Welcome to the Jordan, be Petersen Podcast. My name is Michaela, this apathy future. Jonathan Patio and Jordan Petersen discussing the issue of conscience. Narrative objective reality, the perfect of being the response. We need to move things towards the divine. The credibility of religion, the significant so the virgin birth, the idea of Heaven and much much more. It was recorded in February fourteen twenty twenty one June. In parallel, as a symbolic thinker, Youtube her and class carver of orthodox icons. He makes them. Amazing icon, carvings big news, dad book is coming out Tuesday Marge second, beyond order available at his website adorned me Petersen, dot com, Amazon wherever you buy books, and he has posters for sale, absolutely incredible illustrations. I it from the book I like them, than the last book check them but mainly the buck available Tuesday or for pre order now add Jordan be Petersen. Dotcom enjoy this episode,

so, if you want to know about Tammy Petersen, my mother My dad's wife, I released upon gas with her on my ipod, cast the videos on Youtube Mc Killop, Pieterzen videos. If you aren't we my mom this episode I shook my head space. Wouldn't it be great if there pocket sized guide that helped you sleep Focus ACT be better. There is, and if you Ten minutes had space and change your life. This is what they suggest I read. Perhaps these adds work on some people, but they certainly wouldn't work on me. I do believe that meditation can drastically improve your life. That's what had space house with him. Definitely have ten minutes in your day, you can put aside to meditate and are really does help has been scientifically shown to reduce stress, improves, sleep, boost, focus and increase your overall sense of well being its. Silly kind of by focusing on your breathing doing some visualization helped by annex, I too, australian voice, if you so choose, had space records. And voices, I really improve your day. I do at first thing in the morning you deserve,

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a three month of unlimited access, just visit, our special url degree courses, plastic Slash Peterson, it's a whole month to learn anything you want for free, so sign up now the great courses play dot com. Slash Petersen, if you enjoy this episode, remember to rate and subscribe. So too I have the great pleasure of speaking with Jonathan Patio. Whom I know primarily as a thinker carver orthodox icons that are absolutely beauty. I have one in my house of Saint Michael and the dragon and an increasingly Prominent you prominent among intellectual

you tubers. I would say essentially, as It can only those who are interested in religious and philosophical and artistic ideas and Jonathan. I have been talking back and forth, for I would think about. Sixty seven years now way men and twenty fifteen at that time? It's crazy time flies. It's crazy. For sure so why are we haven't spoken fur two years. Maybe are, we saw each other. I think when you put came out- and you came to monterrey- offer a little event and I picked up at the airport now as the last time we saw each other yeah a lot of water under the bridge. That's right! Indeed, and in your case literally yes, actually in whom Jonathan Joe This house was flooded out. That was win It was in twenty nineteen, but we back into our house this Christmas, and so it was a long kind of along thing. It lasted a very long time and are you in your house right now? Yes,.

I'm in my my house all fixed up, and so were we enjoying it were happy to be back, I bet it must an unbelievably dislocated to be flooded like that, do your homework and filled with water. If I remember correctly, the exact It was a dyke broke in the industry. And you know I think, as thousands of people going evacuated within an hour or two my kids is actually was my kids and even my wife. It was a little bit of a trauma because it was wrong could see the water coming and there were cops in and in all these fire men in everything, and so it was a pretty intense moment. Yeah and work where, where were you living when your house was underwater, moved around. We lived in my parents than we rented a place and we had to move, and so we ended up living in three places during their about a year and a half that we were gone so that it was a it was one of those things where you know we say: symbolism happens. You know a lot of it. That even you talk about it, I talk about just manifested themselves. This problem,

of the dialogue, and the idea of you know corruption or inattention to situation and then thinking yours when in fact, they were not aware of wits with kind of looming on the margins and and so for me, was a real learning experience. I hope that I have come out of it. Stronger and more more attentive, let's say, yeah I hope so too. I mean we all hoped that we come out of unpleasant exe France is stronger than when we went in, although it isn't always the case. It's the case when your functioning optimally and when you're, fortunate and courageous- and I suppose, as just as you can be, but fortunate definitely ranks high among all of those. Necessary precondition for successful recovery. I would say- and I have to that I am sweetheart. I am so grateful to see you online. We know now. I know you ve heard this, but there have been thousands of people. Thinking about you, praying for you and really Rep

bidding for you and you I actually saw Tammy last year, I when I went to bring your icon and- and I just remember. Just feeling helpless and- and you know she was like- we would- you go to Russia gathered her hushed up a curtsey to open in Russia. It didn't see like it was a reasonable thing to do in and is probably better than happened, but we have definitely been praying for you in writing for you and think about your Jordan New. I appreciate that a lot, and I'm back. To some degree, I would say I still think I'm running it about five percent. So beyond that's partly why I was concerned about can do today, and we are generally Gus things that are relatively deepened, it's still difficult for me to go deeply into anything, that's happening to me because it so unbelievably awful and its it it's been hard on my face, I would say in and thence I buy me. A book is coming out of my new book. I should show I just

Yesterday, order. It's an it's unbelievable that Europe during all of this. I can't believe that when you say you're running at five percent, I think that your five percent is his pretty close to the hundred per and before people here. Well, without true or not, but it's five percent for me and getting the book Actually, somewhat of a traumatic experience, I would say, because it reminded me, like it said it's it's it's, concrete reminder of everything that happened over the last three or four years and it off that I found very difficult process, both the social front and honour. Let's biological with health front, so there was reading. Oddly enough, I book sent to me by Bishop Baron, the first draft of a book and it's written by a couple of professors.

Jordan Petersen, God and Christianity. The search for a meaningful life by Doktor Christopher sir, and Doktor Matthew pressure. Sick were Fire Institute to Catholic responds to biblical series, and hopefully they would be to upset about me talking about it today, but I won't talk a lot about much the book itself. It was rather a shock to me. There are loyal. A merry Mount University was kind of a shock. Me to see them talking about my I mean religious scholars talking about my biblical series. But I think people are just people a lot of people didn't understand, and I guess it in my react with the way people, rural reacting, t, biblical studies, the equivocal interpret, asian people didn't understand. How is it that he we can barely get on people in a church, and Jordan has a million people listening to him kind of struggle,

tat to get through these passages in and do it in a very improvisational kind of potential way and and to me it's funny, because I mean I think I have a group. I have deep affection for you're. The way that you crossing an eye and obviously we connect together in the way we think in so to me it was like is what you guys should have didn for a while is try to You stand how it is that this stuff is talking about reality and not just a bunch of arbitrary, things that you to believe that you need to kind of attend to and end. These stories, they really are telling us about the structure of being, and so I think that that's the way did you approached it and and that's why people are resonating to what you're saying as they like. Finally, someone can can can help us make many of these story that, whereas some how strangely attracted to or for us

by disgusted by or whatever it is, but there's this pushing pole with these stories, and so so I think that I've seen a lot Christians listen to your biblical thoughts in of course, and that you say things and they like ok, that's way off the rails and then other time Savings ended. They can believe the insight that you're able to to pierce, and so so. I I'm not at all surprised that Catholic Scholars with would kind of look at what you were doing and that we all hope that you're going to do more of that for sure yes. Well, I would like to I'm thinking about trying to attend the book on exodus and lecture to lectures is well, though I wouldn't say that I'm in any shape to do that, yet I'm, but it too ream. Let's say I mean I'm pretty much. Completely non functional for the first three or four hours of the day I get up and can barely stand up and go have a sauna for an hour and off to sleep during that period of time and then at the same time I could break

stop are used in agriculture, and then I go walk for anywhere between seven and ten miles and even though I can buy, Tom. I get out of the house, I'm dizziness can be, and I've difficult to stand up, but after about a mile or two, I get my eggs under me to some degree and then by two o clock. I kind of functional, although extremely anxious, and then I'm able to do a little bit of work and often too sit down at four o clock. My mind seems sharp enough. Although my memory isn't good. I can't bring things to mind like I used to go to school, distressing and I have very little emotional resilience and I'm worried That reason about the release of this book coming, I suggested at Times Interview London Times interview that was really there. Followed since that frustrating it's it's it's I mean it's funny because you know again, it was like the same stories are playing out again. This person goes after you and then it just turns

against that person and- and it's just she's exposed for fraud that she was being and during that interview, and so thinking the strange that it keeps happening over and over. I'm in a hurry, decided not to do mainstream interviews. Now for a good while because I've its to me that I've gone to the well of public sympathy so to speak enough times and that if this and to me two or three more times. Let's say people are going to rightly say how many times does it take for Petersen to learn? And so I dont want that to happen. I mean I've been, why seal and obligation to my publishers, obviously to talk about the book. Although that interview, virtually nothing to do with the book we hoped it would. I would fail to discuss my health issues with someone who would treat them squarely and then could ignore them from then on bottom. That isn't what happened?

but a spin is a sign of the politicized discourse. I give you its assent, of the breakdown that were going through, that we see this capacity to have so entrenched decide that people are Does it doesn't matter what they do? It doesn't matter what they say. They don't feel like their responsible, because in a way, you're the enemy and if, as you, its other other it's between different groups, but if you're the enemy, then everything is justified and Realising a huge part of this is is driven by the desire to have an enemy yeah renders it is very difficult to feel. It's an easy route to self righteousness to have an enemy exactly and it's a great place to put all evil and because you attract so much attention. Your easy, your death, an easy target, That's the theory seems not to turn that way

but it's also was the timing. You know the way when you kind of came up in the public, fear there was a massive shift happening in culture and I think that one of the things you could feel- and that was happening around us and to some extent in a dialogue, had something to do with that, is well in the sense that it this malaise that was there and this kind of his jostling in this this, and this is what led to all that kind of discourse, and so I think that you, were identified, you became identified almost physiologically. I guess, as as a character and an people you know have treat you that way and they, with you that way in many respects. Yesterday light comes very difficult to understand, I'm very difficult for me to understand what character I am you know, so much has changed in my life over the last

five years. I'm I've been on leave from the university, so that's very destabilizing. I dont have my clinic practice anymore, and so I was you know, seeing twenty people a week so that huge, try. Formation in my life, my my house is being completely renovated. It was renovated. Well, my wife was ill, and so we didn't while it renovation went on in our absence and so on the forerunner in my own house, which is which is, although I'm starting to be accustomed to. It knew some things I like about the new house, but I dont at home in it- I wouldn't say I've only been here for two months in the last three years, because I was the road and then well all this. And so did and everything that happened has been very disruptive for my family, and course We got so unbelievably, second with something that was supposed to be fatal and recover more or less, miraculously Then I've been so unbelievably ill or still am, and I have just said

just don't know where to put any of this, I can think about the past at all, because so much it is in compress sensible, especially over the last five years. I can't think about the present, because I'm in so much pain- and I can't think about this because I don't know what I'm going to do and I have no idea how long this pain is going to last. It's been, I've been in pain, really severe pain for two years now and and doubts. It's a strange thing is in this book. One of the chapters in the last chapter is called, be grateful in of your suffering, you know, and they went every through every sentence in that chapter. A very large number of times, because much of the time well. I was re writing it particularly. I was in a lot of pain and like its crib it it's it's it's a pain level, that's hard to

fathom in some sense, because I would say every single day I have now is worse than any day I ever had in my life before I got ill so and then I know very well that term batty bitterness to you malaise is a very bad idea. You know it doesn't help, but that that I- certainly see the attraction and that I feel like shaking my fist up the sky and training bitterly and but it it doesn't help, but it but it doesn't seem to be any relief either, and so that's it. So it no perverse, had shaken my face. I suppose I mean Is perverse position where my work as in principle helped so many people, In the end, I don't seem to be able to dig myself out of my,

circumstances. So. Or even to make sense of them yeah. I think that I think that the role that you ve you played is, is a kind of a transition, roar and that transition manifests itself to you as a as air Trying to have your feed on two sides of reacting two islands at our floating away from each other, and you you you're trying to hold on you're trying kind of help people focus on the middle and help people avoid rat innovation and avoid falling into camps in a manner that will lead to. The God knows and so I think that I think the debts role that you played and its and it's been

I like I've- seen, for example, people transition, through your work, transition from worlds moving worlds, It's really what I've seen happen is more. And just changing the way in your opinion, or changing your mind about something really is about changing the world you and have it, and so that's that's crazy. That's it easy role to play, and especially because, like I said you, you have your foot, You can have your one foot. One eyelids aid. Looking towards, I would, all religions are looking towards Croatia. Eddie errors or something like that, and then you have another I, which is still very much, worse in a kind of secular humanism, and you have one leg: that if you want stand, people that are more left leaning, you understand people that are more right, leaning you how this capacity to kind of understand everybody, but you're yeah! That's it!

That means that you make enemies on on all sides to well. You know, the overwhelming response that I've got publicly has been I Say traumatically positive, wouldn't think that that would be possible really, but I find it that way. I mean Part its overwhelming to have people constantly tell me in person their responses to what I've been doing it emotional and I get caught up in that quite quickly. And of course, on Youtube and the social media platforms. You two particularly the bulk of the comments about we are very, very positive. It's ninety nine to one, often in terms of likes and dislikes it and and they'd too much. Why don't we dont know how to I dont know how to I dont know what kind

going to put it in. I dont know how to conceptualize it. I mean part of part of me. The practical part, of course, as well. I just happen to adopt a new knowledge at a time when it started to boom and failed kind of nations. It was empty in that technology at that time, but in some sense that that doesnt really cut it. You know. It doesn't have anything to do with the content. Then I think what Have been dealing with these while border religious issues, while certainly not just borderline? There's lots of religious people who seem to think that I'm dealing with religious issues and. Well, that's really what I wanted to talk to you about tonight, so This book I mentioned earlier to talk about. Agreements with by conceptualisation of Christ? Let's say which are, and I'm not sure what that conceptualisation is by the way exactly it's. ST me, but

but I can say some some concrete things about it. I mean I certainly I can understand and appreciate the symbolic if, against of the ideal human being in that fight. Its embodiment, and I took these ideas in large part from union and Eric Norman that that Christ is a represent. Praise is at least a representation of the ideal man, whatever that isn't and we we all interesting enough. We all seem to have an ideal and we, that I or that ideal has us right and that's where its the interesting to consider the role of conscience, because Europe, conscience will call you out on your behavior and which seems to function as something that somewhat independent or at least something that you can't fully voluntarily control, because if you could voluntarily control it, then

just tell the pesky little bastard to go away or to Papua. Back continually because there, be few things in life more pleasurable than than being fully committed, narcissist too really believe that everything that you do is right and that you're a good person and I suppose, if did wave a magic wand and rearrange your minds so that it was constantly telling you that you do it, but you don't seem to able to do that in relationship to your conscience? It trips you up and so and so it tells you when you're not living up to your own ideal, and that means that you have an ideal and you don't even know what the hell it is, but you certainly know when you transgress against it, and I know that a strong line of christian thinking, that's identified the conscience, with divinity sometimes with Christ inside someone with the Holy Spirit and

we are very interesting conceptualisation, but you can think of them psychologically and you can even think about them biologically. You know to some degree because we're so social if we don't manifest an approach, moral reciprocity, organ to become alienated from our fellows and we want survive and it will suffer and die, and we won't, we certainly won't find a partner and and children successfully and so to some degree the conscience can be viewed as the voice of reciprocal society within and that's a perfectly reasonable biological explanation. But but the thing as is the deeper you go into biology, the more it shades into something that appears to be religious because you start annulled. Using the funds

mental structure of the psyche itself and it becomes something while it big becomes something with a power with with with a with with a power that transcends your ability to resist it, So ok, so you can think about grace from a psychological perspective and that the credit, the critic, my critic, this particular critic that I've been reading. Said well that that doesnt differentiate Christ much from a whole sequence of dying in resurrecting mythological gods, and of course, people have made that claim in parity of religion, Joseph Campbell, did that and you to a lesser degree I would say, but Campbell did that, but the d France and see us Louis pointed this out as well. The difference between those mythological gods and Christ was that there is theirs

representation of there's, a historical representation of his of of his distance as well. Now you can debate whether that's genuine, you can debate whether or not he actually lived and whether there is credible objective evidence for that, but it doesn't matter. In some sense, because this, while it does, but There is a sense in which it doesnt matter because through still a historical story, and so what you have in the figure of Christ is an actual person who actually live plus a myth and in some Since Christ is the union of those two things, the MRS. I probably believe that, but I don't know I don't amazed at my own beliefs- and I dont understand because I've seen sometimes the objective, world and the narrative world touch.

You know: that's the union synchronicity he that many times in my life. And so in some sense, I believe its undeniable. We know we have a narrative sense of the world for me that, in the world of morality. That's the world that tells us how to act, It's real like we treated like it's real, it's not the objective world narrative and the object of world touch and the out an example of that in principle is supposed to be Christ, but I dont know what to do, and that seems to me oddly plausible. But I still don't know to make of it? It's too had partly because it's too terrifying, a real me too, fully believe I don't no, what would happen to you if you fully believed it if you believed in the story of Christ, if you believe that history and and to the narrative make meet level, I don't think you, because we,

you believe that you, by both those stories, you believe that the narrative and the objective can actually touch we saw that you- and I mean this- is a trivial example, but we had a when were discussing we had to seek, of discussions. Rome, frog, symbolism. Four years ago I was- very bizarre to say the least. You know now what trivial example. Relatively trivial example of the narrative world in the objective world coming together, didn't feel trivial, at the time, while the way The way that I like to deal with this is that one of the few Is it it it's already there in your thought It's already there in the way that you talk about reality, which is that one of them, attitude of aspects of How reality unfolds and how it appears to us is something like attention It's something there's a hierarchy of of manifesto.

Because everything that happened that appears to us in the world has an infinite amount of details like it has an indefinite amount of ways it you could describe it. Did you good angled it by which you could analyze it Enzo. Nonetheless, the world appears to us through these, Turkey's of meaning right, I always can use the example of a cop or a chair. Take a chair is is just a multitude of things. It's a multitude of parts. How is it that we can say that it's one thing? There's it there's a couple we have to attend this capacity we have to attend is something like a co creation of the world. And so the world actually exists, not share is a good example, because you know you can try to define it objectively, but you end up with being bags and stumps and examined we don't have anything in common while they're, both made of matter. You know, for whatever that's worth its pretty pretty trivial. Of course reality, but you can sit on them.

As we have now is a mode of being which define the alarming that sir, so strange. So many of our object perceptions are projected modes of being and so even the object of world is in reluctantly contaminated with its utility and within it therefore with morality exactly until I think that that's the key, the keys that When do you understand that the world manifests itself through attention and consciousness has a place to pay and actually the way in which the world reveals itself, and so you can. You can right deposit, a world outside of that first person perspective, but it see a good booted, its aid to deluded, you're. It's also did so very, very difficult because you don't you don't know what to make of it thing like time, because time hasn't in Iraq the company subjective element and duration, which is different than time. I mean time is kind of like the average rate at which things too,

and but duration is something like the felt sense of that time and with you, take away, subjectivity. It isn't obvious what to do with time and I think physicists stumble over this all the time so to speak. So can this is something that, this intermingling of value. In fact with something that I never thought. I never thought it made much tracks, with with Harris with SAM Harris, you didn't, seem to me to be willing to admit how saturated the world of fact is inevitably with value I actually think he's denying the science at that point because for breathing. I know about perceptual psychology he's a great book called vision as a oh god, no Remember the name of vocs: that's memory, trouble I'll, remember it is that is that if that is true, then there are certain things which come out of that

certain necessary down the road from that that incite, which is that attention plays a part in the way the world laid itself out and that one of them and the one of those that this stuff, that the world is made of his partly something like attention, something my consciousness. That has a patter and that pattern is the same pattern as stories it just ages? It then, let's about exactly the same. But things exist with a pattern which is similar to stories. They have identity they have centres. They have margins, have exceptions and that's how stories lay themselves out like saw a story happens in time. How an eye entity. Let's eight is broken down and then reconstructed. You could say that that basically, the story of every story how something breaks down any reconstructed and so

That is a way for us to perceive the identity of things and job. If the world is made of this, then it's actually It's actually our world, our secular world, which is a strange aberration. On how reality used to exist for every culture in every time. From the beginning of time, which is to take that for granted to take for granted that something that they didn't call it consciousness. But intelligence and attention are part of how the world lays itself out and it lay this out in modes of being and one of the things that out of it is not only that but, like you said Not only that you have ideas, but its ideas have you or that it's not only that you engage in modes of being that modes of being have you

Recognition means that the first level of the first level of attention to that looks something like worship. It looks like celebration, it looks like it. It's. I got the thing which makes the let's eat the National Hockey League, so successful, more to do with celebration than just a bunch of guys on skates on a piece of ice. You know throwing apocrypha There is a celebration of the purpose of that thing in a manifest itself through a bunch of stuff which one is like Brophy that stand in the middle. On the top of a bunch of honour, stand and everybody looks at it in kisses it, and- and- and so there's this this veneration yeah go in there that mascots link. The hockey league example is very interesting because it's it's it's,

social game and know all the players. Are there. Opting to aim right right. So there symbolic element to that sin is misplaced aim, and so you hit you the small space in the net block them maybe by your enemies, Everyone celebrates that any friend you do that in cooperation with other people and in competition with other people, and if you do it properly, not only are you a brilliant player from a technical perspective, but you are also a great sport, and so there is an error Ec therein, immorality- and- and this is why people are upset when hockey players or any other pro athlete does something immoral in their personal life is because it violates the the ethic that that's being celebrated as a consequence of this great game right

so you can see that that the striving for an ideal motive being the religious striving for an ideal motive being is central to what it is that makes hockey addictive yeah. It necessarily and the answer, daughter pro wrestling new majority men tree bread heart, hit men hearts, one of the best documentaries I've ever seen, and it portrays pro wrestling as a stark religious battle, between the forces of good and evil and bread heart. Who at one point was the most famous Canadian in the world was over well by his the architecture, force of his represent Mission as the good guy, it's a great documentary, Hitman heart and ended shows you how you know: wrestling is. Is it's not the world Most intellectual activity to say that east and people can easily be dismissive of it, but one

the things I loved about the documentary was that it attempted to understand and from within what was compelled about what was being portrayed in. It was a religious drama. It just death was shocking. Brilliant, and so so is that is actually there is this. There is an objective part of that that there is an effective way in which these patterns kind of come gather and manifest that a higher and higher versions of this drama, and so the sport, drama has a certain level but its its limited, certain extent because it still happens as it. Cantation letter between two irreducible science, and so what happens something like the story of Christ, is that that gets taken into one person until all the opposites become the king and the criminal there

the highest, even in the image of the cross. You have this image, then the ash crisis being crucified, they're, putting aside above his head, saying that he's the king ass crisis being beaten, they are giving to him a crown, and so We joined together all the opposites, and so in his in his story, You see if you, if you're attentive to these patterns, you see the highest form of this pattern being played out. And one of the aspects that has to be there for it to be the most reveal their. His form is that it also has to include the world of manifestation. It cannot just be a story. It has to be connected to the world. So that's why Chris and insist on the fact that Jesus is, just a story that he's an incarnates. It meant that he was in current. But I dont believe they're insistence well this is. This is because I dont it isn't

we have to me and I think maybe I d This criticism from nature, but me people have asked me whether or not I believe in God and I've answer, various ways no but I'm afraid he probably exists. That's that's one answered he. I know, but unterrified. He might exist that that would be truthful answer to some degree or that I act as if God exists, which I think is. I do my best to do but then there is a real stumbling block their because. There is no limit to what would happen if you acted like God existed, you know what mean because I believe that that acting not out fully. I mean. Maybe it's not reasonable to say two believers, you aren't you transformed for me to believe that you believe in God,

that you believe the story that you're telling me you're. Not you not efficient you're. Not the way you live sufficient testament to the truth. People would certainly say that lets say about the catholic church, or at least in the way that it's been portrayed is that with all the sex, corruption, for example, its, like really really, you believe, the Son of God- did it Jesus come was the Son of God, and yet you act that way, and I'm supposed to buy your belief and and seems to me that the church is actually quite guilty on that account because the attempts to clean up the mess have been rather half hearted. In my estimation, and so I dont think people people don't matter Christians, Don manifestos and I'm, including myself. I suppose that description perhaps dont first, the transformation of attitude that would enable

Naples the outside observer, too easily conclude that they believe tat the other way, the way to deal with that? The way to it I understand that is that it they do with it, do in a hierarchy there is a hierarchy of manifestation of the transformation that God offers the world and kind of live in that hierarchy and those above us hold us together. You would say: in the church- there's a testimony of the saints theirs. They are story. There are hundreds and hundreds of stories of people who live that out in their particular context, to the limit of what it's possible to live it, and even today there are there. Saints living saints who, for example, you're that extradition. We have this idea of what they call it: the gift of tears or the joyful sorrow of of people who live in prayer, a with weeping inconstant weeping and it's this kind of

a strange mix of joy and and sadness which day which kind of over on them? And they live in that joint sadness, nonstop and they pray in a without end and so that exist. But then we in this dip, that's one of the reasons why that's kind of one of the reasons why, when I talk about this idea of attention like it, manifests itself in the in the church as well, is that you often say- and I understand it when you say something like you know- I act as if God exists, or you know, I'm. Aid to Haiti, cod exist, and I think it's because you, you think, are used and to think that the moral wait like of that. So strong that you would- would crumble under it, that you would just be crushed under it and and I believe that- and I think that that is. I think that I understand that, but.

The first thing that to act as if God exists. Let's say this way to act as if God exists. The first thing that I ask of you is not a moral action. The first thing that it ask ask ask of you is attention, that's why to act as if God exists is first of all to worship. That's ended. I know people Guinness here this about then I'm gonna have a terrible problem without economic, because I'm in so much pain like one of the things that one, salute theologians disgusting the aim of an Soria. I want won't, let you get back to your point, but he discussed the idea of the yoke of is being light and that there is joy in it and There's a paradox there, obviously because it's it's also it take Your cross and follow me sort of thing, but

fact that I've been living in constant pain makes. The idea of joy seem cruel, I would say, so I have no idea how to reconcile myself. To that I mean I've reconcile myself to that by staying alive. Despite it, you know, although. By staying alive despite it. But there is very little worship, it doesn't mean I'm not appreciated, what I have Not only am I appreciate if what I have, I do, every I can to remind myself of it all the time, and so does my wife. I mean she's changed quite a bit as a consequence of her struggle with cancer and no one should become more overtly religious, I would say, and in a we say great before our meal and in the evening, and it's very serious enterprise and it always centres around gratitude to know before well for for the ridiculous

Volume of blessings that have been showered down upon us, that volume- that's really quite in common sensible, but despite that, no outlet despite that, I'm struggling with this because I dont know how to reconcile myself to the to the fact of constant pain. Can I don't. I feel that its unjust, which is half way to being resentful, which is not a good outcome. No, I I I agree and I can't speak like I can't I dont know how to speak to that cause. I don't necessarily dont have experience. You know I don't I I don't have that. I don't know with constant pain. It's I don't know what that would do to me. You'd, probably problem the reasons why it might ruin me. You know until it's very difficult to answer that. I think that the

sir, like the answer has been the cross. Like that's been, the answer it needs. Maybe may be easy for me to say it that way, but that's always been the answer of of Christianity, which is that the guide went to through the cross and that God went down into death and and plunge down into debt then there are that there are mysteries, hidden and or maybe they're very well hidden, but there are miseries headed in that then that depth. But it's not, I don't think it's my job to to do more. Lies to you at this for at this particular moment. So we talked him The narrative and the objective touching, and so I wanted to touch on that again- is that, like idea, I understand Cs Louis's argument, and you know, I'm even inclined from TAT

in due time to think what I've got the choice between bleeding to impossible things. I can neither believe that in, world is constituted so that God took on flash and was crucified and and and died in rows three days later or I can believe that here beings invented this unbelievably preposterous story that stretched into every atom of of culture and end. It is obvious to me that this, second hypothesis, is any reason to believe that the first, because the more you investigate that the manifestation of the story of Christ, the more insanely complicated and far reaching it become so I in Ireland, for example, and for all of those who are least If you want to read a book that will completely make you insane, then you renewables ion and it study of Christians. Symbolism in astrology which doesn't sound, pretty

very dangerous, but our or or or even particularly necessary to read, I suppose, but Yo Yo describes the the Next, the position of astrological and Christians, symbolism and it's a brilliant book and it's terrifying, because he he outlines the concordance between the levels of symbolism over seven thousand years and its obvious when you read the book that no one, what is this? It's, not a conspiracy, whatever going on to make that clear prudence occur, isn't some that we understand and it seems to be best understood as one these situations, where the narrative and the objective touch the saturation of Christianity with fish symbolism, young associates with astrological movement of of up in

the House of Pisces and, and so he he describes how a drama. So ancient people saw drama played out in the sky, and that was objection of their imagination and that Jackson contained symbols that were associated with the emergence of Christianity, and so you can see in that the the of the alternative, explanation is that there is this there's this on holding of a symbolic landscape over centuries or millennia. That's part of human by law people in cultural evolution, but that that starts to touch on the religious anyways when you, when you describe it in those terms that gets its the operation of a cognitive of unnatural cognitive process. Let's say natural, slash, cognitive process that supersedes any one individual or any one culture, and so

I've never seen a critique of eye on you know. I think people read that book and they think her. It's like on a leg, Rosa the sacred the mushroom in the sacred crossed. Do you know of that book? I believe. That's the title. That's another book, you read new, think well, I have no idea what it it's. A study of. Mushroom symbolism in Christianity and it's another book that it claims that Christianity was heavily influenced my so I've been using. It was published in the nineteen sixties. It's amazing book, but it's another book. You read me I have no idea what to do without. I have no place to put that book. So, but I on is really like that, and one of the things that, for example, you know we ve talked about just me for the idea that you know these cries being a dying in resurrecting God, and you know that really actually not the case. If you ask

Just look at the story of Christ and not just the story in scripture, but late, Liddy, the whole story and it can develop and tradition in kind of melted together. Engine worthy had this idea of God's. It went down into the underworld, you know that went down for some reason to visit or went down to save somebody even or you know or or or died and then and then rose again, but that's actually not the story of Christ, because if you, if you understand the full tradition the christian story, we think that Christ died, went into Haiti's and then destroy death. And he pulls everybody out of death. And then that's it like What other story are you going to tell after that story a story of some who dies goes into death and then take and then destroys death and end? That's it like that. That's the thing with cried story that every story, every aspect of his story reaches the limit,

storytelling and if it's impossible banks in the you got it right. That's right! That's right! While even from a psychological perspective, that's correct! That in itself is a kind of miracle and failures dark in some sense constantly having to choose between miracles. It's like ok, it's if it's a figure, of the human imagination fine, but it's the limit figment in more. The pull ways? How did that happen, and also but as soon as you started start to think that the world is made of attention, the idea of just a figment of somebody's. Donation press release of just a figment of someone's imagination. Witches happens, like you said over thousands of years within communities of thousands of people, it just becomes a ridiculous statement. It does it doesn't mean anything it's like, It only mean something. If you assume that and a new pointed this out, it only mean something. It only say it's a figment of imagination and have that

brush aside, means that you think that imagination is nothing and deal pointed out constantly that you should not did nothing to the psyche. Midge You depend upon it the ground of your existence. It's it's it's! It's not nothing! It's the thing you that for granted more than anything else, so any anything that Ukraine's or recognise as a story will definitely be manifesting patterns that you can recognise, and so they can't just be brushed aside. From this from the inmost insane conspiracy theory to them, You know like childish, fairytale anything that manifests itself as a. Pattern of story that you can recognise his has us certain level of value, has us a level that, if you pay attention to it, you actually taken gathered some some some nuggets over of how the

What works and how the world leads itself out that's? Why like, if I finally symbolic interpretations that can do it for scripture, but I can also do it for some more. A movie or some video game or whenever it is. That's just, though, were you to even recognize something as having being its already part of that world is already manifesting. These patterns, this critic, said that the mere psychological nation of Christ. Was insufficient because an you may the same case in some sense that it Makes sense unless the narrative and the object of world truly touch, and I think you could debate that, because I think that there is some felicity there could argue, and bees be some utility in a secular version of the hero myths. You know that the best way to cope with existence is too for today.

The truth interface, what you dont know forthrightly and that will enable you to orient yourself within our fine, and bounded existence that ends with our death more properly more accurate we more advisedly than any other route. I've seen people from orthodox priests too. The more the most protestant Protestant you can imagine recognise in the way that you represent reality, something that has value something that has value because you are. You are manifesting that that patent, like what you're saying is, is true, but I think that I think that if we, if we, if we take seriously this the problem friendship between attention, psyche and the way the world reveals itself to us, then it scaled up its scales up after that it is a jumps up, a level

and it also scales up in terms of because one the things that one of the things that they did. You talk about like looking up to the star and and looking up to the high thing you can look at and then aiming towards that you know once again, one of the things that does frigate is that the fee thing you do is actually were it's a for its attention to people like the word worship, it's a form of reverence for veneration. You submit yourself today this is not just that you see the aim and that you aim for you actually have to submit yourself to that which is to what your Amy and so that give rise to it exactly any had to sacrifice to one's own, that's why that's the religious version of this the move towards the highest possible aim, I'm one that we can do together because, like the law aims like you could call something like lower gods. They are jewels or whatever you want to call them like these were aims there,

value, but their old, fragmented. But if for this to stack up, we need to be able to look towards the same image. We need to look towards the same aim, and that will bind us together, and so we don't we dont all, then we don't also end up being just kind of individuals who have the of the world on our shoulders, but we're communion of Saint were communion of people who are submitted to aiming towards. Worshipping the same point: yeah and I believe that that's necessary and I've I've had some profound. Variances, which I can't really relate here, that of of necessity for that community. Is that this, whatever our fundamental moral load is immense. Though it is crushing, though it is even requires.

Participation of others. So, even if you were the perfect you, you would need other people two to be along with you. It's a collective enterprise, even though its and individualistic, even though it requires the perfection it requires as perfection, as is possible at the individual level. That's not. Ass there has to be that communal elements as well. You need help we need help to aim as heart to heart, steam requires communal endeavour and its also, because it actually is the way that everything works. You know it's like the chair. Amy be a chair is it is. It constitutes the above parts which are joined together towards ass, a same goal and therefore hold together as a being first the tyranny of the chair and that's the same with you. You have all these thoughts. Radio bodies feelings all these. These contradict things inside you and you need

aiming towards. You know that I may I believed that the image of Christ Liddy by aiming towards the image of Christ, You constitute your being into that. Being that able to ten to sacrifice to love and then scales up with people agree either you are aiming, and this is another something else I tried to point out to SAM. You worry. Your aiming you're, either aiming at Christ or something lesser or if things go really out of hand, your aiming at something opposite wit- and you don't want to be doing now, but- and this is a matter of definition in some sense and in its actually not impossible to understand is that you aim at thing better. Generally speaking, I mean maybe you're out to cause pain, but forget about that. You, but something better. You wouldn't do it unless it was better. In fact, it did version defines better like the whole idea of better is

Located on the idea that there is an aim that beyond you and then the highest of those aims is the amalgamate the highest aim is the Imelda may amalgamation of all higher aims and that's a perfect mode of being an and that by no that's a psychological perspective again that by definition is Christ and then but then there's to be something too convenient about CS, Louis's insistence that that also had to manifest. Itself, concretely in reality. At one point it History and are not. I. I don't understand why. I should believe that, and I do ten, not to believe things without a. Why there's always a why and and there's there's a hurdle there that I know that

well that I waver on constantly because I already said that year you think these things through at least my experience has been if you think them through sufficiently you end up with the choice, when impossible alternatives and soda. But it has to do one of ways to see it may be is. Is it to do with the recognising of the goodness of the world are the goodness of creation that that the world is capable of manifesting these patterns right If you want to understand, for example, the big conflict between the early gnostics and the Christians, that's what it was all about six basically wanted a decent chlorinated Christ. They were saying you know day a view the world as utterly fallen as having no value having too, escaped having to be fled in every way, whereas Christianity, posits that

it's a non dual, it's an annual proposition, it saying it's, it all comes together. That's that's the promise. It all comes together, so it has to come down right, and so it has. Come down at every level and Not only that is out to come down into the person of prices in current aid, but that person has to cook and down into death to the very bottom, of the world. You know tat the belly, the leviathan and then come back up. And so the whole world is declared has once again declared as being capable of participating in this good so until you could say will maybe maybe wasn't that one, maybe wouldn't you know like. Why would it be that particular particular place where, They might have less and less. The story. I mean that's where that that there is no other, story like that story that we have and Enzo

once you recognise that this is part of the declaration that the world does embody. These patterns it leads to this leads to that. That did this story of a man who embody them absolutely and is bringing us in him to also embody them in a way that will transform us. You know like that that the ultimate goal of orthodox vision of Christianity is is the office is to be come. God to become through to transformation and participation in guy. That's. The final goal of everything is to become a participant in the divine and how do you? How do you distinguish them from catholicity? night burning in terms of that, I think that is a difference of emphasis. I think for sure you orthodox emphasised the closest more than the than the Catholic. The Catholics are kind of. If you about

this in terms of its there and some of the thinkers, but it, I would say, probably not official catholic doctrine, but I think without Theo, says you're missing. The point of the whole thing are: you are missing. The and of of everything like way. Why do things exist right like why do things exist? And so I think that the idea that they exist to participate fully in their most perfect form, like that's what they're called it too departed to do you know, and it ends up being a declaration of the ultimate possibility for goodness and world. I think that that's why it. It seems it seemed to me I have observed, let's say that it's possible to.

It isn't obvious to me that anyone wants to leave a live, a meaningless existence. I dont think you can live a meaningless existence without becoming corrupted, because the pain of systems, will corrupt you without us, saving, meaning, and It also seems to me that You can sell the story that meaning is to be found in responsibility when I've tried to all that story to myself. I seem to buy it and when I have tried to communicate it with other people renders them silent large crowds of people silent and that's strange, because I'm not sure why that is. It is perhaps because the connection When responsibility meaning had never been made for in that, explicitly somehow because meaning it terminated with happiness or something like that, but is to be found.

And responsibility, and then you can say what there isn't anything any response. Really that's more compelling than trying you, ain't things in the manifestation of their divine form, there should be an adventure that could be sold, and I dont know why the church can't do it. I dont understand that and. Because it seems to me that that something that I've done at least in part not accounts for the strange popularity of the biblical lectures in particular and. But I've also- and I do believe that I do believe that the right driving is to attain with all your heart to encourage things to develop along that towards that divine like what else would you possibly do when you think that oh it's like

We are always aiming at something. That's better or you wouldn't be aiming Euro is moving towards something. That's better. You wouldn't be moving. So then, why? Wouldn't you move towards the greatest good their lot? Because it's terrifying, I suppose in part, but then I say you know, I've tried to put that into practice in my life and. Its tearing me into pieces. No, no though, if, if one of them, reasons. It is because you are also alone, and I because you, I mean Elisa to my understanding, you're, not in enacting a community. Well it's hard to say I mean it hard to say. His fans are certainly less well they

mean community, I mean one of the things that has held me together. Certainly is the commitment that I feel too, to the people who have been so positive towards me and my family. I do feel it as a community, I understand what you mean, why the hell not go to church now. I know you wasn't gonna come right out and say enjoyed by now you're, not that blunt about it, I suggest that you know it's not just about going to church. I went on my. I told you something and- and I don't know. If I could try, if a little to drive it through their there's something about being a hierarchy. That is that the biggest as an aspect of being an. I argue that you talk about, which is this kind of striving to to to be the best within that hierarchy, but there's an ass to being in a hierarchy which is that the hierarchy covers you will definitely. There is no doubt about that.

So there's something about. Sadly, why the lowest men, men that the lowest This members of a chip group will still fight off interlopers yeah, and so there is theirs value in being in a community Anna and a higher Where you like, I got a confession. I go to confession, I go to my priests and I confess my sins and and I give that to him- he actually takes responsibility for for an aspect of listening to my sins and and gonna party Debating in my salvation and he and so the weight and are being distributed across the community it's not so you don't actually just bear it on your on yourself. When it's not just even any, it's not just the living community, its it it's not, oh, that are alive in the their entirety, but those that are that have left their story. All the saints are part of this hierarchy that you gauge energy participating in that you see as

consolation as examples. As you know, as examples of people who have lived through difficult thing that you can kind of, then you can shoulder up again. As you know, has. Oh that's one of the reasons why I kind of insufficiently food people to watch. My videos is. Is it when I Go to church, it's not just because I to demoralising doing some thing: it's because it's it's actually a participation in how the best vision of reality works. I've got no objection to any of that. But I mean you- I will bring you object. I probably one of the only people in the world that has actually seen you in charge and seen you yeah. How does go worm urban Church Y see the other day?

I was reading again. I was reading this book in its bid, mostly a jumping off place for me to think so. There is also something big, I'm not inside the church. So to speak. It's hard to say what the utility of that is, the euro. Eddie of being inside the church- being outside it I'll beings, because an outsider talking about religious matters, but I think that I think that I think that it has played a great role like I've often said something that I have often said: did you something like King Cyrus? He noticed We have King Cyrus in scripture kings I was persian king- who told the Jews to go back to Israel and build a temple, so he was in jewish. He was. He was an Israelite, you wouldn't believe in the God of the Israelites, but he was, Ok, you know that temple of yours looks pretty nice. Why don't you just go back there in and we build your own own thing, and so that's death

in effect that I've seen you have. You know the number of people that have become. Christian because of you is Larry, is it's that elected its this kind of it this guy. This strange think of you, you, you kindness and outside, and you look at you you're, looking at the door and looking at the church and you saying hey, this is not so bad. You know look at this. What is going on here like what is this about and and then because of their how they tell us who do you think you ve got something better. I was talking to a friend of mine, the other day when we were walking because, as I said, I walk about ten miles a day. Right now try to keep myself, under control, and you know he raised a communist in Poland and is and then an atheist, and he was coming, I think I think this is what he told me that complaining to his parents at one point about a religious wedding that they were going to, despite not believing then he said ass. He got older. He realized he had nothing to replace that with so

Ok, throw it out fine, Ok. Now, where are you well you'd, just as bad off as you before, but you also don't have that beautiful thing. What what but if we dispensed with Christmas which largely did good. They were waiting to hear us in their new atheists slights. Let's get rid of Christmas, we or we could say we could make it entirely secular, but then it would just disappear, but you That's what's gonna happen, because religion is inevitable and worse, it? Coming back and very strange ways, it's gonna, be Weird woke to tear in religion, which is which is going to come back. That's why limit? As you know, we did part as part of its going to try lands doesn't matter. We can you leave that gas or is it just scary thing like that's what you could say that that's one of the failures of the new aid us is that they lead to, though, would they partly led to the new woke phenomena, because they they didn't realize that you can't get rid of

religion, you can't get rid of rituals. You can't get rid of the problems and opportune. Means of identity. All of these things are going to come back. He tried to just. If you tried rush them aside and they're gonna come back in view weird ways and without you realizing what's going on people kneeling to a shrine of a man who was killed by policing, putting a halo on his head and no and himself more find themselves in doing all kinds of insane things. Are that look to you insane, but that you need understand it's just it's just this religious impulse gone gone off the rails, so Yes and then the question is what the right place for it. Try you know I've I've, I've thought in my. I suppose it's a form of comedy that Catholicism is saying, is people get you know it's baroque right in and an gotta go much gothic, not baroque its gothic. It's dark! It's it's! It's it! It has this

as I said it in some senses, a horror, film and being I'm not being I'm not saying something denigrating by that I mean it's part of it, Strange mystery and all strangeness is necessary, because people would be much more insane without it than they are with it so container for that religious impulse that impulses to the to the good, ended and and the image of the of the crucified. Ice, and also the act of communion gathers in all the extremes together right is complete. You think of the symbolism, Communion you'll notice that it gathers in every extreme from the highest to the most Transgresseth, all of it Together towards unpacking that its merits cannibalism in the service of God. Anybody it's also it's also seen as a

as a normal, like meal of communion and its and also seen as a US as sexual union, because you there a relationship there's a notion in which then in the all, and in that moment of communion, there's the joining of heaven and earth to know the rays of the chalice and there's this joining which is which is this image of this sector a union between God and the sole between God in his church, and so all of it is jammed into this into into this ritual as it. In the center of reality would call it, and so, like you said, you, get rid of that then you're going to have all kinds of strange fact, versions of it that are going to pop up and I'm going to try to replace it, and it's leading to the fragmentation of our world and to the breakdown of the west for sure. So. Back to this idea of the d the the

the logical level and historical level can joining. I thought of that is convenient. They know it's that that's stumbling point for me in relationship to the core Jeanne story. It's you say. It has to be like this. If the world is constituted in a good manner, there has to be made. Is that so about how much of this sort out its duties. Let me say one just. Let me say this one thing, because I've been struggling towards that this whole. It's an active phase and so let's say that your face is that you decide to make the notion that reality is good, the cornerstone of your face. It's something that you that you that you believe, or is it something that you courageously assume and is there a dick? Between that belief, and if Courageously assumed that the world is that reality is good. Then the touch

of the narrative and the objective in this manner, that's demonstrated Christ I becomes necessary. Is that the idea, so I to me it's funny, I don't see it as an act of faith in the way that we think of an act of faith like this jump of faith. Or whenever I see it as an act of trust faith as trust you would say, that's fine. That would be a courageous assumption that if it tries to an end trust in the sense. Also of so when we talk about the good we always have to be careful not to just limited to the good to the moral there. There is the moral good, but when we talk about the good we're talking about the good enough in a much larger way, The good news is that the is the pattern of of the things right and in this sense it does the fact that the world lays itself out as ordered as pattern? Inevitably

that there is no way around. You cannot avoid the order of the world, because, because the nordic view to even proceed anything, it has to have an idea. It has to have. A hierarchy has to have a more and half of all these things. It's all there in every ivory, active perception, exactly a reactor perception, and so it's Reactive perception presumes a value hierarchy exactly you can avoid it. So it's not so it's not like an act of faith in the sense that I I I you know, I at the outset think the world these nihilistic and and and and and chaotic like. No, I don't. I think, that on the card, Harry. I think that you could say it in a religious way that the love of God holds the world together. And its inevitable, that things are held together by these by these, these patterns of being that are always aiming

the good, even in the very identity of whatever it is that yours, you're encountering. Let me ask you something personal then mean you you, were born and orthodox Christian. This is something you, came to how. Well. I think that it has something to do with what you said before does has something to do with the sense that Christianity had fallen away from its original story and it's a ridge no all encompassing lit a cosmic narrative so it was really. I would say, in searching for that and kind of discovering symbolic thinking on other fronts and feeling like. I was confronted by this like ok, I can see these patterns. I can see the world through these through through this coherence and Why is it then that the crucial It doesn't have this,

and then then, after more looking and more searching, I realised that he did. They not only did, but that some of the earliest more some of the most in a powerful early saints talked about the world. Exactly this way you know. An answer. When I discovered that then I around, and I saw, for example, that iconography that the relationship between icons and architecture and liturgy. And and all this was like this amazing giant pattern, which was real missing manifesting. Making you participate in way the world actually existed, and so it was like this kind of self business. This positive feedback loop. I guess you put it in a good way, whereas, like you, you, do you recognize these? Aren't you engage in them? You see them. You you sing. Damn you take this whole thing where you engaged in so I realized tat. It was really in the Orthodox church it. This was the most that had been the most

and the most alive, and that I would hear you know contemporary orthodox speakers or thinkers or theologians who talked about the world exactly in that way, and so I thought okay, so this is Place and also because they kept the idea of the office as the ultimate goal, because I think that that You know very very early say to your name, which is gonna like early third century, said the logos b a man so that man would become God, it's the earth, some of the earlier Saint said that unites. Oh, it's like that's really were Christianity is, and so that's what that would ultimately lead me. I too were to light, is the greatest of all possible visions until I, but I think that you know it Think that it's their later and even in and in other forms of christianity and night. Other things that I've been trying to do is how people kind of wake up to that reality

and try to see it wherever they are going. For you know, I'm dear really serious, I have to talk to you for a long time. I mean you ve got this meaning had a strange few years, as I had a strange for use as well. It's all your fault by the way here, He certainly feels that way, but it's it's a good. It's a good. In that sense, I mean I've in surprise. In the past four years since I met you and you're gonna put me on there in the world. You know Now I would like ninety thousand people following me on Youtube and theirs community of that it's a symbolic thinkers, I'm giving them these two too, to write that down my on my website, I'm putting up a blog theirs it is that kind of get together. Talk about about this, trying to re degraded in their own communities, whether that wherever they come from and I've been just nonstop excited about.

I mean in a way sad to see that I think the breakdown of Christianity is is going to continue I I'm not. I don't have short term hope, for that say the situation, but I do believe that they are that there are seeds which are a kind of being planted and there are people who are getting ready in agenda and will bear fruit. So so it's been just it's been amazing. I have to say- and thanks for that, by the way I hope is you welcome to the degree that I had something to do with it. Did you want? I know one on twitter, you you asked about the virgin birth. I don't know if you, if you still have Judas issues of energy, to talk about that or if

sure why not what the one of them things. It is important, I would say Christianity is understanding that the role that Mary has to play, Liddy in the same. In the same. In the same way that we talk about how the reality of Christ came letter had to manifest itself in the world. For us to understand that the possibility of this thing The possibility of how everything comes together right In the same way sewing, for example, in the old testament, you have the often Egypt places where God and humanity meat. So on the Mountain of Moses in the town, bull in the garden of Eden as well. So you have these in the usual the top of the mountain or there at the end of a temple case. What's that mounted in that's into that's a place where two worlds made: that's the narrative world and the objective world really exactly so there

though, the invisible world, the visible world, the world of of of logos, the where the pattern and then the world of possibility right. They come together and then that's when the coming together. That point is where you see something So it's like that for for everything, that's it remains zocor, but that's it yet. Miracles- are like super events like the they. They show us in reality, in a more and more concise way, but thing is like that right. So even a chair is a bunch of possibilities. Encounter than idea can encounter the purpose logos. And then, then you have it, you can't have just a bunch of stuff we'll have a chair. You need that to meet so at the center every thing, I'm every that exist. There is a little temple a temple there's a little inclination right, a little like a mini one, you desire and one I don't want it didn't seem heretical,

Thing, but there's this little like many thing that happens, and so that aspect has passed a lower part, which is that the nexus of possibilities, the coming together possibilities, and then this thing that this logos, which comes down so this next, two possibilities? You could call it a mountain House Temple a body, that's Mary right! That's that's her that she's the place of manifestation so she's, the Arc of the covenant she's, the temple she's, the mountain she's. All of that, and so. And then in, and then we play that role. You could say the church, the body of cries. We play that role, we come together in love and then the divine, Those descends and manifest to unite the body right together and to feel himself in that unity of the body. So we see Christ in the unity of love. The crisis. They will know you by how you love each other, because

how'd. You know that a body exists is that its coherent did hold together as a body and hope. This body has to be dedicated, has to be located to the thing which is manifesting so like, let's say let's say you have a turkey, you know a car and two bits of ass and you think, I'm going make a chair out of that work. It's not gonna happen right. If I didn't think you were going to go that route, would that's what this is it? This is what it's about. It's not gonna happen that's not dedicated, and in the same way about over a woman and her husband, so woman has to be dedicated to her husband for the union to be recognised, and fruitful. So if a woman is is not is not fatal to her husband than theirs confusion on the identity of the child, but if a woman is dedicated to hug,

which means that she is actually a virgin to all other other identities, she's virginal to all other identities and she's dedicated only to the one thing, so this idea virginity is super important because it's about dedication, its not being mixed or not sunshine and contamination on contamination, and so you can understand that in order for some then to manifest the entirety of the whole matter right. So it's like talk so forth or for someone to be the place of manifestation. For that thing modernize, wonder mother does like rights, what a mother does, because she dedicates herself grit to a greater or lesser degree to bringing someone perfect into being and the more she loves the more she dedicates herself to that in every possible way.

So now the virgin Mary is the extreme cosmic version of that where she has to be perpetual virgin. She's, a cosmic virgin, she is perpetually virgin virginal because she's, like you, can imagine like in order for the sun, to reflect. Upon the waters it nor those men who don't believe that sort of thing should take careful stock of the fact that their frequently terrified out of their skull whenever they encounter someone there attracted to the project that or see it instantly in it, and it did, did it demolishes them and then, if their rejected their crushed. And you can think about that as a projection, but you can also think of it as seeing more deeply. What's there and that you only see that when you're actually attracted to someone and then traction as a basis, because you seeing what they could be, even if you not seeing what's there and so that That's why the news city a virgin birth, because she she

is revealing the highest right, she's like eating like a still ocean, which is which the sun is reflecting and if it was meeting did any would only reflect the mid aided manner and then everything between mitigated, like, I said, a woman whose your husband, obviously not a virgin and technical sense? You could say she's she's, a virginal to others, she's untouched by others, but dedicated to the one man just like well, do you know the degree to which that entangled with genuine virginity off also isn't there also isn't so obvious, you know it isn't we don't know the preconditions are four for setting. Up the ideal relationship and it certainly the cat that we bring the baggage of our previous relationships into our current relationship and maybe sometimes that's for the better, and maybe the virginity can be symbolic, but people certainly be sullied by their past behaviour and sometimes in a way that they can't figure out how to how to how do repair yeah

for sure the accretion ideal has always been that the Red their union a virgins in this that then the dedication and being tighter writer Oh, you are dedicated to your husband and your husband is dedicated to you and then your unmitigated mentally, even right, in terms of memories and in terms of comparing and in terms of all of these things, which we do as beings, and so it it it can prevent slippage in terms of your dedication. So I do know that makes sense in terms of years and all anyone I wasn't mean You know these things grasping these things slips out in and out of my capacity, and I mean I I you did a lovely job thereof of making a symbolic account further Virginia. Of Mary, I understand out on understand weld, but no one's going to prove the rigidity of Mary. Historically I mean that that that's not that.

Something which is not that ours is not possible to secret there's a secret aspect to rigidity which is actually part of its function and is also part of its How can I say this is part of its of its mystery right, which is something which is which is not public. You know it's it's it's we belong, to the identity belongs to know it's like that, the dedication of something belong to that which is dedicated rang out. To some degree I mean I. Imagine that you wanted to form the perfect union with someone felicity? perfect sexual union for that matter. I think that requires love whenever I've had it. In my if a sexual experience that wasn't associated with love it, I didn't feel right about it, my conscience,

bothered me very much very rapidly, and maybe that makes me and outlier although I don't think so. I think I think that that is how people react they refused to notice now might be wrong about that. Maybe I'm a prude, it's possible otherwise, think so, but it's possible, but it always struck me that sex was Bess. Undertaken within the confines of a committed, oven. Emily committed relationship whereas it was lesser, it was the lesser it was less Then it should be made was sullied and now Well, I don't have anything more to say about that than that. That's been my experience in Seoul and I No, what the preconditions are for establishing the perfect marriage, let's say, and the perfect marriage would be one that brought about the

ass possible children. These are not true. Real things. There very difficult things to get right Certainly you want the least amount of animosity. Unnecessary animosity possible between the parents, you want the union to be tight, you want it to be based on of a commitment that seems clear even from the psychological literature So I have another question for an government this idea of Theodosius, I think its lack of iron? I'm tormented by the possibility that its lack of courage that stops people from. From bringing into being that union, with God using.

You think that possibility that possibility there sits there in front of all of us and it was actually realized once in history it. I would say that at least and in the tradition of the church, it was perfectly manifested in Christ, but there of they are other signs that have reached the and that that would work all called too that we are called to to become one with God to the extent that that's the debts people. Then I guess we're stuck with the old problem, which is, if that's the case, than what we Does the world seem so redeemed yeah. Well, because where did where distracted you know with reason where we tend to attend to the lower things you know we we get distracted by are. Our emotions. We get distracted by all these things around us that are trying to get.

Our attention and then we aim towards these smaller things, No, we we aim towards. It is right, we aim towards making money, we aim towards getting desert having some procedure and these because the problem is that these things all give us as us all sense of satisfaction and so day there like little idols? I guess you could call them. Until we just aim towards these. These lower things and and one of the reasons why we struggle to see this higher ideal. You know. And when one of the reasons why I guess with one of the reasons for church as well, is that in a it's kind of forces you, even if your distracted it whenever to come together at least once a week or whatever stand years together in two years as well, and to grant a constant. I knew I understand that there are no. You know. I remember.

The cynicism that was in the air, I suppose, when the Christine many of my youth started to decompose when people started to not ten church in droves. The cynical Justification in part was well. Those are one hour week, Djinns. How but critical, can you get to. Claim allegiance to this high ideal and then to go back and live beer tawdry life? How could it when participated in anything like that and what we replaced it with is never doing it even for an hour a week which is quite a lot of time compared to none. So replacement, is not being an improvement by any stretch of the imagination candle and then we. We replace it because we need to come together and we need to community who need to celebrate, and so we end up doing it in India he's kind of secondary places like sports or politics

and all these other places? The wool would will replace that better ultimately like I said one of the things that help us to trust, lady or or find some respite, and we do it together like we're doing this together, and so the When you see there, sir, Comfort in knowing that that some people have dedicated their life to God and have lived there, way, and it serves as a smaller example, but also as a as a comfort in those we usually and the stories of the saint you'll find time they are struggling when they're there completely off the rails. When they're, not you know when they are struggling with thoughts with. Ashen with desires about you see that in the old testament stories, Amene Abraham is all of the other. Patriarchs that mean they lived full lives complete with cattle

traffic failure in and malevolence and murder and genocide and war and begin and end yet were redeemed, and so I think that that one of the things that helps us too to that. He said to too to see: it's like you, you don't need not have to oversee. You, don't look at the person who goes to charge winter once a year whenever that person has their own thing to deal with you, you, you, you find and you see these these people that are the opposite- that really live in an era. But he has met, I would they probably a few people I gotta these. I met a few that are just. I met some priests monk pre set our glowing like they're, just glow we and there and you see it in their eyes that they live at a level of of peace and acceptance that I don't have access to, and so it's like that type of encounter is also part of you transformation because it gives you it tells you

like oh yeah, I see it in your eyes. I can see that that that this exists in all its not just something we talk about. I want. I want to talk a little bit about Heaven, so I dont mad Ridley, while back and before Long Bergen, I'm interested in their thinking because they're trying to play optimistic course for the future, one where at the highest levels of social integration- and we decide how human society should look at least in so far as we conceptualizing might look if we addressed some of them. The problems that beset us, but it's an attempt in its an attempt to Make things better. It's an attempt to bring about something. Increasing They resembling Heaven on earth mean Heaven is

Generally conceptualize, you can Epps lies. It is a state of being it might be the state of being that those people that you describe live in paradise experiences it where everything and formed itself into something that was perfected. It appeared perfect and I was able to stay in those frames of mind them the Heaven is that something we build is that something I dont understand the relationship between the Heaven that away. This let's say after we die. That's that idea and what we build here on earth did. Those touch is that the door is that two doctrine to so much of this auction. I dont understand better. I think I think away to see it has to do with with attention again, and has to do with a hierarchy of attention in future to build, Heaven going to fail Unifil, miserably, because you

because you're not aiming high enough read your ear aiming and you you get stuck in this in these weird world of opposite that you don't even understand the side effects of what you're doing and so for one person. Having will look like if everything could be perfectly ordered, then right and then you know what that looks like another prison, look in Heaven and think if everything could be free, just be free and then that note that looks like, and so the idea to look hire. You know, there's a there's a there's, a story that what we have to strive for something better. But then we end up in which uses. What you are saying is that we end up with the tower of Babel, or we end up with the flood. There we end up with with the catastrophe, continual catastrophe bond in intended consequences. But, as you yourself said, we are aiming for something better. Is so the question how do you pursue pursue utopia while avoiding the pitfalls? In that

see a logical question I would yet is. I think it. I know. That's a people gonna hate that I say this, but it it's has to do with worship. It still has to do with what where'd you. So if you worship, if you worship those things in your aiming towards the lower things, he worship the them king, a safer society. Few worshiped, making a freer society, worship making a stronger society. All of these things are going to go off the rails, because they. They have unintended consequences. You don't understand, because they're there are fragment of reality. They need to be encompassed together in order to reach something higher It's not a danger of ideology. It's the part takes the play, of the whole, yet they're down there ideas that if you asked, if you worship God, then Those other things will work laid themselves out slowly and you won't be able to force them they'll, but kind of lay them so

shout slowly and they'll start to manifest. You know progressively in and and as you, but you have to attend to the highest, or else like I said you know it there's that there is even like there's an image of Anti Christ which is related to this problem in a in scripture. He could one of the first Anti Christ, you could say, was Jude who betrayed Christ, but there's a story with Judas which is very fascinating because crisis and talk to Judas very often when one of place where Chrysostom Judas when a woman comes in and wants to anoint and wash crates feet with a very expensive perfume. And Judith says what what do we do? like. Why are you doing this? You need it? Why don't we give this to the poor and cry says you know: do poor will always be with you, but the bridegroom Christ. The Messiah, therefore,

a short time ago, the idea that kind of story is very difficult to understand how anyone could have invented that story, like that's, not the story of propagandists. No in fact. It's the opposite, but that's it. It has to do with attention. It's obvious ease in saying age and help the poorer crisis set out the Borys added many that you have to help the poor give to the poor, of course, but here, saying get your higher hierarchy in order and you'll help the poor more effectively in any other. That's that's the case. Through studies likes, it starts with worship and the axis she's doing if you look at which is doing she's. Furthermore, she bought something expensive she sacrificing it she's she's revising it choose to to bow down and to watch the fee to submit, to sacrifice to and to worship those three things like when I talk about the aim, how you end up having to submit to that aim, and so this is what so crises saying. First comes

a ship Jan the world lays itself out below that dinner in an appropriate way and those are our sermon amount says too, and those that are for our saying, help the poor as their ultimate goal in the end so the Judas then even want to help the poor. You wanted to take the money for himself really think he was a thief actually and he was taking the money, the purse and so those they just want to reed. While I support the truth of the matter, is that the genuineness of your desire to help. The poor is precisely proportional to the degree that you embody Christ. The frame can't be otherwise it cannot be. Otherwise. I see that I see that clearly because otherwise things will go astray. So that's one of the poor, Those with the modern projects of utopia is that their thereby ask in their attempts- and you can see like the type of gesture that the world,

authorities are posing in terms of, in terms of say, the extreme like that you know with coal within everything this desire to create absolute safety, this desire to create absolute identification and and tracing, and all of these weird this kind of weird gestures that show that they think they can control reality is, is its leading us towards a very dangerous place mobile? the things I noticed did someone gonna committee at one point that was advising the when in relationship to the establishment of its millennium goals- and there are hundreds of goals- never not rank, ordered who was tower of Babel, because the UK have hundreds of goals that aren't rank, ordered and have any goals at all, because the goal to have a goal means a hierarchy, Thing has to be more important than something else and the

isn't anything more important than getting your act together. So to speak, be no ended, I'm going to have to think about all this. A lot. But there is the question that keeps lurking in in the back of my mind, which is: does the did that's how it should be mean that that's the way that it is in that trust, that's a question of trust guides it. It is a question of trust with the which ends up manifesting itself in love, and I think that that can the love that you have for the world, which is which is which is clear.

Anyway. It shows me that you might be closer to that too, that trust in them. You might want to admit to yourself, maybe don't know what to do with it. I suppose is the real problem, especially in my current circumstances. Death. I'm! I'm, The most confused person I've ever met, I would say- and I've met some pretty confused people so. Well, thank you. That was really something yeah you know it's a I really enjoyed a talk to join and do you know I, like I said there are thousands of people who are praying for you and and keeping me alive. And your story isn't isn't your story is an over. Yet you know so much them pity for me. Well, you know,

I really I can do is really pray that you that you gotta do. I don't know how to how to form they did, but I hope that you that you did you encounter a moment of grace and that you can also find find a body to join with. And I always hear you know like I: we haven't talked in a few years butter. Obviously you're worried. I can stand talking to you what you're more of Europe definitely out a part of my life. You know, even if, if it's too weird Youtube videos, everything no end The people remind me that you're part of my life, All the time, because a lot of people there watch videos in a day. You know they they come. They come from you, they're. Always they always start with was watching drug dealers and videos, and so so Europe gateway to to hear your again.

The way to what I'm talking about you know. So I know that's a good Gateway, thank you for the carving spirit I am happy to note it. Is there that it's in your house, and at Saint Michael, is, is at least holding back gonna be a little bit. We hope tat good talking to you as you talking join anytime.