choice are prepared to choose wisely. The real safeguard of democracy, therefore, is education. Thank you for listening and hope to see you. Next time