The. Hello, everyone watching and listening today, I'm speaking With musician chris Lunsford better known by his stage name oliver. Anthony we just the balance between vision and efficiency in artistic, and commercial endeavours Chris is hit song rate Man, north of richmond, has resonated so broadly and so quickly. The way honest expression through music, can combat demoralization how politics have become confused with the sacred and what we can do to restore each to their proper order, very much forward to it.

So. Mr Antony, yours, you you're stage, name his stage. Persona is Oliver your name Chris, I'm gonna call you Chris party call me jordan, so here you might not know about me and I don't care. You know maybe you want to know it? Maybe not. I've been collecting country and western music for about thirty years, something like that I had a roommate from southern Alberta, college in montreal. I wasn't really country western found. At that point he really tank Williams and I started listening to hake williams, and I thought, oh, my god, this is great and when, move to Boston. I started collecting all vinyl records course. I wish I had records when I was a kid In the nineties in Boston, you could pick up final for like three for a buck. You know it was dirt cheap, so used go into the record stores and pick up any weird lookin

album, usually from the fifties. Forty three, the sixties and build a big collection of country in western music, and then I made couple of cities, I called western blues and was given those out for christmas presents and I actually have a spotify. I have a spy five playlist, that's. twenty nine hours, long now, six hundred songs on it that I've collected for four My wife and I listened to a lot in the carts real good driving music in owen, I'm gonna just list some of the characters that island in two years, familiar with all these guys, but a lot of people watching in listening won't be, and they should be others. Williams, of course, bill Monroe, is Kentucky boys, coulter walls, a new guy from scotch one of these great young yeah he's greater my son played one of his songs to open my lectures. Fur Levin shows this year. That was really fun johnny Horton

ex ridder hank snow flat, scruggs the carter family, jimmy rogers, the stanley brothers Roy cuff right a cough hackberry ramblers gypsy kingsley on red bone. It said tell me, and I, my wife, we ve just watch the kin burns country music, a document which is absolutely great, is just brilliant. Eight rapid episodes, and I've done it This shows that the grand all operate in nashville so that fun there's a great bar there called roberts western world, and I go to when I go down to dash he'll, never banned. There called kelly's heroes. They did some Is it for me out the grand or law pre play A vicious rendition of the american national anthem on electric guitar and they do a great They do a great version of ghost riders in the sky, great blues, guitar version of

structures in the sky so anyways. I thought I'd tell you, you know that johnny come lately to the to the kind of music himself. Yeah- that's very very, unlike with with my listening I love the a lot of the older music and older blues like delta blues and that type of thing, but yeah. That's I wouldn't have guessed that about. She said. That's good to know yeah. It's a lot about about a quarter of spotify playlist is dealt a blow to because there's a great overlap rate because between the delta blues today the kind of music that you're interested in, and it is sugar that too. I saw that really portrayed well, for example, and off you ve seen the new elvis movie relatively new Elvis movie, which I thought was great, but it does. Lovely job of laying out the relationship between not black

this tradition and western countries, where predation you know it's not it's not a connection that people often make matters through a real think their terms of musical. John run nice interplay between the different musical forms so cool to see him course. World beneficiaries of that. You know yeah there's american musical something you may look at adding to your play. Lester looking up it, I think you'd find interesting, is idle. Hu. The group is in the video, but if you go on youtube, it's called car path. Folk music, at its usually first video to pull up under carping folk music in its. Maybe I want to say about forty five minutes long goes off. Ok, I need it. plays out almost like a symphony like it starts. It start sort of one element in it. It has it ups and downs and I've listened thing too, your time seen out it's like

sitting out in the woods listening to that is it it. It takes you on a ride almost the way like beethoven would, but it's it reminds me kind of almost a lot of the older country and blues it's it's. A very weird the very weird element, but it's got a lot of that sort of bluegrass elements to fiddle and upright bays and someone they gotta check out the car path in folk music. I I will one hundred. I will one hundred percent check that out yeah One of the things that really quite a mystery about music- and I can't quite figured out is you know I like classical music. I listened to a lot of music and the card. Classical music is hard to listen to in the car, because it's got such an immense demand, dynamic range, but no classic music is obviously extremely sophisticated, complex and brilliant and and and in all reaches up into the stratosphere of genius, but there's dead simple music that manages exactly the same thing mean johnny. Cash is a great example of that because well in the camp,

documentary you find out when Johnny cash first started mean his positions to barely play at all three cords according to sex. pistols were like that too and weirdly enough, and I dont get this exactly. Is that there's theirs One of the hallmarks of musical genius is often city, a genuine mr right. So you can take a really simple melody. You can do something stunningly brilliant with hank Williams is created that and it gives. the depth. That's timeless right it it doesn't it doesnt age, which is what time, which means, of course, but I did It- has these something like that, genuine, isn't it these something like that that speed at the imagination of people around your song right because I was listening to it. I listen to it a couple of times this morning just to re familiarize myself with it before we talked, and you have a genuineness of voice that.

Has obviously struck a chord and so I'm curious about that is. First of all, I am really curious about. How are you doing because you get the centre of a media. Fire Storm here in the last couple of weeks, and not must be shocking to what's that, be likened. Why do you think your song? What is it about your song, you think you did write that that it can did it to its growing viral, who sought taken time to try to turn. Santa myself, you know, the song. the song skyrocketed in a way that it there's been accusations that it was then he was propped up almost that I'm in industry plan, because it is we posted the song on our numb. We, hoarded it on me on Saturday? I think. I uploaded on tuesday and by Thursday man, it we were here on a roller coaster. I'd like it was already apparent that things were gone

heading in a direction that nothing else on this channel had done previously. Radio Debbie an yeah. I mean I guess to answer the first part of the question. How I'm doing I suppose The prize is very calm like I have I've been entertained the last couple weeks, I'm You ve been given sort of an unfair advantage of how the internet works and how how narratives spread and certain directions tat. You know people warm opinions about things like, for example, may playing the superbowl? You know I've gotten I've gotten alive, comments and messages, saying that I'm a sell out that I've decided to sing the superbowl, but that was it's an internet, mean that someone grated on facebook, life sample the one. The one that popped up yesterday was that Oliver anthony. get burning man patent, people were sending myself stuff, don't a terrible. I was at this like us.

a burning man's, this satanic ritual plays, and you shouldn't be there and it like that but I see now, as I upload a video of me hanging out with my goats and the words like yeah, and burning man. It really is that right it's terrible being stuck in burning man, but so I don't know I tried out: myself so seriously- and I've tried not to take this situation seriously. It's just its bless for the opportunity to be here I mean even just being able to have a conversation with you is surreal. Meeting Joe rogan was surreal, just the It is that I've looked up to like Jamie Johnson in shooter jennings, in It's just so weird that there are phone call away now. So I'm doing well like I I as I'm sure you know, like my the last. for years. I haven't been some great for me anyway. As far as my own, my own section on life, and so this is exciting to have a new opportunity to dive. to its what I've been. It's really really

when I've been wanting to do for a long time. I've just been so terrified of the idea of doing it, but I hear it here. I am like there's no there's no going back now. I guess so Well, that's actually something I wanted to talk to you about. As I was reading when I was doing some background research on you, I and this is relevant to the issue of selling out that you brought up for you know why worked with a lot artists and I've worked with a lot wanna be the artists to ignore these had contact with them and one things. I've really noticed is that many of us people, I've met, who are extremely artistically. Talented, themselves, in the foot. The commercial side of things, and they do that in three ways: the it is for our ways Firstly, is there actually terrified of commercial success, and that's actually understandable, because along commercial success comes a transformation in life style and in social positioning

and it's easy to be leary of that, and there is some utility and not especially, if you're a private person you know and then there's The ecological issues that come up to so it's the issue of selling out is a really relevant one lots of artists will refuse to have anything to do with the commercial end of their enterprise, because they're afraid that will interfere with the flourishing of their artistic spirit and that that's foolish when it is foolish for a bunch reasons like first of all, we They create unless people have access to what you create. I mean. Maybe you enjoy yourself and not be perfectly the case, for example with music, but you know if europe performer in principle. You want but to be here, you have to perform and partly so they can enjoy it. Partly so you can get feedback, so you can get better, and so you actually want to bring it your work the attention of as many people as possible the people.

Bitch and moan about selling out most loudly are almost always people who had no opportunity to sell out like no one's ever offered them the chance to be commercially successful in so what they do. Is they alibi? their moral stance on falsely by, waving, that there are the sort of people that would never fall prey to any capitalist temptations when the is there not talented enough or interesting enough for anyone to ever offered them that possibility, and then the other thing that creative people, do that's a really big problem? Is they don't comes, ro, the marketing and the communication and as another creative challenge, you know, If you're a creative person, you actually overlap with people who have entrepreneurial interests temperamental, but one of the things you can do if your creative- and this stops you from selling out, is to understand that the venture of marketing yourself in presenting yourself in developing a perfect

persona and also learning how to for yourself against the negative consequences of that is also creative challenge. You know You might ask any creative person might ass. Well, if I was went to handle the problem of being successful? creatively how I do that becomes another creative problem instead of lichen and antithesis between, let's say the selling out I believe that would war pure your creative spirit and and increased Spirit itself, so I'm wondering in your situation, I read today that you had a million dollar contract offer that you turned down, I'm wondering if that's true, true, why you do what you're alternative plans are. Any of you have a real devout vision for what it would be like to keep them what you're doing but also be successful as law. Questions,

Ok I'll, do it. I was getting into when I came on the road. Have you understand? I am music is music It is important to me individually, these songs that I wrote I wrote for me and inadvertently. It has helped a lot of other people like not just richmond north of richmond, but I've got get sober like that's one that I just recorded on my android phone and if you look through the comments and emails, I've gotten I had it. I had a gentleman the other day at my out. We did we at a far market, and he too me that his his brow, or had committed suicide he had been. Had been struggling with drugs for years. This is like a big gruff guy, like a guy that look like he could kill me with two fingers we hardly each other in as he cried and told

this, like that's, that's, Important to me is like. people are just so desperate to store some element of humanity back in our life that we ve somehow lost. so I don't want to. I I dont want to make this into some enterprise where everything's about me. the algorithm in being at the top of the charts and and and posting and social media at just the right time to capture the most audience like that that there's plenty. People who are out playing that game and their good at it. And I'd like for them to continue to do that. I want to. I just want to feel like I have the floor them to do whatever I find it is necessary in and that moment of time to end people. The way I have so far with the music that I've produced. I have some

like twenty one thousand emails right now in my gmail, I've got to get to five hundred unread messages on Tik tok instagram facebook like in there, not just people telling me good music, keep it up now, it's like a paragraphs of of stories of like people have in the work to jobs because they lost their business during covered in their case, Committed suicide, in, like I mean it's just wretched stuff, that its aim is the it is the full, transparent narrative of what a lot of us already see on the surface level of what's happened the last few years, and yet Like I dont know what I want my music to turn into a may. It may manifest itself in this, into some form of aid of lebanon. On profit or a ministry more than then just they go on out like I don't. I dont want to just go yell all my songs stadium. Do you know

we can for the rest of my life like? I want this to. To turn into something that's more meaningful than that? If that makes any sense,

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things you said there mean when I started to blow up and. started working in a much more broad public manner The things that was really hard on me was the the kind emails that you're, describing I'm not complaining about this, I'm just pointing it out like I've done a lot of clinical work and I'd seen a fair bit of misery in my clinical pray. This may not fully that's an understatement, but you know it was It was limited at most to a couple of dozen people and then all of a sudden, I was doing lectures for thousands of people and meeting since of people and also and then hearing the kind of stories that your hearing from hunger There are thousands of people, and you know you talked about dehumanization in desperation. And it's really quite overwhelming, to start to see that in that heartfelt said,

you described you that big guy was give new hug break the tears mean you mean couple of hundred people like that in a week who do the same thing and it's it. I found that extremely extremely difficult cause. I didn't really understand how widespread that demoralization and desperation was, and to see that on a large scale was really heart stopped, start a danger to the point it exists within the music industry. Like they say, never meet your heroes, but I've gotten made quite a feat of a few of my heroes. The last couple of weeks and then I have written the roller coaster of signing up. deal and playing, shows and being in that and being contracts and in that algorithm- and they are I speak for everyone. I'm sure there's people that love to go out and tore, and do it like a lot, my heroes and music that I've taught you are not happy doing what they do like.

Not happy having to gain so they tells me. Let me tell acknowledge what are very yeah yeah yeah Well, if so, my wife and I ve been tour and now for four years, and I'll tell you how we ve managed it if your interested first of all. It's a real privilege right to be able to go out there and and speak in front of thousands of people, and it's been a real adventure to go all over the world we have align ourselves with pop rate people, unbelievably helpful, so I've got a purse your staff that handles security and logistics and they take care of all travel details flights, hotels, Getting me to the venue term, united, the venue, that's one percent off my plate. and we had a rule that we learned where touring, which was that

If you have any one with you that causes any trouble at all tat, they dont immediately fix, so if their, if their trouble, they have to leave have to have people along who were like one hundred percent zero trouble it's a lot of work to move from city to city every day and to be there for thousands of people in uk have unnecessary trouble and then have to figure out how to time it so that it doesnt work. you too fragile. You know You can die from an overdose of great opportunities as your definitely going to find out and made him already have, and so you have figure out for yourself how you can take enough time so that you have that opportunity to do your car of work and not to exhaust yourself, and you know that takes a certain amount of testing to see where the balances, I travel, my wife, that really helps we all I travel with some friends or some family. The same rules apply. We won't travel with people that cause any trouble, but it's.

is to have people along that keeps you get to know them better? It's a good adventure for them and not keeps you together mean its part. able to do this in a way that, like per enjoyable, and so that you get an opportunity to play for many people, but tom you know it's a demanding enterprise and you have to one hundred percent make sure that your surrounded by people who take what can be taken off your plate and they can seriously trust, and then and be it can be an insane adventure. Cited for the opportunity to travel, we like we ve, had its. As you are aware, this, like just the initial song, broke in so many countries like I've, gotten then outreach, I was ashamed that I couldn't do that. I couldn't travel yet I dont have a passport, but like

I just got a message last night from a girl in rome saying that you know she adorable. Friend had been riding around all night. Listening to my music and ireland, scotland, like comes I'm, I do intend to travel. I just want to do it in a way that is more me. involving just showing up in it. Amphitheatre and shouting some lyrics it people, and then everybody gets drunken goes home like I am. I'm sure there's a way I can conceptualize this to have more impact because that's that's the import of the song to begin with is the impact that had the it somehow broke it somehow broke. The the political on the political front that has like almost encapsulated every part of our society today, not just in the north america, but really globally, like the mess resonated with people in all types of, frank cultures in countries it's like this is something this is this phenomenon of politics, sort of

most parasitically capturing the way, we think about everything. That's a global thing. That's not just the north american thing at this point. It is happening very quick, ok, ok, so so two things are not well. Ok, first of all, one of the things that happened, I think, is that. The sacred has collapsed into the profane, and so the medical has now become sacred have to have a space for things that are sacred, so they stay out of the political and in everything become to touch you to talk about because everything political is become religious, and now it's really not a good thing. It's part of the reason that we need a. religious foundation isn't isn't optional. I know talked about out a little bit with rogan now the other thing that's interesting. You know you said you'd, you don't want to go just to a stadium and shout lyrics and let everybody get drunk and go home, and you know what the things. I have also seen that unfortunate is many of the artists or talk to these were often people who had stellar

international careers there, afraid. I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case with you, but I'd like to talk about it with you. There are afraid There are mere art, isn't good enough, given the importance, let's say, of all the political and and maybe religious people there is in the world, but you know I do, I actually don't think that's true. I don't think I've got to a lot of concepts and I've watched the kind of cause. I religious nature of a great concert. and I actually dont think there's anything more important than an artist can do then for you're. A situation, for example, is to give the best damn concert you possibly can you no one I can see you're torn between that to some degree. You know because you say well, you know you don't want to go and shout out a bunch of lyrics so that people can get drunk and go home, but then that you ve done has open to many people very deeply all around the world and that you ve done was a genuine expression of what you really believe to be true, and I would say that if you go to a concert and what you

Who is you really saying what you believe to be true, There are actually is no better service that you can possibly due to people, no matter what it is, that you're doing a guidance if there is anything except for what's truly religious, I don't think there is anything that supersedes genuine art, not in terms of potency and truth, and I thank you see in that because of what happened in relationship to your song, and I think that's also partly because of that other You made wishes and the same with the song about sobriety is you're. Actually, writing your songs. I think Hank Williams did this and johnny cash to unbelievably effectively the genuine songwriters they're, not to max out the algorithm and they're. Not they don't have contempt for the audience. That's not what I mean, but they're not doing it. They're not Doing it for their own fate, they're doing it to express something approximating the truth in the way that they see fit with with whither you that's obvious, we gotta be musical. So one of the things

would say, is don't be thinking, there's any higher purpose, you can serve than the genuineness, genuineness that you bring to your art man, good musicians are, I think, people die without good music, You know it so important. We have no idea how important it is. It's a yet. I agree it is to humans. Is to me that music is, I mean every culture that we know of whether there I mean music, is something that manifests itself in any society as an and the more that people suffer the more they lean on music. You know some of the best music. Then written in the worst of times, so I definitely agree like it, There is an element of healing to it in, and one thing that I've noticed about the music industry, just It might now that I'm in the business you now one things. I've noticed is that we pray, or a ties as with

two things and are now like its. We prioritize through this through the system of the music industry, we prioritize, what can they Most money, and not necessarily what can resonate with the most people, are, what's the most genuine and often, and so like in free music now I love nineties country music. As a kid I remember, riding with my parents and my grandpa and listening to you, know, thou and Jackson's and george straits and publish the dude. unlike those are just fine, like just good sound but somewhere country, music, and I think music in general, has really lost a connection with people, because it's become its become who commercialized and not not enough about, and so that's kind of, like you, I did. I've turned down a lot offers the latest one I saw was a hundred million that certainly not the case, but yeah I had millions of dollars thrown at me, and I've had everything thrown at me. The last couple weeks and

but I guess I guess the reason why I want to stay on my own path. Is that I'd like liked fire other musicians. To do the same thing, you know like that. The stock We kind of how all this came about is just. I mean most of the music from my android phone that I you know disregarded, put on youtube. I rip the way file uploaded it. There's a service called distro kid you can use you pay like a nominal fee annually. They don't take any of the money and it automatically puts it on all the platforms for you spot a five candour apple. You two basic like I would like to see more people do what it is. I did like I'd like if anything that I'd like it, inspire other artists to cannot about going through a record label or worry about trying to find a big booking, I see, but just

it's more on on creating whatever it is. You feel compelled to create and get it out there and not work, not worry about everything else, because, obviously that's what we're so desperate. I mean like even just the phenomenon with podcast in the last five years, like the fact that Book and sit here and listen to us talk for an hour and a half so intently like it's been, may I listen to podcast all day long people are just at this point, does but for authenticity and desperate to connect with other human beings on the level that we haven't been able to connect on very well in the last ten years because of technology and pilot. X and government in this This weird separation, that's been put between us and covered, certainly accelerated that to a whole new white like it. It's been, with a very weird world we live in today and so yeah, that's kind of my thoughts, process. I guessed answer to counter wrap up that on on me. Future. It's it's more about.

Trying to create a new way of thinking with music and really is an old way of thinking, but it's just bringing an end to enter and tar time enough. according to a recent study of hundreds of posts, abortive women, sixty percent of women reported that they would have preferred to give birth if they had received more support from others or had more financial security and that pre, born steps in pre born is there for women in their darkest hour deciding between the life and death of their precious child. The reality is that women are being pressured to make this fatal decision and are being told that their babies are just a clump of cells. Pre born outcomes women with love and introduces them to the beautiful life growing in sight of them, which doubles their babies chances at life? When you see for free born? You not only support women, you empower them. You're donation of twenty eight dollars will help women receive a free ultrasound. Your love can save a life dial.

Two fifty and say the key word baby or, it pre born dotcom slice. Jordan all give- our tax deductible. You will never regret saving a child's life, that's pound to fifty baby, or visit pre born dotcom, slash Jordan. Case. So that's very interesting, and also so. It's definitely the case that the post, Laura of publishing platforms now allows artists, like yourself jill rogan, let's say too circumvent the intermediaries in a way that never before being possible right and and It is a good example of that, because all rogan, for his podcast all what cnn objected to? Was he invited. People, too, is

discussion that he wanted to talk to anyone. After the many listened in, he tried to learn and at the time Joe started his podcast. really need either the same or the money because he was already famous and he had the money and wrote there's someone who's primarily oriented in that direction. Any ways we can talk about him a little bit in more detail later to, because you were just honest: gas than he I that advantage of going directly to the consumer, let's say and soon, circumventing the intermediaries and he hasn't wavered from mad at all. Although he's also partnered with spotify right and then I started putting my lectures on youtube in two thousand and thirteen, because I was curious about it and I've taken advantage. Of the same opportunities that you have described in. It's been great I would say, however,. And this may be, has maybe this is relevant to personalizing things, rather thinking about them in the abstract,

now in the last year I partnered with the daily wire plus people I- and we really thought about that, and for like nine months before we decided to do it, It was a real in Hence negotiation. Good faith negotiate on both sides, but it was a very intense negotiation and it was a daisy aid because On our side, we thought well, do we want a partner with anyone at all, and if we do that, we want a partner with these reprehensible. We know right wing wing not spend shapiro and his lot and then we also thought going to ruin my podcast, if allying with something this somewhat more corporate in its orientation and that's a real danger, you no one with we did Have a bit of negotiation round out when we first started ordeal to, because there were ways that the more carbon guys their staff talking about content providing that risk turning them?

cast into something that was sort of legacy. Media polished now upside, they ve run equally improved. My ability to do podcast they set up studios for me all around the world and in florence right now the detail, but people set up a studio for me here. So I can do this. They, the increase, the quality of the podcast, and they left me the hell alone completely. If I, I want to do something and I suggested to them. They almost invariably say. Yes, there are a lot and to work with their very entrepreneurial they're, not corporate, they dont think of content production. They don't talk down to the audience, that's been great and they ve got of problems for me, rather than introduce in corporate problems, and I would say the same thing with life nation you know I have my doubts about life nation because of their stranglehold but say on ticketing butter there. better than some of the corrupt production

people we ve got involved with in countries that aren't is well developed because we ve hit some fraudsters and so the reason I'm telling you all, this is fairly straightforward. You know On the one hand, you have the advantage of going direct consumer in the way that you have described in that gives artists a tremendous amount of freedom, but if you're, very, very careful and judicious in who you're partnering with you can find, people who will but up new avenues of opportunity for you without interfering with whatever it is that you value in what you have to bring, and you have to the devil's into details, man, because it boils down to the character of the person, the specific person or persons that you're dealing with I was- the tour manager john, whose absolutely amazing manager. Used to be

comedian like our travelling to media, and it was on the road all the time so he's on the road like twenty years and he's been superb, so you and find people to work with. You will expand your commercial reach without put. Through the grinder and and killing, who's that lays the gold makes but buddy it requires a lot of discernment and carer yeah. Well, discernment is an important and important concept with all of this yeah, because every decision every word you speak in every decision you make and can very quickly change the course of everything in this world. It is interesting up here. You bet yes with it Yes, the beauty to with Joe rogan end with you and with others, is that you conceptualize and created sort of your masterpiece and then decided to bring in something to help supplement that reinforce it, and so that's so maybe that is something I can you know it's like you didn't you didn't,

the daily wire of like hey? Let's start a podcast, like you already sort of created, you sort of pre did the format and they just respectfully added to it, and Maybe that's a good way to go about doing it, even with mine might like well one of the things one of the ways you can tell if you can do that. So in your situation in year, a fortunate situation at the moment because out of this, What, because you can say no people coming to you. instead of you going to them. As you just pointed out, and so you you have, you have the fortunate opportunity to set the terms beginning to think through what those aren't. You already told me to some degree is like you do we want a subordinate, your music to profit. Dont want to become a generic, and you don't want

the corporate world interfering with your ability to speak directly to people. You know that the principles that are actually worth writing down. You know like if you- and I often these two people in general is magic and you do this. It's very useful thing to do, imaginary. you could be exactly where you wanted to be in five years. Knock. You ve got the stellar opportunities in front of you. So then you going to allow yourself to imagine like you're a kid who's, pretending or daydreaming and thinking, okay, man- I I can be wherever I want five years, I'm a musician. I've already got an audience. I've got an audience of people who want to hear me. I've got a commercial options and then I have a point, if lights, that I enjoy K, how I bring all of those together in the optimal way. What would that look like and that's gotta be? That's you know. There's a line in the gospels says that you should ask and you'll receive. You should in the door will open- and you seek and you'll find, that's actually an injunction to kind of meditative prayer

an idea fundamentally this works like a charm, is. What the hell do you want just imagine that fortune could conceivably smile on you in the way. how's the last couple of weeks- and you could set up your future so that was literally. Your dream. What would that look like you obviously like performing a mean if you we could do that little bit right now. If you man, you could a year where you had exactly the right balance between performing and having a I've lifelike, size audiences do like playing for for. The other kind of the challenge. I love the intimate sea of smaller. We did. This market. We had about twelve thousand show up and I'd end like anything that, despite everyone telling me, I was a fool for doing it. I stayed in did like a meeting agreed after for about four.

Half hours, but it gave me enough time that I was able to see to it. I'd like to stay. and a level I'd like to have opportune needs to be able to meet people so ten or twelve thousand people I mean we ve got. We ve got a few coming up that size. You know you go back to your point about trying to sort paint a picture. I mental picture of five years ahead. I know you had talked about that at some point to lecture and that's actually I give you some credit. For me sitting in the chair on and now because I have done that from your reckon day's. I did yourself authoring programme and all maybe, there are three years ago, and you know the thing that the thing that really spoke to me. The mouse, though, is your story. About your friend Chris, because I'm press, oh yeah,

and I and I was really old man- and I was you know you talk to me your friend Chris, being in an aspiring musician in getting high all the time and like I got an eye, if I recall correctly Chris head was it from what I can interpret like it. With my own experience. Maybe he was even experiencing some like cannabis and do psychosis and all I remember the story. I think it yeah that was in the other room and like yeah, that. Yeah I realize like maybe on maybe I'm Chris, you know. so I have other is part of the reason I wrote about my friend. He eventually committed suicide at both the age of forty five. He found me one night, he had got a bunch of his short stories published in a small, but in an anthology from northern Alberta and he's actually pretty good stored story ready. He was a good start refer to this quite a bit man is free.

of mine, and he did too much pot and it wasn't good forum, and maybe there was something else going on there too, but he became very bitter and resentful in it and because you know he regarded his own ambition is evil, He was one of these demoralized young men, an early version of it very sensitive person, easily made guilty and the constant harping about you know the evil, patriarchy and terror the consequence of male ambition, just tabs it did him in you, don't want it played into his own willing on work is to accept responsibility and a kind of pathological way. Very sad like I knew him for years and he live Me in montreal, when he was older in his third, my wife and I for awhile, and we cannot. We try to help get his life back on track and did to some degree, but then he laughed and went back to Alberta anyways. He committed suicide. The day after he had found me and told me

about having this publication. He went out new tracking hooker a tube to the exhaustion in his truck, and smoke cigarettes out in the mountains and you don't just let himself go and it was quite them. a catastrophe, but it was one of those situations where yeah his life was to aimless and he he didn't his own. potential with enough seriousness he regarded as ambitious as the ambition is evil became a nihilistic borders, did the worst possible fence and you know in drifted was really a real waste of talent, and so it's a hell of a thing, to hear you say you know that you saw some him in you, but it's very, very common in open it A lot better develop a vision. You talked about the self authoring programme, its you need a vision, man and so now you said you talk due to our youth is saying to twelve thousand people in that was good, but you like that contact with the meat great, so mighty

It sets up meet greets after my event at every event, and so it's a premium ticket and you know you can you can what would you say, sat arise that is access, capitalist, mauritania, but you have to harm people. In some manner with a lot people want to see you and is also the case. You know that people want to enter into a reciprocal agreement, and so, if there really happy with you and what you doing, they also want to contribute, and that's part of noble trade? Now I love the meat reach, you know I only meet people for about fifteen seconds. Probably and I've but I've learned to put them at ease very quickly and to get a bit of a inter action. You know what the things I've learned for eggs- I believe that when people approach you and their hand, to shake your hand now going, You on the street. All the time now, obviously, is that you can match your Tempoed there's like a dance. You, towards them about as quickly as they move towards you and always aspect.

What their name is, because even if they're nervous, most p Who can remember the name. I once they tell you that once they tell you that that sort of puts them at ease- and I really liked great, you know, because it also helps you remember who year it differentiates audience back into individuals, and you should always be communicating with individuals. You know assumes you start talking to the crowd of some character I pointed out as soon as you start talking to the crowd european lying. You have to be walk into the individuals in the crowd and so on, You can have your cake and eat it on the turing front. You know you. Can you can sing too large audiences, but you can keep that intimacy if you structure it properly and then you also don't get on your high horse too badly cause. You know people he's coming up the and telling you, while, like the story that you just told about the guy who came up, do you know with his with brother who was in such trouble? and here in those sorts of stories from people and seeing them open themselves up like that

the eagle out, do you now it's really annoying! Things have happened you in your touring too, because when you're descent that much attention? You know you can get passed up not so dangerous manage so dangerous to have that happen? Yeah I dont literal. I don't ever want to sit in a position to where I feel like better than anyone that I'm singing to yeah. I don't like that. You go there. You see come with people better, celebrity satis like it. So it's a judy because it. ultimately it ends up. The person changes in no whatever into something completely different, they what people fell in love with him for in the first place, you know like I, I dont see myself any different than any one else, then I'm so lightly switzerland. So weird about this whole thing anyway is like. When I am approached. Of course, a mate like maybe I need to shave my beard and cut my hair and wear a hat, and then I can go out in public for a couple of days, but am I

stand out in a crowd anyway, my height and red hair and all and so yeah, but is it hasn't? Venom at least not yet it hasn't been a bother, expand its been nice to know that. it's nice to know that it has made a positive impact on people like I don't I just I just felt so it was for the future for such a long time that, like saying people just saying, people feels thing that I haven't seen in a long time means a lot. It means a lot more to me than than any else than the money or whatever you now,

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plus rating with a better business bureau. Thousands of happy customers in countless five star refused. I trust, birch gold to help you diversify into gold. If a central bank digital currency becomes a reality, it would be nice to have some gold to depend on again texture, in two nine eight nine, eight nine eight. What made you you said that, for a long time you would felt hopeless about future. In you alluded to this song that you wrote to about sobriety what and also about identifying to some degree, let's say with my friend crisp? What do you think? What are you Why's that How did you to feel hopeless about the future and How have you dealt with that to the read that you have, and how would you dealt with that successfully hopelessness I think comes from. From seeing us all like we ve just with

in fault and each other instead of finding common ground of each other anymore, like to your point about christen, like like with you know- and I am that's one of the verses in the in the popular song- is that France's young men committing suicide it this ridiculous right. They are today because yet and I dont know why it is. I think it's I think it's almost been and for a social media sort of the paris civic way that it alters our thinking like, but by just we read everyday things that just changed job perception of each other, but we ve gotten to a point where we almost it's easier. I used to try to find differences and faults in each other instead of similarities, which we we all hold much more common ground than we do difference. You know me, we all we're all biologically similar- and we we all have to

acquire some amount of money we most of us have ambitions of raising a family or at least have developing friendships. Like you know,. I'd say. Ninety percent of the people that ITALY's exists in north america are very similar in almost every way, but it's like we somehow found the did pick arbiter. Very differences that we hold and we exploit those in below those up and so yeah. It feels hopeless because we are more divided today than we've ever been like everything's politicized. Everything is about. on one person on party or one person trying to hold some moral high ground over the other. Just for it take us of being able to point the finger down item, you know what the hell are we doing like we ve gotta, we have just an increase. Will opportunity to live in the place that we do. The fact that you and I can can use, his speech and free thought, because the speech

thought are one and the same like. If, if people are unable to have open honest conversations with each other, they are unable to conceptualize new ideas that takes us into a better place in whatever place it We previously like that's just that in existence one on one and said so to see that being threatened and see us all sort of being put into these categories in these political bucket see now is like. even even just our own The personalities of people have been weaponized against each other, each other. You made a good point, its benefits. years ago, maybe where you were talking about- and I never looked at people this way prior, but you were talking about how just in people's own persona their personality in the way they think people can be. Or conservative or liberal, like Entrepreneurial imaginative people are typically more liberal, and you know like in a business The sea always typically going to have a more conservative perspective, envy the guy.

with a new ideas: entrepreneurial guy he's gonna be more liberal, and it's like it seems like these. Whoever this day is the man behind the curtain. If you well, I don't know if that's just idle I don't know how to explain that side of it, but it seems like things have. come very much like taking the magic native creative person and weapon icing him against the more traditional was grounded person, instead of them using their strengths together to sort of build a brighter future. It's about time in each other and say how fought like far. We can take this thing, but ultimately my hopelessness comes from from like this country or what is this worlds? Gonna, look like in twenty or thirty years like what world or my kids going to live, and is it going to be Are they going to be allowed to say what they think are they gonna even be able to walk on the sidewalk? I mean, like you, know better than most about this, the atrocities that went on a hundred years ago, a hundred and fifty years ago, like we're so close to falling back into that

It's really where my hopelessness comes from, but I do believe things can be turned around for the better in a short period of time is just people have to sort of retrain the way they think about each other Ultimately, the way they think about themselves. You know, god. I've only been on I've been on twitter two weeks and realized twitters a good place to be like people seem to spend a lot more time, finding fault and others better than the next time, should be? Spending with their families are spending working on a hobby, Europe's or aside business, or you know like a lot our time, is wrapped up in so in social media and ends, and it's become very toxic. You know tee, so so The things there so. In terms of. Keeping your feet on the ground when you're, when you ve become us Liberty become the centre of attention in others,

a tremendous emphasis in the judeo christian tradition of attending to your own sins right of taking the log does your own, I, instead of worrying about the speck in your neighbor Zion, certainly you know, you said you regard yourself is as another another person among people. You know one one of the thing that's very necessary to do if you are in a celebrity position, is to spend a fair It is time now annotating on your own inadequacies like not in an involuntary himself, denigrating way the way that it would be associated with depression. Let's say buddy enough in open I'd and humble analytic way, so that you remember that you still up that you have things to improve right in that. That's your problem in your responsibility. It's actually a relief to do that, and so that's like a meditative or religious practice, and then you talked about the relationship between the

creative entrepreneurial type and the conservative managerial type and that's what I was alluding to. Let's say when I was talking about the partnerships that I've established with people like see a live nation and and Why folks, relationships have been made personal in a rather than organizational and so, although they are the people, working with our members of large organizations, the relation themselves or personal and are based on asked him because of that I've been able to better from the managerial capabilities of the people that I've been working with and I learned that actually from the man. I was apprentice too, as a graduate student mcgill Robert pale, who still a business associate of mine robber Was a very good a very good administrator as an manager, as well as a very good entrepreneurial scientist, and he was very good at managing his lab and keeping track.

of the necessary corporate and administrative elements that made the entire process move forward and its that's harder for creative p. Because those are sort of petty details, but you can learn how to value that, and it is to create a person learning to value the conservatives. You know it's the same thing, the person who can put things in place incrementally and move forward, move things forward efficiently, but perhaps lacks vision. it's easy for the visionary to be contemptuous of that, but it's a big. Mistake, just like it mistake the conservative type to dance. the visionary type right, because now in their new ideas, need come along, but personalizing that you can you? Can it in that kind of harmony, harmonious production that you described personalizing. It also helps remove sir of the temptation to denigrate the side that is, you know, ever mentally aligned with you. So if you careful. You can have your

They can either to you talked about this. over three thought Program, you said you had develop, Couple years ago, three years ago, or so you develop something of a vision for yourself and So do you remember what the details of that vision were and why you decided to do it. yeah, so I'd I'd use a couple of years their ideas, the south authoring- and I also use the the personality trade for my wife and I for, we got married an arm andrea, myself, understand myself, ok, so we used both of those like, so we can figure out how we just move in together in we made dating a couple years prior that we were getting ready to get married and yeah trying to figure out how we could you know like any couple when you, when you live, together things are much effort than when you're not living together, and you really learn how you have to work around each other at home, and so yet we use that, but yes

authoring was more just trying to figure out where my direction was because I had I didn't. I move Dropped out of high school, I moved her western north carolina a sort of in this pursuit of adventure. I guess in and then head injury, and I had to move back and so everything that I sort of plant, like my of what I thought my twenties going into my these would look like completely fled upside down, and I am I, indeed the sales jobs still kind of in the industrial construction industry and it was paying the bills, and I got to talk to people every day, and so I was like well I'm pretty cool with this, but this really isn't what I want to do with my life and I I did the self authoring programme and realise that, like I really needed to make some big changes in my twenties and power, that was selling our house. We bought some acreage and ah moved into her mouth, and this is.

This really almost caused me, my marriage, but I like hey, honey, we're selling in the house and were we're binds and land I'm a mile off the road this politics mosquitos, and snakes and we're going to live in a camper for a couple years until we can try to afford a mortgage in, but that was was the beginning of kind of the vision of all this. I really look. I wanted to be it's funny? I was this conversation with my mom earlier, but she she said you know. I remember you saying the other day that, like you, really said that by the time you were thirty five. You wanted to have freedom finance and able to do not necessarily retire but be able to do whatever it is. You wanted to do, which was for me, like we want to get into regenerative agriculture and I'm very interested in black forest rays, all tree in, like I've, loved in nature like us, just where I seemed to thrive

so yeah, he was sort of changing my direction away from, like I dont need a big mortgage, I dont need a car payment. So I thought I had a nicer I sold and I bought this old, suburban for two thousand dollars, and so the drive in it, and so we got rid of our car payments. We got got out of our debt. You know. All we have is just the land payment, so is about like taking my finances way down to where Bills are low, I dont need to make as much money, and I can try to have some freedom to pursue like that's really when I got out of it I'd, say yeah who, so really help wagon a radical change. It's very easy to get caught sort of in that monotonous every day and easy when all your friends or by a new stuff in you They're sending your credit card offers in the mailbox every and it's like it's very easy to get wrapped up in sort of this world where you have to work, you have to work at some time. I will not. Seventy five that you don't like unable to try to live,

live some life. You don't really even want to live, so it is very important. Like I d I found benefit out of that, like, I think I think, ideal world, you can just sit down with a notepad and do exactly the same thing that the nice thing about self offering is that it sort lays out the steps for you to wear to where you can just so those questions and away in and be able to reflect back a lot easier for. Somebody like like a like me, that's not in psychology. Is it just speeds up the path says tremendously of trying to figure out whatever it is. You know it's very you get up in the day to day of life and in five years, ten years later, you ve lost whatever it was. You were ten years ago is very easy to just stay. Present moment and not take the time to reflect into the past and the future in a way to align yourself with whatever it is. You really want to be an that's enough. that's where anxiety, depression and like divorce and anger, and all these things like this,

but things manifest themselves in like a how to a family household in the mother and the father fight and they get divorced and the kids like things fall apart, because there is there their people don't take the time to just figure out like, whereas this train really headed you know. So it is I highly recommend people do that probably heard by now that you should be using a vps when you connect to the internet, but if you're like adding an extra step to anything. You do every day. Just sounds like a hassle. Well, let me tell you if you knew how easy it was to protect your connection with express bbn you'd be doing it already expressed. The end is the easiest way to browse safely securely and it's just better express BP and gets rid of all those things you hate about vps, it's a baby and done right. First of all, its blazing fast Lots of other vps slow, your connection to the point where it's not even worth it to connect, but express me,

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have no aim. We have no hope, because hope is always experienced in relationship to a name and if If you're in a marriage or other collective- and you have no collective aim- then you're in conflict because nothing unites you and then you know when when my colleagues and I were developing the self authoring programme, one of things that really struck me to the core. Them too was the fact that you know you said but for a judge more like you, the self monitoring programme was useful because it broke things down. It's like, while everybody needs that you know it took me, ten years of clinical work and training graduates and undergraduates to under stand: how to break down a vision of the future into its constituent steps and that's partly because we are stunningly bout it out in our culture. You no one did some research into the history of the education system to find out why that was because I thought how the hell can we have an education system where I can have top

students have been through fifteen years of school, who have never been sat down once and told right, a vision for your character in your life, and I found out. The education system itself, which was based on the prussian military mortal was, designed designed consciously people who regarded themselves as fascists. This was in the late eighteen, hundreds who wanted and produce? beady and workers who couldn't think for themselves, so hey man, guess what one hundred and fifty years later, that's exactly what we've got and it the stunning fact that people are aren't encouraged well. First of all, there not encouraged at all, but second, specifically there not encouraged to take that time dream and to say to themselves look: ok body. Here's the deal you can you can assume that the word

wouldn't object to dramatically if your life wasn't an absolute bloody catastrophe. A hundred percent of the time and you can take a little time to develop a vision about what you wanted now you said, you know you discovered some things that were actually somewhat difficult to pursue. You know you, you had to do up. Your house, you had to give your car, you have move into the woods. You sound like an introverted person to media. Remember your score on the on there, stand myself. Do you remember where you are for extra version? I believe it. I, I believe that it actually showed I was more more extroverted which I can see the innovative side, but, but in time, like I love again is like I found a lot of room as much as I hate like when I in my sales job, I hated sales budgets in numbers and I hated and then my boss about all we ve got to grow. This account this much like to me all that was just horse shit. I just

like to go out every day on job sites in like just meet people from all around the country and talk to him in the innate. Just the He came in because I connected with those people and they said what will buy stuff for me because we like talking to you and that's kind of a yes. I don't worry. I prefer my latest cell ways to make relationships, wealth, I'm not ring like. Are you? Are you do you like crowds and groups or do like meeting people one on one and are you interested in people or do like socializing? I think I'm very I'm interested in people, I think I think my draw two my draw to want to be more excluded from society is because of some of the pitfalls we talked about earlier, like I'd, I may I see here. I find it depressing sometimes to be especially here in virginia like because like this is this is a phenomenon that happens everywhere, but especially on the east coast in like semi rural virginia, everything looks

We need the same now is it's a starbucks and Target in a multi family project and like now all the tat, whatever whatever sort of unique, and diversity, each town had is sort of gone. Everything is just sort of become this. Like retail, This will be a nightmare. You know, and I see a lot of far a lot of farms being bought up and converted into neighborhoods in subdivisions and because far can't make the money that, if they're not through a commercial contract and say I just like it just the press, you see the way the landscapes changeover period of time is, I think that's really what that's all. Motivated me to go and you know even like you like we're here- enrichment filming today, enrichment is a gorgeous city and as such, a deep history. Yeah like it's, not what it was, and then you start, you see a lot of homelessness in these This is evident when you're out,

public that things aren't the way they should be you now. How did you negotiate with your wife? You said you had to go live, however, with the text in the mosquitoes you know he I will tell you, you said you develop this vision, but then in a worthy asleep, when you were implementing it, there were things you had to give up and sacrifice and an you said and you could certainly understand why that might cause some consternation in the marriage. How did you know, goes it doesn't work through it? I guess I I focused very much on painting a picture to her of what life would be like in five or ten years and not what it would be like for the for the five years. You know like we both have a vision of she's, a she's in that mary medicine work. We both live animals and so had this sordid dream and part of this- and this is another like part of what I m excited about. Being able to do again outside of the music is like some of the money that I'll make from the streaming and we want to start some four

of a non profit or a. some some sort of positive benefit toward we have this not to go off track, I circle but yeah. I have this sort of vision and even back then this is what we dream to do doing. We started a five or one three c: five. Oh one c, rescue with a with a friend of ours for dogs and cats. Back then, but it was sort of this idea if we were able to get acquire this property we'd be able to it in the next time. for ten or twenty years, be able to do what we really wanted to with it. And if we didn't do that, if we stayed where we were, we would be more costly Oh and things would be better and then and there run, but really we would be looking back in thirty years, really regretting that we hadn't done and that sort of that sort of the way I push it to her and she was able to kate. Ok, you know

and it's really cool. You know I can find a parallel in it in that, like now that we're sitting here talking, I can find I've been watching your exodus series and I can find a parallel in that and your story and your sort of do you do a job of it part of which inspired me to get back into scripture. The way I have because you ve done a great job of finding the practical the scripture and presenting it in a way that its very easily understood so much of the bible is interpretation and trying to understand the deeper meaning and things and so yeah. I can, I think, like it just it's important people- and this has been said many times in many ways, but it's important for people to whatever it. Is. It really tugs at their heart strings whenever that sort of and you know maybe it's lost through the education system by like as a child. We also, we all have these dreams at whatever it is. We want to do in life. Seems so limit lesson. It there's some. potential, and it's like you, ve, got to find a way to just to face that fear, and

do it no matter what yeah I the worst thing you could do is I was on called hell on earth that I just kind of together, it's a an android recording, but it it a remote sort of women, as is this idea like you. a lot of people die and go to hell before they ever hit. The ground is one of the lines in the song, but it's like people get stuck in this sort of monotonous work. The let me drive work down the interstate and get piss off inflict everybody. Often they cut into my lane and go work this stupid job that I don't like. So I can come home to stupid house that I dont like and pay is, as I can pay all these stupid bills that I dont want to pay, and it's like down inside of them. There is some sort of ambition or pursue that dave. But maybe they ve even forgotten about the subconscious, has such a weird way of holding on the things that sometimes even our cognitive memory. It can't recognize you know so For me, it was like just I didn't

a dying not taking them chance, you know you only get yet what time is it precious like it it's like wait. We live for a long period of time, but really eighty or ninety years in the grand scheme of the world's existence is just a blip on the map and so like. We do have to take mean you don't know if you'll even live to see tomorrow, so yeah you do have to pursue. ever. It is that you feel compelled to do in that when, when the times their air, all right. You got about ten cool things there, so you mentioned accidents. So one of the things that happens in accidents is that moses is being a shepherd right, he's off with his media night, father yes ruin he's married, what jets, daughters and he's away from Egypt he's just minded his own business and that's when he's wandering down the pathway by mount horrible, which is centre of the world, its jacobs, louder, it's the place where jack would plant his being that rate that stuff is to have an inch reuse that symbol consistently in the vital anyways.

That's when he noticed something off to decide that glimmer. And glitter, that's the burning bush and he would continue just walking down the path, let's say, as a relatively satisfied shepherd were made. dissatisfied, shepherd buddy decides to go investigate this thing that attracts his attention. Right now, the key aspect of the story? He decides to go, investigate attract his attention and has its closer to it. He understands cities on sacred ground and continuous is pursued. God himself speaks to him right now when Moses becomes a leader, and that's that The story, that's the same of life. As you know, you said people are all tangled up in the ninety five and they're, not panic the attention to anything but immediate practicalities. Even their dissatisfied with them and their ignoring. What's calling to them,

all right so Moses doesn't do that and then he develops a vision. You know and that's the vision of the promised land and everyone needs a vision of the promised land because, as we already said, that protects them with anxiety and gives them hope, and then you talked about what you do with your wife now when little kids play house in this particular area, interesting to me, because I used to play house with my wife when I was like eight you know- and this is how kids play house like if you are a boy and your plane house the girl to play house properly, this the rules you have to, come up with a vision that you offer the girl or she has to do the same to you. She should they have to say. Well, look. Here's. The house, you can maybe sketched out in the ground or we'll pretend that this you know playground structure is the house and there's the door and there's the rooms and you be the moment, all be the dad and here's we're gonna play out happening and the girl has to say yes, I'm on board with that and then you enter the same fictional landscape and you said

noticed. You have to do the same thing with your wife. It's exactly the same. Damn thing is that, once you develop a vision for yourselves, let's say in your imagination: thats: what kind for you to you, it's based on what you really want. You have to that vision. Then you have to say to her look, here is what I see five, it's down the road? And is there a manner in which what you see in what you and vision- and that was say, your wife's concern for her out for animals and so on? The joint interest you had not? Is there some way that you have a vision of five years down the road that we could bring together? That we will both be three to play out that we can commit to right and so that visionary practice has to extend within the marriage and then you get play house and then you get the play and that's a hell of a lot better than beating each other up, and you know you enforcing compulsion, while those are the options right, as far as I can tell its slavery tyranny

or negotiation. And if you negotiate in a visionary way, then you get to play and if to play. Well, then you're, not in that hell on earth that you describe right, you're as close to the opposite. Is you can get so what these we manage that successfully and so on, I presume, and what is your wife? What does he have? What do you think about the way this vision is unfolding? Who is this in the present moment, she's she's varies like what, Neither one of us had any idea that any this would happen. The way it did with the music, but as far as the yet were excited were excited. It's the last feed. The last few weeks. Have so difficult to interpret any thank her she's gonna she's pregnant. Now it might well be. My first saw not got. I've got two daughters

and so this obey my my first boy so like we do. Couple weeks have been spent more about trying to figure out what we're gonna name, the little rascal than anything else, but yeah like its, we our and I think for the next twenty or thirty years is- is very similar in what we want to do is no, we want to make sure that our children are brought up in a way that they get to experience nature and it takes to get to have somebody imaginative and. And, like you said, even just some of the playful nature that children have, we don't want them to. We wanted do what we can to try to protect them from being so institutionalized at an early age into sort of this system that you describe and the way modern education work, and we want them to be able to pursue. But you know like we're very excited about the opportunities with our children and with our family, and yet What do we have this vision of.

I don't know exactly how to work out. There's a sum. There's a model very similar that robert Kennedy junior describes called a healing center, but I think we want in bred animals until it is well aware, is, but we want to use our property, maybe even try to purchase what a piece of property justly does nonprofit, but I have this vision of sort of creating a model that can be replicated that involve, It's regenerative agriculture people that are suffering ptsd and mental end and people that just get not a rehab and there's there is Is that show that working- that was hard work in general helps anxiety and depression, but then beat being out in nature doing it like. I think, there's a there's a place over in italy that that does this that and that takes kids in the end then have depression, anxiety and suicidal thoughts and I'm sort of some on this vineyard for a period of time, and it's got a very high success rate in seattle, have a vision of trying to take whatever has been

it is from this end. We want to sort of light a fire, maybe that will hopefully light Fires in this can become something a lot bigger than just what she and I want to do. You know with our world, but he s about trying to sort it wait we get. We both are very like minded in that and sort of that, bigger vision, it it did take some time like it's. You knows difficult very difficult for anyone in today's society, including me, I mean I'm justice, like anybody else, but it's hard to. Sometimes it's hard to. How would I say it. It's hard to take away the immediate gratification of whatever world you're living and now in this conference, and being able to sum up what those to decide for something that doesn't even exists like it's, a tarifa ass, a terrifying thing that to make that led by Another is well look. Look, it is leap of faith and you have to you have to have

first of all, you have to have faith to do anything because you can't do anything unless you have faith in it in so maybe you have faith in your ninety five routine and you think that's the best that there is in bad faith, because, like you said, you might be run over by a bus tomorrow and who the hell knows. What's going to happen, you're gonna put you faith somewhere. So then Question is where should you put your faith and one answer to that? Is security or hypothetical security, but that seems to me to be a stupid answer, because there is no security, so then if there is no security, then where do you put your faith? And then I would say what you put your faith in what beckons you know, and music perkins to people and beauty beckons to people in art and justice in truth, like these eternal verities, the path. of heroism beckons these call rate, announced the burning version. You have to put your faith. something because you're ignorant and you dont know everything. So you have to take the leap, and you know

it sounds to me that one of the things that you and your wife figured out is that you should take a leap into the unknown to the spot. The back right and those are those things that called you. You said unconsciously that won't go away. That won't stop bugging you, like germany, cricket. You know your conscience, calling you too, that's what you're supposed to put faith it that's it. That's part of the classic representation of god, the judeo christian tradition, like god, the voice of conscience. That's the profit eliza establishes he's not out in nature he's not in the thunder is not in the earthquake right here. At Gaia he's not even the cosmos. God is. Back and steal from conscience and what cause too You ignore that at your peril in europe song. You said hell on earth is like hell on earth is where you go. If you don't pay attention to what your conscience tells you into what beckons and that's the truth and also the case? You know if you get, angled up into that,

routine? You hate that industrial routine. Predictable industrial, generic, routine and you're pissed I'm going to work and you're, giving everyone the finger and your reason Full in bitter, like you're one step away from wanting to turn eddies everything into hell, just to get revenge for your miserable life. That's the same. You came by the way, because its keynes descendants right kane, better and his keynes descendants that first make Friends of war, you know in the aftermath of descendants The thing that happens after that two things that happened after the story of cane enable right fratricide and then the degeneration into murderous news is the flood the wife's everything out and also the tower of babel, which is this terrible technological. traction that you are referring to this terrible generics you know, mindless generic spread everywhere. The pause, a mere technological solution, attack the chronic solution to every problem knows:

to various forms of Hell. This is very real. You no one. what's real enough to base your life on. I believe what we are experiencing today, like. I think that what you said exactly what happened today and when I look at report wilkinson in democrats in twenty twenty three, that's what cs, I see people who are and angry and disgusted with a system that isn't serving anyone correctly but instead of us being in the same way that in a business someone with a what more more conservative mindset in someone with a more liberal mindset could use entrepreneurial and traditional and organizational skills to build a strong business, which is what we should be doing in our political climate in our country. We were you, our bitterness as a weapon against each other. You know it. it's been interesting. I think

Obviously, a lot of people under stand. What what it is, I'm trying to say or what my messages within the song, but it has been interesting, saying both sized also attack me miss interpreting that I'm identifying with the other. You know, I've had well like four sample. I've had even recently. I've had some conservatives give me great for me The comment that that stronger or something to the eye. This was in the middle of a concert was, I think, I said the strength through diversity which really resonates on exactly what? What that point is that we need to have people that think differently use those strengths to work together in a way that makes us all stronger. But I think People are so used to hearing that as a sort of a left wing rhetoric that they immediately identified it as that and then they and then on the flip side, I've had the left very much, He means being sort of this right wing, far weighing whatever you know, you ve experienced this yourself, but at some point

gotta figure out a way to we gotta figure out a way to tat for us as a just outside. Society. Maybe I find a way to leave out of that, like what were what we're facing in today's world is much bigger than than that that that's It is important it is important that we have politics and that we have stem in which we decide how different ideas are implemented in the government, but it can't rule. I see there like we allowed it to not sit here at the waist. but we have allowed it to almost encapsulate all of us like it become sort of the ceiling and under which we live under and you have had peoples say that I'm a fence centre in that I I need it have some sort of called action, and I get like, if there's anything that I would respond to that with given. opportunity we have now it's like. I think we need to take a step back and

ray invasion. What we want the next twenty or thirty years to look like, and there is an important first that pay the mine. This was- and this is an matthew, twenty two sergeant thirty, four, but it's it's the pharisees are questioning Jesus on like her, because and throughout the bible there are contradictions. Obviously, in the and people have different corn forms of opinion in different ways. Things are worded even throughout the bible, but he says affairs he asked Jesus teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law and Jesus replied: love the lord, your gun, with all your heart with all your soul him. With all your mind, this is the first thing latest commandment and It is love your neighbour as yourself and like simple, as that is, if we could find a way to make those two commandments,

even outside of religious boundaries, just if we could, just if it learn to make that our priority and then base our differences beyond. low, that you know, like guy here are for each other here and then below. That is try to find a way to integrate our differences in a way that everyone can can lead, a who I like it would do Would resolve a lot of the conflicts that have become like way over complicated. You know, Kate I think you're. I think you you pointed to in some ways I dunno did called out the most crucial. Most crucial lines in the biblical corpus, but its damn close, because what happening in that story, as you no doubt knows that The pharisees describes the lawyers there. Kind of the political class there, the privileged class in what we are trying to do is they're trying to trap Christ

who making a heretical statement, so they can kill him centrally or at least throw him in prison. That's plans, so they set up traps, which is exactly what the question, is and he does this incredible sleight of hand which is a mark staggering brilliance instead of take the ten commandments, which are the law right, Moses, establish law and saying, while this once what they want to do, is say well number for this most important, because then they can say: well, you don't number one through three or five through ten is important, and so it's off to prison with you buddy and so they think they ve dropped him because they put him in a place where there's nothing, you can say that won't get him in trouble. And what he does. This conduct a little revolution ethically right then, and there and say well, if you re those ten commandments and you- struck did out the jest the essence. It would to fall in? One of the essence is, is that you should put

the thing that should be at the top at the top. God announced the logos and that's that truthful speech that when uttered changes, stability into the order. That is good. But the logos is that to be at the top, it's the same as putting freedom of speech and religion at the top. It's the same idea and that that love of god, then becomes the expression of the fact that human beings are made in the image of god. That has to be and then alive that crisis. So that's the vertical dimension like the vertical dimension of mount Sinai. That's the vertical dimension! You look up the aim up and then the horizontal dimension, the collective dimension, is you have to stand that everyone else is a reflection of the same. Of the same divine value that characterises you. Yeah decreed everyone, and I've been trying to work through that. Technically and it's like I, I think there is any difference between treating yourself properly

and treating other people properly and part of the reason for that is purely practical. It's like this way you very badly outnumbered there's one of you and eight billion other people so if you must treat other people, if you put yourself first, that is going to come to haunt you man in a way you can't possibly imagine where? Is it By contrast, you treat other people as if there is valuable. Is you in every interaction you have people are gonna, be so thrilled to have you around that there are going to be extending you these same luxury. Constantly and so perversely, by stopping. focusing on your own narrow self interests and by in other people into the game. Everyone will have more, and so will you and I actually, that's technically true, partly because

You know. You said earlier in our conversation that people have this difficulty They have to sacrifice the present for the future right, and the thing is, is when start to think about the future? What you're doing is saying well, the. The fifty year old me. You know the me that's ten years down, the road is just Important as the me that's here right now, the sixty year old me and she asked construe yourself as a community that iterate across time, and then you have take that whole community into account. And if you do, that is the same as taking other people into account and it's the opera, moral orientation and it's not proper for arbitrary, recently proper, because if everyone did that the word would become peaceful and abundant, and we could live in something approximating harmony and many the problems that beset us would mean.

As a consequence of the better governance that would emerge many of the problems that would then our plaguing us we'd vanish you don't. We ve been working on this enterprise in london called the alliance for responsible citizenship. Trying to develop a vision for the future. Let me, let me tell you one thing about it and ask you what you think about it so we ve been trying to figure out how you tell the real leaders I'd say someone comes to says: I've got a vision for the future, You might say, while those are kind of a diamond, doesn't how the hell do. I know that you're, not just another manipulator. You know It's for your own narrow purposes. How do I know? I can trust you I've been trying to work through that, so here some possibilities. You tell me what you think about their soap. would say if the person whose developing the vision is trying to impose their vision on you by force. Then there good leaders.

They're trying to terrify you into adopting their vision, so they use fear. Then you're, not good leaders, there, good leaders if they offer you a vision, like you offered your wife, which is here the possible game. What You think of it Would you like to voluntarily play? If someone can do that, then there are leader. You can trust me you know assuming their played a straight game, and so the rule is if the person is using power and compulsion or fear there Their vision is unreliable and so I think that's even true. If there is a crisis you don't get to terrify people have to invite them So what do you think about that? What this? What's your first response to that yeah, I think that. I'd say that it's is obvious that it at the core of. Of anyone's motive is really there. yeah. It's either lover, hey it's! It's either that

nothing then off? It's obviously benefiting people that people are excited. Both themselves it. But then there are a lot of things you see implemented that are at issue can be very well the skies, but at their core they are fear based in a like. feet either in a sense of intimidation or in a sense of maybe false sense of urgency. Like you an experience that myself now this with my career opportunities like you, ve got. Do this now it's perceived in a way that supposed to be helping me, but it really is a fit. It's a it's driven and it's driven off the human emotion of fear, and so I think that's that's the way to To ultimately understand, if some, if something is like, in your case, If something is, is journey, when an authentic everything is what yeah human emotion. Is it being driven off? I visit being driven off of off of love,

an ambition or is it being driven more offers of of hate and fear. It's really that corey everything in the world right, but you say that yeah, trying and trying to decide to sack that is a whole nother animal, but that ultimately yeah it is it's all driven off of basic emma everything's, driven off a very basic emotion, I'd say at it's at it's core. You know. well, you said false sense of urgency. You know I actually This even applies in true sense of urgency. You know because that the climate people, for example, might say. Oh my god, there is an appalling The catastrophe pending its real and it's so urgent that here the following measures must be taken now, so we could take that argument we could say will look even if it is true emergency. Let's give you about which is something I generally willing to do by the way, but in any case well for the sake of argument will say: ok, there is an actual emergency here,

still say if your response to that emergency is you're now willing to wield fear as cudgel of power then you're too little a man for the job. Is that if the crisis is tat find you into becoming a tyrant. Then you're facing a dragon that you can defeat and so not the right guy. I think. Even when there is a crisis, you should leave. People with and hope, but not with power and fear and that's a way of distinguishing the real, the real true leaders, let's say from the false prophets, so to speak, absolute, that's how it looks to me I grant you so I wanted to ask you. I want to ask you about rogan. Just his curiosity he went on his show, I've been there three or four times have got to know Joe a little bit. What was that like for you and what do you think rogan and I yeah I love It's really call is just that and not like us.

I've met so many of my heroes, I guess you'd, say they're, all this very down to earth. People like which is right, is refreshing to see that the years. horror stories about certain people presenting a sort of care, in relation to the world of being one thing, but then behind closed doors. There's there this sort of like minded it's egotistical creature, that is, approachable and not really human lichens. Oh yes, I said but yeah I love rogan he's a. I was impressed at his The way he does the way he conducts its businesses harry streamline and its yeah. yeah. He has, as a small staff, he's very straight to the point with everything it's like it's to see- and I think that's what's brought him the successes. that he hasn't he has it turn. In the sort of this

it make it a lot, bigger and and quote unquote better than it is, but he keeps it very just simple and real and so yeah he enjoyed meeting him. We had a great time when we were that was my first time off the east coast, so we were in austin obviously and we did the jargon, pakistan and that night car connected Tom cigarette is another great, like I can't say enough. Nice things about palm He invited us to the mothership to what we thought was They just hang out made every body and we only flew one get hard us and I was scared to fly my ass. To fly my resonate or guitar there. I just figured somebody would steal every we get crushed or something, and so we only fly I get guitar, and so we had one. we get to the mother, ship and Tom man. You really ought to get up and play a few songs at the end of my site is hidden. I would say now so on sovereign white was there? And- well yeah ron white takes my guitar in his car fly

the cross town life not even necessarily figuratively speaking, but they they get to his house and back in a short period of time. five minutes before we go up, and so we went up and dishonourable ass. He was just anything. Out of a weekend was even on a monday and tuesday was this incredible time we had their eyes It's one of those insanely fun, yeah, yeah I was want one of those times the everyone we met, including rogan. This good good down, earth people, Yet, every time I go to sea rogan- and this is really the it's like I breathe a sigh of relief when I get into the studio because, first of all, his insanely funny and that's always such a relief, but all I know perfectly well that I'm gonna talk to someone for three hours and I'm not going to have to be have my snake- I open- you know- lookin for serpents because wrote rogan is just exactly who he is and kill push back any houses. Opinions

he's a hard headed bastard and all of that, but he's not like us he's not a fairer, see, you know, he's lay in traps for you to step into, so he can look good at your expanse. He doesn't do that and it so a bloody relief to talk to him and I'm sure that's, that's it. Each part of the reason that he is so successful is that people can osterman you know is for, I can tell that trust is warranted because every single situation, I've seen jovian and I've, seen a lot of situations and some pretty intense ones and challenging once he doesn't get edgy? He isn't it. statistically doesnt defend himself he's just like com. And together and probably fighting background- is helped him without too you know, I'd say it's hard to intimidate rogan, yeah, yeah, so yeah another market for joy was heart is lying. That was part of my thought. Says going through this, like I questioned whether I should even do a podcast at all, because I'm not I'm not a public speaker but

you know. At least I guess I'm not relieve in a musician I mean our first in our first paid. Gig was the for the far market. The bait, the big farm, are good, a thousand people's, that's kind of like. Maybe I am appalled that I don't know what I am at this point, but I remember a right, but you have to find out within those first Couple days of everything blown up in like we were getting flooded with requests for interview and podcasting. Remember telling my body- and I was job- is Joe, like I had no idea- would turn into this, but I say it. I want to do Joe rogan for my introductory and I wanted Jordan petersen like decide on all of this, and then I'm gonna call a good, and let that be that and so like here we are, I mean it's, it's crazy. It's still surreal that you and I are talking like it's so funny. I tell you to talk since we're talking about my wife. Some do and I mentioned this on Joe rogan- then I drove her crazy listening to camping with steve Youtube videos at night before we went to bed, and so I got the meat camping with steve. He and I connected and talk, and you just awesome, but

She doesn't know your name, but she would get in praising as any time in the house like cooking dinner, doing anything, I've got a lot if a man on and as iD say: are you listening to philosopher man again, but I'd listen to your stuff for hours every night, and so it's just elegant. It's just crazy that we're sitting here having this conversation, but I told her at the It has gone on the jordan petersen pike ass. She said, george peters, as you know, a philosopher man, they have to apologize to her for me, That's pretty buddy, it's pretty funny all right! Well, heeled us! Well, that's so interesting while it so interesting to for me to see that you know that you develop this crazy vision a few years ago, and now these surreal things are happening to you and I actually think that's how the world works. Man I think the world has ever dreamlike quality too. You know, which is why we dreamed, try to figure it out and that your dream

call to you. I mean that's what the psychoanalysts taught. I certainly learned that from freud and more even from Karl you, you know that your dreams, You can dream the future. talk, that's how the future comes about europe, its either you either dream the future or you let it turned into a nightmare doses. options: And so you dream the future by asking yourself what you want. assuming that you're trying to take care of yourself, and you do that in a way that brings other people on board. You know what this arc enterprise in the uk, we're trying to develop a vision that that people here, they think geez. You know I I'd I'd, make some sacrifices to be part of that. I put some work into that they're, not true hit me over the head with a casual and you're, not trying to me they're trying to invite me to the table right there, invite me to the discussion and that's really what were praying and metaphorically and literally to do, is to say look man if we got our act together,

If we were all visionaries- and we told the truth and we cooperated properly, there's no way. make the desert blue writers there's no limit to the problems we could solve. We don't to run around like chicken little claiming up the skies falling in put all these limitations on ourselves and do the third world to penury and starvation and assume that there's too many people on the planet, we could just shoulder? Our damn burdens and walk up here properly and fixed the place we can do that. Him and if we don't worry, we'll get what's coming to us and we ve had Happened a couple of times in the twentieth century and that wasn't so pretty and so hopefully will be smart enough. God, I were smart enough not to do that again, that its is there verses in is an that talk about repetition throughout time there's, always yes that same that same dry in force in that element that created

the soviet union and created so many nightmares before it and after it like that, still is just as much present today as it was. Then I am it's like if we don't like what you have to be proactive in keeping that that that that now, That harmony there is like the political climate in the world we live in now is benefiting a handful of people and it seems that handful of people was doing everything they can to keep system in that sort of disorder, but if it's somehow of people put in your right and it's like you, talk about, imagine the power of him. the power of imagination, you, nobody really is the truth. It's like if people could just figure out in their own space how to make things, in her interest, even have a vision of things being better and we end just a certain amount of people. Did that like that's all it takes and then allow yeah a lot of E. This problems that we talk

like even in politics and all, but almost would almost of himself, just inherently from here from that young people taken responsibility. While that's right well that the there's another seen it accidents without actually laid out. It began, as part of the principle of subsidiary, which is a core element of catholic social doctrine in a fundamental element of genuine conservatism, which is that If you build a hierarchy of responsibility, so individual may It familial community state all of those levels and every single level takes its responsibility There is no reason to have a king and theirs Desert right, but Then the rule is something like this is every bit of responsibility that you refuse to take on your own behalf on behalf of your family, let's say or your community, that risk

on civility will be taken up by tyrants and used against you, and I think what Could it be any different different bright if you leave think necessary job lying there on the table? That's just the invitation for a thief to steal it like. Obviously so yeah you, you taken make a vision for your own life and you take responsibility, because if you don't. Someone else will steal. Someone else will steal your destiny. Someone else will steal your soul, you know or It might be a handful of people or might be the dread spirit that driving their greed and that's something whose hands you do not want to fall into. you know, you'll end up on the The hell, you know or contemplating are committing suicide or torturing people and that's probably that's, probably not division. You want to pursue. That's for sure. because it's very contain alright, sir. Yes,

energy is very contagious ya like if I may, think about. If you is, let me just go back to work going. Our conversation about commuting on the interstate by the edges Somebody else off in that it's almost like they hold onto that in any event, whether they do it consciously or passive aggressively at some point, maybe it's to their boss and their kids or their coworker. But then they kind of pass it off on somebody else, and it creates this. It's everything's very much more. It's very kind, did in a way that we don't really see on the service levels. Now there. Yeah. That's for sure. I had a vision of that here recently? You know so people think I'm just one person in math. the billion you know. What can I do, but Imagine this merging the globe k with points and then all those points or network together. You know case are now imagine you're one of those points on the globe. Now when you zoom into it from adduced it's that point will be the one that

closest to you. You know so it looks like it's. The top of a kind of a rounded. Like a rounded pyramid. That's a way of thinking about so you you're at this. Enter of a web of a thousand people cause you're going to know a thousand people. Well, in your life at least, you can have an influence on them and then thousand, are surrounded by a thousand each, and so that's a million people, one, listen away from you and it's a billion people to to people away from you- and I Where are you? Are you in the centre of the world? In that way? You a thousand people a million people and then a billion people that centre, and The thing you did do echoes and the world set up like down so we're each a center where we think we do echoes a terrifying thing to realise right, because that means whatever happens, is on you. I was reading. This dostoevsky calls the other day in writing about he said his father. There is awesome or who is the Spiritual guide of sir, I think it's

a emotion alyosha, whose ammonia minus monastic novitiate in the brothers karamazov, which is a great book and saucer motels alyosha. You responsible? Not only for everything you do, but for everything everyone else does and you think Jesus that's a completely absurd proposition. But then you think you know well Think about it. This way, man If you were really, if you were the worst person you could be in that to think about. If you are the worst person you could be, you could produce a lot of Helen misery. God only knows how much alike people would be worse than they are because of you. at one. Maybe you know infinitely worse, but a few the best person. You could be a lot of people who are bad wouldn't be nearly as bad as they are, and so, when you see all this misery around you and these miserable people, you gotta, ask yourself. You know how much of that is a consequence of the things that you left. Undone

The things you ve had a man, if you have any sense in you, really think about the battle. Terrify you write to the bottom of your soul and that's a good thing. It's a terrible thing Is it necessary thing and that that's why I just them the more I have it. The more I thought through sorted even just what it is he said now is there has to be something you're an honest and righteous at the top of our focus collectively. In order to maintain that. That's it I'm so the rights really be. That's that's the importance of that's the importance of having of, eliza guard at the top of a structure is the only. I say that purity in that honesty being maintained collectively among a group of people but yeah it's a great way as agree. I think provider. Well, I like that

yeah. What's a very good vision, a water, and I think I think what you closed with. There is correct, as far as I can tell like: that's the insist. Lee repeated message of the biblical corpus and all the works of wisdom. That surrounded is that you have to put what's up appropriately damn it at the top and not is something like. the sum of all that's good right, the sum umborodom its that's a definition of god, its truth and beauty, injustice and mercy, all you it into a single character. way of thinking about character, you're supposed to embody and put at the top, which is the same as celebrated worship. Yeah. I think that's right, look wishes I guess it's. A hundred and seven minutes into this. Ninety minute poured Caston but here was really fun talking to you so it is good to meet you, and I would say about congratulations on your success. Congratulations on your desk

in your vision, congratulations to you and your wife for haven't enough sense to knock your heads together and come to something meeting a consensual solution and to getting over your resentment. Ten and. You know they haven't you dreams come true and is not a weird thing that they can actually happen. for sure the ads so, I'm excited not easy. What happens in the future and likewise with you, congratulations on even your recent success and I'm excited to see, I know that you're you're in said a lot of different battles inside wish. You the best of all her keeping my prayers, and I hope we will be able to keep in contact moving forward. yeah well relation with you, well there's something exciting about having an adventure. That's crazy enough, so you literally don't know. What's going to happen next mean that's that good way to keep you beyond your toes and not resentful. It's like what we think

Possibly now that's a real adventure. Man yeah no kidding alright help for everybody watching it listening. I'm gonna continue talking. Oliver anthony on my on the eu to our new data wire plus side of this platform. This interview, we're gonna talk. a bit more about autobiographical issues, which is what I generally do their thing. To the film crew here in florence for making this possible today and for daily one plus for facilitating it, and thank you very much talking to me today and good luck, keeping head straight through this crazy. This crazy sallying forth that you're embarking upon by everybody. Thank you. The