This episode was recorded on Feb 14th, 2021
Jonathan Pageau and I discuss, among other topics, the issue of conscience, narrative with objective reality, perfect mode of being, the responsibility to move things towards the divine, the inevitability of religion, significance of the virgin birth, Theosis, the idea of heaven, and more.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome to the Jordan, be Petersen Podcast. My name is Michaela, this apathy
future. Jonathan Patio and Jordan Petersen discussing the issue of conscience. Narrative
objective reality, the perfect
of being the response.
We need to move things towards the divine. The
credibility of religion, the significant
so the virgin birth, the idea
of Heaven and much much more. It was recorded
in February fourteen twenty twenty one June.
In parallel, as a symbolic thinker, Youtube her and class carver of orthodox icons. He makes them.
Amazing icon, carvings big news, dad
book is coming out Tuesday Marge second, beyond
order available at his website adorned me Petersen, dot com, Amazon wherever you buy books, and he has posters for sale,
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but mainly the buck available Tuesday or for pre order now add Jordan be Petersen. Dotcom enjoy this episode,
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So too
I have the great pleasure of speaking with Jonathan Patio.
Whom I know primarily as a thinker carver
orthodox icons that are absolutely beauty.
I have one in my house of Saint Michael and the dragon and an increasingly
Prominent you prominent among intellectual
you tubers. I would say essentially, as
It can only those who are interested in religious and philosophical and artistic ideas and Jonathan. I have been
talking back and forth, for I would think about. Sixty
seven years now way
men and twenty fifteen at that time? It's crazy time flies. It's crazy.
For sure
so why are we haven't spoken fur
two years. Maybe
are, we saw each other. I think when you put came out- and you came to monterrey- offer a little event and I picked up at the airport now as the last
time we saw each other yeah
a lot of water under the bridge. That's right! Indeed,
and in your case literally yes,
actually in whom Jonathan Joe
This house was flooded out. That was win
It was in twenty nineteen, but we
back into our house this Christmas, and so it was a long kind of along thing. It lasted a very long time
and are you in your house right now? Yes,.
I'm in my my house all fixed up, and so were we
enjoying it were happy to be back, I bet it must
an unbelievably dislocated to be flooded like that, do your homework
and filled with water. If I remember correctly, the exact
It was a dyke broke in the industry.
And you know I think, as thousands of people going evacuated within an hour or two
my kids is actually was my kids and even my wife. It was a little bit of a trauma because it was wrong
could see the water coming and there were cops in and in all these
fire men in everything, and so it was a pretty intense moment. Yeah and work
where, where were you living when your house was underwater,
moved around. We lived in my parents than we rented a place and we had to move, and so we ended up living in three places during their about a year and a half that we were gone so that it was a
it was one of those things where you know we say: symbolism happens. You know a lot of it.
That even you talk about it, I talk about just manifested themselves. This problem,
of the dialogue, and the idea of you know
corruption or inattention to
situation and then thinking yours
when in fact, they were not aware of wits with kind of looming on the margins and
and so for me,
was a real learning experience. I hope that I have come out of it.
Stronger and more more attentive, let's say, yeah
I hope so too. I mean we all hoped that we come out of unpleasant exe
France is stronger than when we went in, although it isn't always the case. It's the case when
your functioning optimally and when you're, fortunate and courageous- and I suppose, as
just as you can be, but fortunate definitely ranks high among all of those.
Necessary precondition
for successful recovery. I would say- and I have to
that I am sweetheart. I am so grateful to see you
online. We know
now. I know you ve heard this, but there have been thousands of people. Thinking about you, praying for you and really Rep
bidding for you and you
I actually saw Tammy last year, I when I went to bring your icon and- and I just remember.
Just feeling helpless and- and you know she was like- we would- you go to Russia gathered her hushed up a curtsey to open in Russia. It didn't see like it was a reasonable thing to do in and is probably better than happened, but we have definitely been praying for you in writing for you and think about your Jordan New. I appreciate that a lot, and
I'm back. To some degree, I would say I still think I'm running it about five percent. So beyond
that's partly why I was concerned about
can do today, and we are generally
Gus things that are relatively deepened, it's still difficult for me to go
deeply into anything, that's happening to me because it so unbelievably awful and its it
it's been hard on my face, I would say in and thence I buy me. A book is coming out of my new book. I should show I just
Yesterday,
order. It's an it's unbelievable that Europe
during all of this. I can't believe that when you say you're running at five percent, I think that your five percent is his pretty close to the hundred per
and before people here. Well,
without true or not, but it's five percent for me and getting the book
Actually, somewhat of a traumatic experience, I would say, because it reminded me, like it said it's it's it's,
concrete reminder of everything that happened over the last three or four years and it off
that I found very difficult process, both
the social front and honour. Let's
biological with health front, so
there was reading. Oddly enough, I
book sent to me by Bishop Baron, the first draft of a book and it's written by a couple of professors.
Jordan Petersen, God and Christianity. The search for a meaningful life by Doktor Christopher
sir, and Doktor Matthew pressure. Sick were
Fire Institute to Catholic responds to
biblical series, and hopefully they
would be to upset about me talking about it today, but I won't talk a lot about much the book itself. It was rather a shock to me.
There are loyal. A merry Mount University was kind of a shock.
Me to see them talking about my I mean
religious scholars talking about my biblical series. But I think people are just people
a lot of people didn't understand, and I guess
it in my react with the way people, rural reacting, t, biblical studies, the equivocal interpret,
asian people didn't understand. How is it that he we can barely get on
people in a church, and Jordan has a million people
listening to him kind of struggle,
tat to get through these passages in and do it in a very improvisational kind of
potential way and
and to me it's funny, because I mean I think I have a group. I have
deep affection for you're. The way that you
crossing an eye and obviously we connect together in the way we think in so to me it was like
is what you guys should have didn
for a while is try to
You stand how it is that this stuff is talking about reality and not just a bunch of arbitrary,
things that you
to believe that you need to kind of attend to and end.
These stories, they really are telling us about the structure of being, and so I think that that's the way did you approached it and and that's why people are resonating to what you're saying
as they like. Finally, someone can can can help us make
many of these story that, whereas some how strangely attracted to or for us
by disgusted by or whatever it is, but there's this pushing pole with these stories, and so so I think that I've seen a lot
Christians listen to your biblical thoughts in of course, and that you say
things and they like ok, that's way off the rails and then other time
Savings ended. They can believe the insight that you're able to to pierce, and so
so. I I'm not at all surprised that Catholic Scholars with would kind of look at what you were doing and that we all hope that you're going to do more of that for sure
yes. Well, I would like to I'm thinking about trying to attend
the book on exodus and lecture to lectures is well, though I wouldn't say that I'm in any shape to do that, yet I'm, but it too
ream. Let's say I mean I'm pretty much.
Completely non functional for the first three or four hours of the day I get up and
can barely stand up and
go have a sauna for an hour and off to sleep during that
period of time and then at the same time I could break
stop are used in agriculture, and then I go walk for anywhere between seven and ten miles and even though I can buy,
Tom. I get out of the house, I'm dizziness
can be, and I've difficult to stand up, but
after about a mile or two, I get my
eggs under me to some degree and then by two o clock. I
kind of functional, although extremely anxious, and then I'm able to do a little bit of work and often too
sit down at four o clock. My mind seems sharp enough. Although my memory isn't good. I can't bring things to mind like I used to go to school,
distressing and
I have very little emotional resilience and I'm worried
That reason about the release of this book coming, I suggested at Times Interview London Times interview that was really there.
Followed since that frustrating it's it's it's I mean it's funny because
you know again, it was like the same stories are playing out again. This person goes after you and then it just turns
against that person and- and it's just she's exposed for
fraud that she was being and during that interview, and so
thinking the strange that it keeps happening over and over. I'm in a hurry, decided not to do mainstream interviews. Now
for a good while because I've its
to me that I've gone to the well of public sympathy so to speak enough times and that if this
and to me two or three more times. Let's say people are going to rightly say
how many times does it take for Petersen to learn? And so I dont
want that to happen. I mean I've been,
why seal and obligation to my publishers, obviously to talk about the book. Although that interview,
virtually nothing to do with the book we hoped it would. I would fail to discuss my health issues with someone who would treat them squarely and then
could ignore them from then on bottom. That isn't what happened?
but a spin is a sign of the politicized discourse. I give you its assent,
of the breakdown that were going through, that we see this capacity to have so
entrenched decide that people are
Does it doesn't matter what they do? It doesn't matter what they say. They don't feel
like their responsible, because in a way, you're the enemy and
if, as you, its other other it's between different groups, but if you're the enemy, then everything is justified and
Realising a huge part of this is is driven by the desire to have an enemy yeah renders it is very difficult to feel.
It's an easy route to self righteousness to have an enemy exactly
and it's a great place to put all evil
and because you attract so much attention. Your easy, your death, an easy target,
That's the theory seems not to turn
that way
but it's also was the timing. You know
the way when you kind of came up in the public,
fear there was a massive shift happening in culture
and I think that one of the things you could feel- and that was happening around us and to some extent in a dialogue,
had something to do with that, is well in the sense that it
this malaise that was there and this kind of
his jostling in this this, and this is what
led to all that kind of discourse, and so I think that you,
were identified, you became identified almost physiologically. I guess, as
as a character and an people you know have treat you that way and they,
with you that way in many respects. Yesterday light comes very difficult to understand,
I'm very difficult for me to understand what character I am you know,
so much has changed in my life over the last
five years. I'm I've been on leave from the university, so that's very destabilizing. I dont have my clinic
practice anymore, and so I was you know, seeing twenty people a week so that
huge, try.
Formation in my life, my my house is being completely renovated. It was renovated. Well, my wife was ill, and so we didn't while it
renovation went on in our absence and so on
the forerunner in my own house, which is which is, although I'm starting to be
accustomed to. It knew some things I like about the new house, but I dont
at home in it- I wouldn't say I've only been here for two months in the last three years, because I was
the road and then well all this.
And so did and everything that happened has been very disruptive for my family, and course
We got so unbelievably, second with something that was supposed to be fatal and recover more or less, miraculously
Then I've been so unbelievably ill or still am, and I have just said
just don't know where to put any of this, I can
think about the past at all, because so much
it is in compress
sensible, especially over the last five years. I can't think about the present, because I'm in so much pain- and I can't think about this
because I don't know what I'm going to do and I have no idea how long this pain is going to last. It's been, I've been in pain,
really severe pain for two years now and and doubts.
It's a strange thing is in this book. One of the chapters in the last
chapter is called, be grateful in
of your suffering, you know, and they went every
through every sentence in that chapter. A very large
number of times, because much of the time
well. I was re writing it particularly. I was in a lot of pain and like its crib it it's it's it's a pain level, that's hard to
fathom in some sense, because I would say every single day I have now is worse than
any day I ever had in my life before I got ill so and then
I know very well that term batty
bitterness to you
malaise is a very bad idea. You know it doesn't help, but that that I-
certainly see the attraction and that I feel like shaking my fist up the sky and
training bitterly and but it it doesn't help, but it but
it doesn't seem to be any relief either, and so that's it. So it
no perverse, had shaken my face. I suppose I mean
Is perverse position where my work as in principle helped so many people,
In the end, I don't seem to be able to dig myself out of my,
circumstances. So.
Or even to make sense of them yeah. I think that I think that the role that
you ve you played is, is a kind of a transition, roar and
that transition manifests itself to you as a as air
Trying to have your feed on two sides of reacting
two islands at our floating away from each other, and you you
you're trying to hold on you're trying
kind of help people focus on the middle and help people avoid rat
innovation and avoid falling into camps in a manner that will lead to. The God knows
and so I think that I think the debts
role that you played and its and it's been
I like I've- seen, for example, people transition,
through your work, transition from worlds moving worlds,
It's really what I've seen happen is more.
And just changing the way
in your opinion, or changing your mind about something really is about changing the world you and have it, and so that's that's crazy. That's it
easy role to play, and especially because, like I said you, you have your foot,
You can have your one foot.
One eyelids aid. Looking towards, I would,
all religions are looking towards Croatia.
Eddie errors or something like that, and then you have another I, which is still very much,
worse in a kind of secular humanism, and
you have one leg: that if you want
stand, people that are more left leaning, you understand people that are more right, leaning you how this capacity to kind of understand everybody, but you're yeah! That's it!
That means that you make enemies on on all sides to well. You know,
the overwhelming response that I've got publicly has been I
Say traumatically positive,
wouldn't think that that would be possible really, but I find it that way. I mean Part
its overwhelming to have people constantly tell me in person
their responses to what I've been doing it
emotional and I get caught up in that quite quickly. And of course,
on Youtube and the social media platforms. You two particularly the bulk of the comments about
we are very, very positive.
It's ninety nine to one, often in terms of likes and dislikes it and and they'd too much. Why don't we
dont know how to I dont know how to I dont know what kind
going to put it in. I dont know how to conceptualize it. I mean part of part of me. The practical part,
of course, as well. I just happen to adopt a new
knowledge at a time when it started to boom and failed
kind of nations. It was empty in that technology at that time, but in some sense that that doesnt really cut it. You know.
It doesn't have anything to do with the content. Then I think what
Have been dealing with these while border
religious issues, while certainly not just borderline? There's lots of religious people who seem to think that I'm dealing with religious issues and.
Well, that's really what I wanted to talk to you about tonight, so
This book I mentioned earlier to talk about.
Agreements with by conceptualisation of Christ? Let's say
which are, and I'm not sure what that conceptualisation is by the way exactly it's.
ST me, but
but I can say some some concrete things about it. I mean I certainly
I can understand and appreciate the symbolic
if, against of the ideal human being in that fight.
Its embodiment, and I took these ideas in large part from union and Eric Norman that that Christ is a represent.
Praise is at least a representation of the ideal man,
whatever that isn't and we we all interesting enough. We all seem to have an ideal and we,
that I or that ideal has us right and that's where its
the interesting to consider the role of conscience, because Europe,
conscience will call you out on your behavior and
which seems to function as something that somewhat independent or at least
something that you can't fully voluntarily control, because if you could voluntarily control it, then
just tell the pesky little bastard to go away or to Papua.
Back continually because there,
be few things in life more pleasurable than than being fully committed, narcissist too
really believe that everything that you do is right and that you're a good person and I suppose, if
did wave a magic wand and rearrange your minds so that it was constantly telling you that you do it, but you don't seem to
able to do that in relationship to your conscience? It trips you up and so
and so it tells you when you're not living up to
your own ideal, and that means that you have an ideal and you don't even know what the hell it is, but you certainly know when you transgress against it, and I know that
a strong line of christian thinking, that's identified the conscience, with divinity
sometimes with Christ inside someone
with the Holy Spirit and
we are very interesting conceptualisation, but you can think of them psychologically and you can even think about them biologically. You know to some degree
because we're so social if we don't manifest an approach,
moral reciprocity, organ
to become alienated from our fellows and we want
survive and it will suffer and die, and we won't, we certainly won't find a partner and and
children successfully and so to some
degree the conscience can be viewed as the voice of
reciprocal society within and that's a perfectly reasonable biological explanation. But but the thing
as is the deeper you go into biology, the more it shades into something that appears to be religious because you start annulled.
Using the funds
mental structure of the psyche itself and it becomes something while it big becomes something with a power with with
with a with with a power that transcends your ability to resist it,
So ok, so you can think about grace from a psychological perspective and that the credit, the critic, my critic, this particular critic that I've been reading.
Said well that that doesnt differentiate Christ much from a whole sequence of dying in resurrecting mythological gods, and of course, people have made that claim in
parity of religion, Joseph Campbell, did that and you to a lesser degree I would say, but Campbell did that, but the d
France and see us Louis pointed this out as well. The difference between those mythological gods and Christ was that there is theirs
representation of there's, a historical
representation of his of of his
distance as well. Now you can debate whether
that's genuine, you can debate
whether or not he actually lived and whether there is credible objective evidence for that, but it doesn't matter.
In some sense, because this, while it does, but
There is a sense in which it doesnt matter because through still a historical story, and so what you have in the figure of Christ is an actual person who actually live plus a myth and in some
Since Christ is the union of those two things, the
MRS. I probably believe that, but I don't know I don't
amazed at my own beliefs- and I dont understand because
I've seen sometimes the objective,
world and the narrative world touch.
You know: that's the union synchronicity
he that many times in my life.
And so in some sense, I believe its undeniable. We know we have a narrative sense of the world for me that,
in the world of morality. That's the world that tells us how to act,
It's real like we treated like it's real, it's not the objective world
narrative and the object of world touch and the out
an example of that in principle is supposed to be Christ, but I dont know what to do, and that seems to me
oddly plausible. But I still don't know
to make of it? It's too had partly because it's too
terrifying, a real
me too, fully believe I don't
no, what would happen to you if you fully believed it if you believed in the story of Christ,
if you believe that history and and
to the narrative make meet level,
I don't think you, because we,
you believe that you, by both those stories, you believe that the narrative and the objective can actually touch
we saw that you- and I mean this- is a trivial example, but we had a when
were discussing we had to seek,
of discussions. Rome, frog, symbolism.
Four years ago I was-
very bizarre to say the least. You know now what
trivial example. Relatively trivial example of the narrative world in the objective world coming together, didn't feel
trivial, at the time, while the way
The way that I like to deal with this is that one of the few
Is it it it's already there in your thought
It's already there in the way that you talk about reality, which is that one of them,
attitude of aspects of
How reality unfolds and how it appears to us is something like attention
It's something there's a hierarchy of of manifesto.
Because everything that happened that appears to us in the world has an infinite amount of details like it has an indefinite amount of ways it you could describe it. Did you good angled it by which you could analyze it
Enzo. Nonetheless, the world appears to us through these,
Turkey's of meaning right, I always can use the example of a cop or a chair. Take a chair is is just a multitude of things. It's a multitude of parts. How is it that we can say that it's one thing? There's it there's a couple
we have to attend this capacity we have to attend is something like a co creation of the world.
And so the world actually exists, not share is a good example, because you know you can try to define it objectively, but you end up with being bags and stumps and examined
we don't have anything in common while they're, both made of matter. You know, for whatever that's worth its pretty pretty trivial.
Of course reality, but you can sit on them.
As we have now is a mode of being which define the alarming that sir, so strange. So many of our object perceptions are projected modes of being
and so even the object of world is in reluctantly contaminated with its utility and within it
therefore with morality exactly until I think that that's the key, the keys that
When do you understand that the world manifests itself through attention and consciousness has a place to pay
and actually the way in which the world reveals itself, and so you can. You can
right deposit, a world outside of that first person perspective, but it see a good booted, its aid to deluded,
you're. It's also did so very, very difficult because you don't you don't know what to make of it
thing like time, because time hasn't in Iraq
the company subjective element and duration, which is different than time. I mean time is kind of like the average rate at which things too,
and but duration is something like the felt sense of that time and with you, take away,
subjectivity. It isn't obvious what to do with time and I think physicists stumble over this all the time so to speak. So can this is something that,
this intermingling of value. In fact with something that I never thought. I never thought it made much tracks,
with with Harris with SAM Harris,
you didn't, seem to me to be willing to admit
how saturated the world of fact is inevitably with value
I actually think he's denying the science at that point because for
breathing. I know about perceptual psychology he's a great book called
vision as a oh god, no
Remember the name of vocs: that's memory, trouble I'll, remember it is that
is that if that is true,
then there are certain things which come out of that
certain necessary
down the road from that that incite, which is that attention plays a part in the way the world laid itself out and that one of them and the one of those that this stuff, that the world is made of his partly something like attention, something my consciousness.
That has a patter and that pattern is the same pattern as stories it just ages? It
then, let's about exactly the same. But things exist with a pattern which is similar to stories. They have identity
they have centres. They have margins, have exceptions and
that's how stories lay themselves out like saw a story
happens in time. How an eye
entity. Let's eight is
broken down and then reconstructed. You could say that that basically, the story of every story
how something breaks down any reconstructed and so
That is a way for us to perceive the identity of things and job. If the world is made of this, then it's actually
It's actually our world, our secular world, which is a strange aberration.
On how reality used to exist for every culture in every time. From the beginning of time, which is to take that for granted to take for granted that something that they didn't call it consciousness. But intelligence
and attention are part of how the world lays itself out and it lay this out in modes of being and one of the things that
out of it is not only that but, like you said
Not only that you have ideas, but its ideas have you or that it's not only that you engage in modes of being that modes of being have you
Recognition means that the first level of the first level of attention to that looks something like worship. It looks like celebration, it looks like it.
It's. I got the thing which makes the let's eat the National Hockey League, so successful,
more to do with celebration than just a bunch of guys on skates on a piece of ice. You know throwing apocrypha
There is a celebration of the purpose of that thing in a manifest itself through a bunch of stuff which one is like
Brophy that stand in the middle. On the top of a bunch of honour,
stand and everybody looks at it in kisses it, and- and- and so there's this
this veneration yeah go in there that mascots link. The hockey league example is very interesting because it's it's it's,
social game and know all the players. Are there.
Opting to aim right right. So there
symbolic element to that sin is misplaced aim, and so you hit you
the small space in the net block them
maybe by your enemies,
Everyone celebrates that any friend you do that in cooperation with other people and in competition with other people, and if you do it properly, not only are you a brilliant player from a technical perspective, but you are also a great sport, and so there is an error
Ec therein, immorality- and- and this is why people are
upset when hockey players or any other pro athlete does something immoral in their personal life is because it violates the the ethic that that's being
celebrated as a consequence
of this great game right
so you can see that that the striving for an ideal motive being the religious striving for an ideal motive being is central to what it is that makes hockey addictive
yeah. It necessarily and the answer,
daughter pro wrestling new majority men tree bread heart,
hit men hearts, one of the best documentaries I've ever seen, and it portrays
pro wrestling as a stark religious battle,
between the forces of good and evil and bread heart. Who at one point was the most famous Canadian in the world was over
well by his the architecture,
force of his represent
Mission as the good guy, it's a great documentary, Hitman heart
and ended shows you how you know:
wrestling is. Is it's not the world
Most intellectual activity to say that
east and people can easily be dismissive of it, but one
the things I loved about the documentary was that it attempted to understand
and from within what was compelled
about what was being portrayed in. It was a religious drama. It just death was shocking.
Brilliant, and so so
is that is actually there is this. There is an objective part of that that there is an
effective way in which these patterns kind of come
gather and manifest that a higher and higher versions of this drama, and so the sport,
drama has a certain level but its its limited,
certain extent because it still happens as it.
Cantation letter between two irreducible science, and so what happens
something like the story of Christ, is that that gets taken into one person until all the opposites become
the king and the criminal there
the highest, even in the image of the cross. You have this image, then the ash crisis being crucified, they're, putting aside above his head, saying that he's the king ass crisis being beaten, they are giving to him a crown, and so
We joined together all the opposites, and so in his in his story,
You see if you, if you're attentive to these patterns, you see the highest form of this pattern being played out.
And one of the aspects that has to be there for it to be the most reveal their.
His form is that it also has to include the world of manifestation.
It cannot just be a story. It has to be connected to the world. So that's why Chris
and insist on the fact that Jesus is,
just a story that he's an incarnates. It meant that he was in current.
But I dont believe they're insistence well
this is. This is because I dont it isn't
we have to me and I think maybe I d
This criticism from nature, but me
people have asked me whether or not I believe in God and I've answer,
various ways no but
I'm afraid he probably exists. That's that's one answered he. I know, but unterrified. He might exist that that would be truthful answer to some degree or that I act as if God exists, which I think is. I do my best to do
but then there is a real stumbling block their because.
There is no limit to what would happen if you acted like God existed, you know what
mean because I believe that that acting not out fully.
I mean. Maybe it's not reasonable to say two believers, you aren't you
transformed for me to believe that you believe in God,
that you believe the story that you're telling me you're. Not you not
efficient you're. Not the way you live
sufficient testament to the truth.
People would certainly say that lets say about the catholic church, or at least in the way that it's been portrayed is that with all the sex,
corruption, for example, its, like really really, you believe,
the Son of God- did it Jesus come
was the Son of God, and yet you act that way, and I'm supposed to buy your belief and and
seems to me that the church is actually quite guilty on that account because
the attempts to clean up the mess have been rather half hearted. In my estimation, and so I dont think people people don't matter
Christians, Don manifestos and I'm, including myself. I suppose that description
perhaps dont
first, the
transformation of attitude that would enable
Naples the outside observer, too easily conclude that they believe tat the other way,
the way to deal with that? The way to it
I understand that is that it they do with it,
do in a hierarchy
there is a hierarchy of manifestation of the transformation that God offers the world and
kind of live in that hierarchy and those above us hold us together. You would say:
in the church- there's a testimony of the saints theirs. They are story. There are hundreds and hundreds of stories of people who live that out in their particular context, to the limit of what
it's possible to live it, and even today there are there.
Saints living saints who, for example,
you're that extradition. We have this idea of what they call it: the gift of tears or the joyful sorrow of of people who live in prayer, a with weeping inconstant weeping and it's this kind of
a strange mix of joy and and sadness which day which kind of over
on them? And they live in that joint sadness, nonstop and they pray in a without end and so that exist. But then we
in this dip, that's one of the reasons why
that's kind of one of the reasons why, when I talk about this idea of attention like it, manifests itself in the in the church as well, is that you
often say- and I understand it when you say something like you know- I act as if God exists, or you know, I'm.
Aid to Haiti, cod exist, and I think it's because you, you think, are used
and to think that the moral wait like of that.
So strong that you would-
would crumble under it, that you would just be crushed under it and
and I believe that- and I think that that is. I think that
I understand that, but.
The first thing that to act as if God exists. Let's say this way to act as if God exists. The first thing that I ask of you is not a moral action. The first thing that it ask ask ask of you is attention, that's why to act as if God exists is first of all
to worship. That's ended. I know people Guinness here this about then I'm gonna have a terrible problem without economic, because I'm in so much pain like one of the things that one,
salute theologians disgusting
the aim of an Soria. I want won't, let you get back to your point, but he discussed the idea of the yoke of
is being light and that there is joy in it and
There's a paradox there, obviously because it's it's also it take
Your cross and follow me sort of thing, but
fact that I've been living in constant pain makes. The idea of joy seem cruel, I would say,
so I have no idea how to reconcile myself. To that I mean I've reconcile myself to that by staying alive. Despite it, you know, although.
By staying alive despite it. But there is very little worship,
it doesn't mean I'm not appreciated,
what I have
Not only am I appreciate if what I have, I do, every
I can to remind myself of it all the time, and so does my wife. I mean she's changed quite a bit as a consequence of her struggle with cancer and no one should become
more overtly religious, I would say, and in a we say great
before our meal and in the evening, and it's very serious enterprise and it always centres around gratitude to know before well for for the ridiculous
Volume of blessings that have been showered down upon us,
that volume- that's really quite in common
sensible, but despite that, no outlet
despite that, I'm struggling with this because I dont know how to reconcile myself to the to the fact of constant pain. Can I
don't. I feel that its unjust, which is half
way to being resentful, which is not a good outcome. No, I I
I agree and I can't speak like I can't I dont know how to speak to that cause. I don't necessarily dont have experience. You know I don't I I don't have that. I don't know
with constant pain. It's I don't know what that would do to me. You'd, probably problem
the reasons why it might ruin me. You know until it's very difficult to answer that. I think that the
sir, like the answer has been the cross. Like that's been, the answer it needs. Maybe may be easy for me to say it that way, but that's always been the answer of
of Christianity, which is that the guide went to through the cross and that God went down into death and and plunge down into debt
then there are that there are mysteries, hidden and
or maybe they're very well hidden, but there are miseries headed in that then that depth.
But it's not, I don't think it's my job to to do more.
Lies to you at this for at this particular moment. So we talked him
The narrative and the objective touching, and so I wanted to touch on that again- is that, like idea,
I understand Cs Louis's argument, and you know, I'm even inclined from TAT
in due time to think what I've got the choice between bleeding to impossible things. I can neither believe that in,
world is constituted so that God took on flash and was crucified and and and died in rows three days later or I can believe that here
beings invented this unbelievably preposterous story that stretched into every atom of of culture and end. It is obvious to me that this,
second hypothesis, is any reason to believe that the first, because the more you investigate that the manifestation
of the story of Christ, the more insanely complicated and far reaching it become so I
in Ireland, for example, and for all of those who are least
If you want to read a book that will completely
make you insane, then you
renewables ion and it
study of Christians.
Symbolism in astrology which doesn't sound, pretty
very dangerous, but our or or or even
particularly necessary to read, I suppose, but Yo Yo describes the the
Next, the position of astrological and Christians,
symbolism and it's a brilliant book and it's terrifying, because he he outlines the concordance between the levels of symbolism over seven
thousand years and its obvious when you read the book that no one,
what is this? It's, not a conspiracy, whatever
going on to make that clear
prudence occur, isn't some
that we understand and it seems to be best understood as one
these situations, where the narrative and the objective touch
the saturation of Christianity with fish symbolism, young associates with astrological movement of of up in
the House of Pisces and, and so he he describes how a drama. So
ancient people saw drama played out in the sky, and that was objection of their imagination and that
Jackson contained symbols that were associated with the emergence of Christianity, and so
you can see in that the the of the alternative,
explanation is that there is this there's this on
holding of a symbolic landscape over centuries or millennia. That's part of human by law
people in cultural evolution, but that that starts to
touch on the religious anyways when you, when you describe it in those terms that gets its
the operation of a cognitive of unnatural
cognitive process. Let's say
natural, slash, cognitive process that supersedes any one individual or any one culture, and so
I've never seen a critique of eye on you know. I think people read that book and they think her. It's like
on a leg, Rosa the sacred
the mushroom in the sacred crossed. Do you know of that book? I believe. That's the title. That's another book, you read new, think well,
I have no idea what it it's. A study of.
Mushroom symbolism in Christianity and it's another book that it claims that
Christianity was heavily influenced my so
I've been using. It was published in the nineteen sixties. It's amazing book, but it's another book. You read me
I have no idea what to do without. I have no place to put that book. So,
but I on is really like that, and
one of the things that, for example, you know we ve talked about just me
for the idea that you know
these cries being a dying in resurrecting God, and you know that
really actually not the case. If you ask
Just look at the story of Christ and not just the story in scripture, but late, Liddy, the whole story and it can develop and tradition in kind of melted together.
Engine worthy had this idea of God's. It went down into the underworld, you know
that went down for some reason to visit or went down to save somebody even or you know or
or or died and then and then rose again, but that's actually not the story of Christ, because if you, if you understand the full tradition
the christian story, we think that Christ died, went into Haiti's and then destroy death.
And he pulls everybody out of death. And then that's it like
What other story are you going to tell after that story
a story of some
who dies goes into death and then take and then destroys death and end? That's it like that. That's the thing with cried story that every story, every aspect of his story reaches the limit,
storytelling and if it's impossible banks in the you got it right. That's right! That's right! While even from a psychological perspective, that's correct!
That in itself is a kind of miracle and failures
dark in some sense constantly having to choose between miracles. It's like ok, it's if it's a figure,
of the human imagination fine, but it's the limit figment in more.
The pull ways? How did that happen, and also
but as soon as you started start to think that the world is made of attention, the idea of just a figment of somebody's.
Donation press release of just a figment of someone's imagination. Witches happens, like you said over thousands of
years within communities of thousands of people, it just becomes a ridiculous statement. It does
it doesn't mean anything it's like,
It only mean something. If you assume that and a new pointed this out, it only mean something. It only
say it's a figment of imagination and have that
brush aside, means that you think that imagination is nothing and deal pointed out constantly that you should not
did nothing to the psyche. Midge
You depend upon it the ground of your existence. It's it's it's! It's not nothing! It's the thing you that
for granted more than anything else, so any
anything that Ukraine's or recognise as a story will definitely be manifesting patterns that you can recognise, and so they can't just be brushed aside.
From this from the inmost insane conspiracy theory to them,
You know like childish, fairytale anything that manifests itself as a.
Pattern of story that you can recognise his has us
certain level of value, has us
a level that, if you pay attention to it, you actually taken
gathered some some some nuggets over of how the
What works and how the world leads itself out
that's? Why like, if I finally symbolic interpretations that can do it for scripture, but I can also do it for some more.
A movie or some video game or whenever it is. That's just, though,
were you to even recognize something as having being its already part of that world is already manifesting. These patterns, this critic,
said that the mere psychological nation of Christ.
Was insufficient because an you may
the same case in some sense that it
Makes sense unless the narrative and the object of world truly touch, and I think you could debate that, because I think that there is some
felicity there could argue, and bees be some utility in a secular version of the hero myths. You know that the best way to cope with existence is too for today.
The truth interface, what you dont know forthrightly and that will enable you to
orient yourself within our fine,
and bounded existence that ends with our death more properly more accurate
we more advisedly than any other route.
I've seen people from orthodox priests too.
The more the most protestant Protestant you can imagine recognise in the way that you represent reality, something that has value something that has value
because you are. You are manifesting that that patent, like what you're saying is, is true, but I think that I think that if we, if we, if we take seriously this the problem
friendship between attention, psyche and the way the world reveals itself to us, then it scaled up its scales up after that it is a jumps up, a level
and it also scales up in terms of because one
the things that one of the things that they did. You talk about like looking up to the star and and looking up to the high thing you can look at and then aiming towards that you know
once again, one of the things that does frigate is that the fee
thing you do is actually were it's a for its attention to people like the word worship, it's a form of reverence for veneration. You submit yourself today
this is not just that you see the aim and that you aim for you actually
have to submit yourself to that which is to what your Amy and so that give rise to it exactly any had to sacrifice to one's own,
that's why that's the religious version of this
the move towards the highest possible aim,
I'm one that we can do together because, like the law
aims like you could call something like lower gods. They are
jewels or whatever you want to call them like these
were aims there,
value, but their old, fragmented. But if
for this to stack up, we need to be able to look towards the same image. We need to look
towards the same aim, and that will bind us together, and so we don't we dont all, then we don't also end up being just kind of individuals who have the
of the world on our shoulders, but we're communion of Saint were communion of people who are submitted to aiming towards.
Worshipping the same point:
yeah and I believe that that's necessary and I've I've had some profound.
Variances, which I can't really relate here, that of of
necessity for that community. Is that this, whatever our
fundamental moral load is immense.
Though it is crushing, though it
is even requires.
Participation of others. So, even if you were the perfect you, you would need other people
two to be along with you. It's a collective enterprise, even though its and individualistic, even though it requires the perfection it requires as
perfection, as is possible at the individual level. That's not.
Ass there has to be that communal elements as well. You need help we
need help to aim as heart to heart,
steam requires communal endeavour and its also, because it actually
is the way that everything works. You know it's like the chair. Amy
be a chair is it is. It constitutes the above parts which are joined together towards
ass, a same goal and therefore hold together as a being
first the tyranny of the chair and
that's the same with you. You have all these thoughts. Radio bodies feelings all these. These contradict
things inside you and you need
aiming towards. You know that I may I believed that the image of Christ Liddy by aiming towards the image of Christ,
You constitute your being into that. Being that able to
ten to sacrifice to love and then
scales up with people agree either you are aiming, and this is another something else I tried to point out to SAM. You worry.
Your aiming you're, either aiming at Christ or something lesser or if things go
really out of hand, your aiming at something opposite wit- and you don't want to be doing now, but-
and this is a matter of definition in some sense and in its actually not impossible to understand is that you aim at
thing better. Generally speaking,
I mean maybe you're out to cause pain, but forget about that. You,
but something better. You wouldn't
do it unless it was better. In fact, it did version
defines better like the whole idea of better is
Located on the idea that there is an aim that beyond you and then the highest of those aims is the amalgamate the highest aim is the Imelda may amalgamation of all higher aims and that's a perfect mode of being an and that by
no that's a psychological perspective again that by definition is Christ and then but then there's
to be something too convenient about CS, Louis's insistence that
that also had to manifest.
Itself, concretely
in reality. At one point it
History and are not. I.
I don't understand why. I should believe that, and I do
ten, not to believe things without a. Why there's always a why and
and there's there's a hurdle there that I know that
well that I waver on constantly because I already said that year
you think these things through at least my experience has been
if you think them through sufficiently you end up with the choice,
when impossible alternatives and soda. But it has to do one of
ways to see it may be is. Is it
to do with the recognising of the goodness of the world are the goodness of creation that that the world is capable
of manifesting these patterns right
If you want to understand, for example, the big conflict between the early gnostics and the Christians, that's what it was all about
six basically wanted a decent chlorinated Christ. They were saying you know
day a view the world as utterly fallen as having no value having too,
escaped having to be fled in every way, whereas
Christianity, posits that
it's a non dual, it's an annual proposition, it saying it's, it all comes together. That's that's the promise. It all comes together,
so it has to come down right, and so it has.
Come down at every level and
Not only that is out to come down into the person of prices in current aid, but that person has to cook
and down into death to the very bottom,
of the world. You know tat the belly,
the leviathan and then come back up.
And so the whole world is declared
has once again declared as being capable of participating in this good
so until you could say will maybe maybe wasn't that one, maybe wouldn't you know like. Why would it be that particular particular place where,
They might have less and less.
The story. I mean that's where that that there is no other,
story like that story that we have and Enzo
once you recognise that this is part of the declaration that the world does embody. These patterns
it leads to this leads to that. That did this
story of a man who embody them absolutely
and is bringing us in him to also
embody them in a way that will transform us. You know like that that the ultimate goal of orthodox vision of Christianity is is the office is to be come. God to become
through to transformation and participation in guy. That's. The final goal of everything is to become a participant in the divine and how do you? How do you distinguish them from catholicity?
night burning in terms of that, I think that is a difference of emphasis. I think for sure you orthodox emphasised the closest more than the than the Catholic. The Catholics are kind of. If you about
this in terms of its there and some of the thinkers, but it, I would say, probably not official catholic doctrine, but I think without Theo, says you're missing. The point of the whole thing are: you are missing. The
and of of everything like way. Why do things exist right like why do things exist? And so I think that the idea that they exist to participate fully in their most perfect form, like that's what they're called it too
departed to do you know, and it ends up being a declaration of the ultimate possibility for goodness and world. I think that that's why it.
It seems it seemed to me I have observed, let's say that it's possible to.
It isn't obvious to me that anyone wants to leave a live, a meaningless existence. I dont think
you can live a meaningless existence without becoming corrupted, because the pain of
systems, will corrupt you without us,
saving, meaning, and
It also seems to me that
You can sell the story that meaning is to be found in responsibility when I've tried to
all that story to myself. I seem to buy it and when I have tried to communicate it with other people
renders them silent large crowds of people silent and that's strange, because
I'm not sure why that is. It is perhaps because the connection
When responsibility meaning had never been made for in that,
explicitly somehow because meaning it
terminated with happiness or something like that, but is to be found.
And responsibility, and then you can say what there isn't anything any response.
Really that's more compelling than trying
you, ain't things in the manifestation of their divine form,
there should be an adventure that could be sold, and I dont know why the church can't do it.
I dont understand that and.
Because it seems to me that that something that I've done
at least in part not accounts for the strange popularity of the biblical lectures in particular and.
But I've also- and I do believe that I do believe that the right
driving is to attain
with all your heart to encourage
things to develop along that towards that divine
like what else would you possibly do when you think that
oh it's like
We are always aiming at something. That's better or you wouldn't be aiming Euro is moving towards something. That's better. You wouldn't be moving. So then, why? Wouldn't you move towards the greatest good their lot?
Because it's terrifying, I suppose in part,
but then I say you know, I've tried to put that into practice in my life and.
Its tearing me into pieces.
No, no though, if, if one of them,
reasons. It is because you are also alone, and I because
you, I mean Elisa to my understanding, you're, not in enacting a community.
Well it's hard to say I mean it
hard to say.
His fans are certainly less well they
mean community, I mean one of the things that has held me together. Certainly is the commitment that I feel too, to the people who have been so
positive towards me and my family. I do feel it
as a community, I understand what you mean, why the hell not go to church
now. I know you wasn't gonna come right out and say enjoyed by now
you're, not that blunt about it,
I suggest that you know it's not just about going to church. I went on my. I told you something and- and I don't know.
If I could try, if a little to drive it through their there's something about being a hierarchy. That is that the biggest
as an aspect of being an. I argue that you talk about, which is this kind of striving to to
to be the best within that hierarchy, but there's an ass
to being in a hierarchy which is that the hierarchy covers you will definitely. There is no doubt about that.
So there's something about. Sadly, why the lowest men, men that the lowest
This members of a chip group will still fight off interlopers yeah, and so there is theirs
value in being in a community Anna and a higher
Where you like, I got a confession. I go to confession, I go to my priests and I confess my sins and and I give that to him- he actually takes responsibility for
for an aspect of listening to my sins and and gonna party
Debating in my salvation and he and so the weight and are being distributed across the community
it's not so you don't actually just bear it on your on yourself.
When it's not just even any, it's not just the living community, its it it's not,
oh, that are alive in the their entirety, but those that are that have left their story. All the saints are part of this hierarchy that you
gauge energy participating in that you see as
consolation as examples. As you know, as examples of people who have lived through difficult thing that you can kind of, then you can shoulder up again.
As you know, has. Oh that's one of the reasons why I kind of insufficiently food people to watch. My videos is. Is it when I
Go to church, it's not just because I to demoralising
doing some thing: it's because it's it's actually a participation in how the best vision of reality works.
I've got no objection to any of that.
But I mean you- I will bring you object. I probably one of the only people in the world that has actually seen you in charge and seen you
yeah. How does go worm urban Church Y see the other day?
I was reading again. I was reading this book in its bid, mostly a jumping off place for me to think so.
There is also something big,
I'm not inside the church. So to speak. It's hard to say
what the utility of that is, the euro.
Eddie of being inside the church-
being outside it I'll beings, because an outsider talking about religious matters, but I think that I think that I think that it has played a great role like I've often said something that
I have often said: did you something like King Cyrus? He noticed
We have King Cyrus in scripture kings
I was persian king- who told
the Jews to go back to Israel and build a temple, so he was in jewish.
He was. He was an Israelite, you wouldn't believe in the God of the Israelites, but he was,
Ok, you know that temple of yours looks pretty nice. Why don't you just go back there in and we
build your own own thing, and so that's death
in effect that I've seen you have. You know the number of people that have become.
Christian because of you is Larry, is
it's that elected its this kind of it
this guy. This strange think of you, you, you kindness
and outside, and you look at you you're, looking at the door and looking at the church and you saying hey, this is not so bad. You know look at this.
What is going on here like what is this about and and then
because of their how they tell us who do you think you ve got something better.
I was talking to a friend of mine, the other day when we were walking
because, as I said, I walk about ten miles a day. Right now try to keep myself,
under control, and you know he
raised a communist in Poland and is and then an atheist, and he was coming,
I think I think this is what he told me that
complaining to his parents at one point about a religious wedding that they were going to, despite not believing
then he said ass. He got older. He realized he had nothing to replace that with so
Ok, throw it out fine,
Ok. Now, where are you well you'd, just as bad off as you
before, but you also don't have that beautiful thing. What what
but if we dispensed with Christmas
which largely did good. They were waiting to hear us in their new atheists slights. Let's get rid of Christmas, we or we could say
we could make it entirely secular, but then it would just disappear, but you
That's what's gonna happen, because religion is inevitable and worse,
it? Coming back and very strange ways, it's gonna, be
Weird woke
to tear in religion, which is which is going to come back. That's why limit? As you know, we did part as part of its going to try lands doesn't matter. We can you
leave that gas or is it
just scary thing like that's what you could say that that's one of the failures of the new aid us is that they lead to, though, would they partly led to the new woke phenomena, because they they didn't realize that you can't get rid of
religion, you can't get rid of rituals. You can't get rid of the problems and opportune.
Means of identity. All of these things are going to come back. He tried to just. If you tried
rush them aside and they're gonna come back in view
weird ways and without you realizing what's going on
people kneeling to a shrine of a man who was killed by
policing,
putting a halo on his head and no and himself more
find themselves in doing all kinds of insane things. Are that look to you insane, but that you need
understand it's just it's just this religious impulse gone gone off the rails, so
Yes and then the question is what the right place for it. Try you know I've I've, I've thought in my. I suppose it's a form of comedy that
Catholicism is saying, is people get you know it's baroque right in and an gotta go much gothic, not baroque its gothic. It's dark! It's it's! It's it! It has this
as I said it in some senses, a horror, film and
being I'm not being I'm not saying something denigrating by that I mean it's part of it,
Strange mystery and all
strangeness is necessary, because people would be much more insane without it than they are with it
so container for that religious impulse that impulses to the to the good, ended and and the image of the of the crucified.
Ice, and also the act of communion gathers in all the extremes together right is complete. You think of the symbolism,
Communion you'll notice that it gathers in every extreme from the highest to the most Transgresseth, all of it
Together towards unpacking that its merits
cannibalism in the service of God.
Anybody it's also it's also seen as a
as a normal, like meal of communion and its and also seen as a US as
sexual union, because you there
a relationship there's a notion in which then in the
all, and in that moment of communion, there's the joining of heaven and earth to know the rays of the chalice and there's this
joining which is which is this image of this sector
a union between God and the sole between God in his church, and so all of it is
jammed into this into into this ritual as it.
In the center of reality would call it, and so, like you said,
you, get rid of that then you're going to have all kinds of strange fact, versions of it that are going to pop up and I'm going to try to replace it, and it's
leading to the fragmentation of our world and to the breakdown of the west for sure. So.
Back to this idea of the d the the
the logical level and historical level can joining. I thought of that is convenient. They know it's that that's
stumbling point for me in relationship to the core
Jeanne story. It's you say.
It has to be like this. If the world is constituted in a good manner,
there has to be made. Is that
so about how much of this sort out its duties. Let me say one just. Let me say this one thing, because I've been struggling towards that this whole. It's an active phase
and so let's say that your face is that you decide to make
the notion that reality is good,
the cornerstone of your face. It's something that you that you
that you believe, or is it something that you courageously assume and is there a dick?
Between that belief, and if
Courageously assumed that the world is
that reality is good. Then the touch
of the narrative and the objective in this manner, that's demonstrated
Christ I becomes necessary. Is that the idea, so I to me
it's funny, I don't see it as an act of faith in the way that we think of an act of faith like this jump of faith.
Or whenever I see it as an act of trust faith as trust you would say, that's fine. That would be a courageous assumption that if it tries to an end
trust in the sense. Also of so when we talk about
the good we always have to be careful not to just limited to the good to the moral there. There is the moral good, but when we talk about the good we're talking about the good enough in a much larger way,
The good news is that the is the pattern of of the things right and in this sense it
does the fact that the world lays itself out as ordered as pattern? Inevitably
that there is no way around. You cannot avoid the order of the world, because, because the nordic view to even proceed anything, it has to have an idea.
It has to have. A hierarchy has to have a more
and half of all these things. It's all there in every ivory, active perception,
exactly a reactor perception, and so it's
Reactive perception presumes a value hierarchy exactly you can avoid it.
So it's not so it's not like an act of faith in the sense that I I I you know, I at the outset think the world these nihilistic and and and and and chaotic like. No, I don't. I think, that on the card,
Harry. I think that you could say it in a religious way that the love of God holds the world together.
And its inevitable, that things are held together by these by these, these patterns of being that are always aiming
the good, even in the very identity of whatever it is that yours, you're encountering.
Let me ask you something personal then mean you you,
were born and orthodox Christian. This is something you,
came to how.
Well. I think that it has something to do with what you said before
does has something to do with the sense that Christianity had fallen away from its original story and it's a ridge
no all encompassing lit a cosmic narrative
so it was really. I would say, in searching for that and kind of discovering symbolic thinking on other fronts and
feeling like. I was confronted by this like ok,
I can see these patterns. I can see the world through these through through this coherence and
Why is it then that the crucial
It doesn't have this,
and then then, after more looking and more searching, I realised that he did. They not only did, but that some of the earliest more some of the most in a powerful early saints talked about the world. Exactly this way you know.
An answer. When I discovered that then I
around, and I saw, for example, that iconography that the relationship
between icons and architecture and liturgy. And and all
this was like this amazing giant pattern, which was real
missing manifesting. Making you participate in
way the world actually existed, and so it was like this kind of self business. This positive feedback loop. I guess you put it in a good way, whereas, like you, you,
do you recognize these? Aren't you engage in them? You see them. You you sing.
Damn you take this whole thing where you engaged in
so I realized tat. It was really in the Orthodox church it. This was the most that had been the most
and the most alive, and that I would hear you know contemporary orthodox speakers or thinkers or theologians who talked about the world exactly in that way, and so I thought okay, so this is
Place and also because they kept the idea of the office as the ultimate goal, because I think that that
You know very very early say to your name, which is gonna like early third century, said the logos b
a man so that man would become God, it's
the earth, some of the earlier Saint said that unites. Oh, it's like that's really were Christianity is, and so that's what that would ultimately lead me.
I too were to light, is the greatest of all possible visions until I, but I think that you know it
Think that it's their later and even in and in other forms of christianity and night.
Other things that I've been trying to do is how people kind of wake up to that reality
and try to see it wherever they are going. For you know, I'm dear really serious, I have to talk to you for a long time. I mean you ve got this meaning
had a strange few years,
as I had a strange for use as well. It's all your fault by the way here,
He certainly feels that way, but it's it's a good. It's a good. In that sense, I mean I've
in surprise. In the past four years since I met you and you're gonna put me on
there in the world. You know
Now I would like ninety thousand people following me on Youtube and theirs
community of that
it's a symbolic thinkers, I'm giving them
these two too, to write that down my on my website, I'm putting up a blog theirs
it is that kind of get together. Talk about about this, trying to re
degraded in their own communities, whether that wherever they come from and
I've been just nonstop excited about.
I mean in a way sad to see that I think the breakdown of Christianity is is going to continue
I I'm not. I don't have short term hope, for that say the situation, but I do believe that they are that there are seeds which are a kind of being planted
and there are people who are getting ready in agenda and will bear fruit. So so it's been just it's been amazing. I have to say- and thanks for that, by the way I hope
is you welcome to the degree that I had something to do with it.
Did you want? I know one on twitter, you you asked about the virgin birth. I don't know if you, if you still have Judas issues of energy, to talk about that or if
sure why not what the one of them
things. It is important, I would say
Christianity is understanding that
the role that Mary has to play, Liddy in the same.
In the same.
In the same way that we talk about how the reality of Christ came letter had to manifest itself in the world.
For us to understand that the possibility of this thing
The possibility of how everything comes together right
In the same way sewing, for example, in the old testament, you have the often Egypt places where God and humanity meat. So on the Mountain of Moses in the town,
bull in the garden of Eden as well. So you have these in the usual
the top of the mountain or there at the end of a temple case. What's that
mounted in that's into that's a place where two worlds made: that's the narrative world and the objective world really exactly so there
though, the invisible world, the visible world, the world of of of logos, the where the pattern
and then the world of possibility right. They come together and then that's when the coming together. That point is where you see something
So it's like that for for everything, that's it remains zocor, but that's it yet.
Miracles- are like super events like the they. They show us
in reality, in a more and more concise way, but
thing is like that right. So even a chair is a bunch of possibilities.
Encounter than idea can encounter the purpose logos. And then, then you have it,
you can't have just a bunch of stuff
we'll have a chair. You need that to meet so at the center
every thing, I'm every
that exist. There is a little temple
a temple there's a little inclination right, a little like a mini one, you desire and one I don't want it didn't seem heretical,
Thing, but there's this little like many thing that happens, and so that aspect has passed a lower part, which is that the nexus of possibilities, the coming together possibilities, and then this thing that this logos, which comes down so this next,
two possibilities? You could call it a mountain House Temple a body, that's Mary right! That's that's her that she's the place of manifestation so she's, the
Arc of the covenant she's, the temple she's, the mountain she's. All of that, and so.
And then in, and then we play that role. You could say the church, the body of cries. We play that role, we come together in love and then the divine,
Those descends and manifest to unite the body right together and to
feel himself in that unity of the body. So we see Christ in the unity of love.
The crisis. They will know you by how you love each other, because
how'd. You know that a body exists is that its coherent did hold together as a body and hope.
This body has to be dedicated, has to be
located to the thing which is manifesting so like, let's say
let's say you have a turkey, you know
a car and two bits of
ass and you think, I'm going
make a chair out of that work. It's not gonna happen
right. If I didn't think you were going to go that route, would that's what this is it? This is what it's about. It's not gonna happen
that's not dedicated, and
in the same way about over a woman and her husband, so woman has to be dedicated to her husband for the union to be recognised,
and fruitful. So if a woman is is not is not fatal to her husband than theirs
confusion on the identity of the child, but if a woman is dedicated to hug,
which means that she is actually a virgin to all other other identities,
she's virginal to all other identities and she's dedicated only to the one thing, so this idea
virginity is super important because it's about dedication, its
not being mixed or not sunshine and contamination on contamination, and so
you can understand that in order for some
then to manifest the entirety of the whole matter right. So it's like talk so forth
or for someone to be the place of manifestation. For that
thing modernize, wonder mother does like
rights, what a mother does, because she dedicates herself grit
to a greater or lesser degree to bringing someone perfect into being and the more she loves the more she dedicates herself to that in every possible way.
So now the virgin Mary is the extreme cosmic version of that where she has to be perpetual virgin.
She's, a cosmic virgin, she is perpetually virgin virginal because she's, like you, can imagine like in order for the sun, to reflect.
Upon the waters it nor those men who don't believe that sort of thing should take careful stock of the fact that their frequently terrified out of their skull whenever they encounter someone there attracted to the project that or
see it instantly in it, and it did, did it demolishes them and then, if their rejected their crushed.
And you can think about that as a projection, but you can also think of it as seeing more deeply. What's there
and that you only see that when you're actually attracted to someone and then
traction as a basis, because you seeing what they could be, even if you not seeing what's there and so that
That's why the news
city a virgin birth, because she she
is revealing the highest right, she's like eating
like a still ocean, which is
which the sun is reflecting and if it was meeting
did any would only reflect the mid
aided manner and then everything
between mitigated, like, I said, a woman whose
your husband, obviously not a virgin and technical sense? You could say she's she's, a virginal to others, she's untouched by others, but
dedicated to the one man just like
well, do you know the degree to which that entangled with genuine virginity off also isn't there
also isn't so obvious, you know it isn't we don't know
the preconditions are four for setting.
Up the ideal relationship and it certainly the cat
that we bring the baggage of our previous relationships into our current relationship and maybe sometimes that's for the better, and maybe the virginity can be symbolic, but people
certainly be sullied by their past behaviour and sometimes in a way that they can't figure out how to how to how do repair yeah
for sure the accretion ideal has always been that the Red their union a virgins in this
that then the dedication and being tighter writer
Oh, you are dedicated to your husband and your husband is dedicated to you
and then your unmitigated mentally, even right,
in terms of memories and in terms of comparing and in terms of all of these things, which we do as
beings, and so it it it can prevent slippage in terms of your dedication.
So I do know that makes sense in terms of years and all anyone I wasn't mean
You know these things grasping these things slips out in and out of my capacity, and I mean I I you did a lovely job thereof of
making a symbolic account further Virginia.
Of Mary, I understand out on understand weld, but no one's going to prove the rigidity of Mary. Historically I mean that that that's not that.
Something which is not that ours is not possible to secret there's a secret aspect to rigidity which is actually part of its function and is also part of its
How can I say this is part of its of its mystery right, which is something which is which is not public. You know it's it's it's we belong,
to the identity belongs to know it's like that,
the dedication of something belong to that which is dedicated rang out. To some degree I mean I.
Imagine that you wanted to form the perfect union with someone felicity?
perfect sexual union for that matter. I think that requires love whenever I've had it. In my
if a sexual experience that wasn't associated with love it, I didn't feel right about it, my conscience,
bothered me very much very rapidly, and maybe that makes me and outlier
although I don't think so. I think I think that that is how people react
they refused to notice now
might be wrong about that. Maybe I'm a prude, it's possible otherwise,
think so, but it's possible, but it always struck me that sex was Bess.
Undertaken within the confines of a committed, oven.
Emily committed relationship
whereas it was lesser, it was the lesser it was less
Then it should be made was sullied and now
Well, I don't have anything more to say about that than that. That's been my experience in Seoul and I
No, what the preconditions are for establishing the perfect marriage, let's say, and the perfect marriage would be one that brought about the
ass possible children. These are not true.
Real things. There very difficult things to get right
Certainly you want the least amount of animosity.
Unnecessary animosity possible between the parents, you want the union to be tight, you want it to be based on
of a commitment that
seems clear even from the psychological literature
So I have another question for an government
this idea of Theodosius, I think its lack of iron?
I'm tormented by the possibility that its lack of courage that stops people from.
From bringing into being that union, with God using.
You think that possibility that possibility there sits there in front of all of us and
it was actually realized once in history it. I would say that at least
and in the tradition of the church, it was perfectly manifested in Christ, but there of they are other signs that have reached the and that that would work
all called too that we are called to to become one with God to the extent that that's the debts
people. Then I guess we're stuck with the old problem, which is, if that's the case, than what we
Does the world seem so
redeemed yeah. Well, because where did where distracted
you know with reason where we
tend to attend to the lower things you know we we get distracted by are.
Our emotions. We get distracted by all these things around us that are trying to get.
Our attention and then we aim towards these smaller things,
No, we we aim towards.
It is right, we aim towards making money, we aim towards getting desert having some procedure and these because the problem is that these things all give us as us
all sense of satisfaction and so
day there like little idols? I guess you could call them.
Until we just aim towards these. These lower things and and
one of the reasons why we struggle to see this higher ideal. You know.
And when one of the reasons why I guess with one of the reasons for church as well, is that in a it's kind of
forces you, even if your distracted it whenever to come together at least once a week or whatever
stand years together in two years as well, and to grant a constant. I knew I understand that there are no. You know. I remember.
The cynicism that was
in the air, I suppose, when the Christine
many of my youth started to decompose when people started to not
ten church in droves. The cynical
Justification in part was well. Those are one hour week,
Djinns. How but critical, can you get to.
Claim allegiance to this high ideal and then to go back and live beer tawdry life? How could it
when participated in anything like that and what we replaced it with is never doing it even for an hour a week which is
quite a lot of time compared to none. So
replacement, is not being an improvement by any stretch of the imagination candle and then we.
We replace it because we need to come together and we need to community who need to celebrate, and so we end up doing it in India
he's kind of secondary places like sports or politics
and all these other places? The wool would will replace that better
ultimately like I said one of the things that help us to trust, lady or or
find some respite,
and we do it together like we're doing this together, and so the
When you see there, sir,
Comfort in knowing that that some people have dedicated their life to God and have lived there,
way, and it serves as a smaller example, but also as a as a comfort in those
we usually and the stories of the saint you'll find time
they are struggling when they're there completely off the rails. When they're, not you know when they are struggling with thoughts with.
Ashen with desires about you see that in the old testament stories, Amene Abraham is all of the other.
Patriarchs that mean they lived
full lives complete with cattle
traffic failure in and malevolence and murder and genocide and war and begin and end yet were redeemed, and so I think that that one of the things that helps us too to that.
He said to too to see: it's like you, you don't need not have to oversee. You, don't look at the person who goes to charge winter once a year whenever that person has their own thing to deal with you, you, you, you find
and you see these these people that are the opposite- that really live in an era.
But he has met, I would they probably a few people I gotta these. I met a few that are just. I met some priests monk pre set our glowing like they're, just glow
we and there and you see it in their eyes that they live at a level of of peace and acceptance that
I don't have access to, and so it's like that type of encounter
is also part of you transformation because it gives you it tells you
like oh yeah, I see it in your eyes. I can see that that that this exists in all its not just something we talk about. I want. I want to talk a little bit about Heaven, so I dont mad Ridley, while back and before Long Bergen, I'm interested in their thinking because they're trying to play
optimistic course for the future, one where at the highest levels of social integration-
and we decide
how human society should look at least
in so far as we conceptualizing
might look if we addressed some of them.
The problems that beset us, but it's an attempt in its an attempt to
Make things better. It's an attempt to bring about something. Increasing
They resembling Heaven on earth mean Heaven is
Generally conceptualize, you can
Epps lies. It is a state of being it might be the state of being that those people that you describe live in
paradise experiences it where everything
and formed itself into something that was perfected. It appeared perfect and I was
able to stay in those frames of mind them the Heaven
is that something we build is that something I dont understand the relationship between the Heaven that away.
This let's say after we die. That's that
idea and what we build here on earth did. Those touch is that the door is that two doctrine to so much of this
auction. I dont understand better. I think I think away
to see it has to do with with attention again, and
has to do with a hierarchy of attention in future
to build, Heaven
going to fail Unifil,
miserably, because you
because you're not aiming high enough read your ear aiming and
you you get stuck in this in these weird world of opposite that you don't even understand the side effects of what you're doing
and so for one person. Having will look like if everything could be perfectly ordered, then right and then you know what that looks like
another prison, look in Heaven and think if everything could be free,
just be free and then that
note that looks like, and so the idea
to look hire. You know, there's a
there's a there's, a story that what we have to strive for something better. But then we end up in which uses. What you are saying is that we end up with the tower of Babel, or we end up with the flood. There we end up with with the catastrophe,
continual catastrophe bond in intended consequences. But, as you yourself said, we are aiming for something better. Is so the question
how do you pursue pursue utopia while avoiding the pitfalls? In that
see a logical question I would yet is. I think it. I know. That's a people gonna hate that I say this, but it it's has to do with worship. It still has to do with what
where'd you. So if you worship, if you worship those things in your aiming towards the lower things, he worship the them
king, a safer society. Few worshiped, making a freer society,
worship making a stronger society. All of these things are going to go off the rails, because
they. They have unintended consequences.
You don't understand, because they're there are fragment of reality. They need to be encompassed together in order to reach something higher
It's not a danger of ideology. It's the part takes the play,
of the whole, yet they're down there
ideas that if you asked, if you worship God, then
Those other things will work
laid themselves out slowly and you won't be able to force them they'll, but kind of lay them so
shout slowly and they'll start to manifest. You know progressively in and and as you, but you have to attend to the highest, or else like I said you know it
there's that there is even like there's an image of Anti Christ which is related to this problem in a in scripture. He could one of the first Anti Christ, you could say, was Jude
who betrayed Christ, but there's a story with Judas which is very fascinating because crisis and talk to Judas very often when one of place where Chrysostom Judas
when a woman comes in and
wants to anoint and wash crates feet with a very expensive perfume.
And Judith says what what do we do?
like. Why are you doing this? You need it? Why don't we give this to the poor and cry says you know: do poor will always be with you, but the bridegroom Christ. The Messiah, therefore,
a short time ago, the idea that kind of story is very difficult to understand how anyone could have invented that story, like that's, not the story of propagandists. No
in fact. It's the opposite, but that's it.
It has to do with attention.
It's obvious ease in saying age and help the poorer crisis set out the Borys added many that you have to help the poor give to the poor, of course, but here,
saying get your higher hierarchy in order and you'll help the poor
more effectively in any other. That's that's the case. Through studies likes, it starts with worship and the axis
she's doing if you look at which is doing she's. Furthermore, she bought something expensive
she sacrificing it she's she's
revising it choose to to bow down and to watch the fee to submit, to sacrifice to and to worship
those three things like when I talk about the aim, how you end up having to submit to that aim, and so this is what so crises saying. First comes
a ship Jan the world lays itself out below that dinner in an appropriate way
and those are our sermon amount says too, and those that are
for our saying, help the poor as their ultimate goal in the end
so the Judas then even want to help the poor. You wanted to take the money for himself really think he was a thief actually and he was taking the money, the purse and so
those they just want to
reed. While I support the truth of the matter, is that the
genuineness of your desire to help. The poor is precisely proportional to the degree that you embody Christ. The frame
can't be otherwise it cannot be. Otherwise. I see that I see that clearly
because otherwise things will go astray. So that's one of the poor,
Those with the modern projects of utopia is that their thereby ask in their attempts- and you can see like the type of gesture that the world,
authorities are posing in terms of, in terms of say,
the extreme like that you know with coal within everything this desire to create absolute safety, this desire to create absolute identification and
and tracing, and all of these weird
this kind of weird gestures that show that they think they can control reality is, is
its leading us towards a very dangerous place mobile?
the things I noticed did someone
gonna committee at one point that was advising the
when in relationship to the establishment of its millennium goals- and there are hundreds of goals- never not rank, ordered
who was tower of Babel, because the UK
have hundreds of goals that aren't rank, ordered and have any goals at all, because the goal
to have a goal means a hierarchy,
Thing has to be more important than something else and the
isn't anything more important than getting your act together. So to speak, be no ended,
I'm going to have to think about all this. A lot.
But there is the question that keeps lurking in in the back of my mind, which is: does the
did that's how it should be mean that that's the way that it is in that
trust, that's a question of trust guides it. It is a question of trust with the which ends up manifesting itself in love,
and I think that that can the love that you have for the world, which is which is which is clear.
Anyway. It shows me that you might be closer to that too, that trust in them.
You might want to admit to yourself, maybe
don't know what to do with it. I suppose is the real problem, especially in my current circumstances. Death. I'm! I'm,
The most confused person I've ever met, I would say- and I've met some pretty confused people so.
Well, thank you. That was really something yeah you know it's a
I really enjoyed a talk to join and do you know I, like I said there are
thousands of people who are praying for you and and
keeping me alive.
And your story isn't isn't
your story is an over. Yet you know so much them pity for me. Well, you know,
I really I can do is really pray that you that you gotta do. I don't know how to how to form
they did, but I hope that you that you did you encounter
a moment of grace and that you can also find find a body to join with.
And I always hear you know like I: we haven't talked in a few years butter. Obviously
you're worried. I can stand talking to you
what you're more of Europe definitely out
a part of my life. You know, even if, if it's too weird Youtube videos, everything no end
The people remind me that you're part of my life,
All the time, because a lot of people there
watch videos in a day. You know they they come. They come from you,
they're. Always they always start with was watching drug dealers and videos, and so so Europe
gateway to to hear your again.
The way to what I'm talking about you know. So I know that's a good
Gateway, thank you for the carving spirit
I am happy to note it. Is there that it's in your house, and at Saint Michael, is, is at least holding back
gonna be a little bit. We hope tat good talking to you as you talking join
anytime.
Transcript generated on 2021-07-02.