The following is a conversation jason kullak anas, whose not to procure investor author of angel, how to invest in technology start ups and, as many people may know, he's a fun brilliant long time. Pike ass hosts of this week and start ups and co host of the all in pot gas with Chamati Bala, habit, tat david sacks and David freeburg, who all happened to be poker bodies and self proclaimed best. These the result is always a great listen due to both the love and the heated disagreements. Quick mention of our sponsors, rave browser lynn owed, linux, virtual machines, forcing matic mushroom coffee

and rather speech attacks, service, quicker, sponsor links to get a discount and to support the spike asked as a side note, let me say that I have been learning a lot about real world finance in the past few months. Give you a bit of contacts on side have studied trading from an algorithm and trading active as a machine learning a game theory problem, often on for a few years and grab and grad school. I found the distributed complex system aspect, the finance and economics in general fascinating, but now I find even more fascinating the human side of the whole thing: ideas of greed, power, freedom and truth- was she bats, robin hood and the whole beautiful round. This topic allows us to have great conversations about human nature and the

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You can check out, however, Raza outperforms in a seven day, free trial at red, dot, ice, slash lex, that's an awesome euro! That's rather dot a iceland legs to tap into the world's most accurate, be J. I and now here's my conversation jason calacanis the I've, a million to talk to you about what we do happen to be living through what I would think of as historic event and in terms of its impact in terms of almost philosophically thinking about the role of people and how they can fight power with his whole wall street betsy,

Gazed observation as wondering you ve covered in your amazing olympic ass. You guys have been having fascinating battles over this whole situation. That was only if you could tell may be from your perspective as the sun rolling, saga wash your best engaged up. What are some interesting insides yeah you have about this whole set heads in full. Oh sure I was an angel investor in Robin hood before they launched and when I met the founder of lad and his partner, you know they pitched me at a bar not too far from where we are right. Now, in palo, alto called antonio's nut house, and friend of dale. It's really good story. My friend a day I had asked me to speak at his founder's institute, which is kind of like an accelerated four people were, are thinking about starting a company and so on. The talk and that he said he'd, let's go to antonius, not house and we'll meet you on for a drink.

and so elon met us drink there and its to divest of divers like you, take a beer. The image of all this the EU has already alone on the long the bark yeah I mean it is the worst bar in the peninsula. Like just garbage on the floor, or an like cheap beer and warm beer, and, like you, pick up your pint blasphemy, lipstick on it, its brutal classy, not your lipstick. You understand somebody asked his lips there s an so we're sitting there and vlad walks up with His partner, any says here think how a canvas- and I said, tell me about your start out. We said how do you know have started with the you recognize me. I mean that's the only way, and he goes is that you are mosque, and I said yes, he'll only come say hi and his split came over said harrison tell me what you do is work. What I said. What's that and he said quantitative analysis, and I was yeah. I know about that. That's, like you, guys, meek, algorithm

worms and then try to beat the marker adding sagacity she going to pitch me start up. Sell your algorithm to other people, and if it was, oh good, why wouldn't you just use it yourself in print money? He's again I no that's not our business, our businesses working to create now to get millennials to trade stocks and is an whom you do we as there's no retail investors any more like the dot com crash, plus the two thousand, a financial crisis eliminated. Many individuals, belief in participating in the stock market, and he said that the opportunity I said. Ok, I, like it, tell me more said. While we're gonna get these millennials to trade, I said the same ones who Live in their moms basements and take over and are on their already have no money got screwed and you know, went to address. Fifty came to debt for school and now can't get a job. Those people

and he's like yeah, I'm like okay, they have no interest in their future, but they're going to trade stocks. He said yet, as the opportunistic hattie, how you can make money when he said well, that's the best part. It's going to be free and I said to your ideas to get a group of people who have no interest in saving for their future to trade in your business models free, and he said yes, I said emin because in almost all cases the crazy outlandish ideas that nobody believes in are the ones that have the greatest returns. I mean uber, I introduced to buy twenty five investors and three of us said yes, so you know a full twelve percent of the community. I saw that dl decided to do it so that your sense about this idea of being good had to do with the fact that this guy was just the crazy, ambitious and bold thinking or was it that there's something here in the allowing a much larger magnitude of people to be able to be investors yeah the way too Would you really well as an angel investor or just intact? Oh gee or life is to not so

what could go wrong but to say what could go right and then to just a man, for a moment. If it does work. What would the world look like. And so when you always investing in tesla and some other guy we're hunting it and he was trying to save the company, and you know it wasn't. Is this gonna work? It was almost positively not going to work, it was, and he knew that, but if it does work, what does the world look like? And so that's really what you're looking for is not the chances of success, but if it does succeed, seed does exceed. What would that look like an you? That's what the world needs more people doing, and so, when you looked at robin hood, it was like well. If he does succeed, what would the world look like, and now we ve seen what looks like You have a generation who are so financially sophisticated.

that they know how to do, puts and calls and shorts and research at a level that dominated the hedge fund industry? So let's pause for a second, these trader sitting there on a sub read it in a discourse. Server are able to do analysis and research and then act in unison to say we're going to beat in them but hoods, hence bureau this group of sophisticated insiders who have more access and more access to capital. But we will figure out how to solve this problem, and you know things most things. Don't work is like the wikipedia like there's no eight, no way the wikipedia would ever work right. Except it did right like you're like how is this ever gonna work, your pain,

anybody, but its bought the largest corpus of encyclopedia ever so? I think Robin hood actually succeeded. Then what we saw was this system and a lot of the systems in our society in whether it's the political system, the constitution of the united states, education, higher education, we sure of opt in and then even the financial system. We have not stress test it and trust tested it, and we do not actually know all the edge cases and how it works. So tromp was able to just really put this crazy stress. Tests like it is that democracy going to hold a. We can break this two or three two hundred someone, your old experiment, and then we looked at the financial markets and it turns out there were more people shorting the stock, then stocks were in shares were available. I dunno how that's possible, and then I'm trying to uncover. Where can I see a list of people who have shorted the stock and is saying you can't, but we I tell tell you of how many every two weeks, or maybe twice a week we can create a report me but we know our support.

Is that nobody knows, though, is that people it was shorted and you guys have to figure that out. Yeah, there's no transparency and a lot of the systems and if you call to try to short a stock like it's almost like they'll tell you on the phone like. Let me see, I think I might know a guy who has shares to loan out. So it's like. Am I calling to like try to find like a seventy three mustang grown day. You know gold, you don't you call around its action. This be like on ledger somewhere and be completely transparent. So now we're seeing those things, and I think the investigations will make it super clear. But of course, in a vacuum without information there are so many investors in the start up stuff. conflict can start to appear, and then you know how it is with people in conspiracy there is the mine starts to wander right, and so, in some cases there is actually firstly and then another cases people's mine will fall in my opinion, some grand conspiracy. I can tell you robin hoods. Only goal is to get more people to trade stocks and to demand eyes it even more, and they would appear

me were on the brink of you know seizing as an as an entity. If they didn't get more money to cover all these trades, I mean they were on the brink and they raise three and a half billion dollars on like that in a week, yes, and so sense, robin hood enabled this very like the magic of this distribute a system of all she bats right is. Is it working? which is another probably one of my favorite websites and one of my favorite examples of like a distribution system, somehow coming together and away. Just like you said at that crappy bar you out, I guess they would never work, but if it does work, changes everything in dead and rob the hidden that same way, probably naval. There was one of the major neighbours of wash your best of giving power like in powering young kids to learn about how this whole messy financial system works and take on big elite, centralized players. Yes, I am

it's very easy when these companies get big one thing: that's changed is the footprint of these start ups and the velocity at which, grow. Something like air bnb is another perfect example of something that should really not work in practice, but it does like could have rent my couch, where my extra room to somebody like a serial killer or I'm gonna stay in somebody's house like a serial killers house, and you know that it really sound scary, but it actually works in it and it has not destroyed the hotel business it has added. So the best startups induce market to exist. If you look at you know, uber or rare, being bay, people replace their cars and uber was not competing. Ultimately, with taxes. They were competing with car ownership, public transportation, walking or just not going out.

and then you can ever be a lot of people staying in urban be would not be taking a trip to kyoto, if not for the fact that they could get a seventy five dollar beautiful room with great reviews in kyoto for three weeks. It inspires people and manifest a market, because the product is so transcendent right, and I think that's one of the things that robin hood did. You can't learn how to do this options, trading and puts and cause, and all this fish patients stuff, unless you actually do it, it's just too hard to learn, except in practice just like poker. We're gonna learn how to play poker, org, qatar or tennis or skiing, like. You can talk about it. You watch youtube videos, but it is, point you gotta get on the mountain. At a certain point. You gotta put some ships in the pot and it's gonna be painful like poker, is going to be painful. You're gonna lose a lot of money. This way you should play at the small tables first and you know, even in trading like you look at people who are doing this crazy rating and game, stop accompany that's worth, maybe a couple billion dollars for certain what tens of billions of dollars

Of course, the people who are throwing their money and last are gonna, lose it like everybody, knew that and so is a momentum play in their bedding against the hedge funds, so think it's good for people to learn and become financially illiterate and just always understand the concept of the risk of ruin, the good news, is for a young person. The risk of ruin might be like they lose five thousand dollars or something, and then they have to build their stack backup. But that's really there. The other day I am concerned about is there are people who will play girl, blackjack or sports betting, or whenever it is and lose control. Just like they're, my people who try alcohol and lose control, but we cannot build a system based upon limiting the average birth, behavior based upon somebody who can control. You know their ability to drink. You know two glasses of wine is have twenty. How does this whole thing and probably in tears? who here, whose crying is there really crank whose crying when driving

where some of the hedge funds outcrying initially there may be some of the watery bats. People who bought last would be crying and then eventually theirs in prague, billy another set of hedge funds, or even the wall street bets mob in that you're that army, some of them might have broke, ranks and then short of the stock. they are so nobody knows so everybody has to be aware of what is happening in the game so have wash. You bet said: hey, let's squeeze these hedge funds because they have too much short interest, let's all by the stock then some of the mighty said. Okay, you know I sat through two or three hundred dollars, maybe I'll join the short will, but now that they've covered and they could have shorted there and been like double agent. So people have to understand like this stuff is gnarly and it's a it's free for all I media is a literal. Free for all is a kind of morality like a big statement that you bet made in terms of like the elites can't just pushes around they can't boy around, but at the same time the other

making money right. Yes, it is, what's your sons, he said them, some of the people and wash your best might have broken In short, the stock. Try they more interested there. Isn't it urgent morality that emerged in certain said like we're not going to put up with decentralized elites, but. Is that going to continue? Are they going to fight the power structures that are bad for society? Are they to now, like me, are they ought to be going to introduce more chaos is going to do image the economy and damage the world or they're, going to continue being the good guys and fighting the day the evils that man, believe tat. The market was your sense, you know it. It really feels like the dark I'd series of films were like some people just want to see the world bird yeah. I think there is a contingent of people who, just literally, want to see chaos like you, No, that contingent on some of these you forums, who just want to create chaos. Writer

so there's there's, certainly that chaos contingent, but I think overall, what the arc will show is a group of people getting massively educated. You see it in crypto as well. There was like a three year period where All of these failed entrepreneurs who I knew who couldn't build companies were then coming back to me after their cause. Greece has failed or after they gave up or couldn't clear market raising money with the venture capital community, and they were doing. I was like I met you before arriving like yea. I know I'm doing an ic. Oh now, I'm like okay where's, the company out there, like here's, a white paper and outside this white paper, which in areas in it that says you're going to story are being b, because everybody's apartments, gonna, be I'm immutable ledger like would not be better. a regular database that was private, had not public like. Why does it need to be an immutable ledgers use? It can't change my not changing the databases of feature. That's that does not seem like a good feature and they couldn't explain it.

Well, just people are interested myself and it was that I see oh mania in what it showed was there global appetite for risk. People want to try I knew things. This is one of the great things about the human spirit is one of the great things about capitalism and one of the things that concerns me most about where ant society is sort of socialism, communism, he'd entrepreneurship Bad technology is bad and polarisation of wealth, and we know people getting rich is a bad thing when I grew up on fifty now, but when I the gen xers growing up. We kind of maybe too much idolized bill gates and people who are doing interesting things in the world and with capitalism was a force for good. I still believe. Capitalism is a force for good because when a group of people built a product or service that changes the world and it and it gets globally, distributed whether it's tesla or spacex, or google or air bnb or uber, or robin hood yo, everybody gets to bed.

fit from that product or service having to compete, and if you look at the places where there is no competition like public education or less no perfect, you know you know, established a no colleges summit that less competition for accreditation degrees. things tend to get a little weird Dante and people tend to be protected and that's not good, unique, any competition, does it mean that you know people shouldn't have global health care, or does it mean that we should have a safety net, but we need to keep capitalism vibrant, especially because china has now co, opt to capitalism in created their own version of capitalism, which has come elysium with capitalism effect, is weird operating system like we still want to keep communism, so we can take any of your gains at any time, but we like to be entrepreneurial, and then you have somebody, like you know, the founder of Alibaba jack ma who disappears for a couple weeks whose that

whose jack mock he kind of disappears for a couple weeks, many comes back and he's really sorry about the things he said and then he disappears again and like you don't, we have to be very careful of china wins capitalism. This is gonna, be an existential threat for humanity. The chinese are no joke, I mean there are certainly focused, and they are picking the winners is the very worst system, because it is in fact I don't you call it. They. Communism captain said, shall overloaded terms, but they do encourage entrepreneurship, but they and they do a good job of it. Oh, yes, what? But then there are like there like the surveillance thing in their controlling things in a way, it is it's weird because it seems to work really well for them in the short term. Yes, steadily got short term benefits So the question is like what what went the gets, distorted

because what was worse, which potentially might be- and I think on the the entrepreneurial spirit you have a pike, ass, all centre, entrepreneurial spirit. It is one, the magical things that makes this country great. I dont know if money is deeply thailand to that. I do get by thereby people, he asked treating them. billionaires if as a bad word here, but in general, like all the hard things, the difficult things were going through in this country. It seems like the way out is going to be making the the entrepreneur or the hero of society, of like letting that young kid with the big dream and the guts to take the big red the belgian deterring you make in giving them a chance and wherever that involves at our biggest about tax, is our biggest

lake regulation all this stuff is about us and just public discourse, saying that that kid that girl that their bad asses like encouraged them to do it. We have to have people buy in to the fact that they have that, opportunity. Having one of the problems in society is, there is a group of people who actually don't believe that they can succeed, or they dont believe even more perniciously, that other people can and that's the the group of people that I think are highly vocal. But a small group of people which are generally people of incredible privilege, rich parents, white city dwellers. Liberals. They kind of look as eight poor. People cannot change our lot and there their battling in their minds to protect poor people in, but they have this very weird, patriarchal kind of approach to it, which is saving.

If they're not capable of changing their lot in life and they're like it's not possible and then once in a while I'll tweet, something where say you know, it's really incredible that every piece of college you could possibly want, is now available for free on youtube and every course from mit, and harvard and Stanford is available at acts or corcyra, and all that information is their free available and you could take the lectures. This is amazing, and then people be like yeah, but people don't have access to it and what they do is free, here's them, inc and the like yeah, but they don't have internet and, unlike here's, the chart of internet, nutrition in america like, and I will poor people don't have internet, and am I really find me any down trotted person without a smartphone with a high speed connection that capitalism provided for twelve dollars a month or fifteen thousand. I think it's very hard to find that, and we have it so well in this country and there so much opportunity, but

People don't believe it in an that's. Actually one of the problems you, the average american, still watched for five hours of television a day and often me people there like. I need a technical co founder and I I you know audi, does a million dollars and I'm like okay. Well, what is your skill and they don't have a skill and I'm like? Well? Are you a designer? No or your product manager know, are you develop or no are your sales executive know? Can? What are you like what happened yeah. Well, as my friend said, the horse, I think your friend is well says, like every has like a million ideas in our you, don't really get credit. Those, even when you're asleep your idea, spewing ideas like zero credit, your ideas, it's all about execution, I believe that you yourself can be the core that execution. You yourself can build the thing in every no matter? What your circumstances are. You could talk about like structural racism, knowledge, as a things that very bad out. But from the individual perspective, when you just a coaching or giving advice in individual

it can literally change the world on a wall street bets as an indication of that in the financial space that you yourself can have, can the world that that's why these countries is amazing, all the basque country in the world right at me still, is amazing the opportunity provided to people all this educational experiences online and the ability. What I tell you people who are looking for advice. I sent you know: you're the skill me too refined ability to learn new skills like if you become good, at learning, a new skill and tim ferris front, It is really pioneer this like he can get to sixty or seventy percent of, like the knowledge in a scale in some incredibly shropshire time. I'm not saying you become a virtuoso, drummer or grey basketball player, but tim and I were on vacation together in the liberal group vacation in italy in there was a basketball court and I must go with social groups, I never should chopper and I think I ll take my love. Shall teacher and tim is fat

The uncoordinated people. Don't know this like he trying to dribble bob basketball into a lay up and it looked like he had a blindfold on. I mean you ve, never seen something as elegant, then tim ferris doing a layup in basketball, and then he watch me do a three or four times, and I watched him study me and I listen. I have been playing basketball in brooklyn since I was a kid. I got a couple moves and He was just taking notes and taking note and taking notes, and by the end of a couple of hours of doing this, I could just watch him checking his form and figuring it out that every skill in the world now and what I tell people is like I'm like have you? Did you watch game of throne, and the like yeah, you watch breaking bad again like k. That's about four hundred hours. How about you don't watch them. to, and you put that forty hours into learning how to be a graphic designer a: u s, person a developer, whatever it is.

And learn how to add skills. That's what I did my whole life. I was a kid from Brooklyn went to school at night, but I was very quick to get to be fifty percent of the knowledge base of graphic design or being a writer or being a sales executive, whatever it was developed for, even when I was just good enough to not have people be able, bullshit me like when I heard them, and that was a big unlock. When you know enough that people can't know you, that's a really good one and look at yourself like me, you figured out how to set up an entire park as people. Don't this, but but you don't have a team around I've. A team of like five six people were so my bunkers receive unknown enough about to set this up. You would, and be able to hire a team correct and you'll be able to call them on their bullshit. If, if you're not do a good job- and that's really important- and I don't know that much about this whole thing- but I know enough to be able to see who knows their stuff or not you absolutely in the process of law, how to learn is as essential there because I,

however, I did martial arts digits and so on and its sofa you why I did take. What do you think? I know that some it's funny that there's some people do and activity for years, because to serve. A labyrinth of you were saying about. Ours is not always amount of ours is the quality that you Peter, deliberate practice, which is just doing some have you. I mean little adam. Playing chess and and trying to get that going again if you're watching queen's gambit and I got stuck on the court, I realized I was just playing and I'm not getting better and then I was like. Oh wait. There's a little analysis feature here: dot com will show you your blunders and mistakes, and I'm like oh I'm spending no time reviewing my losses in chess and I just want to play the next game. I should really review these losses and figure out what mistakes I made in my started. Doing that as I go, I'm getting better prices of deliberate practice really,

and if you wanna take it all the way my mangas karlsson, shut out to the guy has an app, but as a few other coaching apps, where you like focus on the end game, you focused drilling or particular You basically don't play the game at all. You just for some drilling than a different era, integrating the game, yeah and there's different kinds of puzzles, so you can really make it into a deliberate practice not to make this episode sponsored by chess dot com, but they literally have puzzles yeah. So I was like oh and it's one hundred dollars a year for this product, and I just thought to myself: this is capitalism. You don't need to charge you a hundred dollars an hour for a lesson. They can charge you a hundred dollars and they ve created the ability for you to play chess twenty four hours a day against opponents were perfectly matched again you based on your rating and analyze every game, and they happen. And they have tutorials and they've got everything else. It's like just think about how much

value is being provided to society because of capitalism and because competition, if you want things to get better- and you want to step up your game- just make it slightly competitive, it is one of these things in human existence that is so powerful, full utter a the Michael Jordan documentary, the last dance of like half of it, so why meter he so competitive and petty. It's so inspiring that before the cares about is just wit, the level of which he literally there's like those running mean. I took that personally and I took that percentage you see me images of him sitting smoking a cigar at like an ipad or a video clip- and it's like I took that personally and you can make a supercut of every time he took something. Personally. He literally takes everything personally to give him by competitive motivation, to win hats, capitalism, and when people are competing. Man look at what you did to that. The the space of cars like every

They were literally laughing at him. In the first ten years, electric cars ha ha that company without a business. and now every single company is like we're going fully electric by twenty thirty five and he kicked. Ass is so brutally that they had no choice but then to step up their game and that We want right and this virus in this pandemic. I think that the great the thing that will come out of this horrible experience that we have all had psychological death learning to so many bad things heard the economy, people losing their jobs, but we also got to see the here. spare with his m rna vaccines and just how? If we, look out. Some of the regulation and people are super motivated. We might, she be able to eliminate all pandemics, from ever happening again and before that bill gates was banging his fist and Jeff school was doing the movie contagion emmy for two decades. People have the benefits we have to

prepared for this and every care whatever yolo I am, and now it's happened everywhere like we need to be able to destroy every you know pandemic virus before it happens in europe. We listen I know a lot more about science and I do but these emma Emma renee has been around for a while. We ve just never gotten aggressive about doing it and then you think about challenge trials. Have you been following this, but they're doing I trials now in the uk this month where their introducing covered into healthy young patients and then giving them the vaccine or one off, and that is against all yeah. rules and regulations about you know, do no harm, but then you think about it. We can celebrate people jumping out of planes and get that one guy alex Honolulu climbing up mountains without a rope and they give him a northstar. You know back page in a better and as you know, an endorsement deal and we celebrate that we celebrate people serving with sharks. We celebrate people doing.

Well being we pay them actually go two hundred feet. On a well stuff and people do dangerous stuff all day long astronauts, but we will soldiers, firefighters, but we won't let people well get paid to beat to a challenge trial that will rarely risk averse in certain areas or complete the making sense testament- and this is where the world needs, the the we we could have said these thousand people, young people who no one in all likelihood not going to have a bad outcome, but there's a possibility does a fossil move but its very low and it certainly lower than riding abortion its lower than right emotions. People write more cycles everywhere. We have ads for motorcycles. We could have just said to those aspects. give you a million dollars each to do this. Ok, there's your billion dollars, we we're printing trillions of dollars a money to deal with, as if we had just done a thousand people for a million dollars each to do a challenge I'll in march.

April may, when they had the Mrm and a vaccine's ready, we could have deployed the vaccines in the summer. We would have been done with this would have been over by now. So we get to challenge all of that thinking. I think that's what the plus did its letting everybody challenge that thinking is what do we have? That will look, Yet we don't want to have people like give up their organs for money like we. Obviously understand, but there's a reasonable discussion about. Well, maybe there's level of risk in a global pandemic and we fought the nazis right. We defeated the nazis that that took a lot of debts to do that, but we had to kill that. This is another evil which we must fight and it's going to result in wits already, resulting in thousands of people dying a day, but we could have actually stopped at earlier if we just had a reasonable discussion this. Why podcasting as a respect? What you do is why intel and people are so drawn to pack ask you and I can expand on this and not cancel each other over this very suggestion. Why make this again?

per challenge trials reasonable or not. If I will do, on twitter. They, like oh callicratidas, wants to give poor p Oh corona virus in order to save rich people say no, I didn't say that, but what we do I could have a regional discussion about a challenge trial, something we should consider in eight acute situation where millions of people are lose our lives. So you know that's an eggs, ample of capitalism, competition worker really well. There there's one of the two me sad thing to see about grown viruses that, for example, testing at scale should have it seems obvious. I was a little clues about it, but because I thought there's no way you can have like antigen tests at hundreds of millions like order hundreds of millions of them and make him cheap. But actually I realized recently that there have been available since about like may yeah you were able to in korea in Finland and all over the place you could have done mass manufacture so there

there's a little bit of a failure of our capitalism, to step up and I don't know if you agree with this, but it seems that the blame to boot They said the regulators and the Then there are various institutions. Crony capitalism, in all likelihood, is what stopped it here. In america I mean I had friends who had imported them from other countries. The testing kits and you've probably been to parties where people had these. testing kids from other countries and we're sitting here and there just approving them now really in february month, a web of the pandemic in america. We're gonna have testing online really I mean. Even if these tests were eighty percent, you no effective in their ninety five percent, effective mass producing them. We should have sent them. You know in every postal anybody with. post office box should have what we do with mailing address should have had ten put their mailing address just for free from the government, and then everybody would be test and we would have contained it. We don't have test and tracy and united states while the countries that

on the other side of covered. Did it by having testing tracing in closing their borders and masks the combination that works, the the problem, the coroner virus is while there's a lot of massachusetts did not behave their best. It's also the case that there is a lot uncertainty said I didn't give a little bit of a pass to everybody. involved for the uncertain We were all I might give him until june, I wonder how history will remember this period and I'd love to ask you, because you are an early investor and robin hood in user of urine a very a nice place of being a huge supporter of the sort of wall street bets yuck kind of distributed power of the people and at the same time, because of you, you being the investor like intellectually giving a chance Robert had in this kind of chaotic time of conversations about like well worded

they do right where they do wrong. The erika about you and the whole thing which is really nice. Is there we ve talked about what Robert did write, the I think, can you ah serve steel man. I'd your mother's arguments of what robin hood did wrong. In the last few days, you I'm in their communication is always the number one issue at the start. Ups right and if you you have to get ahead, Then any problem- and you have to put all the bad news out immediately and in the case of robin hood, it seems based on the euro, has been in the papers and robin hood said publicly said they had this kind of liquidity crisis right where they were being because of these exchanges telling him you have to put up this amount of money and collateral and then being pen that number one in the app store, there were so many people trying to buy five shares of the stock. Five shares of this means thought that a kind of broke their system- and the people who clear the trade for them. They said you gonna put up a billion dollars to

in all three billion dollars, we can't do that overnight and I think that they were uncomfortable situation of going on tv, and saying we will acquitted crisis like be like a run on the bank. Everybody then logs in at the same time, to robin hood and tries to sell every sure they own, because they're afraid that the whole thing's going to collapse rates are. I think there was just kind of like black swan event and they probably didn't communicated all that well at the centre of that This is really interesting, maybe and comment on the nature of communication. Vlad, the sea, oh yeah, the game at the bar jezreel. I think at the centre of the communication if that elon is an example of a guy. Who also is at the center of the communication for his particular set of companies and that you know on twitter. it you to a really powerful way to communicate, and there is something this is me saying there is thing about vlad- that sir, they'd like he's hiding stuff. They fear, as

to you on it doesn't sound like he's hiding stuff. It could be the nature, the the beat the timing of the conversation simply with exactly marquis mug zack about for some reason, often sounds like he's hiding something here and there jack dorsey as much less so yeah know what that is about the ceos. It may suit trust them and not maybe the pearl point in time like it of escape velocity, you know there might be nondescript, measures in place that we are not aware of where they are not allowed to talk about our relationship. I see and in the end that results, including gladdens case and there, I'll, send you being like acting with. We're on our lives and more nervous you how it could just be the person is nervous, you know, so it's really hard to be building one of these companies and you're at scale, and you know, oh, my lord, the entire things coming apart and you're the most hated person for that day you know how the rage cycle works and the media is just.

how crazy, when they get their hooks into something I saw it happen with were. We sort have with facebook and even tesla there were times when all this people did stupid auto pilot insignia. Ok, somebody's watching the movie and sleeping in their car or leaving the driver's seat against all the rules of auto pilot and somehow tassels responsible for that, as we have people who stand on top of motorcycles and drive down the road on a motorcycle, I don't blame yamaha for or harley davidson for some idiot standing on the seat of their motorcycle on a highway going sixty miles an hour. We just say that person's an idiot, but when new technology comes out We blame the technology, not the person operating it and if you, You are going to operate. What would they vilified and demonizing that that is part of the night when the person at our member era can be. We always thought what, if somebody trashes your apartment, and they sure enough

methods rented this poor woman's apartment. She left all of stuff in it and then a bunch of methods, padded drug party destroyed her apartment, ripped up or photos, and when Craig and we knew that they would happen, but nobody remembers it now, but it was the number story on every news channel because by that's an exciting story, and I just thought to myself- I wonder if there are any parties in hotel rooms, without arms, being trash and people are doing drugs and on increasing thanks? Yes, that's basic, every hotel, in los angeles, but right now is being destroyed by some rock bed. That's throwing a tv out the window like we expected in you know a hotel. We just did fact in summer house, where there are being abandoned, araby be created, rules around he can't rent a near being before a party and they and so I think, there's a learning curve of these companies and they do get to scale at a level that is unprecedented and used to take dec for a company become an international phenomenon. Now it happens in two three. Four years I mean look at club,

This thing went from being your private beta six months go to being the number one app in germany and in japan, and here I just like that boom and its because there's an ecosystem that has never existed the appstore than theirs amidst all mine, everybody, and then everybody has a supercomputer in their pocket when we think look out wrong about entrepreneurship. Technology business. You know over the last couple decades was just how big the market was, and then how quickly you could you know we achieve. relevancy in these markets. We thought the market, was like: the sixty million homes or broadband in originally. like maybe ten or twenty, and it became sixty million then I was like okay. Well, how many? How many hours are you at your desktop computer will like probably at our computers for five hours a day ten hours a day at the three hours a day on round and then get nobody's on just how computer everybody's on their mobile phone and oh by the way they haven't. We

so the people with mobile phones, are now using this high speed device with an app store with their credit card, In the early days, the internet people were scared to put their credit card, the internet that was considered a really dumb. to do you put your credit card, the internet, you're gonna, lose all your money, they're gonna, they're, gonna hack, you whatever, and now it s just amazing. to me how quickly, when a company hits how quickly it can get to a million subscribers or ten million, or a billion users right and and there's all these networks, like social networks that allow the spread of the viral spread of like a new start up a new company and you asked me to be an anti semitic. Any there was an idea apart Austria, greece, single thing. It just says a single me, which was speed. A club, One would think some interesting things, but there were there

the magical moment. Vlad new line on club has- and I was wild gas- is a gift thoughts about that interaction with which felt like us. So me asked- of this whole situation feels like totally novel surreal. defining world. The era is yet I get a billionaire the riches human on earth, interviewing- that person at the centre of one of the most interesting mass scale leg, power battles in finance ever now, perhaps This is why the way seven movies have been sold and two weeks a stick about half past things from within legs. This thing happens, like people had the idea to short the stock six months ago, they start doing their research, they build an army, they d execute. The trade system goes down robin hood, raises three and a half billion dollars in four days. Eels

is interviewing them on clubhouse on sunday, after the wednesday it happened, and now here we are its ten days later there does. It feel like it's been ten months, it's been, days lacks has been ten days. Ten, I hate or like a new president. All these things that eta, forgot like why was in its directed by the way. We also hope that a revolution at the capital, where a bunch of crazy people who have ones and body armor and then a bunch of them Just yo lowing in cosplay, took over the capital was in the other, more drama the thing to me is that was one month ago that was one month in the press that the president united states got banned. From every major social network and which I think can still deeply in trouble parlor being removed from a w S that changed the way that changed a lot of things as somebody who's an aspiring entrepreneurs, they changed the way

I see the world that little, I maybe I'm being over dramatic, but no you're, not. I think, you're paranoid for a reason, you're paranoid for a very good reason, which is as big as these companies can become. They are beholden to the mob and if the mob says hey, this person needs to be cancelled, they're going to get cancelled because you can't lose your entire audience. You can lose your whole customer base and you can lose all your employees. I think what interesting about your fear- a parlour and a ws take him off as we went from being like a social network which, as you know, the software lair and then we went to like the infrastructural ere. You know though even go after like cloud flare which has a cd and provide or are they just like a plumbing. You know it's sort of like the telephone, so we were basically holding everybody. responsible and the whole chain of events. Here. What that's gonna do is you know, I'm not a huge believer in crypto but distributed computing.

Where nobody in decentralized and distributed computing platforms and opens under its parkinson's and open standard. The web is an open standard. Ftp was an open standard, but twitter and you know facebook or closed and what's gonna happen. As we will see, a group of individuals create peer to peer network for social media, where nobody can control it and the same for cloud computing, where there's there's a crypto project Everybody will and I invest in a company that tried to do this and got sold and did work out. But take your hard drive on your computer at home. You give terrified of your ten terror by drive over to the cloud, and then everybody else does terrified and then all of a sudden you ve got this virtual cloud at anybody can store stuff on it at all. Scripted and that nobody can stop it and that could be tweets. It could be videos- and so this idea that you know you too we'll be able to tell people to kick people off, because their sceptics of

I do know the pandemic or the vaccine or leave. You know take things that are more censorship resistant. I think that'll be the reaction to all of this. What this is my question for you gone back to that crappy bar and people pitching you it is. Is there do like with clubhouse? Do you see competitors? Do you think it's possible that another, perhaps more decentralized or another kind social media will emerge that will take on twitter and facebook and might be able to replace an a if you look at the whole landscape, yeah, ah with club house and everything else, I think some other company might emerge, they'll be ten versions. Clubhouse we looked at social networking without friendster. Was it my friends, was so good. Nobody be able to compete with others growing so quickly and that myspace was juggernaut and they had a remain a revenue and a hundred million users and was like well, that's came over and then facebook and linked in and snapchat and friend, feed and countless others, you know said, is usually twenty people who will win in a category.

An eighty percent of the category will be on the top two or three players, but were those players changed? You think your says, oh yeah, sure I mean if we, if Facebook had bought instagram, it would be accompanying decline right now. People will be short in the stock right. Facebook peaked in them was sort of cutting down in history. If a man what's up save themselves, that's another kind of weird moment in history, that they were able to accumulate, that much power solid much power insurrection and never sold to them. They should have on public edges, raised money from sequoia and pain, fifty million dollars out of five hundred million dollar valuation. They didn't need to sell, and there was a big mistake to sell, they should have kept going and it should take took on facebook and if instagram was gentlemen, computer and I'd be worth five hundred million dizzying, rebellion. Yeah. Do you think a facebook? My bike club house has been, or they'll probably copy it. I mean Zuckerberg has no moral compass or ethics or anything I'm his marauder. I mean he basically copied snapchat seven times like you

how can you just kept trying and trying and trying, as per the reason why the what's up founders, the assyrian founders, laughed ass? They found soccer work so distasteful, in terms of his ability to copy what what would you think makes it a great leader in that sense, gus. Ok, so when I look at Zuckerberg, birth rate is Great, I see I've got a big isa grimly. I was born sean I was excited by facebook in the very early days, I thought it was an exciting opportunity to connect people and stuff started going wrong. Certain kinds of ways and again and maybe it's our human nature by I should a lot of that to the leadership absolutely, and I mean the guy started it because he was unable to ask girls if they were single and on a date I mean those is excluded. good morning where there could be a glad we got em in the south, the motivation of eighteen nineteen year old men, his gag, pretty clear, just try, he had no game. He had no game

I needed to know who is single, so he could. You know at least have a shot at getting the creepy hello, creepy yeah. You know he he I think was so asked with engagement and winning and he's he's come like one of those friends you have, which is really good at playing a video game, but maybe doesn't see the bigger picture. Life It is a reason why everybody who worked for him hates em and doesn't talk to many more and then actually derives him like is so me, is the people who sold what's up to him, then back to other projects telegram and set horrible things about it on the way out these that we made millionaires there they really don't like him. So there is something that he does. That does not breed loyalty but he's very sick. Ass well, in his focus, which is growth, is all that matters. She's a marauder and taking friction at a products and processes is the play of silicon valley for last decade or too. So, whatever the actually true what you're saying I use biggest so fast that are almost forget that year, your dropping bombs

so removing the removing friction and using facebook is exceptionally good and he was the best at it. I mean at but they were like we're gonna, take out tipping we're take out the need for you to take out your credit card payment. It's just gonna, be in your wallet. You got picked up, you leave, that's it I was like we should have tipping and they're like it adds a step and we're trying to have no steps. You put your address in you clicked the button and you do nothing else, and We ve been obsessed here in southern valleys. How many clicks can we take out the process? I guess amateurs credible as well. Absolutely one click was the start of it and then you look at clubhouse as an example. You open club house and you see rooms, you click on it. You listening so in one click, listening and then in one click view, raise your hand. We get invited, and you say yes, you're speaking, so it's two clicks to speak. One click to listen there the there is the only way they could make that up. Work even faster. If you it up in your microphone was turned on and you which is set at the center

gary, but that is the next evolution and what happens when you go that fast? He's? U get unintended consequences, and so what this is? Why facebook? had more finds that any company in the history of silicon valley, just giant fines for doing stuff like that and one of them was remember when they created groups or if you have a group for your podcast, but you know you can just people to a group without their permission? And there was this famous case when they first came out with it. Somebody created a nimbler, fake group national? love boys. This issue would have her like. I had a feeling is essential and they added sucker bird mike airing turn myself in my twenty other famous people and silken valley hand out like, and then someone takes a screenshot, I been there like you're in ambela and I'm like no facebook. Last year, then Zuckerberg's response was well. If your friends put you in that nam, le groupe, you should get new friends and it was like you got put in there too yeah

and then the sat part about it was there were a group of young men who were gay and who are in college, and there was a gay choir in their college and the person who is coordinating their facebook group added them ass, a sucker It wasn't enough for to make it so but it could everybody's any group because it will grow faster level. You have to confirm. You wanna be added to the group, but it also did was hosted on their walls to increase engagement and what they inadvertent. Did, was they out at a bunch of eighteen, ninety year olds in college to their families, because join the game and squire at some college. He- and this is the kind of way, this is where silicon valley needs to check itself into do better. Is you have to really think, while there is more incentive to grow faster and then there's what's right for society and individually. I think it through think it through. This is sometimes very difficult This is where vision is required to anticipate the unintended consequences.

It seems like mark Zuckerberg is not very good at the eight you've talked to so many great leaders in this world private land and publicly? What do you think makes a great leader of these tech companies. It is due. Example again you on to you a great leader, he's also controversial one right: there's room is alive and hang controversial says that there is, I know a lot of people who work with him for him that there's also love hate relationship that the hay comes from the fact that they get pushed extremely hard. It's it's a very competitive environment. Butts It puts a positive one because it does a view in that underlies similar, the steve jobs thing. It has to do with the bachelor, Michael Jordan, discussion as well, that there seems to be is, did men's involved intention and just

anxiety, are those causes things. If you want to do great things, there will be some suffering in you know it they'll be some pain and it's not easy. If you want to change the world and then some people have this expectation that it's going to be easy and what you'll typically fine for any great leader who is trying to do something. Super ambitious like if you want to be like view Guy and you start like a restaurant, and you don't care about making money in people may restaurants before like you could be high. Five and everybody can love. You whatever but you want to change the world. You wanted you something hard driving, there's gonna be sacrificed involved, and so the problem is people are looking at something that is in a limp, dick caliber sport or a navy seals like effort, in other words, an effort that requires a massive sacrifice. We would not look at somebody who wins ago, metal like Michael felt.

say, oh my god, he had to get up at four a m every day and he had to swam and had to do an ice bath. Oh my god that poor guy he suffered, he was tortured. He p. well, were super mean to him. They put em a nice bath. As I know he wanted to be the greatest swimmer of all time, and he knew what the sacrifice in town and then what happens in work in business is that people conflate, lay Oh, I went to work to make a living to pay my bills, verses, Michael Phelps, approach to getting gold medals or Michael Jordan, or pick the person, ilan or jeff basis, and when you look at the reviews of like a place like amazon, there was this incredible story in the new york times or people. Will I dunno? If you remember it, this is the worst place. You could ever work amazon and they we talked to two hundred people and they all told us they all described for us in the new york times a culture of cut throat, nixon brutality that has never before been seen, and then you see all the

People who work for basis for twenty four years from when they graduated with there ba until today, and they ve never left the company and They are right or die forever and what you're seeing there is. There is a mismatch of people going to work in an extreme play a sport outward. dream endeavour who should not do that? There are people who should go go out into the rice fields and pick rice and then there's another group of people who are samurai and who wield a sword and who take on missions that are dangerous. But if you are a rice packer and that's what you do and you feel safe just you know getting a couple of grains arise, put them in a basket cleaning it, and then you know whatever that. That's valid work, no big deal, I'm not deriding it I am sort of, but that is one group and then there's people who are samurai and you can. You cannot conflate the two. You cannot compare the two and

that's what is happening right now in business. Whenever you see these stories about this person at this company is a tyrant you're, so horrible may yelled at somebody like. If you are in the field and your taking the beach in normandy and its d day, or you know you got the hell. You got a wacko Sama bin laden and you're the navy seals and like a rudder, roadway, gets knocked off. The back of the black hawk like this is serious shit like dont. Do it if we're, not serious yeah, and if you're not serious, about changing the world. Why would you go work for basil? Why would you go work for elon musk? Don't do it don't go work there? This is. This is a. I am just sit back and enjoy the beauty of all of that that that's music to my ears, but I'm not sure what to do with it, because I it count is conflict. Thing to a lot of things. I hear from the way you're supposed to kind of act in his eye. I think dinner, You do great things you have to. I

was admired, people that lose their shed a little bed because they're so passionate hand and let you know- apologize and all those kinds of things, but like there's attention, there's a drama to the creative process when in the early start up you're, not yet. This is not like the work life balance idea, doesn't even apply work, life balance, thridded! Guess it's ridiculous concept, like the idea that there's like work life balance in a start up is ridiculous. If you're looking for work life things, do not go to start up or any kind of ambitious company. There is a series of places you can work in the world where you do not need to do Anything more than once put in front of you and you just put round peg and round hole on the square bags were hall Paul and you go home and you get you're. Like you know, you get your little, you know bits. Grains arise in you. You go he'd emma bonino, that's it then there's

the thing which is the extreme pursuit of changing the world and sacrificing and we have a generation of people of multi generations of people who are soft they're. Just soft I mean what is the big struggle we ve had deal with in america. In our lifetimes, like nine, eleven and we'd, we didn't have the vietnam war, and then we had this like weird iraq, wars in middle east wars that were kind of like a small number of people. When we sent drones like we have not had to sacrifice janet sirs mina- maybe the talented boomers experienced the vietnam war. Regrettably, but you know we ve a couple generations now three. I guess that just haven't had to suffer, and so were soft ass americans were so and then you look at people in china and we're like. Oh, my god, Poor chinese people are living, tiny cramped apartments like they were living in like actually lean two's in northern china? With no running water or like one spirit of ice, cold water for the entire village, like their thrill to be joining the middle class. Even

the bottom of the middle class right they ve taken hundred millions of people in china and move them into the middle class and like oh, my god. These people are suffering the other after four, dollars an hour for effort as an hour in the factories there in they were just two decades ago. At you know, I don't know it was probably fifty cents an hour Something crazy like that, and now they ve improved, quality of life there. So much just like america too, five years ago a hundred years ago. They even proved itself much in china that now they're getting out price for factories from vietnam, sri lanka, pakistan india and people are movie and people in china a moving the factories out of china into other countries. The chinese are now outsourcing to vietnam and other countries. So this the way of the world. You know people move up and they get a better lot life for their families. Interest in amerika. We ve gotten soft and is a generation. We had people die in america, suicide, obesity,

heart attacks, anxiety. I mean we're suffering from things that have you told four hundred years ago that the number of the top ways americans would die would be over eating and suicide table like what you are killing yourself or eating yourself to debt. That's what's happening in america and anon everybody, not everybody and masters the large number of people who have become software softer capitalism. An environment where there's people still step up myths that with a beard cream and challenge the dimensions and that he was Burgess rise above. That is yours example that dodger bases example countless countless up and and they push in all the limits of those of you. Things that are willing to step up. And you know I I did, I think, about sort of how to a company that that, amidst all of the softness, still raise a revolution. It's not. It doesn't seem trivial things like

You both a culture that once healthy but also, unhealthy in the world at its own monitoring pursuit is its while top down get the everybody just twin: u s early! What leadership wasn't in advance of the question? I think we owe it leaders do as they set the ample they set the bar and if you look at someone like ilan meter were personal friends for twenty years. And he is indefensible- well, like I mean the guy, has stamina, that is just phenomena like he does not get tired. He works relentlessly and he sets that standard for the rest, the team I think you know basis is very sharp and likes to debate stuff and is very. Can you know, and jobs was just in case double at design and figuring out how to bridge that gap. Religious leader set the standard they set. The standard

You know that your time is over as a leader when you can't set the standard and that's when you have to pass the baton and basis, did that brilliant and basis now is saying you know what I'm fifty seven, I'm the richest guy on the planet. Depending on the weak, and I would like to do some other challenges but I dont want to grind it out at amazon for another twenty five years I want to do the things, and so we pass the baton and that's the hoping to do in that regard. you think, there is a time period in which you can run that hot and then point you have the then change. Just like an athlete might go to be a coach right. in or commentator answer you know, being an entrepreneur is brutal, its in seven days a week twelve hours a day, anybody who says in any differently is killing themselves. You're gonna have to sacrifice if you and this competition in amerika has to fight. If america does not win capitalism in china does. It is.

Literally the end of the human species. It's it's over for humanity. Right now everything has been going really well in terms of the number of people living in poverty is plummeting a life lifespans have been rising. Science is booming, they occur he is booming. All these things are incredible. The one thing that can stagnant right now is the number of people living in democracy versus hundreds? rotarian rule its flat, so we You look at all the pinkies chart and he's really excited there's one you're gotta, see that's flat, and I think we pete with fifty three or fifty four percent of people, on the planet, earth being in a democracy, and now it's gone below fifty and its because some of the democratic you know western kind. please don't have the population growth of some of the communist and socialist countries.

in authoritarian countries, and we have to make sure that we're pr we wind capitalism. We must win economically, that is the battlefield, the battlefield, the science technology and money and economy finance. That's the battlefield. China wins authoritarian when and at any time, judging pink and pull jack, mind your room and say it's time for you to be re educated or they put three or four million people wiggers into prison camps and say you know what this religious thing that's counter to what is productive for therefore we're gonna shave, your heads, We're going to have you literally pick cotton in the fields they have wiggers with no sense of any kind of arc of history in the fields. Picking cons as slaves in what can only be described by every human turn organisation as a concentration camp and every jewish person. I know, takes great offence when somebody use the holocaust. As a metaphor, except in the case,

we greens right now in every jewish person. I've talked to has said to me. That is a holocaust that is millions of people going to genocide, because of their religious beliefs and I'm an atheist. But If we want to believe us our religion, fine, but China's approaches we to win capitalism so bad? We need to win on the globe rachel bad. We can have this religious stuff going on here. That is a distraction from winning a beating america and then in america the people who can make us, when are the entrepreneurs and the site just in the technology in our education system in finance and we're vilify in those things. So pretty dark. It's dark, but I still believe that the the vilification is just in the space of twitter in the space of idea. I think that's probably, and entrepreneurs went out in the end. They don't believe that and now bill will get the raw. Some of them do actually in their darkest moments. I can tell you that they turn off their twitter account and a I've had to sit

and with the number of entrepreneurs and say, turn off twitter. This is not healthy for you. This is not a healthy pursuit, because we don't read the comments. If you do it's like a full contact sport, you should just take it as like prof your rustling or some, but stay focused on building companies. You know it advancing the human species through science and technology em in as you're describing first does this, we can start ups, for eleven years I was twelve hundred out one hundred ass. He thought to some great leaders and business in general is there are common thing, the you see or really I'm not a relationship with apparent, like you Finally, a radar on minority. I will show me the trauma and her dad was. I you're not good enough as you know, in a teenage years. That is truly. Is there something there is heavily something which marked europe of point, though I am mixer, I mean, and there is definitely something with immigrant parents,

It is a bit of austerity about here, but I've heard from many investors like that's like there are you. Are you really parents, immigrants and the day before to you that you have to succeed and you feel the need to succeed because they suffered to get you to this country like There is an archetype there that I hear when I start investing. I heard from a lot of people was like yeah? You want to find those immigrant founders who are coming out of Stanford because they had to fight to get there and their parents had to fight right. So it's like two huge fight and there's so much at stake, as opposed somebody, who's fifth generation and like had everything to them and they were legacy and got into schools for free, but I think in general. The ability to get people to join you on that journey. This is so critical, so you have. be charismatic and it doesn't mean like your an extrovert through introvert were super charismatic. There are soft spoken because I don't have to be like supervised Asia is her, ran, bunches, imho. They can be just quiet assassins, but you need to be able to get

people to come on the journey with you have to be that storyteller and you have to have that passion. And then you have to transfer that enthusiasm to investors, the press, to customers to all the stakeholders and if you enthusiastic about it in your engage, then it's easier for people to come on the journey and that's why people really start to think about what? What is the purpose of what I'm doing and it sounds corny and I, when I first heard that our six kind of corny, but then I read this book by- have cut his name rick, something he wrote, the purpose driven church and he has spoken out in tatters. thing and everybody went crazy about it and he's like a church should have one purpose, one single thing: they do like his church, which was like one of these mega churches in san diego just wanted to do education for this specific country and that's all they did, and they just they benchmark that I think, is very important to have a purpose and emission, not everything but

No a specific purpose of some kind of joy that you want to put into the world. You solve some kind of big hard problem and dan everybody knows why you're coming to work every day and then for the few under. We knew dread going to work that day and you don't like someone that problem anymore. That's the that's! It how, in a lot of times every young founders my. Why are you doing this in like why looking for an idea, and this is when I came up with, because I think I'll make a lot of money and it's like you're going to quit gonna get to my nine or ten of this, and you can run out of money were like your seat, He owes gonna quit that you're see. If I was going to quit and you will lose your biggest customer and you're just say this is not worth it. You know, and if you know using you know, bases tour you, don't you honest examples. It they just needed to see this. The world changed first, very specific ways: jobs. You know they needed to see a change in it. It doesn't matter.

made money or they were losing or winning. They just went to work every day and had changed it s almost like they do. No choice and neutral you make it sound like his torture. His whole journey, but he can't harm, is having been a witness to it. You know just as friends for four that long I have never seen an entrepreneur suffer more than him and he has been public about that like he did not want to be me and he has suffered too for those companies here. Suffered to get the money. It has not been easy. Can secular allies, on that aspect like is there is a jessica How, but he must see the change that he hoped for in the world, he's just incredible: hard working and he's very talented as well I people understand that he actually is a really brilliant engineer. At the end of the day, he actually knows what he's doing and he asked the right questions. I mean people were kind of aghast at that he was asking vlad such good question.

And the like. Oh my god, he wants to basque journalist on the planet, and it was like that Anybody who knows Isla nosey s great questions, I've been I've been, I used to dinner and allay, and my book agent also assume as is agent salmon. I met. through job, in and we became friends is willing, near each other, and I was frankly alone and that I use to invite them to vote dinner in brentwood cause one lived in bel air one lived in santa Monica and I lived in brentwood and we will go to his place proponent. It's italian restaurant, and every tuesday for years? We would just the three of us every other, tuesday or so. We'd have dinner, and I sit there and sam wanted to know about it. I'm you launched hung about artificial intelligence is in the board of deep minded. Eels I wanted to know about atheism and meditation, and all this other stuff that you know sam was an expert on air to sit there and like, just listen to these two and they have both piercing intelligences by yeah. He go straight to the gut, but like

The question that nine year was the here is the basic stuff that like. Why the hell? Are you doing it this way? Yet when the obvious solution is like much easier or or this or that like? Why haven't you tried to figure things out? I mean he's a problem. Solver and that's another thing, Mcvay. I think the great entrepreneurs can look at a problem with very fresh eyes like almost consistently bit by. Those described as day, one thinking right like expert this day one every day and then other people use the term first principles, but it basically means like when you see a problem pause for a second. And really think through what is the best possible solution here? What assembled I have solutions and get from everybody like how do we solve this problem and what people do? Sometimes they get in a rut where they just come to work and they just go through their email, they do whatever they did the day before they don't think. Why are we doing this, and is there a better way to do it? Now you can get so

sensitive about that, that you can over engineer stuff and you can never actually ship a product. So there have to be some pragmatism and some goals, and some dates associate with that. But it is a very cool thing to really there. like. I wonder if we actually made the batteries ourselves without look like or I wonder if we could get to two day, shipping you know or whatever you do they day, shipping like you need to have some who's going to say you know it fuck it lets had occurred. The audacious go to day shipping of any product anywhere in the united states won't you throw the gauntlet down like that. No, everybody knows the rolling in the right direction to day shipping amazon prime minister People didn't realize about amazon, the business wasn't the shipping of those products it was, getting you to sign up for amazon, prime them there? hundreds of millions of people doing amazon, prime for ten bucks a month. I think globally, throbbing cheaper, but was the driver of that business was all of those people to stay would here now

it's on prime subscriber, do you know how much you pay? No exactly? It started at fifty dollars and I think they even had like forty fifty sixty I would like the testing in the early days now. It's I think ahead forty nine dollars, twelve thirteen dollars a month, if you in the year. I think it goes down to ten bucks a month, one hundred twenty and you're like wow, and it's like yeah you're, paying thirty dollars a month for the privilege of shopping at amazon. but you wouldn't you say the greatest in the world because anything I need you know. If you forgot a microphone or a cable goes better cameras. Bet you get it here within a day or love is pretty amazing. Very, been dropping bombs and credible advice and stops ingenerable. The knee Maybe go straight in and ass guy, isn't advice. As for somebody that wants to go beg to build the big start up to help them succeed, yeah, it's very similar to the advice I give to investors, because now I I teach angel, investing a circle

want to invest, and so I wrote a book on that angel and that I do of course, called angel university that eighty six times a year and then I have sinned. I called the syndicate dot com re. Investing companies have sixty five hundred people who are members of that is the largest syndicate in the world. In fact, the first day I ever did was com dot com. The meditation app frazier seventy thousand dollars into it. When we finally and our product I've I've made our coming we about six or seven percent of the company is now a two billion, so you do it. Half an hour, we salon five percent a year is a sick years ago, so probably seven yeah, maybe twenty fifteen twenty fourteen and nobody else would invest in comp, but SAM This was the reason I did because I SAM What meditation is explaining it to me, and I said what do I dislike? You have to have like a mantra. How does it work exactly? I know positive as well. You know you should just go to: u c l a talk to Diana winston, unlike there's hope, project there and you lay. Does meditation to get us a mindful institute there like teaching people to be to teach meditation

m, they're, doing ptsd and I'm no brain scan on the router rousing, oh, and then I talked to the You cla people and there like is yeah like we. We taught phil Jackson and kobe bryant and Shaquille O'Neal did you know that's how they won their championships? They meditated and I was like hm. If, u c, l a is doing and SAM says, is cool or fuck it up with money into that, and that's the second biggest investment my career after uber. and it will in all likelihood become the biggest naming this between goober robin hood in calm and long story short when I'm teaching people to angel best is really to things that you cannot cannot fake. One is a product that is built really well The calm robin hood, goober, tesla amazon. These products are transcendent. There well constructed this craftsmanship to them their their great

products so using not fundamentally like the idea, but the execution of the actual cross out over the construction. The actual product is amazing, then there's customers and that every business has ultimately a customer in that customer. If they are in fact a lighted by that product, that's the magic, because you need a team to build the pro. And then you need customers to use the product can really those three factors are undeniable. Now you can have great teams that build a bad product doesn't happen too often or you have customers you don't like the product, but, generally speaking, a great team will build a grey product. or a good product iterate, and then eventually delight customers, and so most people say the team is the most important but There's a lot of smart people out there. Let's assume that you can have real.

money for your idea. now we have money or you can just convince people to do it for free. If you make a great product and it connects with users, that's the magic. You look at clubhouse, it's actually a really well designed product and that product is connecting with customers. And if you were to talk to the customers, we'll look at the product, you would see a well constructed product and a delight the customer- and you can tell the delighted customer by just the amount time they use it. That's called engagement to fancy work how much they use it and snapchat when was going around and they were true. Raise money. They had a friend you the number of users, but the top, maybe third, we're opening the app every hour and that nobody had ever seen that before people are using facebook in a couple times a day, the top users, nobody had ever seen. People using it every day. for a hundred days in a row every hour, What's going on. Here is a o, the ephemeral message and then the streaks. They created the streaks between people, where you know every day

then people would be like our vacation, like I just have to open my street and keep my street with lax that we had in everyday guy, and so they had the addictive nature to an that's. Why club? Ass was able to garner so much investment is the norm of ours people were using every month, was just unbelievably off the charts, some there's a situation by some of us are the weird the magic of the product market. Yet so there's something in common Also, there is still a mystery me cause. I also use discord voice, there's an intimacy to voice, oh for sure that we have pupils yeah tent, it's it's a while it, but like video, gets in the way actually in engineered way, there's a privacy when you just use voice, we were not taken charge, networks, The system were independent, making people's roll out of bed in the herald a novice get there. We areas get no he's gettin haircuts people are wearing Jim clothes, they mean Zoom is just horrific to be on soon five hours a day. It is exhausting making wonder what went down

actually emerged from the pandemic, whether opera or product market fit how that evolves with with clubhouse all those kinds of things. Yeah no clubhouse is a beneficiary of the pandemic for sure What do you think the pendant? When do you think that will be under the say to her the gay and we'll have to rebuild people on the other side of this, because that's kind of what cakes right, you gotta, get you one hundred and fifty two hundred million people on the other side and america. I have it, you don't. I personally stopped deeply thinking about this, because have been frustrated for so long that each sector I almost checked out because psychologically allows me to carry on. Yes, I thought for many months now that testing is to be done in scale and it still hasn't that has so really gave up basically untapped with ease up because worry, sitting there waiting for vaccine to come along and the district The vaccine is not a struggle

Same kind of things at the testing is getting quite a bit answer. It does if everything goes great meaning he's not a second strand the virus is going to be created, Second major wave that I cynical enough to think they won't be untold midsummer. There was thorough going back up and they are to get big major I'm a little bit earlier than you haven't tracking as they want If I might shots at arms a day, I think this vaccine been undersold. I mean it's a miracle, not one person who is in the trials died who took it. And only one went to the hospital they weren't even put on a ventilator. So in the hut conversations, are plummeting. where a ten percent now in the united states at the pace we're going away, point five a day. And John someone comes out next month. It will be three million a day, maybe two and a half Can we already have a hundred million people who, like we had it? Simon, do the math, I think we're like say days away february, marcia sometime in April, I think,

Anybody should be able to get a shot in the arm. of deaths, is going to go below two hundred a day, and once that happens, I think people who have had enough of this they're just going to go yolo. I would see the the crucial peace for me that focusing eyes the social media aspect of how the issue just about the reality of deaths is about the state of the collective intelligence. So the human species, whose determined by our communication, social media, wikipedia will can bees collectively afraid the fear can spread or could be, YOLO can spread or it could be. all different kinds of misinformation and, of course, during the election year that politics influences, are perception of Yet what is true or not, but having real rigorous, knew ass conversation about this kind of stuff, is the way is the way out of this and as well

Social media really comes concerned because social me as drives division, where people form tries and saw a view, feels like its honestly technology prowl people. Besides a here no problem, but it just feels like. I cannot believe he was a good move. Technology can enable them to be thoughtful, and we talked earlier about- and you know this- the magic of silicon valley, and that may be going too far with the facebook groups. Example. Where You know you take out all that friction what It was that we use them call our kron reverse, chronological order, that's how you consume to feed, so any kind of social feed lie. Twitter was in reverse chronological order. The newest thing was up top and we just work your way backwards, and so I gave this really fresh feeling and then a guy named Dave mourn? The team over a facebook realised the other some things back on a lot of tension two hours ago and the stuff since then has not been as important

but if you miss that there was a really good tweet, where there is a really good update that somebody had a baby. Let's that's: how can we get the baby one at the top and it was like. Well. How would we do that? How would we know that? That's the important when it's like, what's with put a like button on it let's see how many commissar, so he gets a lot of livestock It's a retreats, let's show those first and then what kind of mix in the most recent and so when you're on twitter and then when Facebook did, that facebook became so addicting could face? What was on one has got the most engagement put that first. So every time you open a face at the dopamine head and then what happens when you see the bar mitzvah photo, were you know that? raging story about some injustice in the world. You retweeted, you read a com, you share it on your wall and thus this addiction to the hour.

Rage. The outlandish the inspiring occurred and it used to be like inspiring stuff puppies or some heartwarming story, and then it gets dark. And then people started to realize if I want to show up on the top of my friends feeds if I say something: com virtual were I'm outraged I get to the top and then that's been outraged. Culture came in and then that's when cancel culture came in every started realize. If I try to cancel that person for being a racist, or sexist or a horrible human being or whatever they did that's wrong. I get to the top of the feed and we all actively started playing a very weird video game, which is how, age coming lobby and to get to the top of the list and then, of course, with tromp. He realized in his eye. Ok, I'm just gonna- make fun of a celebrity, and I get more retreats again. Gonna make fun rosie O'Donnell for being overweight or something, and he just starts attacking people and people like? Oh, my god, what did he and he copied from howard stern cause. He was

york and he he's to be on eastern howard stern, took over all the dialogue in the eightys and ninetys, because he was outrageous and then trump did that Then social media incorporated that into the operating system. It became the actual device of social media, was the ding meeting with canada incredible for every salivating, Pavlov's dog. You know, oh my god, I can be outraged. That's what's gotta be undone, but we have a lot to be done. As these things can be billions of people where most outrageous thing that happened in the world today in the last five minutes and is now in front of you and that's what people have anxiety, they don't sleep and they do scroll all night is because The human mind was not meant to process this much suffering, pain, anger and that's where we're, this mental health issues also You know, young girls or even adults, watching other people post their private jets, said their vacation. and you know yolo adventurers on their instagram to the point at which you,

people are now faking being on private jets too put on their instagram, creating like this crate he foma around their instagram like now, wonder why people are unhappy like if you think for me on a private jet going to some michelin star Restaurant or whatever the coolest thing in the world is today like to the grammy is going to whatever coach halla burning man like you like. but I'm home I'm in my house and I'm not Burning man inadequate exactly this whole system as guests. Creating the wrong side of incentive? I do not believe it is possible to still have extra. hi engagement and create a successful, profitable business, while in jeanne personal growth by encouraging people. be the best version says as think eleven. With the we got the first generation

that is, I think, a new generation is turned his eyes. Your plan for businesses do so, while I have a longer term plan at intervals of a bit ambition, which is I believe in he ought to have deep connection between women in ai systems, like partners, friends, others into their social media. I do think twice has a strong role to play in presenting us guiding us in how we consume sulphur media algorithm that controls the feed for facebook is some centralized algorithm, but instead to more power to the people yours to store each one of us. Have our own algorithm bring your we've got to get mature. I o a a beef ios like that of bringing in alcohol or an algorithm yeah. Well, I mean, if you thought about it, if we came and said I want, when I look at my twitter feed, I would like to see the people with.

Who are the most helpful in the world, generous kind, intelligent, considered. You know meeting on things that I don't already know about cause. I want open my worldview, that could be a beautiful thing for society and actually jack was talking about potentially on twitter letting people bring their own algorithms instructor feeds themselves. Isabel wonderful thing, I think, is one of the reasons clubhouses resonated. Is it such a diverse group of people that I been able to drop in on conversations with people were Nothing like me this and listen in an end here, conversations that I wouldn't normally be privy to, and I my errors like oh come, when, as a speaker, I wanted to a room with you, I get asked everyday. Can we do? Can we do a room? Ask an angel investor talk about start ups and, unlike my usage of club, ass is going on my palatine treadmill, putting club hassan

and left the room and listening its soda life over me ass, a paw gasser, where my job is to talk to sit back and just put in a couple of miles and play chess and listened to a club house discussion that is about relationship it's air, or you know some fashion or hip hop or whatever it is that I'm not part of. I just sit there and listen and you'll learn it's like such a delightful, the ousting what these kids go to college it's been so jealous of these ivy league kids. They go and they're like. Oh, I gotta go to class and I'm like. I would just love to sit there and listen to professor lax talk. You know like to what a privilege to sit there and let somebody else drive and talk and listen and learn. Yeah, that's the beauty of podcasting but of course, gavaskar Another experience worth conversations is different. I think it's gonna be the end between I'll I'll, it as a european your pockets, like you and I gotta releases pocket right. Somebody or have you on my part? Will you once you start out and then sets? when something to be like

you and I will run each I and I ran into you. I saw you are on club house the other night and I will I was busy, but I was going almost Click on you and say: let's start a room together. You know someone who, together with arrogance in or somebody or same harris, will jump in riga and will have a different experience, which would you shoot the shit you hand, it'll act as a fabric, and in a little feller between the tent pol pot guests, right, leg you and Eric you've done. Three, I think with Eric was your. We have analysed the fourth ok, so I'm a watch all three, because I really that your? U way in him like giving you vices very interesting, dynamic, harrassing, dynamic, bowed, and I find him like a fascinating. Can we know everybody in common, except we ve. Never met is very weird, because you know you, you think the social graph in the real world is why I think augmented reality is going to be. Such an amazing product. I just have one:

future. I want for augmented reality. We wear our glasses and when I look at you above your head I see the relationships we have and the things we ve done together right. So I see oh you both know. Somehow are you had a lot in the past on this date or you and I both at burning man in to that Second, most meaningful element of our connection ran out here and then could we would discover that two small talk but imagine you're like a party and you look at it. Just people glow and you just see a glow around a person like green. If you have some financial relationship? Blue means, you have some friendship, one yet or yellow means. You have friendship, one blue means, you know nothing about each other. You have no connections you're like wow. This blue people have no connection to, these people that one's glowing red, we know seven or more people in common and those. The seven people, always you go talk about how we know each other that could,

and that sorta happened with facebook, member or myspace, where you were like. Oh, you know that person friend of a friend, but that's where there's going to be a rs like this, why? I think, apple figures out are or snap china. Have those glasses forget about the are causing eating in whatever, but are we? put the glasses on. You see the real world, but you augmented, you're, you make a just like you're, saying you make frictionless a very low friction young make a deal: human connection, because you you have all the basic. Almost there are ready. I than that about the unintended consequences of what I just described. Could you We are the privacy thing people up at the of thing: people your privacy is an illusion like water. Information? Is there and then. People are more than willing to give up privacy in exchange. For some value, you know is a value trade and giving if, if my tesla,

when I'm driving in the direction of my house to starts the navigation, saves me three clicks and that frictions gone, I'm willing to give tesla my location in my home address right. I'm not wanted to give Zuckerberg anything. I don't trust him, but you get the idea We too will be that way with our dna and other things at some point. What we like you just take my dna like at our yes, your people, look and see that I'm mental midget of my eye, cues like lower than and bring the balcony father whatever, but but you you can figure out like We will put our dna and sequenced all mine and oh yeah. You know Lexus got ten more iq boy then jake owl in here you now SAM's got ten where the lax and fathers and people are like all bent out of shape about it. But what? If they we did that in there and by the way you also all three of you are gonna get parkinson's unless you do X, Y and z collection. we're blueberries or wherever we figure out. So we want to set a break with the other brave new world brave new world. I I have to ask You you're, just in your saying you're one of the world's experts

thing and an instrument in start ups. The visa fee, and so on. From the perspective of the start up, I was always skeptical of raising money. It fears, I people do too quickly too easily but the hell, I'm talking about it, one it's the when should start up. raise money and from the perspective of the investor, why should the investor invest in a start up like? Is that time thing here. Is there what yeah? What it's a very important question, because the venture capital community is only going to fund. You know, sub one percent of enterprise to start in the in the united states every year, like maybe ten basis, points of them like, one in a thousand and the reason is its jet fuel. You only want to that money? If you really want to build something big and you want to build a fast and when you put jet fuel

behind a start up as we and with other rockets, things can blow up and people can die out. people literally dying, but the business can go up in smoke right, like rockets, get blown up all time and space eggs as part of their ambitious plans and start ups, seven out of ten startups. We invest in good zero now If you were to start the business and only build it off customer revenue and use your own money and go nice and slow and grow ten percent a year. The chance have you blowing up the rocket are very low because you're riding a bicycle to it's even got a little faster, but the bicycle can only go so fast and once you start taking that money, the way the port foot the way venture capital is constructed as a m in the mix of like mit or harvests endowments is here we put some money into safe things,

we're gonna. Have these really binary things over here and they probably put five percent in venture capital, traditionally its grown to twenty percent. Just as a function of how successful has been So you know harvard of the world at mit is probably one five or ten percent adventure, but its grown to twenty five percent, because companies like air being and uber have grown so big but the goal is in these ventured once we can invest in thirty names and one or two of them pagoda return three times the cap with deployed, shows a three hundred million are found in this thirty names. They just got ten million, I mean of the ten million is going. Turn the fund plus so that, It has to grow thirty acts and then sixty x to double the fund and you're really was to be doing three times cash on cash or the frenchman are funds be expected, in ten years to return nine hundred million the persons money as opposed to the stock market, which doubles your money in the same period she you're supposed to do twenty

Five percent annually returns in order to triple the money and maybe I have an outlying chance of four or five times the money which does happen. Sometimes we have an outlier in your portfolio like uber or facebook was, and what that means is the venture capitalist behaviour. In the game there playing is different than you as the founder use. The phone you may really care about this dying, really matters to you, and then you got a venture capital we're getting on thirty names. We need two of them to hit it out of the park. Maybe three and nothing else- is meaningful. So now you something about the game theory there you you're, dealing with you know money that coming in. That only cares about you going a hundred acts as a whole. Different ballgame Whereas if you build off revenue, you don't have to do that and if you look at a company like com dot com, we invested a five million. The next round they do is to fifty. They were so capital efficient that grew from ten thousand dollars a month in revenue to millions of dollars a month in revenue over there.

Four years since we invested anything, raise money and between while it was unbelievable, only seen this happened three or four times it does not this capital efficient, meaning a based on costs more revenue alone, Some small amount of fund raising you're able to grow like how hard it is to do that it takes extreme product market fit. You have to have a great. price rear product. That has a great margin yeah and if you're doing something in hardware, it's probably impossible to super capital, intensive isolated from it, gotta be a software business. Software start where businesses take hold, what more do venture capital is getting in the way at all of the business or do tend to get out of the way yeah, if you, if you get young venture capitalists who are starting their career, they're, very nervous and scared. Because they're putting all these bats, and then this are very weird thing that happens. The bad news comes first, so companies that don't work out go out of business immediately.

So if it's not going to be calm, robin hood goober those takes sent you Do you have a one of those great successes somewhere in your five six? Seven eight as an investor. What is the first five years like first five years, you feel like an idiot cause, you let's say you make these a ten bets. in year, two two or three of them come back and they don't have product market fit and they're out of money, and they say, can we have more You say no, we have to go get it from somebody ask, as you have to prove that there is still a market for it. We may keep our programme we may put a little bit into maintain our percentage ownership, but we're not. To give you another big chunk of money that company dies. So now you ve got ten million proof up in smoke. Book tumbling over smoke, so is called the J curve where your performance, down, and that is only in years, four five and six assembling up and what you're seeing right now is the people who started like I did in two thousand. You noticed bit Levin too

years ago, in two thousand and nine I started investing. We all look like geniuses. Why we're? At the end of the cycle we invested after when the stock market was on the floor after the financial crisis, and it's gone straight up since so ever If you look there's a couple of blips in there, but generally speaking, there hasn't been like a major crash with the exception of pandemic crash, but that bounce right back, and so you know it takes a decade to figure out. If you're good at it and then, if the marker crashes again, everybody feels like it again. The cycle starts again, so you now as a founder, You are now inserting yourself into that casino and now got all these other forces pushing and pulling, and you growing, let's say your company has grown fifty percent. You feel like wow, successful. I made a million dollars lasher now doing a million half enough, and the first thing we see can say use. How do we triple remove were growing too slow Super there, thank you, cited beautiful eyes of rocket fuel had sir in this

It's a kind of motivation is driving it. It's a it's a positive. So if you want that, he has asked if you want that, if you want that, if you want to go to navy seal school, you can in pain and they're, going to put that hose in your face, while you're underwater with your hands tied behind your back in the pool, and you will be choking and you don't have to Sepia. Aren't you and like every couple years tragically, some dies, a navy seal school It doesn't mean we're getting rid of the navy seal rock if he dies he dies. I dunno. If you know David goggins, is by any chance. I do not know him personally, but oh my lord psalm I'm running forty miles to go with him in person in a month for drinking water about with him and probably other that's because he enjoys just breaking people make an I'm Christ. I got so jolly, so there Why offered? We agreed on a while ago, your podcast and oh yeah, come, will do this day and age the bay area

where the hell he by were doing here and now I can't take to say where not a word to say, or of other people in the middle of nowhere, but he seems to be in a bunch of different locations like he s an organism like that is they do for all outside of running books in being inspiration, is he actually train people or like now? I will tell you what usually just his brow full time in saying that he fights forest fires like for a few months a year as a fire like unsafe? labour. The key here there's a bunch of people who are like him maybe so and so on. They kind of make career otto motivational speaking, although yeah he's, though You hear that literally interested and now just doing hard shit. All the talking breaking himself break. None of our themes like he wants to break himself and that that book is amazing and the audio books amazing. When he's talking about fatty was and how he just

to go and keep running in his like legs are broke enemies. Just for pain, and it just goes through its really inspire nice aspire thing. So you would have videotape yourself doing this. I I can't wait to see you get destroyed, this guy's entertaining but denied or the lax audience the pain but the others planting is his is happily married and there's a part a ship there. This would he finds this attention as a push importers beautiful, I think, a boy in speaking of beautiful push him poor. how about that transition hurry, I, if you and your mouth he's a friend of yours, better universities, yeah yeah. I could, for I mean he's very few people in my life him ilan david sacks, John brachmans, for everybody who have supported me as much as those vote. I mean I'm a huge debt save us a cohort and they all in part, Gabby taped episode. Twenty one today out today

replied friday. Now they want to do every friday there addicted. Like me in your pocket, to really say one? It's probably released, as were sitting, as we all get it, I cancel national guest on it. We had dream on green from the warriors phone ass. We had our first guest awesome yeah. So it's really funny cause. He plays poker with us and we're all besties so beautiful. So he I you guys, went pretty heated with each other. Vs rob on robinhood. Yes, maybe atlas is two things I want to ask you. First on the actual robert had discussion in the wash your best discussion. Can you steal his argument. What was the nature of the disagreement where? So? Where would you what? What is the littlest? Because I don't think it's as big as a spaces? It came off as sounding nature of the disagreement He felt that robin hood turned off trading because the hedge funds told them to and

they were bowing down to the pressure of the hedge funds is not true, but in vain If of information, you know what happens to people's minds. Conspiracy theories abound, abandoned some, there is a conspiracy theory and sometimes has just the appearance of impropriety or a bunch of related things like when you look at the trump situation with russia, like was trump trying corny with russia or the russians just screwing, with a bunch of like me, a fight, idiotic dipshit, You know donald trump junior, who don't know any better and they don't. that you shouldn't me with the russians and if you, me with the russians. You are probably a useful idiots you probably should tell the fbi, like they're, just a bunch of idiots likelihood nanos vacuum information is a vacuum of information. We don't know and the russians are trying to combat. as everybody. So would you call

conspiracy or call it an attempted you no conspiracy, there was no conspiracy hear what it was was robin hood. to raise billions of dollars to say solvent in all likelihood and they I know how to talk about it so there were forced into not talking about in all likelihood and had to come up with that money or shut down, and then what got me up? Seven trauma and we had a talk afterwards- that no, no about I'll talk about here. For the first time on sunday we had to have a little we had carried out in that after you sound like you, ve had a private. You made that we had a private discussion just one on one hand, we have this and we love each other where best ease we ve always been there for each other. What happened here that what happened there is I'm fiercely loyal to my folks, whether its tomorrow, third Travis from uber or sacks or who have signed

a world. I guess I'm I'm always right or die with my founders. If I invest in them, even if they make a mistake and over me plenty mistakes, I always went on CNBC on my part It said: hey we're going to fix these things. I'm in touch with the team mistakes were made, we're going to solve them. This is a group of people with great intent who want to make the world a better place, and you know what I was hated for for years. time with as hated for at last week with robin hood. I got a lot of blow back, but I think in both of those cases that was right. Doing great stuff in the world robin has done great stuff in the world, and I like to be well to my investments at my partners too, to just, I feel give you investing your on the team. Here. You have really three choices. You the fight for your team, you can go silent. We can throw him under the bus and I've watched investors throat, the team that they invested in that made them a bunch of money under the bus not acceptable to me and be quiet not acceptable to me. So I always asked the founder: do you want me to? Is it ok? If I go out and defend you

employee if they say yes, I do it and they're beautiful by the way, because what else do we have in this world? If not friendship and loyalty means everything to me. I grew up in brooklyn where, if you were not loyal and you and you were not loyal to your crew. Thank you are a eroding you're a you know, out there on your own flailing in you. Don't trust me not want to be on your own. In nineteen, seventy state is when you need to have a crew with you, I've gotten into you you don't want to get into a fight with ten dies and be alone should be with you. You need a crew to survive, so it is learned or early and my dad who, on the bar just drilled into me, being loyal and so, for whatever reason, I'm a bulldog. When it comes to loyalty and from off, came out and said, you know these guys you to go to jail and their scumbags internet had out. Try to defend them and I am in a position where I can't defend them, because I don't have complete information. There is complete information, it's in the heat of the moment, and then it becomes the number one story and it's my number three investment.

An tribute. Has a competing companies sofa and he's kill my guys, and then I started killing his guys and then all of a sudden we're like wait. A second we're best friends is and where swinging our swords at each other and where a group of the seven samurai who fight together, when do we turn on each other and then everybody else was on the part, the two David's group we are both on the spectrum, a better go, survivors would offer no offense. Let's take I hate you, hey! You know, really. I thought you might be somewhere not acquire since it may not be concerned as they will be approved to day of its firm, where we can upgrade your firmware after this I'll give us yeah, you have what you're on the point five. You have the three emotions now wish. We, I now want to go with joy, imelda, to point out that you finally got the joy and working I just difficult. If ever got your get there. Just let it happen and lacks does lead to let the joy of happened.

So anyway we just talked about it off line and we decided like listen. We didn't pre game that episode. I will have to be seen what my family I taken the first like vacations goddamn pandemic started. and I found a wonderful time and then this holding blows up and coming off the mountain. Just having great I'm on my daughter, skiing in yonder mixing it out with him and he had a short. It is about a cause he was triggered. He taught me because he really feels like he's fighting to defend, you know the every man and I think that's what my teams doing. That's why they, the company, robin hood, we're on the same side here and then over time we started to see the explosion come out in the open, People who are friends are gonna have disagreements in the park ass. It happened to happen very puppet, We and we didn't know, was going to become the number one story in the world if trump's latest twitter handle this would not have been a story. True trump would have said something about games,

and he would have collected the entire conversation so in a way going back to our censorship discussion. I might actually be in favour of tramping censored, only wise, only because how d full. Has it been since january twentieth there that we can all focus on something other than him? He was exhausting the amount of cycles he took on our processors, eyes, the awe, and now this is would have been more distributed like that. Everyone should have the chance to be your story of everybody gets a chance to discuss it, but so on a scale of one to ten You love your mouth out. Eleven, I mean I loved him up. I mean we play cards last night, where we're best isa You know I would. I would die with literally jump in front of a bullet for him that mean what's the lesson in that discussion: super? I wouldn't. I think the love was felt in the report This thought draw your own, you guys are going pretty vicious and each other. I add, is there the lesson

We learned your regret. Any of that I mean, I think he he he me that he regretted some things. You said he said publicly on the park ass. Like listen, I was a little hot. I may have said things in the heat of the moment, but I don't live with too much regret. Was I always think about tent is one of the new new wants. An intent have been totally lost, the idea that we can have We have kind of a new wants. Discussion about thing seems to have been forgotten and the fact that people don't look a people's intent. If you hurt somebody feelings or you disrespect, somebody. you. You do something mean whatever I was at the intent you know, and I've had people attack me and I look at the intended among the persons was bad about themselves. For maybe I said some and I insulted them and that's why they blow back there? So I tried to think what the intent of the person and then almost universally you talk to somebody and you find out. You ascribed some crazy intent.

that's not there and the like. Are you know what happened? I gonna fight when my spouse- and I were- I didn't sleep last night and I ve had a lot of anxiety about my business, and I I just snapped it says something about you and I Like I lily had somebody on twitter this past summer I had said something I was complaining about a new york times, journalist and sudden that was wrong. This person was a fan of the journalist and they went. I kid you not on social media account found a picture taken about the how blue the sky was. One day they reverse image search the tree line found the tree. Fine on Google images are somehow the research found an old listing. That's broker had listed on their like website of my house and then posted my home. Ass the value of my home,

and the docs me on twitter and I'm like what is going on here. So I call the person yeah and I look them up and they work in private equity in Boston, and I look at him like this. Person works a monitor the July fourth week, so When I look at the purses linked and we have seven people in common to go back to the air covers, if you rode up here, am I look at this person literally just knocked me? I asked him to take it down. They told me they won't take it down And then I look at it so then I d m a twitter. I said by the way, your boss, Susan, and I know seven people in common- and these are the seven people- here's a screenshot. What is she going to think when I call her on Monday and you ve docks me here Finally, we should like it. He calls me I said what's going on, why would you do this? really a pissed off about what you said about the person is like you understand. I have had like two

stalkers like in anyone whose piper alpha like I am like we're medium of how you can have weird things happen. You literally put my home. dress, to put my family orissa. What, if I put your home address on my, I have fought for hundred thousand dollars with rendered as well as you have like three hundred. What if I push your address, he said. Well, I wish you wouldn't do that was I asked you kindly to take my address down And I said, are you married? Do I said it how old you are you like twenty five or something he's like no I'm forty two and was like you're forty two years old, I think, are you, marriage of catches, a courageous, had a baby like six months ago, make your home, which your wife it shall. I fourth weaken. Docks jason hooliganism, because you're upset at me because I said something about in your countrymen. He say get us is the biggest mistake, my life, I said I tell you Let's forget, it ever happened and he wrote me back. He said I want to thank you for how you handled it. My wife said amicably fucking more, agenda.

It's diva, but what does the complete bhagavad? Add? I'm really sorry blah blah blah blah blah, and I wrote her back. I said I wrote it back. Is it my wife? This is a victory that long until a glove. It was only by this this hand, no one it matters right and the person to be having a bad day, and they do something stupid. They regret and what am I to cancel the guy or via coordinates balls. You have been fired immediately and I gotta live with this guy got fired and he's got a kid. What is his personal destruction? Why we doing this to each other life's hard enough life's hard? Rightly, skin to the days hard yan, and that that little bit of empathy, thinking about the intent of the person, allows you to those who d s collate this kind of com nation that they don't you realize the escalate yes saying if, if this initiative in my younger years, I would have retreated the guy's home,

and my address and would have called his boss and try to get fired whenever and it's like now just like what. Why are we attacking each other? Wife is so hot. I mean this. What the pandemic, I think we should make everybody realize is like look at that how hard it is. Life is hard and interesting about all the people. Women, who are at home the single mom or dad with two or three kids at home in public school, Maybe they been laid off and their kids aren't learning and there in a tiny apartment I mean the spin, who for a lot of people and not to mention people losing loved ones, or maybe some people caught carogne? Another lungs are still not right. Cask about love, oh sure, I'm feeling like we're in Our two year lacks yeah. You feel you only. They become bestia network organic, we're gonna, bromides gotta. Do I feel a deal of its Eric wasting level, but I hear like eyes filling a love, what you will without water,

this music to my ears, all around the olympic nature of start up. is there a role like what role does love family friendship play in that brutal pursuit of excellence that is start a building, a company or building a creating anything new in this world, such a great question in totally unprepared for it cause a net. No one would ever ask me about that. So I think that's why you've you've you've got quite a following on your podcast. Is that you're able to ask these questions, and I could tell one story, because I don't talk about- I try not to talk about relationship with you on that often as you know, he so famous now I mean when we matter that I used to go out to parties with him and would like on a car you're here in cacao, yeah and like who's, your friend my cousin, my friend, elon, is and maybe like what he's doing rocket ships have, but he's told the story publicly. So I could

Although I would never talk about anything that he hasn't already talked about publicly, especially since saw a high profile, but was pretty funny moment, and he though, there was a moment in time and test almost went out of business and you from heard the story many times, but it was during the financial crisis in They were running out of money d you know: let's go get a steak, then we're in l a we drove to boa, and I had my orange tesla roadster and he had his p one or p two like the red one. That I think is an space. Now am I drove to the valley. we had a stake together, we're sitting there- and I said you know, I read the story, gawker or whatever you know and new york times here. You only got like five weeks of money left in tesla, because it's not true as like. Oh thank god we have two weeks caught as like we're. What's going on with the rocket ship company, you know like

You know, I know you did the one last month and you don't have one coming up his I gotta get the third one coming up as well. Has that going as well blow that went up is number spacex. As I say, oh two weeks of money left in tesla and spacex she blew up the first two rockets to blow up the third spacex is over, is a gap as I I can load you couple million dollars. They don't have like a ton he's like it's. Ok friend be. Has loan be some money. He were. An elon has been super public about this. I would never tell a story unless he hadn't been, but he was talking to it. He never said who it was but somehow launder money to keep my look. He was he was functionally bankrupt. I mean they had the equity in companies, but the equity quickly becoming worth zero and the financial crisis in use figure.

If he's going to go on vacation for christmas or not and he's on the phone trying to you, know him and you know, save the save both companies and certainly there must be some good news and he takes out his blackberry to date. This conversation there no iphones taylor's blackberry and he starts swiping and he says tell anybody. This is when a building- and he showed me the model s. And nobody knew that was working on them unless we know is doing them up that roadster and is trying to save the company, and I looked at as like that gorgeous. It was the clay models so as a full size, clay models of their human being standing around a clay version of this tiny little black. We pick from scrolling through on the. That little le pad only all lack grants rolling back. This is fucking great, and I said to myself.

What's the range going to be as well, I think we get two hundred fifty miles. Two hundred fifty miles the gavin could be the safest car ever said. What is it going to cost? He says I think this could cost eventually fifty sixty thousand dollars, I said elon if you make that car you'll change the god world you have to this company must survive because the road stores for like two thousand people in eight states, this cores for every person, united states, every single person. The I sates needs will want this car if it's fifty thousand dollars, and maybe some of the people who you have twenty or thirty thousand cars won't be able to afford it the law wanted it's gorgeous hand. He said really think so that yeah so I got home, and I talked to my wife jade and I said you have the checkbook. She does all the finances and stuff like that pays

belgium whenever, and I said I don't know anybody you want to make in this great car and I wrote to checks for fifty thousand dollars, and I took up his paper and rode a comma love love the new car I'll take two. I signed it a kiss. The two fifty thousand objects put them in the envelope and affects the tomb for monday delivery and I said to jade that hundred thousand dollars is going to be gone in forty eight hours was, will pay from one or two days a pair of tasks. Like professor. We just that, like instead of two weeks, the railways got twelve days and the checks on cash. But then I read a story that he's closed. The money saved the company like the next week or two and a couple months later, the czechs get cashed, three years later I get an email, your reservation number from tesla your reservation number,

cyril: zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero one amendment, five sex, later you're reservation of reserves era. Seventy three and I worried the number one to elon? And I you know I can't take number one signature number one. I can't take that at yours, I got five of them and besides you're the first person watered it, and I was the first personally I'd seen her, give me to be teary eyed that I know it was a very useful moment. It was an incredible moment for both of us and we talk about it. Sometimes You know those moments in time and when you to your point about lot any longer darkest moments, but one of the darkest moments in his life, probably the military issues I can tell you- is the darkest period of his life for sure in he's been very public about how dark that was needed. we know this is why I have great sympathy for the entrepreneurs of the world like the suffering and the pain and when he talks about the suffering and the pain that

all these factors have felt and then we were throwing rocks at them or criticising them as they try to change the world and save humanity, and in teslas case I mean they weren't, you know they they warrant like delivering pizza me. They were trying to get us off of fossil fuels like this was a big hetty mission to literally save the inn. I am at the planet, humanity and the way they shorted that stock and they attacked him. It was always perplexing to me why any human being who is standing on gots green earth would want to throw rocks at the guy who is trying to stem the dam of global warming that is about to engulf all of us. How dare they throw rocks at that guy so many people within Iraq that there's somebody who's making the jewel vaporize pro rocks at that scumbag, no offense, but like whoever's, in the jewel things in it, you know selling pina Collado flavour to twelve year olds like throwing rocks at them.

Somebody's doing something. You know abhorrent, but not ie. I mean and yeah anyway that that car is up the road here sitting under a cover who had twenty thousand miles on it. In my garage. and then the roadster number sixteen in the garage next to it, and every day, by the two of them, in a warm feeling in my heart, because I know you did it at against all odds against all odds. He pulled it off any. It was that moment that month in that too, that there was jack. It was probably December january december of two thousand and eight. I think he was just twelve years ago when you think about thirty years ago. It was dark. I mean it was, Nay, they must have the same. They happen given the motto three production in june of two year three years ago: and I remember him just trying to get them on a three at the door and the company almost crashed. Then most of these,

These have been on. This kind of moments am- and I think friendship is you get what you give you get what you give and if you are there for me, So you're gonna feel so good about having done that, and then the though the risk provocation. A fact which you'd probably know very well is so great in the world any time your kind to people you build, isn't double bond and then what? What are we at the end of the day lex? Besides, series of memories with the people. We love. That's all it is it's just, series of memories and moments. It's just moments, oversee blade, run, just remember what Rucker Harris as at the end, all these memories gone like tears in the rain. Think that's our existence. It just all goes away at some point: it's just these drops of rain each.

each of those memories. Just like one snowflake, one drop a rain and they're all lost at some point, but they're here now and that's why we have to be there for each other that why I feel like what I do is so important in this world and I get such great meaning out of it just being a friend just having these conversations, what you're doing on your part s just talk, to intelligent people and spreading the word in the disciple of the gospel What they're saying amplifying in europe wearing so many people every park as you, two five hundred thousand people million people watch these videos and there, sir, Can kid in sri lanka, where some, girl in Afghanistan, who's gonna, stumble upon this on youtube and negative, the world in the next century because is not just about america. We are stories almost overwrite, liquid, we were the story of last with three hundred years. I hope it keeps going, but there's all these other places world, SAM paolo in africa, where people now have access to these videos and said

we will have this video ngo, you long did it on that Jason was a friend and how in lex, does those interviews with you? I could do here were all magical moment of love amidst the suffering with the line because you ve talked about it. He'll have these ripple effect. Save think about, and so we are to come in new entrepreneurs being born new, more love being put out there in the more support than his rough time. when your too, are trying to create new things? mean that that's a a beautiful thing is a beautiful. I'm glad you think of friendship in this way and deeply grateful the year loyal ever The time you invest, you are a hero. Here's the thing costs you nothing to make this investment either the the amount of time it takes to be bitter or angry or sitting at home

to be disappointed. You could just channel that same amount of energy into being loyal, loving kind and therefore people. It just only takes the intention, right the waters. Can those emotions are gonna flow right like sand always tell me when I was struggling in my life, and I talked him. He aim jason, your brain spewing. All these ideas, Imagine you are standing sitting by river and the room is all your ideas. You are not if any one of these ideas to just whipping by like each of those little waves in the river, you can pick one of those ideas out and look at it in examining and either keep what's more back in the river, let it go and I lousy, and that that was I of my entire friendship with SAM Harris. That was like the one moment where I should like. Oh my god, oh my wife have wondered but all these thoughts in my head in securities. We know unpopular syndrome. I didn't go to mit. You know, I am the smartest guy Somehow I made a career

writing little fifty k, checks and now you know a three million dollar checks, but whatever you know, little checks and being a journalist and two in this little pocket. in its head, is ended up to something, and I can't I'm proud of it, fifty and I'm kind of proud of what I did and I, wake up every morning to retired I say like when I do. Kind like having a conversation and writing the check and then be Somebody's team and I offered to be in these giant mega funds. They jason you're, an idiot. You investors sixty companies a year. You know five hundred created, I you put thirty million dollars a year to work. Come work with us right. One. Fifty million are check and then you can go to ass, been in Kabul in guatemala not work. But why are you do not work for the fifteen? an arch hackers like it's like a formality, being an atm like the companies are already huge by that time, I really want to meet the two people with the idea I want to. Meet them in your one. I want to meet them.

Day zero. I won We, the guy, who wrote the first second and third check one guy with three thousand check the last check, fucking boring and make that basic, human connection and authority there be would mean that the rough times be with them. With that force I mean the first early successes, that's a big eyes so great when they went when, when a founder and their team product market fit and you just know it's gonna work. Man lacks it's when when com would email me, and they say we can't. You know that companies been growing, we're not gonna go out of business, but we added some sleep stuff, and then we added this their feet function and we have a streak now and We grew tax. Unless we now have three months, and I were good, you don't think. That's like. Oh that's nice.

Get a nice feeling when you get what, because so many of them die, we talked about the jake early. Imagine it's like it's like all these baby turtles going to the ocean in the seagulls are ripping unto, shreds and then their share. a treat them but then, like a couple of turtles. Make it become wise old hundred year old turtles in and you're like yep. I remember when new catched am all of your brothers and sisters were ripped to shreds privacy gus. you made it into the water and then you made it out to the deep water. I am pretty gray feel I think there is no better way to end. There is talk of the cruelty of life. That suffering his life and love. Amidst the suffering jason. Absolutely I've been affair for a long time you one of the most special people silicon valley, thanks less maybe you'll, also call me in one of the rough times I asher doubly many there.

b. I you know you there's one expression: nobody gets her alone, nobody gets her alone and anybody who thinks that they go there alone is delusional and getting themselves and they will have wake up and realise a shed. There are A lot of people helped me get here. I need to write a couple of gratitude letters. I got a gratitude letter the other day from a friend of mine who I helped, and I was one of the You know what these gratitude letters, people writing. It turns out more solid men in their authentic happened, and we, the guy, who really studied happiness, enjoy turns out. One of the greatest amplifies of joy and your life is to thank somebody for doing something for you and somebody who had helped to throw me away and I got a christmas and had the stock of christmas cards and I had an open them in its can we of january, and I was just getting to like the last act and I open it up and I almost missed. It is incredibly heartwarming letter about how meaningful-

like certain things I had done to help along the way and how he ordered always appreciate my counsel, and I was just like what this happened twenty five years ago and you wrote this letter now and it just hit me like a ton of bricks. I was just like wow, you know if you're hearing this. there's probably ten people who were really instrumental in your lives in your lives, go ahead and call on the phone write them innumerable, even better, just write a letter and send it to them and just tell them your thankful, and let me tell you something: the amplification of joy. Why Fogel a hundred acts, a hundred acts when you tell somebody you loved them, and that you really appreciate them and that what they did was magical. So, just then look it up gratitude. Gratitude is right when it is incredible forces I'm greater sitting on the bar, I'm good at it.

it wasted. All this time would love it. Thanks for listening to this conversation, Jason calacanis and thank you to our sponsors, brave browser, linode linux, virtual machines, forcing magic, mushroom, coffee and rev speech to text service click, the sponsor links to get it This girl the support this by gas and now let me leave you with the words from the man himself, jason camus, the number one reason a startup shuts down is not running out of money the number one reason a start of fails. The founder gives up. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time,

The.