Welcome to the Jordan, be Petersen Podcast. You can support these podcast by donating to Doktor Peterson's Patria, on the link to which can be found in the description. Doktor Peterson's Self Development programmes self offering me found itself authoring. Dotcom, Doktor Warren Feral is the author of books published in seventeen languages They include, do award winning international best sellers men are the way they are plus the myth of male power. Worn, has been chosen by the financial times as one of the world's top one hundred thought leaders. He is currently the chair of the commission to come, The White House Council on boys and men

he's the only man in the U S. Two have been elected three times to the board of the now the organization for women now in New York City, doktor, feral appeared repeatedly on Oprah. Today. Good morning America and has been the subject of features on twenty twenty in Forbes, the Wall Street Journal People Parade and the New York Times his co author of his newest book is Doktor John Grey, the author of men or from Mars women are from Venus once again. This is the book we're. Gonna talk not only about the book today. The new one, the boy crisis, but also about doktor, fails creed in its goals and his aims, and all of that, and so I'd like to introduce everyone to doktor Warren Feral and ask him to That's what he's up to and why not, I guess what I'm actually the evolution of maybe all that time. Since nineteen sixty nine.

Now, when the women's movement surface, I was very interested in it. We felt that women really needed to be able to be equally respected and into the workplace and have options open, and I was upset that women were not playing sports to a degree that I felt that was creating the benefits then the sports, and so I started articulating this and started talking to my doctoral dissertation advisers about doing this in their first reaction. Was war in the women's movement is justified, and I said I don't think so. I think this is the beginning of the changeover of gender roles from both an interim women, and so I interpret them about that, eventually convince them that I can change my decision and that led me to being seen by

and now, as someone who was a man who is receptive at a time that the famous Google was getting, a lot of accusations are being man haters, and so I think I serve. The purpose of here is a man who hears a man of hills. I flesh man who advocate but were advocating here and get up and say what were you saying? It's gonna be harder to call you a mandate, and so the I started doing that and ended up speaking all around the world on women's issues in the value of women being secure and offend competent enough to be able to share the bread wedding burdens that men handle, and that was of my focused were until the bid, seventies and mid seventies. I began to see that the feminist movement had made a great deal of progress, and was everyone was getting on board? Who isn't it dear me said: upper middle class above an egg

and so on that was at, but it was also a huge number of divorces occurring, and so I began to say it's important for the children have both parents have to divorce. Any financing or his dynamism, the woman, incurring the crow agreed with me, but now the board- and I was on the board it now at that time- had gotten elected as result of lights out advocacy to the board of now and my fellow and now have co workers on the board. It now said we were the dilemma here and the dilemma is that women are writing a saying, they're gonna withdraw from now. If they don't have the option to determine what happens with the children after divorce, and our swedish we don't want to lose now. Membership because is not only important for a family purposes, but for all the other agendas

And so I said what the important thing is: not women's rights or men's rice. The important thing is knowing what's best for the children, and they said yes, Warren great theory, but we really need to his eyes were empowering women at a broad spectrum, and so they ended up all building in terms of giving women the option to be fully involved with the children or not depending on the under the guise of women, know the best know the children the best in there for them? or the children, and so now- and I began to have a significant amount of tension over that point and Betty forget. Forest item, didn't way in say they weren't on the board it now and then all the other boys of now's around the country began to go the same way that the New York City now went in. That said that let me disengagement and also I started following hundreds of men's groups, one of which I think you know it

joint by John Lennon And- and that was at that- had a big impact on those the people in the group. So I begin to see what men's pain was, and so I began to articulate men's pain in as well as women's pain. In my in my presentation, and when I was only articulating women's pain and one's challenges, I would always almost standing ovation, maybe an average of three patients for a new speaking engagement, and that was helping me live financially very well, but then, when I started to integrate the perspectives and feelings men from the many groups are, there was a lot of insolvency. Innovations. Why not? Why not? What new speaking agents by from three to two to one and then eventually to zero well, it seems it seems self evident in some sense that, if your articulating truthfully and carefully-

would be good for either sex. In some sense, you have to be articulating what would be good for both in unless The view that the battle of, unless you view reality as a battleground between the sexes in this and as a zero sum game, we can have intelligent conversation about what's good for women or what's good for man, we have to have a conversation what what's good for men and men and women, and when and men and women, and so why do you think what was your sense of why it was when used to raise these other issues that you were You were a mini immediately unpopular two questions. Why do you say TAT made you unpopular and why is it? that you saw early cotton onto the fact that.

With something going on that wasn't exactly kosher in relationship to now push for four for a particular kind of family structure and a particular view of women's rights. Yes, here I think, would happen to me was I'm just what I saw focusing on what was best for children and then I began to we only have minimal amount of research up for that at that point in time this is your early seventies, and but we had enough for me to make a case to the and when I saw the resistance. The degree to which there is there is two things happening. One is weak, we don't want to lose our power base we don't ever want to have a woman say whatever options she wants should be close to her.

I began to see that the women's movement was carrying more about women than they were a caring about the children. That was the first disillusionment that I had. Ok, so you're fast. Your first ethical point in some sense is that when you are speaking about families- and you have to balance the rights and responsibilities of men, women and children, that it makes sense to you'd, put children well being first and foremost and then due to place many women as individual say or may, perhaps even as a couple blow that yes exactly what I was saying was that freedom of choice is wonderful But when you make the freedom of choice to have a child, you then start pray. Tasting the needs of the child you made, but you knew that those needs. We're gonna, be the child's needs. First, when you

the free choice of wasn't like you're coerced into the into or pressured into making that choice. You made the free choice to have a child that incorporates the need to put the child's perspectives before yours as part of your free choice right. So it's basically the freedom there is the freedom to take on a certain kind of relative Lee permanent responsibility and then to abide by that? Come hell or high water, essentially into the future, that the show We should not respect the parents needs because part of what I took them. The boy crisis is it nobody happy that everybody has to be happy at a family and that, in a part of choosing a child to be responsible, is to choosing the trail not just to have its needs man, but to also care about weapon, whether wet weather mom,

so does need your being met as well, and there has to be very primary primal and introduced early, but that the at and then. Secondly, I also felt to end and better for them This way, also that the women's movement would never go as far as I could go unless the unless men were equally involved and proud of being involved. The following role, because a woman who has to take on the entire We spent a woman who wants to break glass ceilings and go as far as we can, but also, once children. He do that. But the man is working full time and she's working full time is the children get neglected or our something something has to be and so will you often say to me: I want to I have an old woman, I say you can be a habit or woman revealing find a man who wants to be hopeful time with the children and less reshaped. Society somewhere saying that that,

and are not only worrier warriors that we that we praise and call here, when they go to war and they die for us, but there what's the warriors, if they choose, if you, if you choose a man who wants to be fully involved with a child with honor him and respected, because we know that the the social bribes that we gave men to die allowed men to be willing to sacrifice their lives in exchange for being called hero. Well, if we, if we need frame father as being a different type of hero men will follow because men basically go wherever the praise goes, came. Ok, so two hundred and seventy, so you started to put forward the case for children and to some degree as well, symbol, Taneously the case for fathers, and you received a fair bit of resistance as a consequence of that in It sounds like the way you're setting up. The argument is that the conflict, what was the conflict or was it that the the women who

we're being appealed to buy now wanted untrammelled freedom of choice for them under all circumstances, I'm asking is because if you have children, obviously half the children you have female and you'd assume that if it was a matter of of women's opening up what would be best for women in any kind of medium to long term, manner that the concerns about daughters would be. Perhaps even if it isn't concerns about some that would be concerns about daughters that what emerges paramount even over the concerns of the mother. So so what is it that was? I still don't exactly get. Why was that you weren't being successful because it it doesn't make sense, because the private The priority was to things happening simultaneously. One was such a strong emphasis on freedom and the freedom manifest and in two areas? What is in the area of divorce and The women were often saying I dont, like

husband. I want to start a new life. I want to be able to move out of state if I wish to to get a job that I want, or my new husband Matthew, husband, her boyfriend hazard as it wants to move out of state, and so I want to be able to take. My children are child with me because an end- and I know what's best for my child, which would be elected. Your medical community saying we don't want women to be participating in the medical community because we know what's best for the patient. Not now not that women might have separate contribution to make. On the other hand, there was the that there women, who wanted to have the freedom to be able. Children without being married, and so fifty three percent of women, The thirty today who have Children in the United States have children being married and the belief was again that women knew what was best for the children. So we get that they could take this autumn,

you wanna too, and they couldn't find a man that they really wanted to raise the child by themselves with the children themselves against social part of it was actually driven by questioning the society of the nuclear family as the smallest viable unit and part of the aid that corrected and being the feminist community started when it when I would go to feminist rallies and so on. There would be many books about yeah, then in and be the nuclear family being the patriarchal thing. There were a pressing women and so there. So I think the feminist at the feminist moving grew out of to use it. One, was the civil rights movement. When there was no pressure and an oppressed, then there was

the UN and the movement of not just civil rights. But after the summer, after sunrise movement came the the Marxism and the belief that they were oppressors and oppressed. Among a marxist and a lot of the feminist movement. The early feminist, who was very, we had groups like red stockings and many other groups like that that were socialist workers party, took terminus that very much bleed and marks, and they had the dichotomy of oppressor versus oppressed. So when it came to men, men cause we earned more week because our biological- not by us apart, socializing biological responsibility waste. Earned the money into that that type of nature, of providing the feminist movement looked at them, that we earn more money once we had children and so therefore,

must be the oppressor like those like the bourgeoisie of Marxism and women must be the oppressed soon have two things happening simultaneously: disbelief that the are wanting to be equally involved with the children. Then, secondly, men having no idea. Why they have value third men who have very few men that did study the value of being a father and how important it was to children. Didn't speak up about it women can hear what men don't say, so it we had world they were. Women were shared, the burden of bread winning No one was even interested in asking the question about whether men could share the burden from women of of of early. Providing equally for the family. And women work even interested in that, because there is so focused on their freedom, all men as the oppressor and so

was no space to articulate the are you a father to men in this case so well, you know your terminology is interesting to because you're, attributing the desire of the women who were pushing against what you were saying, say your attributing not to a desire to freedom. But it seems to me that you could easily use irresponsibility as terminology there. You know because freed free, while freedom without concern for the medium to long term consequences of your actions, especially when you're bringing in when you dealing with minors when you're dealing with children. That's not freedom, that's your responsibility! That is absolutely irresponsibility, and that is where we as a society have failed to come in and say no first of all, whenever their sex with that is a woman winds, custody, for example, whenever eaters ex wins both sexes lose and it's worse than that,

neither whenever either sex wins both sexes loose and in the case of a fairly the children, lose enormously, and we also need to survive, understand exactly what is it that we need to show in doing so much better when they have fathers involved. I was I start to researching and I ended up, as you know, with the boy crisis ended up with more than seventy different ways that when children have there father involved in it about an equal way that they do so much better Well, I would be a lovely thing if you could detail out some of that now and then we'll go back to the the the political ideological story here, but but see one of the things that happened in Ontario recently as that we ve arc. Our government has introduced Distillation that is predicated on the eye that all families are equal and the

idea behind that, you could argue is laudable. I wouldn't argue that, but you could argue it that you know people have a variety of ways of solving the problem of having children and that there is a variety of viable solution to that problem and that no one family organizational type should be privileged above the others. I mean, I suppose, with the exception of multi partner marriages, which we we still don't approve of. Let's say the problem without, as far as I can tell you is that it does from the research that the nuclear family is the smallest smallest viable unit, which is not to say that there aren't single mothers or single fathers who do an admirable job under trying conditions but part of the problem. This is a deep problem is that whenever you

Never you pause something as a value, so you might say what we want intact: families, mother and father. That's that that's the value were heading for, because that seems to be best for the child. Then you produce a rank order of accordance with that and the people who aren't in accordance with that value. You can easily make a case that they are being discriminated against and weren't situation in our society now where even if the discrimination occurs, let's say because of the pursuit of an admirable value, its regarded as prejudicial, and I think that's fed by that underlying hypothesis that was anti nuclear family- that any sort of hierarchical structure part of the tyrannical patriarchy it something like that, it's running underneath it so anyways. Let's review, if you would be very helpful, I think for everyone the many ways that its necessary for children to have fathers. Why that's better and and perhaps also offers for society as well, not just for children,

Absolutely children that have a lot about equal are more than equal. Father involvement have a number of things. In communist rule- and obviously this reversal of this in that area- that everyone is. This is this pattern, but the first is: there are far more likely to happen, spoken gratification at all, elaborate on that a little bit more husband. Gratification is probably the single most important quality to becoming a successful and becoming successful, especially being imposed. And in a job that has some meaning, for you is one of the most important ingredients in happiness and a sense of purpose and a sense of motivation and sensibilities. You get up in the morning and so on. In a little while be happy just traced back how there was born. Gratification happens more when you have a father. Yeah is only interested in hearing about up six seconds

this form of children that have an equal matter. Father involvement are far less likely to be depressed. There, far less more likely to be so. And not aggressive, which is something do you think of men is being aggressive, but actually the children, both girls and boys, whose these are involved are far more likely to understand the distinction between being assertive and being aggressive and choose assertiveness boys at other surprising one for me I'm doing the research was finding that boys Girls who are raised with about an equal amount of father involvement are far more likely to be empathetic, because I always of empathy coming predominantly from moms and I'd, be happy to explain in a bit why, It does come more from Mars, but why the outcome for the child is not more empathy. The outcome for the child is less today so that later,

sure are far more likely, both boys and girls, who drop out of school. If there is, in fact our father involvement, more likely when, when a winner relationship breaks up a child that has not had significant father involvement, is much more likely to be depressed and be withdrawn and be feel alienated, far more likely to be addicted to video games, far more likely to be addicted, to be your porn, how far less more likely have few social skills. Few emotional skills to do worse in every act. MC area, but especially in reading and writing, which are the two biggest predictors a success. Far more likely to have a lower sperm counts have and here's an amazing thing. I just discovered toward the end of the resource for the boy crisis eyes I saw in PDF, a magazine in that children who buy age of nine. Don't have a significant amount of father involvement, both girl

in boys were likely to have shorter. Tell him years in his most of us know. The tell him years are pivotal in predicting life expect. See so ways in girls, the average shorter tell him here for a nine year old boy or girl without Father involvement, was fourteen percent of sideways at the age of fourteen percent shorter. But the boys Helen ears were then again forty percent shorter than the girls. So here this was predicting about a fourteen percent shorter life expectancy for the average child with if other involvement by the age of nine already and yet the boys. Suffering more. So the two things fascinated me: there is all the things like:

dropping out of school, and things like that. I asked myself alone. Maybe this is because boys with father involvement, I'm just have better at our neighbourhood son. There, the fathers earn more, the families are more. Maybe it's a matter of poverty versus not poverty. So I started looking at Peter boys and girls growing up in any good quote: good neighbourhood with cold good schools and comparing them with boys and girls growing up in poor neighborhoods in poor schools, and found that the that boys and girls growth in good neighbourhood, with poor schools that did not have significant father involvement did about the same as boys and girls are growing up in poor neighborhoods with poor schools that did her father involvement that Father involvement was really is as good a predictor of six as far as the quality of the school system, the party, the neighbourhood and the Socio economic class and this- which led to the open to the psychologist

gathering together behind people like worship, one hundred cycle, just and researchers saying now. This is not a correlation. The involvement of father. This is not a matter of socio economic issues This is a matter of actual far there's fathers, fathers involvement, especially the biological fathers involvement, actually makes a significant difference. We have been wrong about the assumption that this would probably just a correlation. So them a more. I looked the more I found every nightmare of a pirate, she being so increased. When there was not a significant amount of father about the end I was seeing eye was dating between before I met It leaves the woman used met just before we got on before we got married and fourteen years ago. Stating a number of women. Almost every woman had was a single mother, and these a single woman was working her rear off to bed, her life.

Every woman used the word overwhelmed by the way she felt every most every woman said well I'd like my garden, the dad involved, but but when But I started listening to the back of the women and then listening to men who had won to be more involved with their children and listening to what the differences or between what let the net, what made the men feel not wanted. What made dimension excluded, and why, the women's felt that they needed to know the men involved- and I saw this entire set of misunderstandings here and, if I hope the boy crisis does anything is just sort of explain you'll hear other ten major things that dad's do that sort of annoy women or make women feel that they are not protecting their children adequately? which, when they understand the purpose of these things away, dad's get their homework done enough to our. Stimulating moms the purpose of these things,

that will realise that the big these are necessary ingredients in a child's light case. Oh that's a good! That's a good place to go next, so you laid out a whole flew of reasons I slew of consequences of fatherless and will return back to the causal relationship between what men do and these beneficial outcomes. But if you can, the one now to tell us what it is that men are doing at a micro level, then we could return to the causal link between now and the positive outcomes, and you said, though, those also caused some contention in the household. Yes, you gotta give one example, for example, be a father, rough housing with the kids, and the moms looking over and saying, looking askance and Ok, when should I interfere, wench may not interfere and the mom saying yourself, Jimmy we're peacekeeping

away from the either credenza they are paid to get away from the coast because they create their head there. Why don't you wait hubby to tomorrow You can take this outside. I feel much safer, the kids and then mother is hesitating to not be controlling and yet at the same time, she's feeling she has to monitor the host and his Bela's monitor the husband with the kids and she's feeling. Back remind like eyes and soon later, there's gonna be a myth that there's gonna be an accident here and I'm gonna be upset with myself for not being stricter. Other hand? The kid seemed beheading fines. Why should let things go? Well, you know, there's a there's. A cycle biologist named yacht banks have who is one of the world's great biological psychologists and he studied rough and tumble play in in animals, so rats, for example, of a huge part of that. The socialists haitian process that

key to the development of the prefrontal cortex and juvenile male routes in particular, emerges and matures as a consequence of rough and tumble, play and one of them amazing things that banks have discovered it, and this truly is an amazing thing. Is that if you, if you care to rats together and then let them play repeated bout the big rat will dominate the little round to begin with in the first bout, but if the big rat doesn't let the little rat win about thirty percent of the, I'm in repeated play about than the little rat won't play anymore so you get an emergent morality in emergent plays. Entered morality, even among rats as a consequence of rough and tumble play and that roughened double. I did a fair bit. Research on rough and tumble play about. Oh it's probably twenty years ago now, fifteen years ago, anyways- and it's really quite clear- that rough and tumble play helps children parameters, their bodies so that they can

how they extend and and and also what limits, the reason. The use of physical interactions with another person what's fun, what's provocative, what's pushing it too far? What's painful and of course, kids, love rough and tumble play as well, there they're just absolutely starving for it and we ve squeezed out of the kindergartens, the nursery schools, the elementary schools, the junior high schools. All of that, and for

and forbid, and what banks have also found was that if you deprived juvenile roots of the opportunity to engage in active rough and tumble play that they showed symptoms that were broadly analogous to those of attention, deficit, disorder, inhuman boys, and that you could also treat that with riddle in the same way in rats as you could with boys. So this that rough and tumble place, you know what you might think too. The question is, one question is: why might a mother be distrustful of the rough and tumble play episode, and some of that might be sensitivity. Rip with regards to the kids, but huge part of that also is trust on her trust. With regards to the father, no cause, it's ramp, anxious and noisy, and if she trusts, let's say that that active masculinity that plays rough then show.

Away and let the fun happen. But if there's distrust running through the family, then then show stand between the kids and the father, and then he won't get to involve themselves in that way and then he'll turn off and I've seen that happened. Many many families, ok, so there's rough and tumble play that's a big. What? What else is what else you see me, let me take their the evolution of her rough and tumble play goes, and only the dimensions of work or with the slippery slope that leads to sell the father the what the man It would mean that among the dead now is that this rough and tumble play leads to the types of things that you just mentioned, which are also evident in new and elephants and so on. But it also leads to the distinction between a child being able to distinguish between being asserted versus aggressive, So the said the kid starts, for example, maybe I'll kicking the dad in the wrong place. Her poking the dead in the eyes pointed the here dad says I'm swedish you can take, you can fake, I contacted the left and then move

the right to win in those wrestling match or you can. And you can do this- isn't this. But you can't do these things and if you do do these things will stop the rough housing. Here I saw their fathers and really important issue. There are two things there. So imagine that margin that a rough and tumble bout is like a doubts, ok, it and the point of the dance so that both people are having a good time. Well, happening because otherwise it's not play right and then, as soon as either party is no longer having a good time. You ve actually snapped out of the cycle biological function of the play circuit. So basically what you're telling the truth. By putting those rules on is, we can interact physically within a very limited set of parameters, and you, what you have to learn to do is to be sophist statistic The player within that set of parameters- and you want to learn how to push the boundaries right, because the most fun rough and tumble play

is right on the edge between assertiveness and aggression. So and you can see kids like I used to work and daycare centers when I was a kid when I was eighteen, nineteen and the kids would line up too rough and tumble play maybe because that was still allowable than they were so desperate for it. It was just ridiculous and- I can really tell the difference between the kid to engage in that sort of play and the ones that happened and the ones that hadn't were painfully awkward they would hurt themselves and you, when you wrestle with him, they put their thumb in your ire and they would cry often to when they got surprised but not hurt. You know because they couldn't tell the difference between just being started and being hurt, and so they were fragile and that also made them not fun to play with, and the thing that so interesting about. That too, is the piazza talked about this. When he talked about the development of children is that you know the more sophisticated pretend play and then sophisticated cognitive play that emerges

between five and seven and then with a cog in the play older than that is that unless you have underlying psychomotor embodied dance down. You don't get to really proceed in a sophisticated way to those higher levels of play, because other people don't want to play with you so that with the rough and tumble play, the importance of that can hardly be over so absent and in the framework here is that when you set up a system where you said Men are part of the patriarchy there'd there there their desires how many women and make rules developed had been at the expense of men at the expense of women. You have a framework an emotional setting which does not is not conducive to then saying here's my value or women saying. Let me see what the checks and balances of parenting is. That leads to the best of you coming out. The best me coming out, All of that has said we skipped over an

and sense of father knows best to Father knows less ends and weep, and so the that the process will be sharing in a moment of what rough housing leads to an end. The slippery slope that happens when it doesn't happen is, is what has not even been nurse. As a possibility to be articulated in this culture. It was tat. I also think too. You know that if you have a partner who hasn't been played with, then that partner can't tell the difference between boisterous ramp, unctuousness and aggression, and if there is a hypothesis about domination and the patriarchy running its course, underneath that then there's gonna be conceptual, can vision about the physical interactions that have the appearance of submission and dominance, because that's part of the rough housing play routine Skynet that that is going to

be viewed through a lens of tyrannical interaction, rather than just good fun, and I mean you can tell the difference, because if the kids are wrong, kumble playing they're, unbelievably enthusiastic about it and engaged at laughing and giggling and like bill play right to the point of exhaustion because they need if they need it so much, but that's a hard thing to observe from the outside. If you accustomed to that and if you dont have a framework of of men having and dad's having a value to begin with. Absolutely no. So here's here's, maybe what what might be helpful for a mom to understand that the rough and tumble point play. We now know helps children distinguish between being asserted and aggressive, but a number of other things off

also happened during that play, which is that is a point that has created between the Father and the child and in almost every enduing expert witness works to help children have both parents have to divorce. I've observe more than fifty families and use your father, interacting with it with the children and in almost every day every case, actually, I truly believe that I have seen this is this fund is used by the Father to say things like ok, we ve Having now tell me what you get homer turn, you get your tourism. You get already forbade brushed his teeth. Brush ends the bed. Time is now hawk. Whenever you get, the old John will have between the time you get it on, and the time of nine o clock order for you to have some more fun either through a thousand or reading my favorites you'd favours story. What have you prefer your choice, while you know with with bank sapsworth too, he found that the little rots the rats

The work to enter a play arena because, because play you think play is a so picks up established very, very clearly that there is a primary play circuit in mammals. It's a separate cycle, biological circuit. It's not exploration, it's a whole different motivation dr, but that the act but activity in that circuit is intrinsically pleasurable and part of that appears to be because it so key to proper socialization that it it it's regard by my children and by social mammals as intrinsically valuable, and so it makes perfect sense that that can be used as a source of primary reward, and I think your comments about the the man and the kids binding themselves together through play is also really report. Is one of the things that I do with young man who you know. I think young men tend to be somewhat alienated from infants who were under about now

months or because they are not really equipped to know what the hell to do with them. I mean they can learn and they can be good at it. But it's not their domain of natural expertise, but once a kid hits about nine months and starts to be able to imitate and to pound and too and to play and to respond to gentle teasing, like that's a perfect time for their father to swoop, in very helpful for a mother by the way who wants to have another chance, and to start really cementing a relationship that, based on that interesting combination of of high energy fun, plus the discipline and interactions that are necessary as a precursor to that end. If you interfere with that, then you stop the farther from being able to form that products from liking is kids. Really. You know, because that's how the liking comes about is, is through play, and so its crucial is crucial significance, absolutely

Thank you is that the additional framework that your placing on this is really deepening the own understanding of it, as well as called out effective, neuroscience written by yeah. Thanks up it's on my really list on my website and I recommend our biggest ill. He lays out the findings from the animal literature on them. I'm a replace. It's really. You should have won the Nobel Prize, for I mean discovering entirely new motivational system in the brain is a major major contribution and to also the other thing that he did, that was so cool and Sort of reminded me of Jean Pierre Jays work a little bit. Is he made a very strong case that out of play emerges an ethic, and you know That's why I was so interested when you mentioned that interactions with Father actually increase empathy, because you know if someone has empathy for you, that means that mean that can lead to a certain kind of narcissism right, because you're, always the centre of attack

you're, not empathic, unless you learn to that you're, not any more important than the next person, particularly the person, the you happen to be playing with. So ok. So, let's continue with with what fathers are doing as yet. Yeah, so in the rough housing? What happens is the body that is created by the dad alone, the dared to say you ve got here is welcome The rough housing, if you get a deal between eight, thirty, nine, if you, if you have everything done, but so that the child lorries postpone gratification from doing the, what loves to do right then, and there that is being a rough house with and deal with what it has to deal with before it gets more about what it needs and so that the Basel that's interesting. So you, you actually think

I wonder if there's been any any sheep, we don't know much about the origin of the trade conscientiousness, which is, at least in part, the ability to delay gratification, and it is after intelligence. It's the best, predictor of long term life success, especially in managerial administrative jobs and algorithmic jobs. It it's not associated with creativity, but that's. That's aside So you're hypothesis, is that the primary way men are socializing now this by using work to play, as are as I as a bridge. Yes, it did at the play, creates a boy and so a lot of the problem is when, when moms often taught you say you have to do this. You have to do that. Does she have to do that. The mother is often experienced by the child is suddenly disciplinarian, whose always making him or her do things There's a seeds of rebellion start to occur, a sort of like how much it might get it, be myself how much When you do what man dies, you I wanna be Mama's boy or something that have largely been note you just what it feels like,

being pushed down by all the rules but with dad that is, our moms, who rough house with the children a bomb is created and from there and you want to return to that that connection. So you it's like a child going on it, a roller coaster, were, you noted, an enormous amount of safety. We also of excitement. Also an enormous amount of safety, and so are you trust the daddy, combined that both you want to return to that see, you're willing to focus I'm getting done. What you need to do your homework, your charger brush the t buy whatever in order to get what you want to do, which is at the mercy of postponing gratification. But now, let's take a slippery slope when this doesn't happen. So let me, let me just add one more thing to that- the thing that so cool about that is that you have also provided a really intelligent piece of parenting. Advice for for fathers, slight, because you're hot so let's say Bf Skinner, who is the famous animal behavior, is demonstrated quite clearly that

you could train animals with reward more effectively than with threat or punishment. Now, threat or punishment is necessary, but obviously we wouldn't have biological systems observing those emotions if they weren't necessary, but but reward is harder to use because you have to be much more attentive and and intervene when something good habits, and so you really have to be watching. But Europe I bought this is here, is look fathers spend a bunch of time playing with your kids and having is much fun, as you can with because I formulating that born. You can use that as a as the source of reward that will be appreciated by the child with regards to disciplinary strategies. So it's it's it's a twofold victory. One is its fun and you get to like your kids and and have a good time with them. But the second is you have a very positive means of disciplining them in the best sense, encouraging them and disciplining, so that Scots a really useful

thing to know practically so deepening the trust to the kids, like that, like you're playing in your right on the edge it you were talking about by there's dad to make sure that the fund is in too hard for you for him, for your sister, and so on, and so that that's all happening at this in time, no one, the right, that's embodied! You could see that two ways: that's embodied trust. So if you toss a little kid up in the air and catch them, I mean it's very exciting to them both being tossed up because of the threat, but then the relief that occurs because of the safety of its put in their. So it's not abstract, it's really demonstrated and there's a dead tossing a child up in and then in fact mean The trial could end quote, and the child the best

Worm is like oh yeah. I was mister you're gonna catch me, but you also recognise yes without shows that that shows that things can happen. That aren't entirely what you predict, but within the confines of a trusting relationship that still ok and then you can also imagined effect if the dad is wrestling with more than one kid. At the same time, then also acting as just referee right so and it then the kids learn how to be judicious in the distribution of attention. They learn how to play fair. They learn how everybody, how everybody can have a try and everybody wins at the same time, and so in that funding is what is part of what creates just everything you just said is part of what leads the child to have empathy, training and the empathy

reading came from no. You were too rough on your sister there. If you again, you can't be that rough. Oh, oh, you still continue to being that rough. Ok, let's no more play! That's right! Play stops when everyone isn't having fun What, when, when my kids were little, we had this couch. That was a section when six pieces, and so we could put the couch facing each other, and then we put up the the the backs all the way. It's always like a little wrestling rain, and so then I would take the kids in there and wrestle them half to death, you know, but but what The things I used to do was if one of the kids was rough with the other and made them cry. Then I noticed that the kid who made the other kid cry wouldn't look at the crime, kid. They look away and avoid, and so I always used to say no, no, no, you look. You look and you see what happened, because that that triggers that,

bodied empathy, and then you can easily have a conversation and say: look you know is that how you want the game to go or do you want everybody to have fun, and the thing is once the kid actually looks, then they ve got rake as they can't escape from that empathic identification, and so yeah when the child doesn't have. That is that we have all this data now, these seventy different areas where children, he's so much worse when they don't have a father involvement. So, let's look at the next stage of that went, win win that father doesn't not do this rotten. Having ended as just one example of many, and does not isn't not enforcing boundaries of the child. Doesn't learning to have it postponed ratification, so we have hard data on this than children grew. Showing raise predominantly by dad's only fifteen percent likely to have ADHD. Raise profoundly by mines. Are thirty percent likely to have ADHD? So if we look at what we just talked about

children there are raised by the dad's are learning that they have to postpone that gratification in order to get the reward that they want. Now you take that capacity to postpone gratification school the child without postpone gratification. Oh assigned a homework assignment. Doesnt really feel is oftentimes distracted by a text has come in distracted by The opportunity to play video games is shocked by what is its exchange note without the kid is distracted, distracted, his church destroy Europe of industry. The thing about this, there is no need to explain ADHD. What there is a need to do is to explain why every kid doesn't have it, and the answer is. The answer that you just laid out is that some kids learn how to control their distraught, like distract ability doesn't require next,

nation, because people are distracted by what's immediately rewarding and that doesn't require it's like addiction. Actually, addiction doesn't require explanation either. What requires explanation is the development of the resources that allow you to withstand addictive pressures the face of the fact that there are always they're everywhere and their powerful. So it's it's its development of control. That's that's really the curious issue and I've never, this I've never heard anyone make this connection between the use of play as a right. Lord, and that delay of gratification, that's a very, very interesting idea, that's very interesting and and Let me take it and also further from me, so when this delayed gratification happening and does not happen. And then the boy is enable finish homework he starts began beginning to, machine to himself or, if he's been athletic and his parents believe there's really gonna, be helpful to the child, have beautiful dreams

you wanna be an mba player in your tall any new year. You continue practice you can be it in the end, the NBA player and you can have your dreams, but the post he doesn't have to postpone gratification, so cannot do other than boring repetition. It comes with all success, including other being an olympic star or don't be. A player anything else, I'm playing the piano are learning to read or greater. It was certainly the violin, and so you re so anything it is his dream. The bigger the dream bigger the disappointment and is not just disappointment that he fears here what happened to his parents, but also the fitness density says. He Did you one thing in school here his pet? His teachers is years are not respecting. It was much he he cabotage leaders aren't going first in ten, a concussion again to him. They got doing into somebody else at first then. Do it again here

and so the boy is beginning to feel shape, your will. You think you think shaped. Look here here is the precondition for shame. So let's say that you are attracted by goal naturally in meat, or maybe that scaffold it by your parents. Maybe it scaffolding by your peers, but it's something that your naturally turning Europe towards grips you in some sense again and will assume that it's a difficult goal, and so, there's an ethic that emerges out of that, which is that, if that goal is valuable and its difficult, then there's sacrifices that have to be made delays of gratification that have to be implemented. In order for you to be worthy to attain that goal. Ok, that's all part of the game. If you think about it as a game. Well then, there, You observe yourself unable to play the rules of the game play by the rules. Then, how can you not have any? How can you not suffer shame and self contempt, because you ve already adopted in ethical framework which

This is worth attaining and if you observe in yourself, then the inability to attain it, because you are constantly being distracted, then you're you're, going to have contempt for yourself. And then the way out of that. This is something I learned from nature. Here's the terrible thing about God, because that's a great pathway denial is because, let's say you pause it four goals in succession, the youth, invaluable, and then you observe yourself unable to discipline yourself to attain the goals while the most after for successive failures, it's like Homer Simpson, said the bark he said to Bart. You tried and you failed, and then you tried and you failed again. What did you learn and by an homer says, to Bart the conclusion is: never try

and so if you fail a few times at attaining something of importance, because you see that you have no discipline, then the logical response to that is too. CS positing goals. Absolutely and that's it. That's exactly what happens, and but we have three technology set of a perfect escape escaped. His into video games where you can identify with a hero- and you can lose The game is often as you wish you with nobody noticing and then You begin to get better with certain. It was certain manipulations. You can play that game was certain types of people and an increase year, you're up a bit skill set it at the game, but you're, not

urge able to translate that into everyday life were ill, and so you start becoming addicted to that game, which is we know which are designed to increase your dopamine without having to actually achieve any well the thing about the games. That's that's different. Like the video games, what's different, so a game for a little kid has to be immediately rewarding. That's why rough and tumble play works, for example, has to be immediately rewarding and then the game shades into real lights, but as the game shades into real life, what happens is the rewards are deferred and you get more and more disciplined at not being a media. They rewarded like when you're learning, to read or play the piano for the long term goal. The thing about video games is that they do require the development of skill, but Dick that, but the immediate reward is built in along with the delayed reward because otherwise

the game wouldn't be fun for someone who's learning, and so the problem is that a lot of real life games aren't necessarily fun. Well, you're learning them, because you have to attain a certain level of mastery, and that requires discipline. That's also what's wrong with the idea that children can just learning in keeping with what their spontaneously interested in is like. There's some truth in that, because why not file follow a child's interests, but the problem is that many highly skilled endeavours, virtually any endeavour that it's going to be of economic or productive utility requires a apprenticeship where there is a lot. Grinding. There's a lot of just disciplinary did disciplined repetition, and so ok, well all right so baby and then one more dimension. That is it that, as the boy, two boy girl age, if he's had her if he begins to sensitive heterosexual- and he knew

this is it? The girls are far more interested in going out with a quarterbacks for the student body president's or the the performer type boys that our objective in the school system in life in general, as so, he begins to start with joy and fearing that he can attract those girls, especially the ones who most biologically addicted to a beautiful ones. The Chilean he starts withdrawing it horror and worn is a huge issue, but the poor basically as is steamer, is is based on the dopamine increasing with each used stimulus, and so as he gets addicted to that. I mean he begins to get addicted, to only being able to be stimulated when the risk taking is higher and higher profile. So, finally, he succeeds in one girl, woman being able to come over to his house in be sexual with her, but he's so uneasy.

To be turned on just by the mere, maybe light touch of a hand or turned on by just being fascinated by what she sang in the interaction or some combination of the drama of being with her combined with. A bit of touch he so used to a huge amount of stimulus to that occurs, unease and when he gets to be interesting for a little bit, she said he says good. How can you be this way? Can you do this? Can you act his way and she feel like just some piece of object that is being traded in for the poor and even she guessed it with him withdraws and he begins to say you are already convinced me? I m is worthless, as I thought I was, and the we think that will give me satisfaction is back to the porn and what became little bit of an addiction becomes more of an addiction, even as is also becoming simultaneously frequently addicted to the video games. At the same time, and so all of this is the slippery slope from the

rough housing that the Father is not able to articulate to the mother about the value of that combined with the trusted you integrating with that combined with the lack of post the bond, combined with be postponed, gratification being taught and then with a postscript but postponed ratification is not all slippery slope, down the hill, to shame soft discuss and a fear that, if that, if he tries anything, he just me prove to himself and everybody around him that he's one failure and the degree to which he articulates the desire to try Something is the announcement publicly to a group of people that he's really pretty much going to say today, I'm going to try this and tomorrow is going to be a failure until he, until he normally shame and worst case scenarios. This can lead to such depression that it creates a desire to commit suicide.

And the very worst case scenarios. It's a belief. I believe we always be seen. Schools shooter will that Bruce resentment, absolutely man that Bruce resentment and anger like nothing else- and an who think every seven and anger about who the people have rejected him. Who is the classmates is the teachers? Nobody appreciates that sweet, sensitive the inside of him and see and seize him well items angry at that and one day I'll, just one. I have a desperate need to get their attention and say I count a matter pay attention to me and and worst case scenarios, only a very small percentage, but worst case scenarios. You can understand the school, should it shooting emerging from their offer. Every for every candy goes and shoots up a school there's, a thousand who were fantasizing in a direction that headed that way. You know that and some other

at the beginning of that something like, while I'm very angry and people, because they don't see the value in me. But if they get to the point, where they're doing something like fantasy extreme violence, there so far pass that even they think they ve developed a real hatred. Everything and wish to see it obliterated and- and that's you know, that's while obviously that's the most terrible of the terrible outcomes that might be generated. Ok, so you talked about. You talked about rough and tumble plan delay of gratification. You tied empathy into that. What we are there other cardinal things that you're seeing fathers do cause that's pretty early on in life right, so you're, looking at the interaction with kids, there between say a year old and five six years old, seven years old, something like that. What are you? What else? Do you see happening with fathers, both at the early stages and then also later on his another important thing? This is the concept of hang out time, never for a mom. Listening to this, who has a daughter

We now know that children who daughters, who, a significant amount of hang our time with, with that, with your dad that creates more psychological centred this than any other single phenomenon. With with boys is also very important. So, for example, let's say you anymore situation and a father has the child's for a short period of time, let's say undecided Saturday and he pixies child up from a soccer and says to say Josh Josh, how the game go and look at the kid is more like the other boys, especially as more like I say, okay It was ok, but what Tommy more just it was just okay, dad and so, but then, if he is so if at that time, the dad has to drop the boy off to to to moms, because at the end of the visitation time

there's nothing that happens beyond their right well in the boy is gonna, be no people, kids in particular. I think I'll though it also happens with couples, is that you know one of the things that you due to the person that your with to test, if they care, is to be somewhat withholding of information that might be relevant to see to what degree you'll be pursued because you know You asked me whether I ve done something how it went. One of the things I'm gonna want to know is: do you really care You're, my father, I'm really going to want to know that, and so one ways, I can I can gauge that is by asking you, but that that's. That assumes that your answer is going to be reflective of your actual being and there's no reason to assume that a better way of doing it is for me to be a little bit. Withholding and little bit reserve

don't because then I can see in Oregon. Pope me a bit because that's a fun thing to do. If you can t see, you can say, look kid. You know hokum in the chest. A few times is like loosen up and to me in own- usually if you do that with a kid, even an adolescent, they'll, laugh and in all kind of push, and the wind goal dad, but they are happy to have that additional prodding right to bring them out of their shell and it's a demonstration that the kid actually cares- and you do need time for that. So the kid he's done well or she's done well, is very happy say ah, I scored Threeg was today, that's more than had ever been scored in the history of our school. Is that incredible? No problem, though, share that right away, but the reason for the hesitation on saying something that their ashamed of, like I have one further, was saying that with the boy came home and he had been the goal the week before

but the following week. He was not chosen to go away and he couldn't understand why, and so that he's hesitate to say so for his dad, because he doesn't want the dared to sit at either lecture him or disapprove of him would be disappointed in him or be yes it. If I feel like that's, not my son, I want, Sunday scored the goals he answered. With all those fears? The child, especially the boy when it comes to performance, will keep any failure to perform effectively to himself. But now, if the dad drops the child off at moms never get sorted through. If the dad has hang our ties with the children but say they're doing homework, there in tat. Maybe is watching tv doing homework, and then they appear about the same. I'm getting something from the refrigerator and they have a little discussion about what he wants for dinner and they and the debt asks him to help me?

dinner with them, rather than just didn't, do it had taken a responsibility which does tend to do. They asked the children to be helpful with a dinner making in preparing not to serve them, and so in that process of the child chopping up stuff, doing that it boy thing the child will tend to say your dad I was only last week, but I wasn't golly this week. What's that about, and the debt and what the fire and the child might say that to the mom even more quickly, but the child's expect nations with the man is the man give the child assurance that your answer Sweden, no problem you're Fine, you're, wonderful, you're, a very good gully, maybe the coachman to give the others the other kids a chance because you're so good, etc, etc, whereas expect from data bidding confrontational, more questioning, was one of the things I have noticed in talking to my clinical clients about their intimate relationships. Is I've been trying to do

rules of thumb, for minimal, necessary interaction, time to maintain a relationship and with couples. I've observed that they need like one or two sessions of intimate time together a week at minimum, something like that or things start to go south but they also need, as far as I've been able to tell about ninety minutes of community. Some time across the single week just to keep each other, updated in relationship to their stories and so to two questions. One is have some sense of how you would characterize hang out time and how the red, how much of it there needs to be in order to not the low go below you know, a dangerous minimum and then the other thing I'd like to pick up on his you had talked a little bit about the more confrontational approach than a father might take wind, discussing a failure or any

adequacy or something like that on the part of the child, and so I wanted to laid something that I've learned about talking to. Majority male audiences in the last year and a half two years about responsibility in discipline and all of that see, you might think calling someone on their failure is harsh and judge mental Buddy, and it is in a sense, but it's not harsh and judge mental about their potential, it? Also, if your kid comes to you and says you know, I screwed up and here's what I did. I did go so well and use. That's: ok, you're, wonderful kid, then the kids stuck in a bind because They're not feeling so wonderful and they failed, but you say: well, look, you know you're. That was stupid, like what the hell is wrong with you, Here's what you could do like you're, better than that man get it together a little bit. Let's come up with some strategy so that you can figure out how never gonna happen to you again, and so, instead of putting your faith in,

The child is right now, which I would say in some senses the harp is the hallmark of impulsive empathy. You put your faith and who the child could be and that's encouragement and I would say in in circumstances of failure especially where the child is motivated to try again, encouragement beats it. It beats impasse. Of empathy hands down as a mark of faith HU, the child might be yet yes and it takes a while for the child to both reveal its vulnerability and also to have a fate. The plea that the parent that that the child tends to open up like a flower to the great did that a greater, she'd been wet when Al Sheer. He realizes that the security that the fathers creating by being with them in talking the problem through who is there no ideal setting

their whose wiser and mother, whose wise I will not give a solution right away, will ask the kid something like gun, So we have wanted. You observe, what's your best gas as to what happened last week, for us is this week. What do you think was the judges? It wasn't. The coaches invest intent and let the end oftentimes inside of the child. Is a willingness or as a sensor? Probably what? Really? happen, but fear of set of acknowledging it to himself or herself and especially acknowledging it to any one else, because the person who they might have acknowledged the two will not have respect for them and so be able to serve. You have the hang out time facilities enough time to feel both that large basket that those large arms of security and nurturing surrounding him or her the fact that the fund is not going to give up on time with me I'll be here. For me,

and I can then then, when the father of the mother facilitates the exploration incited himself about what the problem might deals, lets him help in it in our Carl Rogers at the other rosaria, and have a sense did you find out the part of him? That already knows the answer, then the child is experiencing both respect, the willingness to be confronted by? If I don't have the answer sight of me, my father will tell me the truth about what I might be needed to do next and he'll have an end that telling me the truth about what he needs to do. Next is his way of respecting me without even saying he's, respecting made, because he wouldn't be confronting me with the truth. If he didn't respect make young and more specifically, not not so not even more specifically than me, if he didn't respect my intrinsic

ability to overcome obstacles and to grow right, which is the best. The best answer to someone who says I have a problem is well. I have faith in. You can overcome that right, not you don't have a problem more that you're. Ok, the way you are it's like near yeah, that's a problem man, but you know, and then you know, there's another thing that you're talking about that very much in keeping with, I would say, standard but relatively deep political wisdom, which is that people are much more likely to follow a set of injunctions if they generate them themselves and so that some really interesting experiences with this programme. We design design called the Future authoring programme and it helps people come up with a life planned, so they have to craft a vision. For their operations across the six or seven basic dimensions of life? Like intimate relationships and family and career actions and education and resistance to temptation, drugs and alcohol care of mental and physical health, and so on those fundamental dimension,

use of productive use of time outside of work to ask themselves what they would want if they could have what they wanted to need along. Those two means three to five years down the road to craft a vision you stole out on that array. Wants and desires, and also to write a counter vision, which is, Could you be if you allow yourself to fail catastrophically where, where what might that look like and three to five years and then to produce a plan and its head marketable affects particular now, young men are doing worse than young women in academic environments, so the programme it seemed to have as much effect for young women. But that might be because there are already doing better, but it has a lolloping effect on young men, in fact, for voting, occasional junior college settings. Our latest piece of data which was generated was published last year

showed that we can reduce drop out among young man, especially aimless ones, who have done very well in high school. We could drop their drop out rate, fifty percent and so and one of the things I have observed about young men and this might be because their more disagreeable and confrontational than young women is that unless have formulated their own plan. There are unlikely to do something so when you're talking, I think this is Her with with with young women as well. You want to talk to them and say will look what what are you think about what happened and how we are going to get out of it, which is an excellent question because it says to the job. You can think about what happened and be accurate and you can think of a way out of it and that's encouragement right and that's what you want is to you: don't want to protect or shelter your child. You want to encourage them. So that collaborative problem solving is a great way to do that- absolutely right

then- and I've seen this over and over again, and certainly the data that I gathered for the boy crisis very much harm shows that as well he said the hang out. I was part of what helps to do that, but also be that yet hit the checks and balances of power. Thing is so I'm pivotal for mothers and fathers understands and right along the lines of what you're talking about. Is is so mother and father, let's say: have the child come home in and from school and say of its end Charles, as you know, MRS Myers, she hates me she hates me, I can't I can't be okay and school and in the charter and secular third grade a mother's, soon reaction will tend to be more likely to be

they like all sweetie. Let me hear more elements. Childs complains more about how much MRS Myerst AIDS, the child, the man will tend to come up with a solution like. Let me talk to wait till next week on Monday I'll talk to make an appointment with the principal and we'll talk about seeing whether you can get into a different class. The MRS Myers downwards. Dad's will tend to say to a greater degree of sweetie in life. You have to learn to get along with people who can get along with you. What do you think is is making Missus Myers upset about and the child may or may not be revealing, and so the child will say. What do you want me to

MRS Myers about it. No, no! No! No! No answer well well. I talked with MRS Myers about it. What do you think? This is why I would say, and then the child, under the threat of possibly the dad talking, are the man fuck. You and MRS buyers will begin to say what a little bit of what MRS Myers feels and then and then negotiate a an opportunity to talk to Missus Myers and then bring MRS Myers and the child together have a discussion together and so to see whether the child in MRS Myers can work out an understanding where the child begins to understand. No, it is not that MRS Myers, inherently unaids, hates Jimmy. It is that there is something else going on here and so the result of working all that

room is a way of facilitating the child to discover its own solutions to a problem talking it rather than getting a solution, rather than being enabled by the by the system, to end by the parent, who will eventually disappear from the child's life or worse. Yet not there. Here for which I was late and then sold, and so these these are about oftentimes, the mom says: yeah, the child is having a problem, why are you being so insensitive? What are you blaming you Jimmy for for creating this problems? He's he's telling you that not only does this is Myers hate him, but he also she at other kids hate. Mrs Myers is well, and so is not Jimmy's fall. Did I use it, and so the man will feel that is being insensitive. Would, in fact that is being differently sensitive

and instead of long term, postpone gratification sensitive year. One! That's that's the thing in that. That's a lot colder, a virtue. You know, because they also sounds very much like its grounded in these cycle: biological at least partially cycle biological differences between and women, so women are higher and negative emotion and more empathic, and that's that short term empathy, and so that's perfectly in keeping with the approach that you just described and the advantage see that's a particularly advantageous approach to very, very young children, especially infants, because to be wired properly, to take care of infant. The infant is always right. Hey up till about months of age or maybe a year of age, the right response to your infant. If that person is crying is there's. Something should do about it as fast as possible. We ve talked a fair bit about what fathers can do, two to help their children learn to delay gratification and so on. We talk like that.

What what? What can understand about how to facilitate that and how to trust it. Maybe we can, a little bit about what families might do in order to improve the improve them forms of their boys and girls. You talk a little bit book about a family, dinner knights and their importance. Yes, the most import we vote. We already know that family dinner nights are important, but what make family rights even more valuable is when they dont, because family dinner nightmares and knowing how to structure them. So they don't become family dinner nightmares. When somebody comes up to me after presentation and says I can't get children to give up electronics at dinner. I already know the beginning of the problem, that is, that the children are in charge of the parents and at the other end, what can I do to encourage my children to get involved with you to leave the d?

the electronics behind and your number one answer is to require them shit. What is not an option to sit down at dinner, but maybe some nice- you wanted to be some nice, not, but if you're having a family dinner night, especially structural family dinner night. The number one rule is no electronics at dinner. It up. If that was it I later than the electronics are taken away for a reasonable period of time and taken away right away from you, a period of time once the rule is understood, You can imagine that instigating wars in various household is exactly and so then you begin to a structure that family dinner night, so that everyone has an opportunity to talk, and everyone has, at the beginning of a structured amount of time that can check in just say how their weak wonder. How do we? going since the last time. So everyone knows that has not forty me for so and so and one minute for me, we ve entered

Tell me dinner night bees Europe for the one, that's one minute: well, that's an extension of the idea of a fair game too, and a reference everyone is half that Europe as a family or jobs. Job make sure everyone's needs are being handled, thought of and cared about, which is the way empathy is created. Empathy is not created by apparent whose always empathetic with a thousand desires when apparent is always hypothetical, Charles needs and desires. The charred becomes narcissistic not at that apathetic, and that's one of the things that we have made a mistake with could say that three or four times in a row. I think that would be really good. Yes right that so crucially important because you know did me if what you're learning is to put other people's feelings at the same level of importance as your own, then. Obviously that's associated very tightly with delay of ground.

Station with learning how to listen with turn, taking with fair play, with a with a refereed interaction. All of that, and so so the other. The other thing that that happens to- and you see this with couples is that if they have that time together, something analogous to family dinner night, although I think the family dinner right, a really good one for reasons all mentioned here in a moment. Is that one, what you're doing Imagine your family has a story and this areas where we can from where we are and where we're going together as a unit and then so needs of the individuals within that story has a story, and then you're doing in those family dinners that interaction times taking the individual threads of The individual story, threads and your weaving them together to make the collective story- and that keeps everyone up date and on the same page and unable to damp authorities and also a deep manner, because,

I don't know where you are what you're up to. I can't figure out what you're, thinking or feeling, and so I have to know what story you're acting out right now and so do you and in for you to know that for me to know what you have to be able to tell your story, and I have to build asking questions about it, then I think the other. That's really important about the shared meal is that human beings are really weird creatures, We seriously share food and, worse. Leaders, people don't eat well, if aid on their own and so its deeply it into us that idea of sharing food and so part of the extended sets of socialism. Vision is to get everybody does down around food to be polite and thankful for the fact of the food to enjoy that, but then also to to be able to given take well that's being shared, and that I would say if the most fundamental element of socialization- is something like the embodiment of rough and tumble play the next layer. On top of that would be the ability to sit down and

our food and have a civilised and have civilized discourse. Only in a civilised discourse, really needs to happen. The respect for story is so crew, so pivotal. So I teach, as you probably know, couples communication MRS around the country and one of the worthy dimensions of it, that is the single most important thing that kills marriage Her almost all relationships is our biologically oriented, inability to handle personal criticism without becoming defensive. So my first job is to teaching who knows, how to get around that biological propensity to become defensive when the Erika one of the many steps in their process, which is much too long to go into now, but it is to give them a picture of a picture of a person happens to be married.

The former governor of Europe that was take that was done by for artists of a picture was taken at the exact same time, same place, etc, and there are four different types of artists said: people deserve that the picture that, like Andy Warhol in a Modigliani and so on, and so the end work with every couple. To understand that when you hear your partly story, you will even though you are all looking at the same thing? There will be a different picture that is being is being created by each person at the table and so The job of couples is to understand how much of a sacrifice each Christian with big since the other pressing with, and yet how are often unable to handle personal criticism and to sit up Ray Ray and ourselves before we handle personal criticism to move ourselves into a place are really being fast either by our partners story. Banana fail, but had a family dinner table that has happen with every single member of the family that

when I say why, what women? in a says, let the something's! What what? What are you talking about its scope and somebody says what we're talking about the major morbid and persons, He says all meet me to move in a stupid. So can be sent me to movement is the best most progressive thing that ever happened. And so it is. It is very important that the prisoners as is the best thing that ever happened is listen to fully a person who is who pleases stupid and vice versa, and that there is no. There is the fact that there is facilitated questions that the family trains people to ask: how businesses right, so part of it is no the story before you offer criticism and no Carl Carl Roger how good advice about daddy and an probably already know this, but it's worth reiterating for people who don't so wrong, This rule was when your list, to someone, then.

First of all, don't assume that either you or they know what you're talking about what they're going to say, because people think by right right, pay people think by time So you gotta give them a chance to get it all out before you jump on it because they might change their own mind in the mid in mid stream. But so so that's important Let them formulate the problem before you jump in the criticism, but then thing. Is in this. I really love this. I think it's really useful, which is that once the person has laid out their story, you get to say This is what I heard you say. Do you agree with my formulation, because that stops the listen first, It indicates to the speaker that the listener actually listened or if, if if there is an error, then that speak for can say no, that's not what I meant at all, and then there can be some clarification, but it also forces The listener to not turn the speaker, to a straw. Man, because

It isn't. Only that I have to summarize what you said. I have to summarize what you said: that you agree with, and you know that it's also a useful technique, if there happens to be some wide variation in verbal ability among the participants- and there might be because of age for example, and so because it might be that either if you are somewhat incoherent and stuttering and impartial in your formulation, if I, An older, siblings say I'm be able to summarize it back for you in a way that actually helpful to you from the perspective of a cognitive scaffold, and so so so the thing you know we know that human beings organise their personalities at the highest level through narrative, and that narrative is not only thought it spoken, and so you speak your personality into being in these sorts of shared environments that you're describing and without that your story is fragmented. Parent, and so are you and so

can see why those shared social look, look. Sure meals once a damn important people wouldn't evolved the capacity to engage, right, I mean there are central to our social life and to have them abandoned in family is really a catastrophe. I think so really is in everything you said absolutely every part of it. I saw it. With you, and we are when you say that distorts something oftentimes, someone will say, may repeat what they heard her. They say, and then the person you asked data stored anything and the process as yet I think you distorted this and then the other press will argue and say no. I said that an The rule of the game is the poorest who is was speaking whatever makes them feel heard. That's when you haven't distorted anything and it's your job. It's your job to assistant customer is always right right, but that doesn't mean you have to agree with them. It just means you have to have got the damn stories straight there s rights

and that's so that also important. Some people really do make the mistake of thinking that if I get right correct what days that day said, that means I agree with them. No, it doesn't mean only means you heard them and and then a part of a family dinner tonight is about, is having a chance to have somebody of its personal criticism would be able to how to respond to that and have the person who who is listening to what made the criticism I hear that response and ask if there's any distortion on what they heard to begin with and the the biggest challenge for peace almost everybody I remember was an interview was by an pr, and they said you. How can you know some of the people who are aligned with the men's movement? They are yet they seem like hateful people, and I said well, if you, if you calling yourself progressive, is as opposed to as we do as I consider myself more and the liberal side of most things then are its first job is to

listen when people feel heard they stop hiding and at the other hating is comes from a building of not being seen, nothing heard being distorted. Being I'm blamed or a caricature. A negative way before your before your heard it. So that The job of every year of every person who calls himself progressive is to start hearing rather than arguing. First Well then? At least you can figure out what are you about, because one of the things that happens with with crystalline commune nation in the family. When the stories are being unfolded, is you can identify what the problems are and what their not like, give you? You know you,

be irritated at having to listen to your spouse, lay out in the stumbling in their stumbling manner, a particular problem. But if you understand at the same time that they might be dispensing of ninety eight problems and only focusing on to its worth the weight and so ok one other another question for there are people who are in the position where they can have male involvement with their children, let's say, and so what what recommend if anything for single mothers who are trying to do the best job they can with their kids, but our having a hard time pulling in male attention. What you think they can manage. First knowledge yourself for the enormous amount? multi faceted job, your undertaking. Second, As you look through the differences between both mothers and fathers to ask you whether there is any way you have, maybe not valued your foot.

Her husband in a way that can that we would draw him into the folks, but if the answer to those hazard are, I have I have valued him and they silken drew him into the fold, is essentially a deadbeat sorry about that then hear someone Since the number one the greatest men of evidence is, involving your children with cub scouts isn't very out, has a very well developed programme for developing character, motivation, integrity, loyalty, s sense of making promises that you keep. So very good studies have

John of children involved in Cubs counts for two years or longer? Is beans not just getting your child involving cub scouts here there, but if your child doesn't like something, that's happened, making sure your child go, gets back into the fold and deals with what is that it shouldn't be your child's choice: to go to come scouts. You're, not gonna, go scale how did your parental responsibility yet had their later to boyscout, sir? It doesn't have to become scouts a boy scout. Otherwise, some wise have good good programmes, also effort for young boys. Mankind project has been programmes for young boys now for the first time that they have a real good health assistance to help boys with fostering

The boys crops have also good programmes with young boys. Get you if you get your child, that a male mentor try to get your child to a school that has a significant number of males in at the aids in your child is especially future Very young is very important that a child that go from a mom only home to female schools, because the child will start searching for an identity from somebody that using destructive like a gang leader review, will give us the false identity. So these are just some of the many many things at each. We often think that a Chinese, a male major yes, how does need a male matter. Try to get the mentors carefully. Obviously, or you get your child to a faith, if you're at all, about in faith based communities, and even if you don't leaving God, God or night, not get your child in Bali in a faint based community where this,

good male counselor, I'm who has groups for children every four for young people, oftentimes young people there having troubles the that the ability to being heard to express your feelings to other males and see that your son is not just having me is not isolated in the problems facing amber. Theres many other boys about his age that are having the same problems, getting to be able to express his feelings about that. His fears about that to Serbia to, however, have a have little experience is done where he paints a mask of himself and what the mask says and then, when what is really being said beneath them. Ass, a good christian values hey. There can be a wonderful encouragement of a boy to express his feelings, render represses fuel in a society that is as ever and then What we all have a need to do is to get out there and say something very damaging.

Happened in our society. In the last fifty years we ve had when I started this work with the government with the commission to create a white house calls on boys and men. I started that after a call from the White House to say of asking if I wanted, we should be an adviser to the White House calls on women and girls, because my background with the national realisation for women- and, I said absolutely- but there also needs to be a White House Council envoys in that war for aid If we were to make that happen in our working with a chump administration. To make that happen, No one is getting boy yet. But the importance of making this happen is that there has to be our entire change in attitude and fear that we are not just living in a patriarchal world dominated by a patriarchy that the world is dominated by a need to survive. Yeah right, slightly fathers and mothers both sacrificed, so of their lives in the hope that their children would have better lives, women,

sacrifice is of careers. Men does or does make sacrifices in their careers. There are very few dad's of multiple children that that followed. The glint in there I because using fulfilled occupations that make you fulfilled our not occupied, is that pay well. So most of our fathers gave up for in order to do the things they needed to do like be a fire fire, writer of coal miner, for being willing to be disposable and more in order to be able to make their generation safer and have more options if they have all the sacrifices that our fathers made called male privilege or male dominance or such an under serving of men. So then that entire attitude also an under serving of women, to state that the entire cultural structure to date has been patriarchal in origin. The nitrate, the end you can what the definition of patriarchy is, but just understand that Europe

father and grandfather in great grandfather owes all did the exact same thing is your great grandmothers, and so I did they gave their lives in the hope that their your life and their children's lives would be better with greater amounts of opportunities, and most of them sacrificed a great deal. My father Your manage a company and my mother was very happy and eight managers Cubby Europe. My mother was variant it living in Europe rather than the United States, which was more comfortable for so. My father eventually gave up his job and so for Russia's from door to door for a year in order to be able to make sure we had enough money, at least to go to a state college and in my mother, had a decent, homer ahead and so did the children. And so yeah. Well, that's all associated with a little bit of gratitude for the past. It really as we should be. Instead of criticising the world is being patriarchal or ass, parents is being stupid, wish really be

saying mom Dad Grandpa Grandma, thank you for making our mastery of survival enough so that we You didn't have to stop us so much and survival, but let us not. Use are offered treaties by blaming for the world that they created that was destructive, undressed they were living at fifty percent. Longer now than we were a hundred and twenty years ago and and So the result of all they all the progress that you have made an end to the others is: why were you have worked so hard to This white House, as one boys and men, why we ve created a patriotic out to be able to develop big begin. Raise the money to be able to make this happen- that whether it happens by patron account or some other way. We need to have a I told revisiting the belief of women good

dad women oppressed men, oppressors and set up the monologues of hashtag me too. We need have, dialogues and said human resource centres. Becoming HIV are rather nature. That is all focused unheard, not not him in her. We really he'd have dialogues have work about. What's working for women was not working for women was working for men, it was not working for men, and so we really need a fundamental revisiting of male female end. And all of our gender roles of the past. That's an excellent nuts and that's an excellent place to bring our conversation. To a close, I would say: look I'd really like to talk to you again about probably about pig, At some point, we really concentrated on found what you, no lining in this book in your new book in the boy crisis- and I would say recommend people who are interested in this sort of thing to go up and pick it up. It's full of facts

and that's gonna nice and its concentrating something that is of crucial importance, and I think, maybe that people are starting to recognise as crucial as of crucial importance. I certainly hope so, and so your work has been very useful to me, and I appreciate very much the time that you spent today being able to talk to me, and I hope you get a chance to talk. I would like to talk about the pay gap is really impossible to believe that there is not a picture of a world if you believe that men are in more money than women do for the same work, and so you one has we start with a fundamental understanding that much much more complex than that ended a very different story than pretty much anybody proceeds. Yes, absolutely so will we will definitely scheduled area itself? Ok, we'll think,

you're not.