The following is a conversation with Michael malice. His second time in the park cast he's an anarchist political thinker, podcast her an author. He wrote dear reader, which is a book on north korea and the new write a book on the various the illogical movements at the fringe of american politics, he house the broadcast called your walk. Spelled while you are in general,

There's a lot of live, shows on youtube. There are at times profoundly absurd and at other times absurdly profound and always full of humor and was them. He has the joker to my bad man and the caviar to my vodka. His mask full dance between dark, humor and difficult, even dangerous ideas. Challenges me to think deeply about this world and one that fails elite smile and have a good laugh at the absurdity of it. All. This episode has much of that. His outfit, for example, the exact inverse of mine with white sue and a black shirt, is just one example of that of the humor trolling

brilliance, that is Michael malice, quick mention of our sponsors, not sweet business management, software, athletic greens, all in one nutrition, drink, son, basket, meal delivery, service and cash app. So the choice is success: health, food, our money choose wisely, my friends and if you wish click the sponsor links below to get this count at the support this by gas as a side. No, let me say that Michael is in many ways a man of radical ideas, but also a man with kindness in his heart. Those two things are great ingredients for a fascinating conversation. I hope to have several such people on the spot gases upcoming year, who also have radical ideas about politics, science, technology and life. At times, often perhaps

might fail it ask in the challenging questions that should be asked, but I will try my best to do so and hope to keep improving every time. Mostly. I come to these conversations with an open mind and with love, and fortunately that kind of approach can be taken advantage of and many way it can be used by reporters or just people online later to highlight how or why ignore it, at worse am generally not a good human being. In the context of this, I have two options. I could either be cautious and afraid or second be kind, thoughtful and fearless. I choose the latter, hopefully, while still being open, fragile and empathetic. Again I strive to be

like the main character of the idiots by dusty, the yassky. That's my new year's resolution be kind and do difficult things, difficult conversations, difficult, research projects and difficult entrepreneurial adventures. The enjoy this thing subscribe on youtube, reviewer and apple podcasts, follow on spotify, supporter and patron. a connect with me on twitter elects Friedman as usual. I do a few minutes of as now and no ads in the middle. I tried to make these interesting, but I gave you time stem sophie skip please to check out the sponsors by clicking on links in the description is the best way to support this podcast. They show sponsored by not sweet this once more Business owners out there running a business is hard, spoiler alert. If you

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the only one daily drink to support better health and peep performance. I can't say enough positive things about these guys. I love them. It replaced them. dividing it? For me, I went far beyond that was seventy five vitamins and minerals. I do intimated fasting of sixteen to twenty four hours every day and always break my fast with athletic. the greens? It helps me not worry whether I'm getting all the nutrients. I need one many reasons. I'm a fan of these guys is that they keep iterating other formula. I love continuous improvement. That's what makes engineering superfund life is not about reaching perfection. It's about constantly star, for it and making sure each innovation is a positive daughter. The other thing I've taken for a long time outside of afloat agrees is fisher. Some especially excited now that there are selling visual and are offering listeners of this here. Pocket

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Also donate allows. The first an organization is helping to advance, robotic systemic stem education for young people around the world, and now here's my conversation with Michael, as the knock knock knock stealing that I'll kill your family style knock knock joke works, knock, knock Michael, you don't do knock, knock jokes with the russians knock at the door. She turned off the tv. You gotta stay quiet, every health. They go away this. You don't have that paragraph eleven. You know this is true:

losing their care. He would do now knock knock. Who is there leon Leon who we on me when you're, not strong, Michael, but all that will never happen. I stole elegantly eloquently their joke from yahoo delighted sector turf. That was high eloquently an eloquent know. Yeah, you cross the on a paper. That means it's real The reason I bring it up is cause you had the guts, the brilliance to to do a knock, knock joke, not once but three times with Alex Jones. I think it was like six. I had a runner okay, maybe I just they started to sort of melt together and, as beautiful what form that you've created, which is like these kind. Loving knock, knock jokes with Alex jones, so you got the chance to meet him and talk to them twice without him.

Oh yeah, and now long form conversation was like talking to Alex, shows both on the deep philosophical intellectual level and staring the man in his eyes. and doing a log back joke about olive knock knock who's there, I love you. I said yeah there's a lot to explain Where do you start. I've been in his show infowars few times when I researching my book than you right, so I had had conversations than before. One things that I appreciate about Alex is. He is a lot more self aware. Then people think and has a good sense of humour, and I also like a good twist ending. So if you set people up and all these jokes are these kind of vapid allah view jokes

The last one is about building seven they're, not going to see that one coming. Nor will he see that one coming I even had another one about sandy hook, which I didn't do on the air, because he was being like a good sport sided, but that was the dagger that was kind of behind my back if necessary, but it was a good mechanism toward I I like it when things work on several levels, it was also good mechanism to keep kind of the conversation guarded and this every so often this is kind of hitting the control delete and bring it down. To a certain point of calmness. What about the love thing? You're saying that that that was a build up to the dagger, but it was. It also somehow really refreshing to get that little jolt like that pause, you don't get that in conversations, often like I'm a huge fan of rogan and he have a three hour conversation but at some point just

cause and be like? I love you. Man like it's in the cheapest way possible because this seems to be it somehow hits. Hardest. Then I don't know. I know you didn't intended that way, but with Alice just sit there and say I love you. Those like that was, I just haven't, never heard that before, and so it struck me as like, not just funny for what you're doing but just like. Well, we just cause. The conversations are all about like this ranting, especially with Alex jones you're, just like ranting about this, or that this this part of the world, like he believe this shit. That kind of thing but like to pause and be like this is awesome. I dunno, if you felt that way, but all I definitely felt that way, so is actually very funny I'll give you the backstory of how that happened, and it it was. It was almost. It was silly cause tim calls me up and there's this expression in marketing dunkle pass the sale right. So, if you're,

Wanna sell someone a car and, like it's got this feature this feature that feature and they're like you know what I'm going to buy the car. If you keep talking, you can only make them lose the sale. You just get them to sign and get get out of dodge. So tim calls me up and he goes okay, here's what we're thinking this is top secret Alex is going to be on the show we want you on as well, and I've never said yes to anything as quickly my life and and then he keeps talking and I'm like TIM this you don't have to sell it. I interrupted him, I go, you don't have to sell it. Why you, by the way, I think, because I am kind of an agent of chaos and Alex, is in his own way, an agent of chaos and what is provides an opportunity in this kind of news media space that you and I travel in it's the kind of things where none of us. Three, you knows we set on the show, knew what it would be like if you and you know to certain within certain parameters, what you know

Megan kelly or wolf blitzer, or any these corporate figures are going to be like in a conversation to some extent, none of us had any idea and I knew they didn't know. I was bringing knock knock jokes, so that was kind of what was so ex. So I set at one point I'm kind of envious of the audience, because this is this, so the exciting things that are happening and that the internet and podcasting provides people opportunity to do that to you. It was great gather that was the greatest pairing. Without Johns I've ever seen by far sewing outlook, I think so. immediately knew now. This isn't a knock on tim by I dont even know if was prepared. Tim was not prepared for this company be prepared. Well so I mean I dunno of TIM. used to that. I think your rogan is more equipped prepared for the chaos. Just the years he's been,

a? I immediately thought this is the right perry for job cause she has been I jus arrogance a few times it is my favorite. So far was with him. Don't I project when you hear Not when tat was clearly. Item done was also kind of via a genius it in its own right, but he was kind of a fan and he was back in. He was stepping up way. He was almost like in awe of Alex Jones. Where you were both. You were in awe of the experienced as being created at the same time fearlessly, just trawling the situation, I mean to do not match up to stop me. They're just shows that you are in control, There are now you're right riding the experience that emerge ITALY was like this needs to be on. Rogan said. I hope that happens.

While you are on your own, of course, I remember just you. That's an experience that the whatever discovery a good name for a jimi hendrix experience. there might be an hour later there was a ban is taken. Well, that war, I rami years you can. You can restart the the experience, because I feel so interrupt you you a very big responsibility, especially in twenty twenty, to provide fun and something cool and something unique that hasn't been done before for the audio I think this has been a very rough year on our audiences, psychologically and and other aspects of their lives. So I feel If I'm going to be there, I'm going to put on a show- and it's also going to be great because it also alienates the people. You don't want right. So there's a lot of people who sit there be like oh he's selling, not be people who are too cool for school or were like oh he's, telling

not jokes this is stupid and my good, if you have an issue with having eaten cotton, candy or doing a puzzle, but the kid with without it begins by yourself. That's on you and it's something very I s. Something I think is the enemy of cynicism, and this idea that, like out this is too silly and embrace me sick. We need that kind of childlike aspect in our lives. I think it's something we could use more of its very much an aspect of our media culture. That kind of have to condemn the tory about that or to do it in a certain way. Corporate fake way, so it is something I encourage a lot something I enjoy doing and again I would like, with the first time I was on TIM, I had a propeller beanie on you know with the motor. and a lot of people were like. I can't take anyone seriously who dresses like this. I go good if you judge someone's ideas by how they appear instead of the ideas themselves. You're, not someone! I want on my team: are we gonna do

press the outfit you're wearing. We can just issue for those who are coloured mind my hip mercosur, hang the hour to urge, is listening to this. Michael's, wherein the exact opposite the universe. From from another dimension outfit, which is a white suit black shirt, so genius? Okay, so have you just see? The next two looks. I've planned now know yeah they're great well, obviously, this relationships could

it also put them on insta. Okay. Is there some deep philosophy to the humor? Is this concern trolling discussion? Is there some? Is there like chapters to this genius, or is this just the? What makes you smile in the morning I mean, I, I think you're honestly in this case use the word genius a little loosely. This is particularly genius, but I do think it is fine It is exuberant. It is joyous us. I think that the bigger my audience has gotten and the more I actually communicate with you no offense, I do feel it kind of kicks in these paternal matter,

instincts its, which is very, very odd. I did not expect to have the women whose the dead I'm the dead and the mom. I remember, and it may have a similar fume curious to hear it for young smart, like ambitious men like twenty four to twenty seven, for me, was a very rough. period, because that's the window where a lot of people get married and they cannot check out, and if you are very much kind of finding her own road. You don't know happening? No one is in a position to really guide you or help you and it's it's it's tough. It's a very tough window and but I'm finding now- is having these kids who are in that position, but now, instead of them stumbling along for some them, I'm the one who could be like none, and now it's not you everybody else and to be able to give them that semblance of feeling scene to use english expression to feed well normal and that no no you're that you're the you're the heroes here and there the background noise, it's just,

really very flattering and humbling to be enough, the many minds right. There's the thoughtful kind michael there. Like I'm were burned down the powerful yeah mike yeah. Was like I'm going to have this just light: hearted trolling of the world yeah which and which of those are most important to the twenty four and to the twenty seven demographic. I think. It is the combination. You know it's like. If you're making a meal, you know chicken, kiev, you need the chicken, you need the ham. You need the butter sauce because I think people when you are young, you need to see someone. Who's fought the fight for you and whose one so it's very easy to be It is so this is what winning looks like this is not a bit

most assuredly winning does not look like, but in my normal clubs What is more, this is a good time to mention the clothes wise you you're wearing she thunder, and people should by sheath underwear these code, maoist twenty. If you're gonna shoot anybody com, he's, probably maoist, twenty, what I love about, why I'm glad to promote the product and where it it's the most comfortable underwear, I've ever worn, and you have a separate pouch for both parts of your genitals that that's what you I thought there was like a punch line coming know it's a very nice aspect of the product yeah, but I think what here's something This just goes back we're just talking about. There are so many, and this is going to go into this there so many small companies who have been devastated this year. We have not seen a sustained attack on mom and pop shops like we've. Twenty twenty who are innovate

nurse and making something happened and when you're, just like one dude, whose put producing a product there sponsor mine, I'm happy to tits. First, what's funny that pitching underwear but hopping but it's also something I enjoy. He said small business here, yeah things microscopic like a thimble, so this isn't a sponsored mine, but this is a good segue. So this is russians, we celebrate new years and none of them got them. We have jet moto us, he comes down, puts a press. under your pillow. So this is a company called jail lawson he's a fan of yours is a metal worker and he said: can I give you something to give to lex? I have won a his worry coins. I'll tell you what it is he's not a sponsor. This I'm not getting paid for this. So what a worry coin is I carried around in my, but if you have raw denim, it's great because it brings you fades so you carried around with you all the time it says worrying is like paying a debt. You don't owe Right in a hurry this around and allows them with a year

next time. You're worrying- and this is good advice. If you don't have a worry coin, gold think about ten years ago, yes, and what you were worried about, then and then think about did any of those things pan out and some of them did, but you are able to handle it and that's a good way to maintain expect us to jail, lessens the company he sent me. This said, let me give it to lex on air, so enjoy salsa open to J, l, lawson and co. Two legs from Anthony yeah and I said, make something mathematical for lex. I don't even know what's in there, you'll know what's in it and it got through with tsc could be a bomb. It could be just like this episode make sure you unwrap it close the mic as address for crazy. That's really, the best part

is this: what unboxing video sites like set up this causes me to be a big hit on the internet. I had boxing, can you get it. I need to have an excited look on my face to make sure that the reaction video is beyond boxing a reaction. Videos like screamin, react another box. It's if there is a box, it's lex fan since hearing you on rogan months ago, most your guest. Sir over my head, but still enjoyable. Ah, like this episode, my was kind enough to want to share my work with you, keep doing what you do anthony lawson and they said there is a lot in there. I didn't give you some all of them, thereby

ship showed to the camera and then make sure you look excited or not or disappoint. This is called. This is a worry coin like I'll show you, so you hold in your hand and when you couldn't do this with your thumb, if people are have anxiety or whatever or there's a lot of cool stuff in here, fibonacci coin I'll see, that's the math stuff, that's really awesome! This is really cool. When you got a big one landing there too. That's what she said. I'm telling you Last time you found me saying I know I've humor side spin tray micro, brass and copper bronze by the way, the packaging, epic? I think that is tat. He he makes tops cool you spent in there and the two different

bronze and copper, I think he's the only one who makes these machined tops and then the sitting here, I guess, yeah, but you could spend a minute stack. That section got cool was the was the worst Here is the worry Clinton anyway listening where we worry about ten years ago, ten years ago, twenty eight hand well what I ve been worried about that a government? Now I'm not that's, not a worry I was in north korea, book of apple that came out in two thousand and fourteen. I went there in twenty twelve came on january, twenty fourteen. It still pay my rent, And with the royalties so to north korea, but yeah see, this is the this is why it's so much better to talk to you about self publishing cars amd brought that up and suddenly I'm doing the next book salsa can be self published. Can if I were self publishing what was that was the whole idea of

publishing like having a publisher, an agent there's, a bunch of people been ing out to me, try and get me to write a book which is ridiculous. Why there there's people who are brilliant folks, like you, like Jordan, peterson that I think have a lot of knowledge to share with the world. I think what I feel I can contribute to the world in terms of impact is to build something Ok, meaning like engineering stuff, ok like a book the engineer and using loosely you have then Janeiro book it would not. fischer, I, what I mean is literally a product with programming and artificial intelligence, while this on a building company. I want to have a few ideas that I feel I'm equipped it has to do with you're like intuition, the way you can build a better world. You individually,

What can you add to the world as a positive thing, and for me I feel like them. Maximal thing I can add to the world is at least to attempt to build products. That would add more love in the world, and I saw a fox on that danger the book for me or any kind of writing any. Even this package is a little but dangerous for me is like it's different fisher s. It's fun! It's like take soon to this place. We start thinking about the world star, enjoying and playing with ideas. You start like I just your book on a generator, but also the new right, like you clearly, we unite, probably think similar in the sense that did a lot of work. Yes, this next book, as is killing me yeah, as you mentioned, often its clear. I I neer youtube channel from a fellow

you often exist comes out, like you mention all of these books, the your reading. It just comes through you that your suffering through this in you because it changes you and it's clear that you're thinking deeply about the world because of this book, and I feel like if you do that, that's a ca, whereas when I first came to this country, I ever read the book the giver. I need to read again: it's like it. The the red pill thing. Is it changes you in where you can never be the same person again and I feel I feel about a book in the same way. The moment you re a book, though they may of course, depends on the book. I could also just write like in my feel, every technical book not ass, terrible idea, yes, but that that's ok, that doesnt, really cheap,

is yeah, that's just like sharing information but like something where you're like. How do I think about this world? Can you just leave that behind you? I get it. Do it's it's a it being pregnant! There's it! It never escapes your brain until you are absolutely right. Yeah it doesn t change it, but the reason being that up is cause there's a whole industry of people that are simple not really contribute much to the publication process, but they they make themselves seem necessary, like if you want to be in the new york times, bustlers car thing, but also just being like reputable yeah. What is it I'm allergic to the whole concept, but it does using as possible to be, and in your task best seller list and be a beautiful author and still be some published, not what you would want to do. Likewise, let marxist anything is his name. He wrote like the primal blueprints like if I'm getting the names correct and he's the one the first pillar,

LEO guy right so he's he put cell, published it it's old gangbusters without begun health chart, I believe- and it is a little bit of a different situation- you'd be reaching much more for the mainstream you'd, be giving up a lot. If you go through a publisher, explicitly financially but yeah you're not going to have the crab, because there in the publishing is a cartel than your times for this cartel, and if you don't publish within this cartel, they will do. What they can, as any cartel has do, by necessity, being cartel to pretend you don't exist, so they will. I was, I think, first one to have an hour unbooked tv for dear reader causes. kickstarter book, but this is I think that people do reader was a kick suitable yeah. This is something people would have to be aware of so, you would be giving up a lot, but

It also be giving a lot to work with the publisher cause you're losing what a year and a half your life, because. Their glacial and they don't care? What this does my problem is that the money, only the money is whatever percent they take. Ten twenty thirty, though they fifty percent there not taking a huge chunk. So if I sell a book through Saint Martin, it's a dollar. If I sell a book through amazon, which is dear reader, that six dollars. So that's what eighty seven percent is something crazy. But for me, what bothers me is that the money that that for me personally for me, what bothers me incompetence? whenever I go to the gnp or something like that- and I can I interrupt you here. Let's talk in confidence. New right comes out last year es. I get an rugen get on reuben. I call them. I said I got in the shows. Is their money in the budget for travel and they say we know how the

budget. Fine, by the way you gotta know, shows with no help from the reality at its lead in question. The reason they would want you to do a book is because they know You could get the only reason people get book deals nowadays, literally, is because they know that person can market on book. That's the only way, and I got to ruben, I got a rogen and they think it would have the money for the watch for travel, which is fair. They can do skype. They told me this in writing and I'm like okay and they can financially cover skype. But it's like hey joe yeah. We don't have the budget, but you can do skype elope It's so there is. Another friend of mine was on a show and CNBC with seem to lab and they said no seem want to copy the book and they're, like oh yeah yardstick, four o clock on friday. So reclose, so that he's like he went there, picked it up and walked in

two blocks. So there is it's almost cartoonish rare and it's not incompetence, it some its past that it's something almost you I really believe that I've had to friends who have been literally rendered suicidal, because this is such a huge opportunity for them and they was like watching their kid get beaten from them, and I had to talk them off the ledge, so its people do not appreciate how bad he bad. Here's example. The apathy of bureaucracy somethin like that. That, though I did this book concierge confidential, there's a tie, a type on the first chapter, dance with I'm about to tee, o o. They fix it for the paper. I don't care it's it's just like wow, okay, yeah great book by the way got it got. Npr gave one the books the year, so that was good. So why participate

in this, because otherwise your times is gonna, pretend you don't exist getting book on some, but on some shows might be more difficult, although I think that collapsing in real time not gonna, get reviewed, necessarily places like p, w or some others. So the new book you're working on you know it earlier like Hell. Do I put. Are you so publishing that oh yeah fisher? There was the thinking behind that. Just because your we have a huge following a platform and foreman it six times the cash. If I standish the book in December, I could have it out in February. If I finish the book in december of the publisher, it's gonna be out in december at the earliest twenty twenty one. Why my giving up ten months and my life would this? Is the big one giving leverage like who do authors have leverage to say a few. I can. You

you say you were even look meaning like I want to release this book into months. Our none of the I mean you have a car attracting then your age, you could fight it, but they don't have the bureau. They don't have the capacity to rush things through yeah. I guess, if the cause I have heard, like the big authors, I dunno sam Harris. All those folks talk about like they've, accepted it actually they've accepted or la guerre, takes a long time to. accepting it, but the boy you're kind of implying that a human being like me should, like I'm saying, vizier options. so I just hate, I hate the waiting because its incompetence, it's not that it's not necessary. The way, if I knew it wasn't, you know if it was the kind of people that are up at too I am at night.

On a friday and they love what you're doing in their helping create something special assistance. I get with some of the netflix folk, for example, that work with people I just I dunno anything about this world, but you get like netflix folks who, who help with shows it. You could tell that therapy fast with those show, while united abolishing. If you like, I handed the book in, I think it was July. I didn't hear anything from my editor until december Well. Can you actually talk about the suffering sure the darkest parts of writing a book? So let us go to the fore. Michael Mouse, and king mode of one of the darkest moments of writing this book and what is it may be start the white pill? What's the idea? What's the hope and worry

darkest moments around writing this book. So people are familiar with the red pill. The blue pill, the the red these dirt there for the matrix. The red pill is the idea that what is presented, as fact by the core press, entertainment industry, is in fact a carefully constructed narrative designed to keep some very unpleasant people in power and everyone else. Under control, and, as one of my expressions is you take one read pill, not the whole bottle, because at a certain point you think everything's lion than europe. You kind of new capacity for distinguishing truth. You for good one minor. So thank you, I'm full of something, that's for sure and what I saw in this space is a lot of these redfield people got very disheartened, Cynical and one of my big heroes is out

canoe- and he said the worst thing- a citizen and that's what the lead suddenly called the black pill, which is the idea that you know it's it's all of it's. It's it's just waiting for the end. If it's hopeless, and I don't see it that way at all like all right. I have to address this and not just with someone if cheerleading everything's going great guys here is why I am positive and not that I'm positive, the good guys are going to win, but I am positive. The good guys can win and that's all you need, because if you're god forbid, kid is kidnapped and there's a ten percent chance it's that you can save them, you're not going to be like wow. I don't like those odds. This is your country. This is your values. This is your family and I think it's much more than ten

and even if you lose, you will take pride in that you did everything in your power to win. So is there a good definition of good guys in the sense that you were white. There's layers of this you're like modern days shakespeare. Is there a danger and thinking at off, hitler was probably pretty could cover that he let a group of good guys within. If hitler didn't think wrong, rising in jail. Czech friends, Well, that's just actually. He says it is accurate. He goes if hitler so bad. Why isn't he in that jail? That's a good point, he's probably still alive right and look yeah. Hopefully, oh boy, two of the three people listening to this

very upset right now. What were we even talked about? Oh, how do you? How do you know the wood is good? There's lots of standards of good, but if you were for me to be a good guy is if you want to leave the world a little bit better than you found it, that to me is the definition of a good guy and I think there are many people that that does not their motivation as far as the volume motivation for its also, but if your mother nation is at all correlated to reality,. you know, one thinks we're the bad guys that that's correct. But are you taking steps to check, motivations and and also take certain amount of humility, because if you are going to start interfering with people's lives really better be sure you know you're talking about the trawl of others who do have central Has control or any kind of. You become a leader of a group. You better

No, you better do so humbly and cautiously and are also have thus esteem valves right. So if king case things go wrong, let's have it I'm sure this is what happened with a I would have work with computers like ok. If something goes wrong here, how do we have a work around to make sure it doesn't cause everything to collect yet the going wrong thing. I mean that the whole the feedback mechanism yeah. I guess I wonder if people in congress thing that things are really wrong. It's working for them. Are you sure, because I'm not sure, because I I like to believe that the people then at least when they got into politics, actually wanted? Some of it is ego, but some of it is like wanting to be the kind of person That builds a better world sure I'd also think it's a dead, diverse, some who are going to have different motivations than others, but like

Why once you're in the system and try to build a better world? How do you know that is not working like whoa? How do you take the basic feedback mechanisms and like and actually productively change? I mean that's what it means to be a good guys like hmm, something is wrong here. It is that's why, like the armas, they think from first principles like we're. Okay, let's ask the big question like: can this, be it one? Is this working at all like the way we're solving this particular problem of government? Is this working at all and then like stepping away and saying like as opposed to? modifying this bill or that bill or like this little strategy like increase the tax by this might should decrease attacks by this much like, why do we have a democracy at all? or why do we have any kind of representative? Democracy should not be appear democracy

or why do we have states like proposition states the federal government so on. Why do we have this kind of separation of powers? Is this different, I won't have term limits or knowledge big things. How do you actually he'd make that happen in? Is that what it means to be a good guy is like taking big revolutionary steps. as both incremental steps, but I do know that you can politician big guy to be analysed and let me go, A counter example, someone who you could tell is not being a good guy, Joe Biden said he was he regards the iraq war was a mistake. Okay, you and I have made mistakes in our lives, have sure none of our mistakes have caused tens of thousands of people to die, and if, let's was a week for yourself, I that's fair, okay I'll. Take that I don't build the kill bots

If I were a chef, but they got a politics and in my restaurant somehow tax stanley, someone eight something they died a I would feel horrible. But more importantly, I would be like we need to look The system and figure out how it got to the point where someone lost their life, because that can never happen again and we need to figure out step by step its there's an I'm, not a gun person, but there is, like this checklist of like if you're holding a gun, there's five things. to do, and even if you get to wrong it can be set you it's like assume. Every gun is loaded only pointed at something that you want to kill and there's like three other things, and it's like to make sure that nothing goes wrong. So if I made it, if I'm not chef- and I would have to not only feel guilt but take preventative action to make sure this has no possibility,

I've happening again. If you look at the staff he's putting in its the same war mongers that would have advised him to get into the iraq war on the first time. That is to me is not a good guy. That's me one who does not feel remorse for their responsibility and killed not only many americans, but some of us think that you know, debt iraqis isn't necessarily ideal either. Ok, let's talk a bit about war, and maybe you can also correct man something the first time found myself into Barack obama. Was I don't know how? Many years ago this was but when I may be heard a speech you his about him speaking out against the war yeah and him, I think it some record saying he was against the war

before he was happening now he wasn't insane at the time. So is very easy for him to say this cause. I see like people say that people say that people say like It was easy enough, as some people say, is strategically shut. The wise thing to do. in some kind of calculus whatever, but I to this day give him that's the reason always, given him improper. In my mind like this is a man of character. He makes I also purse. We really value great speeches. I think speeches are really important for leaders kazanovitch The world is like that's one of the most best things you can contribute to. The world is great like through into the mole day, ideas in a way that is communicable to like a huge number of people getting better to persuade them to force and in every instance, and that's where I disagree with Chomsky said like if you're a This idea was that, like, if you really eloquent speaker, that means you re

ds that good that's nonsense there. So I think that away friendly described like I speak in a very boring way, ass, a pitch for this package, as I speak, boring so that the ideas the things you value and ass. He spoke I sleep but the That's that's why I really liked obama throughout his life. Mister do, but when I first like saw, this is for some reason you can disagree. I thought he's a man of character is the one most politicians, most people who are trying to calculate and rising power, I think were for the war or too afraid to be against them. yeah. That's why I liked Bernie sanders and that's why I like MIKE? early days. Obama, for speaking out against the war and not like in this weird activist way, not weird, but

not not saying I'm an activist. This is but like just saying the common sense thing and being brave enough to say the council's thing without way having a big sign in saying I'm going to be the anti war candidates from labour. But just saying this is, What a good idea yeah and- and I think it's It'S- for those who are old enough to remember it's pretty despicable what happened with tulsi in twenties, one issue was the biggest anti or candidate, and she was marginalized than her own party, which I guess you can make sense. She just the congresswoman from hawaii, but the corporate press did everything in their power to diminish her and pretension existed and for them Thus your member were twelve years prior. You know when George w bush had the republican nash convention. New york was dick. The biggest protests Three and the iraq war led to democratic landslides in two thousand and six and two thousand?

to have that completely. Not part of the democratic party in twenty twenty is both shocking and reprehensible in morocco. Is it that you to say: hey, Michael, you just say, knock knock the side of the hill ala. What did the volcano say to his true love? What I love for you I have. These jokes are the veteran. You know how to speak: english, I it was actually in russian. I did google translate back to your book and the suffering you are. You somehow turned a positive and as as one who's wearing who's, the representative of the black. in this conversation? What are some of the darker moments? What are the some of the hardest challenges of putting together his book to wipe out all content, content content?

so, if I'm having a page in about right in taking on gerald ford in the nineteen seventy six president, primaries. I'm gonna have to read like twenty, so in its the thing like, if there be sometimes I'll, remember some quote somewhere and then after spent an hour trying to find it, because I want to be as dance with information as possible. how do you structure the did the main philosophical ideas you want to convey? is that already planned out now the book change entirely from its conception. Oh my buddy right holiday had a series of books so does where he takes the ideas of the stoics and he applies them to contemporary terms. He has a small cottage industry that is doing very well, and I'd asked him years ago. If I could do with cameo he's like shook off work and We're going to rework removes the myth of sisyphus. and I read it recently. Re read it and this

in the book. I remembered it off and I'm like. Ok, I'm gonna write the book. Then I remembered, but the or I was writing it? I one of the things I always yell at conserve is about there's a long list. Is they don't talk about the great victor if conservatism, which was the winning of the cold war without firing a shot, and I did. You can accept in your time to tell the story because the blood is on their hands and I'm like well Michael instead of complaining about it. Why don't you do it? Why don't you talk about is a great example, the good guys winning over the bad guys and that's become a it's. The victory is beautiful, but also pointing out to people people like all things are worse than they ve ever been there. They don't appreciate how bad things were in the thirties. What Stalin was due

overseas and how people in the west were advocating to bring that here. So that's kind of pointing out how bad things were an how good they became an you're, not be republican, a conservative to be delighted at the collapse of totalitarianism, peaceful liberation of half the world so that the picture of the good guys Oh yeah, how does a connected sisyphus and maybe to speak deeper too and whatever the hell the thing is, which is what I remember the mississippi speaking about solely. Where does the threat of Kemal Sarah lie: in the work that you're doing so the myth of sisyphus What I had returned and correctly is actually justify like seven five to seven page, that's the whole block at the very end, like you only need three, the less they called the myth of his face. The broader work is about come moose concept of the absurd.

and the absurd man within literature, and he goes and it's just like- I don't really care about the character and as the skin, all this other stuff that you're talking about this have no relevance but what he the myth of sisyphus the myth itself, not the book or the or the essay of his is this great character and sophist. Forced in hell to roll iraq up a hill after attorney. At the very last moment the rock falls away and can moose take away from the stories that we have done that we must imagine sisyphus happy. and there are several interpretation of this. One is once you accept that you are living and absurdest existence, once you own your reality. It loses its bite and you can see tat start with that as your kind of baseline and by suffering and hopelessness? So I think we ve people look at how much

they callousness is happening in america and its escalating, you couldn't do think. Oh all is lost, or you can and I think you and I have lived our lives like this. You can live life more like a surfer You're, never going to control the ocean, but you can enjoy that ride and stopped if you're, trying to control the waves yet you're done, but if you're like right, I've got my board amid a see where this takes me surfing from what I understand is a pretty fun activity and also sometimes dangerous way. That's tells me about that. So we were offline. Talking about stein, and the evils? the soviet regime- one other thing, they mention. I watch the movie Mister Jones it's about the nineteen thirties furthermore, the what would you say. The Torah serve the ukrainian people by Stalin. One interesting thing to me:

of the here. Your opinion about the role, journalism in all of this, and also about nineteen thirties, germany. So what's the role of journalist and intellectuals, in a time when trouble is brewing, but it requires a really serve Brave and deep thinking to understand that trouble is brewing like if you were a journalist or if you were just like an intellectual, a thinker sure, but also a voice of var in the in the space of public discourse. What would you do the authorities about stolen about other more, and what would you do about nazi germany in the nineteen thirties? seven nineteen. Thirty, eight. So that's really funny that you asked that because currently how the book a structured- it's like you know, books often follow three x structure, rights of act, threes, the eighties act, one is

The thirties in act, two is going to be like alright, let's suppose you were in the thirties. Are you just going to give up like? Are you just going to be like well we're screwed and you'd be right to say things are going to be very bad. for a long time, or are you going to be one those few who are like we're going to do something about this? And we're gonna go down swinging. There are two books I can recommend which are just masterpieces. that that written by women that just historians there is just superb there's a book called beyond belief. with epilepsy, that she talks about the rise of nazi germany. As seen through the press. And what was amazing and she's does a great job empathizing with the press. Understand that perspective? Is we remember and chamberlain gets a bad rap naval chamberlain for a kind of appeasing hitler because not that long ago they had the great war, the head world, where one and they had the carnage that the earth never seen before and when you had people made out of meet me industrial machines and plastic surgery was invented, the consequences

they're coming back mangled and disfigured, and for what- and this was a world where the kaiser was the most evil person ever lived and we all had the western propaganda about the hun and all the rapes and all this barbarism and blah blah so not that long later, when you hear while this propaganda, which was factual about hitler, is like we heard this, We heard this twenty years ago this all lies, give us some give us a break and she has all the quotes from the different agencies in addressed it plus the very limited information. It's not like nazi germany was an open society, were reporters can walk around and they were. under a lot of pressure as well. You know in the areas and hitler himself was pretty good at he. Let some stuff slip but usually he made it seem like he wants peace. He was well peace. This was

basing they were making the argument that, because all these Jews were being beaten up on the street, this proved this was the hot take of the day that hitler was weak because since Hitler's statesmen- and he can't control these hooligans, that shows his. Can colon powers tenuous, and this is all going to go away by the way I mean hitler thought that too, he was kind of afraid of the branches. Whatever have, he was afraid of these hooligans a little bit like they were useful. But like at a certain point like yet can get in the way yeah. That's why he wanted to get get control the motorcade army, like their regiment. I give you one. Take over the world, you can do with hooligans right. You have to do with the actual army, and then you had kristallnacht, which the nation wide programme. And then all the news agencies, universe, They were like a crap. We were, we got this wrong

And the condemnation was universal, so that book traces, the west's reactions what's going on there and including the reaction to the insipid holocaust as for being, you know what they knew. When did they now, there was not beauty about people. I think there's this myth that she dispels that peat that they didn't know the holocaust. happening where they didn't care, they were aware, but they were ready. It worth nazi germany like what literally? What else could they do at that point yet to rescue of all these jews so that that's a super book and an apple gown? I think the book is called red. Famine came out fairly recently and she brings the receipts. Then she said This is something I really hate with binary thinkers where the people go, you know, you're a Democrat, your basically communist d call Joe Biden a marxist, it's just like you know: she's

hard left issues. Unit has tedious, but this book, just systemically lays out, was stolen. Did brother, I am triggered by the binary thinkers and for those who don't know tds zero zero one one is that trump derangement syndrome? Yes, so they you know, forced the starvation and since high population and they it's not only that it's like they knew if you weren't starving by looking at you that you were hiding food, so they come back to your house at night and break your fingers in the door or take burned down your house and now you're in the street without food, because you lied because this is the people's food, your cooler you're, a landowner and very quickly clock which met like peasant landowner, became anyone who had a piece of bread and is with systemic. get on going and many people in the press did not believe it. There was a a british journalist, I believe who got out of the train. Ukraine, like one town,

earlier and walked, and he described all this and he was mocked and derided, and this is just anti russian propaganda because at the time the thirties, this was socialism come to fruition. This was a noble experiment. I'd seen the future and it works, as I think so. Sir sidney Webb was the guy who said that, and the premise was, let's see what happens never tried some like that and they were perfectly happy to have. This experiment happen overseas. At the price of the russian people, because it's like you know what may be the silly paradise on earth- and there isn't thy addressed this in my book as well there- Superb essay, I think by eugene genovese, and he talks about the question, the question being what did you know, and when did you know it? What did you know about the costs patient camps. What did you know what the starvation would? You know but children being taught at school to turn in their parents, for you now having some extra bread and conclusion is we all knew and we all know

in the beginning every bit of it and we didn't care because we were we're interested in promoting this ideology. So when people are kind of the worst thing on earth is like robert e lee statue being taken down to washington d c, we were being told anak and especially a much more limited news information world. Where now you have literally anyone have a twitter, but how many outlets were there that this is a we're backwards there? The sure, they're scientific. We have the vagaries of the market which led to the great depression and when you see what was being put over on the american public at the time and anyone who thinks things are as bad now ever been is simply delusional or ignorant. I would say just as a small aside that's. Why reading as I'm almost done with the rise and fall, the third reich: oh yeah, Is it its refreshes, the reset the palate

understanding? What is good and evil in the world? That thing is it really useful? Now, like you know, what helps me really positive. And almost naive on twitter, and in the world is by just studying history and and comparing to how amazing things are today, but in that time, what would you we do. What does the brave mind do and not just the acts of bravery, but how do you be effective in that? That's something I often think about sometimes easy to be an activist in terms of just saying stuff, it's hard to be effective. Your activism,

when the big questions historians have constantly is how did this happen? A tomato does happen again, but this is germany. This is not some kind of weirdo called nation. There very advanced vary in the land of poets and philosophers. How did it get to that point? that they're just shooting children everyone's cheering for this and an specifically on anti semitism in the holocaust. Let's not hold the towel, terran isn't the cult of hitler and it's just this whole kind of thing. I just decided to salvage a draw, but there's two sides: I dunno. If you want to separate them, one is the totalitarianism and the the entire, the entire I the nazi regime and then there's the holocaust, which is like in a going. I would say like very specifically, as I think you're about that cry beside. You know targeting juice, very myself. If you see those two separate

I think the very interconnected, but I think if you look at it, everyone thinks that they be the ones putting up Anne frank. But if you look at the numbers, did me the means calling the the stasi on her or the core of the people were at the time and not the stasi, obviously, and patent seldom back for it. Sorry to pause ass, a really important thing. If you listening to this that- and you are not a you're in germany at the time, you would have likely been willing to commit, or at least keep a blind to the vowels issues like we have to really sit with that idea that you would have been somebody who are just sees this and has not bother by it and also very likely. The kind of understand us as unnecessary, evil even unnecessary, good yeah, and I think people think

Did they would be? The abolition is marching on summer? The numbers dumb add the add up to that at all, and I think the question be like what is social. I my friend, was on tender, my friend he's a great dude and the question was: what's the most controversial opinion you have. This is new york, the girl wrote, I hate trump and what people per see themselves as being courageous in saying and doing and what is the actual social cost. of you saying you're doing this are two very disconnected things and were also trained by corporate media to have completely vapid on resting banal ideas and yet regard cells as revolutionaries their p. well, who still in new york, will take pride because they have a gay friend and it's like, first of all, who cares that. Second of all, you are not a hero and that persons, not your profit by the way. That's another big problem, which is widely

of richer worth a shot offer being an intellectual who talked about communism. I think, is it takes kind of rowan intellectual right now to speak about my com some seriously there's difficult waters to tread that the expression theirs but go past the word. I love watching a robot. Try to use it in a language. You two zero! Zero one one I'm a mammoth quite deeply hurt by the binary comment. Are you you're feeling has got what does here? What is lower buffers overflown but there's difficult communism is like universe the scene is a bad thing. Currently in intellectual circles, yes, are actually maybe some people disagree with that people say like file, far left people. I too we are. The same. People argue that there be a lamb movement is some kind of his mars's marxist me. I don't

I don't really follow the deep logic in that whatever but the hearings, well, they said, therefore, my marxism, the founder of you yet, but stating that is different and then this there's marks that the totalitarian is also rushed revolutionary and I think they're talking more like we're revolution, if you're going to overthrow the status quo yet right, but they we we, we can have that for the discussion, but I I just don't think they speak deeply about our political systems have and saying communism is a is going to be the righteous system that you know that there's not a deep intellectual discourse with me, but if you were to try to be on stage with the Jordan peterson like to me the brave thing now they It would be to argue, for communism may be interesting to see not many people do it and I certainly won't be willing to do it. I don't have enough, I don't for sure, don't believe it,

second of all is a very difficult argument to make, because you get so much fire just why like richard work, is one of the people who is quite rigorously showing that there is some good ideas within the system of communism is positive really saying that attack more than the negative side of capitalism, says saying that there is that capitalism potentially is more dangerous than communism, and it's out I disagree with that, but I think it's I love how something is like we ve got a body count of sixty million, but this Everything is put to. Potentially, you know, like water can drown everyone on earth. So there was incoherent, why? I think nuclear weapons are bad, but nuclear energies good sure that some little your weapons are also can be good, you can easily make the argument which I do know that ascribe to that nuclear weapons prevented the roots of the groundwork at all costs and much more contained, and there are, of course,

effective at cheap, changing the direction of an asteroid this about his earth, as I've learned for arming enemy back again and actually used? moscow, as claimed fora for application for prior to colonizing mars, making the term or habitable. Oh, ok, so that you can shoot someone else. But yes, but what I guess, where things there's this place for nuance and there's some topics so hot, like communism, when you ass, is very difficult to her and there I feel like with nazi germany. It was a similar thing at the time. I love it You want to talk rankin, who is one of my favorite people jeanette. Rankin was the first woman elected to congress, use elected before woman suffrage was master constitutional amendment offer montana he was elected in nineteen. Sixteen

She was one of a handful of people to vote against the. U s going into the great war, which was the right called the time. She's a pacifist republican is welcome Currently she lost her seat. and again in was nineteen forty. The seat again, and was only person to vote against getting into world war two? It was not a unanimous choice: jeanette rank and was the one per and she said you could no more win a war than you can win a hurricane so she's. One of these interesting for any talk about bravery, you're, the one vote, after pearl harbor to say we're not doing this. and I mean the pressures must have been at the time is and, of course, monitor What are you gonna hear her perspective? She's, crazy, she's, evil, blah blah? It's also funny someone of those my twitter, when I ve talked about it, goes, maybe shut hitler. Sub sympathies, like ms rankin, was a big fan of the hitler. That's easy!

the good at our guys? Do you think, there's an argument to be made. The united states should not have gone involved. There were two o easy uneasy argument. The argument that there is a I talk about this in the new right so on internet circle there's something called godwin law, which means the longer internet. Conversation goes on, probability? Someone gets compared to hitler becomes, one in certain new right circles, the law, where the conversation goes on the more likelihood that the argue come, we should have better world once you also becomes one the argument is, at the very least, stay back, let hitler fight, but and kill each other off go in and knock off the weak one and you can saving destroying too if the mere systems- and I think that's an easy argument to make now it's hard to pull off after pearl harbor. But in terms of strategy, I don't think that's a that's a tough sell. What about after, however, ideas so saying, after per harbouring how you gonna sell it to the people they argued.

Bubble, the holocaust, that the holocaust is there's no scenario where that doesn't happen. Really, if you unless you're going in way earlier, but even so Hitler had said if the Jews launch another war, we're gonna, wiped them from the face of the earth the jews are being held hostage by hitler, as in our griffiths. Another thing he did, which was a diabolical, is in order to make it that people could not accept jews refugees if they really germany, they had to be penniless so now, you have it's not like the coming over with money and they could take care, cells, no no they're gonna be completed destitute making, I can accept the yet millions of desperate people who speak the language. It's it's a tough cell, so speed there are good ones law. What do you make of this condition? Trumped arrangement syndrome yeah? and the idea of comparing trump to hitler. I think it's despicable and

If you had an example, something paralleled, I think more people should be regarded as regards despicable earlier and twenty twenty. We were all its hold that, unless we were in syria immediately the kurds we're going. Exterminated. They invoke the holocaust, Can we another genocide? And if you are not for this you should you're. Basically, you know forcing another holocaust, none of it people who use this argument, we didn't go to in order that the kurds were exterminated just vanished news had any consequences for using this kind of comparison. So I think it's it's really kind of fatuous. and I think it's amazing that people think Hitler's the only tyrant We lived, like everyone whose body specifically hitler You know how you know he's not hitler, because you can tweeted him and no one comes to your house to heal your family that that's kind of a big difference also there between trump and met.

His critics is that his grandchildren will be raised as Jews so that some kind of a at again then and I'm devilish that talks about this a lot the new york times at the time. There's another book called and buried by the times which talks with new york times in the world war. Two, because the idea that jews, weren't white was the hitler idea. The new york times at the time and sulzberger wanted to be against this idea. So they specifically doubt played the anti semitism as opposed to the nazis, are being oppressive. So the argument that you can separate nazi ism from anti semitism it is a historical debate. People have and my perspective is, I think it's I do not find a convincing that you can separate those. I think anti semitism was essential to nazi ism. I think not season mussolini's. She's m had very big differences,

and you think, or do you think, anti semitism is fundamental to who who hitler was as just that, so this the interesting thing is like it was a tool that he saw as being effective. Now he believed it. So Why do you see those as intricately connected could die? Hitler have accomplished, same amount or more without the holocaust yeah. Think about human resources. Yet divert time where you have barbarossa with stolen. So why are they connect? Why are they so connected? Is it because, hitler was insane or is he a bad strategist or was obviously best to adjust? He took. He had no need to open a second front, his generals. My understanding, told him. This is crazy, It didn't work out for him at all We need to draw russia

and her resources into that war? A makes absolutely no sense. In retrospect, there's a book about Frio, it's called were talked about him at that point was just high all the time on amphetamines. I could have affected, is thinking the others are really a book on drugs yeah. I know I feel what it's called, but he answered I get one but it was, I mean scapegoating is a big. And parcel of the nazi mythology. and this kind of one universal figured explain. Explain this kind of UNESCO thank you, but it could have been the communists and that that that could have been the source of the hatred. So I come still get germany into world, were one like. He said the juice did. It seems to me that the atrocity of the holocaust is the reason we see. hitler's evil. Now we recently see hitler's evils cause a world where to propaganda. Still because we don't see Stalin is evil. That's what I was a maoist evil. To that extent, I think

that. Why like? Why would you say they know why? Because much of that propaganda, because I think a lot of the problem for certain type mentality is hitler? Didn't mass murder equally So as long as you're killing just one group, it's a problem, but if you're murdering everyone equally all of a sudden, it's like I was going to do so. The fact, like you say, how? The more is not common knowledge. The fact that MAO's fifty million dead. in our common knowledge and richard Nixon can be raising a glass to him, they enjoy these are things that I think the west has not done a good job, reconciling knock knock, whose their frank frank who thank you for being my friend my And the hard its actual say, thank you for being my friend You got it! You like that, yeah now, back to hitler,

do you think hitler could have been stopped, what kind of We talked about it a little bit in terms of how to what the brave thing to do in the time of nazi germany? But do you think I mean I'm leaving it ask by Stalin in terms of good stone have been stopped because the problem as it is now, but on the hitler sites. Hitler have been stopped I think a lot of these things. A lot of luck has to play with it. He was almost assassinated. If you mean by like the west, it's very high third in india, where the german people too, I'm? U good like it for politically speaking, there is a rise to power through the thirties. Twenties really mean like. Can whoever it cyber hitler's about that kind, the way of thinking that to tell it,

and control that always leads to trouble, as some doesn't mass scale could that have been stopped in germany or maybe in the soviet union. I think this is one of the best arguments against radicalization in the states, which is how Do you engage when you have like thirty percent the population who are members of a party just dedicated to systemically overthrowing the existing democracy stolen gave orders that the communists, who had a pretty sizeable population reichstag that their target shouldn't, be the nazis, but the the liberals and the sea democrats and they invented the term social fascist for them, so, instead of their just like like jihadi instead of seeking their sights on nazi ism, they set their sights on the moderates because they wanted that they figured the choice

in hitler and us we're going to win- and this was a huge gamble and they were all killed in or had to flee and the ones who fled were killed also by Stalin said that to my And so this is the easy way where he could have been certainly heavily mitigated what about in that it was obvious that hitler's lying and they wanted peace. So bad. That they were willing to put up with it even after czechoslovakia like like this? Is the entire pacifist argument just like they should have. Threatened military force more. But then the other anti at the anti fascist argument is if you're gonna brok about mad, that the red line, if you cross the red line in syria, we're gonna go in and Assad. I was like you're cool and his Ok! Well, sorry! So if you are threatening force, there is a great song lyric

Dont show your guns unless you intend to fight right. So if it's very clear with with free countries through, what's in the press, whether the institutional will is there to follow through on these threats. So I think of you have been very hard for chamberlain to rally the british people to take on hitler. Just after the great I mean the suffering that Britain's took the great war. They still in obviously mean so much more than the nest addressed us in the west, but about what he makes Churchill then like. Why was churchill able to rally the british people why was he do give much credit to church or for being one of the great forces in stopping hitler and war war too. I don't think that's really in dispute. I think he was very much regarded as this kind of the right man at the right time and I think,

in Berlin took a gamble. He a he. The expression peace in our time was never April when he signed the piecemeal with hitler and ngos. Are we now peace, not time go home and get a good night's sleep, that's what he said because he's like a right either he's gonna stop here and it's not impossible. that is just gave like if you gave saddam Hussein kuwait? It's not impossible. That he's knock. You know invade saudi arabia next, up like that, see, ok but everything I've read it's like, of course, there's there's a it's not impossible. But when you were in the room with hitler should be able to see like man a man like like to me a great leader should be able to see past the facade and see like like yes,

everything in life is a risk, but it seems like the right route to take with. Hitler is surprising to me I know, there's charisma, surprising to me. People did not see through this facade, I I really hate the idea of hindsight in everything being twenty twenty added, it's a very good idea, generally, not those seeking joint in this specific instance to give our ancestors more credit than there than than we tend to give them cause people often here's a great example from another context, which is lightning rots people always talk or religious people being stupid superstitious and they weren't. They often were very well reasoned? An example of this is lightning rod, which is every year whatever town the church was the tallest building, and that's the one that I was got hit by lightning and got caught fire now. What it's a coincidence that it's always the church

like that makes logical sense that their didn't realize. Well, it is because the tallest, and therefore that attracts electricity Fact, when they invented lighting rods, this is a controversy. Could his leg? Well, how is god going to show his displeasure if now striking lightning rod numbering down the church, so a lot of times? Things are a lot more coherence, then we give them credit for and again in chamberlain. Didn't his head of a parliamentary party so he does not have the the freedom in a sense that a hitler would to be like alright we're doing this again boys. We don't know what it's like in a room with hitler come on that that's that's We really have no idea, but I think you have to think about that right. Yet you can, I can very easily see him in the room being very calm and charming then you think ok, the guy with the speeches is the act. he's putting on a show for his people, and this

the real one or get so was let's take. Somebody is an example, has taken Our mutual friend vladimir putin- yes, I don't know I'm saying his. They makes my boys crack. You scared a grey area of February. Beetles use the library. So there's a lot of people who see the one who built you, sir, Now that was the those collaboration. What's its double blind engineering effort, where I was not told us my maker, was it there's a back story, but time there's a talking cricket pinocchio. The burial voicing the talk about him quite a bit because I find him the fascinating

now this is a really important line that people say like. Why does lead admire, putin I do not admire Putin. I find the man ass eating. I find hitler fascinating. I find a lot of figures in history: fancy both good and bad, and the food you're, just as you said that are with us today. I find a more prudent without trump, like Barack obama is difficult to place them on this, action of good and evil, because Finally, will the applies to like when you see the consequences of their action is a historical context. So oh there's some people who say that vladimir putin is evil and based on our discussion? hitler. That's something I think about a lot witches in the room with Putin and there's also a lot of historical descriptions of.

What it's like to be in the room with hitler in the nineteen thirties there there is a lot of charisma. the same way, a fine putin to be very charismatic in his own way. The humor, the wit really is the there's, there's the simplicity of the way he thinks That really is taken at face. Value looks like a very intelligent, honest man, thinking practically about how to. the better russia constantly almost they come like an executive like he loves. He looks at me man who loves his job in a that trunk, for example, doesn't right, meaning like him loves laws and rules and how to know adversarial press. So that's gonna help. We ask that he's popular

this people, that's also to help enormously. I'm talking about strictly the man directly the words coming out of his I all the videos areas a watch based on that, not the press, not the reporting. You can just see that here's, a man whose able to display a charisma- that's not like I can see Why I love your rogan is like tell the guy is genuine and is a good person I think you could tell immediately that, like once you meet Joe, that he's going to be offline as a good person, you could tell there's x signals that we send that are like difficult to kind of describe in the same way you can tell Putin is like he genuinely loves his job and wants to build a better russia. There's the argument that he's action, evil man behind that charisma or is able

to you, know assassinate people of you- know limit free press all those kinds of things like that's hot. What do we do with that? So, where do human beings? psych journalists, or what do other leaders when they're in the room with Putin do with. What notions in deciding how to act in this world inside our policy to enact, although causes things just like with hitler when a channel in the roman hitler, how does he decide how to act? Will let's go back like my wheel, wheelhouse, which is north korea rights? when your entire world is based on being against tromp and everything trumped does, is buffoonery or a kind of productive, Inclusion of euro reporting is gonna, be pretty much given. I was very hopeful that there would be

composite about outlooks or outcomes rather of trumps. Meeting with the conjunction it looks, There was a space for things to go a bit better. I talked about a lot of time and. A trap was under no illusions about, who he was dealing with people send that out. He was kind of naive. He had one of the fiji's that instead, the union, you know lifting up his crutch. The first thing sit down and talk decision thing about it. Logger right after you came in our great it was north korea. Brok bomber, said that when he sat down trump in the white house to transfer power, he said north korea is the biggest issue. So I think a good leader whether or not you consider trump, a leader has to be aware of a right I'm gonna have to

relationships of some kind, even if it's adversarial with some really evil, evil horrible people which kim jong un he is well, but I only there's anybody that has a perspective that norka north korean congestion on are ill, are not evil right correct, but with In nineteen thirty germany, isn't it but more nuanced, and you have because hitler isn't anything and he just to blow hard and he's in anti semite sure, but he's what about like before the war breaks out like what about the basic actionable. anti semitism when you're like just attacking hurting we started kristallnacht we're talkin overnight along knives crystal neither the broken glass. We I mean the long night when he assassinated bunch of his people, though something different.

Ass so like when you're actually attacking european citizenry, that universally condemned kristallnacht, and that was very shocking. I is its level of barbarism that the west, because I think I think we still want to believe. Understandably, there If things aren't as bad as they seem, we would rather. This is why I you know I the north korea book I did dear reader is used in a humorous framework, because if you have to look it's like looking to the sun, if you stare at it straight on it's very hard to do so, you have to kind of look at it. Obliquely, and then a kind of realising the enormity of the depravity and again programmes in russia. had been a thing for a very long time, and there is a deer. It's between. Ok, you know we're gonna, say these villages and pursue people. Then we're going

systematically exterminate them that that's dead. There's there still levels of evil and depravity So you did write the about dear reader, yeah, not kim jong IL yeah dear reader, the on authorized autobiography of Kim jong IL so Oh that's! The previous leader of north korea, correct current one is the on jungle and no no activity on the naming. We'll know this is intentional cause it's a throwback to that. Add? So there has been only three leaders and north korea, so we ve talked about the history of hitler and Stalin unlikely I think it's important to understand that, the history of those kinds of humans? There's the hit, North korea is not well written about understood, which is why you book is exceptionally powerful, unimportant so maybe in a big broad waking use who was who is kim Jong IL.

as a man as a leader has historical figure that we should understand, and why should we understand them? So I wrote dear or by going to north korea and getting all their propaganda which has translated to several languages, because the conceit as everyone in earth is interested in them and wants to narrow their ideology. died in twenty love. Anybody lavender and you wrote the book and twelve to, but I went there. Twenty twelve, I wrote a book came out. Twenty fourteen so Kim jong. Il is, though, not intellect north korea's version of forest gump. In that when they write their history, whenever something appeared happens, he's there and by telling his life stories in the first person he's telling the history of north korea. So I wanted to write the kind of book where in one book and it's the kind of reading for doing a beach or the bathroom you're gonna get

entire history? No everything you need to know about north korean one accessible outlet, and it's it's. The people don't appreciate about north korea, the several things how about it is. And this didn't happen overnight. This was very systemic that what this family did to that country where piece by piece they did everything in their power to her, we see it from the rest, the world ramp up the oppression, keep any information from coming in and near their very creative and innovative in? their style of manipulation and control. So there is a farcical element. Let me give you an example: the people west gonna get around their talk about all the talk. Owen Kim Jong IL played god for the first time we get seventy holes in one There is one story about Kim jong IL shrinking time.

And this is a story how he sounds supernatural, but it's not so Kim jong IL is at a conference, the dear leader and someone is giving a talk and while that person's give gimme a talk, Kim Jong IL is taking notes and working on who his work, and he has an aide who keeps interrupting him with questions and bigger, keep stopping and kim Jong IL says why stopping goes. I see you're doing things and no no, he can. I can do these things at once. Several shocked and they said this is why Kim jong IL looks at time, not like a plain but like a cube, and he can shrink time and my friend goes: do they mean? de tasking and yes, Kim jong. Il is the only person north korea whose capable of multitasking so in order to elevate him, they basically make everyone else in north korea completely. You know, incompetent, and that has a purpose.

because should the leader go away, this country's gonna collapse overnight. So this, but with a laugh in there asked about all these newspapers- show him. You know at the factory and he's at the fish hatchery at the paper plant. They say the difference is north korea. is that the leader goes among the people and does what he called feel guidance, so he will go. That farm and be like this. We need to do at he'll go here. He already so smart he's good at everything and thanks to him, for sharing his wisdom with us and he's not removed from the people like every other country. Why does that seem to go wrong with humans. Do you think that this kind of the structure, where there's this one figure? this authoritarian is the totalitarian structure, where is one figure, that's a source of comfort and knowledge, kim jong IL is not good. At farming can jump It was not good at the machinery, it's all a complete lie or the thing

Your point out, we things that are completely obvious. So here's another example they use in north korea. They have something called the tower that yoshi idea, which is an obelisk which looks like the washington monument but is completely different, because it's got this black plastic torch at the top and they talk about in their propaganda, how all the architects got together and they said. Oh, we should make this the second tallest stone obelisk in the world and Kim Jong IL says: no, let's make it the tallest they're like. Oh, we never thought of this before and the way it's presented as it and like he's the first person. Think of this, like these architects, are having a brainstorming session

it's hard to judge the idea. They're like alright. We gotta do something innovative to put north korea on the map. What can we do? How about second biggest he's? Gonna go for this and then he's like make? Oh, we never thought of this. It's it's! It's it's so because I presented at face value. People sometimes say the books are satire. It's not a satire. I downplayed all this if it's a farce using that example, north korea is very big and I think russia is to some extent to an amusement parks, fun fairs. They call them the british style, because this is the chance for the people to get together, and there was this amusement park. It's almost like south park cartman, where there's all these rides and kim Jong IL's, like I'm not going to let any elderly or children take. These rides until I put myself in danger and ride them myself. they go, but dear leader, its drizzling, and it goes no. I have to make sure these rights are gonna, be safe for everyone even

during the like rain to go. What can we go on these rights with you no, no, I didn't the courageous one and he's riding all the rides and they're standing there crying at his courage here. But that's what's and you ask all the thing and when power, it's like listen, I'm quite confident that those funfair engineers are in a position to ride modest mouse reverts called by themselves and be like yo this is good for the kid, although there is still some- does musin parts, not our pretty rusty and dangerous- that that kind of propaganda. I guess rum, playing a demos advocate is like it is comforting as useful, but it does seem that that naturally leads to an abuse of power How can it be used correctly? No one person has the intellect or the mind to understand the entirety of an economy let alone every individual field of interest.

happily, you know an artificial intelligence system. Debts understands it. The entire back just completes the mask slept you could have an artificial intelligence, but, like the question is, can that meet mean like the human version. That is like, higher lot of exports right? Did you be an extremely good manager since everything's dynamic? It's not gonna, they're, not gonna. Have the data to kind of manage it well, it seems that there is a liquid george, washington, allegedly did, it seems, like most humans are not able to find themselves the euro area over to like yeah you're right, ogoni beach, power, but that's not if hours like fellows, being a human is that you that is an obvious bug of the system that. we would not be able to fire ourselves

to add to no one. We have many. It seems like that. Some You have to know always like there's something I often wonders ike am I right about this. With this We think that earlier, what are the safety valves to make sure that. Ok, if I m incorrect or more now just finite, platos cave kind of thing. What mechanisms are in place that man Mistake were limited information hissing and have the deleterious consequences I nor three does not really have that and, as a result, the polio in the nineties. So there is your you write about it straight, but there's a humour to it, because it's absurd the evil place as it was a bunch of people asked ass. I said that I'm talking to you and by should be passed, questions about here from the plants

this is why we have to be before we start recording specifically said: no, it wasn't. My contract yeah need to give. I gave you the pink skittles or whatever, but these things think I'm trying my going to explain to you how that works, because you got my mouse, that local staff com, which and sign up and pay, I think them should feel several thousand dollars very. Is it's not half the layman but the service is excellent. You get a coat with it. Why I went there posted a lot of really brilliant people. Their appeal should join the community if you found in darfur I call interesting or if you just want to go and say why he's wrong? It's a great place to have that for that, but I assure you we have a lot of really kind. People saw you

There is much to be what asked that we should talk about humor. So I pretend I put speaking that I'm a robot. I ask you to explain, humour to me: dear reader, I mean there's a huge does, there's you so wonderfully dance between syria's dark topics and then seriously dark humor, can you try to fewer terrain like keeping the article, maybe a book by your philosophy of humor. What do you think

with humor in all of this, a joke is like a baby. You can't dissect it and then put it back together and expect it to work. Trust me on this one, this fight, no matter how he carved that thing up. It's not gonna be working the next day and you need it to so those little sneakers with those hands. Oh, I don't know that humor is something that is a very explainable people. There's something called clapped her where this is like the worst kind of humor, where people I applaud because they agree with what you're saying I suppose to laughter. That's still, that's that's the kind of poetry reading here that the drag queens do that too, and I think, because of the nails vista, you laugh it's a visceral reaction. Someone on twitter is insisting you know, that's not funny, you're, not in a position to make that claim, and let's the scott, let's go back to north korea. I had a referee gee? I knew and he went to high school here and he was talking his buddies and they said, Adam.

Hey remember more kids, we had put him on and he goes oh yeah that, instead of talking about, I watched my dad starve to death, which is the truth. Now who are you? Who are any of us to tell him not to make that look. I don't know what it's like watching. Anyone, including my dad, started to death my debts, fatty so he's not going hungry anytime soon. So it's very bizarre to me when people feel comfortable precluding others from making jokes especially- and I think this is a very jewish thing, like this kind of gallows humor, especially when it's some laughing about a personal. The loss or experience that they've had humor is a great way to mitigate the pain and suffering, but it's also I think this is why it's a jewish thing. Is this a black thing when you are marginalize community or poorer? It's free telling?

lorries. Telling jokes were songs. You don't have to have money, but you can have joy and happiness, and I think that's why you find it so much more in kind of lower status communities than you find it like wasps, who are notoriously humorless, which is strange, because people pay a lot of money for the jokes. You do so it's narrow the free yeah well nope. They don't have to pay me. I it's it's rather appreciated, but not expected. I found my voice cracking Every time I try to make a joke, I have fail ever miserably at this. Has some people you're still in beta alpha? it was like being a lady. If you have tell people, you are your head moment of aversion oh okay, do you, or does your robot gobbledygook, I'm not going there? Okay, if we talking about in my own had myself the moon had. Ok, it's became north korea, some people,

say that you know I've read that committee is about. Timing of first idea agree the second of all existing You know very well. What are you saying? Yes, I added I am is funny cap is in its activities. judy puss timing is another. Does not the full reference? Was it the interrupting? Cannot joke I'm not going to do it better. That's I timing thing. It's, moreover, repetition and then the twisted thing not remove them. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah interrupting cow. If they get the benefits the banana one anyway, I'm not I'm not going there yet My lord but where civil wonder these stand, sleeping wardrobe, so british, but yet you're very. I want to say in a closet, because that is connotations. Let's with sport,

come out of the closet per second talk. You relax I was saying I love you Alex. I would say I love you lex you're talking to me as this is a screen sewing. You see you think about me when you open the man, I watch you when you're sleeping, I guess wrangle, son lady, active on twitter, yeah and somebody else a year are overly expensive membership site. What my drift How do you find humor different, In writing on twitter versus spoken yourself. It found its request, humours about timing. How do you capture I mean the brilliance of whatever

his underlying humour in a context of twitter, like, in other words, say a desire. How do you, beef funny and yet thoughtful on twitter? So with twitter? You have me the first the punchline, so Enron Paul had a stroke. I was immediately being like he still. The most are take a libertarian he's doing a great job by them sure. Right now all the libertarian got ass mad at people like too soon erlich. When someone dies you making the jokes about them, it's like when You want to make the jokes: let someone just died a week later. It doesn't make any sense. Now you buy soon as perfect timing, or you could say it's not appropriate ever but too soon does not make sense in this context. So that is something that I enjoy doing. It's also fun ruffling people's feathers of something I enjoy doing. I thought

spoken verses. Writing is very different, because when you are having good banter with some one for me as the ADI, since knowing that it is on the spot. really adds an element of humor. Could then it's like, while this is fun, it's like a ping pong match or something whereas in writing it's your losing the town you're losing the relationship of a dynamic conversation and a lot of times. The joke is just gimme, be different type of joke, where it's funny, but twitter there's a sense, especially your twitter, that your you just thought of that, and you just wrote it yes like there's his, as does the feeling like it's literally talking as opposed to what I imagine is there. Some editing doesn't look like it.

are you editors should be fired into positioning effect. Actually, if I want to say something, I dunno about the about the something as bother me about the presidential election supply that like water, What is the actual central idea and I'm trying to convey to myself like a sales? Having hypothetical conversation myself like no matter who fit my wife. What am I fell back on course of role. This way proverb malice, twenty sheet There were a dot com. Ok, that's she's, the one with the website underwear, attack on sheath underwear, doc, come promo code, mouse twenty, and I forgot wiser and were really nice because

the dual pouch technology to keep your man part separate. They ve also got woman stuff, but I don't know how it works. It s the thing worth going somewhere and the materials early refreshing. A myth is really again and makes your ass, the good that's promo code, mouse, twenty and it's made by its made by a former that cause. He was in iraq, so that it's? Why I like promoting it there, but what I'm writing the the the tweet I like to it forces me to think deeply about the core of the message. Okay, but what I found relinquishing effect like an already do much editing and the tree like out just like think and then I'll write it and when I posted like submit like I immediately see the two very differently than it was in my mind. Ha I often delete I got delete. I dunno some percentage of tweets about like two five seconds after wow. I dunno. If something what you once you send it

it's why their gmail son features of undue send feels really. Nice is like it changes the way. I see the thing, though, at variance with its but I really love it that you can delete it because, when I say stuff out in the wild like to other humans, like others, you've spoken spoken, word is like he can't delete what you just said, and I often regret the things I say like in in on the spot, like I shouldn't have said that really yeah. I don't have that. Well again, whoever your editor is. What is it the Edith Piaf?

generic generic ham, the while your friend is as bad as during which I don't have any tweets. I regret because if I said it sweet that I regretted I would make amends, I would make it a point if I was a needlessly offensive somebody or hurtful. or accidentally, I would make sure to fix it and and go out of my way to make sure that person feels vindicate invalidated by accepting my apology that has never happened, had to happen, thankfully, I'm also someone who is not big on taking the bait of us in some recently. Some people have come after me, pretty hard, and my perspective is that it's not really about me. It is either I represent something to them.

I'm just a jackass with a twitter. So, if you're getting this riled up over me, it's not really about me may be a delusional. That's high! Look at it! So if they are trying to provoke me into this, a heated exchange. I will never do it because that's not I'm not interested in it and it's! I don't think, there's gonna be any it's like jet jenner, rankin you, you can't when it's just gonna be like trying to win a hurricane. This is no hero here. While let me ask about this goes some way. faster on your only expensive membership site that, like that saying that they're an academic they want, because I'm an accurate quote. Unquote, I'm not an academic, but I do still have an affiliation with mit a with the word. Academics. Just dirty has situs, which is a problem that needs to change, just like the word nerd as dirty now ACA Make needs is going to be the next front to open and there can be very vilified were coming for them, and it's gonna be very, very ugly, and I cannot wait.

There needs to be a place and a different term for people who love research and knowledge and, like you, have no you're right, you're right so like there yet if to clarify what you mean by academic and re, now did word academic means of errors in the intellectual public discourse? It means the enemy and there's a lot of people that perhaps deserve that targeted. Vilification, but like a lot that dont they're just curious people that are right, building, building robust so one day strange voice, cried very dynamic, a joke. You don't get it. Can do is just that it gets focus its is embedded in some way. I can't delete that job, ok to stay with a jerk robots building robots, will one day kill us, the god willing humans are the joke? That's why I'm cracking my voice cracking

well we're even was even fucking thing. Academics. but why I local someone had question there and academic great their academic, their say like are you worry that you know, in academia associating yourself The search bar somebody who has can be misconstrued to have Radical ideas, like the two examples, gave is Michael mouse and your rogan is you have any radical. I wouldn't considering radical at all. Well, look will get we'll talk about it. A geo is that I think a bad example is why quite centrist while he could have, for example, like what has the job and attacked on it, for example on the top. godlike transgender, like and at its spring athletes and sports there's what else He has been pro bernie sanders and that's hard around

fro, tromp oil. I give you a job, pass, yet not die trump, not anti trauma. Oh what else just but need none of these are radical meat, meat stuffed being pro me, vs anti vegan yeah, have you know all those kinds of things, but that you could be misconstrued and and saying there is, I think, a highlight a my mama. She wrote to me about this, which is under way does she have a cage jotted down at once important, for that is that your mom wrote ceo joshua. That's that's a sign. My voice cracks a silent one when Michael mouse makes it funny jokes when you jot something down on dvd at Nizza, if he writes it and then the next time he crosses it out. Just put yet it's like a Joe Biden, the debates forget did also describe my pants

so much like there's a I mean he's a comedian you have, community inside your enemy york? You ve told you the rest. The oversight humorist is so you can misconstrue like Joe is based somehow a radical thinker and say what can be done with you in his question was how Are you worried about associate myself with force like that Am I or you me me fear version, and is that something? Do you see yourself as somebody who's dangerous today? shouldn't be talking to and in the same way, do you do you ever think about guests pike, ass or people. You talk to publicly associate itself with publicly. and think that there is somebody that crosses that line. Yet you shouldn't, I interviewed,

in the new ride. I interviewed like up to full blown nazis. The last chapters were chris Cantwell, but that was in the context of that book. Right, so there's lots of people. People want me to have on my show, and they I look at is like you have a table and tablecloth right. Then, let's suppose the table is a foot three feet wide. The tablecloth is two feet wide. So if I move the tablecloth to the right, I'm going to loose people on the left, I can only cover so much space and the further you go on the fringe in one direction: the more mainstream you're going to lose and the other direction. So I'm very much making a conscious choice not to talk to being pupil. Co. Will sam cowardly and that's absolutely true of being fearful here. I would prefer not talk to some of those who would alienate some of the more mainstream people but and here's. The perfect example of why, on my birthday last year, I woke up seven o'clock in the

indigo p, and I check twitter or whatever and JEB Bush had fought, followed me job and I did seven, a m you're, not really awake, you're like we what and then I thought, maybe a fake, a competence in the verified tat. While you can have this cause, you're not verified on twitter as a shame, so p hu a matter on twitter to earth does not respect robots. They dead bots. lucky avenant zero one: zero, zero, zero, zero, zero! Those are my problem. Yeah, so I it was jab jab, governor bush and I corresponded with him, and I asked him on the show and he decided not to for various reasons. Very politely like just politics is so bad right now I want to talk about it in the respect that for him, if I am in a spit, if I'm creating my show where he

going to get heat for who I got cancelled? All you kept you on the show he has his other guests. I don't want to lose that opportunity because, as we're talking about earlier mean alex shows and tim pool, I think a lot of people would be very excited. he must sit down job bush and I told him in writing- and I met this. I wouldn't be clowning him. I wouldn't be disrespectful. It would be a lot of fun. I there's a goofball side to him. The comes out sometimes- and I will do my best to bring that out and talk about what it's like being a blue blood to be born into his grandfather. Prescott scope bush was a senator from connecticut. He marrying a woman. Didn't speak english. How does that work when your fam was royalty? And things like that? So I had a lot of fun questions for him and that's gonna. You gonna have to choose one of the. while you do a good job of that, like Ben shapiro. Does a good job of that too, which is you can have multiple? You can have a trolley side, humor aside, where you tear down the power structures and so on, but you can also have a serious side and it's a safe space

for people from all walks of life to walk in and yes, not you're, not adversarial, never at them. I think the were guest seriously you're gonna, be on my show, I'm not going to have Them have negative consequences as a result of being a my show. That said, I mean, maybe my case I'll be honest and I say that I find out jones outside the commission I see stuff. For some reason. Maybe you can explain. Maybe you can psychoanalyze me, but I find him hilarious yet. Listen to he's a performer he's very informative, but there's a lot of people that don't see the humor of it, and they see the serious consequences of spreading conspiracy theories are different kinds and you mean yeah. They see the danger of it.

and I personally am often tempted to to talk to Alex in a pocket format, but I think I'm trying to convince myself then never well. For me, I feel unsafe talk now because I can't truly be myself, which is like that you're gonna, be on naive and honest answer and actually I generally, when I talk to humans, I want to see the best in them and I think that's like I often think about If I talk to hitler in nineteen thirty five, in thirty, eight analyse the names to give him what that's how you get the energy come on. Let's who who we getting. How do you have to give way want a europe of popular my brother so happy, malaysia, which is one too many

I wanted to know each other the brother you to pick on me pay back. Suddenly he heard life you should think of it more stolen. I guess interrupt you because hitler, your jewels So you're ready, gonna have very adversarial. Thought could be normal keys that can perceive you as it is a human in a sense right, right, so, it's all in your ear, it'll be much easier, Kim jung one or something like that like a year think, but how oga this is. A good question is, is in that, in that spirit, once you judge something, if you hitler, yeah, alright, we'll cross it out in a sec, in the fruit. I think this is a really good example of a difficult figure. That's controversial that people bring up to me a lot and you interview twice, which is courtesy. Arvin let me just moloch matches more a good aim at a small book which is sydenham that you guys, buyer is is book key tell me about who he is sure

Why is he interesting one of his ideas interesting? My briefly invented the cost of the rebel, so kurdish, your immensely smell like had a block, called unqualified reservations. You can still find it online very verbose. He writes at length very, very bright. His perspective is very heretical, so lothar things that we take for granted in our liberal democracy here. It is not only incorrect, which is downright absurd and does not. He does not take what many people view as the basis of american public discourse as the basis for his thought Oh, when you're, starting with someone who is basically repudiating the kind of the western world view, were not the western world. You, like the american malea, a lot of

If you are going to, of course, regard him as dangerous or someone who is verboten and he's a very bright person. Why is he such a toxic food? Because if you are blue pills, if you are the guardians of what is acceptable discourse, then you have to make sure your faults are secured and that any figure side of this exceptional discourse has to be marginalized and regarded as the radioactive as possible. You dont want to lead in these kind of this. Did the ideas they'll be destructive to your hegemony, whistle, let's dig into it solely key. I've read: a few things by him, but then I hear that in a bar, a bunch of places him being called a racist or white, supremacist, neo, fascist so on I go to Wikipedia yeah

the view on race, section three m, a red it yarns opinions have been described as racist. with his writings, interpreted as support of slavery, including the belief that whites have higher, accuse them, blacks for genetic reasons, yarn himself maintains that he's not a erases, because while he doubts that quote, all races are equally smart. The notion quote the people who score higher and q test in some sense superior human beings is quote creepy. He also disputes being an outspoken advocate for slavery. though he has argued that some racism more suited for slavery than others quote. It should be obvious that, although not away surprise wide nationalist, I am not exactly allergic to the stuff. Yarn wrote in a post that linked approvingly, I know these people Steve sailer, the salary of his from jerry jailer and other ratio lists yeah. So, okay, so like what more

Why my questions is? We cannot be alone stay one sentence The same way that you have you, and the guy earlier, who is defending some aspects of communism, and that is in some contexts acceptable when you think about it like this should be radioactive right. The fact that he is engaging with these ideas in any thing other than this has to be reputed at all costs is renders have, to a large extent, racist. That's really interesting, I say there are some type of sea can be nuanced enhanced and some not in communism is still a topic. The you can be new asked about difficulties, can be raising the spectre of slavery and iq. Differences based on race is a topic that I guess is radioactive to a degree where you can't even say anything. Even if it's like nuance store it not even like making a point, it's a

touching it as you make another point, and understandably because you can understand that I'm going to steal now the the their point cause. You can understand the point of the sicker just talking about hitler once this foot gets in the door, that some people are inherently slaves or some people are early better than others. He really quickly collapses. It's not would be their prospect, but that's what like, if I were to give chris, system of his. But let me say one more: getting racist is also used to describe Alex shouts, Alex, doesn't talk about writs racist is a short hand for a certain point, that of the population to let you know, do not bother investing this person any further near limits, a definite races, and sexism, as a thing is now used to shut down conversation quite absurd by by small personnel. by the taylor and steve sailor. Ajar taylor interviewed him from my book. He would be regarded in any sense as array What's the difference in racism, racial lists, racial lists, I mean this is splitting

airs, and now I'm gonna, be all radioactive jared. Taylor run cynical amran, and this is I mean his perspective- is that their inherent differences to the races and you cannot live side by side. Well, white and black should not be living us up the way for people without now. This is out of context. who have written a great book that includes some. These cuts have called the new right, which do not include, causes but told us about yeah. Well, it is more about the growth, the community around that the doubt that the outrage and all those kinds of the world right so and his point about I q, it's like if you had a population. The dutch rising to the tallest people, people on earth and if you said well, the dutch are the best. why on earth? Why cause they're the tallest? It's like you're, a crazy person. So if someone is scoring low and hit an individual on an I q test, that means there's somehow a lower quality

person will maybe one very specific aspect, but I mean if they're, good, human being I've got friends or like you all. My friends are, like you frankly, compared to be suddenly trumped there for that. How you choose for Well, I don't have any other choices, no one ever my level level you're this year, the smartest person since Abraham, lincoln that that I've ever seen at unlike him, I actually I'm honest. So Well, he is someone who very much swims in heretical ideas, Aristotle, here's another thing like if you bring up that Aristotle said that some people are born to be slaves, he was to speak about race. You just meant people's souls hl mencken, who is a great heretic and in the early twentieth century figure- the one his courts, that I say all the time which people have seen a lot in this past year that the average man does not want to be free. He merely wants to be safe. That, I think is be. I dont know what I am not familiar with what mobile saying that slavery, because his writings ponderous, but that certainly is

Nothing. I think that is undeniable, that nothing more people realise that large parts of the population that is actually disinterested in freedom and the more responsibilities it in As for I mean really just the word slavery. If you want to make some kind of point or even think about the topic outside the car, Text of this is a horrible thing that happened in the united states, history and other countries. Histories and auditors must declare this is me very point their slavery going on today in our people argue that the sex trafficking are the cause of your ministers at atrocities going on today that the top king about it in a way: that's not a meal, saying this is the most horrible thing that happened ever you know it's something I think about a law is like. If I want to say something controversial, I should do so with skill with care and only about things I care about. Well, here's where I disagree. I not

when I say things? I often say things that are controversial or, I will say, uncontroversial things in a controversial that way, because it's a useful mechanism to alienate people. You don't want around you, because if there are people who are going to be shocked by certain topics like we should have ended world war, two like even as a hypothesis, they just clutch their problems that, like all you want the holocaust to happen, I had discussed most things with you because you're not interested in having commerce issues sitting your motion response see. I think I see things this. I made this is a bit of a advocate, but what at least the modern discourse of like twitter and social media, and so on. I find that if you do that you're not actually removing the people there, not thoughtful and kind, and so on you're, actually attracting loud people

like a small number of them, they come over and start yelling at you start yelling their basically ruin the party by showing up and just screaming and saw the thoughtful people leave. Well, that's why you have to be a very heavy blocker. You have the black people on twitter because you have to call bigger audience and have them like a lot of times. People come at me, I don't care, then they'll start attacking members of my audience and then I'm like dang. I got to block them because they've won this one cause. I can't have that yeah, I dunno, I n n necessarily provoking people feels it's it's it's you. This is beta testing. You tried break the system and see what works you put as much pressure as possible. This is very much computer stuff that you should be able to appreciate the point being when you have a program you're trying to intensely sit there and do the best. Many mistakes seem a garage

right. Is that not common, nay? I got so you're saying that's that's a way to see communication, the world, as you say, something uncontrolled. Controversial way and that blocks people that are or it does it trigger them. Do they roll their eyes? Will you know what is going to be the emotional response or they just start yelling? The the problem is the the reason I can't think like this, or I can't because I'm not sure about the points and trying to make ways like I'm, not always a hundred percent sure that I'm right about things like some in being thoughtful, I'm afraid that I'll turn off.

we're within an eloquently, phrased or even incorrect statement. I will do damage that can't be undone in terms of a good having a good conversation about the topic. So I want to be very careful about, like I'm. Nothing afraid fear is not. What I'm talking about, I think fear is, is a like not saying something out of fears at the core of the media. The problems of the world today, but I'm just saying, say stuff with care from going to touch raises a topic it feels like. You really should be deeply. First, have a point to make like you, they care about a point. You want to make a second think deeply about say that point in a way that communicated the best and and touching I would say

and I've I've on your show, which is which is great, and we like to say thank you for having benches mobile. You are welcome that's the that's the name of the show Thank you for having a couple times. It's it's great to serve. Get him to in this loose way to talk about different. I just I don't think we talk about race at all, so no, no! No, but I'm just bringing it back to what you are asking, which is. If you read the wikipedia the perspective is going to be this guy talks about slavery, constantly where it's the disproportionate to his work, but even on your show, you can tell even not outside of the re stuff that he's not ultra careful about he's, not nuance. Yeah he's not afraid to say something. Just like I would say. Let me just criticise- and my fear is now use me carelessly say something commercial right like eight and I'm not saying he doesn't go. You know that makes them

different thing. Then somebody who on purposes says something controversial stuff, like milo, not annapolis, say it I forgot my milo. Whatever his name is annapolis yeah yeah, which is really nice to see that he's a genuine person, who's thoughtful he doesn't mean to, but he just charisse carelessly seems to say things that I feel like damage the rest of his body of work. I can only speak for him, but I would guess his point is once you're swimming in this kind of world view you're going to be, anathema already, so there's no pleasing these people so why bother trying. Yet I think this a deeply. That's it! That's a black people live while black held at all, because it's a cynical way these people. So like it's, it's saying that you're, it's a very kind, o

of thinking like I'll say whatever I want. Whoever comes along with me now, you just earlier said yourself that race racism has been weapon eyes as a way to shut our conversation. So I think his perspective would be. I am so outside the mainstream, in my world view that I know I'm going to be called racism racist. So there's no point in trying to be nuanced, because I'm already gonna get the scarlet letter yeah. I just disagree with that because, for example, I am one I am one person that he turned off ok by his carelessness, and I think I should be a good target. I should be cycling, that's fair and I'm just like he. He it's very convenient to think that there's ridiculous people out there, which they archer, who call everybody racist Sex is currently, and then you can please them. So I am not even try now, but there is like. Grey area of people should have. I don't listen to the outrage culture

Whatever the add on this wikipedia article means nothing to me. Like I'm not going to write a letter of, what I'm a more I'm just seeing this careless person and if he's going to be careless about like race like this, I feel like if I walk along with a long enough, I'm going to catch the carelessness, I'm going to lose like I'll, defend your perspective better than you can get. The south is good, I'm taking notes I talk to airlines dean after you guys talked about me on your shoulders was that we had a good conversation invited me on his show. That'd be an amazing conversation and we got on the phone and his concern fairly. He goes. I don't want you to come on my show for the purposes of clowning me and I would never do

that yeah, it's it would. Never you might not be aware of we are of. That is why he wants to feel me out. He's like you know when he hears troll a communal lot of different things, and I we had a very conversation. Very much was very clear that that's not where the conversation will go, but I think, When you are going to be someone's show, there is a responsibility that they are not going to have to pay a cost for having you as their guests. If your pc, if you are put off by how he wasn't that livestreams or two I did like. I understand where you're coming from, I think, he's very, very bright, but you, I have a very you- have a different audience than I do when you're going for something different than than I am not like. I am I in just the sense of you, wouldn't feel safe with him yeah. I wouldn't feel safe with them, but he's he's borderline for me. I think I I would like to actually talk to one day Alex Jones. Cross. The line for me what you could do legally with me tape the episode than ever really said no

it's one of those things will be on when there's. Finally, there they'll make history child too, bought you and I and how it all wrong, like the called, though we started, nobody killed themselves and that there's a at will release it then, because it'll be like unseen footage. This is how it started is it'll, be black and white wait in the basement somewhere in new york, yeah yeah like mother's day smith. This explains so much okay, so I spoke here. I'm brook about objective as him. and iron rand. he. He kind of art- he highlighted the team, capitalism and anarchism. as around the topic of violence and the that having government, be the sort of the

the negative way to say it is like having a monopoly on violence, but, basically being arbiter of or the the people that making sure that well doesn't get out of hand that we need twenty show that the government's great at that, what what woods? Okay with without this is same with a straight face. Making that argument good worker on all right. Well. Can you, with a straight face, argue for the idea that in anarchism violence would not get out of hand sure for one thing, if your worst argument against that, I one of my little quotes is what are presented as the strongest arguments against anarchism are inevitably description of the stress quote so the argument is under anarchism. You know, you'd have warlords heed of killing people and then you'd have you know whoever strongest gets to just take over neighbourhood. Will we have that now.

We saw that the police are perfectly comfortable starving the population and then when they try to protect themselves or punished, they were happy to stand down. You can't all you can only have that happen if you have a monopoly, if they're like, let's suppose you had a television stations right and CBS said, you know what we're not going to broadcast cool, you don't broadcast we're going to watch any of these other channels, so the problem with having monopolies. Everyone has to be dependent on this issue. it's amazing, what miracles in which objective is sar is they will argue that government is really really bad at everything it does and it touches. Therefore it has to be in charge of the most important stuff, but as not, therefore, but but there is

The thing that's fundamentally different than all the other things you're on Brooke also said that no government has air at this is on. Your show, has ever worked in the way he's proposing now objectivism. Iran's philosophy philosophy is based on objective reality. In what sheep positive is you look and study the facts of nature's that facts reality? I deduce things accordingly and she very much regard yourself as part the aristotelian tradition as opposed to the plot platonist tradition, where the idea proceeds reality and the idea is more real than what we see around us. So what he sang is all the data corner. Him contradicts his argument, but still he's going to make this imagine a government that has never existed and there is no evidence that it can exist. Let's talk about objective law to have access to the legal,

system, which is something we want even justice from selling disputes. When you have a government nobly, it's going to be more expensive, more difficult for poor people the cost of hiring a lawyer is more expensive than hiring a surgeon. You can't say with a straight face. This is the only way or the best way. Okay, so Oh and the other thing is. The argument for objective is that they have this duped by against ethnic ism. They have this stupid claim is like what, if you know you are a member of one security, company and as a member of another, and we have a dispute and one shows up the door. What happens now as if this is some insuperable argument, while we have that on earth, every country is in a state of anarchism regarding every other country would have a world government. So what happens? If a

in alien kills an american in mexico. I have no idea. I bet you do have an idea. What I'm sure of is that system has been worked out ahead of time between the three countries and it's been worked out in such a way that you and I don't have to reinvent the wheel same thing with cell phone companies. If I'm on sprint your metro, p c s, and I call you who pays the sprint pay you do, they split the difference. First of all, there's no objective way that one has to work, but the thing is companies who have a car or auto accidents. They are arbitrage. All the time like if I run into you, they work it out and it never reaches our our desk. So the only thing that cops are good at is keeping peeped at any government. Appley is forcing people to be there.

Customers by keeping them unsafe. Okay, there's a few things, I'd like to say there that just explore some of these ideas, so one is in terms of canadian or mexican. So on that he does something has been worked out. Perhaps not perhaps don't don't say. Perhaps you know for sure that if something there's a point I'm trying to make so, let's say for sure it's been worked out. There is a. There was a point in history where it wasn't worked out like to to to work to come to a place of stability. There has to first be some instability, so you, when you first like for every kind of situation they're like dispute over space like who gets to own mars. That kind of thing sure is a first for it, and then then these different competing institutions will have to great out others. The concerned with anarchism, I think, or with any kind of interaction. What you said, the brilliantly that

america's relative to the there's. No one world government right outshines enters the chat, but the there's an instant, because, though the fears that there's going to be needed to believe that that doesn't converse toward sums. What place that is. Not the fear that is the goal under enhanced philosophy. Markets have something what they always talk about is being creatively destructive, which means you look at something. That's been happy for a very long time. Every generation every innovator starts

chipping away at it. He finds better ways, marginal improvement or marginal and or doesn't work and he goes broke. When government tries to implement improvement, we all have to suffer the consequences when an innovator does it's a huge asymmetry if it hurts, it only hurts him if he succeeds, he becomes rich and we all profit as a consequence with the fear of anarchism. I think this that he will be non creative destruction, it'll be just destruction right. This is not like the instability. Let's give you that there's. No stability is one of these words that sounds objective but has no real meaning. What field has stability if you had? Let's suppose you want stability relationships, let's talk about medicine. Stability means we're not going invent new diseases or new treatments. Right, if you mean stability in terms of a baseline of

security. We have that already very few relationships, turn violent under an anarchist system. Look at it right now, where, if you look at a bar full of drunken young males full of testosterone, if you look at a hotel where everyone is not native to the area, those are both far safer than the places that the government has taken upon itself to protect you, the parks, the alleyways, the streets, the subways we have right now, a comparison of which is better at keeping people safe, it's very obvious that when something is private and under someone's control- and there would be layers of there be more police, but they wouldn't be a government nobly, the store would have someone the street would have some And you'd have your own personal security thou attached to your phone, having security as a function of geography, as opposed to a function of you as an individual,

is a landline technology post cellphone world. So you think it's possible to have psychological speaking as an individual among the masses to have a sense of secure, pretty even there's, even others, not a centralized thing at the bottom of the whole thing. Psych there's not a set of laws there. Enforced based on geography like we have nations. Now you can have a set of laws that are enforced in some kind of emergent agreed upon way so like. Basically, I want to go to a hotel and trust that I'll be able get a room and nobody's gonna break down the door handle but you have to call my viler. Let's let things differently If you were worried about a hotel having bedbugs, that's not a sunday governments involved in what mechanism, and that's not unrealistic concern- are their mechanisms right now that you can undertake to make sure that sought to

yes, so it would be the same thing with I want to make sure I go to hotel that has security it'll be exactly the same thing and here's another example: kosher food people who keep kosher jews who keep kosher their food, has to be repaired, a certain way at estimate higher rabbinical standards. Right. If you look at food, it will have that certification hey this and there's even competition. There there's the K and there's the stricter you let her people don't notice it because they are looking for it. You would have companies certifying different locales for their level of security, and it would take an hour to have an app that would just like when you have toll roads right. That would tell you you're approaching an unsafe area, you're not going to be covered by us or, and you could have it color coded very easily. We could do this today But the thing is you exactly correct, but there's an assumption of your ready in carrying me different ones.

But you're, ready in a place where the forces of the market or whatever can operate right there. where is like? Initially you mine have enough the ability, who were you can choose one place over the other verse based on the security that they provide? we already have different types of security here, because we have federal government, we have state governments and we have local governess was so an these often contradict each other. So the idea of the impossibility of having different security, the car companies in having the unstable impossible. We already have a very rough example of it happening in real life, but all of its started a suit. This, like the idea of a special year on, is It all started with government monopoly violence, saying like now, kids, don't let violence get out of hand, so

Not at all civil war were half the country was slaughtered. That's the display, The government having a monopoly on the violence rate. It sake is I've had a blue, it had such a monopoly in the wilds north that it could draft people to fight others I didn't even cover. There's a south was a it's a it's a it's the government's splitting okay, so cause this is giant iceberg like splitting. Is it the the argument is that you would have something like a civil war, much more often under anarchism. But that's that's that's first off if you had a civil war, but much more often, if we don't have that with car companies right, there's no car company. That says I refuse to pay you or whatever it s, not violence out in trouble like I'm playing. It is vital that we finish. It is violence, because if I'm a company and I'm saying that my cars can

run over yours with no consequences? This is a rough analogue. That's. Why has that not happened now in in terms of having security system? If I am free, just like switching cell phone to go from one provider to another and this one company as part of its payment, doesn't want fifty dollars a month and draws a month one My son, I'm not going to be a member of the security company unless, in that we deal with something like a pearl harbor or for innovation, it's like all hands on deck. Let's go by evidence to how many places do have ever I saw that there you can have it. A large scale was acid in a large scale because it feels like once you don't know the person. What about Ebay? Ebay is an example. and I guess malpractice, I'm selling something to someone whose name I don't even know in a country that is nowhere approximate to me, an ebay acts as the arbiter.

Sometimes I don't get the money after I get screwed over, but that's far less than the taxation that I have to give to the federal government. That's a great point, but it's in the space of finance. If I could if on Ebay, you could also commit violence. Theft is violence, Now, if you, if you give me ten grand for a car- and I dont, deliver anything- you ve stolen ten grand from yes, but is there something uniquely problem, a headache, being stabbed were shot. The recent years stabbed her shot is because the government, despite its contract, is refusing to allow second amendment rights to be implemented among the citizenry and the people who are making that the case are the cops. They are the ones who are the traders the constitution and should be reviewed. as such, whereas private companies are far more amenable to market pressures than the state is if it is

argument, but to let? Let's actually just briefly mention the scale thing why? Why don't you think we should talk about scale like because, if you had anarchism, just in vermont or just in brooklyn, we'll find the people make the argument. You need anarchism ross, China's good invade, but that's like saying what like does primula duties, countries don't exist, as san Salvador not exist, some of them are violent. Some of them are not. But the point is there not all at a moment's notice about to be invaded. Kuwait, an example. quit was invaded by Iraq and very quickly all the big countries who are interested in having your stability, safe space got involved and an kicked him out of kuwait. If you had this, company that was waging war in the population. It seems quite likely that the other organization would get together. Put a stop to this, because they're not in a position to provide the services security to their customers. Okay, the oh! This is brilliant.

But didn't you just say that we are actually in a state of anarchism relative to other countries? Yes, so isn't this? What emerges this is as water Eric or aren't we actually living in a state of anarchism, where we all have agreed even agree to anything, select the basic criticism you have like your born on a land, geographical land, jug, airy geographical area, and you are forced to have signed a bunch of stuff just by being born regardless So really you could, if you could just much easier choose right which space of aid yes, you are associated with right. There would be actual state america's yes. And you could have a military that you sign up was sure and you certainly not putting people in prison to get raped, because this selling drugs nea.

And you certainly not allowing everyone else on the street was to be there. Can we say some this bar I ran. I can look about nice things about her all day. I honour copy the found had yet what do use. I ran the best idea, one that you find impact pack for insightful useful for us, the modern society. These think about that your life has meaning and productive work, is your highest value and that you shouldn't apologize. There's something I despise you shouldn't apologize for saying I want to be happy and I'm going to work towards that. And that is as a few others that you own nobody else, some random stranger, a second of your time, see this a lot on twitter and social media people like demanding a debate man you act, a certain way and engage with them. You don't owe them anything, and so I think those

our summer, her best ideas. She teaches you how they cried ran, does not have all the answers, but she s all the questions. You think I would even by the whole selfishness thing emmy defeat you are you trigger. By the word selfish It's really unfortunate what she does, because you were just talking about earlier, but mold bugbear carelessly she is, is indefensible in my opinion, so she talks about the virtue of selfishness and she claims that when people talk about selfishness, think they mean concerned primarily with the self they don't. When people talk about selfishness, they mean in a sociopathic way. concern exclusively with oneself right. They mean like. Oh, if someone is dying on the street. How can I you know even waste, the second saving them, because I'm selfish, so she set up this complete caricature of the term what she when she's attacking selflessness in her best sense is when there are people who have no sense of self?

They have no values of their own, they have no because of their own everything. In their mind. It's gotten second hand from the culture at large and there's nothing. You know, icarus special from their perspective worth fighting for so when she attacks and which she advocates for the self. She basically means self development, self improvement and achievement. So I think that word choice is really an. It fall and needlessly off putting near controversial, perhaps for the purpose of being controversial enough, but its use is not accurate. That's not what people mean by selfishness. Yeah, I would say, is one of those One of the reasons, probably her philosophy is not as much adopted thought about his eyes

his fire like. These are worth me, something you exactly. As you said there s, my criticism is small, but which could be incorrect. Criticism by the way is I'm not exactly sure. Can we talk about Some modern day chaos and politics. Please say us speaking: can your hatred for chaos stuck boss assertion? Oh yeah, I was the first one on this trip, yeah you're, while the soul or beat you to it but sure in contemporary times, and every time you're you're on this. Can you talk about what is the idea of secession? What are the odds that it might happen? What does it mean for the united states,

in some way for different stasis, a seed sure america's been one country with several culture since the beginning. There is absolutely no reason for someone one. This goes back the anarchist idea if you despise donald trump, which is your prerogative, if you think Joe Biden is a clown, which is your prerogative. There is absolutely no reason for. you to be governed by someone you disapprove of this is incoherent, nonsensical concepts. The only reason even take it as a hypothesis is that were trained to the contrary. Since kindergarten as the session I dunno? What along what lines but increasingly is becoming harder and harder for people to have conversations I think, social media. This is something people despite social media, for I think this something the social media done well, which I advocating for is its it's kind of run through ideas. an evolutionary lucian or process and drive them to the logical conclusion

very hard to be moderate line. Because this can we people, you know pushing through your ideas through several cycles, and then you can end up as some kind of more pure or it is you wanna dislike it extreme prospective having these different pockets. It's not really governing focus. people fundamentally have different world views. So I dont know what secession would look like. I think the number is really have an extra increasing an exponential rate I do not a number of supporters of borders? I think the claim that this it only be accomplished through violence is false. It's a lie just like any divorce doesn't have to involve beating your ex husband or ex wife so, and I am very much looking forward to this becoming a reality. Far quicker than I ever expected. Well do there's a value of competing world views being forced

to be in the same yes, sir ways in a context, so we can agree if group one thanks avian see are the fundamental aspects of the worldview and argue within that, and world group too thanks d enough and argues in there. So you're gonna have a lot of argument within those space, but at this fundamental differences in world view, there is no reason to be, especially when each views the other is completed, coherent and unreasonable. you think. There's a line of fundamentally different world views that, along which secession happen in the united states, a gazelle, something that emerges to use set of ideas that are like. How would you call that, like you can't,

You can come to an agreement over. I yeah. I think this already happening like with the masks, I think, there's two financial perspective and each one thinks the other is insane and all. so deadly and destructive, and I don't see how there's any discourse on this topic so on the left, I wouldn't say it's left vs right. I think it's people who are pro risk versus people who are risk averse, yeah, so risk averse and then there's like a a hope for the comfort of the sort of centralized science and giving them the truth, and then everybody must follow the true right of probably to behave, and then there is, on the other side, a distrust of any kind of centralized institutions of anybody who might use they control

to try to gain greater and greater power and masks a symbol of that, and even if mask are not a negation of the effective way of awe. of a stop in ways which is really, unfortunately, music. From our perspective, I happened to be innocent. paper, about masks like we would not seem to care about the data, though, is this: is this has become just a nice it an wish to then highlight the difference between the two, the two sides? Yes, that's I mean I it's. It sounds kind of on the face. how ridiculous that the secession would occur over my house. It wouldn't, but I'm still a sad example of summer, where there's a clean break, bs and an risk averse verses, you know someone who's risk seeking. These are just two fund. Only different perspectives do you want to have an nhs, or do you have a one of a market based healthcare system? The ai you can very valid arguments for both there's no real

and for everyone to be under one, but if you think, that's not something, that's it that you think that's irreconcilable. Thus the word that That's not in the space of ideas that you can have the same move together. They fight each other and ultimately make progress like that that Action is the more effective way to proceed forward. Guess what I do see a possible world knows the answer. Meaning. I know you say yes, because you kind of lean on the side of freedom and ever anarchism. Yes, like you make you want to make, make an argument in terms of divorce which is in europe. World view or your intuition. Is you want to make secession as frictionless as possible like horse? it along all light, not just like states or whatever. Just like apps, you want to choose, you want to be free, yeah and peaceful. Let me make

my authoritarian. Russian nuclear power station that argument, in terms of relationships lake, when it goes wrong in our relationships, but your language, ok, there's only one place for once thought the state ok, ok I'll get eleven now to be like mark as our previous discussion with you Don't let me only the hounds it? U knows you want to work through some of the troubles For your divorce, like you want to do the work in relation to the public, up and down within two hundred plus years. It's it's done, but in the listen, okay was not a one, they stand, but you know, look I'll! Try. this I don't see the middle ground he's either a complete calamity, buffoon or he's been the first great president. We ve had unlike many many years so youth,

that there's something different now than it was twenty years ago. Yes, Social media and access to information. And the division will only increase you think. Oh yes, so tromp was not an accident of history, so they are not. Tromp was the river, but he was the damn. Trump was the dam. They thought I used the river. So not analogy. Try being gone, makes things worse. Yes for their respective, because now things are really gonna hit the fan. So what are the odds of secession I dont know and by? spread hope is that its peaceful, but I want a number of people who are becoming very comfortable. The violence is made he very unsettled. While I see words as violence and your twitter, like her, a thousand million

Sometimes I curl up in the corner crying. Have that check your twitter feed so late it fits in a in all seriousness. You, you think, is possible. Did a nonviolence session. It took a czechoslovakia, look at Brexit brexit. Was this a session right right so you can have a civil war did not need to be thought that would have been a non violent secession an end What about slavery? You could have bought off all the slaves import them to the north. It still would have been cheaper unless loss of life in prague better for race relations that are known of his he took me to wonder, while I called the civil war could have been avoided, but that's how is well conversation so like night, they want to see he'd say look here's what we're gonna do we're going you seed, but you have to end of slate. You have ten slavery, they succeeded

slavery. Here's the thing there's like this: can some circles of conservatism have this myth that I wasn't a slavers about states' rights? Well, if you go back every state when they seceded released a press release- and they said explicitly we're doing this because of slavery, so that is an abomination that needs to be taken care of, but the way the other. Countries have ended slavery peacefully. One of the ways to do it is pay them by all, and we end up doing this after the war. I think the south people got reparations the save owners. It was just insane Bring north wanna go to canada. Whatever You agree and that's our peace treaty, because People who died weren't the slave owners. It was white trash, I knew it was that's who always and I hate it. That's the term. I can't think of a better one, but that's who always ends of fighting these wars. Often disproportionately is poor people and uneducated people, I don't I don't. I did not regard them as cannon fodder. I think it's horrible.

So. What would it look like? They ll be two founding documents, yet they had their dead, their constitution generally, history there. They had a constitution, but it was much more decentralized if secession doesn't happen. Yeah. You said that donald trump was the damn, not the river yeah, that's the salzburg. What women are some asian, its poetry? Ok, flirting with me in don't know what he and without when a flirt. We just got it's out a club and drag you. Data is the hammerheads we hammer and sickle, And you want to know about the signal that get car back up its that cop without pit yeah? What do you think? Twenty twenty four, looks like in terms of the candidates it's gonna be camel harris, as the democratic candidate

I am really looking forward to tag crews, verses, mike pence cause they're, both a very good debate that introduce you'd have their frazier themselves. But honestly, I don't, I mean things are going to get really ugly really soon. What about donald trump coming back he's not gonna. Do it so things in my opinion I think things it. Can we really really crazy in twenty twenty one and talk talk with a damp being guy, all right, when you once this year going up, oh yeah, it's gonna be complete, ask and we could we may him. Would you think I like prediction wise, and this is impractical. What do you think tromp twitter feed looks like, twenty one like before at the age of twenty one will look back, you see like what was the you know: obama, gay Exclamation poyser, we won the. He is going to be for the first time in history a holding, the republican party accountable to the base we

never had that happen before. I, though, I think he is going to be holding their feet to the fire or radicalizing them, and given that they have the senate, where is going to be fifty fifty? crops have a three seat majority in the house. This is not a governing com. for either it's going to be complete mayhem, causation. A single one of the key values. You think that he's he's gonna try to push you just can be very contrary and its he's gonna be Do you have a candle terms of budgeting, even though he never did that as president? I think in terms of kind of nominations. Here's the thing. This is first time since Nixon fifty. Here's and things went ass, politicize then we're an incoming present? doesn't have controlled the senate. The senate has the vote over cabinet positions. I do not see a possibility of them not trying to pick a fight on one or two of these nominations, and that's

an especial revenge for cavenaugh. This is getting very bloody very quickly and I think much Mcconnell there's a sin istick said to him he rebels in being the brakes on the car, and I think the base is just can be throwing. They're gonna want some bone yeah we be eliminated this one person, so that's gonna, get really really really quickly. You see it being quite davis like Division increasing not stabilizing worried decreasing be doing my part, you'll be do my part, but I'm trying to my part they try to beak like to me The division is shouting over people like you, I'm mosque, people who are actually buildings, unlike accomplishing things in this world, in terms like you, long study took the readville pill, see the I want to play, I'm talking about forget elon, space and tesla, and actually the good side of like some other things are going.

Was doing ass, like actually building things, making the world's information searchable all that kind of stuff. I call the stuff you know the making, the world a better place, there's much technologies. Increasing our quality of life alters the other kind of stuff I feel like they get like not much credit or in our public discourse. because of the division, there isn't a site like people, it's cool putting our ability to concentrate on what also about this world well. You know what would eliminate the division right. Secession yeah see. I don't at all. I it's hard for me to disagree. It's certainly disagree because, but at the same time, the session on a american

good heart, you want a little voice, breaks my heart cool, but do you want to live in a country, Ober yeah? What do you want to live in a country where your rogan is regarded as an example of some new spreading white supremacy? I dont while but see I feel that's not the country we live in. That's just start times. Did it the cathedral? Does it on a regular basis? What the cathedral is ok, The cathedral- I guess you didn't maybe define the cathedral- was it's like this centralizing. stations that have like a story that they're trying to sell. This is mailbox concept, but yeah. They basically are set the limits of permissible discourse and create a narrative for the population to follow, but to me the the minority of people you by now He's always controlling everything in any country. The vast enjoy the masses have no thought it, but These can be overthrown and assure the circulation elites yeah the way, the pro Clinton and that's what the were progress looks like is ridiculous. People take power, yes and then

They get annoying and new ridiculous people that are a little bit better overthrow the previous. Now I think of progress happens despite the people who are in power not because of it right and so wise secession, so Is it always about overthrowing the powerful? Is that how progress happens? No, I think progress happens despite the powerful, the powerful are going to do what's in their power. to maintain their power and they're gonna fight innovation, because the threat to their control, the rose, be the new york times of the day. There's always gonna be those with assure than other maritime country. This is to come. His one has Joe rogan, the other one is the new york times yeah. That's basically what's happening right now, it's just geographically distant map out very well, but culturally, yes, but that's just cultural stuff, like there's a layer of public disk, s. Ok, I mean like that's. What we're operating under now does actually progress be made that arose being built? are hospitals be run. All kinds of things I gotcha

the different innovations that seems like success, and is counter productive to that right has one can you'd, have all the rose in the other. We have other hospitals grapevine, that's not the point of trying to make it just like it feels like the division that were experiencing in the space of ideas could be constructive and productive for as for building better roads and better hospitals, as opposed to like using their division to separate the countries they're all going to have to solve the same problems. It feels like a sure, but they can solve them in different in compete. That way, the mcafee has absolutely yeah. Now we're we're seeing that right now, different countries have different mass mandates, and things like this and the the cup competition within the same structure with the same founding documents and same institutions is not effective. Think is as effective as separate aid is effective, but there is a certain point which I think we have long past were there

it's not a consensus, a governing consensus, ideologically or culturally. Let me ask you a fun question: okay, knock knock who's there, mars, god of war, the other one the planet yup so. There is a kind of captivating notion that we might have excited by the human beings Think for mars. Adam Is the? those things it feels like it. Why do we want to engage in space exploration, but I'm ok Would the mosque on this, which is its obvious. that eventually, if humans species is to survive, is going to have to

they in ways that includes the spit space like theirs A of things were not able to predict yet that if we push ourselves to the limits of space like new ideas will come they'll be vs a hundred years from now, and they were not even imagine, love and care. Eyes mars. That idea that seems ridiculous, exceptionally difficult, impossibly expensive. is something that is actually going to be seen as obvious in retrospect? Okay, though, she engage in okay, that's just contextual as things the fun idea, the idea, an experiment from a philosophical political sciences. What kind of government? How do you orchestrate a government when you go to mars, like what we don't get too many chances like this? But how do you build new systems not in place of old ones, but in a place with gnosis?

some previous have existed. I think organically. I hate that word, but that's the correct word and you'd have to figure out that I mean that's how america was built. You had that was a jamestown colony. They tried to communism here and a completely failed. Then they went to a more free market system with the second wave of colonists is my understanding, for mars. I mean it depend on the population with Population was the number of people. I dont know with these are all kind of that it calls that are really have any good insight in whatsoever and nodded a space I hate astronomy like I hate it. So a lot of people look up to the stars. We are filled with awe and wonder about the mystery of the universe, and you you look up to the stars and you feel what I'm not looking up. I'm looking at the earth, if you, if you look at what's I'd much rather given a choice between mars and the deep sea I'd, much rather

I spend a week at the deep sea and all the life forms that are down there cause. There are literal aliens. There is like things that are not literal but they're unimaginable to us. Ah, some of the things down there yeah it's true to me. It's an interesting thought experiment to see when you have ten people in you have one hundred people How do you have built of effective She really useful for company right bank haughty, birthright company riah. Does things it's more obvious despite everybody being really certain about everything this and the smaller world, Jimmy's, not obvious. Like how'd, you run successfully as a group of people, I greater ike. That's all I'm saying it. Also organic means you have to look at what the people are and tailor the organization to them as opposed to try to impose something. Will you also select people right Stock of open borders on mars, alright till tomorrow, as they say, we have one country, it's all open borders. Yet at your aid from from outer space right, some,

hey there aliens already there, so you have to negotiate that sure. We're we're alien, so we're aliens to someone they were illegal aliens. Do you think, there's alien civilizations out there? Yes, this of course, what? What do you think is their system of government anarchism because they're advanced? Do you honestly think there's intelligent life forms out of course, the math it's impossible, there isn't so woody made of all the all the stories of you four sightings on that kind of stuff, and do you think they visited earth? Yes, my grandfather was an air traffic control in the soviet union and he said they would often see these things that were not operating the way we new vehicles operate? So that's good enough for me, so many different government is in possession of some

like? What do you think government is doing with this kind of information? They do. You think somebody has any understanding of your foe, citing, or any kind of information about extraterrestrial life forms. they're not known to the public. Yes, that's indisputably true, I think the fact that so many of these sightings or from aerodynamic professionals like pilots and things- nature they are. People have seen it all who are reputable if they are on record saying I've seen things that don't make sense. Both the russians in the americas? Thought was the other one. That says something should not be a bigger problem should not be bigger news and a bigger part. if government is in fact hiding it. I guess but like what are they going to do with that information? Is it's a good question like if, for your fault, if an extraterrestrial spacecraft which most

I could be like a crappy space like you. It wouldn't be the actual aliens would be like some drone probe shall pay. I I am sorry if that light like what would you do that information, as somebody that's in charge of inner, like you see how badly W at your fumbled the discussion of masks masks? The mask is one of them But everything really in terms of communication the public honestly about what they know. What they dont know the trivial one right I'd do I don't know there. Certainly feel incompetent and tat being able to communicate effectively with the public about something much more difficult for the mess for mystery, like it leaves a thing.

a piece of material? That's out of this earth forget like organic material, an owner to me. It is so from a scientist respect. It would be beautiful, be inspiring to review this to the world, here's a mystery and make it completely public, share. It would try and share it with everybody. I think there is a domino effect where the concern would be. What else are you hiding from us at that point, if you said no, no, this is everything. People wouldn't, leave you and they would. You can't blame him for not believe in them. Yeah. and then a bit shows the aliens they we widow have images of the craft you're lying. speaking of aliens are fine. you mention elves yeah and psychedelic yeah. What do you think about psychedelic in terms of the kind of places they can take your mind?

are the kind of journey can take you on my word. What do you think? What is what do you think that, I get out due to the human mind and what does that say about the capacity of the human mind and just in general, like the mysteries of all this out there? I dont know that we understand what they do the way I heard it explained to me- is that Should the human mind is about recede information a blocking information right because we're so there's so much data coming at any moment that you basically have to train yourself to see and to hear only what you want to see and to hear and What psychedelic do? Is they tear that away and suddenly more aware of what's out there and also you can be noticing patterns that you had noticed before they have that right. Therefore on the show it and he can discuss this at some length. I mean rogan is pride. The person who popularize dm team were then it was obviously the person's pipelines the hunting with anything I don't know anyone

who had even researchers, who have anything close to a coherent explanation of why this drug? which is exists everywhere, would have this very specific, very extreme effect on so many people who are going to be experiencing such bizarre consequences as a result of it, and I think it's very interesting that this talking to the government, The cia start experimenting with Alice d. This they killed one of their own people, draw the suicide and it there. A lot of research into Terence mckenna talks with this into this field and in very quickly once again into the mainstream. They shut it down you know, it's not addictive, doesn't cause you go crazy or anything like that. There is a lot of propaganda against its use, which I think, thankfully, is now somewhat receding. I think cholera, just legalised mushrooms of like that, and I think it is very see what happens as a result of this

indeed the thing is, there does not seem to be first, certain psychedelic sex, Sir Simon, like mushrooms, there does not seem to be a lethal. Those which is fast ape like Matthew Johnson. Does the hopkins professors the imagine nothing. I do one of his studies its. really cool way to do what he calls. heroic dose album? Isabell. I want to do it. What do I have to do? Let's, let you know so he's he is a heroic dose holy crap yeah, but it's safe. What's a hero? How many grams are we talking or I dunno, but it's just

This is big he's. He says that he's going to have a kick hey yeah, but he says that I mean he also studies, cocaine, he studies all kinds of drugs and he's like the psilocybin is heroic. Joseph cocaine kills or he you can't that you can't. So you can't even come close, so he says, like the problem with studying. Cocaine is you have like people who are addicted to cocaine, yeah or war, so on you give them the kind of doses that we can and part of the study is like it is nothing to them yes, Sir Simon is the only one were like even like daily, users like regular users by are blown away by the does they give them of sir they will have going back. You can go to russia in your mind. Yeah you could go to outer space, maybe maybe you'll become an astronaut or astronomer? After all, you ve got it

we got our people looked out one up. Well, what is love What do you think this thing is like a dark attachment human beings, and is it something that we should give to just a few people? Yes, that's for sure, when was working with deal you in his book. He didn't used to but he was describing like loki depression and he talked to how he was in the airport and he The girl had a redress. Anyone who thanked her issues are waiting. For and he had realized, he had a registered color and lick weeks and think love is like that when you see someone an you. Yes, like oh, like let your eyes are open like this is something I ve never seen. for I want more of this. That kind of thing: it's really. They really

sorry ants and reorient your thinking you find that, like the world is, all of that. Like nonstop, it's not just like a person, neither it's like, but I it yes, but when it so in a person, it's and holiday level, because it's like I could have this is gonna, be great for years. It's like you every day, something new, but I mean, is that is, and that is where do you think is where I'm like someone who you could talk them for years and not run out of things the target show for years. Yet that's rare and know that they really you leave the room, they will do right by you. That's really rare, while from a russian perspective, don't give me another choice. for this is the whitish new year. New year's eve so

you talked about the session in the world burning down you holding the match at the and you're standing with a big smile on your face. Yes, why so serious But let me ask you if it doesn't include flame, in succession and destruction, and Laughing malleson make up and awaits you at the end. How do we bring more kindness and love to the world and twenty twenty one are easy, be comfortable, saying I want to be happy, and if there's someone who interjection gives you attitude arms length them surround yourself with people who also want to be happy here. Example, my buddy chris williamson, who have mentioned before he's a pot gastric, does modern wisdom. It he's he's awesome dude and we became friends very close friends this past year and he was

dubai recently any said we picks and abide by the poor, just loving life, and it took me a week and then a clicked in my head and I'm like. You know what, for some other people, If they saw him under model at the pool, they would think this is him bragging or humbled aging and that never enter my head on like oh man, I'm so glad my boy can be having a good time. And a sharing his joy with me? That's the kind of Will you just ran yourself with were renders their head to be resentful or anything other than sharing in your bounty. What makes you happy? I'm happy all that And and one the points I made in my life is like I really hated. I really did not like to give advice, because I feel don't give advice until you know your talk, about and to me, what makes me happy is being self actualized I am,

position with my career right, be myself? Twenty four seven where I never have to engage in small talk whenever interact with someone? I don't want to, and I'm very blessed to have that very few people have that answer have that be not only The be rewarded and having people find that, Something of value to them makes me very, very happy, but also being an uncle, you know I've too little nephews there may be very, very happy sherman. His reason and russian? So they talk like immigrants, but that's, ok, we're gonna change that we have to dismember her. That's fine That makes me happy and like to be able to be able to finish this book and no, it's gonna give people a sense of hope that's really validating. What are you most grateful for for our conversation today is still in my bed.

What am I most grateful for? I am very grateful that I can come in here now knowing what we're going to talk about and no it's not gonna, be something I have to be on guard about, or I have to work My words and that neither you or your audience is going to be, spending derisively. I feel safe. Here you walk by civil exit, arguing over whose also thank you for listening to this conversation with mike malice and thank you too sponsors not sweet business management, software athletic greens, all in one nutrition, drink some basket, mail, delivery service and catch up. So the joys success health food, our money, she's wisely,

friends and if you wish click the sponsor links below to get a discard. The sport, this part gas and now let me leave you with some words from Emma goldman on anarchism people. if only as much liberty, as they have the intelligence to want and the courage to take. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time The.