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yeah. What's orderly normal guy is nowhere near today's episode. We are honoured to have a true legend in podcasting, he's a genius, a wonderful podcast or it just as well. if a man dan Darlin from hard core history dan. Thank you so much together You guys thank you for having needs an honour to be here. Do great, I look well same to you guys. Everybody looks good alive until you are of radio right. It's a bad dan. Jump right into it. With the questions. As I got a million questions about one ask you for forever, so listening recently to you know some of the classic episodes and some of the newer episodes and- and you said in one of your recent episodes that you've been to All that you are addicted to context when it comes to telling a story- and I have also been told that I'm addicted the context by

both are listeners and by my co host, so my going them addicted to michelob not at all. It is so my question dan. Are all of them wrong and we are not at all To the contacts I might add is illusory necessary. No, I think, I think we're addicted to contest. I think the problem is that more other people should be addicted to context, because so much What goes on in our world right now is stuff taken out of context and that and without that context it's easy to misapply fat. Acts and all sorts of things I mean reading any new story. Today I keep thinking. Ok, the first thing You need understand this news stories. Go, do more research on you know everything connected to news story, so that the facts given to me and the impressions? Never they make sense. It's like why histories important, I had a professor say once that it's like watching a soap opera,

and without knowing what happened earlier in the soap opera. There is no way to understand the episode that you're, currently viewing that's context right so being addicted to context is just means trying to figure out what happened to get you to the point where you're currently at so get way. I do and ass a wind is the context, begin. Yes, that's the way actually becomes like turtles and turtles all the way down we try to do because it would less biogas in love. We try to now which stole from you. We try to put its land the subject in the context of the people and understand, but again how far back do you got? I know. That's a good question includes get your back in the jurassic. It certain point. I would just reading something for the sharm working our right. Now, it's one of those chronic written in the middle ages and it's supposed to talk about the time periods written about, but it starts with the big

go flood with no is growing, so they were dignity. Context back then do that's all demand. So you got your deplore. From Prager you right. You know, I know I didn t know no prager diploma, thank god it gets to that point. What you're working on now like to what extent because you ve done you know a huge series on my ancient rome and genghis khan and gone with your pronunciation pronunciation, one in a row for me, same here, but to what extent, when you're, studying this ancient stuff, you know, are like medieval subway, how do sets out what to trust him. What not to trust we, usually, I trust, other people so when you are and like I we say about a fan of history, not a historian, and so that requires you to trust other people. The problem with trusting historians is that they often disagree with each other and was something that we got into early on in the podcast, where we inadvertent

We got someone's chocolate in my peanut butter and try and figured out tat the audience actually likes hearing the different opinions that the different historians have, and so that's kind of what we do and then where we provide context. Also wisdom will say well on this this issue. This particular guy feels this week This other lady, whose expert on the subject feels this way, and you start to try to help audience understand the controversy, even if we don't always pick sides. So a lot of us oh you'll, hear me, give multiple potential interpretations or give a disclaimer and say this might be true. I'm just warning you take it with a grain of salt, though, because some people disagree, and sometimes I use their names and son I won't. It just depends. Go ask a dumb question ways here, like not reading history. What do you, reed but go on with what is this, that the urine too that's not work, because I'm hungry The ideas well, first of it more than I turned my my private in

women's into work has as yet stuff. I it anyway read some stuff for fun, but it's almost all nonfiction and like an idiot, the fixed, that I do read is like three or four books, and then I just re read them all the time that we decided that terrible like you could be discovering a brand new fictional work. Maybe I know I already the same one, that is all I do. I just re, read the dark tower. Again. I've been trying to get it. I wore a lover new book, anything else buddy, if you, if you love it, stick with it. So that's interesting when it comes to store how do you decide who to trust in who? Not too then, because, obviously, even in Modern era you can talk with, some economists were like ragged was great, others say accurately trickled on economics, didn't fuck and work, and that's where we have no middle class. So how do you trust that these historians, art spinning in their own right, While usually, there is major consensus on certain things in usa, eighty historians will say this and then sometimes we'd like to throw the some member of the two

ninety percent in there just to to give an alternative view, but um historians that are completely off the map there's one russian guy and our should really look up. His name is. This is like the third time this month. I mentioned him without looking at the name, but he intends that the entire dating system that every one else adheres to completely wrong visible. Who cares can't we just agree that it doesn't really matter well, actually is fascinating hit his theory whether its true or not, is fascinating, because it shows how thin red tsar that certain potential moments that that dating rests upon might be. so, even if he is wrong, it's fascinated to look go oh I didn't realize that this date here is crucial. For nine hundred other dates to be right right in other use it as a marker that, then, you know a lot about things hinge on then of course you know

These historians are, are there are ones who deny the holocaust? I mean this, and then they are. Some of these guys are legit historians, they're just so far out in left field. No one else believes them, so sometimes you have to determination, whether or not someone so far off the map that bringing them in discussion is just confusing a wrong whether or not what they're bringing to the table add some sort of inch. Sting angle, that the audience would find useful and that's it women call and I'm sure I get it wrong, sometimes nova. That sets you're the curator. I know I've tried you die, you arrange your new serial killer, I'm just trying to get us a do. Annapolis, island villain, you, the organizers, your book shelves and their oars talents, and I turn them into my eyes until we're going book, worm on the old batman remain there staring criminal? I keep trying to get its doing episode. That is about like the fact that

what, if it's like three hundred years later than they think it is our three hundred years earlier than they think it. It seems. Like idea of this, data may be off, and then you know We put a general this researcher and lincoln eventually we're like. So what we get to the very end were like well woods. Ok, so it's twenty its twenty three twenty three congrats! for any one of the listing time. Arguments that that I've heard a mean it does actually does. It speaks towards and larger history. You know it speaks towards, like the history of the christian church goes down on her know of your talking about the same theory that I've heard about is that you know that this entire chunk of time was like me forward or moved backwards in order to make the christian church more powerful in order to kind of take these pagan ritual and turn them into christian rituals by sing all that was at that up and so long ago, or that happened just you know a couple hundred years ago that they ve been screwing around the time just to further their own interests. I think the rush

guy I'm thinkin of actually thinks that certain events that we think happened- long time, apart from each other, actually happened at this time and are sort of like double counted by historians. But but let's remember, the dating itself is relatively arbitrary right. In other words, on you know, if you look at the hebrew dating system, it is a completely different, dating system right, I'm. In other words, if you look at the medieval stuff a lot of times it won't, you try to have dates? What they do is they ll, say: okay, this king reigned here and then twenty three years later he dies in the next. So they'll dated based on other data points, rather than saying this many years since round zero. You know what recalling and that's why the what you're talking about his like the the idea pc see system right. That's just one sort of system right, the hebrew one one word wherein multi thousand years somewhere. So so it's all sort of relative all that matters is once you sort of a fix things that happened to your time line. So

whatever you call this doesn't matter, but you could say: oh, this is when the emperor gustus you no doubt and then you date things based on that. Then everything has to sort of fit time line in place, but now here you sorted decide while that seems a little bit Like ok used, you sort of make that part up and then everything so it fits on the timeline based on while twenty three years after augusta's it I'd this happened, and so you stop placing things on the on the linear timeline. If that makes a thing about me, I'm not tethered to history, so Augusta's died, eaten a bunch of cake, wait and wait until you wanted him to that area. That, too, is that my youth videos. I was watching saying badly, b, b mysterious happenings of nine eleven across history. Is it real I can't comment intelligently on that, because that sounds like fiction, and I just told you I don't even pay attention to fiction very much. That was kind of my one of my basic questions here is you say, you're a fan of history y.

You know my mother's theory on this and she's, not she's, not grounded in reality on every part of the subjugate. She thinks it's past life stuff. She thinks. I'm writing. You know. I have all this stuff from past lives, That's why I three years old, we related all. That's that's just a mile. That's why run? I think that's fiction to for further, good, but I mean she was trying to explain how this four year old kid Sweden rise and fall of the third reich. And how do you? How do you explain that to friends at cocktail parties that he's either going to be super smart or we have a problem? I think that we have a problem thing was was pretty much the standard answer until I graduated college, so well I'll be damned when it comes to being like a cure. it or you know when you have these massive stories, like you know, supernova in the east, blueprint for armageddon unit ghosts of the OS front, a corner setting out in june planning out these stories. Like are you trying to make a point?

These stories? Are you just kind of giving a point of view of what happened to her up these up massive global events? I dont for us anyway, we weren't trying to simply just recount a bunch of facts, we would like to. Have we like to think that there is an artistic element to the Essen further for that to be the case, there's gotta be something that were adding otherwise why Wouldn't you just go get the books they were using for our research writing in that we put on our website, because those are by rep with historians and you can trust them much much better than to what are we bring into the table. Are we, of in house names that we use for a lot of stuff- and you guys probably due to develop terms too, to refer to things that you, use and in your work and we call it the spine right so we show kind of has usually major spine and maybe a couple minor spines that are sort of a through put idea that if

you think about your there's, an old line that history is philosophy taught by example, and we try to keep a sort of a philosophical through put so like in the in the show that we did on nuclear weapons. The throughput question was sort of way there are not humankind is ever going to. If we haven't already develop a weapon system that is so powerful we ourselves can. Figure out how to exist with it right, we'll mankind ever become unable to handle the power of its own weapons systems in the throughput idea was kind of that. mixed with sort of the question about whether or not if you had a gun. I think we should we phrased it. This way you had a gun pointed at your head throughout your entire life, meaning nuclear weapons right there was a generation they added did. They grew up without nuclear weapons and then had nuclear. Weapons and they were acutely aware of the nuclear threat, but people born when you

your weapons already existed or like people born with a gun put to their head. Do you don't even notice it anymore? So those were those that was part of an intertwinings spine question. Whether or not if mankind hasn't the point. Yet will we ever get to the point? Because you assume technologies always going to advance we're domain when more and better powerful weapons We have the power or weapon system, and this is where we included stuff, like the the think, tanks that were created after nuclear weapons came to the fore. Where you got the smartest people in the world on the subject, put them in a row together and then had then try to figure how mankind exists with these weapons that can destroy mankind and so its needs? the fascinating tail? That's a sub text of the nuclear question and that's that something that dumb saw Oppenheimer the other night, and when I asked when I saw the movie all I was thinking of his man, I, like they really missed an opportunity to get into that side of the question is here these p,

while taking us into a brand new era of weapon power, and you have to ask the question then what we know. How do you, then you know what what's the old line there was a line, I think, is Bertrand Russell or one of those philosophers was talking about. You know he said it it's you can expect and kind to walk on a tight rope. You know four in an hour or two or a day or weak, but we're committed to walking on this time rope of not blowing ourselves up forever moving, forever. So, and so those are the kind of questions that we wove into the the story about the early years of nuclear war and nuclear nuclear war, but nuclear development and that's an example of one of the spines major and minor that we try to throw into these shows. That makes it interesting for us and end the add something that we hope makes it worth listening to, instead of just picking up the history books as that make sense or any insight on the snacks in these thanks: I figure that should be a cracker and she's club, unbelievable.

I guess I d get sardines and cigars mighty. Well, I guess of the world and we ve learned anything here unless pod cats in the left, its at our time on earth can come to a close at any moment. For any reason, without any warning, most of the time completely out of control. Literally a hundred percent of the time you do normally choose your own death. We have time for the weak, ever less drinks, we're getting clear, working, hard, seltzer surges of stronger wave of flavour, refreshment and taste it percent alcohol baby, it comes at four delicious flavors blackberry blow. orange, but not the kind of blend we usually talk about cranberry you can buy in a variety, twelve back horse Seen out single serve can get yourself a call, trident white cloth. Third, too, a while. You still can please drink responsibly, hard seltzer

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We get new language or right now for very limited time, less podcasts and let listeners can get rosetta stones lifetime membership for forty percent off. That's one hundred and seventy nine dollars for unlimited access to twenty five language courses for the rest of your life redeem. Your forty percent off add rosetta, stone, dot, com, slash, ellie, F, t today, that's rosetta, dot com, slash lap, do you think they will have the same come up and at some point about, because our generation was the first ones to really like you know. We came up in an age where the last ones to come over and age with no digital footprint right like we're all new forty across a lie. So you're way. Whirling. We saw both worlds and now we're kind of like the generations. After us, or by the of deeply ensconced in the internet, actually wonder When we having these same conversations about stuff like this like when, how affecting our society later on line after like cause- I don't know,

what it's doing to our brains like it seems like it's kind of tearing us apart from the inside, not like how nuclear weapons would do it in a fancy. Expensive explosion know, I think about it all I'm the analogue generation right, the people, the p. I will describe it to my kids, who don't wanna, hear it it's like me, listen to my parents about you know when they had radio instead of television but but the our generation, the generation that eventually had to decide some day we're gonna, learn how to operate that weird complicated tool known as a computer. I remember looking for Would you a good god? I don't really want to have to learn am I endorse and how to deal with this computer and everything, but I'm gonna have to for works, or in other words, that the generation that grew up in a in a pre digital world, and that has to then you know, sort of bridge the gap, and then these other kids like what we just talked about being born with a gun to your head. We might think so re. We were born without the gun to your head, we're acutely aware of the digital world, whereas my my old

His daughter was born the year the iphone was invented. I think our or I tried explained her that this whole texting reality that is less like concrete to. You is about his old, as you are trying to imagine how different the world was before that, and she can't she can't get reminder right I think, that's how human beings are hard wired as we existed in that world? We are acutely aware how do and our childhood was for example, then the way Childhood will ever be again and what's interesting is our? childhood more like the way children experience life from our time. to cave man talk here about every year. Maybe I am, what are we to the planet? I mean to the point of being like a you adapting to technology, I mean you were one of the first people to use podcast,

as a medium, like you, ve, been doing. Podcasting says what two thousand and five yeah yeah enduring, and so why did you make? jump from terrestrial radio to podcasting, and did you ever think that podcasting would ultimately become like the top medium when it comes to broadcasting? It's so funny. I had a dinner with the guy tomorrow night. Who first proposed that idea to me in nineteen ninety four: yes it so it wasn't my idea at all. Ah, was on the radio one day and I had a very contentious relationship with my audience. I always said I was the martian in the day part because I was saddled between two right wing. Talkers are on commercial radio and I was a martian, a sill emma martian and so I inherited the audience of the of the guy before me and the people after me. So they didn't like me very much in the feeling was mutual, and so I would yell at them all. During the program I was screaming one day about. What are you willing to do to create positive change and got off the radio

punch and walls and I'm over calf unaided, like I always am, and The secretary from downstairs comes up and says she has a message for me, and one of the listeners wants to have dinner with me, which is always a red flag and in any way right, especially when you're the martian in the day point it's an invitation for a shooting, but but I so I called the guy but he says if you want to know what I am prepared to do for positive change. Let's go out to dinner, so for some reason It's funny how these little things can change your life. These dangers that you make that you almost didn't make that, in your whole, life takes a left hand term when you do so short dinner, the guys about my age. He looks like dilbert, but he has down to his waist John lennon glasses and all I can t but this guide. To sum him up in a nutshell, is this is one of the most forward thinkers. I've ever met my life in it's sort of the person bane of his entire existence. Sure, as he sees so all around the curve that he's always in the wrong place to score off of obvious to the future.

the guy who saw apps right as the future of of computer programming is ready, after he was writing them for the newton remember by the time, haps or a big thing from the iphone he's already passed, that he did it with the newt now he's out of the next, but he didn't score with the newton so the guy, who sees so far in the future that he can't even he can't even benefit from it and in nineteen. Eighty four, He said I want to put your show on the internet and I said what you norman you, which is basically get used to what the heck. The internet, isn't it's mostly taxi dilemma. Put your show on the internet, the amendment we're gonna, how emails we're going to destroy the work play I like what are you even mean as it? How would you let me do that? It goes well. That's where I came and I'm gonna invent how to do it and you're going to show people how it's done. Ok, so long story short everything we grew out of that and on an end it once again, he was too far ahead of the curve. I went back to commercial radio, but

down the line when the opportunity started to be obvious. Even the idiots like yours, truly I'd already been exposed to the idea, so I got involved as a found in a tech company with a bunch of other people and are. The things we would have to do is push what at the time was called amateur content. Now, We call on you to be weak guideline everything you could think of his amateur caught, but back then, I'm out there trying to sell this idea to venture capitalists who think it's, the dumb thing? I've ever heard. An excuse I always got was anybody was ever any good at anything like this. They be paid it is. So nobody invested went nowhere, but I put a showed again there to show people what damage your content would look like, and it was our very least few shows of the podcast, not the history, one, the one we did before, that the political one which

just a variation in my radio show, and when that company went belly up, I took that show and continue to do it myself, and that was what the two thousand and two ipod. Gouged was, but it all grew out of the idea, this guy I'm having dinner with again tomorrow when he said but the show on the internet. I said how do you put a show on the internet, so I I gotten a head start on that idea. Cause this guy was so forward. Thinking, that's the short answer. What were some of the things that gave you hope that this was going to be the future of today and five I mean I didn't know about pike. I didn't have a community that is our entire yeah. That was before I had yet what was worse, with his little six long way we're like you know what this is gonna work up, why? I was worried about stupid things. Looking back on it now, like, I remember, it was like, show five six seven in there and Do you really believe you had shows five and six and say it is a long time ago started somewhere here and they all sucks fortune my duty as everyone not very good, but I

embryo radio. You have a cough button, as you guys probably know, right, so you're going to call for clear your throat. You push the button you're off air for a second, so we're doing this. Podcast and there's no cough button, so I used to just go. I mean: there's nothing. in this sense. I do it the same way today like it's completely improvised. I get up there. I just start talking, so I mean I was like fifteen. Its into some long red and was gone really well, and then I had to cough I remember turning to the producer and go. oh man, I said we gonna start over egos. What do you mean start Why not start? Nobody can do fifteen good minutes again and if it were woody, proposing we do. We should worry you just pick up where you left off against scrunch together. I should you, kids lunch together, I see you ruined my chops on this We re all your about going back to radio and that's my set down what you know radio kind of soft. Anyway, I mean I was the wrong guy for radio right sars kind of going here. What am I preserving? Those chops

and that's when started, to realize. Ok, we got some tools in this podcasting that you can do in live radio right rise, so it was all up as it is for all of us right, a growth process, learning what can do what the tools are, and in two thousand and five we don't exactly have you go like research, what other people are doing so were now. You know you find out later that other people were learning these same lessons. We were all learning them sort of. At the same time, india ended Lee, but yet too that you know it's fun. thing is, if you don't listen to the shows in two thousand and five, they sound so horrible, now mania. At the time you great all this stuff on occur right, I mean it's only as good as what the technological expectations at the time were, but god you know I, sell. Those old shows is the lonely shouldn't sell. Those old shows now right I mean, but I mean, but for me, though, like I first heard hark where history for the first time in two thousand and seven,

that's early times the avonlea, since I've been to impart gossamer eighteen years in your family still alive, reddit is a menace, but you know I got when I listen to him back then, like I'm also. I also come from trust your radio from fm radio and I was working as a janitor at the time as many fm radio guys we're gonna have a natural, but you know I, but I do know, found europe. You, dear podcast, start listening to adjust, constantly and you know it really did for me- it changed the way that I felt like what was possible of what what you could do with this podcast medium. But you know in those early days like your first episode is six in minutes long standing, her yad sixteen minutes long, but then now, like you, know, you're series on. old were one was what twenty two hours somethin like that, which? What do you say that, though, because I m,

This is something I think we also all sort of independently discovered when we did the political show the current events show that we started off without was simply a rapist. Radio shall right. Yes, we did on re, but when we just, how did you do a history show that was? we designed specifically for podcasting- and I remember thinking it- was like this giant whiteboard we had to work with. There are no time since there are no mandatory breaks. There's no skeleton and all you can do anything you want, and I was intoxicated by the creative space we had to work with because, as you know, in radio, you have little cry aid of windows. You can operate within plus man it will also constrain those spaces even farther than the First time we designed a podcast as a podcast. It was an exhilarating spears and that's what I knew I was never going back to radio once I was eight sit there and go. Why would you ever give this up ready She, when you done radio, any sort of romance or o or any of that

any of the cachet involves like what I did. Television is of news reporter. Once you do television, you don't need to go back and did it satisfied whatever me hit it d romanticized it. You know, there's nothing cool about that. What what's cool is the create and white space, and that's when I knew I was no that's when you had like that that the tire dont back up here with the spikes, I was never went back to the old media. Once I got a taste of of the creative freedom of this dv people over try to get you The tv people ever come over. There lay still they still do, but will first of all, I have a face may for radio now, which makes it easier taught a ray of abuse. Is it easy to say no, but at the same time I mean you know I was a bad tv guy- and you know when I knew I was a bad tb guy- I was in news and you start off at the low wrong, and then you know you kind of made it when they start using you to shoot the promos rights of the you're, going to shoot a promo now you're, one of the guys that they want to advertise, and so all the

other colleagues of mine negotiate the promo. We would take him like five takes- and I remember the promo, because it was so painful all you to do was you started with a side shot turned and you face the camera. You smiled classic yeah yeah, so I was on take forty, nine or the terrible renda minds that this is not gonna work. Is it? it's, not it's just an hour or like not like when I was the field is a reporter. I was a pretty good reporter, unlike the the merits of reporting, but when it came to light looking good bye. We would look like colombo, you know out into the field of my resolve, it'll yeah, I was it he's a low key director. I was not a loki sex, so I was just I looked rumpled. I looked like I've been literally in the field as they say I will, but so in that sense I was not. I was not the tv guy and, and it was uncomfortable for me right, what was more will my hands doing? I did a couple of days

real for some tv companies it wanted to do things that had the exact same problem is like a bad flash back to my aunt. Might rapidity? like what am I gonna do with my hands? They were, they would sit there and focus inordinately on. You know how my pants looked and the decrees- and I just I can't deal with that I'm a content person, I'm not a right, not a visible person that there's a superficiality to television that obviously podcasts can erode right. We actually get to tell long stories. You can do long form. You don't have to worry about the next ad break, coming up, there's something about it that very refreshing and very earnest, and I think that's one of the reasons. People love your podcast and la podcasts in general, because even though it was dumb, damar hamlin when he got hurt with the bills, so this guy was dial up. The whole field read so everyone's cried. The stadium read in a buck is like our that's gonna break, and now was dead, serious and then opposite. Its whopper westboro upper will have as yet you're like out and nothing that may is about to die on national television in that the net the ads just roll on now and then-

is about. You dance, I a you're, the one that showed everybody else. I think the the whiteboard that we can all use, you know that we could do whatever we want with ass many amano. You definitely showed us without it Well that's a great compliment. I hope. That's true I'd like to think that's true. It is true benefit for us at least come along to one hundred per cent more than you do yeah, but that's our oeuvre. I mean that's our life, I'm okay! Back to history. I want to ask you a couple of a couple of history courses. Just your opinions on certain things till we talk on the show a lot when we talk about cultural history. Like we talk about the secret authors of the twentieth century and usually we talk about when we talk about him in terms of like occult figures like alister Crowley. Or jabbered around hubbard gerard collins, like people who truly did like they that shape the century as we know it, but no

but he really knows that. Like do you have any like historical figure that you feel is like a secret author, that shit the world that no one really give credit to you oh I'm sure, given enough time and thought I could come up with one, but on the top of the top of my head. What you know it's funny, because you see- and I evolved toward the mean on a lot of these questions, and I apologise in advance, but one of the nonfiction, I read every year and at horrifies people when I tell them this now, but I think it's actually buy and me in the in the bookshelf. Right there probably is mine comp right and I m p. So, why would you read mine companies? Will you know in the same way that you get a chance to real when you're reading nonfiction is opposed a fiction you get, it to know the author a little bit right. I should how it thing is it to get a chance to get into the mind of this person? Who you know it? You know,

want to make it sound positive that he made such a difference in the twentieth century, because it sounds like he made a positive difference. Wrote he made an impact, would be a better way to put it and his his wilds, evil ideas continue to live on and are on the upswing today, though, so to get an idea into the mind. Amid the one thing you get, when you read my comp, as you see what I can piracy, not the sky was right there's things like that? We and you turn around. So I mean when I think about secret authors. Most people don't think about hitler risen author, but I was an author before he was the chancellor of germany right he wrote a book besides my comp, the second book which I have not read, but but apparently salt, it's also very instructive into them- kinds of this guy. So to me, getting a little bit closer to understanding one of these people who continue I mean you know

at one of the things we mentioned in the first world war, show that you brought up is how it's it's an inflection point in the modern world right how the world, before the first world war, is a different world and the world after the second war, first world war, a completely different world and the second world war is an offshoot of the first world war. Hitler is one of those Here's that when you read my com, you can see how he's a different figure because of the first world war and so when you say secret others I mean you know, I don't think I've Alistair crowley, is having a huge impact, but l wrong herbert did but the kind of impact iran ron hubbard add even though I'm not comparing it to nazi ism at all is more like the kind that Hitler had in the sense that he comes up with this book. The book itself has an enduring impact. Some movements springs from enemy. There's, no, I'm trying to think if you could that Alister Crowley's started to move, but he has fans we nelson right will allow rage, stole the structure of scientology from the o t o daddy,

That is if deep into like the like, the of l run harboured. He was what he like a pen powell about Mr Crowley's when our crowley was depose like once, he was like in his waning years, alice these writings, also, which is interesting as the outer biography of Alice or crowley's fascinating as well, because you see how much more is a work com, neil of was like he was I time tiredly aware of what he was creating and what you what he was doing and it's like a cervix sense of humor, but our age is like all of it. If his ritual magic and ritual ideas that have been stolen from esa terrier from across the board. So it's weird that l ron hubbard can be like drawn back to like John Dee, like that character, where he's like Dave, he keeps stealing from the saint. Cheers yeah, it's the same problem that we have that we were talking about earlier. How far back you go? How much context you give is that gives you can just keep going back and back back with these guys. I think that a billy, though, to go back and and pull from the past, like you just mentioned, I think that's like a suit

power. You know I mean I think, that's one of those things where, if you can do that. Well, that's one of those things that you would trade. A number of other important was like a d and e character. You roll the various things that you have asked the ability to do that. If you score and eighteen we, u three six sided dies on that quality help you know in the dungeon do ass dry. It helps me in this context and everywhere else it her, well look at everywhere else. It makes me a social pariah. We will. We went from talking about dates to talking about people who never get dates that event yeah. So do you have like? Do you have a favorite like sort of I I you mentioned this word earlier hinge like do you have like a moment in history that you see as just this extraordinarily important hinge moment that just everything after it disconnects depends on all eyes.

I know my problem is narrowing it down. I mean the first world war is a great one because that we live in that world. Now, rights of the door that swung open there is the is the room in which we live now exchange points all over the place. I love alexander. The great I mean if you don't have alexander with those crazy conquests of his It's hard to imagine what happens without it. There's a lot of because you can play history, two ways one way is: if Alex there doesn't do at some? One else. Does you are right, the their one is without alexander had never happens and in the event that you know it's, it's the oldham oracle argument about the great man theory of history versus the trends and forces. One right sewed in you, argument is sometimes that you have is unusual figures that pushed the envelope and then all of a sort of follow in their wake or you have. This circumstances in place that create the conditions that, Buddy just exploits right. Do you create

room in the door and someone walks through it verses, nobody could have walked through that door, except that particular person or, as we say on the podcast, it's probably an interplay between the two you might enters a very unique figure, but had he existed two hundred years before his time? Maybe he's not able to do what he did right near? It was like the doktor john approach. If I don't do it, someone else will. So do you think it's more on the pier None of the parameters that the person was raised and because I think ADI anyway, I think it has both maybe guide the. I think it's it's it's a magic moment where you know a saving with hitler. I mean if you have hitler a hundred years before whenever I think of hitler ethic of magic moment. One, that's you jake, but it may make about this. Hitler is hitler a hundred years before the time here, exist in he's not doing neither because he's not a nobleman

yeah you know, there's a little ass needs, some peasant that none of the none of the blue blood you're going to listen to it all in an era where you have to be a blue blood for someone to listen to you ride. So so me, that's what we mean by the confluence of of timing ice versus the individual and it's hard to imagine anybody doing when hitler did other than hitler, because there This weird mix of I mean he's such a crazy mixed up, screwy weird character, the it's hard to imagine there being, bunch of those deeds walkin around. You know in the nineteen thirties, now the dog. I guess time person that you know one of those that, like points that we got stuck on recently, we did a a serial killer. We good at epsilon zero killer named JE de re. Ah, who was active during joan of arc time use active during the hundred years war and easy way to hide what's going on her yeah yeah? But he also because eulogy to re was like her main do now is like

her like an army captain, while that sort of my question is that there are some historic likes. His story to specialise in joan of arc denied mention g derived at all, or at least that he might get a small moment it is like a minor general and her army, but historians who focus specifically on character of g d re? Who is actually in an absolutely real person who you know how the high ranking position during the third phase of the hunt. Here's warning you here: they portray him as basically joan of arc best friend that, during joan of arc first battles, they he saved her life time and I'm again That he's been basically erased from history sense. So do you think that when historians right about subjects like joan of arc. Did they do you think that people sort of a race embarrassing? connections, embarrassing events in order to sort of the narrative that they want wellbeing

is the ancient idea about story ends and the problems that they face right at the very beginning. Right because you can't have a fifteenth thousand page history books so simply deciding what to include and what not to include begins the process, the pruning and trimming and and simply leaving things out. You changed the way things are viewed and it's not necessarily intentional, although it can be, but but even if you're trying to not have it be something that gives a false impression simply by having to trim and prune already changing the narrative in it because of the constraints menu Have the aliens may have a history books somewhere? That has every word of everything that's ever happen, but the rest of us have to prove right, so you introduce the form at ease in reality right there, and then you get to the point where europe, which is due do a deliberately now we should point out that a lot historians, because they have to sit there and prune, will say well.

just gonna narrowed. The focus which makes things right. I'm to tell you everything, we're going to know about joan of arc personally without getting into every friend she ever had, but then This is, and this is what history of whores a vacuum. Even in history, writing that's when it opens up the door saying. We had five thousand books on joan of arc and nobody's mentioned a serial killer best friend, so I'm gonna write book on the serial killer best friend and write your joan of arc fan, you read all the books on joan of arc, and that gives you more of the various pieces of the tiles that put together create a mosaic that gives you our view of the, but no one work and the inn, and if you're the work the focus is on joan of arc serial killer best friend, you're missing other things cause it's not a fifteen thousand page work so mean that that sort of how bye bye very nature of the of the limitations. In the number trees out there to make paper pages out of you get these deformities its

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is the best time to get. I exiled our listeners get an exclusive twenty percent off. I accept memberships when they sign up today and I exit l, dotcom, slash, l, LP, o t l visit, I exiled accomplish l, LP o t ill dig. It the most active learning programme out there at the best price Are you crazy? These kind of, like actual just practical things, changed the face of the but our entire, like by history. The reality of our entire reality, though wild to me that that's? Why, like history? Now you got me, I was never into this stuff, then, as the years when he really got me deepened to medieval history and that a whole area fascinates because their real there's depths theirs. All these things? You, I don't know what they're, what we're missing when you're reading within its it's interesting, though we did that

we'll just saying that, like of course, yes, they have to cut shoot up, they have the grave the print the books are gonna ship books, robotics Kennedy, the bull can't be twenty five pat was that's a great point and when it comes to getting people interested in history, what do you like? What's the str. What was the string for you? Because you can look at history through sports lens through music lens through political or politics lens? There are so many different ways that you can look through history and see of you know you could look at racism through the history of sports so on and so forth. What is a string for you that got you excited about the past and maybe something to help our audience that maybe wants to get into history like just a place to start, because it's such a state's history, it's pretty big. You know I go I went through I got through phases, so so people will ask me, sometimes you know why don't you do a show on seventeenth century india or something and I'll say because I don't know anything about seventeenth century india and all the shows that we do worth

is that I already had some pre existing knowledge about the reason I have pre existing knowledge about them is because at one time in my life, I was really into that. Subject: and even though I moved on from it, you know you retain a certain amount of foundational knowledge that you can then read new books on and sort of build off a rather, I don't not to start from no knowledge about seven. century india. I can work with things that I was into so all. The shows we donner are at one time or another were were subjects that obsessed me and if you look at the through put I'm ashamed to say almost in a lot of its military, and this again backed by monetary mom's, that I was the ito. How does a three or four year old? It's so interested in military affairs. When he's a equally nonviolent child at me. Now. Why would I know a good plumage I chose whose just working on diplomacy between essay. I had all we're, not fighting guys but I mean I mean but whatever I was it. You like, I was in the native americans for a while, but but the native

perkins, I was into were worry your native americans. I was an the ones who were you know it's beginning. Pudding things together with shellfish, and you know not nice little pottery things. I was interested in warriors, you know, and and so I mean that's the kind of stuff where you and learning about the pottery and the basket weaving and all that stuff. As a consequence of being drawn into the subject from the warriors side of it, and so it, if you think about that, being ground zero of an explosion? Then you ll, about the other things because of of being taken in by the subject matter connected to a military thing, and then you use that then, like we ve, talked about like the rest of the story, you have to flesh out for the context than ever. I really want to understand the world that these warriors livin. You want to stand. There reality their values, what they were losing when their culture was being destroyed. So for me the ground. Zero thing I think was was the military stuff and indeed I'm sorry. You did trigger why we know so much.

Shovels. We have seen the donner party of what is really got into the shovels that use in an area that we really needed about five pages. Each really loves wagon. Manifestly you guys made me think at the university of colorado in I don't know if it's the same as it used to be, but but the grill in student union is now the Alfred packer grill it was a cannibal against one of those donner pass type guys. It was a game, but on the other hand, you know that was the donner party was kind of what that is what got you into history. It was when we did our series on the internet. If you read this book called the indifferent stars above which and wherever the donner party, those people were forced to that, I think Alfred packer was I thinking he developed the taste of the holder brent there he was getting, I may add, a new desirable, but we I didn't, learn something important on that episode doing that series, because I really did get really

heavily into what they took on their wagons, like that they took with them out west, because I thought that said so much about the people themselves and you know what they expected once they got there and what they didn't expect to happen, but that was the first story I remember really reading and then getting warranted. Like my older history, medieval history of understanding, I was like, oh people had been just us for a long time. Wherever that, like we ve been these same idiots, do I'm going around for the same to dealing with the same stuff like the whole of this are the happy with that The party was literally just hubris. Ah a guide, is wanting to get a shortcut like you know like a thing where it's a very human idea of like we're just going to try to make work and try to cut this in half guys the american dream. We're gonna cut this enough half and then garabin he dies get even farther than that. You know what I've been into for the last couple of years. Is primates like looking at at

the share your hand. It isn't because it's the it's the exact thing you mentioned, but going even to the more base level right, Jeanne chimpanzees deal with each other is like watching human beings deal with each other at a map, more. You know when you bet you know you do the factoring in math. You get too like the common It was common denominator, isn't like watching you in society at the lowest common denominator, and I've become fascinated in that, and I think like I actually learn about human societies now studying the law. the common denominator in some of these higher ape group, and we are all comes together that really that really focuses when you get the music also, you totally changed my idea when it comes to the meetings, sardines and cigars that chain is everything man never really changes the temperature of the room at once. You mix it altogether is just such a beautiful thing and it helps you know just understanding. How much does history help you understand the present its apps,

I don't even understand how other people understand so so I have a friend whose one of these guys, who sees the entire world as math, write him in everything is factored through. His brain, what is his vessel? The actual wishes I should be so so so we'll have these discussions and I'm just fascinated by his thought process, and he is by mine because breathing in minors is for is through history, but not like history books, but I mentioned earlier the context right everything is it's the past episodes of the soap opera. I only understand now based on what happened yesterday, what happened the day before how we got to hear that I can even visualize, how other people figure things out without that, just like he can't figure out how other people figure things out without met, and I feel like there must be like twenty five. Thirty thirty five different ways of looking at the world and all of us fall into one of those various groups, and so I talk to

their history fans and when we first did the history show. I thought I was doing for other history, major types that why the early shows sound so different? I dont really give you any history, because I thought the audience was the people who already knew the history, it's just all the twists and funky stuff right, but those people I went to school with them. We all saw the world through that lens. Just like that, but I imagine a bunch of mathematicians also like my friend so so in any answer. Your question, It's the only way. I make sense of now it's the entire way I see the world alright So why is the greatest little monitoring and rear? You gave her a little longer. I want you to low, but what, if I want, I want to ask a couple of what is in this I am one of them bags. I want to ask you one big: what if was one that we really got into that way

sort of inspire by your world war. One series is the question of rasputin's like how important was rasputin's to world war, one. If you take the figure rasputin out of history completely. Does it? change world war, one or the history of russia at all I'm going to guess and will throw that out there in my mom, I'm gonna guess not because I think by the time rasputin's is making a real sort of impact on is really impact. Was he had the ear of the tsar of radio and his wife right? I think once russia, too, what the guns of august is about Barbara chuck means famous book which basically show, once the gears of the moment. in terms of the first month of the first world war, get going you're stuck right, described at once, like like pulling the pin on a hand grenade and then trying

decide. You're gonna put the pin back in there once you pull that, pin and in lose it somewhere, you're done dad. I think I think I think once some once russia starts gettin taking the key. It's funny because you can make- and this is why history is important too. You can make certain analogies with ukraine and russia today in the war going on their war, create such a strain on societies That is a challenge for their political systems, not to just collapse and what was happening in russia. Already before the first world war broke out me, they had a big revolution, revolutionary attempt at collapsed in nineteen o five read the war breaks out, nineteen fourteen so they already were, seeing the cracks in the edifice and soldier then put emit pressure on russia, the kind of casual these they were taking in the war, the amount of money that was being spent, the dissatisfaction among the public and all that sort of

stuff, put in motion and inevitable collapse. That was going to happen, and I don't think unless rasputin's could, convinced the tsar to end the war, and I dont think russia was in any position to end the war, and I think that the allied powers that he was allied with wouldn't have. Let him end the war, then I think russia stuck anywhere in there like a crazy trained to collapse while mentioning history and how it kind of conflates with modern era rasputin's or Lyndon Johnson and bigger debt, could you think here's the thing I ever specific view on Lyndon Johnson and that's then I think you know- and I tried it I try to say this- a lot of historical figures. I think he was trying right, I mean it.

if you take the money well of the same opinion sugar. In the question about the european ship me, I they grew sputum ivy either you talking like actual physical proportions that were talking about it or see that look at nearly you they'll regarding all you, ve got his right words you can not here. Tonight is my labours three through excise years. Why a favorite lyndon johnson story? You guys will appreciate this and I read it in a book about richard Nixon, who was the neck resident after Lyndon Johnson, so I dont know if it's true or not, but I read that when Nixon who was a quaker right, so he was raised a certain way when Richard Nixon got into the white house. There's the shower that the president uses in the shower right is bathroom, shower and and in jobs it had installed in the shower. A shower jet in the middle

of the shower that shots and right up so upset Nixon remains my wine. I Lyndon Johnson and staring god be or mad that obama put a basketball, gordon happy with buildings, and that's the perennial on my tail spray and a couple of the bed bill, why didn't bill Clinton? Put that back right know dirty man, I guess the last thing today. Henry wanted to ask you about alien. I just I saw you recently put out an essay about the. U S, p situation cause I noted you been trying to get into new, followed you a little bit. First ball dome oh: come into this: don't do it don't become a you followed, just they're going everything away from you lose everything he's been more upset. The never even, though, is got everything you wanted. The excuse me, but

Where are you out with it? I saw a neck now that this disclosure movement, whatever is happening whenever this, this David Grusha character talking about like, but what they have. They don't have in terms of having an object. Retrieval program like they have something. Maybe there's always like buzzwords from where you at now with Europe Standing of the you will foe phenomena like why Europe s. There was great. You have good break out of, like were those like this is the entire history of you follows you great. He as it is. I second you just shit it out in its incredibly how I believe. that and the best whereby us, of course, I can't believe. But how do you like we're? U at now with aliens like as it that's it I'd I don't I don't have an answer, because I'm not one of those people who tries to. I feel the same way about the kennedy fascinating about somebody who has a strong, the p, neither wake, as I just don't feel like. I have the evidence right, but I She ate and enjoy examining the potentials, and I am

body whose, whose I suspect that the math that has been done, that signal when you, when you start actually paying attend and I know you guys- probably already know this- I apologise, but when you start paying attention into how many planets are out there and in the universe? And this- is just assuming one universe right once you are getting into the idea of multi verses and all that then it starts getting in part. But once you realize is how many planets there are. Then it but a weird, almost becomes weirder to start saying that there isn't any more life out there than to say that there is now than you in the things like the great filter right. This idea that, if their, if there is life in all these play, Is that what is happening to kill off before develop spaceflight? Those are off fascinating ideas. As a book I have called and he could old, I? Where are they or something? And it's a book: it's a book basically about the whole question that if they're all out there where

are they in wherever they may again? I would but I love allegest, whose family is that decided to leave a weird? If my wife go, that's right, that's right sets up, but but so the answer the question is, is it I'm very listed in the subject, because I always wonder- and this is how a history mind works- also that if aliens did come to the planet, earth or major you a major world governments were It aware that there were aliens how on earth would they handle it right. What would be an here's? A better question What would we? How would we want them to handle it and that's something we did in that article you mentioned, which will start a wonder if the government- new about aliens and we wanted the government to act the way we want them to act, how would we want them to act? And I read this book: u f, o's, and that was sort of part of what we hinge. That article that you mentioned on and the author tried to take a sort of a skeptical approach, but some of the things that he brought up that would happen to us if aliens were real, I had never thought of you and the one

the one that was the most interesting to me. Was the religious question. I'm on your. If aliens know what happens to us after we die what, if they know about, is there are? Isn't there a god? And if there is a god, what is the god may do they instantly invalidate all of our religions in instantly invalidate oliver religions, while anybody whose Any attention to religious wars are just what happens, but we do religions when they start fighting people die. Oh yeah, saying: ok! If the government knows that exposing as to the fact that there are aliens would explosives to all these things it would destroy the structures upon which are our world is built? Would we want them to not tell us, would one them dinghies us into it, and for me without because I don't have the evidence to say if there are or aren't aliens, but we can have a great amount of funds speculating on if there were. How would that best be really to us, and maybe I remember there was at a theory years

ago when they started making movies. I close encounters of the third kind and all these things that this might be part of the plan. Right now there is all part of easing us so that we became more comfortable. The idea we didn't do it like nineteen fifties flying saucer types died no, I had, of course, with the war of the worlds how that radio play turned out. I think there is reason to be hesitant theories. You worry in power, I suppose I do believe there is some talk, but I do believe that there is some slow roll out that they're trying to get us understand something, and I dont know what it is, but I think the smart religions or just folding it in the vatican has a whole will you full logical deportment, like they barely gets, one of the people that might have a ufo they're saying that they might have something in some way in the vatican city, which is to be the best coolest slash. serious thing I possibly imagine emulate Morton's or north eastern catholic. It's just, I feel it gets,

and one of those things rolling, you do now run harboured sort of folded into his three men. Tat is the only reveal gets. You are tired. You know it's common by then. Once it gets you well yeah, they do what they thank you said almah joining us. We can't tell you how much we appreciate it is very nice to have me out. I hope it lived up to the hype. Now have. I wish I was just thinking about. What's the Dan carlin from twenty three thirty, what's that history, podcast gonna be and it will be interesting that we as we live this history together, it'll be fascinating to see how it all goes. What's going to happen when the analogue generation dies out and nobody remembers what it was like job, there will never be a game of hopscotch again as a tragedy, and I also want to say to our listeners if you enjoyed our series on the manhattan project

Karl Heinz episode. That was called the destroyer of worlds. It's a six hour episode about what happened next butler It starts, and I am I enjoyed. It amends I can't I'm an airy, rainbows unicorns, just like all of you all so much for listening dan, Carl and obviously check out hard core history, I am sure many of you have already, but if you have it, it's a must, listen and dan again for me, but yours pike, s, legend did you you're over so many an honour to be on guys. They was it on. I argue they ain't you sent by all right. There was a conversation with denmark. Is he held it together? Thank you, yeah really good. I did better than I did with castle with blazon sugar due to have no you do we have a debt of cuba's so much realistic, any good tat, always markets and you could take away. He was wonderful

It was easy was just so by his hands ass if they were radio guys most of them. That say, I gotta face for radio actually has a book and the ones who are like I'm studley, steve, looking partake, Well, that's the joke! From the wayne's world, handsome dan, hey all right, work is hard. Work is ok. Thank you for listening inhalers, he'll say to l, guid biggest relations, everyone naomi. He go to get fuckin listen to, well great, for education has gone down cell yeah go figure, and if I have one more thing, one more plug for hardcore history, if you want to get the first fifty five episodes you need to go to his website. you can buy em there. They are absolutely worth the money like their audio books, all on their own. go to the rss feed and I think it seven called glow it'll. Give you a little copy and paste link. Where can put it on your part cast up so yeah bows. I'm goes to the austrian sort with count. an arm armageddon. Any of em are all incredible, already

What does he say goodbye? show was made possible by listeners. Like you think, store, add sponsors. You can support our shows by supporting them for more. Shows like the one you just listen to go to last podcast network dot com. This episode is, but you by star feel embark on an epic journey through Stars and bethesda game studios, first new universe and over twenty five years in this, generation, roleplaying game, you decide who you are and what you will become. The most important story is the one that you tell Captain your own ship, as you venture, through the settled systems exploring over one. And planets well unravelling, humanity's greatest mystery for all into the starfleet visit w w w death star field game dotcom to learn more and pre order raided em for mature, unleashed gaming greatness.

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