The hello everyone watching in listening today, I'm speaking once again, because we ve done it before with playwright journalists and political satirist. Andrew Doyle, also known as titania mcgrath, we discuss The intentional irrationality of the far left doctrines that use religious rhetoric and practices, despite the absence of god or perhaps the presence of a different god? there are paramount desire to dismantle societal structures, regardless of need or merit. The argument.

transcendence inherent in the pursuit of art and how woke culture stifles genuine expression, forcing dogma to take the place of fundamental truth and say purposefully doing so, look forward to it. Well, mister, durham, good to see you again, I think we're we're damn near friends, or at least I like you, I don't know what you think about me, but failings very much mutual jordan. Thank you. So much ass. Well, that's good! Well us reprehensible types. You know we need stick together. Can we do That's for sure. So, the first I thought I'd hassle you for a bit first term. I got two things to house: will you about? I think the first is sesar near Wikipedia page for whatever that's worth, that you regard yourself does as left wing, and so I think you deserve some harassment for that, but also I like I don't know what the hell that means anymore and then after I've done

Can you about tat? I thought I'd bore the about having a phd in early renaissance, poetry and ok, the humiliation complete. Ok, let's start with the left wing thing. Ok, yes! Well the first day. I'd say that wikipedia is full of errors. I wouldn't trust, absolutely everything you see on Wikipedia. However, on that score, I think it's broadly accurate, and I know that I mean I've. I've never voted for a right wing party. I did vote for Jeremy Corbyn, which to go ass. I now regret, as you heard, I think, if she put were too, I'm with you. I don't really know what left wing or right wing means anymore. Think the culture war has in fact obliterated those two designations. I really do believe that, because you know, if you were to write down my views on most subjects and sort of given to an impartial Server and say is this person on the left

the right has think. Broadly speaking, most of my values would fall into what traditionally would be considered left wing. I think I have some sort of more conservative. When it comes to culture and education in the arts. Perhaps but that's the same as someone like you, oh well, he was very much a culture conserved him as well. As being a socialist, I think, economically speaking, I do believe in fair, disparate fair, proportionate taxation of the wealthy. I do believe in the welfare state all of those sort of what I believe in sing economic inequality? looking up working class people, social mobility settled

he's? Gonna things I think, would traditionally be deemed to be left wing, but I think what the culture wars effect to be done is its substituted identity group identity for the notion of class and money, and what that now means is that people who described themselves of the left wing on nothing of the kind I mean most of the activists that you see that the disorder most vociferous cheerleaders of the critical social justice movement tend to be well, let's put it nicely quite posh. They tend to have quite plummy voices, double barreled names, they're called things like Hugo ponce within sage, willoughby and, and things like this particularly the case with environmental activists. You know those people glue themselves to van gogh paintings in them, and Is that your David, whatever it might be when they talk they almost like a caricature like that Think I would have invented as a joke of a kind of and have the in fact exactly exactly well. Titania Mcgrath has that

I am because she's very, very well off as part of the joke with that and part of what I find so funny about. So many of these activists is that they are bleating about the oppression and persecution and privilege and they're independently wealthy. If

they had everything hundreds of them on a plate. They're not in the preamble did Andrew. You know you look. I noticed this when I was teaching it was at harvard out an ivy league school, obviously it so all of my students were the top one percent, obviously, and if they weren't at that moment, they were going to be by the time they were forty. So at worst they were top one percent in in now. What would you call? Infancy airy go, and so you might think that be good enough on the privilege side. But it seems to me that there is a small coterie of very noisy people for whom being rich and privileged is not enough. They also want all the victimization privileges of being oppressed, because then you can have bloody. While everything can't you and if you are a narcissistic psychopath, then everything is what you want and you want it now, and I want to just follow up on out a bit with regard to this left wing issue a so you know, there's there

About a dozen studies now I want to write an article about this, or maybe even the borg is about a dozen studies now looking at the personality, predictors of left wing authoritarianism and so from nineteen from the end of world war, two till two thousand and sixteen social psychologists in particular, and that's rather dismal discipline, denied the existence of left wing authoritarianism. Outright. It was only a right wing phenomena. Apparently you know meat, stolen and mouth notwithstanding, but it started to switch bit in two thousand we need to study in my lab. First of all, showing that left wing authoritarianism was a code you can identify a coherent set of beliefs, statistically that were associated with so called progressive causes, allied with the willingness to impose them using force, fear force and compulsion thats, not about deafening

of left wing authoritarianism but they're, not a number of other studies, have come out in the most interesting ones, concentrate on what is known as the dark tat track and the dark tat trap is a group of personnel. Trade that were to evil to make it into the standard personality mortals. They were excluded by fear to begin with, manipulative ness, that's machiavelian ism psychopathy, which is predatory paris. It is narcissism that was the original dark cat triad, but that wasn't bad enough. So the psychologist tad add sadism due to fill in the last quarter and the correlation between dark tab drag personality traits and left wing authoritarianism is so high that it and obvious that their distinguishable- and so I sit out and go ahead, and is it not similarly high months rightwing authoritarian? No, it's not

the different guy, I think, are a terrorism. Yes, it look what I mean clearly laid out yet you know, but the focus at the moment. I think for of all anybody who is willing to use fear and compulsion and force, is likely dish to also be characterized by those dark. Tetra rates, but I think the additional pathology that emerges on the left- and this is something we can discuss- obviously- is that you have to be a particular kind of evil snake to mask you ah psychopathic power mongering in the guise of compassion, and I don't think the right wing authoritarian do that they bore come right out say like you, I'm gonna take. Reason you have, especially if you're a group I dont like, but the left wing types they say, while you know really, I'm your best friend, historically speaking, is not necessarily the case. I mean you know if you'd, if you take the example of the third reich and the and

Let's see that that was underpinned by a belief, a sincere belief, a sort of quasar religious If that what they were doing was for the good of society, however apparent we might find it look fair enough and I know perfectly well that in the nineteen thirty, for example, as the nazis march towards the death camps, their prey mary rationale for thee. regional implemented Sure of youth of you nature, so to speak, of mass killing was compassionate euthanasia, but then I would also say- and this is something we actually dont know- that the nazis were national socialists and their political stance. A weird mixture of what we would think of left and right wing. Now, right I mean there was the there is the fascist component that follow the aggregation of power at the pinnacle, corporate and governmental and media all of that right. So that seems kind of right wing and monolithic, but it wasn't like they were it wasn't.

There were socialist elements in the platform as well, and so we don't know enough to sort that I would say maybe on the statistical side, but doesn't all of this sort of point to the fact that not even the fact that my contention that actually thinking in terms of left and right when it comes to he's kind of redundant. I think it away you you ve sort of italy. I got exactly that. The debate has always been the struggle between libertine authority, and so are you know? whether I left wing or right wing. I think I think I'm probably just liberal. I think there were libra. People on the left. There are liberal minded people on the right among libertarians, it's not something that is tied to left right worldview. But when I hear people talking about how trying to frame the culture more in terms of left- right or to say that the culture, nor does it matter in their more important things. Actually, this struggle between liberty in authority, which which John Stuart mill talks about his book on liberty, George Orwell has written about this, that that's the thing that matters and the recognition that that there is an authoritarian impulse.

Humanity that there is an enduring appeal to authoritarianism, whether you come from the left off and the right. This is a george orwell's, go back to your ie tackle. This is well its precise to the region. why, when he wrote animal farm, he couldn't get it published for so long, because people are horrified by the possibility that left wing people could be authoritarian, and what he was saying is that this is something that that that doesn't it ate it it's, irrespective of of left wing, You or a right wing view, and I think, although you might be able to pinpoint psychological differences and tendencies among on the left. You haven't authoritarian bent and those on the right. You have a similar authoritarian bent. Perhaps it's more useful just to think, particularly when it comes to the cultural, In terms of who believes in traditional, Brill values under that mean something very different in america, liberal values insofar as individual autonomy, shared humanity, freedom, freedom of expression, freedom of of of the press, etc.

those kind of liberal values you can do whatever you want with your life so long as it does not impinge upon the rights of others that something that left and right can agree on, and they did the social justice war is whilst they call themselves left wing. Really. Their movement is characterized by authoritarianism. They opponent logical. That looks on quite well, not just what it looks like a quite explicitly. I mean the early critical race theory text, I explicitly say I mean if you read them Derek bell or he wrote an essay called who's, afraid of critical race theory. He talks about how critical rice theories have always mistrusted liberalism there. see them from the liberal project as having failed, because we still live in it, society where, where racism exists- and they take that as evidence, that liberal It doesnt work rather than right, because the previous societies were so non racist right. It's exactly. They don't understand that point that that that day social liberalism is about an ongoing process is about recognised

we live in an impact of a world and trying to do our best with a bad lot, and the problem is that that authoritarian tend to be as well kind of utopians, even though, in the case of the social justice act with, I don't think they got a clue sense of what their final ideal society would look like the at the moment. They just seem to me to be on a sort of rampage of destruction. They probably because that is what it would look like is what it would look like just arise. Always they aren't that hitler gaunt exactly what he was aiming out. He shot himself. Well, we Europe was burning and its lay. I mean a thing for you to god, fundamentally without that that was because he was the personality type. That would other everyone was torn down, rather than he fails. but the thing out without zune cisely yeah. Well, that is the dark, tetra type man. That's right, I mean he's deeply. He was deeply narcissus. Dick you know you poor people with those lectures late at night when no one was interested. I it was all eight,

It was all about him. One thing that comes, very clearly is of great biography of hitler by encourage all want either Much comes out about is this. Guy was an analysis. and when he knew that the game is up, he wanted everyone to pay. They're all loud narcissism right there, man. I am absolutely right when he said that you know I mean near the end of the second world war. He went when the russians were advancing on berlin yeah. He continually expressed his dismay at the uselessness of the german people who had failed him jessica exactly and those who had found

Finally, on the east in front of his perception had failed, even though he put the militarism, an impossible situation, couldn't take any responsibility for for his own mistakes, but that kind of nazi. I don't like comparing social justice activists to hitler. I think that's that's their trick. That's what they do. They call everyone hitler, but I think you can definitely see that combination of narcissism and also a kind of religiosity intolerance and yes exactly what you say, a desire to destroy, and you know that if we can't get our way, we'll just destroy everything. Ok! So, let's, let's talk about that, I want to use that as a segue into and I haven't tortured you about having a phd in renaissance, poetry, yeah I'll get back to that. I want us to use that same way into the religious issue, because you wrote a book here recently make sure I get title exact. Right. The new puritans, how the religion of social justice captured the western world, and so we can talk,

religious issues, I've been thinking recently along the religious lines. Let's say that what we are seeing is just the modern manifestation of any turn battle, and that battle is laid out first, very early in the biblical corpus in the story of cain and abel, because what you have in that story, is two modes of adaptation, which I think roughly parallel, are kind of demented narcissistic authoritarianism and a kind of risk once ability laden individualism. We can. We can discuss that, but what happens is can enable make sacrifices right and that's what people do when they work. Because work is the sacrifice, the present to the future and human beings. Uniquely work, I mean maybe beavers work and bees, but look it essentially you beings. Uniquely work were willing to sacrifice the present for the future. Now what happened

in the story of cane enable is that kane appears to make bloodless and relatively low quality sacrifices, whereas enables all in and the consequences is able gets rewarded by guy and everyone loves them, and things go well forum and cane. Nothing goes his way and then instead, noticing that maybe he has something to do with that. He calls got out for creating an improper cosmos and really puts him on the stand and god, says I look body. If you got your act together, things would go, For you and the fact that their not might have more to do with you than me and cane thanks to hell with you, god I think I'll, go kill your favorite and soda the story and that's one hell of a brutal story. And then you know keynes descendants, including ok and which is about four generations down the line there

the builders of the tower of babel and also the first people who make implements of war so there's an idea there that that there's a resentful and better revengeful spirit that preoccupy mankind and that it can spread. Out from the individual and take out the entire polity, and I can't help but see a reflection of on the intellectual landscape. Now, in the political domain I mean, I think now, I'm curious, but You think about such things, because you have described this new movement let's say as religious. So you know what do you mean by that? What do you think about these more metaphysical speculations? The bible is a route of wisdom, inspiration and spiritual, nourishment the hollow up and powers you to explore the bibles profound teachings into effortless, incorporate them into your daily life. A great power,

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We're about and that they are effectively full for the the linguistic tricks I mean you will know that the the culture war is largely about who gets to define the meaning of words. An activists often use was, but they mean the opposite. They call themselves progressive, for instance, but I believe I believe that they are regressive. They call themselves liberal, but they are deeply illiberal. You know they're in favor of censorship. And authoritarianism. They they the screen about fascism, while they themselves are using fascistic tactics such as violence, to sign as political opponents of that language unless you understand where they're coming from and analysed understand that there is a belief system which is largely tied to unfold survival, claims which depends upon a kind of coterie of high priests, dicks from above, but you're telling the masses what they should believe and punishing those who descent

as all the hallmarks of fundamentalist religion, at least the idea of excommunicating heretics, a source sniffing out, heretic searching for them and and are doing the metaphorical equivalent of burning them at the stake, which is what we call council culture. during their livelihoods, destroying their reputations, a kind of merciless brutal and vicious quality, which none the less dawns, the guise of compassion and righteousness You know, I'm I'm, I'm sure that police and and Innately cruellest, sociopath throughout history had probably been attracted to the priesthood, because it gives them the opportunity to ever be a figure of authority to enact cruelty the same time to be validated as a principle that important member of society. So I think it does like very season scribes, the rights of people exactly I am not suggesting for second, if you take something brutal, is inquisition and I'm sure that's a lot of those people involved, felt that they were doing.

God's work and genuine. He thought they were on the side of the angels. But you can be damn sure that there were some psychopaths who were attracted to those positions of power. So when I'm saying that the route I took about the religion of critical social justice, I'm doing so to try and make it accessible, I found that, if you just because it is so baffling to everyone, most people are completely baffled because for a start, they have their own kind of esoteric, language, this terminology like heteronomous activity and toxic masculinity in sis gender, at set your words mostly? Would you don't even know what I mean, but if see them as if you see them, it's kind of a biblical script or religious text. They do if they foundational holy texts such as fuca when Judith butler and things like that. If you make this analogy to religion, I think it makes the movement comprehensible and I think, in order to defeat it, it has to be comprehended and I think most of you so competitive. So, let's, let's, let's try to get up something that might approximate

definition of religious. So this is how I've been thinking about it. Technically, so imagine that you see the world through a hierarchy of presuppositions which you have to because you are fundamentally ignorant, you have to presuppose things in order to move forward because you don't have infinite knowledge. So you have to look at the world through a hierarchy presuppositions, then you can imagine that some presuppositions are deeper than others, and what that would mean is some presupposes and very little very few other presuppose since depend on, and some presuppositions many other presuppositions depend on right sort of like it's like citation depth in the scientific literature, and so Freedom of speech, for example, would be a presupposition in a liberal paul. the upon which almost all other presuppositions rest. So if you move you're moving the depths, so a religion specifies the deepest presuppositions and they have to be actually Matt.

because that sort of where your ignorance bottoms out you have to say, I hold these things to be self evident before you can proceed, and that is something the exit, the existence of a deity as presented to us right right, ok, so that's the next day she saw her. I read a lot of Karl you years ago in and very italy, and one of the things young said about protestantism, which I found remarkable. He he criticised both catholicism and protestantism. You know, as a friendly critic, I would say pointing out that the the temptation that catherine, says it might fall prey to his one of centralizing authoritarianism and the temptation that protestantism falls. Pray do is fraction aiding individualism. He said the logical conclusion of the protestant revolution is that every single person becomes their own church, and so it looks to me like

It's happened and what's happened and psychologists have abetted this and even the great clinicians, I believe, of abetted this truce, regardless of my admiration, for them by substituting the self for god, and I think what you have especially on the psychopathic narcissistic fringes, What used to be the laughed- and you see this on the right as well- is the the momentary, self, elevated to the status of god. We see them no for lot- which I think is why I mean you ve, you been, by the narcissism within these kind of movements, but also to the pity with which they resort to religious. in, or religious ideas or religious modes of expression, for instance What do you remember when them was it outside a netflix women, a protest against day chapels show, and that was that click comedian protesting with a sign? That said we like Dave or we like,

I think they had signs like that and one woman cornered him and it was all caught on film and she screamed repeatedly in his face repent mother- she said it again and again and again- and I mention that in the book, because I love that that sort of combined the combination of rage and religiosity. I think, really encapsulates what the movement is is all about. I think in terms of the presuppositions of that movement which it takes as axiomatic. It's not supernatural. Okay, it doesn't talk about the deity, even though it has its prophets. I think from the the french press structures of the nineteen sixties, but I think it does have certain axiomatic presuppositions such as there are power structures that dominate society that underpinned all human interaction, and these are based on the notion of group identity and that that is how society needs to be understood, as for co talked about grids of power.

through society power not being a top down phenomenon, something that sort of aid is, is latent within all of our interactions and and and behaviour, and then We see that they believe that these activist believe that they can take this apart and understand it and remedy the wrongs society so long, tat they and identify where the power structures lie and who is exercising privilege at the expense of the oppressed. That's why and critical race. Theorist admit that it was put like this in James Lindsay and Helen pluck roses book that the the key question that you ask, if you are a critical race theory is not a theorist, is not how did racism take place in the situation, but how did racism manifest in this situation? Yes right, so it's almost a ghostly spiritual thing that is always there. I think that's one of their that's one of their major precepts. The well then well so so.

Another way of thinking about that from the religious perspective, a mean milton satan is a enough or a tarion narcissist, and he rules over hale and so he's a figure that is very much analogous to MAO or to stolen right to he's someone who climbs the most pathological possible power hierarchy and then regards himself as a victor, even though he's actually the biggest loser, and so so Satan is the spirit you might say in the judeo christian tradition who rules the world by force. Now the post, modern neo mark this types believe that there's nothing but power, so I can see that there is any different than a certain christian heresy that rose in the middle ages, making the claim that satan himself was the ruler you're right, because the notion areas that power itself, the only or at least the ultimate motive,

and while motivate or is the right way of thinking about it and so and then it it there's? A lot of things follows from that right. One thing that follows from is that there is no such thing as free speech, because there's just conflicts between different claims to power and that, if you promote free speech, that's just an indication How conniving you are to use that entire philosophical language to do nothing but trust your own colonialist power claims. Yes, because that their theories, always it you cannot position where you can't win. You know it's similar with with critics. this theory. They have that the notion of interest convergence in november, who say well. There are extremely successful blackened of it in an in our history, Barack Obama say someone like that. they will say the only reason that those people have succeeded is because the aid was in the interests of white people took for them to succeed. In other words,

if a black people around you married right, so black people don't succeeded, cited as evidence of critical racists claims, but if they do succeed is also evidence of their claims, because our interest convergence, so they keep putting you in this kind of situation. That's me, to be religion without, as in religious belief that has not been It has mainly been asserted rather than proven, that the fact that way- on the very notion of rationality, enlightenment ideas, the fact that they think that those things are even parts, and they also see that through group identity, that is just the product of some dead white man parry wigs. So how do you understand? There still seems to be ok, so we figure we ve got a couple of what would you say contenders for daddy one would be Satan himself right, the spirit of power the other would be the untrammelled he don excels that something like that. But then there's a weird there's, a weird paradox: they're, not the paradox, bothers the postmodern types that

group identity is paramount, but full what would you say full licentiousness? On the personal front, and the granting of every whim on the personal front is also requisite, and I dont I can't quite square that coherently like how is it that we radicals to push forward the notion that group identity is the only identity but also push with the notion that everything possible to be permitted every individual at every moment, but but Put your finger on it. When you said that the the paradoxes don't trouble, the post modernists, you know it's sort of bill into their whole idea wendy? that was writing. He was trying to writing coherently you know the mouth overdo, it did manages absolutely unreadable. So let me let me try to understand what you're saying him

you were talking about the always say this worship of the self image you took that others can contenders for god right, we have power and we have the cells and then, there is out. There is an element of that that it spreads out into identity. Now that the radical types definitely put forward group identity is paramount give me my worship, the cells, what do you mean by licentiousness? What do you mean by? Do? They believe that absolutely everything permissible that any kind of individual. Desire. It is able to be fulfilled in their world. I think there are quite prescriptive outlay about. Well, it's behavior acceptable and which aren't well. That gets extraordinarily complex because it looks to me one of the things I see on campuses, for example, is the insistence on the left progressive front. Let's say that any form of sexual identity or behaviour whatsoever is permissible and not only permissible, but to be celebrated, but now it's complicated because of this

same time right. Every single interaction between young man and a young woman is so absolutely dangerous that it has to be subjected to contractual contractual validated, but I may work for three Y yeah. Well, it's it's a weird psychoanalytic Who is you know that if you go too far in one direction, you simpleton They go too far in the other really monies up the water right. So the really narcissistic types, for example, have an extremely uncertain corps yeah right, but that doesn't make them any less. What what would you say forthright in their claims that they should rule, but I don't have stretchers court, graham

but I am not so sure that it's about fulfilling any indulgence, no matter how depraved, I think it's more about what they call clearing society. I think it's more about if it is in the service of demolishing the sis white hetero, patriarchal structures that are in place, then that is seen as a benefit something positive right should I think you think that licentiousness serves the purposes of deadlines you. What? What about the reverse hypothesis? Is that? Because I would say this might be more true foucault, all the demolition was put or to licence the licentiousness well aware, and this is really a year, I'm not sure by the end of other people will say that, because foucault has, as you know, a very shady past You might say that a year absolutely- and people have pointed out that this seems to be a strong correlation between some of the founding postmodernism.

And shall we say about yet deprive sexual activity of sometimes peter failure, these kinds of things, the question, I suppose you are you suggesting that they created this kind of theoretical framework in order to just that sort of behaviour that we mean. Well, I do you see, I'm not. aye, aye waiver and maybe maybe the causalities interactive, because you couldn't see, I see a lot of stunningly immature behaviour on the radical front from a developmental psychological perspective, so, for example, a law of the behavior. I see looks to me like on socialized to your old behave, two year olds are highly two motivational an emotional whims in the short term and their incapable of developing a shared frame of reference that doesn't help until kids are three and aggression.

If the two year olds, who don't develop, that by four, never develop it in their entire life because they become alienated and they don't make friends and they can't further their development. And so you could say if this is sort of a friday and in like you that part of what we are seeing is the expression of extremely unsocial ized, immature motivational, an emotional demands fragmented with, without what would you say, temper tantrum, like insistence, constant insistence that those whims be granted immediately, and then you could say, while the entire power critique has been erected by on the intellectual front, just to justify that although you could also reverse it say, no. The licentiousness, which was the case You are making the licentiousness is promoted, because it's real, loose neri in a sense and it can be to demolish these, so called traditional powers to prison,

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a plus rating, with the better business bureau and thousands of happy customers text shorted to nine eight nine, eight, nine eight eight get your free info kit on gold, again text, jordan to nine eight nine, eight, nine eight when it has to be because they just have so many impositions and other people's freedoms. They have so many is that what is acceptable and what is not acceptable, particularly in the arts or in in film, in plays in books that you know they're there for censorship. They believe that things that are the work, the horrible words they use problematic and they like to problematize things. So it can't be the case that they just believe in a kind of global free for all a copy that, because I think they they come across more like pharisees to me than than anything else, but maybe what you describing in terms of the temper tensions in the things that we see from from these people is that that is just simply the natural consequence of when you have decades of academics and figures of us.

Pretty soon that we ought to prioritize our emotional responses on our own subjective, you at the end of the world over objective epistemological framework, did you know that there are around jewel practical responsibility. I mean I saw an ice at the university of trot. It was one of the things that constantly made me Morally ill was that my idiot compatriots thought that the best thing to do with young people was to teach them to protest. Rather than to help them figure out how to make them their way responsibly and productively. I must state that we, that is, they ve created, duration, that our environmental I mean where it is evangelize world, and we see it in absolutely every strand of our culture and politics as well, and it's because, as you say, academics by and large are activists first and academic. Second, you know kind of pluck rose trend, traces out to the what she calls the applied turn of postmodernism late eighties.

No post modernist for many years. Where were quite enjoyed, theorizing and frolicking about coming up with these airy fairy ideas, not applying them to society, not seriously saying we should reconstruct society and apply these methods, and then they applied the apply post modernist that are actually we. We can. We can actually change society revelation society through the application of off untested theories and highly contested berries, and they did it, and- and what's so tragic is not- I mean is, is that it eventually working away now in a situation where our government, over here the government, certainly better and in the u s they are implementing these idea. These these highly contested theories in in public policy, inadequate in the educational, yes they're, making the mandatory. Well that when I know that was what propelled me into the public domain to begin with was the first line sort on the true too liberal government front. But I made a speech

But that's. Why surely does merit the analogy with religion because while imposing on society ideas that are not that are are based on belief simply based on belief. You know there is no evidence of that that reorganizing society in the way that the critical race theory would like to do to so that we have a hyper Shall I society that focus is first and foremost on your group of identity and secondarily on who you are as an individual, there's, no evidence that this is making society less racist oh yeah, that's always seem to. We seem to have agreed that the deal I for demolition and destruction rules para even over the desire for untrammelled personal, say self expression, I think that that is inevitable when you, when you come from

supposition that societies inherently broken, that it is under girded by power structures that only support the already privileged. That's ok. So, let's, let's dive into that, because this is this- is a good place to further and terror the last issue, so you know a lot of the people that I talk with Russell brand indian Joe rogan, Brett Weinstein's. Those are good Eric Weinstein's. Those are good. Initial exemplars are more classical leftist types. yeah they're identified by the screaming radicals ass gateways to the old right, so which is extraordinarily trusting because it means as soon as you are no longer a useful idiot from the radical perspective your instantly have not which is very convenient for them, but here is the here's the thing the post, modern critique that

society is to be understood, is nothing but the manifestation of power is attractive, partly because, when social rights, months or even psychological arrangements, pathology eyes they do path in the direction of power right. So, you're? U can tyrannized yourself like an overlord inter nice, your partner, contrariwise, your family, your community, you can act like went on on the local nickel stage in their nationally right. You can do that in business as well, and so- and that happens- knowledge of austin. So the there's a core of sense in the claim that power is a powerful motivating force. Now I think the radicals go too far when they say everything is about power, because well everything is a lot of

things and you dont want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but the problem, the problem. The less therefore has if the last is willing to to be reasonable and say well, some social structures or corrupted by power, then the left has to figure out and can't, because I asked like fifty senators and republican and andor congressmen, on the Democrats side to do this, if your left, this stance is that power corrupts society. then how in the world can you tell when those who make that claim? Take that claim to far and I've asked the reason I brought up to the democratic, the senators in the congress, cause. I asked every lefty get my hands on and that's been quite a few over the last five years, when the last goes too far. Even asked Robert Kennedy that recently- and he said, while I'm trying to run a campaign based on unity, and so I don't want to go down that rapid hole. It's like, while the barbarians

you are your gate body. They ve been cancelling you for eighteen years, so so how to separate out this. Well, there are so many things that you raise them. Firstly, you're right I don't buy, that there is a colonel. In truth of truth in the post modernist claims, the power is important. It is significant in human behaviour and society and history. All of that, that is absolutely accurate. And you also right that, where they go wrong to assume that everything is about power, like you say, pie was really important, but is not everything and I wonder whether reducing producing everything to just power structures make things understandable, easier in a way. He knows what we learned. The best predictor in our first study, the best predictor of light wing our terrorism verbal intelligence right, because people one right how is about

only you and those power power is a good, easy answer. Right. Ok me, I can territory any ideology is because it means that you use your out sourcing, your thinking to a set of rules, and I That is what is happening, but that's why? No all those people that you, you ve, tried to ask this question: what happens when the left goes too far, in terms of their own megalomania, a mania. They won't answer. The question because to do so would be to acknowledge that there is a flaw in their ideology is essential for their system. the danish! Ultimately with human beings? That's it! You know think about all. Well, it's the same reason why the stalinist? but the given all well. All these people are left of always hated him for pointing out that the left is just as susceptible to corruption is the writers and I've never forgiven info and it comes down to that idea of moral purity, I'm one of the reasons the new puritans again, it's an analogy is trying to make them accessible. it's because in their world to deviate even site, from this very simplistic formula that they apply to society, to make to give them power, ironically enough, to get to put them

If you put them in a position where they can control other people, but also can control- one understandings comprehend of the world because they ve got this framework through which they can look at it and to decide what action your framework is flawed in all sorts of ways, that's hard because we have to start thinking and they don't want. They don't want it, thinking? Thinking is the death of ideology? I think that's, why you're getting that moral purity, but is also why I mean you mentioned interestingly people like Joe rogan Russell brand been considered a gateway to the all right, they're still traditionally Secondly, are more more akin to the left. I would say that the right, but because they deviated slightly, you have this kind of, a technical sledgehammer coming down in saying no You're you're you're, straying from what what our idea he says you should believe, and that to me also feels like a fundamentalist religion

it was like you know, within a fight and I'm making the distinction clearly between religion and a fundamentalist religion, because I think, even within catholicism, the vatican has always encouraged debate, theological, debate and discussion. It's not as though they just give you the catechism and say that's it. There's there's all these kinds of discussions and debates and nuances being teased out in theological thought theologians for centuries have I've done that, but with fundamentalist religion that doesn't happen doesn't happen with isis. For instance, you don't go sort of leaders of isis sitting round cross legged in their caves, saying it I, let's let states decide whether we write about this fine theological point that doesn't happen. So what scares me I think about the critical social justice movement is that they are like a fundamentalist, really and for some reason- and this is why- and you know this whenever you meet one whenever you can encounter them online, getting to some kind of discussion you what their opinions are. Absolutely every yes, yes, yes and I like it, and a crank on someone dad I've. Never

surprised by them. I'd like to be surprised once in a while. I've had a few occasions recently where I've gotten to converse. You know I fall for it. You should just block them, really cause they're, not people who can be reasoned with, but every now and then I take the bait, and I say: okay, what is it you think I've said What is upset you? What is the perspective that I have that you disagree with em? Why? And they can't do it. They just come back screen in nazi whatever, and then you think, okay, but I shouldn't have bothered trying, but they, but they they never surprised, but I just wish they would, because if you're not not thinking for yourself and challenging around ideas, if you're not coming from the basis from from humility, if not coming to the world. on the understanding that you're probably wrong about an awful lot of things. I don't think you're fully human in a way did you like an automaton, you know, you're just noticed said you just following is a code you screw possessed by a principality

I I I find that I find that stuff, okay, so so let let me let me hassle you about something else. I I tweeted out about how to richard Dawkins here recently and I talked to richard Dawkins. I actually I actually admire richard Dawkins. I liked his book or his books. They taught me a lot some of his essays too, and I think Dawkins is a real scientist in, in that he believes there is truth and that the pursuit of the truth was set. You free, which five ways religious claim, but he still believes that in any case, I also I think the dawkins and harris and the rest of the new atheists helped pave the landscape for this new woke catastrophe, because it's a humanistic movement fundamentally and it's radically anti science, and I think that darkens, while I know, dark and sees that because I've been watching his tweets- and I did talk to him- and it's certainly the case that the woke mob, I think, can take out science

more easily than they can take out the vestiges of judeo christian thought, and there are definitely going to do that so now, now darkens darkens and his coterie looked out the history of the west, and they said well. We should dispensed with. Medieval superstition and we should progress down the enlightenment trail and I've talked douglas murray about this. Now, the problem with that, it seems to me so young, said something very interesting as well that all bring up. He implied that catholicity with all its strange mysticism in dream, like propositional structure was, is saying, as people got like that that, in order for People to function psychologically unto exist together, socially the beliefs, that united them had to have a dream like quality, ok, so, and that now that the new

cs types would say well known, or we can replace all that mumbo jumbo in and darkness and occult mysticism with we're added rationality. But what I see happening instead- and this is on the religious front- is that in the aftermath the death of god. What we ve seen re emerge is either a form of worship of power or degeneration into a kind of polytheistic paganism, not a move we're doing light, enlightenment type darkens, I now be quite the contrary, and so one of the things I I'm curious, I know murray is, is uncomfortable about this. Douglas Murray is uncomfortable about this if they woke Movement is a religion and if it's a dangerous religion is the alternative to that no religion or is alternative to that, whatever might cause

You genuinely religion want, and what do you think about that? Well, I think there is clearly something within humanity that we require a certain satisfaction from some kind of belief system which is outside of ourselves or sense that there is something beyond ourselves. I spoke to my colleague transcendence. I think there is a need for that. I think that I get that through the arts. I think that Why we create things? That's why we are creative beings, which is also why I think the woke movement is threatened by the arts and seeks to curtail it and actually to transform it into just another propagandized tool, because it fundamentally doesn't understand what what art is. So it is interest to me, though, to have noted that the new aid movement, one that you describe they seemed now to have evolved into the most woke of all that it is the hue

it's all right. Yet that's there's something about them that they bought into gender identity ideology very quickly, probably before other bodies and then the humanist deciding the uk now is fully paid up in that really crazy. Religious belief system, the idea of a a sex doll, gendered soul that doesn't match your biological form how is that anything other than than than religious than? Actually, how is it? other than supernatural. Really, you know my thing worse. So why? But that it has been interesting to me that those are the very people the people were talking about rationality in two to sort of control, back the primacy of enlightenment values. They are the ones you ve been. Susceptible of all. Of course, this is what has got Dawkins inter right. That's! Well! That's that's! A stunningly, devastating observation, right if it turns out that those who wanted to walk down the mass enlightenment pathway? Yes,

children who were most susceptible to walk in the oligarchy. That support damning bit of evidence for the validity of that approach. As far as those I mean yeah on track, look out at where what because it also, it always is always concerned me that some of my most intelligent friends and acquaintances have fun and for the white movement. In other words, you talk about the fact that they have a lot of do It was a very infantile in their behavior, and yet some of the smartest people in society seemed to buy into it. It has the capacity to infect everyone. It is perhaps because it isn't responsive to intellectual rigor, it exists regardless of of that and I'm right and I'm that begs the question of why it attracts the intelligent types that you're describing may look it originated in the bloody academy. It didn't originate, I'd, hypothetically, originated not only in the academy but in the core Are you count me that was occupied with the humanities racism? So obviously

appeals to the intellect, let's say, or is it just that we're all we all have the capacity to become a to do four hysteria. Is it possible that we, just all I mean, like my book, opens with a discussion of salem the witch hunts in silence? and one of the key things about that with the more I read about it, and the more was fascinated by the fact that it was these figures in authority with the ministers, the judges it was the highly intelligent in the community who were the ones who are pushing this. I mean the girls screaming and crying which and pointing in saying that the devil is everywhere and they seem people signed the devil's book and all of that kind of thing I see those girls, as analogous with the screaming anime activists online. You just shout nazi everywhere. They see nazis everywhere the girl soul, which is everywhere. I see that as well very similar, but We have gone away if the ministers and the judges said no, this isn't rational, you're wrong the ear

with. There's no evidence for your claims. We have to move on, but they did. They went along with it. That's why people ended up being executed is when figures in authority capitulate. to the screaming at the children you ve described the children. The activists has children the activist themselves, I would put it are not the problem if they roll out there with them these names, it's the enable us it's it's the politician. Ok, all right people in charge. So one of the things you see as the biblical corpus unfolds itself symbol. Glee is an emerging relationship between the figure of cane, and so that's that bitter figure whose who's out for revenge and the figure of What would you call it untrammelled intellect so, for example, very rapidly after the cain and abel story, you have the story of the tower of babel and you see, there are emperors who are complete

to replace got right. Their building towers that are whenever higher dedicated on the proposition that they could build a tower. All the way to Heaven starts like Jacobs lad. And thereby replace god. Then you We know that the mill milton's metal asians on Lucifer lucifer. is that what the highest angel of god's heavenly kingdom, whose gone most wrong and he's stellar example of the other traveled intellect you know when I came to see this in the new atheist movement to its like, were so smart that our theories can replace the transcendent now you're way. Out of that, I think you just told me your way. Out of that is you involvement on the aesthetic front with the arts write about it, how did I think Whatever tat, there are two way up, there's also humility. I think I ll come back to that point what you're describing, is hubris and and and that now that something which is which is common particularly

when, among intelligent people, I think right right. Absolutely it's! The cardinal sin of the intellect is huge us exactly, but yes, the arts, I think, are or were, I suppose, our way out if they are sustained, because they, satisfied that human need to to understand ourselves and to explore ourselves into it, interrogate our existence. Is it so important, therefore, that the the odds aren't curtailed in the way that they currently hoping? So let let me ask you a question about that. I agree with that. I mean I see that the signal power of beauty, especially manifested in music for me, speaks of something that is truly transcendent. So here's a question for you so is there, are super or that unity at which the arts aim is that unity not equivalent to the monotheistic spirit

This is a major question right and I'm not I'm thrown out of major question is a major something makes the arts the arts right. It's there movement towards beauty, what beauty and unity transcendence, but the arts unified, they use. Are they the manifestation of a unitary spirit, and I see that you every spirit, is what I think is the antithesis of power. I couldn't professed to know, and I think a lot of people have attempted to define even what art is, and I think pierre right by old I've always liked Zola definition of art is life seen through temperament. The idea that what the artist does is attempts to at present to you his view of the world, the way that he sees the world on the understanding that we see the world differently, and there is something quite beautiful about that about. Spreading nobody to seriously, but it's not just variety. You know, you know it's not just variety, because there are qualitative distinctions between

presentations of world view, so mean dorothy. Escape trumps, fifty shades of grey because, yes, it is a hierarchy of rank right and the greatest sardus occupy the highest rank, and that is what tills or towards that transcendent unity. I think something like that Well, yeah, that's absolutely right ingenious! Isn't it you Jeanne? You asked how I tat that's how the cannon is formed with economies Edith. I think academics like to think that there, once you select what is in the cannon the colonies form through influence through to what extent other great artists borrow, and image right were an innovation that fact That's right! The reins depth of presupposition that I was describing earlier. Yes, the more than one d mental. A text is the more other texts depend on it, but the They do the reason that artists do. That is because, obviously, people's, like Michelangelo brahms dickens, shakespeare dostoevsky. All of these are clearly

The pinnacles of human achievement they're achieving something that that most of us simply cannot do. All we can do is look in awe at what they have achieved and other artists looking or at that and try to come close to it, or at least opo in some cases of extreme genius build upon it and that is right so lady who lives, arguing something fundamental or there's a cardinal. While there is a cardinal observation, because the hypothesis that you just put forward is something like the purpose of art is to what would you say, to provoke the emulation of greatness and that that's based on the hypothesis that there is something transcendent. That's great! you know and that's that unity that I think that the arts are striving to word. And yet, when I don't know, I don't think it's conscious like that. I don't think that we dont, I don't think so either, and I all I can say is that artists. I think greatheart provokes something of the numerous in right

and whether that's religious or spiritual, o, godly or whatever I don't know, but it's some. I think it is sort of by definition right. ro know what I mean is like yeah. Well, if that's not religious, then what is dogma it. Sir George, just on the experience shows front. Yes, I suppose what I mean is it? Doesn't it doesn't points the existence of god necessarily adjust? It just points the existence of something beyond ourselves that we require in order to have a saturday three life. I I sounds a lot like god. Ok Well, I'm not running the definition of you and you know it now. That's the thing now, because it is a matter of definition. You know like I. I don't think god. is transcended unity that I've been tapping towards. Here is something like The central animating spirit of mankind at it's best- it's something that now you might say well. Is that real and that's not a good question because you have, you can

that question, without bringing in a priory set of presuppositions about what constitutes real to bear on the question, like is the same reality as the materialists atheists claim real probably not know, but that doesn't mean it's not real it just means we can't agree on what constitutes real. While we can agree on what constitutes a woman, so that's not surprising. Well they let, let's suggest then that oh, let's agree that the the the the critical social justice movement is essentially godless. I think it is. It is godless. It doesn't Have it has no yearning after that sense of the numerous, and it has no capacity to produce it? That's why no great art has ever been produced. from the can you can you name a single woke activist who has produced a great work of art in any? medium or any genre, because icon think it also? That's that's an interesting. That's a very interesting observation. You know what is it the gospel statement by their fruits? You will know them so if they be

we're nothing but bitter fruit than you might think, they're worshipping the wrong god or in in your in. In your case, there are no god but right. That was your criticism of the woke types. I think they are should power as a god, but whatever we're close enough or not, so we don't have to discuss it. So, let's talk about our front here because, like I see the scientists in mode down like grass, under alone more by the woke activists, and that's going to continue. Does the scientists, don't have a political bone in their body and they have no idea what's come in for them, but I am particularly sick by the bloody artists, because the We think they have to offer. Is this connection The Turley luminous, that's true cross our foreign trade. They point today luminous and their willing increasingly to subordinate? did the ology order remained silent in the face of this onslaught to to MR their moral self righteousness, yeah I got a red, hot and our own throats it's horrible to watch its horrible to witness, because genius artistic genius can only come about by those who can think outside the box. You,

who not conformists. Ultimately, this is a move in the direct demands, conformity, an artist of all people, once we're going along with it? Now, to what extent, I suppose that yet and they let me they must have always happened because people artists have to get on with the business of living back in my ear, any more than the renascence peered in the area that I study for my doctor, you have patrons yet patrons of the arts in society would effect to be safe to william shakespeare, for when, when, when king James patronized william shakespeare company the kings men, it went from being the lord Bill is bent the kings men and he said that they were patronized, but they think it right to shakespeare could write whenever you wanted right that they did the great patrons the ones you don't try to steer the arsonists and why I mean sure you would get, for instance, at the start of the checks. These narrative poem, venus and adonis. You have this this is sort of a sycophantic passage about the about the person to whom it is dedicated. Henry routes, Henry reads the Earl And- and that's because

They also needed to live at that point. He wasn't yes, a rich man at that point he became very, very rich ultimately, but at that point he wasn't so artists do require. And in order in our day and age, in order for an up an artist to be employed, they have to satisfy a set of demands by the gatekeepers of various industries. theatre, the publishing industry, comedy industry, television executives, commissioners, all of those kind of things. The problem is that at the moment, all of those people are entirely captured by the woke ideology. They are all its foot soldiers or at least a even in some cases. I suppose you could call them it's clergy, and so they make these demands to artists, and I suppose you are independently wealthy. What choice have you, in other words, what this thing does? Is it.

You know we can't all be a van gogh living in complete poverty wearing whatever the hell he wanted. Well that that's a very that's a very sympathetic account, and I have some sympathy for that account. Yet, as I've I've seen, people. Many many people who have been who face the threat of cancellation, yes and are terrified by not least often because they have a family to support, let's say but this, but so let me we pushed back on that little bit and you tell me you think there's any flaws in the so called so look as far as I can tell your best bet in life is to play the most transcendent a strategy and cause you're gonna pay. As for what you do, no matter what you do, you're gonna pay. In fact, you're gonna pay the ultimate price. What you do so you know screwed in the fundamental analysis. Now that means that you're, the fact

you're gonna pay means that you're always confronted with a choice and the choices to say what you believe to be true and take the consequences or to fail to say what you believe to be true and take the consequences. Now. People we'll say why dont want to speak right now because look at the consequences, and I would say well, that's always why people have lied throughout. History is to avoid the consequences or to get something they don't deserve, and so I couldn't say from judgment perspective rather than the mercy perspective. Especially to artists is like I don't give a damn. Your financial need, the old the thing you have to offer the world is the purity of your vision, and if you see provides that, while you're here, the goose that lays the golden eggs and you might be protected in the short term, but they're gonna, for you in the future. The maybe a lot of these creative people are thinking to themselves. I will play the game as far as I need to say that I can establish myself, I can make my own artistic choices,

Yeah right doesn't work. That's what the faculty did. Said over and over as they rose up the ladder from graduate student to professor well, So I have ten year old, brave site, that is how it works. I know this, because you're more predictable case, so you do not do that so why didn't you do it? Who sat? Look I'm eight completely, share your sense of dismay and put 'em, particularly from artist. You know, I think yes, the world. The world of academia is rather more careerists, I think, and so, although I think it's just as an unforgivable, it's more understandable, I think to be an artist. You have to be the kind of person, Whose sole filthy is to your muse? It has to be that you're, not really an artist in any serious sense at all. You have to be created. did what it is, you are personally impelled to create whenever drives you- and you know there are some people,

he would have them in history. William blake is acutely willing. William blake was poor throughout his life died in poverty. and he could see all these mediocre people playing the game and becoming rich, but he couldn't do it. He was too much of an authentic artist. He wasn't, he wasn't able to that end, I wish all artists could have that. But the other thing about that is actually very few. People are great artists. Most people are sort of peddlers of popular cultural. You no kind of functional hacks but you can produce the entertainment that actually we do really need and require that, like I'm not trying to denigrate popular culture, I think it's really really important, but it's not the same as great art right. So they it is a pop music. I really enjoy pop music, but I don't pretend to myself that it's brahms, you know that we have those hierarchies hierarchies by the way which the woke would like to tear down and say, all about the implementation of power again and the implemented implementation of privilege, they will say: there's no difference

between aid. There's, no such thing as quality, not note know exactly exactly because what about subjective feeling and they say that there is no difference between an elton john song and a beethoven symphony. They'll say: there's no difference. There is just about. And to pretend that the result is a problematic in and of itself, and that's why I think there are two things. The way the artists can really be supported in this partly comes from academic academia, partly comes from literary, fairest and people who, by the way, I think of completely lost the plot, but they need to retain the primacy of the canon of them. in common they need to say. Actually there are some works of art that are greater than others. They need to be able to be bold enough to say that, rather than stripping away chaucer or- spare or marlowe or whatever, from the cannon to make way for mediocre. It is. You happen to represented marginalized groups, identity

I see and now again this re emergence of the spirit of cane, because cain maginnis medio, kerr artist wanna be and part of the reason for that. Maybe isn't so much that your talent less, although that might have something to do with it, but that you're on, to say a true word or to paint a true brushstroke, you're too cowardly, so you're not going anywhere. Okay. So get near tasted unresentful, because you're sacrifices aren't being appreciated by god, and so you do well, if your kane, you destroy your own ideal right cause, that's what casey gain says to god. My punishment is more than I can bear that's a very ambiguous phrase, because you can't tell exactly what it refers to, but as far as I can tell what he means is, while I've really spent my whole life miserable and jealous, because I'm not able and I want to be more than anything else I've gone and killed my own ideal. How can I live, I've

I've killed my own idea. Well, that's what these bloody woke woke artist want types are doing just even the woke this predates the woke Harold bloom used to hit the great literary theorist used to write about the critical theorists, the identity, theory and theorist of the nineties as being the the theorist of resentment. That's what he he called them. I think that's exactly right. It started way back in the sixties with feminist rights, is trying to problem attire rights such as the age laurent saw norman, Milo, whoever it might be. Ernest hemingway whatever saying that these writers us said system in what, when I was studying as an undergraduate for english richer will you basically got the highest marks? If you problem is high text, if you went through a play and tease out, the homophobic element though, the racist elements you'd get rewarded almost like you were kind of a kind of moral detective and I think we'll start bear. It goes way back the pilot. Well then, I would, I would say, that's part of the full hubris of the intellect. So you have these right. I can rate

creative wannabes in english departments, let's say instead of worshipping the spirit of shakespeare, which is what they should properly be doing in transmitting that to students they elevate their critical cooper the over and above the creative capacity of the artist lay moral claim to the integrity of their arguments and then propaganda eyes to the students and who pay fifty thousand dollars a year for the privilege, which is why about humanity, because that is the only the only sensible or intelligent approach to shakespeare is humility? certain similarly, you know when we saw recently the publishing hat, which publishing house was it that we decided to rewrite peachy woodhouses novels paid. You would house is the greatest comic prose scientist in the english language. The idea that a group of twenty something activists in publishing house think that they can write better than woodhouse things. Can improve his work by the sword. Errand is bold rise, virtually morally more of course, morning

oh based on so it's so infuriating. I mean it makes me very, very angry, because it's the arrogance of that that I find it. I find absolutely stunning, but similarly without actions of shakespeare. So there's, so review the other day for a production of Julius caesar by the royal shakespeare company by all accounts. It's just an dense, terran mess, it's just its taking the play and just reshaping it to promote vogue fish. He is that our fashion at the moment about group identity and the primacy of group, identity in power structures, etc, and therefore their missing, the entire play and as an order and this is why I think it's better to read shakespeare at this point, because as an audience member you you, you are subject to whatever interpretation. The director wants to impose on it and if that directors, really a preacher in disguise. Then you just going A sermon not apply that that seems to me what's up over and over again, I saw today actually

an article about Macbeth cambridge university. Tell your warning It's a trigger warning on macbeth at the university in Belfast queen's university in belfast. Right now, those people are studying you're on shakespeare actually even a secondary modular. They already have a a decent knowledge of the subject. This is like an advanced module where they are to really get it get into the weeds. With this, this great writer And to put a trigger warning, and that is to say that the way that we need to perceive these great texts is through are particularly obsessive, moralistic identity, marian land and that we have to see them as morally dangerous tax potential around remained may only maybe maybe they're exactly right on that front, because if you are awoke propagandist, there is nothing more dangerous to you in the spirit of shakespeare jaw and there something dangerous actually, particularly about beth. I think because in bed I mean, I think the path is one of shakespeare, greatest

is- and I think, one of the reasons why I always found it disturbing, even as a child, even though I didn't really know why I found it disturbing as a child, because one of those that gets on school texts, because it's such a short one, but actually, when you watch it, it isn't like your and I think they created some sort of great embodiment of evil people jago in othello. All london, king lear, lauer, enticed Andronicus these figures, but but Beth is different because with macbeth. you go along, you, you go along with macbeth, knowing that could be you. I think it's the closest away when you you when you write about soldier nets and talk about the line of, enable cutting through the heart of every man. That's me macbeth, because macbeth is like this. This incredible study into old representation, what if we lived in a world where we didn't have freewill macbeth, no is everything he's doing is wrong and cannot stop it from happening and and that's it

like your when you watching. If you watch you good production in the bath, you are Macbeth and you are all aimed at elsinore tax, you're You'Re- that's why that's. Actually, that's actually like a definition of great literature. You know, I think a literature almost always portrays something like a romantic adventure and then something like battle of good against evil, depending on how that's laid out rate. Yet romantic battle of good against evil, ok, but the great literary authors place that battle in soul of a single individual rights, so that each character contains the entire landscape of the cause of battle instead of there being, I'm characters, parsed out as good and other characters passed out, is villainous. And so then, when you sit in the audience- and you experience that- experiencing the divine drama in your own soul and that each letter, let me right, learn from you, say something now you so

I went to Jerusalem with jonathan pageant when persia was bout, the deed religious thinker I ever encountered, and he was a modernist. a good while in so is expert in that domain as well, which makes him a particularly vicious critic. Now of the post, modernist types anyway we walked via donor rosa in jerusalem and what that is as far so If, if you imagine a tragic story, then you embody that, and the ultimate tragic story is the worst pause. Thing happening to the best possible person right. That's like that's the penny. towards which all tragedy strives. You might say, and walking the visa dollar rosa is exe. size, in literary experience, because the point of view pilgrimage so to speak, is to place yourself not only in the role of the of the recipient of all that brutality, but also in the wrong

of the delivery of the brutality right to imagine yourself as the mob as you yourself as the best and who betrays as the like intellectually hubris, dick pharisee inscribe as the hapless ruler of rome. That's all you and that's what literate those like it walks you through that- and I think macbeth and macbeth, an and and plays of that magnitude are threatening to thee woke types most, particularly because they do is require that pilgrimage of moral inquiry, and that does upset the ideological apple cards. So they hate art, they hate art because it pushes past propaganda always executives. That's why the the passion of the christ is the most. Powerful story and the most enduring store that stop not story, but account of the brutality that that we come in. When you read about the experience of Jesus on the way to calvary, could conduct Let us be sure that we wouldn't be among the jeering mobs, throwing the stuff

We can be sure we would be weakened by sir well would be worked on it without do they, because the woke like to judge the past, and they will say that if I hadn't in the anti bellum south. If I have lived in the civil war, I would have been the ones trying to free slaves. I wouldn't have been a slave owner. I wouldn't have been one of those people who supported racial segregation, but of course they would- and in fact they would have been first one so because I can't so, let's all right. So I've been thinking about his mythological motif of the harrowing of hell, so what happens in this ultimate tragedy. Is that what first of all the best possible person is put to death the worst possible people in the worst possible way- and you might think well, that's as bad as it gets right, get closer definition, that's as bad as it gets but you know that isn't as bad as it gets, and that's pretty awful because you know you just I did do something is that if you're looking at history- and you have any bloody- since you think

I wouldn't have been a victim or a hero. I would have been perpetrator because most people were traders, although you know there were plenty of victims, I would have been a bit trader, and so then, when you realise that you likely would have been perpetrator and that you probably are at the moment unbeknownst to yourself? Well, then, you are facing something I that is in some ways worse than death. I think it's hell. I actually think that is that you have to understand that their a part of you that would willingly dwell in hell before you can rescue yourself from it at all. You know, and I think that's what we're called to do in the aftermath of the twentieth century and the horrors of auschwitz too, to wake up and think, oh, my god there's something inside is that so malevolent that to gaze upon it, for a second is to suffer for nightmares from nightmares. Rest of your life, but that that also your moral obligation, and that seems too. What the harrowing of hell is right, it's the descent through there into the realm of malevolence itself and two, and to take that

you yourselves oaks aware that the horror in the milk try to please I trigger warnings to art, sensory, remove scenes, etc. Are they, in your view, attempting to prevent that experience that the necessary human civic experience of confronting the worst possible version of yourself without what they're doing what that's? What it looks like to me? I mean think they're protecting themselves from chaotic complexity, yet that also denies them possibility so that terrible and hope, but, more importantly, there trying to shuffle off the responsibility of confronting Satan, desert? So they I summit, but I mean there's something quite understandable about order. That is an opportunity to haiti's possible. I mean people have done this with the odd forever when, when any one of the most interesting things, I think about king lear, for instance, in the shape of his king lear, is that that was not the after sixteen I, roughly sixteen. Eighty, his version wasn't on the stage anymore.

Was rewritten by a guy called name taint, and that was the version of king lear. That was on, Four hundred and fifty years- and in that version you have a happy ending, have leah come in cradling, his daughter she's been hanged because they didn't they couldn't cope with them They couldn't go it and it's not just its, not just because I think king lear of all his place it represents a complete baron. I mean it is baron, its its pre christian. These godless it this is. This is I haiti, where exactly what you described. The best type of person has the worst possible. Experience spite about. Critics have said: leah is meant to be much loved, the great ruler who is subjected to this endless. All that ultimately ended an unbearable moment. The empty terrible moment is cordelia coming in dead heat, his full has been hanged. simply nihilism it this is this is this is a plea that that makes you say

what if there was nothing else? What if there was? No god what, if being good, didn't matter? What what? If what? If the very worst things happen to the best and they couldn't handle it, so the name tape version with what people went to see and in the encoding it gets married to edgar and it's a happy ending and- and although that seems like a travesty to us, it actually makes sense to me as well. It makes sense why audience go as didn't want to confront them, why with the well, it was also but well because I think I don't think they would, but I think the horrible truth might be that the only to Paradise is through death and hell right and not rely. I'm not saying that with with any degree of satisfaction, but I dont see like because look one of the things I tried to do. I took my studies of auschwitz in particular, but also the gulag really seriously. You know I was trying to figure out. Well, I tried to put myself in the position of an auschwitz camp guard who currently enjoy this job right in

Horrible thing is, you can put yourself in our position and the horrible about that, as you discover all sorts of things about yourself by thereby doing so that you pretty much wish. You never discovered, but the opposite side, and I suppose this is Redemptive upside. Is that if you recognize within europe the source of all malevolence and evil. If you actually do that. If you look at that, then you can transcend it. there's no other way, there's no pretence and so, and I've I've been terrified of this for decades is what I taught my students at harvard and at the university of Toronto said you, you have to take upon yourself the sins of the perpetrator. In order to rectify the catastrophe of the holocaust can only weirdly in perversely. You know the leftist radicals in some debate we are insisting upon that right. They say: well, the problem is as they they put, the Onus on the souls of other people may say: will look you pay

for people. You white people, you? U privilege, group people you're the perpetrator since, like no goddammit you're the perpetrator, but it's really israeli, though, for them to put themselves in opposition and for them to confront that aspect of, her own soul. If we want to call it that, because the hardest thing is the hardest thing, but also they can't do it because they recognize their own behaviour for what it is. They don't see that they are the cruellest of the crew. They don't see that they are themselves capable of all sorts of monster that is because I've seen the well hey it. Also my enabling andrew that they don't see anything like something has to be ok Always believed that if you understood something you find your way forward like I would say that, and I think, my father help me with that in some deep way right. He instilled that in me in some way I don't really understand, but I was I vote been convinced of that, and so so one of the consequences

That is the idea that well, if you can, if you can take it upon yourself to gaze into the abyss, let's say as deep as you possibly can: that what you will see a venture if you look hard enough, is the light. But you know you have to believe that the light is up mobility right. Maybe that's that maybe that's the fundamental axiom of an appropriate faith is the light, is a possibility, and if You believe in the power rules. While how can you look one evil without despair and what are the consequences for humanity? If you have a ruling ideology that doesnt enable any of us to have that experience anymore, because that's what we know what consequences we saw on the twentieth century right, Well, I've many many times when I suppose, then it's not to allow me say that that's where the worker leading us so It is what it looks like to me: well, no, no comedy no art, no literature right, no science, no free speech!

no redemption from guilt no genuine individual identity, no up, no downright just just a desert of of baron endeavour yes with maybe some impulsive hedonism thrown in now and then and yet they would like they would deny there would deny everything you ve just said they would deny every claim that you're making there They would say there not trying to do any of that at all the note that they wanted the about. They want free speech to flourish. They just want to protect marginalized communities within that that's that will be their outcome. She's very I want with my own eyes. The marginalized community argument is a very interesting one. Too. I've been trying to work that, through especially with peugeot you no one. He helped me walk through. The idea of the centre the fringe in the biblical corpus, and so there's an idea. There's an idea, for example, in the ancient geography of the of the, of the ancient israelite times,

the poor were allowed to lean on the edges of the fields. Right so there was a boar or of uncertainty around what would you say, around the demarcation territory, and that border of uncertainty was where the marginalized were allowed to thrive and so There does have to be a centre and there has to be a margin, but if you bring the margin to the centre, you destroy the centre and you destroyed the margin and that that's partly I don't buy, the postmodern claim that its compassion that driving the centering of marginalized, because the that's a serpent needs its own tail and think what we're seeing app and right now on the algae bt front is that the fringe of the fringes devouring the fringe faster than

center even right, because you know that most of the kids who are surgically transitions are what would have been gay to eighty percent yeah right. So that's pretty damn interesting, and so what am I going to think that breaks it upon? I wonder if that's the thing that makes it apart, because there is now a schism within this eligibility huh, I too, as plus whatever you want to call it community which doesn't exist anyway, and the schism is precisely what you describe witches gender identity ideology is not just a anne and a fanciful theory a crazy religious way of viewing. The world is also actively antigay, insofar as it does suggest what. Firstly, it denies homosexuality because homosexuality and gay rights of always be predicated on the recognition that a minority of people are attracted to members of their own sex, a dilemma

start by saying there's no such thing as same sex attraction and then actually, you should be attracted to join oh gender identity. This is why stone wall, which is the uk foreign Don't you bt charity, redefined the word homosexual on their website to say It's the same gender attracted, I wrote an article written about it and I mention Nancy Kelly nor gnomon being attracted other non women. naw man nor man being addressed, and other non bent a guy. Is they re escalation of lesbian? Now is no redress off my own man. It's unbelievable and nancy. Can't you I was still more has said that women, you don't want to. sk glued biological men from their dating pool our sexual, racists or akin to second what about the logical? That's the law drank- and I said this five years ago in a discussion I had to queens university slight. While you don't think this. nation is right. No, we don't worry about sexual discriminate

Should you just lay down on the ground and spread your legs for every comer, so to speak yeah certainly being discriminatory. If you don't like really like. Fundamentally, that is the most I have read this form of discrimination. They're right about the opposite of a sexual orientation is a form of discrimination like she, she says: you're you're, like a sexual. if you don't wanna sleep with someone with a penis and you're a woman home, is that right, that's what she describing homosexuality there, but you say The essential element is itself bigoted that the and that's coming from the head of the gay rights, the foremost gay rights in this country. That's insane the inversions are incredible. You know when I was at school, the kids, the kids were a feminine. boys who were a feminine, that you didn't wanna play football and all the rest with the police called them girls. Did you just girls, you know even a proper boy, you not real boy, that's what mermaids and still more says now. They say you that's what If you start withdrawing this angle, basically probably trapped in the wrong body. Let's fix you like you say I tonight, Ninety percent of adolescence, referred to the tavistock clinic a same sex, are true

what they do and so ran, that's the hand of gender transformation, sex transformation surgery in the world, and the mother is something the matter tehran and the heads of stone wall appeasing apart there totally their day day they feel the same way about homosexuality, iran and pakistan for awhile although not anymore, were funding same sex change operations because they hang gay people from cranes. That's why if they did they get that, then you get the death penalty for being guise. Of course they wanna heterosexual eyes and fix gay people, but I would never have seen this coming. None of us did. You know I've spoken to all these guy activists to come out the time and basically- and there like, we never saw it coming where you live more dangerous now to be a gay kid than it was when I was growing up far more dangerous you start wearing a oh, yes, yes, you look very largely due in pretty good under the? What would you do? It arrived some of the judeo christian fascists I mean we ve, had

if the tender mercies of the t activist types you know we had the government putting in preventing a thing called section: twenty eight where they they said if the teachers couldn't mention homosexuality in schools unless they linked it to aids. That's not great! That's a terrible situation to be in, and so there was that so we had. We had anti gay ideas from from members of staff. Fine, if you were out as a gay kid, which no one will by the way you will be beaten up. You will be bullied yet it would be abused right. But what you wouldn't have is that figures in authority wanting to chop your dick off. You would write and write that so it's much more dangerous. Now that you wouldn't have politicians and the media and the commentary and gay charity saying maybe we need to fix. You Maybe we need to sterilised omitting. Let me ask you: let me ask you a question about that. this is one that's really well, I don't know what of it. You know I just like the stereotypical guy who says he's not bigoted. I have a lot.

gave friends and their people- I really admire. So your lombard, Douglas murray, you, I can t, know no that's, for those are pretty stellar examples. By the way I have a sneaking suspicion by the that the genetic configuration that leads to male homosexuality is integrity, tied up with creativity itself and that's why it sustains itself in the gene pool dies fascinating. If true, cyber because I've always wondered why you have this, this despicable our relations, the best I miss out on another possibility to which is that if you happen to get the balance between masculine in feminine qualities exactly right as a man, you are hyper attractive to women's rights, so that's another possibility right, so you can think of home. sexuality, isn't an overshoot of that target. Now I'm speculating, although I think that creativity hyper, This is a better one. Imagine that homosexuality is poly genetic, but its so associated. The much higher probability of creativity,

Well then, obviously, it's going to be conserved, even though it has you no lack of reproductive ability, as it has to be associated with something stellar, because obviously it would just just you're so and met gay men are radically over represented in creative disciplines like radically. If and if you can get to the heart of why that is the absolutely fascinate by their bedroom, but that was aside, point wasn't it that was it one can we say about here while you well, here is what I wanted to ask you about. I dont know what to do about. This is like. I think that part of the problem that we're trying to figure out is that twenty years ago we we did what we could do bring. especially male homosexuality, into the centre right by by legalizing gay marriage, and- and there are attempting to normalize in some ways now. I think that left a lot of questions on answered. So here's one question is like well. Ok, now, if its normalized, all of a sudden same sex relationships, same sex, sexual relationships,

Where do you draw the line in what the hell do? You teach children and one answer would be you don't talk about sex at all, another answer would be what you talk about gay sex. Fifty percent of the time like I don't know what the answer is, but but it really is a problem and I think, were dashing ourselves Peace is in some ways trying to solve that problem, and I dont know what they held them. This lou motion in the? U s is take your kids out of the school system. That's what the solution seems to be so, but what you think about all that it so difficult, because I think education is at the moment, very very wrong in terms of what the teaching children about sex and gender and said, quality and all the rest of it, and I think gay people are bearing the brunt of the lot of the blame here. you know so- I oh yeah- what's happened As you know, when you have drunk queens working in front of children, ripping in front of me. I don't want any good, doesn't look good and because they have practical soul is algae, beat U I plus years european big thing, then you know this

it is never the homer. Baby- or at least I don't really like anti gay is on the rise because I think they think visit. They think this is gay people doing all this stuff. It's not it's. Gender idea alone, is gender ideologues who have taken over the algae bt community whenever that might be, and as I've said, gender ideology is actively hostile to homosexuality, so gay people on the day, the and the agents of these such societal changes, the victims of it, because now I'm getting from both sides wipe. I published an article in in the mail on them about the pride flag and I was getting and I d piling in on me coding evil and telling I should kill myself, I'm outta the lovely things that the compassionate people often say, and then I was also getting right wing people mostly america economy me a. I say that I was evil and that I was gonna burn in Hell. For my sake,

we're intentions are now we ve got if both sides a great thanks for that that having that's it, that's what the work of done there will be. No, it's not and that's why you yeah night, isn't over yeah. You know that is not over. Yet that's gonna get a lot worse before it gets better in god only knows how it's going to shake out. I mean this, this year's prize, liberation was a whole new, yes, There are no bloody wonder a month really yeah, and all you guys, hot, partly because it becomes a corporate. You know it's a site, yeah corporations, but their flags up every they don't put it up in the middle EAST. in saudi arabia, places like that where, where it might actually make a difference by the way flying that flag web, where gay people are killed for being gay, I know they don't do that, but they put it up here. They never did this by the way before gay marriage before the age of consent was equal, they didn't do any of that they did. They dared digit they're doing it now, because the corporations

in in in lockstep with work. I ideology, which is another reason by the way, if we want to go back to the left right distinction, why? I think this is so unhelpful, because it's a new right right. I agree, I agree and I don't think, there's any worse woke than world capitalism. No, that's the best your child of greed and needy ology man- I I'm sort of monster, but that is right wing weakness. It can't be anything but because capitalism is acetylene. These are essentially money can bodies. These are not. These are not socialists. Organizations is its so there is a car, a confusion there and also by the way, whenever they the woke always side against the workers. The know whenever, oh that's so in, and the poor and the like I know that so interesting to because I've watched the radicals. Firstly, in europe over the five years, because I was curious is like well when push comes to shove, lead they on the climate front. Are they going?

to sacrifice the poor on the altar of woke and the answer is in a bloody heart beat in a second, and so they rode herbs, neither any decisive. I fit support the bear. The brunt that's right, that's why there's only one, whereas I'm probably wrong to say the work, both mrs closer to the right or whatever. That is its definitely not We move met in any traditional understanding, what leftwing means a copy, and I think we have to stop thinking about it politically. Altogether, everything's under monopoly, the religious analysis is the right one, but so, weird one andrew, that's gonna, take us some strange places, because if this is actually first of all, we are actually making the claim that this is a spiritual battle right, a religious battle, and that's it a claim to make you know we for somebody who is more tilted towards atheists, and I don't even know what the hell it means to make that claim, but I dont think it is a political, struggle fundamentally that's right and then an end to bring down into the algae bt, cubes stuff the way that sex education appeal

to be run at the moment it, but I don't know how it is necessarily where you are back in wales. Definitely scott indefinitely and in england, we having similar problems. You have gen. Idea! Logs! Writing the curriculum effectively ear! Children are being told, even though it is canada. After all, we have closed Michael's. Think of this country mean we ve got narcissistic, we ve got not the. What would we we ve got the cardinal narcissist running our country he's. Breathing woke. You could possibly imagine and he's got that psychopathic, arm that lends itself to falling gullible women. It's a perfect bloody storm. I don't see any difference between effectively encouraging teachers to promote gender. the ideology to young children as having a some kind of hook handed islamic clarity, come in and say gay people should be burned to death. I dont really see the difference there insofar as What promoting a really reactionary belief system onto

hold when it comes to the realm of sex and sexuality, and I think that's really really dangerous. So unless we grapple with this point or unless we as a general population grapple with the fact, that sex education now is really religious preaching. That's all it is that you know the theory you were talking about where'd, you stop. How much do you teach about what actually kids generally learn of figure things out for themselves. Don't they have I've always been of the view that sex sex education doesn't need to be, as I think we will need to know the basics. But I d, I think, has been far too much of it of going on, but we reach the point. Where I mean you must have heard this audio recording that was leaked this week from a school in england, airplane right college. The teacher was was recorded rating to thirteen year old girls because they would not accept that one of their peers identified as it as a cat here. Yeah then send out here in the body of any rude. You know it's

not let the poor girl, where a tail and well. You know that this is the thing that bit there was a report in the telegraph this week as well, saying that this is a school worth one child. I didn't want the horse. There's one who identifies as a dinosaur there's one you quite creatively identifies as a moon and wears a cape. Now I think, what's happening there Is those kids are being satirical that their job We are seeing god I hope. So, no, I thought I'd go. You know the kid. The kid the kids saying: I'm a cop and I need to lie down and I need to be stroke- We need me I'll look. They have seen that because of authority, the teachers are totally capitulate, into this bizarre belief, system this esoteric, cold and and then I would have done that in a heartbeat when I'm not as I would have as a kid, I wouldn't know man out. Is that I'm a velociraptor again?

You know- and you do what I say or I'll eat you or whatever. I don't care what it is, but but they, these kids are pushy. They always test the limits anyway, but what's brilliant about this? Is the teachers can't do any? about it. If I, if I was a young child, besides he's a moon and where the cape teach there's no you're, not she's, denying the sacred reed of gender identity ideology which is in the national curriculum now say so, she'll get you'll get fired so that this puts the kids in an incredible position of power there having fun. That- and this is also why I am slightly heartened by this kind- think the kids are gonna, be a way out of this. I think, and I think I hope that this matter It is further will burn out because the kid say it for what it is. You know the fact that that woman, enough according was saying that these girls, but I think she said they were despicable. I think that was the word. She was despicable for not validating or accepting their friend's identity as a cat- and I mean that's such an

dream position for a teach at stake. I also that, but I don't think it's fair to topple her. and palm bob- and I saw some someone docks in her putting a face. I look she's just following she- probably not a very intelligent person, She'S- probably not very thinking but she's. Just following what she's told to say, she's, been told by all of the teacher training colleges, all of the academics in education- that this is the case and you've got to go with it and she's just doing her job. So I think that's unfair as well. I would like teachers to be more intelligent and creative and to to challenge this stuff. But you know that's not happening so yet. Maybe I guess we're I guess we're learning why the eternal serpent always devours its own tail right right, it's so in hoping that is your these things pushed too far start. I hate themselves, you know it's, it's we're not mine strangest times, man that might be it. That might be the hope they write that down an optimum. It's an optimistic point to make bets also

Thirdly, because I think this ideology is not sustainable because it is all we did was we we did work ourselves back. The brink of tyranny. On the cove lockdown front right, I mean where we went full totality for two years, but then everybody seemed to decide. Maybe that wasn't such a good idea, but that's what made under? Isn't it the way that which is now talk about everyone No one mentions it now: do they and it was it was. You know you walk round and very few people wearing masks and people just sort of though there came a weed turning point? Everyone just decided. Actually it's it's! It's virus with a very low mortality rate is just not worry about it and that just sort of happened, We have forgotten the mania. The stream mania people screaming at each other on the streets. If they were wearing masks and they, the stream policies, the goat, the canadian government's reaction to the top

because there were worried about their livelihood due to lock me stealing their bank, that bank accounts you, maybe a bank accounts and ends and threatened to give the money to other to charities or something didn't they eat. didn't I mean you know, go said so ten ten million dollars was raised on go fuck me yeah then then the gulf we decided they weren't going to distribute truckers. Then decided instead of refunding it they were, two distributed to a charity of their choice, then wrong. Dissenters said, I think you better not do that or else and then decided, they would refund it, and now the money that hasn't been refunded, isn't s girl and there's a huge fight in Canada about who owns it? We haven't settled the truck, mass here at all. You know about that convoy. It had something to do with everybody, taking those goddamn masks or I'm sure wonder what how those politicians who were involved in this will feel about this in twenty years time

I wonder about that. Will under one of your politicians claimed that the truckers would be their horns because they were dog whistling to fascists, because the hong kong is H. Agent means hitler. I mean that was something of a series of accidents, knowledge here and Andrew everybody who long at horn is actually secretly admiring hitler specially made twice that is so in saying that I'm a night. wonder whether you got the sale of which trial level of insight, exact and salem is a good example right. You know There's a reason. I've used it in the book is that I think it gives us our clues to our way out. because salem happens so quickly. It happened within just over a year right, late, seventeenth century. This hysteria emerged from nowhere and fizzled out immediately and everyone afterwards entered all of the people of the most involved in it said we got that wrong. What

but then we went mad for while the cause they they weren't they weren't, although on a thursday this it may be, the first widespread meant mental illness, afflicting our new electronic nervous system. That's it. I think this is a hysteria on a global scale, kin akin to happened in salem. I think I think it it's it's. It's perpetuated self by a similar means, which is firstly, just the mechanism of it area which provides talk about, but also the fact that people in authority go along with it because their terrified, not too, you know, in salem, anyone said hang on. He's right. They were the next to be executed. So you don't have politician, saying hang on a minute: is it possible for for human beings? change sex. Do I know what a woman is. They all know the answer, just as the mid magistrates and salem knew that the girls were seeing the devil,

but it all fizzled out very very quickly and one of the points on making the book is about that the order the prosecutions was secured on this thing called spectral evidence, in other words the girls experience what we call lived experience. The girls believe, I was seeing devils and therefore that was taken as as evidence and that that's why the cases collapsed, because at the end the deputy governor of Massachusetts wrote to the leading clergyman in the country and said: can we use, can speculate, evidence be admissible in court and they but no of course not the whole thing spirit overnight. Everyone deny the had any part in it. In these words hunters. They think I ran hunting, which is that happened about in your. It didn't happen in new england answered We got the least stupid pathway forward for us now and men god willing, that's the one will take. We should stop. I guess I don't want you because you're very entertaining,

archer for everybody watching in listening. I'm gonna talk to andrew for another half an hour on the daily wire plus platform side, a little bit more. Personally, I want to see a bit more about what may tat can. So, if your interested not head over to the daily wire plus platform, you can throw those characters. Those reprehensible right wing, bastards, a penny two. If you are inclined to because you know they are heading the fight to Lord free speech, in the: u s, you know you tube has been after us cause, I'm allied with the daily wire types been after us pretty badly. In the last month they took down three of my Talks, including one withheld, enjoys because you know how reprehensible good old Helen the economist journalist is, and they also took down to talk and with Robert Kennedy, despite the fact, that is running for president, and so that's you tube in there. Definitely going after all the daily wire folk. So thank you all your time and attention and andrew for talking to me in helping me delve into these things.

bit more clarity along with everyone else and for everyone wants listening was soon and to the daily wire folks, thanks for your support, andrew after the daily wire. Thank you very much The.