The following is a conversation with commander David favour, who was a navy policy for eighteen years and commander of the strike fighter squadron forty one also known as the black aces a squadron of twelve aeroplanes, consisting of several hundred people he's also famously one of the people who, with his own eyes, saw and chased? Are you a foe and identified flying object in two thousand, for that is referred to as the tick tack and the incident more formally referred to as the? U s s nimitz? You have fallen cedant, historic, corroborated by several other pilots. From my perspective, as a curious scientist and- and but minded human being is the most credible reading of a europhile in history. At least that I'm aware of he's a humble, fascinating and fun human being to talk to. I put out a call for questions on reddit and many other places and tried to ask as many of the questions that people posted

It could and overall I really enjoyed this conversation and I'm sure if the world wants us to and if there's more questions to be had we'll talk on this podcast again, quick summary of the sponsors, a flight of greens express, vpn and better help. Please check other sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast as a site. No, let me say that the world of your house and you a piece identified arrow phenomena and aliens in general- is foreign to me because of the high ratio of outlandish conspiracy theorist to actual hard evidence. I'm a scientist first and foremost, but an open minded one often looking at thinking outside the box, a muffin disheartened by the closed mindedness of the scientific community and in equal part on disheartened by the lack of

bigger and basic scientific inquiry and study on the part of the conspiracy theorists. I believe, there's a line somewhere between the two extremes that more inquisitive mines should walk. I we humans know very little about our world. What's up there among the stars? the nature of reality and the nature of our very own minds, the path or understanding can only be walked humbly very idea- that there is a possibility that David witnessed that piece of technology with a human made or alien made that moved in the way did should be inspiring to every scientist and engineer on the earth. There may be propulsion and energy systems yet to be discovered that once understood and mastered will put distant galaxies within reach of us human beings, paradigm shifts and science in leaps and understanding can only happen. I think if we open our eyes and allow ourselves to dream,

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by computers, when the real world outside is an impossible chaotic mess. I love pondering the puzzles in that book for months far away from human civilization anyway, checkout better help a better halt, dot com, slash lux, to get a discount and to support this podcast and now finally, here's my conversation. And what David favour your group you're outta, the navy fighter weapon school I am better known as top gun. He let me hear that we asked them to do your question. How realistic is the movie top gun is so it's funny raised a joke and I had a friend of mine who is a top gun instructor?

said is there's two things in the original top gun at her. True that are very realistic one. There is a place called top gun and number two. Is they do firemen? there other than you know. I, through in ninety seven class for ninety seven If there's actually a log of every single person, that's went through kind of like a seal training. You know, there's a list so people because there's a lot of posers out there. I was a navy seal named. While I went to top gun, you can actually go to top gun, in matter of fact, just to get a top gun patch. The real patch you have to have gone there So a lot of the patches you see runnin around or not real authors. The real ones are controlled the people it make em honour that and when you go and they look up your name, if you want to get one, they look up your name. You just tell em like ok here and also,

If you are not on the list, you ain't get no patch, because it is it's it's it's a pretty big deal to go through, but it's for me probably one of the best experiences of flying because everyone there is extremely competent. It's it's very. challenging. But it's what we all sign up to do. So it's just the entire group that is when you wanna be that you know that level, where you go, everyone really cares, and everyone really wants to be good- is a competitive

It's like it was in the movie or no it's when you go through it's. You know it's. If anything, it's more of the students, you know and then there's the instructor side. Then the instructor sides are really. You know the guys that you know they just chose to stay up and fallon and it's extremely difficult job because they have. They have a very small tolerance for not being good, so their brees, the guys when they give a lecture. So, let's just say, there's a fighter employment lecture, which is one of the hardest ones that takes about two days to give the fighter employment lecture and the guy who gives the lecture goes through multiple, what they call a murder boards where he scrutinized by his peers and he practices by the time they actually stand in front of a class. They pretty much have their two hundred and fifty powerpoint slides memorized, and they don't even turn around. They just click and they know them in order and they repeat the same thing,

over its in its standardized, so they are extremely extremely standardized. When you go to school, there's a reason for that, because what there Is there a training? So when you come on a top gun, you are called us. Further weapons and tactics, instructor casey s fdi when you come out of that, your job is to go use it you, one of the weapon schools on east or west coast and train the fleet squadrons an you visit, the squadrons and train into upgrade rise, and all that so there's a there's, a reason that they are extremely particular when you go to the court It's it. It is literally one of the best things and it's not it's not a rank based thing cause. Think old navy. You can come in as a you know like a and o for the tank commander, tenants the hierarchy, or at least to be. I don't know how it is exactly today, but I imagine it's the same. The hierarchy is actually based

seniority at the school, not necessarily ranks who wanted to see the tactical decisions are made which are based on fact and and trying things out in the fallon ranges. They set this the top x number of folks that a ban their seniority wise because- and I mean timewise are the ones that actually make the decision and when the door you may not agree, but when the door opened and everyone comes out from the staff, they all speak the same language, it and it has to be that way, which is why the school has been so effective since it has found it so it sister it's incredible group individuals, so that there is a bar of excellence that that the instructors demand are very much in their held to it. So it's not, I am now and instructors. I can do what I want it. There is a stir,

hundred and they have to live up to that standard. They have to- and I mean every moment of every day so if they go someplace, if they go from Fallon and they come down and do they're called site visits where they come down and they'll come to lemoore california, which is where the west coast fighter wing is at for the navy and they go around and start flying sorties with the fleet squadrons and to kind of pass on some of that knowledge. That's that same high level of standard. It's they can't just drop your guard. because you are the top gun patch and people know that than they were light blue shirt. So it's pretty easy to identify them when they're out there in a no and then everyone else, who's been through the school, including them have the patch on their sleeve. So there is a standard that is expected when you come out of there, so you're a navy pilot for eighteen years. Yes, can you briefly tell the story of your career as a pilot yeah, and so you know first I was in. I was enlisted as a marine and then the marines actually sent me recommended me to go to the naval academy

so it's always better to be lucky than good, but I gotta go to the naval academy and I finished and I've had that dream to fly. So when I got selected you've always dreamed of flying yeah. Since nineteen sixty nine, when I watched neil Armstrong, walk on the moon, was that at that point I asked my mom. I remember watching us from those just prior to the five and I said. I guess so: cool mom and she's well. You know you're all pilots and then at that point was like I'm gonna, be a pilot if you knew me growing up cause, I was a little bit of a delinquent. People are just like he. Alright, I used to joke I'm going to fly, I'm gonna fly jets and drop bombs

then, and if people are new iraqi, there be like tat and they be like I'm not a chance and then when I did actually had a funny story and I'll get to finish my career, but as yet my cousins wedding and we all group and say may read, but we cannot get dare to tell inside of the family. That's how he grew up. So my house, right down the street, my cousin, Chad and and right round the cor's, my cousin ray and my it's not going to stop the guy tutors now for me, and I was a paperboy in a neighborhood sale near me, and I went to my cousin's wedding in eaton and mr race looks at me. He says David forever. I go MR ray said he has. He fly jets top gun and all that ago is sir, he figured he'd be in jail by now.

Yeah, it was kind of a to me. It was a little bit of a badge of honor garner and I kind of overcame that. But would each be there to see you? I've heard you before and just now say that does but it'd be it's better to be lucky than good news. You talk modestly about the uh budgets being lucky, but if you were to describe your trajectory, may be in a way of advice like retrospectively. Ah ha how'd, you pull it off to be like to be truly especial person. The easiest way as one never never take. No, don't let anyone put down, and so you can't do it or those I mean I knew I knew what I was capable of inside you know and if I really believe, if you want something- and you want to do something, then you you can achieve it, not in all cases like

if I loved basketball- and I really wanted to be in the n b, a there's, a realism that says I'm five foot eight and I got like a really short vertical leap and I'm really not that good at basketball. we're not ever going to happen, no matter how hard I try and practice it's just the way it is or for me to be in the nfl, I'm not fast. You know I'm not that big it just physically, I'm incapable of doing that, but there's things that don't really tie to a true physical ability as far as size and strength. But it's it's mental her and I'm not saying you have to be a genius and super smart to be a fighter pilot matter of fact, you don't. It really comes down to the ability to think very quickly or eighty percent solution is typically good enough cause if you overthink it you're, you're behind and then in in an air to air fight. That's what happens. People try and overthink it and before you know it because it's happening so fast, you you don't have you can't get to the nth degree. You know six decimal places. Eighty percent solutions get an eyeful the early strong.

For the eighty percent solution. Just yeah, I'm a big believer data pronunciation left that if you get it over sound and go and then you can always adjust which Exactly what like, if you're, fighting and be affirm the apes and solution is it's like a chess game, but it's a really really fast chess game where you go, I'm doing this, and I know that if I do a maneuver, if he's going to counter it correctly, he should do a if he doesn't do a. He does some degree less like b c d and- and I know how bad his his errors, and then I capitalize. So my might I don't have to be perfect. You don't have to go. I need to go to forty seven degrees nose high. If I just kind of get above forty, then I'm good and I can watch over racks and I can adjust for that and you in you continually worked at problem and you chip away cause if you start neutral, you're, just basically chipping away and gaining, an advantage advantage to eventually you know in. If you really frightened, you know just guns only where quarter

where you gotta get behind the guy kind of world war, two dogfighting type stuff, and then it's it's literally. It's a it's a very, very fast chess game that happens at you know. Four hundred knots three hundred knots depends, though, to get to be one of the rare individuals that are able to do that. He just had the dream I didn't take no for an answer in our part of it is family. You know my dad was a. I scan fire ready aim guy. He did smack me in and me when I did wrong event, and then you know a joke, and and people look cause in at times it was kinda tough, you know cause he can be pretty demanding, but on the other side you know I probably needed to be reined in little bit at times, but then everyone else, my family, no, my mom was really awesome. When I was a kid, my my grandfather, who is a big big part of it, my mom's dad, who

he taught me a lot, and what will you have a questionnaire that we'll talk about about him but to a huge, huge influence, very, very positive and a lot of the stuff that I do today and decisions are based on things that he taught me when and I figured it was a first funeral ever went to, and it was this three miles. Long and church was over filling in people he's a beer delivery guy dead, serious and you go. There's someone asked who died. The pope so loud people love them so to back to my career, yad vashem, cause I'm getting down a radical. No when I was at the I was going to I was going to stay in the marines. I really wanted to go man. I love the corps. I think it sir services, it's that one everything is in a bar, very very professional- and it was a great great organism the joint, but I went out, the limits on my freshman crews after your freshman year it

they look at me go out on a ship and you beer and enlisted person you get to experience at half an airy wasn't must satisfy me because it comes up a lot. You I'm saying what the limits is. What a ship as though it, I guess so nemesis and aircraft carrier, so its foreign half acres of sovereign. U s territory floats around the, assertions, giant loading. Does it have weapons on it the air wing is really the weapons it does have defensive weapons, but for the most part it's a giant moving airport is wanted. So I was out there watching airplanes land and take off and, unlike like

the squadrons that were out there. One of the squatters was villa forty one and a fourteen squadron via forty four n, a fourteen squadron and a couple of a six squadrons, and we actually ended up part parent up and hanging out with some of the essex pilots and Bien. So it was really neat experience and I said I want to do that and the way to do it was to not to to go in the navy, because there are marine squadrons that go out to the aircraft carriers, but most of them are land based. You know to support the marines cause or that that you at that whole unit the unit marine corps at one surface as at all and none so when I graduated- and I got to a you know, I I worked hard through primary and nuts were in. I knew missy We were in the actually went through together, missy cummings. We want you, mary together and then I went to kings. Are we all selected the same time? I went kings rulers and was another guy scott. We admire the three of us I went to kings. Will Scott went to be veil and missy went to meridian, so the three of us that we had all went

We got we selected on primary together. We all ended up contracts than that's that, besides from school, I know at school to. long story I got done, got wing. They took me two years to the day. From the time I graduated than they look at me till I got my. Things and through some law I ended up getting a sixes on the west coast, which is a side by side bomber. So it's a pilot on the left sea and the bombing your navigators on right see it was built in the sixtys. It does all whether in flies low at night, it's got out terrain, mapping radar? How many, I guess, is that a good term to use fighter jets as a broad category for for the public yeah. That's probably how many fighter jets are. As I like that that was in the navy. That was the only one, the air force If one eleven was a side by side, but the navy was the a six and then there's the e, a six b, which is a derivative of

that now that those are all gone, the six piece just went away a few years ago and now that he eighteen g growler is the replacement for the a six b. There is never a replacement for the a six that I flew really became the f eighteen, which the essex could go quite a bit the further distance wise by fuel than the hornet and the horn as the. eighteen is they're usually to people in the plane, but their usual like in finance behind it. The modern two cedars yes, but most of the tactical airplanes in the world today are single seat since he's just one person, one person, with the exception of how pray someone will yell at me, but really, with the exception of the Ftt strike eagle and the f eighteen f super hornet, which is the f as a two seater, and the g is also two cedar, but it's more of electronic attack by say four

fighter bomber. So most of the time that you flown in here, then I guess at eighteen year, career is, was it to cedar as by half and half so I started off in a six was a two cedar. Then I went to a single seat, a fate, haynes, and I flew those all the way up until two thousand and and we think, two thousand and one to the end of two thousand and one and then I shifted over and started find the supermarkets and I flown both of those the ease and yes, but I deployed when I had command the forty one I had the to see they they were ass squadron. So you, actually ended up commanding the strike fighter squadron forty one Above the name, the black aces, what is there some parts of that?

journey. There are amazing parts of it that are tough, they kind of stand out to me. It was one it was a huge honour and I got to serve with the you know. I got pulled up because the the guy who the the people that are exo's, because we fleet up we go from the number two guy to the number one guy, so the xo becomes the ceo, so the executive officer becomes a commanding officer, so I had worked with the das soon to be vice, admiral white saw was the he was commander. I thought the time was the exile and he really want it because he knew there was a little bit of a problem when the super harnessed came into a more Lamar had been a single seat fighter community. Since the forever and allison you ve got the eighteen f come in, which has the weapon systems operators in the back, that are not pilots, their weapon systems operators and there is a difference

in kenya is a weapon systems operator and the kenny new. Because of my a six background that I have a switch that I can go once he to seat wants to see, because when you fly to see, there's a lot of stuff that the pilot will offload and take the advantages of the weapon systems operator, and it's not that one plus one equals too and that environment, because it really There is a huge amount of capabilities that the single seat has in the autonomy that comes for the ability to make decisions quickly and how well the airplane flies, but it does It does equal more than one and I would say that one plus one with two people as well. is a minimum of one point: five, because you ve got an extra head. You ve got extra eyes, you ve got someone can monitor systems. The aeroplanes can do two things at once. I mean there's an incredible amount of capability.

Add when we do that. Can we just pause for me from a like a human factors, perspective and awesome ai perspective? What's how difficult so there's like when there's two people there's also a third person as the hey. I part, though some level of automation like autopilot may be of great. Maybe you can come to talk about the psychology of lake. You said making decisions really quick. Eighty percent, How do you deal with another brain working with you and then also The automation is an interesting interplay. They get to learn, and also that change through your career. I imagine a garden again. Butter turns of automation or perhaps not, why can tell you so the little excited Finally stars and noticed this is good. This is good, and this is some mummy join us, because now we actually get to talk about something other than a tick taxes. So, let's start with ie eight

sixty. Eight six was really an analog airplane. There was built in the sixties. Right again there has been studies done on the crew coordination, which is the interaction between a pilot in the body or navigator. So we, would fly low at night in the mountains so that our station up and we'd be island washington. So you ve got the cascades an incredible amount of time and we would get in the simulators because, unlike normally people, think train following an earth, the raiders, the one eleven the b one has a system like this potential the radar, can see and it'll fly basically finds a straight line. So it goes up and over mountains and back down and up over mountains where the a six is really manual see do low level rout we're going to we're going to fly in the mountains at night, you're going be it in a five hundred to one thousand feet above the ground ribbon through like fog lairs, you dont need to see outside ear for your little

we've seen a little tv screen radar. What are you looking at most of the time suggest as a screen? It's this really primitive. If you look at it now, what we did you think, while it was crazy, but it was really fun. So it's similar to like the flare stuff is that is no. Are you serious thing? Is totally radar based, not airplane, had a fleer balls target recognition and multi centre was caught tram, media looking like basically like dots of hard object. These are actually what it is that the bombing or navigator had a radar and he was getting raw feed off a little pulse radar in front okay. So it's just basically mapping the mountains, If you look at a mountain on a radar you're coming up on it, the front side is, it's going to give you a really bright return and on the backside, it's just going to be a giant shadow, because you can't see, on the other side for the barber navigators will do that and we they would have charts and they could shade their charts. Knowing that have we turn a little bit left here. We can get this valley,

We can sneak up this valiant and go round the backside of the mountain, which is what the airplane would do and it incite interrupt among to interrupt and just keep asking dumb questions deposit. But the pilot can you uh hilo say what the pilot does versus the bomber and bombardier so you're a year. just control amp, I'm flying that. I have the throttles the stick and it's about it's about. Have four inch or six inch wide by maybe four inches five inches high. It looks like it's literally a crt. That's all it is a crt screen and what it would do at the I would do is the the pot the bombing your navigator is looking at his radar he's looking out about twelve and a half miles in front of airplane, so he has arranged really scope, dark red or conceal further. He

looking at about twelve and a half miles when we're in a terrain mode where we're dodge and mountains and stuff, and what the pilot has as there's they're called range bins. Then there's eight of them, so the very far range been as the twelve and a half mile that dino and the closest range bennets, a thing you know be like between. Like a half a mile and her a quarter mile to three quarters of a mile, the next one three quarters a mile to two miles, and then it just keeps going out like that. So There's a mountain of felicity, we're on a flat plain and there's a mountain out in the distance at fifteen miles, and we were just drive and right at it. So when we get to the point where it hits twelve and a half miles or the radar is going to see it on his scope, my twelve my range been for that would pop up in it would show like a big bump like a mountain and then, as I got closer to it. The next range men would pop and can show it, and I could see that that bump was moving towards me and then, if I turned a little bit, you know took over here. I'd see the mountain over to the right hand, side and I could do tat, but it wasn't like up

a video game it with its literally like, if you think, of the original tories air, but you that. I imagine that you start to get really deep sense of like the actual three three d environment based on that little authorities. It saw that you're exactly right and you have to have the trained so theres many studies america a lot of a the basis and people pray argue with me. But it's true there are studies done watching a six crews in our simulators, because the wist tat weapon systems, trainer then it was not even emotion, it just kind of sat there and he just you could fly these things. They had trained that they would inject into the system, but the crew coordination. So you get so my first

My first fleet bombardier navigator, who who's I'll name him. His name's Chris Saito he's a works at apple, a pretty high up, bro mit grad, think computer engineering. He does he's scary smart, so Chris could really work a matter of fact all the guys I flew so there's another guy matt, who also worked at apple who's out as a pi. We did our first night traps together. The on between us. I mean it's one of those things that you just dear you're, never forget. If we get but christen I when we start a flying together, we are actually a most junior crew in the squadron we I spent a lot of time, training and and and chris was amazing at how he could work the system one because he was extremely brilliant and he was to head the inquisitive mind of oh. We could do all these different things and there's all these aggregation modes, but we spend a lot of time to see how good we could actually get, because in its use you almost talk and partial so as to be an is looking at his rate, our scope, christmas

say, I've got rising terrain, that's what they say shown rising terrain at twelve miles and I'd see the little bump and I'd say got it. This is going to go to your question on the autonomy and how you work with two heads. Yes, so when you first get together the interaction, it's easy, it's it's almost like he. He have to rehearse that you to know- and you talk in full senses, the more and more we fly together Chris could go I'm showing- and he get like rising out and before he finished I'd, say I've got it so you and starting to talk and partials, because I have to trust him like I mean I think there can be no. I can have no doubt that he knows how to do his job

because I'm literally looking at this little scope. That is not giving me this continuous picture of that mount movie member the mountains here, and it's going to pop up here and- and it's going to pop up here, because there's gaps in the coverage on how the system was set up member, it's an analog system to where he is telling me like. I can't see all the way to the left and he he's got a wider scope on the radar, but my screen doesn't show that so he's told me start a left turn how to avoid the amount of hard turn. You know, and we would do that so MIKE is all happening, quick, very quick. While you do in a week we would typically fly between four hundred and twenty. Four hundred eighty knots of drowns me miles an hour, we have twenty seven miles a minute for eight months between seven and eight hours. A minute is what your fly as best at night I mean I broke out of clouds, I mean I remember him and I flyin we're on its thoughts. I are it's called and I are out in instrument route that state law they're, all around the country theirs. I are three forty four degrees to fly, which would coasting.

I have argued fly from the land you got over the ocean turn around on and you could practice actually coming in on a coastline and we're flying, and we ended up in the clouds, keep in mind we're between five hundred and one thousand feet in the mountains and were in the closet. You can't see anything then had to turn off our red lights. The flashing oder called the anti collision lights because it was reflecting off the clouds and starts to bother. You just gets annoying, so I turned it off and we were flying we're flying we're flying. We break out of that coastal marine layers and poof we break out and it's it's a decent night, and this is right by mount St Helens. This is kind of where covenants were coming in from the east and we're just north of mount St Helens. Where the route goes and you look up, you know cause you can kind of see. The silhouette of the mountain. That's right, next to you, but you're flying along here. Just like you know, you gotta trust, and you can see houses. You can see the lights above. You were literally blow people's houses flying down these valleys and stuff. So just in experience. So when you take that and only move into an f eighteen, oh so now-

to modern technology was actually built in this century and your so now you know the widow is behind us and we're not doing those night low levels, but that same type of crew coordination that has to happen, because what you're doing is your sharing alone, so most of the communications that go out of you're playing the wizard as all the talk and he's got. Actually he was with the that's the weapon systems operator in the back of enough eighteen f. He's gonna run or the radar kind of runs itself now, but we have a situational awareness display, displaying its link, While the other areas like he asked it was the situation alone, is display, etc as a plot. Think of it, as think of it as a god's eye view. So if you have a the back of the super hornet has, while the block tos has about by ten display for the wizards that they can look at the pilots smarts down between his it's a six by six between his legs, they're, getting ready to redesign that boeing has. But when you looked, it did be like if you put your airplane in your looking down. So all the stuff like, if you rate are seen

guys out in front of you, be like looking down going all I'm right here and others bad guys out here and my wing men is over here and it shows everything it's just like the gives you you can look at that displaying o o I can see where everything's at I can see. If one guy is trying to target another guy uk, it shows you all that it's an incredible amount of knowledge that comes up for the crews, to maintain the the overall picture of. What's going on because just as it was because it's happening so fast, and this is without autonomy. Peace. This is the third brain so we're all looking at it in the third brain is doing fusion its point stuff together going up. This is all this guy. This is this guy, the sky it sending out through the links, while the airplanes are talking to each other through this digital network. You know that we don't even see it, just says that her plane says hey I'm over here and it tells us and we go oh he's right there and then we can go he's his airplane says. Oh I'm looking at this plain this bad guy, and it shows us oh he's, he's over there and is looking at this guy. I mean it's an incredible amount of vision,

all intake, because your eye, you can hear a lot, but when you look down at stuff itself in a the pictures that really quick the third brain is doing the sensor fusion, the integration of the different sensors and gives you a big picture view. What about the control like? Is there an apologist as as if this is a dumb question? But you know people use a high level term of autopilot. How much is there As he is a long term of air I, how much automation is there how much eyes there in helping control there? They? I peace, will be more of a control loop because the de Giovanni controls so the airplane. Actually they had to make the airplane easier to fly. and when I say easy, its relative, because people who I could do it, could I did it on flights him. It's a real life is a lot different in flights him. You have no apparent fear of death. You'll do things in simulator, you'd never do in real life, but the the autonomy in the airplane to allow you to manage and make, as you think about it, you ve got,

all its feeding. You data you ve got a targeting, posits feeding you data. All that stuff is hooked to your head because you ve got. Joint Helen monitoring system on attributed, basically maps the magnetic field in the cockpit so can tell your heads at looking. So turn my head to the right. The radar will actually look to write. The target fear will look to the right. and oh by the way, the back seat or as a home and onto so he can look to laughed and he can do things so depending on what sensor he's controlling. So, if he's got control of the targeting pod and he looks left, the targeting pod looks left But if I have something ruin a lock, a guy up that I dont see that made the radar and see. But I get over now point the radar. You know get the cause. It's it's a phaser rate are now. It doesn't really to scan. There's, there's all kinds of cool stuff that that technology brings, because if you if you went back thirty years and said hey or forty years ago and said, hey we're going to have this helmet in a year unveiled a slew everything to your head and I don't mean a mechanical said,

but I mean literally just gonna matt magnetic resonance ngo, oh look, and then I can. I can literally slew my sensors last and mash a button and transfer, you know, high quality coordinates from a system into a joint in o j down, which is a joint direct attack. Munition debt is the gps bombs that you see all the time and then let that thing fly and I'm I'm solving this problem in second vice minutes or hey, I got it we're going to have to menstruate cornice, and yet you know you bring back the data and, and they do all the targeting for it and then they send another group out to get it instead of all that now it's that fast. So the okay, I mean we probably don't have enough time to talk about the beautiful fusion of minds that happens when two people are flying a controlling the plane but At a high level, this is a really interesting question for people who don't know what you're talking about like me, which is what is the difference between

a human being and an air. I system like what can What is the ceiling of our current ai technology for controlling the play like? How much does the human contribute? Is it possible to have automated flight, for example, I've? What is the hardest part about flying the human? as expertly that an air system cannot in warfare situations in flying fighter. Gently sir, I would say: ai systems are usually black and white, when you write the algorithm for an ai system, it's it's it's it's really. It's basically you're taking thought and turning it into a giant. Math problem is really what you're doing right. So you've got this logical, math problem. Math problems are there's, there's there's a line. It says I can or I can't and it's it's a very finite line,

but you can go up to the line where a human we all have grey areas where we go yeah, maybe I'll, try it, and so he can operate within that great. So, if you took, if you take an airplane and say and I'll just take a hornet for awhile, a super hornet donmar any airplane and you go here- is the flight perform? which model of the airplane? So if you know in an a an e m, diagram is the energy, so it basically says the airplane can fly as slow as this. It can go as fast as this. Can pull this many Jeez force of gravity and also one two, three four five, six seven and in stone, airfoil design and everything else and how it can pull here's how it's going to fly. You know because it's really physic base. If you, depending on how you write the a I, but typically are you don't want the airplane to leave controls light right. You want to maintain it so that it is flying in a controlled envelope. Where there are times

and you go back to where war one where people intentionally departed the airplane from controlled flight in order to obtain an advantage, which is that's where the human goes. Can I do this? I know it's outside of where I would normally go, but I can do that, so you can do some crazy things now, especially since the flight control logic in modern aeroplanes with digital fly controls, their extremely forgiving so you can literally did he have done things and super hornets that literally, even as a pilot inside the airplane you're just like, while I cannot believe it just did that I get a flop ends which defies most lie. you can, I guess in a interfere in a way you could probably programme of. I still thinks that when you get to the edges, that may or may not give you an advantage. There are things that a human can boost will do that a high wall- and I think we ve got to

like us, how do you? How do you map illogical solutions in a most eyes, logical, it's based on some type of premise. When you write the algorithm to control it there's bounds, yet it is. This I must thank you said. The difference between the simulator in real life also gets it that somehow that there is somehow the fear of death, all that beautiful mass comes into play is there a comment you can make on commercial fly like was sally landing that plane famously versus the simulator. All those discussions is there some wage, it's very it's very similar to what I was talking about earlier, the a six! So one is when you're fine with a crew there- standardization, so you can remember when sully flew when his first oscar, that's the copilot showed up. You must first time they met in this happens. All the time in the

brush oral in others, six, seven thousand policy, united airlines- you know your chance of flying with the same die all the times, when the nine were in the navy, we were crude slight, a primary and secondary resolve that flew with me, for how form once yeah yeah for allowing the deployment so because you d honneur into knows, have to trust it, of those things it increases the capability airplane, it's not to say we can't swap out, but for true effectiveness, especially in very complex missions. Like at the air controller or in the air actually controlling ground assets and supporting ground troops. if you're in a high threat area, which is crazy busy. You have two, you have to be melded when you do that, you have to have trained to do that job. Otherwise, you're gonna be ineffective. So when you get to the commercial world and I'll get tons of friends that fly commercial, there is a standard.

and like we know that at this point I'm gonna put the switched you're gonna do that and everyone they know their rules. Captains going to do this first stasis going to do and they know that when the emergency breaks out so insult case when they take the birds- and they know they ve got a problem any. If you listen to the cockpit recordings of him that talking you know, you got a member there talking to each other when you hear the full tapes, but there also talking to the air traffic controllers and the new york area, and it's like that. We get a bird strike and the first ass roddy knows: hey silence the alarm: they science, you are the first officers pulling out the book. He's going through the procedures, while sallies actually find the airplane known that they ve lost their motors, and you gotta think his decision process like they're trying to get him to go into an airport in new jersey, and he realizes not happen and we're gonna. this thing and he made a decision soon enough, so they could

sure everyone on the airplane that he was going to put this thing in the hudson river and he did it flawlessly. I mean every single person walked away from that wreck. The only thing that didn't survive was the airplane in order to get fished out of the hudson. But what is it about those human decisions he had to make? Is that something you put into words, or is that just deep down. Some instinct develop as a pilot over times when we, when you train aviation is a self cleaning up, and so, if you make Vision of europe be relevant, list is long and distinguish of those who have died by making bad decision man. So when you look at He did or the way we trained as the commercial industry and the navy and the air force for all that we have which call. We have emergency procedures that we have to know liked engines on fire. The first three steps you just have to know what they are right:

so they know the airline same type. You know they go. Have I this as they pulled a book out, because the airplanes are designed they're built to have some time but there's a point where you have to make a decision? And you can't second guess it so when he decided I'm putting this in the hudson river, he couldn't all of a sudden halfway through it go will. Maybe I can get over that airport. He he he looks he made a quick assessment. This is that eighty percent solution you go. These are not you know. It's got it's like a multiple choice test. When you go. Oh my god. I don't really know the answer, but I know indeed are wrong. They're gone, so the jersey are poor and going back to the guardia gone. So what's my next door, and while the hudson river there s pray, looking pretty good, or what is my other one? Can I get? It We start on the motors and end. If I get a restart now, can I take it someplace else He had to make really really fast decisions and once they as a day

go that eighty per cent solution you realize I am going into the hudson. There's the eighty percent get the book out. Let's see if we can get inner story cause, if you listen to the tapes are trying to get it. Air started the closer he gets to the water. The more he's going. I am ditching the airplane, so the original decision to is my best option right now. This is where I'm going in. Start eliminating anything that could possibly changed the events which they tried to do and then he gets to that Ass many says we're going in the water, they changed the plan, they security airplane, they do exist What to do any? Does that basically flawless landing on the on the hudson, but you I remember it every city every six months for commercial, they go back and they do research on the airplane in a simulator where they train to the airplane being broken, you just lost a motor. You just lost another motor, so they go through this extensive training. You know, and all these in it's you know, it'll be a waste refer to it in the navy as the pain cave where you going to get in because you know

that when you get in for your check, ride in a simulator that the airplane is going to break you're going to lose hydra, and it's sometimes there a problem like. Oh, I just lost this hydraulic system, but I'm having an issue on the other motor will. If I shut down this motor and I've got a hydraulics, you know cause there's two hydraulic systems, one on each motor, Well, I got an issue with the left motor hydraulic system and my right motor starting to get me indications. Do I, shut the right motor down, cassettes, gonna, kill my hydraulic system, that's good and I'm flying on a good. quarter with a bad hydraulic system, and would I had relics, your plane won't fly, so they it's a really. It are challenging problems that you have to think through in real time and, of course, the weather is never good. It's always dark. It's always crappy you're, going to break out at miami just all this stuff gets compiled on top of you and it's intended to increase the level of stress because when things happen like in sully's case, we like to joke it's going to stem,

Power in over the functional part of your brain shuts down- and you are literally on instinct, like an animal. Well, if you ve train so much that that is the instinctive reaction that you're going to have when the main part of your here you're cognitive abilities, start to shut down you're you're running. That instinct is ingrained so much in tee Did you know exactly what to do and that's a literally how it happens? no, how do I put it? Fear of death like in salaries case. You think he was at all ever thinking about the fact. If his decision it is wrong. A lot of people going to die. I mean I can't speak form, but I would say there was so much going on at the cockpit and at time his his mindset was. Probably I can do this. I'm train I'm going to do to procedures. I've practice this before I've done these things, and I did the I'm assuming that in my text,

I never thought about when things were really bad. You know, if you're having problems with the airplane, that you know that I was going to mort you know and and planted into the ground. It was always you know. Maybe it's an ego thing where you think I can do this and you mean so you never have you explain, fear during fight, like I mean When one way we just off, I met you mike tyson may talk about like as visa walking up to the ring he's like he starts out. Basically, in fear, and they are worried about how things are going to garments. Pick purely to put into words is fear, but, as he gets closer and closer to the ring is the key friends, girls and girls until the ego basically takes over you think there's no way anybody could defeat me. So, like that's, that's his experience of overcoming

fear. But do you did you experience any kind of thing like that? Or that or do you just go to the part of the brain that goes to the training? And then you just go to the instinct for eighty four a solution I would say I was never afraid. I think that would be, I couldn't tell you that anyone I know that was an afraid at one time and for most of us, especially navy carrier pilots. It's just it's usually especially when your new and you gotta go out and its nighttime and there's no moon and the weather socks and the next move in other, the the ships going up and down cosette whisker lover living sharia. Can I say that it you if this is so is default, landing and take off that that is, if you, even as they they used to wire people, they did it during vietnam. You know guys who go fly missions reply and low and crazy stuff was going on, and people are shot down lot the highest. highest anxiety in heart rate were coming back to land on board an aircraft, your heart is it to land and that it seems impossible leg for

for civilian. I guess, like me, just seems crazy- that a human can do that the problem with night is the winners different degrees of night just like day there's two clear full moon night. You know where it's like move now. This is not that bad, add, but you gotta remember at night. I think everyone can associate with you, driving in your car, and it's just a it's. It's an overcast dark night and you're on a country road with no sidelights. Most people have a tendency to slow down just by nature, oh my god cause you! U what you'll do your hard drive your headlights, because it is so dark union outside. Are you get us out of setting it up in the new hampshire expects when the roads are curve in in know, in the lines priority that good its ino? Now take that and multiply it by, like million, because you have no doubt perception or what you think is, except the runway is actually moving

up, and I left them as Algeria only name when it's really bad, you can actually see it move and we have. Two systems you know, there was a there's, an automatic system, it's actually it stabilizes with the initials on the ship and then there's the aisle ass. Now civilian pilots tell you that I am less as a precision approach which gives you, asthma and glide slope in come down you it's like a plus on the carrier. It's not it's really just a beam that goes out. It's considered a non precision approach. It's it's not stabilized did all that and yeah I've been where you can actually watch the needle and the and the the tacky needle will move, there's all kinds of stuff moving, because the the base that it's all sitting on is doing this and ships don't just go up and down the they they do this. So the ball goes up and down in the tail, like you normally see a ship, and then her so that's pitch, and then it has roll. So it's doing this and then it has heaved. So the whole boat is going up and down, watch pitching and rolling, and your land on that and

So, in its I mean I remember landing size with Chris Saito krishna, we're the? U ranger, which is now decommission its sitten gettin turnin razor blades and we're flying the old, a six and we come in in his office, san diego and it's just the ugly night cause san diego This has a marine layer that is about twelve feet was lowered net that I was pouring down rain. It was an nino year in their studies storms all around. Just crazy Snyder ever seen our santiago and I remember landing and your adrenalin is so high that you're shaking I, you literally can't stop and we had spun around out of the landing area and we parked we, we caught the six packs. What's right in front of the islands, have you seen aircraft carrier of the island and the number of the shipment We're sit right in front of it and we're looking at the landing area. So it's like a! U get front row seats to the concert and analyse this. This year, six b comes in

I hope, ugly pass. He ends up catching a one wire, which is the first one. You never want to catch the first one which means you're not really high. Above the back of the ship when you landed and it comes in and the the exhaust on any a six or an eight six actually points kind of down and it blows and it's blowing all the standing water on the aircraft. That's how hard it's raining and literally could not see across mean I could see the front of my airplane his airplane, and it was just white because of the water being blown off the deck, and I shaken, and I I liked that I'll. Never forget. I looked over at chris and I said, oh my god ago, a dude man, ten thousand foot runway, looks really good right. Now no, I don't I'm shaken hands like this. I said I'm not even this is taken as too No, that's literally, I cannot stop shaken. I suggest gurdy avalanche army there, but you, but it scares you afterwards. You don't during it you're. Not not. You don't have time to think about that you're doing it you gotta do is. We know kind of the quote from Tom hanks and what's that to the girls baseball movie, where he goes

crying a baseball. Well, are you at our job? crying and alienation. I said he, you can fly around and cry all you want at night, but you know, there's only one pilot knows airplanes and you land it. So you cry you do I want my dears way. You know put any big kid pants in its time. It's time you know manawyddan and land that blanda jet, sorry for the romantic question, but come back to the the kid that dream to fly. What's it like to fine airplane, what it looks credible treated as a human rights at the centre of ape, I say here on land and will look up a you guys. Seems incredible that a human being can do that, you know people ask you know, be sitting around my friends and are like how was I said it the greatest job on the planet. I said you know you it's it's a office with a view cause you're sitting in a glass of the. U you can do you know it's like roller coasters you go. Oh does all this cost us, so we take people

I know, and it's like I like rollercoaster, they gonna take any rollercoaster coolest role because you ve ever been on and multiply it by a thousand. They sit it's an experience. You know to put your body under you know you de jets, rated at seven a m, but it'll pull up to eight point. One before an over stresses depends Few way, so I mean you routinely get up there towards eight gs to be able to do. That hereby mean it takes a toll I can't really turn my head real good, any more in and stuff like that, but what I trade it I may was a childhood dream. I, how many people get to do that in our profession. I would be a nfl, you know any end up to the nfl, which is a very small percentage, would want to fly jetson in to fly you know at the time when I was flying the super hornets that we had on our squad and were brand new at, like literally right out of the factory I'd come off. Our first super hornet cruise we had went to the boeing factory in ST. where there were building my new jets that I was going to get an actually sign the inside of one of the wings down why they were putting it

others, I'm meeting the people that are putting the jet together. That's gonna get delivered to me in a couple of months that I'm gonna fly. So just I mean the whole of it. Is it's it's the I'll! Tell you what, when I left, when I decided to walk away their money, is it I told myself? I wouldn't. I promised myself that once you get three or o five command, your flying really starts to tag to come down even if you and your air wing commander, which is the wee com, cag carrier group manner and you're, not flying as much as like the norm, pilots. Nor should you be, he mean there's young people that are coming up and it's training a relief because that's the next generation my currently I have friends of mine that we serve together. Their kids are flying super hornets right. So, me. That's really neat cause. I watched him when they were little and now

one of them who is good friends and will get his last name but joey at to live down the street from us is a top, was atop an instructor and I'm like hey always choice, a top gun now and I'm like that's cool because you know what they are, and I knew him he would come down to my ass now to see these kids that are because typically military breeds military. You know because the kids grow up, and I mean- and I the the only reason that my son is not doing it- is he's colorblind. So it it disqualifies you for being a pilot being a seal cause. He'd he'd talked about two and axes, an incredible swimmer and he likes doing that stuff and water polo player. But he's in about my kids are when my daughter the doktor and my son, in its thirty or so but There's a I suppose and if my perspective, a bitter sweet handover of this incredible experience a flying. to the younger generation. So you don't you told you so You're not gonna, miss it. You miss it their days. I do when I hear

chats like if I'm around a base or a jet flies over but I have all the memory, so I can look at and go. They can go on forever. You know Tom Tom Brady can't play football they're going to come a time when he as to set off? He seems to have done you know. Typically, when you look at you go, I had the opportunity- and I think is automation, moves on, especially with a sigh that you know. When will when will the last man fighter rebuilt in or not that big question? You know we just did a thirty five, it's over budget at seven years, late, there's all kinds of issues and will try and do it. Then any look at some of the new stuff. That's coming out that the air forces working on with smaller, cheaper, a tradable platforms, you can go. Oh, we can, because, if you don't put a man in the box or a black person, because there's a lot of the incredibly talented women do this to swell. You say that his power.

yeah, so we say man and he will mean both men and women is a fine. You ve told me we've bought a lot of incredible women. That phone says as I had. I had three three females. Actually for one of them didn't fly anymore. She actually lives right around here she she's a. She ended up going into eight aircraft maintenance when she can Finally, one of the girls who everyone whose is incredibly she's one of the most gifted people I've ever met in my life. She is the vice president, amazon area, consider on tv or renamed. Sarah incredible and I had a page who, when ended up taking command, she got out of fighters and went into other platforms. and she was a commanding officer and then the other one is a teaches leadership and she is all three of them actually four of the women that were direct, I'm home, not forgetting opening unforgotten, someone, incredibly, incredibly talented and agree

in addition to the reading room, so anyone who gets into the you know women can't do it. That's all total horse crap, and you know we can talk about that integration and stuff, which was not done well by the military northern eighty, so women can fire as good as the guys. You can't tell if you ass, an airplane, you get off, there's a man or woman, and it really comes to I want to stick and throttle the ability to extrapolate where the vehicle is going to be where the airplane would be. If you're fighting another one, you have to be able to think fast. Anyone has those characteristics, can do it and then I think most impact Besides that there has to be a desire- and I must say that everyone, if you took because we used track so well, IRAN. We call it the rag, it's the replacement air group, it's where so. The the super hornet training squadron, there's two hunters, one on the east coast, one o six and there's one on the west coast, which is via fe one twenty two.

One? Twenty two was the first one, so I ended up going there and I ended up being the operations officer and training officer the k. So we track the last hundred students right. So everyone goes. I it's funny to hear students talk is oh he's, awesome users. If you took the hundred there's three at the top of the list that are just naturally gifted aviators. There well well. Well above average, it's like the person and a math class. It sits down a complex matter and they just get it. You know at the bottom there's the three at the bottom that are going to struggle and there's a good chance they won't get out and if they do get out there and have to work really hard to just maintain kind of average. Sometimes you just wait or mine works Everyone is good at everything. If you took the ninety four of them in the middle there within one mean deviation of you know, it's there they're all you know it's. The belcour doesn't look real good just a big harmony comes back down and everyone's right there within one mean deviation, and you have the outliers. Usually

in the high side cause they're going to get through, but the outliers on the low side that don't make it through do so for the most part navy does a really good job, as does the air force of screening so now at what they do. When I went you just showed up and he started now, you do. Is you actually go fly a piper warriors lowing, He can you. Are you adaptable to this and there's an evaluation that goes through? then. If you hit a certain mark, then you're good to go, and then he put you in a primary it's kind of like a it's like a precheck. You know, like the preset the prius eighty to go hey. How am I going to do on the s? A t? It's it's, it's very similar to that, but it's more of a hand. Skill. Can you adapt although we live in three dimensions like this table, is not you know, wheat desist? You know this is all has depth with all that, where it's really relative deviation. We are two dimensional very two dimensional. Can you explain that? so our perception is actually more limited than they. And that of an aviator very much and hears. Why so

we look at. Let's look at a tall building. Let's look at one world great centre in new york, because Everyone knows what looks like big tall building that's what maybe eighteen hundred feet or even a bird Well, dubai, which is like what twenty some hundred feet tall? It's not that big, so a super hornet to do or what a split s's, which is I'm flying, I'm just going to roll the airplane upside down and I'm going to do basically a c. The letter c I'm going to go in the top of the Al Bab, so I'm just going to basically a vertical display, well, the airplanes I'm gone from high to low it's very, very tight, and it doesn't in about roughly about twenty five hundred feet, give or take a little. So you go there. that- is a really tight vertical turn, for example the eight six. In order to do that was about nine thousand feet and we look at a building, that's two thousand feet high and think that is Paul re right so in aviation sense, when you're starting to do vertical displaced, maneuvers, going from thirty five thousand feet down a twenty.

Thousand feet in a matter of seconds and maneuvering airplane, because the human brain thinks ray. We really are we liked you'd, like I say we may think to diesel. If I'm fighting You really get an advantage when you're fighting another airplane is to work in the vertical, because most people will do like one move in the vertical and then they want to start to flatten out, because that's where we're comfortable, yes and if a fondue still think in like stacks of two d layers or know or do do you truly hard to think in that third dimension, like the rich three world of like of fighting, they could do started he be able to really experienced the three d nature you do because you have the projectile you're be so you have to it, the performance of the airplane, knowing that hey. If I do this maneuver, that I am going to go, it's good, it's kind of like when I, when I talk about when we were chasing the tic tac, so the ticket- coming up I'm at about you know, I've been doing this for at the time. Sixteen years

So I'm looking and I'm going hey. I'm here he's there on the other side of the circle, I'm going to do a vertical displacement. Gonna go like this. I'm gonna cut across the circle and I'm not going to him I'm going out in front of him I'm going over here, I know that by the time I get through this maneuver, that's where he's going to be, and I'm trying to you know basically join up on him, but all in all, I also had to look at it go. Do I have enough altitude to do because what I did before here- and I do this- I'm gonna end up over here and he's going to be above me and then you know I have to get that energy back to get up to him and when you're doing a max performance, it's a trade. So you have that this is. This is really important when you're, when you're fighting aeroplanes in a really max performing. So when you go to shown you see the air demo he's litter we playing with it he's gonna finite amount of energy right. He can add some with the motors and stuff, but what you really do. It is it's a trade off and you can trade off kinetic energy speed for altitude, which gives you potential energy. The other pieces, as I can trade, some of that kinetic energy for

performance because I know, if I do a nice easy turn, the airplane will make it and what doesn't bleed energy. But I know if I do a real tight, that twenty five hundred foot split us that it's going to cost me energy. So if I enter the split us at two hundred knots- and I do it right- I'm come out at the bottom, it probably to utter knots. Although I lost twenty five hundred feet of potential energy, I converted that to that that kinetic kinetic, annette, connecticut transition and blood off the wings. In order for me to get that high performance turn, then you have to constantly evaluate where you're at and at your overall energy package. So you can have a guy, that's behind you! That looks like he's going to kill you, but if this jet is at four hundred knots and this jet is at one hundred and ten knots, this jets, just gonna pull away, drive around and kill him in about. Thirty seconds right, it's its overall energy package and that's that you gotta be kidding. evaluating where you're at- and this is that eighty per cent solution can I afford to do this or not? Yes, no and you have literally a split second to make the most incredible dance of human decision making. That is,

incredible. I know a million people were mete out. What take back and do nothing were bologna ass though one last, the ridiculous Sir subjective question was the greatest plain ever made in history you don't get to life from pure speed, I would say, as our seventy one I think it's an engineering marble that was actually developed in the fifties by Kelly johnson dino skunk works for what that, they will do and when you get into history of it you know how they actually built the cia. They made like six companies in order to buy the titanium from russia. The brain back and build an airplane out titanium that we would five rush to me. That's isn't it audible junior model. I think that, like the experts, seen in oh by the way this on this. As I said, to drop this seventy one still, the speed record form of any plane. As far as can understand here. What's funny when you get into it is its member fast? Is relative.

When I say that I mean so, if you're going three thousand miles an hour, a hundred feet above the ground, you're going three thousand miles an hour through email. You that's a faster going when you get up to attitude. There there's an indicated, airspeed and there's a you know your ground speed. So your indicated airspeed is really how fast the air is going past your airplane, while the air is so thin up there You may only be showing you like three hundred knots, but at three hundred, not you really do, and twenty five miles an hour over the ground. So now, like, we would take the airplanes up to fifty thousand feet when we had to do full. The maintenance check flights on him. So when you're doing two hundred, you know- and he has some mod- not sure it's actually slow for the airplane. It's you know, you're getting, You know it's kind of like it's not! You know, there's maneuvering speeds! You know that if I hit a certain speed and a supported that I have the full capability, the airfoil, if I'm below that speed, I'm going to stall the airfoil before I get to the maximum g, okay.

So when you look at something like that, you go is really going fast. The aim when you look at us are seventy one. That's fine upwards of you! No seventy plus thousand feet the air so thin. You know just like s, fifteen you can get too much higher. Speed, but the relative speed of the air going over. You is actually relatively low. So the stresses on the framework- like they would be if you were down low but because you're going fast to get enough air over your peter static system to show the you're going three hundred, not your beer screaming. I mean the fastest I ever got was. I was with the will soon to be vice admiral white, so we had taken a check flight and a, and I got it up to one point: seven: eight: I got a supernova to mach, one point, seven, eight and it was and we're short by pebble beach too, and it was that feel like. This is guessing when you get that fast start to me. It got a little bit weird cause you realize in your brain, and I did that there's no out. If something happens, I can eject the ejection would

Kill me he's not gonna liberating unaware of that are not dead well maybe not always want to push the limit. You know it's like how fast I could have got it going faster. It was. It was literally still accelerating when I stopped, but I had it was fuel, limited and spaceland, because our genome, I'm off the coast of california, big sir, and I'm going in, I can see pebble beach out in the distance in all the whole manner Peninsula is going in I joined almost eighteen miles a minute I mean you're, screaming yeah. I mean that's in any of the chernobyl, the airplane have anything on it. It was a slipped off. Superabundance was basically just the airplane, no pylons, no pods, no nothing and then we had to get it turned around, because we got to go to the exit point for the area and I'm trying to get it down blow to subsonic and there's a bunch of things that are disabled like the speed brakes. Only we pop out when you're gonna fast. They don't because a support really doesn't have speed breaks. It did deforms the fly controls there function? So you really you try,

maneuvering when you're goin at fast, you can't turn because a seven g turn at one point five march is a pretty big turn, so it's just it's crazy. Incredible human can do this human can engineer that the system which allows another human to control system and its tomatoes. It, sir, I think it's just its wits- wanted a great expert. It's sad sad to see are so many one go. I think it was during your career, I mean: do you guys romanticize a different planes planes we would. See it fly and when I was fine hornets because we west coast flies and it's called our twenty five weight, which is covers the navy, china, lake area and edwards. It's a huge area. It's it's! Actually, I think the we had a guy from Switzerland come out cause. They were the hornets and he's like this is bigger than our whole country cause. It's a pretty big area in California that fly but you would see the s r, seventy ones. I had a loop because nasa was flying them out of palmdale and they would take off and they'd go up towards washington, state and montana and a dual loop

so you'd see him coming back down the descend out of above. Sixty thousand you'd see him either get contrails. You know the white lines behind airplanes and come down and hit the town gonna go back up, so it was cool we'll see them in my lifetime flying. But you know, I think, with money age, the advent of satellites in are everywhere now mean you get commercial companies but satellites up how much, need was really there. Could you gotta remember when those things started in the fifty sputnik wasn't flying around Was it was a? U to any us. Are seventy one rather doing that work so the time it was needed. It is at the brief you think about really is an incredible feat of aviation for time they mean literally. We have yet to pass that, and you also asked was our need to pass that I go. I dunno we got stuff in space, so do we need make an airplane. It goes that fast. I think the next one is you get into the for where you dont have to put a person and it does all kinds of crazy stuff. Now the work it out

nation of that kind of stuff here, so The reasons I want to talk to you as you happens to be one of these. Have you wanna most credible witnesses in history of far somebody who is witness there? Are you a foul literally and identified object? and not only witnessed like got to. How do you put it like chase? It essentially urged it tasted. So let me just lay out, I think it's easier than you telling the story may be me, my dumb simpleton ways trying to explain as I understand it, and then maybe you can correct me. So on november twenty two thousand and four the: u S, s prince, that, which is why the carriers such cruiser sick, a cruiser. cursor as can't land and no helicopter- has helicopter pat on the back, but gotchas in

These weapons are ok, guidance, shoots the missiles up, but has an radar just got incredible spy. One system phased re for panels, so looks quadrants perfect. Today they say noticing on november tenth, that there is a few objects lying around twenty. Eight thousand feet with speed of with: what's, I guess, is considered a loss, of a hundred twenty miles an hour. Don't know that in knots, but on the coast of california so and they kept detecting these objects. For about a week then comes in like you're part of the story, which is on november Roma fourteenth. From the I guess, it's from the: u S, s nimitz, I you fluid witnessed a forty foot. Long white take tat, shaped, object, would know wings Fine ways you ve never thought possible,

and die in some interview somewhere. He said I think he was not from this world, so there is a mysterious aspect to this object to this entire situation there's videos involved The video of a flare forward, looking infrared receiver, monsieur as also the visible light he can switch. You and me as a tv mount was so that gives you visible light, none as ireland and chad, underwood recorded their video search engine. the videos there were released by the pentagon later, one of the three videos, the two the videos go fat and gimble work did in two thousand something fourteen fifteen are now east coast, the united states. They had different kinds of objects, but their weird and the same kind of way in

if at least the videos and the experiences that people have described were similar in in the degree of weirdness, but the differences is actually on the these costs. The two thousand and fourteen very few people have spoken about it and even in your situation, very few people spoken about it. So there is a mystery to it, but it's in some senses, the quite simple story, without much resolution to the mystery and its fascinating and There is a lot of opinions, there's division of opinions, because it's a mysterious it truly is a year fall in the sense that the? U a p, what is it on identified or airline phenomena. So can you may

correct me on any of the things I've gotten wrong, elaborate on some key things and described that experience in general. So here's what I know so yeah we went out on our mission to go train and they cancelled a mission and a senator and there's all kinds of, out here, there's all kinds of after this has come out. So originally it was the four of us there's two jets to people in each jet, their f. Eighteen us nk there is no video from are. That is all for sets eyeball staring at this thing and then, when we came back and told it when Chad and his pilot took off that's when she had got the video of it and we're like that That's exactly that's it ma. So many say I've you mean literally, your eyes are seeing a thing. So so we're fine, we get we get vector, they come up and tell us they were gonna, cancel training as a uss princeton. So this is this aegis cruiser. So we're talking

two one controller and who is like hey, sir first, he asked what ordinance we have on board and I laugh cause. We don't carry live ordinance and training. Typically, because batch stuff happens. Usually someone forgets to put a switch on and the missile comes often hits a good airplane and it's not good. So he had what's called a kadam nine, which is really just a blue two with the. Im night seeker on the front of it, which is an I r missile. So there's only two ways to get it off. You can beat it off with a sledgehammer. You can take this. The answer you've put wrench in and unlocks the lugs and pulls the lugs back in the holding when it really fires, the impulse from the engine actually throws the legs forward and breaks that release and it comes off down the rail. That's how it works. so they said hey well, we have real world tasking. So as we're going out my wing men, the other pilot. She may rosier plain to the left hand side of me, so she's kind of stepped up like this and I use your might buy

to start says we're going out there. Con ranges are called brok halls, bearing ranging attitude in their telling us hey, it's it, forty miles or fifty miles, and forty thousand thirty miles other sand. to seven zero, thirty. Twenty thousand. So I say So we got a radars meda. We had the mechanically scan reigners. It's time a produce have three good piece: a gear. Deputy something I knew one's way better, but anyway and ABA just ventre up the story of this useful but you're telling your location of a thing. They should look at their tell us. They occur attack on their radar than what it is. They did have a blip their global it. Will they ve been what he sings and what he told me is. They have been looking at these things as we're drawing a sister we've been tracking these things for about two weeks, as we had been at sea for two weeks, because this is the first time we've had planes or more and we want you to go, see these are that recently, eight out of interrupt the mission to say check it up with what is in it. So we start driving out there and as we get down

two he's going. You now twenty miles fifteen miles ten miles, and then you get to the point where they call merge plot, which means we're inside of the resolution, says the rate. Arcos radars don't see everything there. so range and they have an asthma resolution right so in its basically think of a little cubes lincoln. And the whole sky is made of all these little cubes and they're. Looking so, if you're inside a cube with something and you're both inside the same little cube, then the radar can only see one thing that makes sense. If so, they call merge plot. When, when we say merge plot to us, it means he's right around somethings around you get your head out. So we're not looking at radar scopes anymore and the wizards the wizards can look, but every one it's heads out when they say marriage plot you're done at your displays inside you're doing this and you're trying to find it? So as we look out to the right and you look high and low cause, he could be anywhere from the surface. All the way up now, keep in mind the ship is like probably sixty miles away, so it can't see the surface

can do your standard rate, a horizon calculation and go hey it stood. The thing is forty feet off the water, the panel? Can you really see in their operators? It can see around the curve, but let us say that it can't at this time so echo is even worse. Is that so we're looking around. We see no says it's a clear day: there's no clouds and there's no whitecaps. It's just a com. It's actually a perfect day. If he owned a sailboat. It was that five, the tenets of win I just want to kind of go out there and you're not going to get beat up and have whitewater camera is the. It was the perfect date on a sailboat, How many miles out easy like seven like you see, this is a clear day, but fifty is understood, visibility. You can see literally always arising just clear out, it's nothing and we basically off the coast. If you look map and you, san diego and an insider mexico were kind of between now and were prowling about, but

this all hits were price ilo. Eighty hundred I'll know, but somewhere out its pre far off the coast. Perfect is averted from twenty thousand feet. You'd be amazed, you can do the calculation, you can see stuff. You know, you'll see land fifty miles away. You can see you know and when you're looking at a continent, it's really easy to see you're, not looking at an island when you're looking at mexico, and you can see? I know why in the water, if there is any way, yeah easy there for us, we look at it because we know of it natural wind or so. If it's really white cap windy day, then the ships just kind of barely be moving when we land on it, it makes actually easier if the ship has to move where it's got a big weight, because it has to it gets one when, when we land, which is the day that it was this day, he go okay, then it creates. What's called, we call the burble, but when the air flows across the flight deck it drops behind the ship and then it kicks back up. So when you're come and board a lan, it's going to make you go up a little bit and then you're going to fall and you gotta cant. You gotta anticipate that to stand lights up so we were pretty.

Were pre conscious of what's going on out there with the waves and win. So we look there's no ways. There's no wind is no white caps and we looked down. We see white water. So if you put it, if you put a piece of land seamount below the surface, like you know even twenty, more serves its big enough as the waves come in. You know, waves have height and length when they come. That's what happens on the shore when a wave comes in, it hits and, and it starts to collapse and it pushes the wave height up because it can't go anymore and then stopping it. He can as we get the weight. So what happens is at sea when you get a seamount you'll see I commend the wave crashing you get whitewater. You can go out when its high tide think in any one of the coasts. You can go out here off a boston and go hey at low tide. I can see those rocks in at high tide. I can't see the rocks recovered, but there'll be whitewater around those rocks. You'll be able tell her something underneath the surface that makes the So that's what it was we see, we will see an object as her stockings of all. They saw this. They saw it on other craft below the way we did

anything below the water. We just saw white water, but the white water, and I like to shape it. You can say it was across. I say it's about the size of a seven thirty seven. So it looks like if you took a seven thirty seven I put it about fifteen twenty feet below the water, so the waves breaking over the top and you're going to get whitewater where the plane is at you'd, see that this kind of shape. So it looks like a cross so we're looking down off right side, the back seat or kneeler, a plane, germ cell, this. Is that talking in partials? Again he says: hey skipper, do you and that's, what he gets out of his mouth. And I got what the hell is that in another you see that essentially what he's always see the white water and that's what draws our eyes down, or otherwise we d never seen it. So we see I would like to see the look in your face. When you see the enemy, then Edith little white tic tac cause more about twenty thousand feet above it, and it's doing it's going basically nor south and the east west north into its abrupt. It's very abrupt. So it's not like a helicopter for helicopters going.

Sideways and it goes one states going sideways, left and goes where and what it'll do is it'll go. It's got a speed, it slows down cause, there's inertia and it stops, and then it goes back. The other way. This thing's, not it's like left right, left right with no some moving in ways that doesn't doesn't feel intuitive to you at off of the things you've seen in the past. So as a pilot, the first thing you think, is it's a helicopter right right, so you go! Oh, what is because we see it's move and we're like oh helicopter. So the first thing for to see if its helicopter, when they're doing that, because usually when they get down there towards at fifty feet, you get rotor wash you see. in the movies when the helicopters by the water it kicks the water comes up besides cause the downdraft like a thunderstorm will do that it pushes the air down and and has to come up the sides so you see it you go. I was no no rotor wash. What is that they see by this time were driving around so as where, if we were at the six clock or drive around towards at nine o clock position and we're just watching this thing, and it just sit still point a north south and it's gone left.

And it's kind of moving around the object and if it had, if I had to say, biased itself whose biased towards the bottom half so if you got the east west and in the north, was kind of a cross. It's hanging out on the southern thing. That's hanging out, she's kind of move around up down, left and is crossing over it. It's going up just kind of So now I know what the hell is that. So then I go hey, I'm gonna go check it out and the other pilot says I'm going to stay up here and I said yes stay a pie because now we get, we get a different perspective, so she's up here and I'm down here As I'm descending, she can watch because right now, I'm watching is the tick tock. She can watch me and the tic tac. So she gets a god's eye view of everything that's going on, which is really important. You can your hear. People say it's high cover, whatever she's watching me, which is it's perfect, as the story goes on, because it gives us a two perspectives. You know of a perspective, it's my eight thousand feet above us when that thing disappears and they don't cause a vicious like. Oh, I lost it.

No, no! No! It's over to the right. We can still see we all lost it at the same time. So as we come down, we get to about twelve o clock and I'm just saying it's easy to set up doing about three hundred knots, which is really going to speak for the airplane for maneuvering, because I have I have everything available to me at that, So I'm coming down and as I get to twelve o'clock as a tic, tacs newness it literally it's like a big, it's aware of us, and it just goes blip and it kind of points stout towards the west. It's coming up so now. It's obviously knows that were there whenever this thing is in those over there since we drive around it. It's coming up and I'm just coming downwards, I'm just watching it! No you don't remember. This whole thing is like this is like five minutes. This is not like. We saw it, it was gone or who I saw lights in the sky and they were gone, but we watched It's got a crystal clear day with four trained observers. Washing firearms were like ok, so I get over to eight o clock. mission and I'm a little I'm a couple thousand feet above it and it's about swine prowling about fifteen k. I think it is, I think, as my stories about fiftieth, just estimating see

see. It's still really easy to set, because so was thirteen K. Fifteen thousand b, I thought it was a the two other or plans of about five out of his anxious, and so there are still at about twelve, I wasn t so therefore, I slowly and I'm descending their stain of their. So I'm kind of doing this guy's a driver. So I'm look at this thing, and it's about the two o'clock position were about the eight o'clock position and I'm like oh I've got. I've got enough altitudes, I'm going to I'm going to cut across the circle. I told the guy in my backseat dude, I'm gonna do this he's like go for it skip because I was a skipper, so I cut across the bottom, so I'm kind of must come about co, altitude sinks, kimono me it and I'm, DR in, and I get to pry it's important. a half mile away what you think why half miles pre far half mile in aviation? Isn't it's nothing? It's you mean you Well there's a pilot in an airplane. You can see all kinds of stuff and a half mile. You can see prig detail.

So I'm like right there and it's coming across my nose. So now I'm basically pointing back towards the swamp cutting across, because I'm going to the three o'clock position. It's a two o'clock and I'm going to meet it at three o'clock says I do this. It goes it just accelerate and disappear. So it's this happens. It around estimate about twelve thousand feet so there at twenty, so they've got about eight thousand foot of altitude above us when this happens, and it just is, it crosses our nose. It just it accelerates and literally in less than a year prayed less than a half. Second, it just goes and is gone and so were like, and I had. The first thing is dude: did you guys see it. The other planes like it's gone, we don't. We have no idea where it's at so we kind of spin around rock. I go, let's see what's down here and I turn around we're. Looking for the white water and we came, the white water is gone, there's nothing! its literally. All blue is now you go, and I am we're tellin the guy my back seat. I could do them

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty weirded out, because this is a view mean I had at the time like thirty, some hundred hours of flying had been doing it for eighteen years. It's nothing like anything. You've seen them know, so as we turn we are. Let's just go back in oak is not gonna put on my real hat, which we have trained as we're getting ready to deploy too. You know these. So we've got to get our training done. So that's my mindset, especially as a ceo, because I get pegged at training out of the flight time because I'm responsible to do that. So hey. Let's go back and the the the guy who's going to be the bad guys is the ceo of the marine squadron and so cheeks is the one he's listening to all this happen. You know cause he's just like cars they when he first went out, they going to do him, but the little hornets the legacy harnessed. F eighteen sees don't have as much gases the supermarkets, so he had launched first and they were going to do him in and when they knew we were off the deck they just sold him a go to your cap point down south and we're going to send will pass this off to the the supernatant was a cap point, but that's where we hold. So it's called a commenter

roll point so we're just gonna hold at one and he's gonna hold at the other end. Can like hey, you guys get aids. It's like. I don't give a football field, we're going to sit on one goal line, he's going to sit on the other goal line and when they say, go we're going to run at each other and try and do something in the middle of field. Then go back to our set reset points. Okay,. See you're talking to him? He's he's he's listening. I was just listening. We don't talk to him at all. He's just listed he just dials up because they know that we all know the frequency so he's listening to. What's going on because he's like cause, I cancel training. So what else is he going to do? Is just going to hang out there and do circles, ways waiting him and his wingman so they're just there, listen and all this go on, and then at this point you move on here. We come back up to trade. We go back as we're flying back. The controller cause we're talkin to the kid on the Princeton leah thea, their calo asses are up. Operation specialists, they are the ones that run the writers and we're talking to I mean he's like a sir you're not going to believe this, but that thing is at your cap. It showed back up and just popped up me, and this is like sixty miles away. Just reappears, swirling

Ok, so we got the raiders out, we're looking for it. We get out there, we never see it may never see it again. We do what we need to do. We come back to the ship course now I got this is me where again I told I told him I go. Do you know where any catch wearing to catch shit? For this, when we get back to the ship, where it's going to get out and we're just going to catch maximum shit, and we did and it's it's kind of joking, you know so the shit plays. These we are moving on about and they do twelve hours a movie, so they repeat cause there's a day. Chicken and egg checks are the same movies in the morning and night play so you never get to ever get to watch a whole movie on a boat which drives my wife, crazy cause. I watch stuff on tv that way too we like, oh, he, have seen this in all jump in your movie in the middle and then I'll pick later and I see the beginning and put it all together, because that's how we have to do it cause we're so busy While the movies became a knife is in black aliens, penance day, nothing and catch your shit, but we do it

but let let I let me just ask them dumb question suggests taken because it's what are whatever the hell saw whatever the hell happened. It's you know one of the most fascinating things events in recent history is so whatever it was his age I think, to talk about a different kinds of angles. There's no good answers, but it's interesting to ask some dumb questions here. So, first of all you mentioned see, you saw at some point x Y and then us somebody in the press. It said you're not going to believe this. Sir. It's at your cap point that that's a different place. How the heck did it know where your cap point is that the question that needs to be reviewed and no one will. You won't tell it to you not broadcast that we have a way point system, but I don't know, maybe it knew where we are going to be the same one day after day after day, if you put it it

Obviously new, and you never saw it. There never sought there, chad when he took off when he got the video we landed. We told them hey, look we just we just chased this thing, they're going to go, chased it and they're like waggle duty, and I told him I said dude get video he goes and so and that's how he is he's like I'm gonna go anyway. He was he was determined, he was going to finest thing. So when you look at his video, this is the stuff it isn't out that they don't see, because not all the the all you see is the flare tape. That's the targeting pod, the forward, looking infrared receiver, I probably hopefully the vision he posing when he goes out. It's you know what he's looking out on his displays, the he is basically to radar displays up here.

As asthma and arrange on the right one, and he has asthma and innovation on the left one. So this is called the as EL display, and this is called. This is basically the p p I, which is the year at the bottom of it here at the bottom of the square. It's really taken this it's taken. A cone cause rate are really looks, left and right from a point and it squares it out. So the entire bottom of the scope that we look at is us. it's because they do this. They scored also. So he goes out and when he first sees it, he gets a radar return on it because, when he's not trying to lock it so the radar throw in energy out and getting it. You know it's a doppler radar. So when it's in search mode, that's all it's doing, it's gone whoa I can see of. I can see and it's looking for returns. So he gets a return,

burn, so he wants to see what it is, because all you get is a little green square unless it builds a track file on it, but a little green squares just sitting there. It's not moving, because it's it's sitting in one spot in space. He locks it up when he goes to lock it up now he's putting a bunch of energy on it. He's telling the radar stare down that line of sight and whatever is there. I want you to grab it and build a track file on it, which will tell us how high it is, how fast it is and the direction that is going. Okay, the radar smart enough that when the signal comes, back. If it's been messed with, it will tell you what I'll give you indications that I'm being jammed. So that's all. It is, as you send a signal out something it manipulate the signal either in range and velocity or whatever, and it sends it back and the radar was smart enough to go that. It's not a return and I'm expecting something's messing with a young worrying jam and it shows you in it puts strokes up. It gives these lines on a radar and docile stuff,

so you can meet while it does, it goes full ended it it's being jammed at about every mode. You can possibly seek. As everything comes up in the the this aspect gets logs all kinds, I don't want to get into details, but you can tell us being jammed. So and, as you said, on rogan, by the way that jamming is an act of war, jamming, isn't when you actively jamming on a platform. Yes, it is technically an act of war feels like you should be freaking out at this point I mean so while he does it and then in the back seat, so they don't have a stick and throttle. They have what their side stick controllers. They can control all the sensors and they can just toddle around and do stuff, so he can as the ability to just move. One switch real, quick and it will go from that asthma elevation on the radar to the targeting pod will as soon as he can. the radar to look at that target. The targeting pod goes oh, what's over there and derek as it goes down. The line of sight has all the systems are hooked together. You can decouple

lambert they're going to automatically couple up so when he castles over. He with the switch, looks like a castle. Sich was a castle, so when he moves that thing to the left and he swaps the displays out- and he says instead of looking at the radar- I want to look at the targeting he sees it the targeting popular turning priority. Looking there now, isn't a passive track because he's not literally sending any energy out he's just receiving our energy from the tic tac and then the system itself will track the pixels and the contrast of gifts as it depends on what motor It says, oh and that's what those little bars you see in the video where the bars come up later bring some vit vision based tracking, that's exactly what it is So any unnecessary goes through it assumes changes the money he goes through. All the modes there's a narrow, medium and wide so widest fahrway, medium and a narrow and then there's the tv. He goes from my arm owed to the tv move that call with the tv mode is

Narrow ai r mode is only medium tv mode, so you can actually get closer with narrow tv mode. It's got a better zoom capability when you go on a tv mode, and so he goes through all those things. That's when you see it going through a black background, white bass, trying to figure out what the heck is. This well yeah. He wants to get as much data as he can on it based on the different modes instead of just staring at it. Goya is that thing and the greener the so that the video has been out. It actually was on youtube for years. And for the government released one leaked two thousand and one sell out. No, I got the guide. It was in. My back see sent me email and I had retired. So is about no cause. I was workin does work and down in, as this is about two thousand, a early two thousand nine. sends me to a strange land dot com which is not suitable. for work, I had got much and he says haste

can remedy may escape. This look familiar, and I look at em like how the hell did that get on stream. Land bad karami. So that so, you know and ends up on youtube, which was cool, because you can send a youtube linked to someone you don't in a strange land dot com to someone, because you don't know what you're going to get it's like googling kittens, and so it ends up there somehow. So it gets on youtube, which was cool because I would go out with my friends and we'd be tricky and they got to what's the coolest thing ever saw flying kind of like you are asking what it's like and I go. Oh, did I chase to your phone now I get out and I'm like, you're. So this is clearly how it happened. So sit with my friend map so mad, and I did my for he was the guy and my right seated ie six, when I did my very first night trap right and we are friends to this day right, because when you do stuff like people like that, you know you, but I had to have faith in him. He had a faith in me. You know it's there, they become like you,

brother yep, and these are guys that literally you know, I don't talk to him on a regular basis like Chris who works at apple. If, if Chris called me up tomorrow and said dude I need help. I need this I'd be like alright, let's figure this out: let's do it because it's there like family, you, you do it and most navy guys. We don't we're. Not. We don't send letters to each other weekly. You know I have friends that could I haven't talked to in ten years that they showed up on my door, but no pop bottle wine grab a beer you're a shit, take about first ten minutes to catch up and and it's it's like old times- and it's it's amazing how fast and so incredible. So I'm out to dinner with mad and I'm tellin him the store and he's like cannot hear so he goes back and he tells our friend

paco paco has a fighter sweep that it's a blog site, so parker was obsessed like he is way into. U f, o's, yet so paco calls me up, he says dude. I was talking to maddie. That's what we call him. He has us talking to mattie Hughes. Did you you got to tell me. The story saw my gary, so I spent a chunk of time, and so he calls me one day and I'm like regular voicemail hey gimme cos. I call him up and he answers the phone, but I can hear people in the background and I go hey dude. What's gonna hang a hang on. I gotta put you on speakerphone. I go. What do you put me on speaker? She got to tell the story: I'm having a dinner party, I tell the store saw he's literally having a dinner party with a cell phone in the middle of the tables. I tell a tick next to him, so he calls me up again. He says: hey, I got this blog and he just writes about fighter stuff, like he wrote about that. We call him the shit hot break. That's the guy that when you land on a carrier comes in turns and gets ready, land really fast like brakes.

Right at the back of the ship and one of the guys when we were junior officers on the. U ranger, one of the the apartment, squatters guy nasty nasty nasty, was notorious for coming in in a tomcat and crank and off the shit outbreak. right, so he he'd writ heaved. They literally road a thing about the should not break with nasty unoriginal geier. Man was are one of our landing sing losses for the airway. They just do It's just a it's a good article on how this was and how you know it. It kind of forms you a naval aviation kind of become a part of the club. So he's gonna write about this thing. Unlike what he has, I gotta write about a gallery. I go because at first I would say no, do not want the savages ever really before then talked about how much, my is. My wife did even really know the whole story. Why? Kids? This is a comment. Is it just because he caught some? Nor is just don t. What three days we had the incident for about two days they play the goofy movies they have their there's a comic on the back of the air wing schedule that they would put. It was like first, one was a far sighted. The second was

me and the guy in my back seat, and it was men in black, but it had our names. You know protecting the earth protecting the nimitz battle group type selfish, just funny shit like that, and so to me it wasn't the deal was like a kid as we're we're, never gonna know it was, and I want to get out there, because this is important, because there's all kinds of rumours are a group of folks her, No one ever came out in suits to talk to us Looking like me now came no no, it doesn't matter helicopter. No one came out on an airplane. You know you get. Oh. I was told to turn over this classified. What's funny as all the ceos several more still, the navy there's one. It is a joy he baggy just finished up. He was a captain of an aircraft carrier You know, so why up make an admiral and all that stuff? I don't. Those guys are all my friends. I talk to them daily, just just to clarify so just for people don't know theirs,

the story that both on the limits and the prince thin folks in a helicopter landed, they showed up. They took the data koran quote so all the sort of recordings, she with this incident and they took it and presumably deleted it. There's a kindness story to that and then. from what I've seen. You said that you believe, just like we were talking about offline, the jokes: I read faster than a a or just rumors spread faster than anything and and on the ships that you will. It might have been a joke that started and when they did so, here's the here's, the joke yesterday,

come down right, we had the tapes and many were Chad's tapes. So we used those tapes over and over again you know they're they're consumable, but remember I have a budget as a squadron share of a budget, so I have to buy those tapes after all, that stuff abuse, I'm accountable for and the tapes are actually classified secret because of the data that's autumn. Okay, so we had the tapes so the the secured, the intelligence guys the intel officers came down from. What's called civic, could see the I c, which is carrier intel center came down and say: hey, we need the tapes. These guys are going to come, they're going to come and get them the sorceress or like I am like our or whatever you know so we hand him. The tapes and then someone could. I have you know you know people shortly after it came and got the tapes. Someone came to me and said you know: they're they're, messing with you they're playing a joke, so I said: oh, I see how well echoes cause. You know mama seo and they're not, and so I went down to sit and I was up private use, lieutenant or a lieutenant j g swedes way junior

then I said hey, I want my tapes back in the it looks at me and I go. I know you guys are pulling my leg. I know you there's no one came out and I go and you have about thirty seconds to get me my tapes before I start tearing this place apart. That's literally what I told him, and I said, and if your boss has an issue he can come see me cause it's not going to go well I said, cause it's bullshit and I need those tapes. Then he literally walked right over to a filing cabinet. Opened it up. They weren't, safe, he'd, open up a filing cabinet pulled my hand up to me. I said, and I basically said a few things to him like don't ever fuck with me again and I left I had the tapes the snow one came out, there's no flying going on when all this is happening and I took the tapes back and then I copied the tapes. so I took to brand new eight mill tapes and I copied the sections that I want so there's a rumour to that oh the original, flew videos, ten minutes long and or some one of these petty offers. A saint. I saw its total crap leave video is about a minute thirty seconds, long, what you see down there.

He's video is the entire video to you. I have mentioned, I apologise if I say stupid things, prison I are for you. You have mentioned that at like on rogan. I think that you watched it on. You know on a bigger screen. It felt like was higher definition. So let me ask the question: is the higher definition version? Do you think of the clear view, yeah. That would give us more pixels and more information, presumably because of the. without it, because I don't where the stuff at the government released where they got okay, so the stuff it was on strain. anne and youtube you're. Someone pulled off of a secret its. It looks like a rack there's tape machines in there and it gets converted to digital and stored on hard drive and they pulled it off that hard drive and they put it on youtube. I know it's it's just like you know anytime. Even a digital media, the more you copy digital media there. Some volume disintegrates so the scene how many times has been copied. So we were

looking at the videos, I've seen a right off the original, their high tapes. It's basically pulled off the back of the displaced. That's not film, with cameras, its literally a digital feed, its off the back and put onto a high eight tape, that's how the recorders work. Now, it's actually digital digital. It's not even on tapes, anymore elites, it's a digital recording system, but we are still in the process of slowly up because originally had little cameras here that shines off the light hit would wash out the displays. So this is a pretty good indeed- and would you put it on somewhere instead of looking at it on your tiny little computer monitor or whatever I'm looking at it on a nineteen inch, because it was still normal tv's back there we just put flat screens in a radium that I had bought, so we could watch movies so cause a nice huge nineteen inch screen, his, maybe twenty nice wow as huge the gigantic get for like fifty bucks in like sixty unjust, and this is two thousand fire

Oh see, look at this big thing and you could see so when you get to the tv mode, when I say there's little things coming out of the bottom of it, you could see those. It was very clear, but in terms of the actual visual on the tic tag was a dude. Did you get much more information from hired from the clear little things out of the bottom. we did the automobile nation that guy. So when you see it because he's coming almost co altitude with it, you can see the bottom up and it looks like little. You know like if you look at a session, there's antennas hanging on the bottom colleagues that there is too little things out. A bottom there's nothin on top, there's, no plume, no, I are no no visible proportions. Even heat signature. You know it's. that stuff and and the other thing that people didn't see as they didn't see the the radar display which that that really raises a classification of especially to see what the radar does when it's being gen

I mean on a matter of fact when they did the unofficial official investigation in about two thousand and let me think about two thousand and nine, and I got a call, my cellphone from a guy who government, employ and said: hey told me who he was he still in the garment or I'm friends with him, and he said: hey we're good investigate your tiktok thing. This is litter. If five years later yeah five years later- and I said ok or whatever, and he did a pretty good job. I caught the unofficial official report because, and it was really never official it wasn't it, but I'll give you a history of why I say that and why it never came out in foia requests. So he does the report. He sent me the report and all he said is hey. I'm going and his report. Please don't distribute this report. I said ok. The report is now out because Harry reed gotta to george nap and they were good enough to adapt. There's a few versions.

but on rejected and I'm very protective of the other people that were involved in this. So Jim has talk but he's off the grid. He doesn't talk any one now, the pilot of his airplane she has, come out on unidentified, but they dont release her name? Although people start to do it and she's had weird shit happens on how she's got kids, you know so I'm very protective of her and I've told people I Jeremy, in georgia, if I know that the names ever came from you, I will never talk to you again about this and Jeremy's been really good about it, and so is george and then but george George new names work as he had. He got the report from senator it and any other crew so that other pilot of the airplane. It took the video that Chad was in. If you talk to that individual. They rode on I have the recollection, they were just out flying that day and it wasn't a big deal, and so it's it's you you need to protect cause. Not everyone wants people knocking. I don't want people knocking on my door,

and iran in theirs rumours are. You talked to everyone. I think you're about the twenty third person that I've talked to total includes the you know the newspapers and stuff not been selective, because her so much I mean if I turn down like I turned on russian tv I think of you her name when we're done here, she called she not only called me. She called my wife. She called my daughter. She called my son and she called my son because they're persistent, so I'm I'm pretty protected I am very particular. I mean the reason I'm talking to you is because I knew we would have a conversation that wasn't based just on a tic tac any incident, but we could actually talk about some of the science and some of the theoretical to get into to get more people involved to go cause. I think, there's you know When you talk to you know Lou elizondo or chris melon. You know the group at TT essay other. That whole thing was yes, I that's two stars academy: can that's the Tom delonge longer pic? I started so

in any go well in august. The item has call on a crap for this, but is actually when you talk, homies he's he's version and I asked him- how do you get into this and he goes oh when I was travel rapid blink one eighty two you read a books when you're laying in a as you're into your next gig before make it big and he goes the rare he was reading books and he read one of them on your foes. I'm trying to think the title is one of the big ones. It's out there real popular, and so he started just he started asking more and through his fame with blink one. Eighty two in the band he got more and more connected. You know if you talked to Chris Mellon, who is an under secretary of defense for intelligence and as part of the melon, you know dynasty, you know from carnegie mellon type, a very, very smart. He he knows he'd he'd be. He definitely knows how the government works because he worked. There are men. So when I went down to dc to talk to people,

he's one of the first people I'll go to when I did Tucker Carlson about a month ago, month and a half ago- and I ask nike- I he texts me- I I text him Tom Lou to go hey because they were like he gotta do it because I turned I turned tucker down a couple of times before and his or his producer had called me and I'm like alright I'll. Do it, because those like like you got it. You gotta do is force so for my respect to disagree with some context. So to me there seems to be some stigma from the scientific community- and I really appreciate you talking to me today and I think that people who listen to this includes you know I love faculty fellows guilty at mit and major universities, and it feels like there's some stigma to this subject from from the scientific community. a lot of people, especially when they hear your story like was really interesting, but it

don't even know you one you're afraid to talk about it. And to you don't know, the next steps are like. How can we seriously try to think about what you saw? How to think about how we further look for things like it? How we develop systems and plans for how in the future, we can immediately collect a lot more data and tried to react properly. Yoda tragic munich. He tried to interpret this in in the best way possible from the scientific perspective, and I I just would love to remove the stigma from this subject.

Well, I think that's the first step we have done in this country an absolutely terrible job with these things, so you go and I a joker you know, go back to roswell. So the first reports it came out of roswell was we have this crash flying saucer, that's literally what came out and then magically the next day. It's a weather, balloon and they're shown your pieces of mylar and he go while that doesn't look like what they showed us yesterday, then you get into project blue book. He knows, there's that whole series about project bluebook, but the bottom line of project blue book is it really did two things it investigated sightings and it did everything it could to debunk and disprove to the point where it actually went to discredit. You know to make you look. So there's always been this. This subtle of you call in or around it or a mystique about you ufos if you're talking about them, they're nuts, with because I'm not I'm not a you ve, not. Are you a full guy, a junkie? If you me? Do I believe that there is life outside of earth? I would say the you probably have a bit

Chance of winning the mega ball lottery then worthy only planet that has life on it in the universe? It just the odds, are against it on euro. If you do just do the math, we have to accept because it is their only has to be one other planet that has life on it. And then I win and you lose and a more more more science has shown that there's habitable planets out there that. Yet, and everything we've learned so far. We know very little, but everything we've learned so far about the planets out there exoplanets earth like planets. It seems that it's very likely that there's life out there intelligent life is another topic, but life we. We ass humans in oh and even more as american, ria this hubris about as the says. we are at an ego, so much everywhere, not so intelligent time, because we are such as to how we learn

you know our main mode of transportation and what people figured out you know years ago was the internal combustion engine which led us to jet engines and and saw a rocket fuel what a fear and their planet. Were you didn't? You figured out the ability to cry, in the gravity field or you used, you know cause electromagnetics are becoming bigger and bigger and bigger. You know, catapults on ships were steam powered and the new gerald ford is electromagnetic roller coasters used to the chain to get you the top of the hill ny they shoot you with electromagnetics and you're going a whole new roma propulsion. Doubt you know. Sometimes it's our ability to develop the technology. Disport theory: in a week just now proving in a recently theories I had were people actually joked about him, and now we actually have the technology to prove that gravity can bend light. You know we have proven that so If you look at that, when you go well, does that mean you know seventy years you Einstein was wrong or eight years ago, since I was wrong or do we just didn't, have the ability to look that deep into space to actually find something

We could to actually measure in on a scene and that's just one hundred years and that kind of things the cabinet, look what we've done in the last twenty years. Yes, crazy. I limit the dracula because it's such an interesting topic from a career perspective from a size perspective you're I mean you've spoke you've been brave. It's you know telling your story, not some dramatic thing, but just telling you, the things you've seen did encounter it didn't impact your career? Is that why more people haven't come out? I got I mention roswell like how what advice do you give to people to the community to me as a scientist for ways to go forward about this topic and still have a you know,

not being put in a bin in society that he's a loon or she's a loon, or that person is to get away from the little green men. The divorced, the two little green men And you know and have talked to Lou elizondo about this. You know and and the group that they're working with, which is incredible, I mean they've got steve justice who used to run skunk works where they built, no projects elizardo, as you mentioned was mentioned, was programmed director. He ran aid programme at the panic and eighty was a programme that was tasked with investigating any kind of you. Your falls, you a piece. So what's funny, as the unofficial official report that I joke about the guy, road. The unofficial official report was actually an original member of a tip, and the original stuff that eight it did was voice exempt and people are. How do you know cause? I stood there with the memo. In my hand, that said these are dead letter. I watch the memo that set it and it sign, so he was once so that's why

that's why I call it the unofficial official port. It was never, it was never releasable, because people go, I put in a foyer question. I didn't get that. I go just because you put in the foyer quest and get I go because how much? How much time do you think that guy is going to spend to get you the information you requested? If you can't find it, I actually got called by the navy I had a commander in the navy call me about to right. Before the article came out in the new york times it was. This was starting to come back and she had called me cause. There's men, there was a foyer requests for stuff about This incident- and I said, do you know of any thing she called me because you know of anything else. Besides the the situation reports that come off the ship, In your end, you gotta remember when the situation before it comes off the ship. That's like third hand, so we tell someone they tell someone that person has to write it up. So there's all kinds of inaccuracies in it. But then there's the unofficial, fresh report that is actually pretty well written. There's some errors in it, but it was. You know I didn't help write it. I just did and he did a really good job of researching,

in figuring out who's who, in the zoo and the players, and so she called me and said, is there anything out there and I said officially out there she said. Yes, I said I don't anything. I knew of the unofficial official report, which is that one, but I'm not you know if you don't know about, I'm not going to tell you cause it's not my job, and nor did I care, I mean did in that whole situation. You mentioned lube ain't. Did you think about your impact to your career like it just to get back to the question: did you think others other pilots, others? Thing that other people like in the roosevelts are thinking about this kind of thing. Why aren't they talking about this? Why people are afraid to talk about this? Well, honestly, the the military and the press there's a distrust I'll. Just tell you that right now, where we typically don't like talking to the press, because if I talk to you, you know, especially when I do even the tv shows you know, I've been on a couple shows: When you look at you, you know they come to my house. They fill me for two hours and then

We all feel a serene is five minutes or and the other thing with oppress them. He give you my perspective from autonomous vehicles. Is the clipping happens? Yes, but also the incompetence, images college or the hit they're. Not thinking d, I mean did so here's the thing I've ever phd and I've taken painfully to many classes from that. Like physics, math and out of a deep curiosity about the world? I've read a lot. That's you see, missy were journals and see talking to a person who is not going to push the story forward:

interesting way, not the story, but the actual investigation of are perhaps one of the most amazing things that humans have witness in history. You, it might have been nothing, but who knows what you witness might have been from a sort of debunking perspective might have been some kind of trick of mind if you and others have hallucinated something that could be some simple explanation. But possibly it was something not of this world and to not do justice to this story from a scientific perspective, it seems at best negligence, and so we out that's true for a journalist is true for this. I e

it's just a huge human nature if weak, if we care, if we see something that we can explain, then sometimes, if you just there, maybe just me and you let it go away, and you don't think about it. You know maybe it'll just it. Do you know what should you it's you ignore it The other side is the inquisitive minus says. Well, what was it and I want to? I want to dig more into it. You know, and a few you you could it or you going against the norm? You can get ostracizing know and if you look at in on einstein's the perfect example, maybe he started come out with some his theories some. The top physicists in the world were like duty if you're not job, and he said, literally proving them, He didn't have you know he proved him in theory. but he didn't have the means to actually do the experiment to prove his theory has great book that our common people read called proving. I stand right by Jim gates that talks about like

the hard work that people try to do years after they tried to experimentally, validate the addictions their eyes I made without the theories his fast eddie. Oh yes, at the time is kind of crazy when he saying, yeah? But if you look at it back at the time, don't we we look at it now and go well. The guy was a walking genius and he was. But if you go back in time when he was doing it. It was like what are you talking about. You know, but one of the challenges. Is he- your eye witness one of the challenges this year. Essentially an witness account like we don't have good data We have very limited data of of the incident that you've experienced. So let me kind of dig in. Let me just ask some questions of and maybe to see, if there's just the paint more and more of the picture, one you kind of mentioned to take tack, shape, let's break apart

two situations. One is the video. Let's look at the actual. I count the eye, witness account that you saw with your own eyes. What's the? What can you say about the shape of the thing? Is there interesting aspects outside of the tic tac like? Is there any pending judges is there some texture to it that no smooth white ticket I think we all use movie, there's no, no wings, no visible propulsion no windows will probes. That weakens We don't notice, like I said we all see the little things on the bottom of it until we see the video in tv mode when it zoomed in bright for it? Surely you kind of seem zoom in you, don't see it typically on the youtube stuff, that's out there you, remember, looking at the original tape, say, there's not did the nearest. Basically, no digression, but when you saw you as is no kind of appendage now,

about like somebody s a lot of people ass, you question, so You spend time here. Let me ask some of them Did you mean you chased it, so we feel close to it relatively speaking. Was there did you feel? Any wake like any. Did you feel in any way in terms of veer, interacts like air dynamically? No, nothing, nothing! So another aspect of it does an interesting thing. You ve developed, feel forth for objects in the air. did you feel like it was surprised by your arrival or did it. Let me ask a few questions around it. So did you did it feel like the thing was surprised, did it feel like it wanted to be seen almost to show off, it's capability did

and did what it feels like relative to. If you were doing, I am an air fight against us, a foreign jet, so one I think it. I think I knew we were there when we showed up just like me it's kind of like an animal if you've ever been around deer in a field? You know the deer or look up and if it sees you when you're on the other side of the field, it'll actually go no threat and it'll start eating. You know they don't put their tail up as you move closer to the Then it goes. Oh, it's there and I'm gonna to react. I'm gonna move so as we, we're a pie and it's down doing whatever it was doing. You know what danilo someone asked: what do you think? I know? Maybe it's communicating with something I joked on good morning, america. Maybe it's like talking to the whales kind of like star trek, you know and actually use that clip was kind of fun. But they were a little human centric were we think like you. Would it be a short talk to us, but maybe

talking to the dolphin, maybe studios whatever you know, because it was hanging around that whitewater and I dunno if it was or something there was a sema. We just didn't find it again. I dunno, but once we started to descend it actually reorient its its longitudinal axis and it started mirroring us coming up. Then it was obviously where we were there and it was really coming up just you know you figure I'm at twenty and it's coming up and it ends up getting up to twelve, where I cut across circle was very aware that we were there because it interacted we caught up to circle fight when you find another airplane, but you know it was it was Were we afraid I don't think so I mean and to me it was more curious. Curiosity overcomes any fear that you would have, and I always felt it to be honest,

If I was inside the airplane, especially as long as much time as I'd spent inside the airplane flying and doing stuff, I felt totally it was like a safe zone. I mean I, I felt totally comfortable inside the airplane. As most part, you can't, if you're in the airplane- and you feel scared- it's not the job for you if you have to feel that, because the airplane is part of you now, if you know I am inside, I have the stick. I have the throttles. I've got my window in the back seat, he's running all the displays. We are a team wherein the state of the art airplane, you know brand new, you feel pretty good and then you get something that you know can climb from the surface up and and accelerate like it did like. It was like no big deal. You know for an airplane. If, if you just put me from a stance, let's say slow flight, just get me at one hundred knots above the water and for me to you can't just start a climb. I'd have to lower the nose, I'd have to accelerate, and then I have to

coming up in this thing, just like just didn't like it was like no big deal. Get you mentioned that like of your reaction to it. Was it like it's something that you would love to fly almost this object. Just the curiosity experiences like like what it almost like. What the heck is that piece of technology- and I want to fly it like what made you feel like it's something that you could fly. Do you think it's something that a human could fly like in terms of interpreting what you saw as a piece of tech,

ecology is another perspective on it is. It was not it that the thing under the water was the key thing and what you were seeing is some kind of projection or something that, like, I don't think it was a projection. I think it was real object, is an art, a physical, hard object that could be f. Flied, oh yeah yeah. I think all four of us. It isn't me it wasn't it wasn't. This was not because you go, ok, let's just go and if it's a light projection well, we were both sit next to each other. We are looking at it from the exact same angle and all that I go out. Ok, there's a d in theory you Heather, but with an eight thousand foot altitude friends flying you know and, as you know, she's probably not directly. Above me, she's gonna hanging out watching this whole thing happen. You know you're getting two different perspectives from too different altitudes over a clear blue. You know if you've ever been at Sea- and I don't mean like coastline- when you get out at sea. The ocean is the bluest. It's incredible

You got bright white object over a deep blue ocean. They get pretty high contrast and for this thing, just disappear it was I'm tonia. I would I mean. I know we. We all have the same recollection of what happened in other some details because it so long ago, but for the most part we know what we so we all came back and looked at each other, like what the hell was that what if you think about The thing under the water is not often talked about. Something out of the water couldn't have been something gigantic fix, daddy the view of the abyss. big shipping lanes eyes of persons. I love like swimming

into the ocean by miles and olympic swimmers like I love that feeling, but I'm also terrified when I swim, because the abyss it can be anything can be under there. I like there's not enough focus on that. Perhaps because there's no visibility but is, is there anything interesting to say about the possibly there was anything underneath there could be. I mean think about if you're going to hide on this planet, where she puts the least lords, what on the planet, two thirds of it's the ocean users. There's there's literally I mean that the the the malaysia airplane the the triple seven. He was triple seven that crashed. You know they turn. didn't go where they're supposed to and I just disappeared and they ve been searching for it and they found pieces of it, but think there's large objects that do you know anything hit the water depending heart broke up, there's big pieces that would be find something they haven't found anything except what floated

it ought to hide something underwater water, I think, would be easy. So, ok, let's go a little bit speculation land, but it's the best, that's the best we can do, which is the basic question of what do you think? Was it severe to put money on it? Is it like advanced human created technology? Is it alien technology? Is it an unknown physical phenomena you know like a ball. I mean, for example, that a lot of fascinating You don't really understand is it. I guess said some perception, cod edition that laid you some kind of hallucination, a major to misinterpret the things you were saying, put those things on the table or is it misinterpretation? some known physical phenomena like like an ice clouded like that. What was stuff I had only gets an ice cloud because ice close not fly around and react to you

Do I think it was a light I'd say no because of the aspects of what we looked and watch to do. I'd say you know what I mean by light. Like a light ball, you know. Some type of section you others there You're like plasma, you can, yes do plasma and you go. I can see it, but it's really not. You know. It's plasma, I don't think so, so the distortions, I think is move. Maybe not I mean I'm not to theoretical physicist and some you know I'm not in mit. Ah, I would say no, I mean it looked for from all my experience and and and I quite a bit of the when this happen. Nine eight. I think it was a. It was a hard object. It be aware that we were there, it reacted exactly like a thousand other airplane and I had to come up and do something exactly what I would do. You know it mere We do wasn't aggressive in others. Taco it fought behind.

This and every was never offensive on us. It never did at it. Just mirrored us so we're coming on its just like yo, you're, you're gonna you know, you said you do martial arts in our rustling. In I see people out of the year. Into the ring, especially with collegiate wrestling cause. My roommate in college was a collegiate wrestler, so I de facto became a wrestler cause. He he beat me up. Every night yeah we joke, I talked to him literally pry three four times a week. But you know you see wrestlers when they get out the kind of you're kind of feeling charge. Walk boxes do the same thing. It was doing that same thing, it's like what's going on as it comes around as it comes around and and he was like hey we're gonna get here and when I get too close to it I decided I'm out of here and in it it did something that we've never seen. The other question is what, if I didn't cut across the circle, what if I just kept going around a circle. We'll just keep downright out. I'm just watch me, my wonder, grew out of the whole thing is we have a care? we're in our home in the joint homer, there's little camera

but we never use it because it's nauseated wash watch put a go prawn, someone's head were there looking around like this all the time, it'll it'll nauseate, so we never turn that on and all you know it's. The one thing I didn't do is reached down and hit the switch you know, and then we didn't go back and because our tapes didn't have anything because we didn't get it on radar and because I tried to lock it up cause. I can move the radar with my head, but I couldn't it wouldn't lock the reader would lock, and so so then the question is- and this is unanswerable, but let's try does he get some hints at it? Do you think his human, like advanced human created technology, that's simply top secret that we're just not aware of, or is it not something not of this world? So you, if you to ask me in two thousand for medicine, I don't know. if you ask me now so we're coming up on six in years ago.

For a technology like that fino and lets us. him that it didn't have a conventional propulsion system in it cause. I don't think it did. I. I would like to think that if we had a technology would advance mankind. leaps and bounds from what we normally do. Then it would start coming out, but to hide something like that for sixteen years It's you know, and I understand you know, and I don't speak pretty nice it's government, I never will speak for the united states government, but I understand how some of that stuff works for classification levels and why we classify stuff you know is it? Is it detrimental to national defense, but there's a point where you have to Looking! Oh! If we had a technology like this, that could literally changed the way mankind travels, how we get things into space, our ability to do things you know you about. You know, are we gonna go to mars? Will if you have something that has the ability to go, because normally things were and down when the cruiser tracked him from above eighty thousand feet, which is space and it would come down and they would come straight down, they hang out like twenty thousand feet and then through for our slow, they go back up we'll have

anything that can come down hang out and once you know get in and I'm talkin hold out a spot we all know. There's winds are not drifting like a balloon, are just sitting there and then they would go back up in a tract up to the current. When I talked to the controller he's like we ve seen up to ten of these things, there's other guys in it was raining and all the seller, but you say they tracked. Groups of these things coming down hanging out and going up societies propulsion. and the way moves this also fuel its everything, so the horse the whole that indicates a kind of technology that some highly advanced, but you don't think in your sense. No, you actually don't know, but you know more than a lot of people. In your sense, the top secret military technology fitting was conquered. Think about like that cannot be more than fifteen years ahead.

and I would lay for a leap like that in a perfect example. In modern times is the one seventeen because now a lot of the data on the one seventeen is out like it was developed at this time. It flew for this long before actually acknowledged by the united states. Government was the ones I think, that's the stuff fighter, the original self, whether or not to be too self fighters. If you look at that, you know yeah, you can. I think you can hide things for awhile, but I think a technology, a leapt. I mean this is not. This is not a hey. We developed this and we're kind of pushing the edge of technology. This is a giant leap in technology. You know and the other one is do we have the basis to do that. You know, because usually, when you have a technology like that universities, especially the one you're working at mit

a lot of the leading edge stuff is coming out of the top tier universities. No see you got mit, you ve got caltech, you ve got stand for george attack, virginia attack, carnegie melon, I'm just name in schools, naval, postgraduate schools and other one there's. Usually indicators are papers of hey. This is where we're going. I don't think, there's a whole bunch of papers on developing a gravity based propulsion system- that literally I've got an object, because how do you, how much power would it cost to create a gravity field of your own? That could actually be strong enough to counter the giant orb that we live on so by the way you mentioned, gravity based, that's kind of like the hypothesizing that people do in terms of propulsion like what kind of propulsion would have to would have to be involved in order to result in that kind of movement. To me all the gravity, discussions just seems insane from physics perspective, but of course,.

It would seem insane until it's not, but we could member. We only know what we know and I an end which is very low as someone had to think out of the box to go, is this possible at all, while august This is all year you're saying that if you had to bet money all your money, it will be something that's alien technology says not human, technology. I don't like to get into little green men, but I would say that I don't. thank you. You wanna go man right. I don't think we're developed that I just because the other one someone asked me they said what, if there wasn't it, maybe it was just a drone. Maybe it was a you, a the that got sent here from someplace else. I mean we've got stuff out there flying around, and so I don't

Well, no, I mean I'd like to sit around and talk to some of the the giant brains that think this stuff up are supposed to be on a podcast with one of 'em up but such topic, which you mean the for drones for or just to just space. old technology, because if you look at where we're going, you know cause I'm one talks about mars. He ok in any new worked here, retail the colonise. You know- and I know you on his big into that waste aims of reading, while yawns basics nasa we put humans back back up their life leary? So it's funny cause. I ain't. I know one of the guys it was use one of the original employees, that space and he's a friend of Mine- and I would say same, but he knows elon here he knows elon and ah yeah and he actually worked on the entire falcon one project he's one of the guys on that. So he's got some great

great hipster matter of fact he's. There's a movie there's book coming out that comes out in about a year on this, the original, the first years of space for six years of spacex, a known he's named in the book they're supposed to make a movie on it. So I'm like hey who's going to seattle. But what he's done to me? It changed the game and here's because I said you know in any think it was sixty two and eisenhower warn of the industrial defence complex. You know which it is. come everything he warned us of you know it has become in it. really driven by sitters the big three the indifference which is really in a northrop lockheed and boeing is that those are the big. Those are your base and raytheon's kind of right alla, like a subset of that, but their radiance predictable in? U s defense, those big eyes right was actually were allowed. A military guys go when they retire. They go suffolk that some

when you look at that and you go in the way government contracting is working and how we charge and in a way things cost so much and then you go. We got Ellen Who's got an ego, He doesn't like to do things certain way, and I've talked to the guy that work there on you cause a government likes to have oversight of contract, where he was like now, Tell me what you want I'll build and I'll give you a bill when it's done and then, if I do it for half the price, I make a ton of money because peace, money driven guy, which I like capitalism at its best, and so now you look at the two things, so you got the the space acts, which is the dragon capsule right and then you ve got boeing. So e did what boeing has contracted to do in less time for half the money and oh by the way, because he can, reuse, the boosters cause they come back and land and you don't have to like Morton Thiokol. We reuse them on the space shuttle, but they had to take mall par and do a bunch of stuff cause. They landed in salt water and he had to put them all back together where

you're getting down, because I was joking diskiver. What would I do they like reap rehab? in overwhelming is no actually they clean up and they can use again reusable systems increase. belief in technology that no one thought of, but here's a private company so being able to put people on and a capsule and the spacesuits. I mean it's literally like sci fi when you watch when they went up so I'm a huge fan of what he and here are some eleven able to do, because you know the fact that we were paying huge amounts of money to the in government. You know and oh by the way, if you didn't know cause, I have some friends that are astronauts. They are I'll, have to learn russian writer they have and they have to do it's. What level five were the test as a phone call where they call you up and ass. You know cause they would go. So I went to the pity into two friends of mine, the one actually had a mission to the one got one later so cool. When you're watching your friends do spacewalk, you know cause, I would pull up

I knew it was gone on. I pull up the nasa thing as an a meeting one day and I've got nasa on and and makers out there floating around. You know doing stuff, and I saw one he's in the space station why they're doing a spacewalk, so it's kind of cool when you go. I know that duties up there in space floating around, and so when you, when you look at what those there are capable of doing and then you go what elon is bringing to the fact that now it's back in america, it's actually to me it's it's cost effect for us to be able to do more stuff. I think it opens the door to do we go back to the moon is a reason to go back to the moon. Personally, I think if we If there really gonna go. You know in years, now go to mars. I think that the moon is the stepping stone to go back to start proving some of the technology to go, hey we can build we can get on the moon, and now we can get back off the moon, because we did this honour less than a compact computer in the Sixtys, which is the whole reason I flew cause. I'm obsessed fact: I have the giant lag

apollo at home in a lander, and I have one that my dad built me in nineteen sixty nine right after that, a neil armstrong's in ohio boy, and so am I I have a picture of him in a bar and wipe it can at at the prayed every walked on the moon cause. His parents did live after my aunt and uncle in Wapakoneta, and they a round at the parade so b, I've been obsessed with this, since I was a child. Do you hope to? I do think. Do you hope, that you got the space one day. Me, if they, if I had the opportunity, I go in a second. I am not. I mean that's one of the hopes of the commercial space flight is that you know like people like me. A would be to us tourism, but is certainly one wanna in terms of you know, kind of a civilian right. I mean a sense that you're ingesting I'm a person, you notified your pilot currently, but he seems like if we send a civilian, they'll, be somebody like you in the next like twenty years. I'd be

I feel I want to throw me a lot of things. I'd be all over. My wife would say, but you know sometimes you gotta get you x Y you're alive about to hear that scan your wife. Was it there's the pros and cons, she's cheesy I've noticed onboard high school a sheet, as she knows how I am now most people that know me are like yeah you're, pretty much the same person you were in high school, I was, I was the class clown and I still am that way, and so let me ask you: granting about so talking to you on again soon im curious to get your perspective on it. If I wanted to talk to him about tik, tak about these weird out there propulsion ideas, which are obviously just like you said, if there's something to it, if it can be,

I think it is somehow it would be extremely useful for us to understand in the effort of developing propulsion systems they can get as cheaply to out the space. What what should you on think about the stuff? What should he do? What should people like him? I think you ll need opener aperture up and stay off of it take the next step and go in a. We are tied to fuels in either solid rocket. Why don't you ever do, but it's a thrust generated. Were we rapidly expand gas to create thrust? It is really gonna say in layman's terms. You know wynkyn into what, but did that's what it does. If you have something that you can contain, that is as a fuel source. It would last a significant amount of time in over those rocket boosters go and when their down there done there's enough to get him back down. That's it there's not a

huge, you know not coming back and go wow. I still got three quarters of a tank, let's pull them on and do it again his systems not doing that, but You know the way the way contracting, especially in a government. A government has tons of money but you gotta remember that the government has to justify how they spend our tax dollars for the most part three times where they can hide money in the budget to get stuff done but then, when you look at I'm just gonna throw you out there. But if you look at What amazon you know, with basis and you ve got you on their some there's some big money out there. They remained near talking in a basis alone could by companies like big companies, apples another one of these companies at huge huge amounts of money and just go over to the gates foundation and they ve got the gazillion zillions of dollars. We ve got universities her so much money on there

We really wanted to do it aside from what the government wants to do, because we do live in a free society. I think there's enough to go the, how do we do this and because, when you work outside of what the government would want to do less and less letter, they were not working on this necessarily for the united states. Although I am a huge giant I will be america, I would never yeah. I am an american talking to somebody for him, so he said I can't believe he agreed to this, but but what No, I haven't, kill me if you're here were you ve, been here for a while and unwelcome american citizen. I am actually pretty much american when you do that. You look at let's just like an american universities, so there's some brilliant minds. just use em, I take, as you were, doubled. There's some britain mind, but there's a huge chunk of those brilliant mines at are not american citizen. So if you want to get into governments and you are not an american citizen- gets really really really hard. But if I

take money like basis money, your money and they what you say they want to work together. They can split it up. Fifty fifty the two of em when the technologies develop, but now I'm not constrained by who has to do the work. I just want to make sure that I try and keep it in the united states because technologies, technology and if it gets developed and gets over to where you know a country gets hold of it and then just basically uses it for their own. Because you save me, research time. You don't want to do that, but if we can get to the point where Can we do it on international space station? We realise a space was too expensive for one country to do alone. so, we may the international space station and we have. Conglomerate. It's the one thing that russians and the? U s actually worked together on think about it. It's it. We worked together on space because we realise its way too expensive rusty do alone and effective. So we ve got this thing this, but not their float around for god. Now what is it like? Twenty years that things went up their phone around, so it's getting old, we're after,

place parts and do stuff, but if we can pull the money together and come up with a something that would literally change mankind and change travel and allow us to actually do a bit more effective thing of exploring cause. Have you developed that technology? I'm not you, you don't even have to send a man person if you can develop, the technology that so with our automation and were progressing in our are competing power to send something out did not just floating around when you know they can react lot quicker, something that could actually go down to the surface and come back. So right now everything we get out of mars. It goes down there and it just sends data back yet and analyzes, but I've got a technology that can go up there. Really im, not worried about man, I don't have life support systems and all that, but it can go down, it can go it can cruise around. It can hover above it can take samples and it can actually take martian soil and bring it back

we can eliza. Here, though, it that's the name change, we have to complete game changer because it opens up all the planet's exactly so, in the sense that the tick tack is a symbol. So whatever you think However, from a debunking perspective, is a non zero probability that its alien technology and in that sense it serves as a beacon of hope and a reason to, You said, widen the aperture and to invest big amounts of money into thinking outside the box, like it's almost a hope to say we can do better propulsion, we can overcome physics in an order of magnitude better way and it's worth while to try think, and I don't think the money. If you look at the big picture with amount of money, some that's out author float around these private companies in ireland. if you said, have got, but you say a hundred million dollars

Really a hundred million dollars relative to bases has got one hundred in some billion dollars. You weren't, so he said he a hundred a hunter a million dollars, you drop one hundred million dollars and I go and I'm gonna put a you know like the government, wilson of a broad area announcement outta says: hey we're looking for this technology or a darpa program. But what, if I just said, hey who who's stop bezos and elon from doing that on their own to say, hey, I want to go pool universities cause. They have fewer restrictions because it's not tax dollars, they don't have the checksum I think do whatever they want their money up. Sorry about that and to go hey, I'm gonna put this out and I'm going to get the best physicists that are working at CERN that are at mit that are at caltech at the schools I mentioned and and oh by the way few. These guys are propulsion experts and I'm going to basically. I'm going to fund you guys for ten years, so you get ten million dollars a year and I'm going to give your salaries and we're going to do that or whatever the amount works. Let's cut it down to five, so we can pay well right

Do the research, but, oh by the way, the research is it's not classified, but it's controlled. So we're not going to publicly just put this out in journals, but if we make a leap that we think would advance because, although those let's say there's ten of 'em those ten science, it's come up with something and they put out a paper. There might be another one, a number eleven at another university that reads that paper and says: hey, I kind of had this idea, and now you can get a thought pool that pushes us in and gets us out of the the mindset cause. We have a tendency to. We evolve the stuff that we create, but it's like, I was joking because you know I, I know a ton of guys with phds and girls. And I said, but you know how much when a person gets a phd. Unlike engineer how much new math is really being done. I said: there's a handful of people in the world that are really do and I'm talkin, I'm talkin stephen hawkins type brilliance that is gone. I'm really doing something nets, yet that's only differ as a big.

Dramatic thing now going on in physics that ever did is just everybody's converge towards his local minima or local maxima. If you think about it, and it's it's again same as with the tic tac thinking outside the box is not Is not accepted and probably should be, but it goes heart because if you go back go back to einstein they actually regional, he was the. He was out the box. He did not think that an orgy and you have not thought out of the box and came up with some of his theories. Where would we be ok, we're jumping around a little bit so thoughtfully what about you learn and mars in space. But let's let me come back to a few questions. The folks had. I have the kind of bring up some debunking stuff because I think not the actual idea

The actual facts of the debunking, but the nature of the true believers vs, the debunkers- hurts my heart a little bit because people are just talking past each other, but let me kind of bring it up and make west I've just recently started pay attention. just in preparing to talk to you about this world and nicholas is one of the better known people who carry mixer. Career out of trying to debunk said of his or his natural approach to all situations is that of a skeptic. I think it's it's very useful and powerful, especially for me coming from a scientific perspective to take the approach. He does it's valuable and I think, no matter what I think I hope that people quote unquote. True, believers are a little bit more open minded to the work of miguel. A thing is quite useful and brilliant work. So let me out.

he's a bunch of videos, a bunch of ideas, or he kind of suggest possible, other explanations of the things they were out there. He has some excellent some of the things that you ve seen in it would the tick tock like with your eyes like he says that it's possible, the? U miscalculated the size and the distance of the thing, and so on, when you're flying that. I don't find that. As a I mean, maybe you can comment on that. Let me do it right now sure so cause that comes up like how. But how did you know it was about forty feet long? I go okay, so sixteen years finding, and so the airplanes know what stuff looks like I've looked down on things. So, if I know I know, here's the gnome things I know when we saw the ticket I was at twenty thousand feet- psh regular, so down. I know what a hornet looks like looking down on him. Cause I've done it for all those years. I mean I got a good idea, so that's that's. Why said forty feet as spot porn sites?

So and as I go around you, you get to the point where you have to be able to judge distance when we fly out of experience, and you can tell us something smaller big. You know So I would argue effective you no peer experiences. You know that. professional observers, which is what we are actually trained to do them and having on it for so long now it was in every one came back with us, they may again about size or it from a human factors. Perspective How often in your experience of those sixteen years, do you find that eyes? Would what you see is the incorrect state of things? So I call often they make mistakes. with vision. You actually you you may vision issues a lot because here and sat parties is your brain believes. What your eyes see we are actually trained to do the opposite of that, especially when you instrument fly because,

brain, and I can tell you one thing, but you gotta treasure inferences: let's go back to landing at night so your I do that the atlanta lie. That's the doom that the runway in your brain assumes that the runways fix You know that the runways moving. So if I try and do so, visually? I would you die every time, but not every time, but you'd die closed every time trying to land on a boat. So we actually use instruments which are counter to your brain so and there is actually all kinds of things that we go through and training they have this thing they still use. It it's called mst de maltese, spatial, disorientation device or the spin and puke or it looks like a giant carousel and your in these little modules, and when you get out, you think the thing goes really fast and akin you can make yourself think that I'm descending are climbing, but we are actually. only going around in circles at a very slow rate as fast as human can talk, but is there spinning around in a little something and slow it down a speeded up. Your body does this and you

you know and then by visuals of showing you like, they can spinnet sideways so the outside wall, but they can show like lines that are they can make the line standstill. Cars are moving the same velocity moving the other way and you'll think you're screaming you see it in amusement parks all the time and you do all that because it gives you a sense of the but you really not doing you're sitting there. We train our stuff. So if you, If you want to look at and go while you're you're disoriented or this I beleive I'd argue going. No, I'm not because you know when I'm flying the airplane, even as I'm looking at the tic tac, I've got a heads up display. That tells me what my airplanes doing so I've got I know what I'm doing I can look outside. I got a sense of what I'm doing, but I am also looking inside to cross check of one I'm seeing is in reality, what I'm doing you actually your brain gun, good at combining almost adding extra sensory information, you have haven't you like soup,

revision dear, combining what you're, saying and adjusting what the sensors would become. The instruments are giving you and that that in turn is the loop that adjusts the perception system that, like that that had just your brains in turkey station of what you're saying you'd be amazed at how good so here's a here's another example. So if we go out over the water, so there's no land in sight and we're going to fight. So when we fight you know, two airplanes were in a dogfight and as an instructor- and I was from most of my time- you have to come back and you have to recreate it. So we we caught drawing arrows as foe and you have to recreate that stuff. So you get pretty good at going I, like I, would take off and Sarah were starting heading due east and I know or the sun is at cause in the short couple minutes or we're going to fight the sun's really not gonna move much its going to son. I know that the sun is that you know, let's just say one nine five degrees right

so I'm starting going east and its actually be down off my right hand side. So now it was funny because in the water you don't have any reference like I pass lane I passed like no, you don't and you can't use clouds because clouds do move, but you gotta come back cause. You go. Here's where I started and then when, as soon as you and you go right, I ended heading three. Five. And then you re create the terms of the amount of turns and use the sun relatives even create this entire battle, it went on with arrows, so you can come back and debrief the guy that you were teaching on exactly what happened and you get really really at that. So when you come up and go will dave, how do you know you're at six o'clock and he went around and he came up here. I go because I'm trained to do all that and I take all the notes why I'm flying you can do it and but usually it's u memorize at all and you get done I read you as soon as you're done. You knock it off. You look at the other are plenty of sudden. You start writing all your notes down there,

and you're right. It really fast on your car and you go out a stack of cards and you stick new one on your knee board, karachi ready to go and here's the next setup and it's kind of it's in some way, similar to what like at the at the highest. Well, we'll chessboards. Do I a you're? They they, they recap the games, but is the richness of the rapporteur. station at their use. In remembering like how the games evolved, it's not like it's much richer than the actual moves. It's like this, a bunch of patterns that are hard to put into words, like all the richness of things king? They have about the way the game evolved, it's more like instinct shore,

years and years of experience, so they try to put it into words, but they really can't it's it's just now. I understand it. This is because for us, if we don't come back with anything, then there's no learning to be had, because the whole thing is the debrief when we get back. We talk about. That's really were their learning is and it's the same thing. If you want to go back to chess, we know, and you start off- you try and learn, because you remember and what you're doing if he plague and someone who is a big place play with someone better than you. That's how you learned, you're costly being people you're, not learning anything. You just learning that they're, not good, you're better when you it when you challenge yourself against someone that is going to is better than you you and so I learned how to fight an airplane with he's. Actually one of my best friends will call him Tom. I give his cause because I was so Tom took me

and taught me how to fight, because Tom had just left topcon, he was the the the training officer top gun, which so that's the guy, the training officers, the main guy at topcon. So Tom was a training officer. Tokens of time, when I learned cause, I come at ace, we really don't fight because it was bomber it. So I get an f eighteens and I wanna learn how to fight, because it's a whole other side of the mission. It's the F and f fighter attack the f. A eighteen is fighter attack, so I dunno you're not a fight. So now I got one of the best fighter. Pilots and world he's. Gonna teach me how to do it. And he did, and I would do something and he would go away. I get to a situation where I'd never ban And- and I would go out and do this and then he would destroy me and he would come back and go here's why you don't do that, and I would take that knowledge and I would put it in my little basket of tat x and over time. No one walks out into that world. I don't care how gifted of an eighty eight or and go I buy, I'm the man or woman. I am it. No! It's a learning process.

and saw or all those years you ve gone goods, and I mean so. What are they chances that your eyes betrays you when you saw the tiktok tac zero, I mean I'm not so! Look at ninety eight. Ninety nine point, nine percent so point one percent, my eyes to see me but member, if it deceive me the deceive the other four people, the percentage is even lower. Look up. I don't find that particularly particular the buggy case these, but I'm glad you put it view. You said those words out loud. So for me from my perspective, coming into this world- and looking at it. I am a little bit more sceptical a year. I account I think is the most fascinating story and that I think that's inspiring to me and should be inspired to lot assigned the south. There there's

on so many logistic was an engineering level. Then maybe there's propulsion systems we can actually build. It can do some crazy, amazing stuff? So it's it at the very least intriguing and at the best inspiring ash wednesday, but on the video side, it's like it's the videos for them. I flair, video that go fast. Ending the gimbal video. They are only interesting to meet due to me in the context of your story like without that they're kind of low resolution. It's like it it's easier to build a debunking story to be skeptical, so it's just where I'm coming from. Maybe you can convince me otherwise, but so to bring up MC was,

one more time he looks at the flare video and he says that one of the most amazing video of parts of the flare video for people haven't seen it is at the end of it At the the the tick tack flies or appears to fly very quickly to the left. Screen off the screen. And what may quest says is That's it inquest, probably others that the way to explain that is the tracking system. Like we said it's vision, based tracking simply loses the like the object, the tracking loses it, and so it simply allows the object tuf off for off screen because it's no longer tracking it. So I find that at least a plausible explanation of that video.

the king, your face you do not! So can you may be commented that too that dividing travelling? So it's why how people can extrapolate stuff? are operated. The system know for sure and as like me going because I'm a big formula, one fan, you know that megan, oh my god louis. What were you doing? You? Could it on this with the car and you too one race in loose hampton right now, as we know, pending world champion to die maize for time for five time world champion, but be that would be pretty stupid of me to try and tell louis hamilton how to drive a car? nor ever met effect. Anyone driving a formula one car. So I can't tell you how many times

watch. Can you remember when we looked at this thing when it when, when Chad came back with the villa we sat there and watched that I may have, I can't tell you how many times I've watched it off the original tapes going alright rant. Current looks like this, and you know, because you can look and see where the you can see where the airplanes going. You can see if it's looking left or right and if you actually watch all that stuff, it doesn't do that it. Actually, when the vehicle starts to move to the bars, the tracking gate starts to open up and the people at raytheon to pry out of this, because they built upon the tracking it'll start open up and and but the will it when it leaves so fast off the screen. The pod can't move fast enough. It has gimble rates on on vast. That thing can move around cause. There's another theory that oh the pods looking forward when the pod passes on any dear planks of em. Look at you, you pass on me as it does this. The ball will actually flip around the kind of finish off and you it'll bills. It swap sense because it has you know it's a gamble it you can just it's not free floating and but there's a theory on one of them. Oh it's here and it flipped over. It doesn't do that when it's looking out in front it stays like this so

that yet another another deep bunker who doesn't know this, so you don't make- has had several theories on other. Of some of the other videos like one of them that go fats is a bird and Jeremy corbett. you don't. I learn above saying no its, not because these on he's on black hot, so you, the white object, is actually cooler than the ocean. That's fine! While birds are closer than you Should I be dead. So the gamble video to comment on. the amazing aspect of that video is the rotation, the apparent rotation of the object. That is something that is not possible to do with systems that we know of, and I may request suggest that off flare bike, reflections or whatever can explain now, because what mick west doesn't see it so when they take cause, I've talked to the one of them. Actually I work with so I know him and I talked to him all the time.

So ah, and it's his best friend actually shot the video one of his best friends for the you. A video game of a both want to go fast and the gilmore shop are the same person. Okay so and they were in each other's wedding. So that's how will they know hm okay? So what you don't see is so that the airplanes are flying still super hornets, but they have the apc. Seventy nine, which is the new phased array radars made by raytheon things incredible: okay, it doesn't usually if it's, if it's out there and it sees it, it's real. So at first they thought they were ghost tracks when they started seeing stuff in and they actually threw. One of the targeting pods out there, while the targeting pod the heat signature and you go hey dot heat signature, something's there, it's real! It's not you're, not picking up some extraneous things. So what you see in the gimbal video of the thing and in rotation you go holy shit. Look at that thing! It's just sitting there, it's in the wind and it's going against the wind. Why it's doing this? You know some of us wants an airplane off an airplane. Does this its eventual can start to change aspect cause it's in a turn. This thing doesn't change aspect it just rotation.

Right. The other thing that you see when you talk to them is so there on the radar there's an object. The day you identify dental, their number one priority over their launch and steering so designate that that's where the targeting pods gonna look, that's what you get in the gimbal video there, the five other, I think it's five they're kind of in a v. You know like a geese, would fly that are out in front of it and they're actually coming they're out in front of it They actually turn on the radar and go the other way while they're filming the gimbal video and which it's I know, ryan has come out and talked about it. But but when you see it, you go, you know. If you take taken in context you go out just a video or if you take the video with a rain, argo another's actually other things out there, because there is at least sixty people to have seen these things on radar, doth, the vacates that was, it actually became. I call buddy, my who is running the wing at the time the firing I said, do what he s doing

this is why we have no time out, which is an earnest airmen, which means there's these objects out there, in the morning area, actually anyone you can fly cessna through the warrior. It's all a warrior. It tells you that is high military traffic and training out here. It's pride best not to be here, there's nothing that prohibits you from going in there. So these things have right if, wherever they're from or whatever they are, you know because people, like other balloons, while balloons float balloons, don't sit in in in seventy knots of wind stands. Location. They say they had an airplane cause. It was too there's the gimbal thing. That's a pretty big object. There's also they talk about. It looks like a cube. That's inside of a sphere, a translucent sphere. That transfer hell is that and I've just hit one. It's almost hit hit them. So that's another! That's one of the biggest another biggest account is like almost hit a plane or something that appeared to be a cuban translucent sphere. What do you make of that? And you know what I mean that the debts

most dangerous, you write the biggest frustration is when you do that, and you go okay. So this thing passed between two airplanes and it was, I think it was him and then like one hundred feet or something like that of the airplane and all said it. So they do as a combat and go hey. I had a near midair. Would you have in your mirror, with feathers, floating beach ball with his cuban side of it, and you go huh No, you know so I sent out a no time again and they do do up called a hazard report report says: hey: there's these objects out there we almost hit one therein. I get sent off to the naval safety centre. What was done diary, what you gonna do ye, can you to catch one with the giant net and try and bag one You know because I've seen em, they picked him up like hovering on radar and then all of a sudden ur travelling at really high rate of speed, so young into. Yeah. What do you do that? Let me ask this because this is what people Kenneth think about. After you witness tiktok and for this? These incidents, as far as we know what the gamble and go fast.

It seems, like people, military did not work did not react like what like did not freak out it. It almost like was like a mundane event. Well, how do you explain that? Why didn't the people on the ship, not the higher ups? Why did wasn't there a big We got or, as some people suggests, the higher up knew about it all along and just will not letting everyone know that there is some kind of secret military, if the knock you know like like tests cms, so let's talk about so let's say: you've got this cool new toy, which you call a cool new toy. You take your cool new toy out into an area where the two cool new toy could get damaged or what, if the airplane would have actually hit your cool new toy and you got two people that are ejecting or dead, and you gotta have you know eighty million dollar airplane it's now in the bottom of the atlantic, and you know task

are normally done in controlled environments, just sits like any tested lab test or whatever would you take things out into the real world? you know: you're still going to test it in an area where, if something goes wrong, so when they started and will go back to elan, so my friend that work there He had a rocket go off the routing, collage lean and went away. it went on a few align ruptured in the rocket and ran out of fuel. Before got all the way up and it came falling back down. Well, when you're out on an eight tall in the pacific, It's going up above you have. The worst case is going to land on you, so you're, where you're worried about. Where else is it going to land and had actually crash next to the a tall and- and you know, elon- wasn't happy and through this guy under the bus. So that's a test environment cause. You don't know, what's going to happen so cause someone said well when we chased the tic tac will could have been some secret government thing see we're gunman things. Typically, just don't come out and test to wear. Underhung Unknowing, pilots. We can't control.

Well, a lot of think you're exactly right. So you go, you know it's! You know it's not the doctor evil scientist! That's going to throw shit out there to to get the leaders, control and there's reasons that we do. Because a lot of stuff, especially when you get to there's there's you build something in theory: you model it, you go hey, this is, it looks like it's gonna work. You get name you build it. You tested some more. You bench test it. You know you like an airplane with digital. Like trolls before it even leaves the ground. They got things over the peto static system that are changing the. What the airplane thinks is the airspeed talking to it, and it's probably a bunch axl to gear up. So it doesn't, it thinks it's flying, it doesn't know it's sitting on jack stands and they're, just changing the pressure on the Peter static systems, so they can actually make the flight controls move and they can get all the data back to go hey. It looks like it's going to work.

and then there's winters are up a bunch of stuff tat. They do that's a control. If I was you can do the testing throwing should out in the middle of where people are doing exercises is the most preposterous thing that I've heard. Is it possible is it more really is it is it? Is it? Is it the more lively more likely there. Doing better than the others. The other side of the question is: why do you think people on the numerous? and in the? U s government general, not freak out more at the incredible thing that you seen the in a positive way freak on the negative way like what are the russians Joe again or or more like what is this like you so more turmoil. So the ranked, if you put the chinese flag on the side of it or a russian flag on the side of, and I said, yeah it had a big russian flag on the side of it dude. Then would have got a lot of attention. It would have went high order, yeah right if it was a day to know you don't have to say russia,

If there was another country's emblem on the side of this thing that we saw and said, oh it belong to them. Then it's a big deal, so here What's going on so we're literally in the middle of work ups- and it was a joint work of normally, they we go out for months, go come back to stuck up. For me. This was a two month at sea period, where we actually had to beg for them to let us when the ship pulled in at thanksgiving, so we could run home up to the central valley, have thanksgiving in our family and and run back down and do this? Okay, so you know- and I just taken a ride- had the squadron for a month right. So I'm up a brand new ceo on the most junior guy on the us. As far as the commanding officer goes for time in the navy, At the time I was most junior, ceo, four or five command in the navy right, so you ok so I'm out here, I got my squadron, I'm running it. I see this thing, you know we catch shit for it. I have a squadron run. I have the

the tick tac was over here and although an extraordinary event, I have seventeen Eric. and three hundred sailors that I'm responsible for right. While being making sure there are fed, make sure they're happy their birth then you know what I'm working with my master chief and am working with my xo, a snap and and we're going through all this stuff. I don't have a lot of time to worry about the tic tac if if people need her thought me, so you gotta remember you got the capital ship, you got the air wing commander and he got the admiral. Those are the top three and you got the ceo of the the princeton who is a major command and that's really your big major clan and everything else is. You got all the squadrons which are oh five command, and you got the small boys that are out there, which is oh five command so in the higher He is far as rank and responsibility of. What's going on, I'm pretty much in the top twenty with. Ah my peers and I've got to see the captain and admiral right and then he's got some post.

men guys on his staff, that we were friends with thy tom you're responsible for a lot of things. Yes, oh yeah schedule, Pierre his missions, if they do not get the job done and there's no time for silly things. Exactly right so and we're the we're the integration you don't want to when a when a battlegroup deploys, especially when you go to the middle EAST for what we were doing, the air power is the key. It's take our airport with us. We can park it anywhere. We want and we can do what we need to do so- we're kind of key player. So when you get the theory that oh all, these men and suit showed up so the cap The ship never said anything to me to admiral, never saying to the people on his staff that I was friends with never saying to me. The other ceos that I talked to on a daily basis, never said anything to me and no one ever came to me and I'm the guy the chased it so in all the theory reason all the debunkers and all the stories, because I don't know if people think they're going to get rich on this, because I made a big donut on this. I can tell you what I got paid for. I got paid to go out and spend twenty one hours.

My day, going to allay and do a five minute talk for someone I'm like and it wasn't for. The talk is our talk for free is you're, not paying me. I said I sent in and I got to go to the mic. Men will fast because they too, that my wife and I got to go because it was just look like fun cause. The whole town gets involved here and it's only time. I've ever spoken publicly in front of a large audience about this, because it was just you know, it was fun and I got asked and jeremy and george knapp and went the year before so I went with with baubles. Are so I got to hang out with bob at his wife and his wife and my wife, and you know we all hope What kind of you know talking and not about your foe stuff, but just getting to know each other as people, because you know bobs like me, hit the stuff that he talks about is not the center of his life? If anything, it ruin his life, if you know he's just a really really smart guy, that's just like the rest of us trying to get through life. That's nevertheless, I mean that One of the sad things. Reading luella Sandoz resignation, note from his up the user

directive, eighty programme again like an eight year. One of the sad things is that he's mention it people in government just don't take this seriously as a threat, I like your your foes as a threat, like you said, if it doesn't have a russian label on it. It's a sad thing to think about that that we have such a busy skin you're that the anomaly it doesn't it distraction that will want to deal with any kind just fades into history? like literally it's kind of sad to think that if aliens showed up like and it just didn't cause they're not when alias show up they're not going to be a thing, that's on the schedule and if they don't start killing people did you

can a sharp and some very nonchalant peaceful way, briefly people below that's that that's have time for this. That's so sad, It's like anywhere in the world. So you know this to go back: let's go back wayback way back in the time machine you know, there are people kind of scattered around the globe and in europe's a perfect example, why does france speak french and then right next to them? Spanish, spain speak spanish, and indeed gonna jump over and germans or german and the polish people, everyone speaks a different language, because if you look at the way the train kind of subdivide the arrears, people that were there, you know thousands years ago. They they speak differently right you'd, be like the? U s but see the? U s a different. We all speak english, because what happened we came over me started on east coast and we migrated west. We will get into the you know what happened in.

Because the native americans all spoke different languages, you know it's that same type of thing, so, but any time We have a tendency to show up in your here. Really you think about your an alien? If I go to a different harry, if I just you know, go back five hundred years where over a thousand years were travel, we were travelling across oceans at the time we were well, we don't think we were of the vikings. Where do because we had limited, you know we had to have supplies and the boats weren't as big. We had to build them by hand, we didn't have power tools and all that stuff. So you, if you show up someplace like when the conquistadors from spain came over in south america and you ve got you know the natives you're, actually an alien in oh and then you look at what typically happens when alien show up in a human alien world. You know what I mean when I say alien I mean you're, not from that area, the other we we take. What we want and that's what happened. Mimi literally defunct civilizations, because that's how we are real weekends.

We're an interesting group that so you go now what what if something is from someplace else dislodged. Let's just go off: the grid It's that lets say there are low agreement. They wanted intense guy, Lou asked me this will retire saga lula's on only said. What do you think they were here for us at all how he goes? What if I go, although they are observed They come down and hang out. He goes warfare prepping the battlefield. What if they were observing to figure out what we do If you go, that's interesting. The other theory is maybe there's a more advanced civilization out here, and they just check in on us, because the threat to an advanced civilization is when a a civilization that is inferior to them actually develops enough and fast enough to become equal or above because now these they become the threatened type. So you watch us grow until we start getting too much. You know it's kind of like you go well, because I always have a tendency to hang out around nuclear right and you go well. You know there if this is an advanced civilization,

and I'm gonna go science fiction kind of comical, they come down a watches and go look d. They did the crazy, upright monkeys now have developed the atom bomb. Let's hope they dont destroyed himself, a thousand alien civilization I'll start paying attention with the atom bomb. That's why the mean there is certainly an uptake of. What is it you're for sightings since, since the nuclear since the nuclear yeah, you go Let me ask the lisbon out their question may be speculation, but maybe touching on roswell. Do you think it's possible that there is out of this world aircraft, or beings that are in the

possession of one of the governments on this earth. Like the? U S, government is a possible, so the one perspective of that, if it's possible, is it possible to keep a secret like that say. This, I think, is very tightly possible because of you go. If you just look at all the sightings and nuts go just the project Luba go here was what the frigate, how many thousands of sightings that there's a percentage is like ten or fifteen percent? May they still can't explain like our tik tok is one of them? Do you know they basically governess come out said we what that was okay. So so, if you go okay of that, fifteen per cent that we don't know and of these thousands are still that fifty per cent makes up a pretty big number. What are the chances,

not one of them crash somewhere on the globe and was recovered, and I don't care if it of intact system or you got pieces of it, of a metal that we can explain or some some biological matter to say the least that could be intact or can, but that the odds of that now are starting to go down. That did you know that could never happen, and I'm not talking just the united said, I'm talking The legal service, so is our chance that a foreign government actually possesses, or our government or some one in the in the world on the globe of the seven plus billion people has something that is from this world and I'm not talking to meteor but something that was manufactured in some

way that allowed transport or observation could be a drone could be a foreign drone. You like voyager, flies around and does all that stuff and we get stuff that just went past pluto, that's out in the kiper belt down under stuff out there floating around and in one of our ours it's going to crash into jupiter, eventually or whatever, because we've had stuff crash into planets. So, if that's the case, you would think something is out there that we have something that we can't explain. And, according to Lou, there's stuff that we can explain. You know- and I would assume that lou who ran a tip has has seen stuff that he can't openly talk about, because you know cause. I had a clearance when you have a clear since you are you sign your name, your bound to that and to me that's an important oath that you hold to. You know this is kind of. Were you know, people have issues with bob, So, if you know when I leave it to you to determine, if you believe barbara I'll tell you bob is a straightforward, very sane, normal super smart guy, while the zarya yes, there is

the other side who says what should he have come out and talk. You know to those who will clarence, who we know are true to the government. You would say he should never spoke. He he was under an oath to not say anything, but he did if you asked Bob why did you say something his the his answer was, I understand, there's an oath, but I felt that the technology could benefit all of mankind and it shouldn't be locked away in I'll leave. If you believe bob, that's that's kind of what bob says and that this assessee interesting he point if there is aircraft, a technology that is in the possession of the said, the? U S, from it should day make that publicly known the loudest. Noting that russia's is the question of like do we release stuff that can potentially change there sure of human civilization, like the the way with the way we think about our place in the world. Are

so the if their technologies potentially useful for military applications, the nature of military conflict. Should we release sad information or not, if you are the government, so here, while here's exactly how so far for classified information, a government is the people that classify it. So I can't go. I can't look at something ago, my guy, the savion bottle is now top secret. I can't I don't have the authority, the ability or anyone to do that at the guard. That's up to the government, and I agree with that, because I worked for the government twenty four years of my life, so I understand it. But now you go, there's reason stuff is classified okay and it has to do with. Sometimes information is classified by how it was obtained. It's just like the mob. If I have a spy, mama, mobster and you're the counter mobster, but I have a guy on the inside this feeding the information I can't do it in a perfect example is, if you ve ever seen d,

it's the Tom cruise movie. What is an air america or whatever, but he he play the guy in Louisiana, who was hauling drugs for pablo Escobar and he ended up getting a a cargo plane and the government. The cia was kind of funding him to do stuff that yeah hooked up with pablo, but they put cameras on his airplane. When rag and had come out and said, here's pictures, we have proof that their running these drugs, it didn't take pablo long to figure out those pictures were taken from inside. Of the plain of this guy you ve been working with the neck. I end up dead. Does that make sense? If so you classify to protect the source you classified to protect the technology, because if the technology would get out it could be grave damage. sure there's levels depending on if it's a secret or top secret. There are levels of damage that can be done to the: u S, government and our well being as a country, and we owe it to this because we're all americans, you know to me, no matter what some people will say even in this country. This is the greatest country

the planet. This is the only country that you have the ability to do what you want to do. It's just don't be lazy and I have stories of people that came over here and started with nothing and there there living the american dream and they'll tell you and they didn't get it because of you know like you, you came over here from russia. You no minority status or anything else. You get your white anglo saxon protestant whatever your religion do over by you, but you come over here. I cannot do that from the left, come over here. You basically have made yourself you're, educated, you're, working at literally the top research university in the world To be honest, I do whatever the hell. I can create a with a bit of where the law a hard work. I can do quite a knowing gave it to you so I mean- and I am a believer that, like the

and we are a community so like there is a social aspect to it, but the freedom and the american dream is a real thing and that this is this I'd. You know I joke about being russian, but I am an american and dice's. I do believe the greatest country on earth, so there's a he's in the national pride. The pride in your nation is a powerful thing and around that this secrecy holds value. But to me alien technology is bigger than that. I mean it's, it's not so much a threat as your home bring back something that could inspire the world like.

Human knowledge. So let's talk in theory, so I'm gonna go back to bomb because I've talked about so Bob is a propulsion guy right bob has a bicycle in Iraq, a motor he felt the rocket car you know so he did at so. If you are trying to figure out of propulsion system Let's just say this is I'm just talk in this is Dave's theory I am I own. I have. I have custody of this thing from a technology that I dont understand and I know it's a propulsion system, so I got a few. Or it out right. So who are you gonna go to write? You go find someone you go wait. Here's a guy who, at the time, was working at los Alamos which they have proven. Who is big into propulsion? He designs oversee, built, a shit in his garage, a he super smart. What are we bring him in? So you,

the higher mana contract and you go hey we're going to brief you into a program and he goes and works on wherever he says he worked. You know, that's not important, but you get access to the technology to try and figure it out and Well, you know Bob comes out and says you know. I were figuring out these things, but there's a part where our technologies and advanced enough for us to figure the whole thing out. So then you know- and you say bob doesn't come out and tell anyone he he works on it until he gets the point where he stagnated. He he he said he's at a wall. You go. I can't do it so sometimes the best thing is to bring in a fresh mind, so you can find someone else who's in a propulsion. You bring him and they work. They can't figure it out or they get to the point. Where kind of back to the einstein theory, where have got all these theories on how it works, but we don't have the technology, we have an advanced enough to actually do what we need do. We still have to advanced technology more. So then what do you do? Your shelving? You go hey good projects over and the contract. He has shelf it and you wait another ten years and you wait another ten years until technology in our abilities and our our research advances more and then you go find new

apple to bring in that are experts in that field go hey. We want you to work on this thing and here's what we know about it so far or you don't tell him anything, because you can remember if you, if you reveal someone else's research, you can taint their beliefs, they'll start to sway in that direction. So you go, I'm not going to tell you anything, I'm going to give you this thing, and now you tell me what you think as they progress. If they get stuck on a problem that may be bob and someone else solved earlier and go hey what about this? You don't have to tell him where it came from what about this, and now they can leapfrog and they get another two steps closer to the final answer, and then we get by our evolution of technology shove. It again. Do you think this threat we'll do it? Because it's card breaking? Listen. I love government, but we just had this discussion about iran and so on. The alternative approach is to release this to the world and say there is a mystery here and then, you all of the world, the job baisers who talked about money but assaults and not just money. It's like this engine.

that's within. We talked about the american dream to say Can it be the one that cracks this mystery open? like that's within a lot of us and like money. Aside people in their garage, Jess will but you're thinking. Like a scientist. Now let me let now, let's shift to, let me think, like a country, so we have country a b and c and you can look at the nuclear arms race. So we know that germany was really close. We know that russia was getting pretty close. We just won and the race, and we were the first ones with air and still to this day how many could have won the of they could have won, they could have won, but someone was smart enough to not finish the equation when they knew they had the answer. It is literally, comes down to someone with smart enough to realise that that got into the habit. Of the nazis. That would be the end and annette stitch. It's a tough call to do

that, knowing that you have the answer- and you can't solve the problem because it will go into the wrong hands and that's kind of the fear when you look at this, you go okay. So if we do this, if we put it out there, we've got this technology. If we don't work, what kind of international space station like we're all going to work on it together in a you know, like antarctica, is really supposed to be treaty free from any weapons or anything more If we get the international thing down there we're all going to work together. If you did it in a in the confines of that and you could control the flow in and out, because what you don't want is the someone stealing information and getting it back to where and countries and notorious to do this, they were doing internationally but were secretly doing it ourselves to see who can come up with a solution? First, that's the problem because we have this inherent thing of power and technology like that is power it with

literally changed the game of the way the world operates and from not just a transportation or mankind, but from a military aspect is got huge, huge yeah yeah, I guess so beautifully beautifully, presented and theirs. I feel like this attention, but in those two place: the scientists year the world and the national security view of the world. Let me let me get to this kind of interesting point, which is a lot of conspiracy, theorists, kind of paint, a picture of government as an exceptionally as a hierarchical system. This exceptionally competent and good at hiding secrets, and then I mean I tend to not subscribe to almost any conspiracy theory to the degree, at least that the conspiracy theory history.

I agree with you, but there does seem to be- and I tend to think of government, as unfortunately incompetent at least the bureaucracy. It seems that the community- asian like the three videos there were released and just the way of de in general talks about the things I ve been talking about is just confuse this contradictory. It's not inspiring its itzhak suspect it's just it's just not as even the way they released the videos. You know that tic tac, if presented correctly, could just inspire a generation of scientists. It's like at the You know us going to the moon its inspiring, I mean it's incredible and in the way was released so suspicious. Those like low resolution, video crappy website, like with some crappy documents,

and why? What is it? I dont know how to ask this question by government. You better? Why are they doing it? This way in terms of commute negating the things they do no to the public, as I think they know how. Especially in this topic, it's been hidden for so many years and I don't think because I don't buy off on the conspiracy stuff, I just think that you know when it comes in, like I said that you know the government has a right to class buy stuff. They they classify everything cause they dont know. You have something you don't know. What it is you don't know, so we just go out must be, must be. Topsecret must put an end of all. You know like the indiana jones, where they take the dark, and I put it in their heads in the sand. An army warehouse We don't even know what we have so but, I also believe that being honest, It is openly, I dont think that the american people know need to know everything. I think, there's a reason that stuff is classified for the protection of this country,

and I totally believing that so you know we are juggling Joe when he was talking about a storm area fifty once it has brought. The worst idea could possibly have is to just storm a military installation. It's just stupid, There are reasons there are reasons that we have things that we don't just let out to the public, because if we do it as you do. Let someone know that you have something they immediately trying to counter it in perfect example: the: u s and Sixtys developed bomber, whose a mock three compression lift bomber called the ex, be seventy. Ok, there's three of them build three of them ever bill. It was a like. Sixty thousand foot high speed mock three, they three an incredible airplane. When you see it, there is actually the last one remaining is indeed no high with the museum. It would go that wing tips for now. It looks like a concord, but its way faster when I got out that we are developing in the soviet union, develop the make twenty five

I have literally a high altitude interceptor to counter that bomber and they built an entire fleet of mig twenty five right. We built three xp seventies and we scrapped the program right because now you go well, it's the technology is cool, we proved it, but now it becomes obsolete. So it's not even worth building a whole fleet of these things. You know it's it's a chess game. We do something they do something we do something they do something and it's we do something and and a counter they got a fee. It's you gotta figure out how to defeat it. Sega will build something so the more we keep quiet, especially from a defense standpoint of the better we're actually a person. I think we talked too much and I think the the military and the duty is starting to see that we are to open. You know,

where you know. You now say we're building this because there's a budget line and we live in a free society, and but you don't have to release all the specs and you don't have to put everything in open source, but that's a problem when we go to the first, it is if we want to go to work with mit and you and a partner that my tenure defence company, anyone a partner, you know you have a rule that, if you created than it, can be open source because the universe, the onset and we are an institution of learning where the defence side michael, we don't. We don't really want that published in a paper in scientific amerika, and I saw a lamp get can't to the city of lucky that I care jackson and just just conchords the some of the best, if not the best engineering and size

Engineering really ever is done in secrecy as sucks because it saw inspiring and they can't talk about it. It is but some self due to funding, did the. U s. Government has deep pockets, yosemite new technology that you developed for open source. Unless this is goes back to the original conversation. We now there's enough money in the private sector that individuals control basis, I'm talkin amazon I can just bays owes a single individual over a hundred billion dollars. He has the. Billy to do stuff I'll, tell you what the gates foundation with between bill gates and and and his as his wife and Warren Buffett in some of the other money cause, I think, bases x y. actually donated huge chunk of her half into the conversation. So I mean, what's the gates foundation worth these days, you know if in and these are guys- you know brilliant brilliant. I mean some of the greatest minds.

I have to go. You know what are they doing because they have the ability to it's a nonprofit thing: hey. I want to fund this one to fund this research. They can look beyond of the united nations, you can look beyond the conflict of having to have you, no classification. You could do what you want. You know it's just like a week. We classify how to do. You know the whole nuclear dear how to create a critical mass right but neither is really more high school kids and I figured out how do they do their science project and the government comes into says: hey, we had a class for your government as we just don't want this out in the public domain, which I understand, but they never saw thought them from free thought and developing that it's just. We really don't want this out there. Ok, I understand that I told him stand it, but if they, you know, if, if bill and Melinda want to do this and go hey, we want to do this and they're going to work with basil and are going to work with elon and we're going to opinion. Think about it. There's a signify.

an amount of money that could be available to already, and I'm not talking just science like this. I'm talking medical research and all this, but then you go will who gets it because now you're competing against? the companies that actually do it. You goes at the wall, are they the grass greatest? My let's say you know that we have a tendency to go. These are the best that we have, and I say well, that's the best of it. No we have, but there's probably people out there that don't want to work, there's brilliant minds that don't want to do anything with the fence because they just disagree with what it does. So they go to another path. there's something else and in the sense that gave the eyes of the world Jeff bases as she in a certain sense, much better than the o d at finding the brilliant weird minds out there because they're not tied to the government. So when you work a government contract, the government writes they tell you what they want and then they work with you on the requirements and they usually have a

in the end in mean. You know they have an idea that this is what I want it to be, where, if you go to like spacex, where you know they come up with, why don't we just land these things on a pad and reuse them? While, if the government scientists, if you're on a government contract, says no, that's not. The requirements were not for that. We want you to do this year, you're kind of control or when ilan does it his coming here. They knew it over the how they want to do because they have no bounds. The only bounds they av, is the liability if it doesn't work in atlanta on something. So what do you do? You go out to kwajalein and you test it and if it crashes anthony ocean, may we clean it up no big deal. We lost the money, but we'll move on its. Money makes the world go round contrary to what everyone thinks but You know, there's a lot of money that sitting around that you can do a lot, a really cool stuff with, and I don't know I mean how guaranteed it, what is blue, Origin is then amazonia. You know that

we're doing some cool stuff because they have funny- and I I joke with my the guy. I know that worked at spacex and he was funny because they were building the first test thing in a day, were limited and even found this, like four hundred acres thing is about forty acres down by waco texas and he's like I go, how he goes he was due. I worked. He goes I worked with. He owes cause he's done, government contract, he goes, there's comer contract and enters working at spacex with elon money and that's what he refers to it as as elon money. Where if I don't I'll throw them and he would throw the money at it and make it happen- and it's I'm talking this fast- I mean he talks about. He has a great story about this. I mean this is elam and is now fast you can do in the private sector vice the government, where there's the bureaucracy, as they had a company that was a basically a tool and die machine shop that did a lot of their high precision parts for the rockets they had went to the guy, but he had contracts with other cops,

and when the economy was down, the guy was actually looking at going on a business, so the guy- I know he saw me the story he was talking to the guy. He had to go over there and get something and he's like holy shit. He goes hang on, so he calls up on the phone spacex. He says: hey is elon. There Can you get them in the boardroom will be there in twenty minutes, so he grabs this guy who's literally going to fold his company. They go over to spacex and I may be getting some of this wrong if people are going to factcheck me, but this is pretty close. They go in the board room and and said literally within. Like a you know, an hour or two elon has bought the guys company. That guy is now a senior vp running his company and they're going to pull all the stuff into the spacex thing, so they can actually build a part and he can still contract out to make the money outside and he had happened like

that fat was just money is cause, I see a witness to with the law, and I think it's a whatever the, whatever the forces of capitalism that that allow a person like elon musk to rise to the top, but like cause, I've also worked for darpa like for for research, for tourism is a source of funding. I there's a weight of bureaucracy as working like being funded by darpa and with you on, like I was leary in the presence of like anything, is possible cutting across all the bullshit of paperwork of the way things were done in the past of the bureaucracy, the rules, the constraints, the all the that stuff? Just you can cut across immediately how much money and time you waste dealing with the bureaucracy when you could actually be doing. Rework that's difference- and this is why, honestly when I went back to the industrial defence complex that we were warned about

when you look at it and go spacex can do something for half the price ahead of schedule that were boeing were paying boeing and you go oh well. This came out you go, then. Why are we even dealing with this side when we can deal with aside because you gotta, fully automated capsule. It has a manual mode that they got the fly around and it worked like a champ. It went up, hung out. It came back it splash down, it worked perfectly in. We're gonna dusted off and oh by the way, unlike the apollo capsules that were used in and put to museums, they're going reuse that dragon catholic came down, they're gonna dusted off, putting a coat of paint on it? Slap on top of another rocket away goes all week.

It is amazing. It's a shift. It's a complete shift in mentality and for us, as taxpayers, we can explore at half the cost yeah it's exciting, especially given that putting that tic tac in context like then the sky or but it's limitless the possibilities we could do with this kind of memphis. I think it's exciting yeah. I think we live in an exciting time right now. Besides everything, that's messed up in the world right now, for this is a this. Is a hopeful like there's so much conflict going on so much tension? That's too me space exploration at the moment as a reason to get up in the morning and have a hope for the future to look up to the sky and were humans working like sobs, so many we can see of all this I was talking about when I was doing the tucker thing, and I said that this would be great. You know cause it when the government had come out of being a month ago and said hey this. Does this- we're doing this and l by working to release more stuff, and I was text in like loo and Chris Melanin, those guys, but before I went on cause, I had come

We have to be on Tucker's show and on my gayego you know this will be great. You know just come out with this find the the the relic of a spaceship like pull out the roswell wreckage. If you have it pull out the roswell wreckage into it, god it would be so nice to not have to deal with the the riots in the cities, and I mean, as I know it's an election year and all that, but god it would be something it'd be refreshing, to not have to turn on my tv and see everything that is just depressing in the world to be a holy cow. We actually do have this and we are working on this technology, Imagine if there is arousal aircraft and they pull it out- imagine the innovation that happens in the next ten to twenty years, without a more information than that. Just the the. Nation that happens. The look on your mosques face, look on Jeff bases his face and all the brilliant year change a game. You're chasing it would change again completely. Then he asked the big question by polish, as the absurd romantic nature of it? Outside I mean what

the things the fact the youth lay your eyes on a: u r foe, probably open your eyes, possibly that summit the sightings there that there could be deciding that have legitimacy to them. What do you use the outside of your own, citing is the most interesting citing or you are for related event in history. I think your several was it rash on forest in england. The? U s guys. Saw stuff and actually got radiation burns. One guy was medically. Disabled, but they weren't going to give it and he had help from Jimmy carter or John Mccain. His office help get the guys have a disability reestablished. I think that's a big one. Ah, I think there's people out there that have seen

stuff, and I'm talking credible because there's you gotta, remember, there's a huge chunk of these sightings. They get disprove nerve there! Actually explainable. You know we you sent me to question, does the phoenix lights, the explosive atmospheres. What's that at some time not familiar with some of these, the the I'm not either. You want a funny story on it, so I was at a at a conference. They hope hopefully doesn't watch us and get offended, but we had this uh this it was. I caught speed dating there's a table with about eight people at a table and we would go sit at the table and they can ask us questions and then, after ten minutes we move to the next table saw was speed dating all these people that are really into this. Yet I was kind of funny, but I'd sat down and as always phoenixes some people will try and dominate it. But you know you have to kind of pushed the dominators away so that you know if you're

quiet and introverted, you can ask your questions here, so we got into this, and the guy starts naming all these whoa about this. What about the phoenix lights on my unloaded phoenix lights? What about this event? Don't worry about that. He goes. He looks amigos will you're, not a? U f, o guy go! No, I'm not, but I chase one. So I'm an expert at you and he could see him get deflated because I'm kind of a smart ass like that. Yet I mean that first hand experience from a credible and in some sense these sightings have to do both with the evidence and the human. Well. I think part of that is to us that that's a credibility piece, because in the four of us that actually saw it plus, you know the other two that were in the airplane that shot the video. None of us are you have, obsessed people so when we come out and say because to me it's just in it's five minutes of my life, I am, I did a lot of really cool have had a really kind of neat. Things have been able to do and

But, when you look at the ngo wheedle it to me, it wasn't there. What's it's not a pinnacle of my life, you know to other people that they live in the: u s a world and they it's like they. You know. If you talk to people, don't there are really no you ve never seen one. It kills them that I didn't see. One. Well here we are because in which unique with ours, which can it adds that level as it wasn't me just as I see it, it wasn't like oh looks up in the sky. It was weird washing. gauge with it. You know, even though it isn't engaged five minute thing and there's other stories from other countries like there's a story in the back, and when the soviet union existed, that they actually would chase these things and one of them shot at some. You know it Did it because he said shoot at it and shouted and then it got shot down and then he said, don't ever. you did him again and don't chased them just you can observe them, but dont go after them because obviously have fire power that we can control, because you can make something float around.

Jam radars at will and do whatever you want. You know modern trust. Your weapons are probably not very useful carrying on independent state aid that force field. how we gonna we had it now yet at cyber war, for you, gonna take the bug, bowed, he gonna take the warfare. Now we can actually inhibit some type of damage, well, there's a you mean. You mentioned the phoenix slices somebody and I think, reddit said: ask him any thoughts. Unmask your false sightings, like the phoenix lights. So the interesting thing, like you said with the tic tac, is that multiple people laid their eyes on this one. what are your thoughts about? The phoenix lies from many pieces. Here's the deal with massive sightings, so the fierce lights is on it. Findable. Although I know where the air force had said something about, it was in a ten drop in flares. I don't think so, as each of your flares don't burn that long. They just come out in a kino, they detract and they go although on the other hand, there is no, because clouds can do things. So so I lived in central california for eighteen years,

you'd get. Oh, my god. What was that in the sky, and it was really van and bird shooting a missile off No, they were doing. I see become tests at one time where they shoot from van in bergen. They fly across and they go land in the eight all it closely in on. Then it can check the displacement, the accuracy and all that stuff. You know stuff that we do cause we're sure. Power and but when you see him go up, you know, especially if you've ever watched a rocket really launch on a clear night. It'll have stream the glowed. You can tell it's a rocket, but if you don't look up until later, when it starts to get to the outer edge of the atmosphere where the plume coming out of the engine is not constrained, but he and you can walk, It's on tv when leaving the spacex ones, got it's nice and narrow, narrow, narrow, and then it hits a point where it really starts to go up and it starts to come to the sides, because there's the the forces aren't holding that all into one unique thing and it looks really odd and then it'll go off because it burns

and as you could state separate, and then you see the next one go off and then it's gone and then people don't understand it because they didn't watch it from launch because we sit in our driveway and you know vancouver's. It was a three hour drive, but you could sit and watch it go. Eun are launching and I eat watch he watching. It's really cool. If you don't see anything what you see as the weird clouds from the exhaust plume, you know, what's left the residue that sitting in the atmosphere and in the wind starts blowing as he get these really kind of weird shapes in the sky. You know that's part, But when you go to phoenix lights and you go hey, you know when, when one thousand people see something you're going to discredit all one thousand, people are going to try and explain it away with something else. You know that you know the big it's weather balloon a whether balloon again, just like the tick tock. I think it's just inspiring for the limitless nature of the science. I think you're right, I think more is gonna come on. I think some of the staff that the to the stars books have done.

So there's you telling ares academy gets what are your thoughts about them? Are they might adopt him quite a bit? I am not a part of to the stars academy. I ve no, but you know, like I talk to you. I just was tat. before this heat there that what's their mission, was their hope. There was there when they started their mission to try and dont want so little green man. But let's look at this as a technology, and try and go most were, source, engineer and figure out? How these things operate and how can we explain us from using our knowledge? You know physics based knowledge to go. How would something like this operate? That's really. Their bottom line was to try and use and then couple that with because they've got the series on identified and couple that with the tv bit to get the word out so you're actually putting something. Instead of

cause? Everyone has a theory. You know ancient aliens covers all kinds of theories. You know it's kind of off of all my god and and I've seen the stuff and I've seen stuff that I've said taken out of context on shows that I did not talk to so there's all that, because you can take a clip and go. Oh it's this sense that you know, and if I know about stuff like it, you can technically use my likeness. Unless I tell you And so if I haven't signed something you can't do there was a guy who put something out and I was in it and I told him you can take it down and he talked to lawyers, because I'm not I'm not supporting you to sell some kind of narrative, there- was not elected to rehearse our space. If you're, making tv shows there are two reasons I do at one you want to get word out for t want to make money for three both and socially it's I would say the the make money is probably the biggest thing put a tv show out and the mission of the two, the stars academies did not do. That is to try to get some when I started, and I talked to I've talked to Tom and I've talked to

lou and those are the two main players. It was to basically demystify the fact in and get rid of the the stigma. That's tied ufos and let's look at it from a site. its base and unused tv to get the word out on the progress and they ve done some pretty cool things. I mean you know they ve. They in the italian government game all kinds of files that there had been. No property, their government nigger launched from might have been. Argentina gave him all kinds of stuff, like here's all our records. What can you do with it to try and I'll pull from country bass to a glut, more global base? Research, which is what you are talking about and then using independent scientists that are not tied to a government. I mean any government, but just using independent research agencies to start looking at some of the metallurgy. Could you go? Oh, I found this. We had this piece of model. What is in some of the stuff has been explained. They've got some objects, artifacts that have not been exp. and and slowly coming out. You know- and I think

because the us government, or at least some the government, the? U S, government, came out a month ago and said you we have. We have. We have material that we cannot explain the origin. They have said that they just haven't released the wreckage from the roswell thing, which I keep joking around. The current seventy, some years old I mean I might let it out. I think he put a beautifully that in this time now be haggling, inspiring hopeful thing to see people don't just to distract Yeah division is nothing. Will be united us humans, descendants of chimps. like. The idea that there is life out there. But it would literally change. I said this a while ago. I forget, I think, as the london sun times had called me- and I said you know personally, I think this is a global issue. It's not if there is stuff coming down which we're pretty sure there is there's enough stuff that we can't explain

if there is stuff coming down, then this is not a country based thing and it's not about technology and it's not about who's going to win the next war, because you don't know what they're doing. so you got really a couple of theories. One you've got e t or close encounters and the other extreme. As you got independence day, are you going to prepare and bet on each he and close encounters, or do you actually try and do stuff in case it is independence day you actually have a game plan and we, and into independence day. That scenario you know, I don't like going too much in the sky five, but let's just say in theory that that becomes a reality. It's not the us, russia, china, england, france, Spain name any country in any continent. It becomes a global issue, and the only way you can deny it just like americans. We all do you know where were divided the aid. It is that we have been that way forever. So, if you think we won't get through, this will get through because we ve times just like this. Before

until nazi germany pops up in nazi germany, pops up or someone flies two aeroplanes into the world trade center and and all of a sudden we're all like united. We also have very, very short, memories. Yes, we do It's when you looking go well, we can do this neo nano. If, if you think that everyone on the planet is good. You need to stop taking a drugs at your taking we said that there were people during the rise of hitler, none ot, it's it's! Okay, and no! No! It's! Okay! We're not going to do we're not going to stop! No! No! It's! Okay! No! No! It's okay and you gotta think the only thing that stopped hitler was his ego by going into russia if he does stocked with the pact with Stalin and not went to the east and had a fight, and it was really the russian winter that crush them, and he would have put all his high troops to the other side. There would have been a totally

different outcome? The man in the iron, the man in the high tower, whatever netflix show or nazi actually wins it, and you look you know we didn't know everything that was going on, especially the atrocities with the concentration camps and what he was doing to the to the Jews. I mean it If you look at that goin, if you really want to see evil and enters the whole side of what Stalin did, because he actually exterminated more people than hitler did, but that never gets the press And the thing is, we forget, forget this history in our conflict today we forget there is the nature of evil, with together, There is real evil in the world and the thing to fight. That was to be united to be both. It's like this interesting line like you talked about europe of being both like kind to each other, compassionate and pathetic. But also being like strong and a bad mother fucker. You need you to make.

Sure they you that that visit is a balance between kindness and force. That is, you egos used force when forces necessaries, but you don't have to walk relic billy bad ass. All the time I mean saw the toughest people. I grew up with that letter could kicked the shit out of whoever came near em. They never got five cause, one. Even people who didn't know them because are actually nice guys. You know they were there, just good deeds, but you know if you cross them like ida friend of mine. He was he's a nationally ranked wrestler. It went. I went to naval academy with me, he's a very, very good friend of mine and and He is when you meet him and he wrestled at a hundred ninety pounds. He did not lose a match his senior year until he went to nationals, he just had a bad day. He actually lost to a guy. He had pummeled the shit out of him and he would cross it was funny we we joke.

Even with him, because when you meet him, he's like the nicest like local, hey, hey, dude, you know, hey how you doing he's super nice and he would cross that ring on a on a wrestling mat as soon as he crossed that ring. It was like a totally different person and he would go out there and just destroy people. I mean physically destroy like put a hurt on and he would get done and he's like super humble and a raise his hand, and he would he he'd have this blank expression. He'd raise his hand and he'd walk off and as soon as he crossed the line, he'd he'd look up the smog, hey, hey guys. How are you doing like he literally just went, could have someone's arms off, but as soon as he crossed the line, he was a totally different person he's like and he's that way. Today. He won't even tell you he's a wrestler yeah, that's kind of a symbol of the best of america. America is now he's the rest, the cross, the line here,

here. You can be hard boiling went once you're off the mat you're, just a kind human being. Yet I know you're super humble saying is better, be lucky, then good, but your stories inspiring That's the entire trajectory of having a dream of accomplishing their dream of having one hell of a career. What advice would you give who are young person to a young, version of yourself today that listens to this and has inspired that wants to fly. or wants to go to space and wants to build the rocket. Is there advice you could give them about life, about career, about anything, yeah, yeah and first, let me start with a and you had a question for him: inspirational people. So my grandfather, I'd I'd, mentioned earlier

The huge funeral beer delivery guy was delivering beer in the sixties. Riots were the guy's a blatant act, neighborhoods wearing a white people to go, and my grandfather, Sicilian has won the first ones and his family born and united it's so my great grandmother and I had aunts and uncles that I knew grown up had actually came over on the boat thumb huge huge guy in just the nicest friendliest would give you the shirt off his back lavishly proven by his funeral, I'm talkin at his future. The head of the black panthers was at his funeral in entirely, while the mai you guys were at his funeral until it I'll. I mean it was literally a mix of of of hutu, and he had told me once you know, because when your little oh, you start looking and- and I grew up basically

If a middle class lower middle class, my dad was a fireman or you're, not rich he's working for the city, it was a paycheck to paycheck living is how he grew up, and I was talking to my grandfather one day and he he said something to me, and this is this- is literally high run my life. He said it was about money, cause you'd, see no back in the day. If you saw someone in a mercedes that was rare, you know they were everywhere And you know people that need you couldn't lease a car you actually bought a car and usually bought a car cash and miso is a different than we are now, and he said he goes. You know David. He goes There are no better than you and you're. No better than any one else: because you gotta remember that he does everyone's different. He owes treat everyone with the respect and dignity that they deserve, those and, if their poor, if their homeless, he goes, it doesn't make em a bad person it just that's that's who they chose to be an you, make sure It is in your life, but never ever looked down on someone because you know they're always be. One that will look down on you and you should never ever do that, and I kept that close to me. He was a huge influences, my mom's dad and just a big big influence in my life and the way I carried.

Self- and he was one that would say you know You can be anything you want to be you. He grew up dirt poor. You know in the fact that he had bought a house I took good care of my grandmother and ended stuff, like that, you know to him that was a success and to me it was always. You know trying to better and move on and he was the one in my parents were big. Part too was in stone that anything is possible. So when I for years and eleven months old in nineteen, sixty nine You know what I'm watching. Neil Armstrong walk on the moon and I'm asking my mom and she says: well, they were all military pilots and you know we had an air national guard that at the time, was flying f. One hundred some dating myself and- and I I just fascinated with why, and I just looked going. That's really what I want to do and I never lost sight of that. There is always I could do this or do that and when I was gonna go to college I enlisted in the marine corps. I was accepted into natural resources, ohio state and unlike oh, if I can't fly,

it will be a forest ranger. Could I wanted to hang on one of those towers in colorado and look for fires? Cassettes just like that stuff Oh, that are being ocean oceanographer, because I was fascinated shock who still and I my undergrad agreed is Jacques cousteau, so influenced at throbbing strongly cousteau, I you still haven't oceanography degree. Mba from university of houston go curves. Gonna mentioned omen. Looking people go worry what you gonna do that and I said should I refer you to greek as I go well, I'm in a sale on the ocean so at least of the ship sinks on their where I met now. Is it running joke and then, and then the citizens of these passions and underneath it is the is the belief that you can be anything you want to be. You can in I told my kids this. You know that when they were young, it was topics, she from my son, so innate was about five six year we new neighbours carbine, you know my my wife brothers are both colorblind. It's really color deprived carter, plain to see I can wait, he can't tell he as issues with greens, reds browns, it's it's funny. If you're ever around someone like that Kosovo

can. I go right over there by the red thing. I'm like what are you looking at this sounds like you had a hat on one egg, which one are you getting to you. He had a hat in his hand, it was green, he goes, I'm gonna get the green. When I go oh this one here, he goes the one of my head. I go nate that one's brown he's lying. Oh dad, he got a brown hat because to him it looked korea, so he couldn't fly. He came, he said I go where you want to do now, you're talking to your kids and he and we wanted to see. I want to be a pilot, no not going to tell him cause he's. Looking at me, cause I'm a pilot. Do you can't be a pilot he's like? Why can't I be a pilot, I said because you we've got eye issues you know so you gotta redirect and the other one was because I had to I stopped flying. I was forty two years old and I was like and it was childhood dreams? So it's like a proactive. I know exactly what it feels like when your breath farmers walk away from the nfl when you still can do it better myself. What about by the way the greatest of all time aware so you eat you, do you gotta. Go the. I understand what those guys feel like when you have

walk away from something that you love and you think you can still do it, and so I told them I said: look I was talking about my kids. I said you know find something that you want to do that you love to do and that you can do your whole life and you should be able to do good things for other people. You want to be able to help People that's what I said so both of my kids and there is no one in my family, both of my children. One of them is my daughter's a doctor dune resin, seen in term addison right. and my son is in its third year and are both can be doctors Do I look at it? Is you know people go? Oh you get to die. I don't care, I told my kids if would be a garbage man or you want to dig ditches. I don't care just be be the best, ditch digger that you can be. I said and be happy doing it, because what you also find is that we are in this big pursuit of money, money, money, money, money, monument, that's what makes the world go round, but we what you realize and go back to my grandfather, who didn't have a lot of money.

He was probably one of the most happy people on life and unfortunately he died if he died at sixty five. He had a massive heart attack because he didn't tell that he, he kind of knew it was happening and he just made the choice to to do and it was devastating to the entire family. But he didn't. He didn't have a lot of money. but I'll, tell you what I know a lot of rich people have funerals and there's nobody Adam and my grandfather he's a beer delivery I had. I gave it learned. It was like three miles long, the pope. It was crazy who died the proposed, because there is a case of catholic he's, a signal, a tiny guess who died the pope, and I got my grandfather and then the next year, and I went to my aunt his sister it was like. You know. Thirty people- and I looked at my mother and I said where's everybody at she goes. Oh no. This is normal. This is what a normal funeral looks like. So

it's it's you know for young kids bottom line, one be nice. Kindness will get you I'm a big believer in karma. Kindness will get you a long way in the world. You know it's easy, it's it's it! It's easy to be nice, it doesn't cost you anything. I said you know and get rid of the hay and number two is follow your dreams, because everyone is capable of anything there's a self real is, unlike you know, if you really have trouble with math getting a phd in applied, math is probably not something you're going beyond do but understand your. self what your own capabilities are, and you know inside your heart? Don't let anyone ever tell you what you can and can't do you have to determine at yourself and go for it thin and- and you can do anything, it's just it's it's great that the world's incredible it really is. Then we asked the last big ridiculous question I see you ve lived much, you your life, your careers, kind of at the edge of life and death.

So let me ask of several different ways: the same kind of question one do Have you pondered your mortality, the finiteness of it and the bigger question to ask, even in the context of your tiktok incur Is that what you think is the meaning of this thing, goin on here: the meaning of life, human life in the sense. So start with. Have I pondered my own mortality? Yes, quite often, And I dont get into my religious beliefs or what I am, but I I'll tell you that I do believe in god. I have just seen too many things in the world that I can explain and some people will explain it by subconscious. I'll give you a story in this kind of puts in a thing of doing.

I fear death. So I had a good friend of mine that I used to fly with. We are stationed in japan, together and and in japan. Had this incinerator, that put all kinds of dioxin, so there is a real high cancer rate for those that served on the base in its hooty japan, Him and his wife had up one son when their son passed away just before his eighteenth birthday of cancer, and I was hanging out with our call him john, and I was hanging out with John we in oil and gas. He had come the same company and we were doing an event together and he was opened up to me because we are actually the demo pilots. We do the demonstration for air shows and stuff and him- and I were sitting there talking and he was given me the whole story and in how he d really changed his look on life that only here for a finite time and that we're all going to die or, unfortunately, after all that when it was real,

go on him and his wife had moved to a location that fit their. You know close to the water where they could do stuff, and I won't say where and he was doing what he loved to do and he got diagnosed with throat cancer, and I was talking to him his private, maybe two months before he died And- and I said, dude or you're sad. He misses your friend and I'm kind of really bummed out, and this is the guy. This is a guy that is dying of cancer and here's what he tells me he says, Dave dude, we're all gonna die, he goes, but I have to look at it. I have to make the best of the time that I have, and I said I understand that, and he goes with the

section of not being with my wife, whom he loved dearly. He goes. I'm ok with dying. I've had a really good life and about cause actually the original announcement when he when he finally passed away Buddy MIKE called me cause, I don't do facebook and his wife had put it on facebook that he had passed and about the day before he died. For some reason I was thinking about him and I had a dream where I think it was a dream or an altered reality and get into whatever, but he was there. It was just him and I and I was really sad in the dream. I was actually crying and he was there and he was actually in his uniform using his white skin cause he's navy and we were just How can any looked at me and he said- and this is in my dream- he's like dave- it's all gonna be ok in this is that this is like, and this is our visit conversation. I have this people think I'm worried about this

But I mean I know it in my dream was, and you know maybe my subconscious creating the dream but in reality to me this was real- that it was put there for a reason he's ne. He basically explained everything. He says: that's, okay, I'm going to be fine, my wife's fine! He goes. This is this is what's meant to be, as you know, but do you know in a bottom line was make use of every data you have because you dont know in north Two days later, I find out that he passed so, but ultimately he accepted the finiteness of it. He did we have to it is like a talk about you, no money and job position in this and then I said you can get in any. You know you know to accompany you. Remember when you want to be a vp of a company, you sell your soul to the company you have to. I said: if you look, I joke with people at work, and I said I said you know when you ever think that you're in

I know this guy has. That said, when you're sitting on ninety three or ninety five, one twenty, eight and you're sitting in traffic and we're stop, which doesn't happen right now, cause a covert, but normally it's stopped. Bumper to bumper in your center, like I was coming down here by the gas tank and when you're sitting there look left and look right. You know there can be a a lamborghini here and has five fifty mercedes and on the other side there could be some peace, a crap car. We're all sitting on the same freeway at the same time, trying to do the same thing which just get homes we can be with our family as the most important thing that we have it ain't money in it. Job. It's not our position. I go cause when it's all said and done you could be. You know you can be. With the exception of the presidents of the united states, I mean name the vice president's most people can't and eventually they're, going to die or eventually you're, going to see a statue

the guy from the seventeen hundreds in the boston area. Here you go, I don't even know who that guy was did he impact my life? He probably did, but eventually people forget that use you realize what. For now, and the one thing that you have is your fan, we and your close friends and that's that's. It. You can take all the money or anything else. If you're down on your luck, you know who gonna be a wee ices joke who your true friends, it's the person, waller sectors at once that I won't say, but you know if you're broke down on a road in the middle of nowhere and it's three o'clock in the morning who you gonna call, is going to get in their car without complaining and come and get you and that's life, those that his life, the people, you love, it's it's it's the people you! we care about and contrary to I have you know I gotta get six thousand facebook friends you get it. that many real friends that you can count on and that's it everything else doesn't matter matter. He doesn't mean it. I be nice. I mean I've, there's acquaintance friends that I'll do

waiting for and then come to my house and stuff but dinners the people, you know you know, like my Cousins were like my brothers that you know it a moment's notice. You know when, when my uncle Passed away at a young age. You know who lived right on a street for me and my cousin, Chad and I got to boilers, there's fourteen of us but to boys. There's three together and we all got the same. Neighborhood same schools play football again, all that said if one of those rare chad ever needs me. If something happens like when my uncle died, it wasn't it wasn't an issue if I'm coming home. It's I book in the ticket I give a shit what it costs, as I will be there tat to be here with you in and then, though, two guys and my college remit is another one that I am very very close with. You know me know. If there's, there's the eye of a handful of people, and you know I will drop literally everything. Even if it, my wife would be pissed me at times like series, I gotta gotta? Do it and

She knows and it's the same thing with her. I mean she knows that there are certain people in her life, That if they really need her and she has to go, she would go, and I would let her go so the giver. Now that I'm honored. You would come here and talk to me and take the time Davis the best conversations, I've ever had. Thank you so much it's a long one one as probably says the record for the longest one ike

and I'm on my last wars, one of my favorite conversations thanks so much for talking to if you're welcome, thanks for listening to his conversation with David favor and thank you to our sponsors, athletic greens express vpn and better help. Please check out the sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast. If you enjoy this thing subscribe on youtube review, five stars in apple podcasts, follow on spotify support on patron or connect with me on twitter, Alex Friedman and now the believe you some words from Carl Sagan somewhere

something incredible his waiting to be known. Thank you for listening. Hope to see you next time.