The following the conversation with Dan carlin host of hard core history and common sense, podcast to me, hard core history is one of if not the greatest podcast ever made dan and Joe rogan are probably the two main people who got me fallen in love with a medium of podcasting as a fan and eventually as a park ass for myself. Meaning Dan was surreal to me. He was not just the mere human like the rest of us, since his voice has been a guide through some of the darkest oh, it's a human history. For me meeting him was like meaning, genghis khan, Stalin, hitler, alexander, the great and all of the most powerful leaders in history all at once

in a crappy hotel room in the middle of Oregon? It turns out that he is in fact just the human and truly one of the good ones. This was a pleasure and an honour for me, quick mention of a sponsor, followed by some thoughts related to the episode. First is athletic greens, the only one drink that I start every day with the cover my nutritional bases second, is simply safe or home security company. I use to monitor and protect. My apartment. Third is magic spoon, low, carb, keto, friendly cereal that I think is delicious and finally, cash app. The app I used to send money to friends for food and drinks. Please check out the sponsors in the description to get discount and to support this podcast

As a side, no, let me say that I think we're living through one of the most challenging moments in american history. To me, the way out is the reason and love both require a deep understanding of human nature and of human history. This conversation is about both. I am perhaps hopelessly optimistic about our future, but if indeed we stand at the precipice of the great filter watching our world consumed by fire. Think of this little podcast conversation as the appetite is there to the final meal before the apocalypse. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on youtube, reviewer, five stars in apple podcasts, follow on spotify supporter and patron, or connect with me on twitter at

ex friedman as usual. I do a few minutes of as now and no ads in the middle. I try to make these interesting, but I give you type steps. So if you do skip, please still check out the sponsors by clicking on links in the description. It's the best way to support the spark ass. The show as passive by slow greens, the only one daily drink, the support, better health and peak performance. It complete they replace the multivitamin for me and went far beyond that with seventy five vitamins and minerals, I do intermittent fasting of sixteen to twenty four hours every day and always break my fast with athletic greens. I can't say enough. Good things but these guys it helps me not worry whether I'm getting all the nutrients. I need. One of the many reasons I'm a fan is that they, iterating on their formula. I love continuous improvement. Life is not about reaching perfection. I think it's about constantly striving for,

it and making sure each innovation is a positive delta. The other thing I've taken a long time outside of a third agrees. Is fish oil some especially excited now that their sally fish oil and are offering listeners of this pike ass free months supply of wild caught a mega three fish oil? When you go to a flat agrees that calm slash legs to claim the special offer click, the lead agrees that car flash lex

link in the description to get the fish oil and the only ones? One supplement I rely on for nutritional foundation of my physical and mental performance. This show is also sponsored by simply safe home security company. Every twenty six seconds, there's a break in in this country, but with simply safe home security. You can protect your home around the clock. All it takes is a simple thirty minutes set up you'll even get a free, high definition, security camera, not one of them low definition, security cameras at the other guys. So when you sign up to protect your home today

I have set up in my apartment, but unfortunately, anyone who tries to break in will be very disappointed by the lack of interesting or valuable stuff to take some dumb bells. A pull a bar suits shirts as some bad poach. Here, my computer anyway, you s news and wove report named simply safe best overall home security of twenty twenty. You can set up simplicity, if yourself just like, I did in a few minutes without any tools or wiring, plus there's no contract, no hidden fees and no installation costs go to simply saved our car. Slash, let's get a free, hd camera again at simply safe dot com, slash wax! This episode is also sponsored by magic spoon, low carb, kyoto, friendly cereal. I've been on a mix of kido carnivore diet for a long time. Now that mean

very little carbs, I do unfortunately on a rare occasion- benjy cherries or blueberries or apples, pears, and I only regret it later, but love it in the moment. Just like I used to regret eating cereal, because most cereals have crazy amounts of sugar, which is terrible for you, but magic spoon. is a totally new thing: zero sugar.

Seven grams of protein and only three ned grams of cars. I personally like to celebrate little accomplishments and productivity, less knack of magic spoon. It feels like a cheap meal, but it's not. It tastes the wishes as many flavors, including cocoa, fruity, frosted and blueberry. I tried all of them, they're all delicious, but if you know what's good for you, you'll go with cocoa. My favorite flavour and the flavour of champions click, the magic spoon, dot com, slash, lacks link in the description and use co lex at check out for free shipping. That's magic spoon that car slash lacks and use code lacks. Finally, the shows presented by catch up the number one finance app happen: the appstore when you get it is called lex podcast gas catch up you, you said my friends by bitcoin and invest in the stock market was little as one

I am thinking of doing more conversational folks who work in and around the cook. The currency space similar to ai, but even more so there are a lot of charlatans in space. but there are also a lot of free thinkers and technical geniuses that are worth exploring in depth and with care. This is a good moment to bring up that. If I make mistakes and guess selection and details in conversation, I keep trying to improve correct where I can and also keep following my curiosity wherever it takes me. So again, if you get cash out from the appstore Google play and use the code lex by guessed, you get ten dollars in cash apple. Also donnay, ten dollars, the first, an organisation that is helping to advance, robotic system education, for

young people around the world and now here's my conversation with dan crime. Let's start with the highest philosophical question: do you think human beings are fundamentally good or are all of us capable of both good and evil and is the environment that moulds? How we're the trajectory that we take the life? How do define evil. Evil seems to be a secure. nation eye of the beholder kind of question. So if we define the evil- maybe I can get a better idea of an attack- could be a

shall continue to fighting each other like that. But when we say evil, what do we mean? That's a slippery one, but I think there is some way in which your existence, your presence in the world, leads to pain and suffering and structuring for many others in the rest of us also you you steal. The resources are used them too create more suffering than there was before in the world? So I suppose it somehow deeply connected to others the pre word, which is suffering as you create suffering in the world. You bring suffering to the world, but here's the problem, I think with it. I fully see where you're going with them- and I understand it. The problem is, is the question of the reason for inflicting stuff So sometimes one might inflict suffering upon one group of individuals:

in order to maximize a lack of suffering with another group of individuals or one who might not be considered evil at all might make the rational, seemingly rational choice of inflicting pain and suffering on a smaller group of people in order to maximize the opposite of that for a larger group of people yeah, that's one of the dark things about a spoken and read the work of stephen kotkin, I'm not sure. If you're familiar with the history and he is basically a stolen Joseph Stalin, scholar and one of the things I realized, I'm not sure where to put hitler, but with stolen. It really seems that he was saying- and he thought here doing good for the world heat. I really believe from everything I've heard about Stalin, that he believed that communism is good for the world and if you

to kill a few people along the way if it's like you, said the small groups, if you have to serve, remove the people, stand in the way of this utopian system of communism. The nets actually good for the world, It didn't seem to me that he could even consider the possibility that he was evil. He really thought used and good for the world, and that stuck with me because he's wonder: was to our definition of evil. He seems too brought more evil onto this world. Then,

any human in history, and I don't know what to do with that. While I'm fascinated with the concept so fascinated by it that the very first harker history show we ever did, which was a full fifteen or sixteen minutes, Tom was called alexander versus hitler and the entire question about it was the motivations right. So if you go to a court of law because you killed somebody, one of the things they're going to consider is: why did you kill them and if you killed somebody, for example, in self defense, you're going to be treated differently than if you malicious killed, killed. Somebody maliciously to take their wallet writer and in the show we we wondered cause. You know I don't really make pronouncements, but we wondered about if you believe, hitler's writings, for example, mein kampf, which you know is written by a guy who's, a political,

gear, who wants to get something, it's about is as believable as any other political tracked would be, but in his mind the things that he said that he had to do were designed to for the betterment of the german people right, whereas Alexander the great once again, this is somebody from one two thousand years ago, so I with lots of propaganda in the intervening years, but one of these the views of alexander. The great is that the reason he did what he did was to for lack of a better word write, his name in a more permanent graffiti on the pages of history right, in other words, to glorify himself, and if that's the case, does that mean alexander, a worse person that Hitler, because hitler thought he was doing good, whereas Alexander, if you believe the interpretation was simply trying to exalt alexander so the motivations of the people, doing these things, it seems too, the matter I dont, think you can just sit there and go the,

only thing that matters is the end result, because that might have been an unintentional by product, in which case that person had you been able to show them. The future might have changed what they were doing so, where they evil or misguided or wrong or made the right. You know so, and I hate to do that, because their certain people, like hitler, that I dont feel deserve the if it were the doubt at the same time, if your fascinated by the concept of evil and you delve into it, deeply enough you one to one understand why these evil people did what they did, and sometimes it can confuse the hell out of you, you know who who wants to sit there and try to see things from hitler's point of view to get a better understanding and instead of commiserate with so on, but I'm fat. Obviously, first history show I'm fascinated with the concept. So you think it's possible if we put ourselves in the mindset of some of the people that have led created summit suffering in the world, that all of them had there relations, one had good intent.

Since underlying them. Now I dont have a baby. simply because there are so many a meaning that the law of averages would read would suggest that? That's not true. I guess it is pure evil possible, meaning you are again it slippery, but you, the suffering is the goal is offering a intentional suffer yeah. Yes, I think that- and I think that there's historical figures that that that one could point but that gets to the deeper question of. Are these people saying? Do they have something wrong with them? Are they twisted from something in their youth. you know I'm at these are the kinds of things where were you start to delve into the psychological makeup of these people, in other words, is any

Were you born evil, and I actually believed that some people are. I think the dna can get scrambled up in ways. I think the question of evil is important too, because I think it's an eye of the beholder thing I mean if Hitler, for example, had been successful, and we were today on the sixth or seventh leader of the third reich, since I think his entire history would be viewed through differ lands because that's the way we do things right arm. Genghis khan looks different to the mongolian than he does to the residents of baghdad right, and I think so so an eye of the beholder question: then comes into all these sorts of things it. As you said, a very slippery question wordy put as somebody who is vast. by military history, where do you put violence, as a as in terms of where the human condition is a court being human?

Is it just a little a tool that we use every once in a while? So I'm going to respond to your question with a question: what do you see the difference being between violence and force Let me go forth: I'm not sure that violence is something that we have to put up with as human rights he's forever, that we must resign ourselves to violence forever, but I have a much higher your time, seeing us able to abolish force, and I there's going to be some ground where it, if those two things are not the same, and I don't know that maybe they are where they are. Certainly some crossover and the re I I think, force in a you're, an engineer you'll understand this better than I did, but think about it as a physical law. If you can't stop something from moving in a certain direction without pushing back in that same direction, I'm not

I'm not sure that you can have a society or civilization without the ability to use a counterfeit when things are going wrong, whether its on an individual, we'll level right person attacks another person. So you step in to save that person or on you, don't even at the highest levels of politics or anything else. A counterfeit worse to stop the inertia or the impetus of of another move? So I think that force is a simple, almost law of physics in human interaction, especially at the civilization level. Adding civilization requires a certain amount of if not violence than force so on and again they did their talk him in it goes back into saint augustine. All kinds of christian beliefs about the the proper use of force and people have philosophically tried to decide between. Can you have a sort of an hour? He saw

buddhist sort of way. You know we will be nonviolent toward everything and exert no force or or theirs he's into have force in order to create the space for good. I think force is inevitable. Now we can talk, and- and I have not come up to the conclusion myself- if there is a distinction to be made between force and ireland simonis his arm is a non violent force enough or is violence when done for the cause of good a different thing than violence done either for the cause of evil, as you would say, or simply for random reasons, I mean we humans lack control. Sometimes we can be violent for no apparent reason, our goal. And that's me listen. You look at the criminal justice system alone. In the way we we interact with people who are acting out in ways that we as a society decided is, is intolerable, can you deal with that without force and at some level vial I dont know: can you maintain peacefulness without force? I don't know.

It's too, I build more specific about idea, force d put force, as general enough to include force in the space of ideas Oh you mention buddhism, or religion or just twitter, bigger, no farther. Apart than is the battles we do in the space of ideas of the article debates throughout history, do put forth into that, or do in this conversation, are we trying to re now, keep it to just physical force. in saying that you Intuition have forced might be with us much longer and violence. I think the to bleed together so arm take because it's it's always. It's always my go to example, I'm afraid

sure that the listeners I hated it but take take germany during the nineteen twenties early. Nineteen thirty is before the nazis came to power. and they were always involved in some level of force. You know beating up in the streets or whatever it might be, but think about it more, like an intellectual discussion until a certain point on it. Is there. It would be difficult, I imagine, to keep the intellectual counter force of ideas for at some point degenerating into something. That's more. Coercion on counter forced. If we want to use the phrase we were just talking about, so I think the two are are intimately connected with actions, follow thought right and at a certain point, I think especially when, when one is not achieving the goals that they were, to achieve through a peaceful discussion or argumentation, or I'm trying to convince the other side that sometimes the

ex level of operations is something a little bit more physically imposing. If that makes sense, we go from the intellectual to the physical yeah, so it too easily spills over into violence. Yes and one leads to the other- often so you kind of implied or perhaps a hopeful message, but let me ask in the form the question? Do you think will always have war? I think it goes to the fourth question too. So, for example, what do you do, Meanwhile, we were, let's just play with nation states. Now, although I dont know that nation states are something we should think of as a permanent consular measures at her, but Always one nation state supposed to prevent another nation state from acting in ways it would see as either detrimental to the global community or detrimental to the interests of their own nation state. You know- and I think I think we ve had this question of going back to ancient times, but certainly in the twentieth century, this has come up

Quite a bit, I mean the whole second world war argument sometimes revolves around the idea of what the proper counterforce should be a. Can you create an entity, a league of nations, united nations one world entity, maybe even that that elite he ate the need for counter force involving mass violence and armies and navies. In those things, I think that's enough, discussion were still having is good to think through that, because having us and the united nations. There is usually a centralized control centres. Humans at the top is coming. yes, and I usually like leaders, emerge a singular figures that then can become corrupted by power. It is just a really important. It feels like a really boring thought experiment and something to

really rigorously think through. How can you construct systems of government that are stable enough to push us towards less and less war and less and less on stable and another tough way, which is unfair? application of force is a truly really at the core of the question that we are trying to figure out ass humans as our weapon get better and better and better destroying ourselves? It feels like it's important to think about how we minimize the over applet. asian or unfair application of force, there's other elements that come into play to you and I are discussing this at the very high intellectual level of things, but there's also a tail wagging the dog element to this, so think of a society of warriors a tribal society from a long time ago. Arm. How

Much due to the fact that you have warriors in your society and that their reason for existing what they take. in what they train for what theirs it is in their own civilization. How much does that itself drive the responses of that society right? How do? You need war to legitimize warriors. You know, that's the old argument that you get to and had this in the twentieth century to that that the create of arms and armies creates a an incentive to use them right at and that they themselves can drive that incentive, as a justification for their reasons for existence. You know that's where we start to talk about the interactivity of all these different elements of society upon one another. so, when we talk about in governments and war, we need to take into account the very things: those governments have put into place in terms of systems and armies, and things like that too, to protect themselves referees.

We can all understand, but they exert a force on your ear range of choices. Don't they it's true. You make me realize that in my bringing can, I think I'm bringing of many warriors are heroes in out to me I am where that feeling comes from, but the sort of die fighting is, is an honourable way to die. It feels like that I've always had a pie with this because as a person interested military history, a distinction is important and I try to make it at different levels so at base level that the people who are out there on the front lines doing fighting to me. Those people can be compared with police office, there's an firemen and people, the fire persons com, but but I mean people that are involved in an ethical attempt to perform a town

ask which ultimately, one can see in many situations as being a saving sort of task right of or or if nothing else, a self sacrifice for what they see as the greater good now I draw a distinction between the individuals and the entity that there are part of a military. and I certainly draw a distinction between the military and then the entire for lack of a better word military industrial complex that that services, apart of I feel a lot less on moral attachment to to those upper echelons than I do, the people on the ground, the people on the ground could be any of us and have been in a lot is in a way very professional sort of a cherry. Now, it's a very a subset of the population, but in other periods of time we ve had conscription and dry ass an end. It hasn't been a subset of the population, it's been the population right, and so

it is the society oftentimes going to want to make a distinction between those warriors and the entities the in the system that their part of the military or the people that control the military at the highest political level. I feel alive less moral attachment to them, and I have my much harsher about how I feel about them. I not consider the military itself to be here. Work and I do not consider the military industrial complex to be heroic. I do think that is a tale, wagging the dog situation. I do think draws us into looking at military endeavours as a solution to the problem. Much more quickly. We otherwise might to be honest, a title together. I actually look at the the victims of this as these soldiers We're talking about. I'm if you, if you set a fire

send firemen in two to fight. Then I feel bad for the fire and I feel, like you, ve abused. The trust that you give those people writes a win. when people talk about war. I always think that the people that we have to make sure that a war is really necessary in order to protect are the people that you're going to send over there to fight that the greatest victims in our society of war often the warriors, so in my mind you know when we see these people coming home from places like Iraq, a place where I would have made the argument and did at the time that we didn't belong to me. Those people are victims, and I know they don't like to think about themselves that, because it runs totally counter to the to the ethos, but if you're sending people to protect this country shores, those are rose, if you're sending people to go, do something that they otherwise probably dont, need to do, but there there for political reasons or anything else you want to put in. That's, not defence, will it will. Then you ve made victims of our heroes, and so I

feel like we do a lot of talk about our troops in our soldiers it up, but we don't treat them as valuable as we as as, as the rhetoric makes sound. Otherwise, we would be more on. We would be much more careful about where we put them, you're gonna, send my son and I'll have a son. I have daughters budgeting to send my son into, arms way. I'm going to demand that you really need to be sending him into harm's way. I'm going to be angry at you, if you put him into harm's way, if he doesn't it, if it doesnt warranted, and so I have much more suspicion about the system that sends these people into these situations where they require hard to be heroic than I do. The people on the round that I look at as either the people that are defending us You know in situations like this in the second world war, for example, or or the people that turn out to be the individual victims of the system.

where they're, just a cog in the machine and machine doesn't really care as much about them as as, though the rhetoric and the propaganda would insinuate, yeah and as my own family history, you be nice. If we can talk about is a grey area and in the places that you're talking about a grey area in everything everything. But when that grey areas, part of your blood as it is. For me, it's it's worth shining light on summer shirt. Gimme example with you, so you did a programmer for episodes of ghosts of the past front, so I was born in the soviet union I was raised the moscow my dad was born and raised in kiev. My grandmother, who just recently passed away, was raised in ukraine, she's eddie, it's a small,

de on the border between russia and ukraine? Have a grandfather born and care and care for the interesting about the timing of everything, as you might be able to connect is she survived, he's the most better. woman of every kind of my life in most of the world, your spirit, I carries probably from her she survived. power, the ukrainian starvation of the thirties. She was beautiful, tina girl during the nazi occupation of souls, he survived. All of that and, of course, family that have to everybody here and in so many people died the whole process and one of the things you talk about in your programme is that the grey area is even with the warriors. It happened to them just because you're saying now tat they didn't have a choice my my grandfather and on the other side, he was on

machine gunnar. There was in ukraine is that in the red army in the red army- and they threw like the the statement, was that of its obvious, but the rule was there's no surrender, so you but I die so you and me that you basically, The goal was when he was fighting and he was lucky enough when the only to survive by being wounded early on, is there's a march of nazis towards a guess. Moscow and the whole goal in ukraine was slow every region too slow them into the into the winter. I mean apes view message a hero and he believed that he's in this Tobacco, which is survival bias and that in a bullets can't hurt

and that's what everybody believed and, of course, everyone that he quickly rose to the ranks. Russia's put it this way because everybody died. It is well. It was just bodies, dragon heavy machine guns. Like always, I was slowly retreating shooting in retreating, shooting and retraining, and I don't know he was a hero to me like I always I grew up thinking tat. He was the one that sort of defeated the nazis and but the reality that it could be another perspective, which is all this happened to him by incompetence of stolen the incompetent incompetence and the men of the soviet union being used like ponds, in a in a shadowy played game of chess right. So, like one

narrative is of him as a victim as as your kind describing and it then somehow that's more paralyzing and that's more, I don't know it feels butter to think of him. a hero and as russia, so the union saving the world, I mean that narrative offers in the united states that that yesterday's whiskey. In saving the world from the nazis. It feel that narrative is powerful for people. Sure and I carry it still with me, but when I think about the right Did you think about that war? I'm not sure. If that's the crack narrative, let me suggest something there's a line that let a marine name, eugene sledge ah had said once, and I keep it on my phone because it's it's, it makes a real distinction and he said The front line is really where the war is an anybody even

hundred yards behind the front line doesn't know what it's really like. Now the differences is there are lots of people miles behind front line that are in danger right. You can be anymore. Nicole unit in the rear and artillery could strike you planes could try me you, you could be in danger, but at the front line there are two different things. One is That that, and at least in I'm doing what a reading on this right now reading a lot of veterans accounts aims jones who wrote books like from here to eternity fictional accounts of the second world war? but he based them on his own service, he was it guadalcanal, for example, in nineteen forty two, and Jones had said that the evolution of a soldier in front line action were, wires and almost surrendering to the idea that you're going to live that you use youtube come accustomed to the idea that you're going to die and he

say you're, a different person simply for considering that thought seriously because most of us don't. But what that allows you to do is to do that job at the front line right if you're too concerned about your own life, if you become less of a good guy, your job right, the other thing that the p when the one in the one hundred yards of the frontline do that the people, rear medical unit, really doubt if you kill- and you kill a lot right- you don't just oh there a sniper back here. So I shot him. It's we go from one person, into another and we kill lots of people. Those things will change you and what that tends to do not universally cause. I've read accounts from red army soldiers and their very patriotic right, but a lot of that patriots comes through years later. As part of the new stall and the remembering when you're down at that front one hundred yards. It is often boil down to a very small world, so your grandfather,

was it your grandfather, grandfather, the machine gun he's concerned about his position and his comrades and the people who use a responsibility too and those it's a very small world. At that point, and to me that's where the heroism is right, he's not fighting for some giant world civilization thing he's fighting to save the people next to him and in his own life at the same time, because they're saving him too and and that there is a a huge amount of heroism to that, and that gets to our question about force earlier. Why would you use force we'll have to protect these people on either side of me read their lives. Now is their hatred hated, the germans what they were doing as metric. I, ah I gotta a note from a pole not that long ago, and I This tendency to refer to the nazis right the regime, and he said why do you keep calling them nazis? He says say, say what they were: they were germans and this,

sky. Wanted me to not absolve germany. By saying all it was this awful group of people that took over your country. He said the germans did this and there's that bitterness where he says, let's not forget in what they did to us and why and what we had to do back right. So for me, when we talk about these combat situations, the reason I call these people heroic is because of their fighting to defend things. We could all understand me if you can after my brother and I take a machine gun and shoot. You and you going to overrun me and you're gonna, get it built that become the situation. We talked about counterforce earlier much easier to call yourself a hero when you're safe people for your saving this town right behind you, you know it. They, through your machine, gun, they're, gonna burn his villages they're gonna, throw these people out in the middle of winter ease families that to me as a very deep?

sort of heroism than this amorphous idea of patriotism and patriotism is a thing that we often get used with right people. People manipulate us through low if the country and all this, because they understand that this is something we feel very strongly, but they use it against us. Sometimes in order to whip up a war fever or to get people I mean is a great line, and I wish I could remember it in its entirety. Determine during had said about how easy it was to get the people into a war. He says you know you just appeal to their patriotism mean there, there's buttons that you can push and they take advantage. Things like love of country and the way we are on the way we loyalty and admiration to the warriors who put their lives in the line. These are manipulative all things in the human species that reliably can be counted on to me. thus in directions that, in a more sober reflective state of mind, we would consider differently. It gets the main you get this war fever up a people

people wave flags and they start denouncing the enemy, and they starts. I mean you, don't we've seen it over and over and over again in ancient times this happened, but the love of country is also beautiful. So I haven't seen america's marshall people in america- love their country, like this patriot, strong in america, but it's not. Strong, as I remember, even with my sort of being younger the love of the soviet union, now it was it the soviet union. This requires a distinction or was it the russia what it really was was the communist party. Ok, so was this: it was sunday them in place. A system in place like a loving, haven't quite deeply psychoanalyze. Exactly what you love. I think you'll love that, like populous message, of the worker of the common man. That's a homage Let me draw did the comparison- and I often say this, that that the united states, like this

The union is an ideological based society right, so you take a country like france, it It didn't matter which french government you're in now the french had been the french for a long time right, ah e, it's it's not based on an ideology right, whereas what nights. The united states is an ideology: freedom, liberty, the constitution This is what draws the e pluribus unum kind of the idea right this that out of many one, were what why binds all these unique different people they share. I believe this ideology, the soviet, you was the same way. As you know, the soviet union, russia, was merely one part of the soviet union and if you believe the rhetoric until stalins time, everybody was going to be united. under this ideological banner some day right away was a global revolution, so idealized Nickel societies are different and to be a fan,

the ideological, a framework and goal. I mean, I'm a liberty person right. I would like to see everybody in the world have my system of government, which is part of a of a bias right, because they might not want that, but I think it's better for every one cause. I think it's better. me at the same time when the ideology, if consider- and you know the stems from ideas of the enlightenment and there's a bias there so my bias towards them, but you feel- and this is why I say to bring freedom to Iraq, we're to bring freedom to hearing to bring freedom, because we think we're spreading to use, That is just undeniably positive, we're going to free you, when give you this it's hard for me to to wipe my own bias away from them right, I could, if I were in Iraq, for example, I would want freedom bright, but if you then leave and the iraqis vote for whom they want. Are they gonna vote somebody that will I mean you know

at russia now and I hear from russians, court bit because so much of my arm my views on russia and the soviet union were formed in my formative years and and we know we were not hearing from many people in the soviet union back then, but now you do either from russians. Today will say your views, stolen archaic and cold. So so you try to reorient your beliefs a little bit, but it goes to this idea of. If you gave the people in russia a free and fair vote, will they vote for somebody who promises them? free and open society based on enlightenment, democratic principles, or will they for somebody win the: u S will go, what did they do their voting for some strong man whose just good you know. So I think it's very hard throw away our own biases and and preconceptions and and units at all, I have the beholder kind of thing, but when you're talking about, illogical societies. It is very difficult to throw off all the years of indoctrination into the superior.

Any of your system, I mean listen in the soviet union. Ma Says in one way or another, was part of every classrooms and need to be studying, gene tree and they'll throw marxism in their somehow, because that's what unite the society network gave it a higher purpose. And that's what made it in the minds of the people who were defenders a superior, morally superior. System, and we do the same thing here. In fact, most people do pussy, you're, still french norman, what what what the ideology or the government might be. So so in that sense, it's funny that there would be a cold war with these two systems. Because they are both ideologically based systems involving peoples of many different backgrounds who are united under the umbrella of the ideology for saw this brilliantly put in a funny position that in my formative years I came here when I was thirteen, is one I know. Teenage is your first love or whatever

say fallen? I fit found lovely american set of ideas of freedom individual Helen I pay their yet summit. But I Also remember it's like your member, like maybe an ex girlfriend someplace. I also amber, of being as a very different human, the The soviet idea, like we had the national anthem, which is still the I think, the most bad ass national anthem wishes of the soviet union. Saying worthy indestructible nature. I mean just the war you're. So like american, words like our nice, like we're. Were freedom by russia soviet union national anthem was like were bad mother fuckers, nobody will destroy us. Edges member feeling? in a nation is a kid like down. Not knowing anything. We all. to recite the staff. It was there's a uniform me to everything there. Pride underlying everything I didn't think about all the destructive nature of the bureaucracy,

see the incompetence of all the things that come with the implementation of common especially around the eightys and ninetys, I remember what it's like to love the of idea, some in a funny place of I remember like switching the love them. I joke around about being russian, but you know my my long term, monogamous relationship is now with the idea of the american ideal, I'm stuck with it. In my mind, I remember what it was like tat to love it, and I think about that too. When people criticise china- or they criticise the current state of affairs- with how stolen is remembered and how Putin is. To know that the you can't always wear american ideal of individualism, radical individualism and freedom in analyzing

ways of the world elsewhere. I can china in russia that it does. If you don't take yourself too seriously, We as americans all do. What I do is its kind The beautiful love to have for your government the belief in the nation to let go of me self and your rights and your freedoms to believe in the bigger than yourself: that's actually that's a kind of freedom, your actual, liberating yourself. If you think like life is suffering you're you're giving into the flow of the water, the floor. The way of the world by giving away more power from yourself giving it to what you conceive as as the power of the people together together will do things are really believing, as I do was of farm. What inaccurate, in this case

you know what you call russia, but whatever the heck that is, authoritarian, powerful state, powerful leader believing that can be as beautiful well as believe in the american idea. Not just that. Let me add to what you're saying and I'm very I spend a lot of time trying to get out of my own biases or it is. It is a of a fruitless. never long term, but you try to be better than than you only are one of the critiques that china and I casino as an american. I tend to think about this as their government right. This is a rationale that their government puts forward, but what you just said you know is actually, if you can make that viewpoint, beautiful is kind of a beautiful way of approaching it. The chinese would say that what we call human rights, in the united states and what we consider to be everybody's birthright around the world, is instead western rights. That's the words that western it's a it's a fundamentally where

turn oriented and I'll go back to the enlightenment enlightenment. These ideas on what constitutes the rights of man and they would sink asked that that's not internationally and always applicable right that you can make a case. And again I don't believe this it. This runs against my own personal views, but that you could make a case. That the collective well being of a very large group of people out ways. individual needs of any single person, especially if those things are in conflict with each other ready. If you cannot provide for the greater good, because everyone's so individualist, dick will, then really what is the better thing to do right to suppress individualism? So everybody's better off, I think trying to recognise house one else might see that is important. If we want it, you know you talked about eliminating war. We talk about eliminate conflict. Are the first need to do that is to try to understand how someone else might view something differently than yourself

I'm famously one of those people who buys in to the ideas of of traditional americanism right at it, and look what a lot of people who who live today I mean they would seem to think that things like patriotism choir is a a belief in the strong military and all these things we have today, but that is a corruption of traditional americanism which viewed all those things with suspicion in the first hundred years of the republic, because they saw it as an enemy, to the very things that american celebrated right. How could you have freedom and liberal and individualistic expression if you had overriding military that was always fighting wars and an end. The founders of this country look to other examples like europe, for example, and saw that standing militaries, for example, standing armies, were the enemy of liberty. What we the standing army now and one that is totally

interwoven and our entire society, if you could give you could go back in time and talk to john in seattle right early present in the united states and show him what we have now. He would think it was awful and hope, a bull somewhere along the line the americans had lost their way. Forgotten what they were all about, but we have said successfully interwoven This modern mill terry industrial complex with the traditional benefits of the? a consistent and ideology so that they become twined in our thinking, whereas a hundred and fifty years ago they were actually considered to be at opposite polarities and a threat to one another. So When you talk about the love of the nation, I tend to be suspicious of those things I tend to be suspicious of government attended tend to try very hard to. be manipulated, and I feel, like a large part of what they do, is manipulation and propaganda

and so on, I think a healthy scepticism. Of the nation state actually one hundred percent americanism in the traditional sense of the word, but I also have to recognise, as you so eloquently stated, americanism is not. the universal at all, and so I think we have to try to be More understanding, the are the traditional american viewpoint is that if a place like it does not allow their people individual human rights than there be, denied something being denied and in one hundred years ago, they would have said their god. Given rights, man is born free and, if he's not free, it's because of something done to him right, the government has taken away his god. Given rights, I'm getting sizes us into that. What the I mean, but I mean I think I think the idea that this is universal is in and of itself a bias. Now do I want freedom for every the us, I sure, do, but the people in the soviet union who who really

bought into that, wanted the workers of the world. United, not be exploited by. You know that the greedy blood sucking people who worked them to death and pocketed all of the fruits of their labour. If you frame it that way, that's Like justice is well, you know, so it is it. I of the beholder sort of thing, I'd love to talk to you about Vladimir Putin, So while we're in this feeling and wave of empathy and trying to and others that are not like us one of the reasons I started this by gas is because I believe that there is a few people I could talk to. Some of it is eager to some of it. The stability is this some people- you talk to that. Not many others can talk to the one person ass ours game. I was Vladimir Putin. You still speak the language. This language, wherever that makes it even

I mean you might be, you might be appointed for that job. That's the context in which I'm asking you this question: what are your thoughts about vladimir putin from historical context? Have you studied him? Have you thought about him? Yes, a stat studied is a is a loaded word and here's. Here's and again, I find it hard, sometimes to not filter things through an american landsmen. So as an american I say that the russians should be allowed to have of any leader that they want to have, but what, in the mirror, I would say is, but there should be elections right. So if the right, hence choose vladimir Putin and they keep choosing him. That's their business where, whereas an american I would have a problem is when that leader stops lead the russians make that decision and we would say well now, you're no longer rules

by the consent of the governed. You become the equivalent of a person who may be oppressing your people. You might as well be a dictator right now, there's a difference between a freely, elected and re elected and reelected reelected dictator right. If that's what they wanted and look, I it would be silly to broad brush the russians like it would be so the broad brush, anyone right, millions and millions of people with different opinions, amongst them all, but they seem to like a strong person at the helm and there's a giant chunk of americans who, due to in their own country, but in american, say as long as the freedom of choice is, is given to the russians to decide this and not taken away from the right. It's what, say he was freely elected but a long time ago, and we ve done away with elections since then is is a different story to so. My attitude on on Vladimir putin is, if that's the russian people want

you give them the choice right, if he's only there, because they keep electing him. That's a very different story once when he stops. Offering them the option of choosing him or not using him. That's when it begins to look in the future, We have to someone born and raised with the mind, that and the ideology that is an integral part of of your truly, and that I can't you know you can see greater is a new wants. All you like, but it's hard to escape issue with any of you. You alluded to the two it's hard to escape. What was indoctrinated into your bonds in your formative years? It's like exit your boss These are rolling riot and you can't go back so to me this is so much part of who I am that I have a hard time jettisoning that and saying: oh, no, vladimir putin not being elected anymore. Just fine, I'm too much of a product of my upbringing to go there is that makes Andrea Will they but of course, there's like over saying this gray areas, which is, I believe I have to think through this. But I,

think, there is a point to which at off hitler became the popular choice in acid. in the thirties, There is in in the same way from an american perspective, you can start to criticise some. in a shallow way, someone a deep way. The way their goodness has maintained power is back in. In the press, so limiting one other freedom that we americans value, which is the the freedom of the press or freedom of speech that he it is very possible changing now, but for most of his presidency he was the popular choice and sometimes, by far- and you know I have actually don't have real family in russia who don't love Putin. I The only people who write me about Putin and now waking him are like sort of activists-

why young right, but would like to their strangers. I don't know anything about them. The people I do not have a big family, russia, they love, Putin, do they miss elections? Would they want the choice to prove it at the ballot box and and or or are they so in love with him that there they wouldn't want to take a chance that someone might vote him out. No, they don't think of it. This way They are aware of the incredible bureaucracy, corruption that is lurking in the shadows, which is true in russia everywhere everywhere, but like There's something about the russian. Did this remnants? It's cool corruption, is so deeply part of the russian, so the soviet system that either

the overthrow of the city, the bread, the breaking a part of the soviet union, and Putin coming in reforming a lot of the system. It still deeply in there and- and there are aware of that- that's part of the like the love for Putin. Is partially grounded in the fear what happens when the corrupt take over greedy take over and they see Putin as the stabilizer as like a hard like force that says counterforce. hundred force? They get your shit together, like basically from the western perspective. Putin is, is terrible but a farm form. The russian perspective. Pertness is the think, holding this thing together before goes if collapses. Now, the from there,

Eric aspire has been loud on this in a lot of people from the western perspective, say well, if ass a collapse, let a collapse. You know that's easy! said than done when you don't have to live through that the executive, of anyone worrying about their family about and they so remember the the inflation economic instability and the suffering and starvation. That happened in the nineties with the collapse of the soviet union, and they saw the and a reform in the economic vibrancy that happen when put into power that they think, like the skies holding it together and they see elections as essentially being met business by which the corrupt people committee if you, the system unfairly, as opposed to letting the people speak with their voice, they some figure out a way to manipulate the elections, to elect somebody like

one of them western revolutionaries, and so I think, one of the beliefs, important to the american system is the belief in the electoral system that the voice of the people can be heard in the various systems of government weather judicial, whether it's of basically The assumption is that the system works well enough for you to be able to elect the popular choice. Ok, so there's a couple of things that come to mind on that The first one has to do with the idea of oligarchy, there's a belief in political science. You know it's not the overall believe it

that every society is sort of an oligarchy really if you break it down right. So what you're? Talking about are some of the people who would form an oligarchic class in in in russia, and that Putin is the guy who can harness the power of the state to those people in check the problem, of course, in a system like that. A strong man system right where you have somebody who can who can hold the reins and and steer the ship when the ship is violently in a storm, is the succession. So, if you are not creating a system that can operate without you, then that terrible instability and that terrible future that you, that you justify the strong man for is just awaiting your future. Writing in unless, unless he's actively building the system, that will out live him and allow successors to do what he's doing them than what you

done here is create a temporary. I would think a temporary stability here, because it's the same problem, you haven't a monarchy right where, where you have this one king and he's particularly good or you think, he's particularly good but he's gonna turn that job over to somebody else down the road and the system and karen t, because now ones really worked on at again. You you would tell me if Putin is, is putting into place. I know he's talked about it over the years, putting into place a system that can out live him and that will create the stability that the people in russia like him, for when he's gone, because if the the guards just take over afterwards than one might argue. While we had twenty good years, you know of stability, but I mean would say that if we're talking about a ship of state here the guy steering the ship. Maybe if you wanted to look at it from the russian point of view, has done a great job, maybe two saying but the talks are still out there and he's not going to be the at the helm forever. So one would think that his job to make sure that there is growing.

To be someone who can continue to steer the ship for the people of russia after he's gone now, let me ask some curious: do an and an ignorant so or is he doing do, you think is he's setting it up so that when there is no putin, state is safe from beginning. That was the idea whether one of the fascinating anything Now I read every biography, english written biography, important. So I haven't. I need to think more deeply, but one of the fascinating things is how the power change I'm a potent hosted a different man. We took power than yesterday actually in many ways admired the man that took power. I think it is very different, Stalin and hitler at the moment they took power. I think hitler and Stalin were both in our previous discussion.

already on the trajectory of evil. I think Putin was a humble loyal man, we took power. The man he is today is worth thinking about, Studying I'm not sure that that that's all. I know what absolute power corrupting absolutely, but it's you know it's kind of a line. I you, the it's it's a beautiful quote. We have to really think about it, you know what is actually mean the things that I still have to do it I'm in focusing on securing imitation razor I've been having gone through the dark place. Yet I feel like I can't do the dark thing for too long So I really have to put myself in the mind of Putin, leading up to the conversation for now my senses. His he took power when yeltsin gave him one the big sort of

of the new russia was for the first time in its history. A leader could have continued being in power and shows give away power. That was the george Washington right. You in the united states will look at that adapts the pilot of your esi, a sign of good things, and so there was a huge act and Putin said that that that was if the defining thing that will define russia for the twenty first century that act and he will carry that flag forward. That's why in rhetoric he after two terms, he gave away MAO to Medvedev and yet but it was a puppet right yep it yes, but it was but like the still the story was being told, I think he believed it early on. I think he I believe he still believes it, but I think he's deeply suspicious of the corruption that

in the shadows, and I do believe that, like somebody who thinks click bay journalism is broken. Journalist annoy the hell out of me. Eight journalists working perfectly irrelevant broke in journalists made things worked great expec So I understand from Putin's perspective that jury journalists can be it, is the enemy of the state, because people think journalists right these deep, beautiful, philosophical peace. is about criticising the structure of government in the proper way, ass. He waited on the steps we take to make greater nation. No, they their unfairly takes stuff out of content they are there. if the coin weighs the same? Shallow, not interesting aid, call your racist or sexist, or they make up stuff all the time, so I can put myself in the mindset of a person that thinks it is k to remove that kind,

shallow fake news voice from the system. The problem is, of course, that is a slippery slope too. Then they remove all the annoying people from the system, and then you, change what annoy means, which annoying stars becoming a thing that, like anyone who opposes the system, I mean I get get the slippery I. It is obvious that has become a slippery slope by can also put myself in the mindset of the people that, cs: it's ok to remove the liars from the system as long as it's good for russia Ok, so here in lies in this again the traditional american perspective, because we ve had yellow so called yellow journalism since the founding of the republic. That's nothing new but but the problem then comes into play. when you remove journalists, even in its broad brush, think is, but you remove both the crappy ones who are lying and the ones

telling the truth to your left with simply the the approved government, journalists right, the ones who are toeing the government's line, in which case the truth. As you see, it is a different kind of fake news right. It's the fake news from the government instead of the click bait news and oh yeah, maybe truth mixed into all that who, in some of the outlets, album, I always had with our system here in the united states. Right now is trying to tease the truth out from all the falsehoods and look. I got thirty years in journalism. My job used to be to go through before the internet. All the newspapers and and find the I used to know all the journalists by name and I could pick out- we know who they were and and And- and I have a hard time, picking out the truth and the false it. So I think constantly. How are people who we have all this background who have lived or who are trained and other specialities. How do they do it? But if the guy government, is the only approved outlet for truth.

a traditional american and a lot of other traditional societies based on these ideas of the enlightenment and I talked about earlier- would see that is, a disaster waiting to happen or a tyranny in progress, does that make sense make sense, and I I agree with you. I still agree with you, but it is clear. that's something about the freedom of the press and freedom of speech. In today, s literally the last few years with the internet is changing and the argument in on you? You could say that the american system of freedom of speech is as broken, because the here's here's the belief I grew up on and I still hold, but I'm starting to be sure of trying to see multiple views on it. My belief was that freedom of speech results in a stable trajectory towards truth, always

So, like truth, will emerge as matter of faith and belief that that yeah, there's going to be lies all over the place, but there'll be like a stable thing. That is true that is carried forward to the public. Now it feels like it's so go towards a world word. Nothing is true. What truth is it's something that groups of people convince themselves often those multiple groups of people and their. Idea of some universal truth as exposes the butter is, is something that we can no longer exist under, like some people believe that the green bay packers is the best football team, and some people can think the patriots and they deeply believe it to where they call the other groups liars. Now that's fun for sports, that's fun for her favorite flavors of ice cream, but then

I believe that about science, about the various aspects of our politics, various aspects of certain via different policies. Within the function of our government and like that's not just like some weird thing complain about, but I'll be the nature of things like truth is something we can no longer of what? Let's and let me d romanticize the american history this too, because the american press was often just as biased. Just as I mean, I always to the nineteen seventies as the high water mark of the american journalistic in the post, Watergate era, where it was actively going after the abuses of government and all these things. But there was a famous speech very quiet, though very quiet given by catherine gram, who was a washington post editor, I believe,

I actually somebody said to me how to get it off of journalism or like a J store kind of thing. she added luncheon assured that the gut to the government people, the luncheon dont worry. This is not going to be something that we make a trend. Because the position of the government is something that was carried out, that the newspapers were the war and the newspapers with a big thing up until certainly the late sixties, earlier than the newspapers were still the water carrier of the government and they were the water carriers of the owners of the newspaper. So let's not pretend there was some angelic wonderful time. and I'm saying to me, because I was the one who brought it up. Let's not pretend was any super image, truthful journalism and all that- and I mean you go to the evolutionary period in american history, and it looks every bit as bad as today right as a hopeful message actually says Things may not be as bad as theirs. They look what lessons

more more like a stock market and that you have fluctuations in the truthfulness or or believe ability of the press and there a periods here. It was higher than other periods. The funny thing about the so called click bait era, and I do think it's terrible, but I mean it. It resembles earlier areas to me. So I always compared to when I was a kid growing up when I thought journalism was as good as its ever gotten. It was never perfect, but it's also something that you see very rarely in other from around the world and there's a reason that journalists are often killed regularly in a lot of countries and its because We report on things that the authorities do not want reported on, and I've always thought that that was what journalism should do, but it's gotta be truthful. Otherwise, it's just a different kind of propaganda right. Can we talk about genghis khan, genghis khan, chaired by the way, is a joke this can again giscard? It's not genghis khan. It's either genghis khan genghis khan

So, let's go with the genghis khan, the only thing I'll be able to say with any certain last certain thing, I'll say about it: it's like I dunno gif, vs jif How do I don't know how it ever got started the wrong way that yeah First of all, your episodes, not genghis khan from any people. The favoured is fast ain't. You think about events there had some Much like in their rebels had so much impact on so much of him civilization view. Was he an evil man, this gostar discussion of evil? Another way to put it is read his: loved and much partly made part of the world like mongolia and also read arguments that say that he was quite a progressive for the time. So what are you put him?

is he a progressive or is he an evil destroyer of humans? As I often say, I'm not a historian, which is why what I have tried to bring to the hardcore history. Podcasts. Are these sub so each show has it in there not. I try to kind of peddled them they're, not always like really right in front of your face. In that episode, the soft peddling sub theme had to do with what we refer to as a historical arsonist and its because some historians have taken the position that some time engine? And most of this is early years of historians. Don't do this very much any more, but these were the wonderful questions. I grew up with that blend. That is almost the the intersection between history and philosophy. and the idea was that some, times the world has become so overwhelmed with bureaucracy or corruption, or just stay nation that somebody has to come in, or some group of people or some

Worse has to come in and do the equivalent of a forest fire to clear out all the ed wood so that the forest itself can be rejuvenated. And in every society can then move foreign there's a lot of these periods, where the historians of the past were portray these figures who come in and do horrific things, creating an almost service for free mankind right, creating the foundations for a new world that will be better than the other. One is a recurring theme, and so this was the sub theme of the cons, on cost, because otherwise you don't need me to tell you the story of the mongols, but I'm gonna bring up the historical arsonist element, and but this gets to how the con has been portray right if you want to say: oh yes, he cleared out the dead wood and made for fruit. Will then it's a positive thing. If you say My family was in the forest fire that he sat it you're, not gonna, see it that way too much what genghis khan is credited with on the upside right. So things like

religious toleration and you'll say well, he was Religiously, the mongols were religious, religiously, tolerant and hence this makes them almost the liberal reformer kind of thing, but this need to be seen within the context of of their empire, which was ah very much like the roman viewpoint, which is the romans, didn't care and a lot of time, what your local people worshipped. They wanted stability and, if that kept stability and kept the paying taxes and didn't require the legionnaires to come in, and then they didn't care right and the coins were the same white like they don't care what your practicing as long as it doesn't disrupt their empire and caused them trouble what I always like to point out. Is yes, but the calm could still come in with his representatives to your town, decide Die was a beautiful woman that they wanted in the cons. Concubine grew at any would take them so how live rural. An empire is this right, so so many of the things that they get credit forest. There's. Some kind of nice guys may in

another way of looking at it just be a simple mechanism of control right away to keep the empire stable than at doing it out of the goodness of their heart. They have decided that this is the best and I love because the mongols were what we would call a pagan people. Now I love the fact that they are, I think we call it for the term. We had to do was like, like they were hedging their bats, religiously right, they didn't know which god was the right one so as long as you're all praying for the help of the car were maximizing the chances that whoever the gods are, they get the message right. So I think it's been portrayed as something like a liberal empire the idea of mungo universality. Universality is more about ring the world and is like saying the working to bring stability to the world by conquering it will. What? If that's hitler right?

it can make the same case or hitler wasn't really the world conquer like that, because he wouldn't have been. He wouldn't have been trying to make it equal for all peoples, but my point being that it kind of takes the positive moral slant out of it. If there Innovation wasn't a positive moral slant to motivate, and the mongols. Didn't see it that way I think the way that its portrayed is like- and I would like to use this with this analogy, but it's like and shooting an arrow and painting a bull's eye around it afterwards right. How do we? How do we justify and make them look good in a way that they themselves, probably unless we don't the mongol point of view, per se, I mean there's something called the secret history, the mongols and there's things written down by mongolian overlords through people like persian in chinese scribes. Later we don't have their point of view

but it sure doesn't look like this was an attempt to create some wonderful place where everybody was living a better life than they were before. I think that's that's late. People are putting a nice rosy spin on it. So but there's an aspect to it. Maybe you can correct me cause. I'm projecting sit on my idea of what it would take to tour to conquer so much land, is the ideology is emergent. So if I were to guess, the mongols started out as exceptionally as warriors, who valued excellence in skill killing and not even killing, but the actual practice of war, and you can start out. Molly can grow and grow and grow in order to maintain the stability of the things over which of the car,

current lands. You develop a set of ideas with which you can, like you said, this control, but he was emergent and it seems like the core first principle: Dia of the mongols is just to be excellent. Warriors that fell to that To me, like the starting point, was in some ideology make with hitler and Stalin and with hitler the butt ideology that didn't have anything to do with war at underneath it. It was more about crockery. It feels like The mongols start up more organically have say, is emerging, but almost item urgently. Never just accept what's the native americans with the comanches dick, the different warrior tribes, the jerome is currently obsessed with at the that lead led me to

I can do more? They they seemed to just start out just valuing the skill of fighting whatever the tools of war they had, which were pretty primitive, but just to be the best warriors that could possibly be make a science out of it that, crazy. To think that there is no doubt behind it and they became more back apa. A second I'm reminded of the lines said about the romans that they create a wasteland and call it peace that allow that, but, but but there's a lot of conquerors like that right, where, where you, you will sit there and listen historians forever, have it it's it's the tray. It's the famous trade offs of empire and they'll, say well, look at the trade that they facilitated and look at you, not the religion, all those kinds of things, but they come at the cost of all those peoples that they conquered forcibly an end and by force integrated into their empire. The

thing. We need to remember about the mongols that makes them different than say the romans, and this is complex stuff in way above my pay great, but am fascinated with it and it's more like the command. That you just brought up is that the mongols are not a settled society. Ok, they are, they are they from a nomadic tradition now several generations later, when you have a kublai khan as as they as the emperor of China. It's it's beginning to be edition thing right and the mongols when their empire broke up the ones that were in settled the so called settled. Societies ready wrong places like it they will become more like overtime, the rulers of those places where tradition italy and the mongols and say like that that the cognitive Golden hoard, which is still in in their traditional, nomadic too Toys will remain additionally more mongol. But when you start talking about who the mongols were, I tried it.

to make a distinction? They're, not some really super special people there, just the latest confederacy. In an area that saw nomadic, can better receives going back to the beginning of recorded history, the skippy and the sarmatians, the eight hours homes the magyars, I mean these are all the nomadic. you're, the nomads of the eurasian step were huge, huge players in the history of the world until gunpowder nullified. There their traditional weapons system, which I fascinated with because their traditional web system is not one you could copy, because you were talking about being greatest warriors. You could be air We warrior society have ever seen values that This is what the nomads had of the of the eurasian step was this relief ship between human beings and animals that chain in the equation it

how they rode horses, society is like the byzantine which would form one flank of the step and then all the way. On the other side, you had china and below that you had persia the Societies would all attempt to create mounted horsemen who used archery and they did a good job, but they were now were the equals of the nomads, because those people were literally raised in the saddle they compared them to send tars. The comanches great example consider to be the best horse. I think, while warriors in north america, the command geez. I was love watching. There's paintings, george catalan, the famous are a painter who paint The comanches illustrate but the mongols and the citizens and skip and a virus, and all these people did it to where they would shoot from underneath the horse his neck hiding behind the horse. The whole way you look at a pitcher of

buddy doing that and it's insane. This is what the byzantine couldn't do and the chinese couldn't do, and it was a different level. of of harnessing a human animal relationship that gave them a military advantage. That could not be copied right. It could be emulated, but they were never is good right. That's why they always high these people they hired mercenaries from these areas because they were incomparable rights, the com nation of people who were shooting bows and arrows from the time they were toddlers who were riding from the time they were, who rode all the time I mean they were that the huns were bow legged. The romans said because they were never. They ate slept everything in the saddle create something that is difficult to copy and gave them a military advantage I enjoy reading actually about when that, military advantage ended so seventeenth and eighteenth century

The chinese on one flag and the russians on the other are beginning to use firearms and stuff to break this miller. harry power of these of these various cons them on goals were simply the most dominating and most successful of the confederacies. But if you break it down. They really formed the nucleus at the top of the pyramid of the apex of the food chain, and a lot of the people that were known as mongols were really lots of other tribes mongolian tribes, that when the man It goes conquer you after they killed a lotta you they incorporated you into their confederacy. An often made you go first, you know you're going to fight somebody we're going to make these people go out in front and suck up all the arrows before we go in and finish the job. So to me, Nl, I guess, by a fan of the mongols, would say that the difference in what made the mongols different wasn't the weapon system or the fight with the warriors of the armor anything it was genghis khan and if you go look at the

really dangerous from the outside world perspective, dangerous step, nomadic confederacies from past history was always when some great lee or a marriage that could unite the tribes, and you see the same thing in native american history to degree to arm you had people like attila right or other one called tumen. You go back in history, and these people make the history, because they caused an enormous amount of trouble for their settled neighbours. Normally I mean chinese byzantine and persian approaches to the step. People were always the same. They would pick out tribes to be friendly with they would give the money, gifts hire them and they would use them against the other trees and generally byzantine, especially in chinese diplomatic history, was all about keeping these tribe separated, don't let them form confederation's of large numbers of them, because then there unstoppable attila was a bit of perfect example.

at the huns were another large, the turks, no large confederacy of these people, and they were devastating when they could unite. So the diplomatic policy was don't let him that's what made the mongols difference genghis, khan, united them and then, unlike most of the tribal confederacy, was able they were able to hold it together for a few generations too, linger on the little thread, these starting point and this man jangle khan. Those was elite hamilton. What do you think makes the great leader. Maybe if you have other examples throughout history and great again, lose that to use that term loosely now is going to, for definition, great, you neither of weather is evil a good. It doesn't matter. is there somebody who stands out to you alexander the grace and would talk about military or ideologies and some people bring up after or or

You could be the founding fathers this country, or working The two are, was he manner manner. Century up their hitler of the twentieth century then Stalin and these people had really are a mass, the amount of power, it probably has never been seen in the history of the world. Is there some who stands out to you by war of trying to define what makes a great unite her great leader. In one man or a woman, maybe in the future, the interesting question and on what I thought a lot about because Let's take alexander the great as an example, because alexander fascinated the world of his time I am fascinated ever since people been fascinated with the guy but alexander was a hereditary monarch right here he was handed the king I'm just saying right, but he did not need to rise from nothing to get that job

fact. He reminds me of a lot of other leaders of frederick the great, for example, in prussia. These are people who inherited the greatest army of their day. Alexander unless he was an imbecile was going to be great, no matter what, because I mean, if you inherit the wehrmacht you're, going to be able to do something with it right or alexander's. Father may have been greater philip ii, philip. The second was the guy who, who literally, did create a a a a strong kingdom from a disjointed group of people that were continually beset by their neighbors he's the one that reformed that army took things that he had learned from other greek leaders like the Phoebe leader, a feminine. Does on end and then lose boris lee over his lifetime. Stabilize the frontiers built this system here austin. I doing it he he would he his leg

was made lame me. This was a man who looked like he built the empire and lead from from the front ranks mean so and then- and there who may have been killed by his son. We don't know who assassinated philip but then handed the greater army. The world has ever seen his son. Who then did great things with it. You see this this path, many times in my mind,. I'm not sure alexander really can be that great. When you compare him too people who are rose from nothing, so the difference between what we would call on the united states, the self a man or the one who inherits a fortune. There's an old line that you know. How is that it's a slur, but it's about rich people, it's it's like he was born on. He was born on third base and thought he hit a triple right. Philip was born at home plate and he had hit alexander started on third base, and so I tried to draw a distinction between them. Genghis khan

Is tough because there's two traditions, the tradition that we grew up with here in the united states and that I grew up learning- was that he was a self made man, but there is a true asian, and it may be one of those things that put after the fact, because a lot a long time ago, whether one but you had blue blood in your veins was an important distinction. The distinction that you're often hear from mongolian history is that this was a nobleman who had been deprived of his inheritance, so he was a blue blood anyway, I dont know which is true there. Certainly I mean when you look at a genghis khan. Will you have to go? That is a wicked amount of things to have achieved. he's very impressive as a figure until his very impressive is a figure. Hitler's. An interesting figure he's want those p, Book a cut in the more you study about hitler, the more you wonder where the defining moment wise, because if you look at his life, when hitler was a relatively,

common soldier in the first world war, I mean he was brave, you gotta, he got some decorations, in fact the higher decoration he got in the first world war, was given to him by a jewish officer. And it was all he often didn't talk about that decoration, even though it was the more prestigious wondering is open up a whole can of worms you didn't want to get into, but hitler's and if you said who was hitler today, one of the top things you're going to say is he was an anti semite well, then you have to draw a distinction between general. Regular anti semite semitism. That was pretty common in the era and something that was a rabid level of anti semitism. But Hitler didn't seem to show a rabid level of of anti semitism until after or at the very end of the first world war. So if this is a defining part of this person's character and and much of what we consider to be his his Evil stems from that. What happened to this guy when he's an adult right he's already fought in the war,

change him, so I mean it's almost like the old. There was always a movie theme somebody gets hit by by something, on the head and their whole personality change is right. I mean it almost seems something like that, so I dont think I call that necessarily agree, leader it to me. The interesting thing about hitler is what the hell happened to a nondescript person who didn't really impress anybody with his skills and then in the nineteen when he is all of a sudden, as you said, sort of the man of the hour riah, so that to me it's kind of, but I have this feeling that genghis khan, and we don't really know was an impressive human being from the get go, and then he was raised in this environment with pressure on all sides. You you start with this diamond and then you polish it and you hardened his whole life it would seem to be a very unimpressive jam, stone most of his life, then all of a sudden. So I mean I don't think I can label great leaders in an- and I'm always fascinated by that idea that and I'm trying to member the court was by that date

rate met. O lord acted too great men are often not good men and that, in order to be good, wait. You would have to jettison many of the moral qualities that we normally would consider a Jesus or a gone to europe. He took the immortal with the these these qualities that one looks at as as the good upstanding moral qualities that we should all aspire to as examples right. The buddha, whatever might be, those people wouldn't make good leaders, because what Need to be a good leader off requires the kind of choices that a true philosophical I urge a moral man wouldn't make, so I don't have an answer to your question, have a long way of saying I don't know it just a little bit. It does feel like for my study of hitler that the time moulded the man verses, genghis khan work feels like he. The man molded his time yet

I feel that way about a lot of those nomadic confederacy builders that they really seem to be. These figures that that stand out as extraordinary for want mean in one way or another at risk. room by the way that almost all the history of them were by the enemies that they so mistreated that they were probably never gonna get me good press maiden didn't write themselves at the carry out. We should always yet physically man, we're native american peoples or tribal people's anywhere generally do not get the advantage of being able to write the history of their heroes. Ok, I have recently done, with the rise in the fall of the third reich, one of the historical descriptions of hitler's rise to power nazis rise to power. Is this a few philosophical things I'd like to ask

to see if you can help like one of the things I think about is how does one. be a hero and nineteen theories, nazi germany. What does it mean to be a hero? What do heroic actions look like, I think about that, because. I think about how I move about in this world today. You know that we live in really chaotic, intense times ere. I wanted you to draw any parallels between nazi germany in modern day in any of the nations can think about, but out of the realm of possibility that. Authoritarian governments take hold, authoritarian companies, take hold, and I'd like to think

I could be in my little small way and inspire others to take the heroic action before things get bad and I kind of try to place myself in what would nineteen thirties germany look like? Is it possible to stop a hitler Is it even the right way to think about it and how This would be a hero in it I mean you often talk about the living through a moment in history is very different than looking at that history. Looking when you look back, I also think about it. Would it be possible to understand what's happening, that the bells of war Are I ringing, seems that most people didn't seem to understand. into the authorities that war is coming, that's fascinating and the united states.

I'd inside germany, like the opposing figures The german military didn't seem to understand. This may be off the other. Countries? Certainly france and england didn't seem to understand this. That kind of try to put myself into nineties theories. Germany as I'm jewish, which is another little twist on the whole like what Would I do what should one do? Do you have interesting answers so earlier we talk about Putin and we talked about patriotism and love of country, Sort of things in order to be a hero in nazi germany by our views here, you would have had to have been an hi patriotic to the average germans viewpoint in the nineteen? Thirty is right. You would have to of opposed your own government and your own country and that's a very ill

very weird thing to go to people in germany and say: listen the only way, you're gonna be seen as as as a good german and a hero to the country. we'll be your enemies is we think you could oppose your own government. It's it's a strange position to put the people in a government in saint saying you need to be against your leader. You need to oppose your government's policies. You need to oppose your government, you need help and work for its downfall. That doesn't sound patriotic. It wouldn't sound patriotic here in this country, if you, if you made a similar argument, I will go away from the nineteen thirties and go to the nineteen forty to answer your questions there's movements like White rose movement in germany, which involved young people really and and from various backgrounds. Religious backgrounds are often who worked openly against the nazi government at a time when power was already consolidated, the gestapo was in full force and they

execute people who are against the government, and these young people would go out and distribute pamphlets and they and many of them got their heads cut off with guillotined further trouble and they knew the tat was gonna, be the penalty is a remarkable amount of brain. free and sacrifice, and willingness to die and almost not even willingness, because they were so open about it. It's almost a certainty right and that's incredibly moving to me. So when we talk- and we talked earlier about sort of the human spirit and all that kind of thing there, are people in the german military who opposed worked against hitler, for example, but to me, that's almost cowardly compared to what these young People did in the white rose movement because those people in the in the very marked, for example, who were secretly trying to undermine hitler there. There there now

really putting their lives on the line to the same degree, and so I think when I look at heroes- and this I number once saying, there were no conscientious objectors in in germany as a way to point out to people. You don't have a choice and you were gonna servant and I got letters from Jehovah's witnesses who said yes, there were and we got sent to the concentration tat, those are remarkably brave things. It's one thing to have your own set of standards and values. It's another thing to say. Oh now, I'm going to display them in a way that, with this regime that the death sentence, and not just for me for my father Emily right in these regimes, there was not a lot of distinction made between father and son and wives. That's a remarkable sacrificed to. And far beyond what I think I would even be capable of, and so the admiration comes from, seeing people

who appear to be more morally profound, then you are yourself so when I look at this. I look at that. That kind of thing- and I just say, wow and funny thing is, if you'd gone to most avc, the germans on the street in nineteen forty two and said what do you think of these people they're going to think of them as traitors who probably got what they deserved? So that's the eye of the beholder thing. It's the power of the state. To do so- propagandizing values and morality in a way that favours the state that you can turn people who today we look at his unbelief, the blue, brave and moral and crusading for righteousness and turn them into enemies of the people I'm. So I mean in my mind it would be people like that she ate, I think here is a funny word and we romance as the notion, but if I could do

I get back to nineteen theories, germany from nineteen forty shirt. I feel like the heroic actions that doesn't accomplish much Is not what I am referring to solve many heroes. I look up to that. Like David, goggins, for example the guy who runs crazy distances. He runs for no purpose except for the suffering in itself, and I think his willingness to challenge the limits of his mind. His is heroic. I guess I'm looking for different term, which How could Hitler had been stopped? sense- is that he could have been stopped. In the battle of ideas were or people millions of people were so freeing economically or suffering, because the betrayal of world war, one in terms of the love of countries, how they felt they were being treated and outcome.

Magic leader that inspired love unity. That's not destructive. Could have emerged and that's where the I should have been fought. I would suggest that we need to take into account the context of the times that lead to there's rise of power and anne and created the conditions, were his message resonate it. Or that is not a message that resonates at all times right and it is impossible to understand the the rise of hitler without dealing with the first world war and the aftermath of the first world war and the inflationary terrible depression in germany in all these things and the descent faction with the weimar republics government, which was often seen as as something put into which it was put in place by the the victorious powers hitler referred to the people that site those agreements that, sign. The armistice is the November criminals and

he used. That is a phrase which resonated with the population. This was a population that was embittered and even if they weren't embittered the times were so terrible and the option for operating within the system in a non radical way seem totally discredited writer. You can work for the weimar. public, but they tried and it wasn't working anyway and then the alternative to the nazis we're bully boys in the street were communist agitators that, to the average cost it german germany, no better. So you have three options: if you're an average german person you can go with the discredited government put in power by your enemies that wasn't working anyway, you could go with the knot. He's, who seemed like a bunch of super patriots calling for the the restoration german authority or you could go The communists and the entire things seem like a litany of poor options rife

in this realm hitler was able to triangulate? If you will- and he came off as a person, who was going to restore german greatness at a time when this was a powerful message, but if you dont need german greatness restored, it doesnt resonate right. So three Isn't that your love idea, all this stuff, I dont think, would have worked in the time period is because that was not a commodity that average german was in search of than what it is interesting to think about. Greatness can be restored through mechanisms through idea, that are not so from our perspective today. So evil. I don't know the term is but the war continued in a way of. Remember that that Germany, when hitler is, is rising to power. The french are in control of part.

Germany right the roar of one of the main industrial heartlands, germany was occupied by the french to theirs Never this point where you're allowed to let the hate dissipate right every time, maybe things were coming down. Something else would happen to stick the knife in and twisted a little bit more from the average germans perspective right, The reparation right? So if you say, ok, we're we're gonna get back on our feet. The reparations were crushing. These things prevented the idea of love or brotherhood and all these things from taking hold, and even if were germans, who felt that way and their most certainly were. It is hard to overcome the power of every one else, you know what I we say when people talk to me about humanity is, I believe, on individual levels were capable of everything and anything good, bad or indifferent, but collectively it's different right and in the time period that their work,

talking about here, messages of peace, on earth and love, your enemies and and and and all these sorts of things were absolutely D. lose and overwhelmed and drowned out by the bitterness. Hatred and let's be honest- the sense that you were continually being abused by your former enemies. There were a lot of people in the allied side that realise this and said were setting up the next war. This is me. They understood that you can only do certain things to collective human populations. for a certain period of time before it is natural for them to want to, and then you can see german posters from the region, nazi propaganda posters that show them breaking off it aids of their enemies- and I mean germany, await right. That was the the great slogan, so I think Love is always a difficult option and in the context of those times it it was even more disempowered than normal. This goes to the

some linger in it for a little longer the question of the endeavour inevitability of history. Do you think There could have been stopped. Do you think this kind of force the you're saying that there was a pain and those building does a hatred, those building, do you think there was a way to avert? I mean there's two quest it could have been a lot worse and could have been better. In in the trajectory of history in the thirties and forties, the most logical see we we had started. This conversation brings a wonderful bow tie into the discussion and and and buttons it up nicely. We had talked about force and counterforce earlier The most obvious and and much discussed way that hitler could have been stopped has nothing to do with germans when he ray militarized, the rhineland, everyone talks about what a couple of french divisions

I've done had they simply gone in and contested, and this was something hitler was extremely. I mean had been the most nervous time and his entire career, because he was afraid that they would have responded with force and he was in no position to do anything about it if they did so. This is where you get the people who say you know, I'm in churchill's one of these people to where they talk about that that you know he should have been stopped militarily right at the very beginning when he is weak. I dont think this and there were candidate, in the end, the catholic centre party and others in the weimar republic. It may be, could have done things and it's beyond my understanding of of specific german history to talk about it intelligently, but I do think that, had the french respond militarily to Hitler's initial moves in that area that he would have been thwarted and I think he himself believed. If I'm remembering my reading that this would have led to his downfall. So the petition

Do you know what I dont like about this? Is that it almost legitimizes military intervention. Very early stage to prevent worse things happening by. It might be a pretty clear cut case, but it shows we pointed out that there was a lot of sympathy on the part of the allies, for the fact that the german we should have germany back, and this is traditional german land- I mean they were trying to it's almost like the love and the senses justice on the allies. Part may have actually stayed there hand in a way that would have prevented much much much worse things later, but if the times were such that the message of a hit Resonated than simply removing hitler from the equation would not have removed the context of the times, and that means one of two things either you could have had another one or you could have ended

in a situation equally bad in a different direction? I don't know what that means, because it's hard to imagine anything could be worse than what actually occurred, but history is funny that way and that that hitler's always everyone's favorite example of the difference between the great man, theory of history and the trends and forces theories of history writing the times meda hitler possible and maybe even desirable to some. If you took him out of the equation, those trends and forces are still in place right. So what does that mean? if you take him out and the door is still open to somebody else, walk through it, yeah that's mathematically, speed during the year with the problem. ability of charismatic leaders emerge so torn on that I might at this point here is another way to look at the institutional, two stability of germany in that

I'm period was not enough to push back and there purees in german history, I mean that hitler awry who is in a risen in nineteen thirteen. He doesn't get anywhere cause. Germany's institutional power is enough to simply quash that it's the fact that germany was unstable anyway, that prevent a united front that would have kept radicalism from getting out of hand, as it makes sense. Yes, absolutely a tricky question on this. Just to stand still a longer. It is a measure to think about. It is the world were to versus the holocaust. We move. You are talking just now about the way, the history on roles itself and could Hitler had been stopped, and I I don't quite know what to think about hitler without the holocaust and perhaps in his

thinking how essential anti semitism in the hatred of jews? Was it feels to me that a mere I dont worry just talking about. Where did he pick up his hatred of the jewish people? There is, their stories in vienna, and so on they had almost is picking up? the idea of anti semitism as a really useful tool, as opposed to actually believe again as core do in world war, two as it turned out and hitler's it as he turned out, will be possible without anti semitism, could we have avoided the holocaust always an integral part of the ideology of fast, as a mother nazis, not an integral part of fascism because Mussolini

really a meteorite mussolini did it to please hitler, but there was an integral part: What's interesting to me. Is that that's the big anomaly in the whole question, because anti semitism didn't need to be a part of this at all all right. Hitler had a conspiratorial view of the world. He was a believer that the Jews controlled things right. The Jews were responsible for both bolshevism on one side and cabin elysium on the other, they ruled the banks mean the united states was a jew or fide country right of bolshevism was, was a jew, a jew, a fide sort of a a political. In other words, he saw jews everywhere, and he had that line

about it: the juice of europe, a brute force, another war to germany, they'll pay, the price or whatever, but thing you have to believe that they are capable of that that the holocaust as a weird, weird sidebar to the holding and here's what I have always found interesting. Its aside bar that weakened germany has looked at the first world war juice fought for germany right who was the most important, and this is a very arguable point that is just the first. When the pops into my head, who is the most important jewish figure that would have maybe been on the german side? Had the germans had a non anti semitic? Well, listen, devil iris title, and yet it was. I asked I, but with the hope that I should point out that to say germany or europe or rush or any of those things were not anti semitic is to do injustice history right pogroms, everyone. Yes, that is the tenth its standard operating procedure. What

you see in the hit Larry an era, is an absolute huge spike right, as the government has a conspiracy theory that the Jews have it's funny, because hitler, both thought of them- is weak and super powerful at the same time right and an end as an outsider. People that weaken german, the whole idea of the blood and how that connects to darwinism, ins and instead on a sort of stuff is just we're right. A real outlier, but einstein was just play with einstein If there is no anti semitism in germany alone or odin, none above the normal level of rights, the baseline level design stein leave along with all the other, a jewish scientists at, and what does germany have as as increased technological and an intellectual capacity if they stay right, it's something that actually weaken that state. It's it's a tragic flaw in in the hit larry and world view, but it was so and as I do,

you had mentioned earlier, like maybe it was not integral to his character. Maybe it was a wonderful tool for power. I think so, somewhere along the line and really not at the beginning. This guy became absolutely obsessed with this. Within conspiracy and Jews, and an end, he surrounded himself with people and theorist. Somebody use that Yes, really really sort of loosely. You do believe this too, and so you have a cabal of people who are reinforcing this idea that the Jews country the world in turkey called it international jewry was a huge part of the problem and that because of that, they deserve to be punished. They were an enemy within all these kinds of things it's a can. It's a naughty conspiracy theory that the government of one of the most in the big thing would germany was called to right. They were they were. They were leading figurine in culture and philosophy and all kinds of things and that they could be overtaken with this wildly

wickedly, weird conspiracy, theory and that it would actually determine thing. I mean Hitler was taking vast amounts of human resources and using it to wipe out this race when, needed them for all kinds of other things to fight a war of annihilation, so that is the weirdest part of the whole not see a phenomenon is than the darkest possible silver lining to think about is that the holocaust may have been in the hatred of the jewish people may have been the thing that avoided Joe. Getting the nuclear weapons first and tat S, because it isn't that a wonderful historical, ironic twisted, if more so overlaid with tragedy, a thousand. From now will be seen as something really funny, or this that's true is fascinating to think, as you ve talked illness, eaters and destruction right, the tragic flaw And my hope is this:

the discussion I have at my dad is a physicist is that evil. Inherently contains with it that kind of incompetence. So my dad's discussions he's a physicist engineer. His belief is at this time in our history. The reason Levin had nuclear, like bomb terrorist door, opened the weapon somewhere in the world. Is that the kind of people that would be terrorists? simply not competent enough at their job of being a destructive. So it there's a kind of if you plot, the more evil you are, the less boy you are in evil. I mean purely just like we said before, to consider the hatred of jewish people's evil,

because it serve detached from reality sacred just this pure hatred of something is grounded on things that near conspiracy theories. If that's evil. Then the more you sell yourself, the more you give entities, conspiracy theories, the less capable yard The engineering which is very difficult decision nuclear weapons, ineffectually deploying them. So that's the as a hopeful message that the destructive people in this world by their world view incompetent in creating the ultimate destruction. I don't agree with that. A boy I straight up, don't agree with that. So why were still here? Why haven't, we destroy ourselves. Why haven't? A terrorist law has been many decades? Why haven't we? destroyed ourselves to this point. Well, when you say it's been many decades, many dec

like saying in the law in the life of a hundred and fifty year old person, we ve been doing well for a year the problem, the problem with all these kinds of equations and enemies, Bertrand, Russell right that the philosopher who said so. He said it was. It is unreasonable to expect a man to walk on a tight rope for fifty years. I mean that the problem is that this is a long game and let's remember that up until relatively recently, what would you say? Thirty ago. The nuclear weapons in the world were really tightly controlled. That was one of the real dangers in the fall of the soviet union. Remember that the on the worry that, all of a sudden, you were gonna- have bankrupt former soviet republics, selling nuclear weapons to terrorism, one I would suggest and an here's. Another problem is that when we call these terrorist evil? It's easy for an american, for example. that osama bin laden is evil easy for me to say that, but one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. As the saying goes and to other people

he's not what some have been lawton did and and the people that work with him. We would call evil genius the idea of hijacking planes and flying them into the buildings like that, and then he could pull that off and ill at that still boggles my mind. I'm still it's funny, I'm still stunned by that? And yet I you know the idea. Here's the funny part- and I dont I hesitate to talk about this cause- don't want to give any one idea is right, but you don't need nuclear weapons to do increase billy grave amounts of danger is really I mean. What one can Gasoline and a bic lighter, can do in the right place and the right time and over and over and over again can bring down societies. This is the argument behind the importance of the stability that a nation state provides

It's so when we went in and took out saddam Hussein one of the great counter arguments from some of the people who said this is a really stupid thing to do is that saddam Hussein was the greatest anti terror weapon in that region that you could have, because they were threat to him. So he took them and he Did it in a way that was much more repressive than we would ever be right, This is the old line about why we supported right wing death squad countries because they were taking out people. That would inevitably be a problem for us If they did and they they were able to do it in a way, we would never be able to do supposedly we're pretty good at that stuff. You know just like the the union was behind the scenes and underneath the radar, but the idea that the stability created by powerful and strong centralize leadership. Allow them it's almost like outsourcing anti terror activities. Allow them to for their own reasons. I mean you see the same thing.

The serious situation with the Assad's I mean you can't have an so in that area, because that's a threat to the Assad government who will take care of that for you and then that help by not having an isis so on, I was just one if the game is still on on whether or not these people get nuclear weapons are in their hands, I would suggest they don't need them to achieve their goals. Really are the the the crazy thing is if you start thinking like the joker in batman the the terrorist ideas it's funny. I I guess I would be a great terrace cause, I'm just full of those ideas. All the you could do this. It's scary to think of how vulnerable we are, but the whole point is that you, as the joker wooden, do the terrorist actions. That's the that's the theory that so hopeful to me with my dad. Is that all the ideas, your billy, degenerate good ideas. What forget nuclear weapons, how you can disrupt the power grid, how you can disrupt the

attack, our psychology attack liquid can. A gasoline, like you, said, somehow, disrupt the american system of ideas that coming up a good ideas. There are we Evil people can't come up with evil genius ideal. That's what I'm saying we have this hollywood story. I dont think history backs I think you can say with the nuclear weapons it does, but only because they are so recent yoda mean we'll genius, I mean that's almost proverbial, but that's ok, so the to push back for the fun of it. our diet. I don't need it. I want you to leave this with a terrible mood. Every hope you haven't heard, but I tend to be a little cynical about that stuff about, but that goes to the definition of evil. I think because

I'm not so sure human history has a lot of evil people being competent. I do believe that they mostly like in order to be good at doing what may be perceived as evil. You have to be able to construct an idea ology around which you truly believe when you look in the mirror by yourself, you're doing good for the world in its difficult to construct, an ideology where destroying the lives of millions are disrupting the american system, and you already contradict my if, as I was saying it is, eight people have got this already gas, so I, but but then, the question of like about aliens with the eye? that if the aliens are all out there, why haven't they visited us? The same

question if it so easy to be evil, not easy as possible to be evil? Why haven't would destroy Ourselves in your statement is from the context of history. The game is still on and has just been a few years since we found the tools for ourselves and one of the challenge? of our modern time, don't often think about this pandemic kind of revealed, how soft gotten in terms of our deep dependence on the system. So somebody mentioned to me you know what happens if power goes out for day? What happens of power goes out for a month?

alpha exit the person that mentioned. This was a berkeley faculty that I was talking with he's an astronomer who's, observing solar flares and it's very possible that a solar flare. They happen all the time to different degrees. Look at your cell phones yet to knock out the power grid here for months, so you're, just a thought: experiment, what happens of just power goes out for a week in this country like the ear the electromagnetic magnetic pulses in the nuclear weapons in all those kinds of things, but maybe that's an act of nature. Yes, even just the act of nature will reveal like a little rigidity, the fragility of it all and then evil can emerge. I mean the cat the things that might happen or power goes out, especially

during a divisive time where you won't have food at at baseline level. That would mean that the the the entire supply chain begins to break down, and then you have desperation and desperation opens the door to everything Kaskade dark question, as opposed to the other things we've been talking about, but there's there's always a thread, a hopeful message. I think it will be a hopeful message on this. One too may have the wrong guess. If you were to bet money, on the way that human civilization destroys itself or a color it is in some way that unease where there was to be unrecognizable to us as anything akin to progress What would you say? Is it nuclear weapons? Is it societal breakdown through just more traditional kinds of war. Is it engineer

pandemics, thou technologies, that artificial intelligence is it something leap of canvas expect yet give assent of how we humans will destroy ourselves might we were forever. I think what what guy in my view, of this thing is: is the ability for us to focus ourselves collectively right now gives me the choice Of looking at this and saying what are the odds, we will do acts verses? Why right so go? Look at the sixty two cuban missile crime Where are we looked at the potential nuclear war. We stared right. In the face of that to me, I consider that to be you want to talk about a hopeful moment, That's one of the rare times in our history, where I think the odds were overwhelmingly that there would be a nuclear war and I'm not the super kennedy worshipper that did. I grew up in an era where he was especially amongst people in the democratic party. Here,

almost worshipped, and I was never that guy, but I will say something: John F Kennedy by himself probably made decision. That saved a hundred million or more lives, because everyone around him thought he should be taking the road that would have led to those debts and to push back again That is when you look at it now I mean again. If you were a betting person, you would have bet against that and that's rare right, and so so when we talk about how the world will end the fact that one person actually had that in their hands meant that it wasn't a collective decision. It gave member said. I trust people on an individual level, but when we get together were more like a herd, we devolved down to the lowest common denominator. That was something what higher ethical ideas of aceh,

No human being could come into play and make the decisions that debt that influence the events, but when we have to act collectively, I get a lot more pessimistic. So take what we're doing to the planet and we talk about it always now in terms of climate change, which I think is far too narrow. A look at you you know, and and and I I always get very frustrated when we talk about his arguments about is it happening? Is it human to just? Look at the trash. Forget forget climate for a second we're destroying the planet because we're not taking care of it and because what it would do to take care of it would require collective sacrifices. That would require enough of us to say, ok and- and we can't get enough of us to say, ok because too many people have to be on board, it's not john F Kennedy making one decision from one man we had to have eighty five percent of us or something around the world. Not just you can't say we're gonna stop doing

damage the to the to the world here in the united states. If china does it right, so the amount of people that have to get on board that train is hard. You get pessimistic, hoping for those kinds of shifts unless it in a you arms about to explode. We have you, and so I think, if you're talking about a gambling man's view of this, the thatch gotta the odds on favorite, because it requires Can you name I mean in this? systems, maybe aren't even in place right that the fact that we would need inter governmental bodies that are completely discredited now on board, and you would have to subvert the national interests of nation states. I mean that the amount of things that have to go right, in a short period of time- and we don't have six hundred years to figure this out right so to me that that looked like the most likely just because the things we would to do to avoid it seemed the most unlikely that makes Anthea s absolutely I

believe call me live in just a few, said with individual, I believe that charismatic leaders, individual leaders, will save us like what is it you don't get em all at the same time. What, if you get a charismatic leader in one country, but on what have you got a charisma attic leader in a country that doesn't really matter that much well, it's a ripple effect started one leader and that charisma inspires other leaders like so it's sick one and queen steps up and then the rest. They asked us behaving and then there's like little other spikes of leaders that emerge and then that's where innovation emerges. I tend to believe that, like when you heat up the system and shit starts getting really chaotic, and the leader, whatever this clause intelligence that we develop the leader will emerge like there is just as much of a chance, though, that the leader would emergence

say the jews are the people who did all this going to you know what I'm saying is that the idea that they would come up? You have a charismatic leader and he's going to come up with the rights or she is going to come up with the right solution, as opposed to totally coming up with the wrong solution. I mean, I guess what I'm saying is you could be right, but a lot of things happen. go the right way, but my intuition about evolution, process that led to the creation of human intelligence and consciousness on earth results in the power of like. If we think just the love in the system versus the heat in the system. The love is greater than human that date, the than that human kindness potential, innocent there is greater than the human hatred potential and so the leader that is in the time when it is needed the leader that inspires love and kindness. it is more likely to emerge and will have more

power, so you have the hitler's of the world that emerge, but there actually in a grand scheme of history, are not that impact. For so it's weird to say but that many people died in war war too, if you look at the hit the others, the full range of human history. You know it's. You got up hundred million were our whatever that is with natural pandemics. Do you and those kinds of numbers, but it's still a percentage. I forget what the percentages may be. Three five percent of the human population on earth may be syllable focused on a different region, but it's not destructive to the entirety of human civilization. So the I believe that the the charismatic leaders one is needed that do good for the world in the broader sense of good,

Are more likely to emerge than the ones that say, kill all the jews? It's a possible, though- and this is just the I've thought about this all of thirty seconds, but I mean it if it wouldn't biting money here and that on the twenty first century, who's gonna win. I think maybe you divided this into too much of a black and white dog me this love and good on one side in this evil on another. Let me throw something that be more in the centre of that linear, a balancing act, self interest which may or may not be good. good good version of it. We call enlightened self interest right, the bad version of it. We call selfishness butts, Self interest to me seems like something more likely the impact the outcome than either love on one side or evil on the other, simply a question of what's good for me or what's good for my country or what's good from my point of view or what's good,

my business. I mean, if you tell me, and maybe I'm I'm a coal minor- or maybe I a coal mine if say to me: we have to stop using coal Turning the earth. I have a hard time, disentangle ling, that greater good question from my right now. Good feeding my family question right. So I think- I think. Maybe it's gonna be a much more banal thing than good and evil. Much more a question of we're, not all going to decide at the same time that the interest we have are aligned. Does that makes a totally, but I mean I've, looked at nine rand and objective as some kind of really thought like how bad or good can things go on everybody's acting selfishly, but I think we're just talking to answer here with microphones talking about besides you make, as I said, but the question is when they, when they spread. So what? What is? What do I mean by

loving, kindness, I think its human flourishing on earth and throughout the cosmos it feels like whatever the engine that drives human beings is more likely to us Thank you. Human flourishing and people like are not good for human flourishing. So that's what I mean By good is, they is, is theirs I mean, maybe it's an intuition that kindness is an evolutionary advantage. I hate those terms. I had to reduce yeah that evolutionary biology always, but it seems like forest multiply throughout the universe, is good to be kind to. Other and those leaders will always emerge to save us from there,

hitlers of the world. They want to kind of burned the thing down with a flame thrower, that's the intuition, but let's talk about you, you brought up evolution several times. Let limit! Let me play with that for a minute I think, going back to animal times. We are conditioned to deal with overwhelming threats right in front of us. So I have quite a bit of faith in humanity when it comes to impending doom right outside our door. krypton about to explode, I think humanity can route roused themselves to great if and would give power to them people who needed it and be willing to make the sacrifices, but that's what makes I think the the pollution slash climate change, lash, you know screwing up your environment and a threat. So particularly insidious is. It happens slowly right it defies fight and

mechanisms it defies the natural ability we have to deal with the threat that right on top of us, and it requires an amount of foresight that, while some people would would be fine with that most people are too worried, and understandably, I think too worried about today's threat, rather than next generations threat or whatever it might be so mean when we talk about when you say what would you think the greatest threat is, I think with nuclear weapons. I think, could we have a nuclear war? We darn right could. But I I think that there's enough of of inertia we're against that, because people understand instinctively if I decide to launch this attack against china and I'm india. We're gonna have fifty million dead people tomorrow, whereas if you say we're gonna have a whole planted the dead people in three generations. If we don't start now,

I think the evolutionary away that we have had have evolved mitigates may be against that. I other words. I think I would be pleasantly surprised if we could pull that offers that makes total. I don't mean to be like behind that underlies describing do, but this was a fund that way, I think, we're both. Maybe I'm over the top on the word, or maybe I'm over the top on the two sides it makes it makes for a fund chat. I think so one one guy that I've talked to several times is slowly becoming a friend. Guy named elon musk, visa, big fan of harker history and especially genghis khan. a series of episodes, but really all of it. Humanism, his girlfriend grimes, listen to it, she's hey! I don't like you ok awesome. So that's like relationship goes like listen to harcourt.

during the weekend with your loved ones. Ok salami is, if I were to look at the guy from our perspective of human history, It feels like he will be a little speck. That's remembered all using I like the people. What will we remember form our time poor? people will remember whether it's the hitler's or the einsteins who who's going to be hard to predict when you're in it, but it seems like you. I owe you one of those people remembered and if I were to guess what he's remembered for its the work is done with basics and potentially being the person night. We all know, but the being the person who launched a new era this aspiration philip centuries from now. If we are successful,

surviving long enough to venture out into the toward the stars. It's weird ask you this. I don't know what your opinions are, but do you think humans will be a multi planetary species in the arctic of history. Do you think elon will be successful in his dream and he does He doesn't shy away from saying it this way right. he really wants us to colonise mars first, and then colonise other earth like planets in other solar systems throughout the galaxy, give a hope, tat. We humans will venture out towards the stars. So here's the thing and this actually again double I'll, do what we were talking about earlier. I actually first of all, I too spacex, and it is when you it's hard to get your mind round because he's doing what it took governments to do before. Ok, okay, so so it's incredible that were watching endeavour

You will companies and stop doing this during a faster and cheap again and and and pushing the arbela right faster than the governments at the time were moving as its core it. It really is, I mean there's a lot of people who, I think who think alone is, is overrated and you have no idea right when you go see at each. You have no idea, but that's actually not what I'm most impressed with its tesla. I most impressed women and the reason. Why is because, in my mind, we just talked about what I think is the greatest threat, the environmental stuff and I talked about are inability may be all at the same time to be willing to sacrifice our self interest in order for the for the goal, and I dont want to put words and elands miles so you can. You can talk to him if you want to, but in my mind what he's done is recognised that problem and instead of building a car, that's a piece, a crap, but you know it's good. For the environment.

you should drive it he's trying to create a car that, if you're only motivated by your self interest, you by it anyway and will help the environment, to help us transition away from one of the main causes of damage when one of them this pandemic and the shut down around them europe has done is show How amazingly quickly the earth can actually rejuvenate we're, seeing clear skies and places species come, and you would have thought it would have taken decades for some of this stuff. So what if today, just one major pollution source. We didn't have the pollution caused by automobiles right and an if, if you had said to me dan, what do you think the odds of transitioning away from that were ten years ago. I would have said well, people aren't gonna, do it, because it's inefficient at this, it's that nobody wants to buy, but what, if you created a vehicle that was superior in every way, so that, if you were just a self oriented consumer you'd buy it because you wanted, that

Ah that's the best way to get around that problem of people, not wanting dignan. I think he's identified that and as he's told we before you know, when the last time a car company was created that actually you know Bob he's right, and so I happened to feel Even though he is pushing the envelope on the space thing, I think somebody else would have done that some day, I'm not sure, because of the various things he's mentioned, how difficult it is to study. I'm sure that the industries that create vehicles for us would have gone where he's gone waiting to lead them if he didn't force them there through consumer demand by making a better car. The people wanted anyway, they'll follow the copy. They'll do all those things, and yet who was gonna do that so I hope he doesn't need me for saying this, but I happen to think the tesla idea me alleviate some of the need to get off this planet, because the planet's being destroyed right edward.

the colonized mars, probably anyway, if we live long enough and I think the tesla idea not just e lawns version, but ones that follow from other people is the best chance of making sure we're around long enough to see mars colonized, as that makes sense, yeah totally and one other thing from my perspective, because I'm now starting a company, I think the interesting. thing about iran is. He serves as a beacon of hope, like pragmatically speaking, for people that serve to push back on earth. Doom conversation from earlier that a single Individual could build something that allows us at self interested individuals to gather together in a collective way actually alleviate some of the dangers that face our world psych. It gives me hope, as an individual, that I can build something that can actually have impact

act that counteracts the the stolen Then the hitler's and all the threats that face that human civilization face is that an individual has the power. I didn't believe The individual has that power in the in the house government, like I don't you like anyone. Presidential candidate, can rise up and help the world unite the world. It feels like from everything I've seen in and you're right would tesla it can bring the world together to do good, as a really powerful mecca some of you know, whatever you say about capitalism leak and bill companies. That was start no starts with a single division, of course, is a collective them that gross around that, but the leadership a single individual, their ideas, their dreams. Their vision can catalyze, something that takes over the world and does

good for the entire world, but if I think but again, I think genius of the idea is that it doesn't require us to go head to head with human nature right. He is he's he's actually built human nature, to the idea by basically saying I'm not asking you to be. Environmental activists. I'm not asking you to sacrifice to make the I'm to sell you a car you're going to like better and by buying it you'll the environment that takes into account our foibles as a speed he's an actually leverage is that to work for the greater good and that's the sort of thing that does turn off my little do casters cynicism thing a little bit because you're actually hitting us where we live right, you're, you're, you're, not you can take somebody who doesn't even believe the environment's a problem, but they want to tesla so their inadvertently helping anyway, I think. That's the genius of the idea yeah, I'm telling you that's one way to make love me! more efficient mechanism of change,

Then I hate making it in self interest and make this just creating a product that that leads to more love, then than hate you gonna, wanna love your neighbor cause you're gonna make a fortune. Is that right, why you right I'm on board as way urine said, loves the answer that I think are exactly what he meant. Ok, let's try something new go. Are you were recorded episode staring into ice on you Common sense programme yeah that has started, lot of conversations quite moving was quite haunting me lot. Angry emails really hot course, something I haven't done in thirty years. I endorsed a political candidate from one of the two main parties, and there were a lot of disillusioned people because of that I guess I didn't hear is an endorsement. I just heard it as.

The similar flavour of conversation. Is you have been in the hard core history, so must the speaking about modern, times in the same voice ass. He speak about when you talk about history, and so is just a little we have a hunting view of the world today,. I know we were just wearing our doom tat. Do to stop me. that, right back on our you have been a bit like the term doom castor is, is there is there. How do we get love to win? What's the way out of this? Is there some hopeful Lying there we can walk. you are to avoid something and I had to use the terminology, but something that looks like a civil war

not necessarily a war of force, but at a division into a level where doesn't any longer feel make a united states of america with an emphasis on united is. Is there a way out? I read a book a while back, I want to say George Friedman, the stratford guy wrote it with something called the next hundred years. I think it was called- and I remember thinking I didn't agree with any of it, and one of the things I think he said in the book was that the united states was going to break up going from memory here. He might not have said that at all, but something was can my memory, but then I remember thinking arm, but I think some of the arguments were connected to the differences. that we had and the fact that those differences are being exploited. So we talked about media earlier in the lack of truth. In it we have media climate that is incentivized to take

wedges in our society and make them wider, and no countervailing force to do the opposite or to help the not so there is a famous memo, a group called project for a new american century and they took it down, but the way back machine online still has an happened before nine eleven spawned all kind of conspiracy theories cause. It was saying something to the affair a and really paraphrasing here, but you know that the united states needs another pearl harbor type event, because those Albania is a country that, without those kinds of events periodically is naturally geared towards pulling itself apart and its those periodic events that act as the countervailing force. That otherwise is not there. If that's true, who then we are naturally inclined towards pulling ourselves apart, so the house a media environment that makes money off.

Widening those divisions? which we do I mean I was in talk, radio and the end it. It has those people the people it used to scream at me cause I wouldn't do it, but I mean we had these terrible conversations after every broad, asked where I'd be in there with the programme director in their yelling at me, about heat heat was the worthy, create more heat where what is heat right, he's, division right and they want the heat not because they are political. They're. Not republicans are Democrats either there we want listener and we want to engage meant and involvement and because of the construction of the format, you don't have a lot of time to get it. So you can't have me giving you like on a podcast an hour and a half or two hours, where we build a logical, give it and you're with me the whole way your audience changing every fifteen minutes. So whatever points you make to create interest and intrigue and engagement have to be major right now things, they told me

once the audience has to know where you stand on every single issue within five minutes, running on your show. In other words, you have to be part of it I a linear set of political beliefs so that, if you feel a about subject, a then you must feel d about such a deal. I don't even need to hear your opinion on it, because if you feel that way about a you are going to feel that way about d. This is a system that is designed to pull us apart for profit, but not because they want to pull us apart right, it's a by product of the prophet That's one little example of of fifty. Samples in our society that work in that same fashion. So what the price, for a new american century document was saying- is that we are now surely inclined towards disunity and without things too patiently ratchet the unity back up again, so that we can start

the baseline again and then pull ourselves: a partial, the next pearl harbor that you pull yourself a part which I think was think that's what the george Friedman was saying that I disagree with so much at the time. So in answer to your question about civil wars, we can't have the same kind of civil war because we don't have a geographical division. That is clear cut as the one we had before how to basically north south line in some border states. It was set up for that kind of split now, divided within communities within families with gerrymandered voting districts and precincts right? So you can? at disengage, we're stuck with each other, there's a civil war now for lack of a better word might seem like is the late nineteen sixty. Surely seventies, where you had the bombings and you don't. Let's call it domestic terrorism and things like that, because that that would seem to be

something that once again, you don't even need a large chunk of the country pulling apart. Ten percent of people who think it It's the end times can do the damage just like we talked about terrorism before and I can gas and a big, lighter. I've lived in a bunch of places I won't give anybody ideas were: can a gas in a big lighter would take a thousand houses down before you could blink right that terrorist doesn't have to be from the middle he doesn't have to have some sort of a fundamentalist religious agenda, it could just be somebody really pissed off about the election results. So once again, if we're playing an odds game here, everybody has to behave for this to work right. Only a few people have to behave for this thing to go sideways and remember for every action. There is an equal and opposite reaction, so you don't even have to have those people doing all these things. All they have to do is start the fire,

retribution cycle and there's an escalation. Yes and it go, and it creates a momentum of its own, which leads fundamentally, if you follow the chain of events down there to some form of dictatorial government as the only way to create stability right, you want to destroy the republic and have a dictator, that's how you do and they're a pair, well to nazi germany. The burning of the right start, blah blah blah I'm the doom, castor again and some of it could be manufactured by those seeking a third party the reichstag fire was or the pole the soldiers that fired over the border worthy invasion in nineteen, thirty, nine to fight the devil's advocate with an angel's advocates, I would say just as our cars isn't about iran if using individuals have power to unite us stoop to be that force of unity So you mentioned the media, I think you're one of the great part in history.

european is no like along. or whatever, it is not by casting it's actually. Whatever the area, infrequent is what it is of, no matter what it but the basic process of it. Is you go deep in you, stay deep, and the listener stays with you for a long time. So I just looking at the numbers neck aware Almost three hours in a from previous efforts, I can tell you that about three hundred thousand people are still listening to the sound of our voice. Three hours in so easily, one three hundred to five hundred thousand people listen and they drag relations by the way, I wonder,

and your rogan is more like ten times that, and so he has power to unite. I you have power to night, there's a few people with voices that it feels like their power to unite, even if you, if you could call endorse a carriage and so on there still. It feels to me that. Speaking of I don't wanna, keep saying love, but it's love, and maybe unity more practically speaking, that sanity that, like respect for those, you don't agree with I don't understand so. Empathy were just a few voices of those can help us avoid the really important not avoid diesel

Www events, like you, said of somebody starting a fire and so on, but avoid the escalation of it. The preparedness of the populace to escalate those events that to to to turn a singular event and sing, a riot shooting or like even something much more romantic than that to turn that into something that creates a ripples they grow as opposed the ripples that fade away and so like. I would like to put responsibly answer me, like you and me, in some small way and Joe being cognisant of the fact that a lot of very destructive things might happen in november, and a few voices can save us is the? feeling I have now by saying we should vote for or any of that kind of stuff, but really bye. Bye

the the voice of calm, that like coms, the the seas from or whatever? The analogy is from boiling up, because I I, too, am worried about. This is the first time this year, when I I times. I somehow have felt that the american project will go on forever. But when I came to this country I just believed- and I think I'm young like you know, I have a dream of creating a company I will do a lot of good for the world and I thought the americas, the beacon of hope, the world in the areas of freedom but ass. The idea of empowering companies that can do some good for the world, and just worried about this america that filled me, a kid became from family came from nothing

and from russia is it was so be. It was to be able to do anything in this new country. I'm just worried about any feels like a few people can still keep this project going like the people you on people like Joe. is there, you have a bit of that hope, I'm watching this experiment with social media, What I mean new social me really expand that out to on me. I feel like we're all guinea. Pigs right now, watching you know, have two kids and in just watching and there's a three year space between the two of them one's eighteen, the other's fifteen, and just you know in when I was a kid. A person who was eighteen and fifteen would not be. that different just three years difference more maturities but their life experiences. You would easily classified those too

people as being in the same generation. Now because of the speed of technological change. There is a vast difference between my eighteen years. to my fifteen year olds in and not in the maturity question just in what apps they use, how they relate to each other, how they deal with their peers, other social skills those kinds of things we you turn around and go. This is in charted territory. We've never been here, so it's going to be interesting to see what effect that has on society. Now, as that relates to your question, the most upsetting. hard about all that is reading how people treat each other on line- and you know there's lots of theories about this. The fact that some of it is four trolling, lasted some of it is just people are not interacting face to face with a free free treat each other that way and I, of course I'm trying to figure out how how If this is how we have always been as people right, we ve always been this way. Will we ve never had the means to post our feelings publicly about it,

or if the environment and the social media and everything else has provided a change and changed us into something else. either way when one reads how we treat one another and the horrible things, we say about one another on line which seems it shouldn't be that big deal just words, but they have a cumulative fact mean when you are Is reading and or megan Markle or who I don't know a lot about cause? It's it's too much of the pop side of culture for me to but I read a story the day when she was talking about the abuse she took on line and how incredibly overwhelmed it wasn't how many people were doing it and you think to yourself. Ok, this is something that people who were in positions of what you were discussing earlier, never had to deal with. Let me ask you something and boy: this is the ultimate doom, castor thing of all time to say

when you think of historical figures that push things like love and peace and on an end, creating bridges between enemies when you think of how what happened to those people First of all, there very dangerous, if society in the world has a better time easier time dealing with violence and things like that than they do nonviolence nonviolence is really difficult for governments to deal with, for example, what happens to gandhi and Jesus and martin luther king, and you think about all those people right when there that day, it is its ironic. Isn't that these people who push for peaceful solutions are so often killed, but it's because their effective and when their killed the effectiveness is diminished. Why are they killed because their effective and end the only way to stop them is to eliminate them because their careers, matic leaders,

who don't come around every day and if you eliminate them from the scene, the odds are you're, not gonna get another one for a while. I guess what I'm saying. The very things you're talking about which would have the effect you think it would rightly destabilize systems in a way that most of us would consider positive, but those systems have a way of protecting themselves, riding at and so I feel like history shows? The history is pretty pessimistic, I think by and large, if only because we can find so many examples that just sound passive, but I feel like people who are dangerous to the wave. things are tend to be removed. Yes, but this two things to say, I feel like you're right that history. I feel, like the ripples that love leaves in history.

we are less obvious, detect bar actually more transformational like anyone could make a case about. I mean if you want to talk about the the long term, value of it Jesus or gandhi. Yet, yes, those people's ripples are still affecting people. Today I agree and that's you feel those Ripples through the general improvement of the quality of life that we see in it Are the generations like the you feel? The report still go along with you that, but I would even if that's not true, I I believe that and by the way that the company that working on is a competitor is, zack attack in this, which is a computer, twitter. I think I can build a better twitter as a first step is a long story in there. I think a three year old child could build said that this is not to denigrate you. Sure years will be better that every rough, but twitter is itself and listened facebook to their there really awful platforms for intellectual discussion and meaningful

but when I'm on it, so let me just say I'm part of the problem or new to this, so that it was an obvious at the time had a real, it's now degree and now a three year old. Can I do. I and believe that we in a time where the tools that people that aren't you did in providing love like look the weapons of love, a much more powerful so egg The one nice thing about technology is it allows anyone to build a company, that's more powerful than any government, so could be very destructive, but it could be, it's a very positive and that's it, I believe that somebody like you was too good for the world somebody like me, and many like me could have more our that anyone government to work. and by power mean the power to effect. Change which is different from gone with government- and I don't mean to interrupt you but I'll forget my train of thought- gets old and I mean how do you deal with the fact that

ready governments who are afraid of this, our walling off their own internet systems as a way to create firewalls. Simply to prevent you from doing what you're talking about the words. If it is the old line, the devoting really changed anything they'd never allow it give if love through it. Modern day successor to twitter would really do What you wanted to do, and this would destabilize governments. Do you think the governments would, would take counter measures to squash that love before it got too dangerous. There are several answers. One first of all, I don't actually to push That being said earlier, I dont think love is as much of an enemy of the state, as as one would think different states have different views. I I think this states want power and I don't always think that love is in tension with power. Make, I think,

and then I think it's not just about love. It's about. Irrationalities reason is empathy all of those things. don't necessarily think they're always have to be by definition in conflict with each other. So that's one senses I feel like. Basically, you can trojan horses into it behind behind, but you have to be good at it. This is the thing you have to be conscious of the way these states think so the fact that china ban certain services, and so on that means the the companies work, eloquent, whoever the companies are weren't actually good at infiltrating, like I think. Isn't a song like love is a battlefield. I think it at all a cat benatar here he saw a game and you have to be good at the gate. And just like ilan, he said you know what tesla

and saving environment? That's not just by getting station. Saying it's important to save the environment is by building a product that people can't help but love and then convincing hollywood stars the lower, I give this there's a game to be played. Ok, so let me let me build on that, because I think there's a way to see this. I think you're right, and so it has to do with a story about the nineteen sixties. In the vast scheme of things, the nineteen sixties looks like a revival of neo romantic ideas right had a buddy of mine several years, while two decades older than I was who was a the sixties, went to the protest, it all those kind of things and we were talking about it and I was romanticizing it and he said: don't romanticize it, because let me tell you most of the people that went to those protests and did all those things,

all they were. There was to meet girls and have a good time, and you know it was it wasn't so, but it became invoke to have all. In other words, let's talk about your empathy and love You're, never gonna, in my opinion, grab that great mass of people that are only enough for them their interest in whatever way, but if meeting girls for a young teenage guy requires you to feign. Empathy requires you to read deeper subjects, because that's what people are into you can almost as as a silly way to be trendy. You can make, may be empathy, trending, love, trendy solutions that that are the opposite of that and have the kind of things that people inherently will not put up.

With. In other words, the possibility exists to change the Zeit. Geiss and reorient is in a way that even if most of the people aren't serious about it, the results are the same does not make sense. Abu, ok, Ok, so we ve found a meeting of the money, will meet the agora, creating upgrading incentives that encourage the best and most before asked grace of handling our will continue Our boils down to meeting girls and boys once again you're getting to the bottom, the evolutionary motivations and they are always unsafe, crowned gonna give you that this is a little difficult for me of yeah and I'm sure it's actually difficult for you to listen to me said complementing you, but it is difficult for both as a get so but you know you and I, as I mentioned to you, I think of mike- been friends for long. I'm just been one way. Besides,

okay now from this today, still I now so like that's the beauty of a passing it on me. Now just been fortunate enough with this particular package that I see people's eyes when they meet me that they have been friends with me for for a few years now and in we become fast transaction after we start fucking a but is one way in the vat and now first moment like there's something about this pretty hard core history. That You know I do some crazy challenges and running stuff. I remember in particular, we don't have time when my favorite episodes the painful attainment. One people because it's to reaffirm its by darkest when we wanted to set a baseline. That debate life, but I remember seeing to that and when I ran the twain two miles from you as long distance- and I have asked me to tame it right here

You just pause you in there there's something so powerful about this particular if the creation that's bigger than you actually that you've created is kind of interesting, I think anything that is successful like that, like the lawn stuff to it becomes bigger than you and that's that's. What you're, hoping for ryan absolutely didn't mean to interrupt your photos. I guess one a question I have if you look in the mirror and but you also look at me, what advice would you give yourself and to me and to other podcasters de jure rogan about this journey? There were on, I feel like it's something spent I'm not sure exactly what's happening, but it feels like podcasting especial what advice and am relatively new to it. What advice you have four:

for people they're carrying this flame and travelling this journey. Well, I am often asked for advice by newport podcasters people just starting out, and so I have sort of a tree and true list of dues and dancing and but but I have have advice or suggestions for you or for Joe Joe, doesn't need anything for me. Just figured it out right a me hasn't near. He still confuse kid curious about the world rights, but that's the genius of it. That's what makes it work right. That's what that's! What was brand is right. I guess what I'm saying is that by the time he reached the stage that europe, or jos admiral. They don't need it that they have figured this out. The people that sometimes need help I knew people trying to figure out. What do I do with my first show and how do I talking to them and and I've standard answers for that, but you found your niche, I mean you don't need me to tell

what to do. As a matter of fact, I might ask you questions about how you do what rife. Well, I guess there's specific things that good word talk, a fine about money decision does not fast anyone very difficult as an independent, and one of the things that Joe is facing with a few paying attention, but he joined spotify The hundred million dollar deal for going exclusive on their platform. The idea of exclusivity that one I don't give a damn about money personally, but I'm singles out, late like living a shady place, so I enjoy outside this makes it easier. at the freedom right now you don't area freedom. Materials is slate saving anybody's college exact. Now, ok, so on that point, but I also ok, maybe a romantic

nation, but I feel like podcasting is pirate radio and when I first heard by spotify pardoning up upper jaw outside you know Like the man I said I had eva, I drafted a futile its and so I just like the attacking spotify than I call myself down that you can't lock up there. special thing. We have but then I realized that may be that diesel vehicles forges reach more people and actual respecting podcast, there's more and so on. So that's why, by its unclear what the journey is, because you also serve as beacon for now there's like millions, one million plus part at I I wonder what the journey is. Do you ever sense? Are you at romantic in the same kind of way and in feeling that, because you have a roots in radio

Do you feel that pakistan is pirate radio, or is this spotify thing one person, oh avenue, are you nervous about Joe s affairs, and of Joe Or is this was a good thing for us, so my history of how I got involved in podcasting is interesting s eye. I was in radio and then started a company back in that the era where the dot com boom was. Winning and everybody is being bought up in it just seemed like a great idea. Right start, I did, it was seven other six. Other people and the whole goal of the company was we had. We had to invent the term, I'm sure everybody there's other places that invented it. At the same time, the what we were pitching to investors with something called amateur contents and as before, you too, before podcasting before all this stuff, and I my job was to be the evangelist and I would go to these people and talk and sing. The praises

of all the ways that amateur content was gonna be great and I never got a bite and they all told me the same thing. This isn't gonna take off cause any body, whose good is already could be making money at this, and I kept saying forget that we're talking about scale here, if you have millions of pieces of content being made every week, a small percentage, to be good, no matter what right sixteen year olds will know what other sixteen year old like him. I keep pushing this nobody bit, but the podcast grew out of that because in if you're talking about amateur content in ninety. Ninety nine were then you're already we're in europe the game in terms of of not seeing where it's gonna go financially, but seeing where it's going to go technologically, and so when we started the pod in two thousand and five and with the political will not hardcore history, which was an outgrowth of the old radio show, and we didn't have any financial ideas we were

we trying to get our handle on the technology and how you distributed to people. In the end, it was years later that we tried to figure out okay. How can we get enough money to just support us while we're doing this and and the cheap and the easy way with two asked listeners to donate like him, he kind of model, and that was was- regional model. So well, then, once we started down that we figured out other models and that advertising thing and that we sell the old shows, and so all these became ways for us to support ourselves and but, as as podcasting mature word and as more operating systems developed, an phones were developed in all the kinds of things every one of those developments which actually it easier for people to get the podcast actually made it more complex to make money off of them so all our audience was building the amount of time and effort we had to put into the monitors asian side began to skyrocket. So to get back to your speech

if question to use just one example, there's a lot of people who are doing similar things. In this day and age in a we used to sell m p three files and all you had to have- was an m p: three players cheap and dirty. Now, every there's an o s upgrade something breaks for us. The way having a mean, my choices are, at this point to start hiring staff, more staff in people's lives and then be a human right sources manager mean the pirate radio cited. This was the pirate radio cited. Because you didn't need anybody, but you were you in another, I mean you could just do this lean and mean and that it's becoming hard to do it lean and mean now. So, if somebody like a spotify comes in and says hey, I'm will handle that stuff for you in the past. I would just say: f off. We don't need yeah. I don't mind, and I I definitely am not making what we could make on this, but what we would have to do to make that is honoris to me, but it's becoming onerous to me day to day anyway, and so if somebody were to come in and say

hey hey or will pick that up for you. We will not interfere with your content at all. We won't, and in my case you can't say we need a show a month cause that ain't happening right. So I mean everybody's everybody's design is different right, so it doesn't, you know, there's not one size fits all, but as a long time, pirate pod, castor thereof in a weapon looking to partner with people, but nobody's right for us to partner with me. So so, I am always looking for ways to take that side of it off my plate. Cause I'm not interested in that sign. All I want to do is to shows, and they would have its really at this point you shouldn't call you often artist, because somebody about something decided by, but I mean we're trying to do art and there's something very satisfying in that. But the part that I can't stand is the ink recent amount of time the monitors asia question takes on us, and so there's a case

We made, I guess what I'm saying that if a partnership with some outside firm, handsome your ability to do the art without this enhancing your ability to do the art it's on the word I'm looking for here is it's it's it's enticing this. Ah, I dont like big companies, so I'm afraid of of whatever string might come with that and if I'm Joe rogan and I'm talkin about subjects that can make company public companies, you know a little nervous, I would certainly be careful, but at the same time people who are not in this game. Don't understand the problems that literal I mean just all the operating systems, all the pod catchers every time some new pop catcher comes out, makes it easier to get the podcast. That's something we have to account for. On the back end- and I am not exactly the technological wizard of all time, so

I think it is maybe maybe the short answer is- is that as the medium develops its becoming something that you have to consider because you want to sell out, but because you want to keep going yet is becoming harder and harder to be. Pirate like in this invite would. The thing that convinced me, especially is inside, says spotify. Is that they understand. So, if you walk into this whole thing was some scepticism as your saying, a big companies than then it works because spot a finer stands the magic that makes by casting they appear to in part at least they understand enough to rest. Actual rogan, despite what I don't know, if you are so there's the internet people with opinions on the internet. Really, yes, and they have about joe and spotify, but the reality is is two things in private conversation with Joe,

and, in general, with the two important things, one spotify literally doesn't tell joy anything like all the people who think they d. the spot! If I somehow pushing Joe in this direction, I trash what they did in guinea noticed upon. I signed the contract that also you know come these have a way of even with the contrast sure, due to being a marking people. hey. I know we're not forced to yeah yeah yeah. You can have that yeah, but john with you. It was you you're the same end spotify smart enough not to send a single email of that kind. It's really smart and they believe they leave him be. There is meetings, as I spotify, that, like people read about those able complain, Those meetings never reached Joe, that that never that's a company stuff and the idea that that spotify is different than pirate radio. The the difficult thing about pact Nothing is nobody, gives a demo by your pack. Yes, you're alone in this menace fans

but nobody is looking out for you again and the nice thing more spotify is they want Jonah group chose guess succeed even more that's what you're talking about is the difference between youtube spotify spot of our wants to be the netflix of purchasing and they were like what netflix does. Is they they they dont want to control you in any way, but they want to create a platform where you can flourish. Even your interests are aligned interests through. Let me bring up. Let me bring up something that that let's make a distinction, because not all companies who do this are the same. You brought up youtube spotify, but but to me you tube is at least more like spotify than some of these smaller are. The term is walled garden right. You ve heard the term yells gardening so and I've been around podcasting so long now that I've seen rounds of consolidation over the years and they come in waves and all of a sudden, so you'll get and I'm not going to mention any names. But

but, up until recently, the consolidation was happening with relatively small firms compared to people like spotify, and the problem was that by deciding to consolidate europe cereals in a walled garden. You, walling yourself off from audience right, I'm so you choices. I'm going to accept this amount of money from this company, but the loss is going to be a large chunk of my audience and that's a catch twenty two, because you're negotiating power with that companies based on your audience size so signing up diminishes, your audience. You lose negotiated our, but when you get to the level of the spot, if I too just pick them out, there's other players, but you brought a spot. If I specifically, these are people who can potentially potential enhance your audience overtime, and so the risk to you is lower because if you decide in a year or two, whatever the licensing agreements term, is that your d with the men you wanna leave, instead of how you would have been with some of these smaller walled garden.

where you're walking away with a fraction of the audience you walked in with you, have the potential to walk out with, Whatever you got in the original deal, plus a larger audience, because their algorithms and everything are designed to push people to yours content. If they think you look so It takes away some of the downside risks which which alleviates and if you can write in agreement like Joe rogan, I mean where you've protected your your freedom to to put the content out. The way you want so in some of the downside risk is mitigated, And if you will the the problem of trying to and stay up with the latest tech? Then it might be worth it. You know, I'm scared of things like that, but at the same time I'm trying to not be idiot about it and I can be an idiot about it and when you ve been doing it as independent for as long as I have the inertia of that has a force all its own, but I'm I'm I'm

inhibited and nothing. What I'm trying to do on this other end that its opened me at all, to listening to people, but I'm illicit. At the same time, I love my audience and it sounds like a queen. Hey, but their literally. The reason, I'm here, sir I want to make sure that whatever I do, if I can, is in keeping with a relationship that I've developed for these people over fifteen years but like you said no matter what you do. You are good because see. Here's the thing, if you don't sign up with one of those companies to make it easier for them to get your stuff. On this hand, they might yell at you for difficulties because the new or where the new have been operating system just updated, and I can't you just eat. Way your opening yourself up to ridicule at this point. All of that makes it easier to go well. If the right deal came along, screw and merely words grew my audience of lower, you know again in this business. When you're talking about cutting edge technology, that is ever

aging and, as you said, a million podcasting growing. I think you have to try to maintain flexibility and especially if they can mitigate the downside risks. I think you have to, I think, you'd be an idiot to not at least try to stay up on the current trends and look I'm watching Joe I'm going. Okay, let's see how it goes for Joe Hogan. If, if, if he's like, this is terrible, I'm getting out of this, you go okay. Those people are so jos. Jos, put them That is a guinea pig and the rest of us. It. Guinea pigs appreciate as a huge as end of the year shows and as a fan of netflix, though the people there. I think I can speak for like millions of people in the hope that harcourt history comes the netflix or spotify becomes the netflix, a pike as in a despotic fight, there's something at his best that they bring out the.

You said artists, so I could say it is they bring out the best out of the artists they they remove, some of the headache and somehow like they, they put at their best networks, for example, is able to enforce and find the best duty and the power in the creations that you make even better than you like. They don't interfere with the creations, but they somehow it's a branding thing probably interfering would be. That would be a no go for me. That's right absolutely with a that can't help, but that's why netflix is masterful they they seem to not interfere with the talent, as opposed to saw other people under the bus. I have a lot of places under his watch can be through absolutely so I would love. I know there's probably people screaming yes right now in terms of hardcore history and netflix would be awesome, and I don't love asking this question, but it's

asked probably the most popular question, that's unanswerable, so let me try to asked in a way that you would actually answered, which is, of course, you said you don't really shows very often and others, that the question is the requests and the question is: what can you tell them? the one on the civil war in you tell to do one on the pauline bonaparte gate tell the due on the earth ever every topping. You spoken to this. Actually, your answer, but the civil war is quite interesting I didn't do it might answer, but the civil? What that that you, don't you as a military historian, you enjoy in particular when there is different as in the armies, is applying the rust contrasts. As with a civil war which they blew my mind, when I heard you say, is you there's not an interesting, a deep intricate com, asked between the two opposing cited roma civil wars, which legion arrogance, legionnaires is, and you also said that, Canada shows you work on our one,

Were you have some routes of fundamental understood, nothing about that period in and so like you, when you work in a show, is basically a pulling at those strings further and like refreshing your mind and learning whatever leaves on the research. While these, like words out of my mouth, you write a so, but is there something like like shower thoughts on read? It There are some ideas Lingering your head about possible future episodes, the things that whether you not committing to anything but What are you gonna? Do it or not? Is there something that makes you think they'll be interesting to us? to pull at that thread a little bit. Oh yeah, I we have things. We keep our back pocket for later, so blueprint armageddon, the first world war series we did, that was in my back pocket the whole time and when the centennial of the war happened just seem to be the likely time too

bring out what was that was a hell of a series and thus probably one of my favorites of my rear end man. I have to test cycle Logically, me aren't you know when you get to these. I think I'm guessing here. I think it's twenty six hours all pieces together think about an end. We don't do scripts, its improvised near to think of What what I had somebody right on twitter just yesterday saying I'm I'm quoting said something like I'm not, the dedication here, you're only getting two point. Five shows how to you- and I wanted to say man. You have no idea. What did the only people who understand really are other history pot castles and and they don't generally do twenty six hours of you know that was too. Your endeavour, as I said the first show we ever did- was like fifteen minutes. I could crank out one of those a month. but when you're doing mean the last show we did on the fall of the roman republic was five and a half hours. That's a book right arm and its parts. experts, something so maybe you just do the math and fella yours. I too

after and on world. What were one like you were emotionally pulled in to it like it felt taxing as if that's a good thing, though, because that you know- and I think we said during the show that was the feeling- that the people at the time been, I think, At one point we said it. This is starting to seem gruesomely, repetitive now. You know how the people at the time felt so in other words that had any sort of Advertising has meaning improvise a show. Some of these things are inadvertent, but it is inadvertently created the right climate for were having a sense of empathy with the story lying to me. those: are the serendipitous moments that make this art and not some sort of paint by the number kind of endeavour. You know and that's to me that wouldn't have happened. Had we scripted it out. So mostly aegis- bring the tools of knowledge to the table and then in large part,

improvised, like the actual wording. I we say we make it like they made things like spinal tap and some of those other things where the material said. So I do have notes about things like on page four. Twenty seven of this book You have this so that I know a high at the point where I can drop that in and sometimes all right note saying, Here's where you left off yesterday saw I remember, but in the end proposition you end up, thrown a lot out and so like like, but it allows us to go off on tangents like will try things like I'll sit there and go my wonder what this would sound like an I'll spent two days going down, that road and then I'll, listen to it doesn't work. But that's you know, like writers. Do this all the time it's called killing your babies right, you can't get now but people goes to this guy goes: I'm not seeing the dedication. He has no idea how many things were thrown out an hour and a half.

I had an hour and a half in the current show about two months ago, and I listened to and I just went in a one: it's not right boom out the window. There goes six weeks of work, the right, but here's the problem. You trust your site to interrupt. You, trust your judgment and that no no, but but here's, here's the here's, the thing our shows a little different than other people's Joe rogan called it s. Green content. In other words, my political show is like a car you buy by the minute. You drive it off the lot. It loses half its value, rikers, it's not current any these shows are just as good or just as bad five years from now they are when we? U, although the standards on the internet changed when I listen to my old shows, I cringe sometimes because the standards so much higher now, but we creating evergreen content. You have to audiences to worry about. You have the audience, that's why?

for the next show, and I have already heard the other ones in their impatient and they're telling you on twitter, whereas it, but you have shown the shows, also for people five years from now who, having discovered it yet and who dont care a whit for how long it took cause they're gonna, be able to download the whole and all they care about his quality, and so what I always tell new podcast uses, they always say I read all these things are very important to have a could do really schedule, what's not more important than putting out a good piece of work, work and the audience will forgive me if it takes too long, but it's really good. When you get it, they will not Forgive me if I rushed to get it out on time and it's a piece of crap so for us- and this is why we brought up a spot of ideal or anything else. They can't interfere with this at all, because my my job here as far as I'm concerned is quality and everything else goes by the wayside, because the only thing people care about long term. The only thing that gives you longevity is how good is right. How good is that book? If you re J r tokens work tomorrow, you don't care how long it took him to write it.

Who cares? How good, as is today and that's what we try to think too, and I feel like if it's good, if it's really good everything else, falls into place and take care of itself, and although some to push back cited in Toronto. I've done a few thousand times and you could give me back fleet the sometimes the deadline. You know. some of the greatest, like movies and books have been he's a good guy? Does he s got forget which one not from underground or something he needed the money? So he had to write a real, quick, sometimes the dead creates, is powerful at taking them the creative mind of an artist and just like slapping it around to force some of the good stuff out now. The problem with history, of course, is there's, there's different definitions of good and that, like it's, not just about which you talk about which is story telling the richness of the storytelling and I'm sure you're again not to compromise

too much? But you are one of the great storytellers of our time that that I'm sure, if you put in a jail cell and forced a like somebody, pointed a gun at you, you could tell one hell of a good story, but you still need the facts of history at all. In the say, the facts, but you know like making sure you painting the rightful picture, not perfect, right, that's what I meant about the audience doesn't understand what a history podcast you can't just riff and and be wrong. So so let me let me both both oppose what you just said and backup what you just accident. So I have a book that I wrote right and I and in a book you have a hard deadline right, so harper collins had a hard deadline on that book. So when I released it, I was mad because I would have worked on it. A lot longer, which is my style right, get it right, but we had a chapter in that book. Entitled pandemic prologue question mark and it was the book about the.

the part about the black death in the nineteen eighteen flew and all that kind of stuff, and- and I was just doing an interview with a spanish journalist this morning, who said: did you ever think how? Hey you got on that on that do not add up for small lucky on a pandemic. It did strike you, but had I had. My brother's eye would have kept that book working in my study from months more and the pandemic would have happened and that was at that would have looked like a chapter. I wrote after the fact I would have had to rewrite the whole thing would have been so that argues for for what you said. At the same time, I would have spent months more working on it because to me it didn't look the way I wanted it to look yet you know. Can you draw a hint of the things you keeping on the shelves for the alexander, the great I've, talked round the very day. I I talked to somebody that I used to do. You know that the very first word in your very first podcast in the title. The very first thing that anybody ever saw with hardcore history is the tour. Is the word out.

zander, and because the chosen title alexander versus hitler, I have talked around the tree, I've done show after I talked about his mother. In one episode I talked about the the the the funeral games after his death. I've talked around this specific. let this giant alexandrian size hole in the middle, because we're going to do that. So one day I'm going to lovingly enjoy talking about this crazily interesting figure of Alexander the great. So that's one of the ones that on the back pocket list and what we try to do is is whenever the we're doing second world war in asia and the pacific. Now I'm on part five, whenever the heck we finish this, the tendency is to then pick a very different period because we ve had it and the audience is headed. So it's time. So I will eventually get to the alexander saga. What about just one last comment: A part of this is what about the other half of that first, ten minute, fifteen minute episode, which is so you ve done

quite a bit about the world war is done quite a bit about germany. Will you ever think about doing hitler? The man it's funny, because I thought We were high dont like to go back to the old shows cause our standards have changed. So much will a long time ago, one of my standards for not getting five hour pod. Done or or not getting too deeply into them? Was too flit around the edge two points where we didn't realize we were gonna, get an audience that wanted the actual history. We thought we could just go with. Assume the audience, knew the details and just talk about the weird stuff that only makes up one part of the show now, so we did a show called nazi tidbits and it was just little things about it. It's totally out of date. Now, like you know, you can still buy them but they're out of date and where we dealt a little with it or you know it would be interesting, but I'll give you another example. I mean history is not stagnant, as you know,

oh and we talked about Stalin earlier and a ghost of the oss was done years ago, and people were right me from sure now and say we're portrayal of style It is totally out of the out of its outcome because there's all this new stuff from the former soviet union and you do? U turn you go ok on the right And so when you talk about hitler, it's very We to think about how I would do a hitler showed a day versus how I did one ten years ago and you would think well what's new. I mean it happens along, but there's lots of new stuff and there's lots of scholarship and and so on, yeah I would think that would be interesting one to do someday. I haven't thought about that: that's dawn in the back pocket, but but yet at a disproportionate amount of power because a trap you somehow in the room thereby ensuring a pandemic jirga pandemic say, like my hope, will be stuck in your head. But after out

guy, which would be an amazing bike as a I hope you do consider giver returned to hitler, rise and fall. The third reich which to me I really temporary book basic yeah. You and I do exactly is by person who was their share. I really love that study of the men of hitler. I would like to hear your study of certain aspects of it. I bet perhaps even an episode that is more folks and a very particular period. I just feel like you, can now tell a story It's funny. Hitler's one of the most study. People still feel like this to all the stories The stories have mental tall and there's listen. I've got three books at home among all the publishers lists now they just if young.

Look! There's this hitler! There's that I mean I've been reading these books and I've read about hitler. I read the rise and fall of third reich. My mother thought I needed to go to a psychologist. I read it when I was six and she said: there's something wrong with the boy, but but But she's right like a question, is absolutely right, but you would think that that something like that is pretty established fact, and yet there is new stuff coming out all the time and, needless to say, germany's been estimating the sky forever in, and sometimes it takes years to get the translations. I took five years, a german in school. I can't read any of it so arm so I mean, and and and he is when you talk about fascinating figures, he so the whole thing is so twisted. Really weird. It was a a came out a couple years ago. Somebody founder tape of him talking to age. I won't say, was general on the finnish general mannheim right and an he's

in a very normal conversation of of the sort we're having now and renewed the hitler taped when you hear normally ranting waving, but this was a very sedate I wish I had understood the german well enough to really get to feel, because I was reading what german sadness it. While you can really here the southern acts. And you know it little things that only a native speaker would here- and I remember thinking this- is such a different side of this twisted character. Any would think you would always, you would think that this was information that was out in an inch in the rise and fall of the writer, but it wasn't- and so this is. This is a goes along, that stuff about new stuff coming out all the time alexander new stuff, coming out all the really well at least interpretations rather than factual and those color you're dead does give depth to you. understand. Yes, you and you want that, because under the historiographer people, people love that that was a by product of my lack of credentials, where we thought we're gonna bring

in the historians, we call them on audio footnotes right away. For me to say: listen, I'm not a historian, but I'll quote this guy. Who is so you can trust him, but then we would quote other people who had different views, and people didn't realize that that you know if they're, not history, majors, that historians don't always agree on the stuff and that they have disagreements and they loved that so so I'll. I love the fact that there's more step out there because it allows us to then bring in other points of view and sort of maybe three dimensional iser flesh out the story, a little bit more, To ask questions one really simple, one, absolutely ridiculous and perhaps also simple. First, who is Ben and see he real. I know you're talking about very well how's that for an answer, I can me his harvey. The white rabbit real. I dont know if carrots all around the product

room, but I don't know what that means. A lot of people demanded that I prove I somehow figure out a way to prove the existence. I said he was real but would say no he's not if I said he why, if he wasn't real, they would say. Yes, he is so it's santa claus, easter, bunny kind of vibe their yeah. I mean what is real anyway. That's exactly what I told him. Ok, the most absurd question on very say very sad, but think I'm not what is it what's the meaning of it all used, you study history of human history. Have you been able to make them So why the hell we're here on this spinning rock Well, it doesn't even even make sense what's the meaning of life hey. What I look at sometimes that I find interesting is certain consistencies that we have over time. Our history doesn't repeat, but it has a a constant

and the constant is us now. We change you had mentioned earlier. The though wickedly weird We live in with what social media is doing to us as guinea pigs in that's a new element, but we're still people who are motivated by love, hate greed, envy, saxon and all these things that would have connected us with the ancients right there the part that always makes history sound like it rhymes you know, and when you put the constant, the human element and you mix it with systems that similar to one of the reasons that the ancient roman republic is something that people point to all the time and, as a subject seems like we're repeating history, because you have the two can't you had humans just like you had then, and you have us system that resembles the one we have here, so you throw the constant in with, system that is somewhat similar and you begin to see things that look like they re a little.

So for me, I'm always trying to figure out more about us and when you show us in a fight hundred years ago in asia and eight hundred years ago in africa, and you look at all these different places that you put the guinea pig in and you watch how the guinea pig responds to the different stimuli and challenges I feel like it helps me flesh out a little bit more, who we are in the long time lie not who we are today specifically but who we ve always been on its personal quest, is not meant to educate anybody else. It's it's something that fast made me, do you think there is in that common humanity throughout history? The of the guinea pig Is there a why, underneath it all it somehow, like it, physical, an experiment of some sort, I earned it isla musket. I talked about this dissimulation thing right now. bathrooms sure that you, the idea that there is some some kid in with you

linda, been aliens, aunt farm. You know and We hope he doesn't throw a tarantula in just to see what happens, and I the wise elude us, and I think that what makes for ass a fee and religion and those sorts of things so interesting is that they grapple with the wise. But I'm not wise enough to two proposals. the theory myself, but I'm interested enough to read all the other ones out there. So I I, let's put it this way. I don't think there's any definitive why that's been agreed upon, but the various theories are fascinating. yeah whatever it is. Whoever the kid is that created this thing, the the ant farms kind of interesting. It's so far, a little bit a little bit twisted and perverted and sadistic methods as a fund. I think, but then again that's the russian perspective. I was just going to say so.

It is the russian president well a little bit is what makes the russian so he russian history one day I'll, do some russian history. I took at college whoa whoa whoa, that's the ant farm baby. That's an ant farm with a very, very frustrated young teenage, alien kid then I can't say I've already complimented you way too much, I'm a huge fan, this incredible conversations, a huge gift. I just give to humanity. I hope you, let me cut you off and just say, you've done a wonderful job. This has been fun for me, the questions and, more importantly, the questions can come from anybody. The counter statements, your responses have been wonderful. You made this a very fun intellectual discussion for me. Thank you. Let me have the last word and say: I agree with you on and despite the doom, castor say that I think with

included definitively, and you don't get a chance to respond. That love is in fact the answer and the way forward. So thanks so much to thank you for helping me thanks for listening to his conversation with Dan Carlin and thank you to our sponsors, athletic greens, the only one drink that I start every day with for all my nutritional bases, simply safe or home security company. I used to monitor and protect my apartment, magic spoon, low, carb, keto, friendly cereal that I think is delicious and finally, cash app. The app I used to send money to friends for food and drinks. Please check out the sponsors in the description to get discount and to support this podcast. If you enjoy this thing subscribe on youtube review it with five stars and up a podcast follow on spotify.

Support our patron or connect with me on twitter, Alex Friedman, and now let me leave you with some words from Dan carlin wisdom requires a flexible mind. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.