Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Dr. Brian Keating discuss long-held theories of cosmology, from the big bang to the expansion of the universe, and why we might be totally wrong.
Dr. Brian Keating is a cosmologist, inventor, author, academic, and podcast host. He focuses on the exploration of the big bang, prodding current theories, and building arrays to test them. He has published two bestselling books: “Losing the Nobel Prize” in 2018 and “Think Like a Nobel Prize Winner” in 2021. Keating is the inventor of the BICEP and BICEP2 Array, which are used to study the inception of the universe, and he holds multiple patents for components found within these systems. Keating also hosts the podcast “Into the Impossible,” which boasts Nobel Prize winning guests, renowned scientists from across fields, and a continuous top ten spot in the science category.
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From the Discussion:
Hawking Hawking (Book): https://www.amazon.com/Hawking-Selling-Scientific-Celebrity/dp/1541618378
Answer to Job (Book): https://www.amazon.com/Answer-Job-Collected-Works-Extracts/dp/0691150478
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
The
looking very much forward today to speaking with doktor brian kidding. I met him recently in miami look through the telescope at is beautiful,
sandy in your house on the coast. He gave me a moon rock, which has very nice of em. We had a very good conversation, I'm looking forward today to talking to him about
the unfolding of the cosmos logical landscape on the broadest possible
from the big bang forward. As I mentioned,
he's a cosmologist and also chancellor's, distinguished
pressure. Physics. Is you see San diego? He is
also the author of more than two hundred scientific publications, the equivalent of between sixty and seventy phds. By the way, till you S, patents and the best selling
books into the impossible. Think, like
well prize winner and
Losing the nobel prize, the latter, was selected,
one of amazon editors, best nonfiction books of all time. He received his bachelor of signs from case western and ninety nine.
three and a phd from brown in two thousand. It was later opposed, doctoral fellow at stanford, and
caltech in two thousand and seven he received
the presidential early career award for science,
and the engineers from president george w bush,
for inventing the bicep telescope located at the south pole and arctic
he is also a commercial pilot, was indicted,
into the international air space hall of fame and twenty twenty two doktor kidding,
do you start started by telling everybody what your primary focus of concern is as a researcher and then, let's delve into what what you can bring to people as a consequence of that research, what they need to know both of the color, the cosmic structure, let's say
yeah, so I always ask people on what's the most important day on the calendar to them, and usually I get some version of you know christmas or my birthday or my hopefully for them, I my spouse's birthday and it's an origin story, and I think humans are fascinated with origin stories. How did we come to be?
because we don't know where we come in, as they say in media, raise in the middle of the story and
How do you get to understand what happened before you that the pre history and the biggest pre history of all is how the cosmos came to be.
and my research centres on the oldest fossils of the earliest epoch in the universe. Ahmed experimental cosmology stooped even discussed many times with
theoretically inclined individuals, actually
EL the telescopes, my colleagues and I my students and I we build telescopes that peer back as far as
possible using light, not alights, not light. We can see what the human eye it's in the form of microwaves,
because the universe has been expanding for some thirteen point, eight billion years since a big bang and we'll get to
question of whether or not there is more than one big bang I help later on and there
universe as it expands as cooled off from a fiery hot hell, scape of an inferno too.
a more and more
in a moderate climate that will support the existence of planets and and people in all sorts of other interesting forms
of matter but the key,
and of how the matter came to be in the first place is really
purview of what I do as an experimental. So my job,
experimental. This does not approve theorists right. It's to prove
nothing else wrong, and then what were left with will be a key
sir approximation, to the truth, which is that we live in this incredibly intricate, fascinating universe filled with
the most mysterious forms of matter and even killed
just listen and beings. Like you and I so that's that
research in the way that we do, that is by building the most precise and accurate, tell
jobs, amur made and deploying them to the most interesting parts in the universe, including the south pole, antarctica and
I mountain desert of the andes mountains in chile, as well as into outer space. So it's kind of every. You know boy's dream to grow up to be a rocket scientist to build stuff to shoot rockets into space to to go to these far
streams and the beauty of it is I get paid to do it. So that's my: must my research focusing so why are we start with the comments you made right at the beginning of that explanation? You said that you build telescopes the pier,
back into time, and you might want to explain to everybody would be lodged people
listening who understand that, but, though, be people listening who don't? Why is it that, when you build a technologically sophisticated telescope
computer out into the vast depths
is that your also looking back in time so I'll tell us?
about are time machines of a sword and that's by virtue of the fact that light as fast as it travels, and it is the fastest propagating,
entity that we know about in all of science. It travels about
this far about one foot every nanosecond, so
if you convert nanoseconds two miles and convert
a you, a feature
two miles and nanoseconds two seconds. It travels about a hundred and eighty six thousand miles per second, which is pretty darn fast, but it's not infinite so there
or, whenever you're looking at something you're not seeing it as it is right now, you're seeing it as it were,
It was some time in the past and the
farther away. Something is the longer the lie travelled to reach your eyes or to reach our telescopes telescopes.
His eyes of a different sort. There might be sensitive.
microwaves in the case of the telescope than I build radio waves gamma rays, but
Like your eyeballs, your eyeballs are two refracting telescopes. They have lenses, they have detector
and so when we look at the sun and I'm not advocating as a professional astronomer, never
the sun, with your remain
good. I, but when
look at this on your seeing it as it was in that period in which it was eight minutes ago, because as now,
three million miles away, and if you convert feet per
a second or miles per per second or miles per hour. You get it takes about eight minutes for
to travel from the sun. That means that your
The sun could disappear and we will see it. We want
about it really for at least eight minutes
maybe even longer so all telescope
our time machines, even the telescope
embedded in our skulls show. How far back can we look now with, for example, with the webb telescope and nuts, the new to nuke, the newest large scale, deep peering telescope that was launched into space and how far back
have we pushed the horizon of view now. So yes, a james webb telescope, has launched on christmas day in two thousand twenty one, and it's been sending back in a phenomenal images. What
the web telescope so powerful is not.
Can see farther back in time, although it can in a certain sense, but it doesnt have extra magnification, that's
required to see things that are farther away. In other words, if you use
a tiny little telescope, like the sort that galileo use back in sixteen o nine to spot
craters? On the moon surface, you
use the hubble telescope can also look at the moon and it wants
He things that are ill seymour
tell him the moon surface, but it won't see farther than the moon, because the moon is in the way. Now, if you look where there's no more,
where there's no planet, where there's no galaxies, were there's no absorbing matter whatsoever. There
You're, seeing back to the creation of whatever light your telescope is sensitive to now visible
it has only been around for
billion years because spe for that time, because
of the universe is good expansion that light
red shifted and has gone from visible light to infer
light which is invisible to our eyes but highly visible, and that is the quarry that the
telescope is seeking nothing
farther than the infrared, then you ve come to microwaves, which is what I study so the law
where the wavelength alight you're, looking at the farther you can go back in time, not because you're in
he did buy something, but because the source
very source that you're looking at has been a diminish
in in intensity and has been written by the expansion of the universe, which is a phenomenal discuss?
that we only known about for less than a hundred years, but because,
that universal expansion we
only see using particular wavelengths of light, and so that's why the earlier
the universe, there's no light that we could ever see that is more primitive, then
cosmic microwave background, I and my colleagues are studying so the web telescope can't see far back
in time as we can, but that's really irrelevant. It's designed to do something very specific. Look at the first galaxies that form the first stars and exo planets in other
stellar solar systems in our own galaxy, and because of that, it's
the phenomenal machine and is unrivalled in its capability.
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Let's, let's have you explain what the electromagnetic spectrum is, because people are not
Internet security know what the relationship is say between visible light and and and my
wave radiation they might not
I that those are very varied forms of radiation is very similar in its essence and all
to explain why the red shift occurs and how that
discovered. I suppose yes, yes, so a spectrum is characterised
of light light has three major properties that we
we discuss a scientist? One is its entire,
city how bright the light is, and the other is the color of the light and the third,
something called polarization which happens to be my area of some specialty, not pollute
polarization, but it's an actual useful former polarization that has
the orientation of the electromagnetic fields but all forms
light now people hear radiation, they get scared of the bomb go off. Is there some nuclear react? I dunno has nothing to do with that. It's just a generic term that scientists call light of different wavelengths, so you
a rainbow which has an
bennett, number of colors. There's people say there: seven colors, the famous roy g biv. We learned about an elementary school, maybe but there's action
infinite number of colors, because the the number that describes the collar of light is called its wavelength and the way
of light is a continuous number can be. Any number can have any number of decimal places, so
The continuous number, therefore there's an infinite number of real numbers. Therefore, the spectrum is not
screen in seven different increment. So now a man.
you, go beyond the red color
you're going to the left of that red color and actually this was
sperm and done by very famous scientist in herschel and even eyes,
newton did somewhere types of experiments where they took the sunlight. They refracted it through a prison.
so we ve all seen his presence that dispersed light, and they had learned
different colors coming out of different angles and that's the property of a prism that causes it too.
A rainbow from ordinary white light and what
newton herschel did. Is they put a thermometer? They went into the red line, they put a bulb of an ordinary thermometer and they kept move
Yet until I got beyond the red and then they ve
that beyond the red color
still something coming in causing the mercury to rise in this thermometer. So there was clear
There is other light of a longer wavelength. They knew about the wavelength of light and
longer wavelength is what we associate with heap now the opposite side. If you go
pass the violet side of reggie bid. You come to something
ultra violet ultra ultraviolet, is
also invisible. We know about that from the sun, the sun,
it produces damaging uv, ay and uv radiation. That's not any different, except for the fact it bites characterise
wavelength since whether is shorter than violet light infrared
the longer than then red light and to keep going
the directions, there's photons and wavelengths of light in all different directions. Ad infinitum
tell that to the high frequency or short way link, and it goes
infinity in the other direction. Economic infinitely long now be called a radio waves. So that's the electromagnetic spectrum. Now
with if ever listened
a siren approaching. You ve heard
the familiar doppler shift, that's interesting, doppler
and doppler and Wolfgang Mozart grew up in the same town in salzburg. Austria, I like to think there
kind of enjoying the?
the irony of that fact that they both have this fascination with sound and its phenomena, and the
spanish and or dilution of the wavelength of light is
actually the result of a doppler shift, which is
actually analogous today the increase in pension
decrease in pench that one hears when an ambulance. First
protests you with its siren on that page is increased and that's called ablution
meaning it goes to shorter, sound, wailings or because to hire pitches
as it goes away. The opposite phenomena happens network here this characteristic rise
well as it moves away from you and that's an analog
reggie on the same thing, happens in light. So if you have, if you
approached by a police car you trying to get away from it. It's blue light
we'll seems slightly more red because it's about
italy moving away from you now
I have to go a large fraction of that
in tremendous speed that I spoke about earlier to get even a tiny minute shift in the wavelength either higher or lower. So
red shift that we observe for the universe was discovered.
early, nineteen hundreds and it was discovered that we can
babies leaves little nebula. Their first called spiral. Nebula, we didn't know if they were part of the milky way galaxy. Some said there
outside the milky way galaxy with. That, then makes sense because put yourself.
the frame of mind of a site.
since then the nineteen hundreds, even the great albert einstein,
This was all there is to quote a sign that the unit
this was the milky way galaxy and that the paper it was proposed
to think about something beyond our galaxy, because our me, beyond our universe, now,
is. Ironically, we talk about things be under universal and get into some of that. We discuss them,
diverse and all the bet, but the universe was
and to be much larger than the milky way galaxy and factor galaxies
Sighed the milky way galaxy that we observe the most
as one being the drama nebula, which is now called the great spiral galaxy andromeda galaxy, it's actually the
or this thing, Jordan, that you can see what the human eye. If you look up and a clear night
you can see a smudge and I'll show you the next time you in san, diego,
I will show you a clear smudged through my telescope, and you can.
through your name with your naked eye as well. That smudge is particles of light photons.
Coming from a galaxy and those
photon set out on their journey to your. I wear
there were hominids walking around on the serengeti plains of africa. This is the light that reaches
today's three million years old has been travelling for
three million years
lucy was was extent, so that light
from that galaxy is not being read, shifted or blue shifted tremendously. But if you look at,
other galaxy we can see about a hundred billion galaxies and each one
at least a hundred billion stars and each one of
Stars probably has tens or thousands of minor bodies asked?
what's planets around them, the numbers are truly astronomical. But if you go back
look at and we see a hundred billion galaxies. Jordan of those
your billing galaxies all. But twenty
show their light there characteristic spectrum is shifted to the red
some by tremendous amounts and that
plies, just as it would
You were at the scent if you're in the city and you
all these ambulances and every
the ambulance you heard
as if it was moving away from you, you heard.
Every sirens whale b,
red shifted to lower and lower pitches. What would you conclude?
you oughta conclude you're at a very special location where there is just an accident and the bodies.
cleaned up and taken away the hospital or that
every part of the city is experiencing all these are all the ambulance. Drivers are on strike in everybody's leaving, and so the
reputation that Edwin hobble began
megan nineteen twenty nine. This is not a hundred years. All out it's incredible,
observation that every galaxy exhibits, a red shift, that is ever
galaxies, moving away from the milky way galaxy the milky way, galaxies, no more special or or more important than any other galaxy. Therefore, all galaxies
two high approximation are moving,
from one another and that
sounding observation of physical fact, that we observe that when extraction,
to the future means the universe is, can become more
de dilute and in the past,
much more tightly condense compressed and preserve
We began its is in its infancy, with what we call the big bang show
You want to explain why the farther galaxies are away
faster they're moving away and is also the case that it
the red shift. That explains the fact that the night sky is primarily black instead of lit up
is ever. Am I correct in the latter assumption in and then let's go to the former question?
yeah. The latter question is related son called olbers paradox, which is that
an infinite universe, populated with an infinite number of objects. Stars in this case
no matter where you were in that universe? You would look
and your eye, your line of sight would terminate on the stars surface somewhere
be really far away, but eventually your I would come to rest on a on a start. So
that would mean that it's a paradox that our night sky, we we have
in a day. We see just one star, but even at
We don't see any stars. There are any other nice guys. Intensity is nowhere near as close as the surface of the sun, let alone the infinite intensity of an infinite number of sons. In its
if you were in a forest. Imagine a beautiful boreal forest and and its as effectively infinite
Trees are finite with butter and theirs,
at some distance away from you, but there's an
infinite number of these trees and, as you scan around your local horizon, all you would see his body.
All. You would see the trunks of these trees. That's all
where's paradox for trees and what your brain,
Is this notion that was interesting?
we really encountered and and proposed, and even a solution, perhaps by
girl, Allan POE, the great poet
an eighteen hundreds he can do
should this idea that it's kind of strange that, while we
we are told we live in an infinite universe of even the
Give a galaxy could be infinite in size. We didn't know back then in the nineteenth century, and so it began to be
Paradoxically, the resolution of the paradox is your pointing out is: is several full one? Is that the condition for
the night sky to not be dark.
that the universe is infinitely old that universal.
infinitely big and at the
Universe is static,
stars are not moving in that simple minded paradox as the trees are not moving in the older people.
I analogy for treats
those trees are. Stationary, the forest is infinite and
The light has had enough time to travel to your eyes, because the universe is infinitely old, so
any one of those. Three propositions is falsified. Then you can demolish the path. The paradox as paradox,
and so the resolution. Interestingly enough comes down to
All three of those are true or false.
it would have been enough. It would have been sufficient
falsify one or more of those of the three propositions: universes infinitely old infinitely, big and static,
but we actually know now that universe isn't any one of those three at least the universe, that we can observe so now
you asked about the how we can think about the expansion of the universe are how we can
determined that or how it was determined, as is
I can t ramanujan yeah yeah yeah yeah, well in why why the more distant galaxies are moving away from Astor? That's right!
the analogy that astronomers use. No analogy is perfect right. We're dealing with things not just in a three day
tens of space. But in the fourth dimension
what we call space time, so we
the visualize things that are really on visualize, the by the human mind by our own limitations, and so we may now
so one of the most common analogies is to think about I'll. Give you two
one is to imagine a balloon with little dots drawn on the balloon surface, the balloon, sir
the two dimensional as you ex blow up the balloon
the galaxies move away. The dots on the balloon surface move from one another and they
with exactly that property that a gallop,
that is one centimeter, our dot. That's one centimeter away from another galaxy, our dot
we'll move twice as much in the same amount of inflation or expansion as a galaxy that is half a centimeter separated or a dot to dots that are only five millimeters apart from one another, but that's confined to the
two dimensional surface, though a little bit hard to maybe project
into three dimensions in our minds, so another one that people uses imagine
making a raisin bread, a bread and cheese put
a bunch of raises inside of it,
Two has the exact same property if you sit
on any rayson inside the bread
and you watch, what are the other raisins doing, the all
I will be observed to move away from you. There won't be any gravitational attraction between you and another reason.
seal actually observance like a perfect expansion of the universe? From your perspective member, I said there are about two,
or more galaxies that are gravitationally attracted to the milky way and they are blue shifted because are falling towards us and will eventually combined into it. You know
mega galaxy called milk dromedary sunday, but that doesn't it
and for reasons or for dots in a balloon,
so the law that describes that type of expansion in
are raising Brad populated with raisins in three dimensions or a balloon
when dotted with a magic marker marks in two dimensions, those too
Those two phenomena are exactly displaying. What's called hobbles law, which
velocity of every galaxy, we see beyond a certain distance. That's a minimum distance that we don't have gravitational interact.
between us and them down
galaxy we're moving away directly proportional
what's known as hobbles constant, so there
osity in meters per second miles per hour in a furlongs
a decade whenever you want will be directly linear. It's the simplest la manageable. Besides
The constant it'll be moving linearly proportionate to its distance away from you and that's it
standing observation and that's the only type of observation that can produce the type of-
pictures that we see in the universe. In other words, it could have been travelling as the velocity scaling as the square of the distance to cuba. The distance there
square root of the distance, whatever
We live in a much much different universe and it wouldn't have any the characteristics that we observe
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when I read stephen hawking brief history of time, which is it's gotta be twenty years ago.
proximate its forty almost forty years. All there is food guard. Well, that's what happened at all the big effort collapse. So at that point
in my memory. If my memory serves me properly, the
standard cause biological model was that we emerged
big bang in the universe was expanding, but that at some point it would contract back on itself, and this was harking
idea, anyways and then clocks back down into a
into another singularity, whatever existed before the big bang, but
is my understanding that over the last few decades, the evidence evidence has accrued in it
incontrovertible manner that the rate of expansion
is actually increasing rather than decreasing, and that's
I believe that the great mystery that's propelled, scientists to posit the existence of such
phenomena as dark energy, have I haven't, got that right and
What's the current state of thought about the fact that for
all explain why that's surprising,
at the rate of increase or the rate of expansion is increasing, explain why that surprising, and then, when you explain how that view has changed
the time and we're we're out now apps.
yeah. So I got to hear stephen hawking speak at the royal astronomical society meeting in london
and ninety ninety five, and it was back when he could
He couldn't speak for a very long time, so he wasn't able to actually speak in real time, but it could move
fingers and he can move his eyes and he can type on this very special keyboard which the
ex husband of his current nurse at the time had invent
that's a whole other story. I can recommend a book by french, while site called hockey
hawking, and it was for
business of stephen hawking, and I he could answer one.
question I would take them about ten minutes. Answer a question. Someone asked him in the audience: professor hawking europe.
to be the most brilliant man alive, and yet you ve written. This
that almost no one besides you know, a younger, join petersen, perhaps had read cover to cover. Why did you write this book?
and he answered and his computerized synthetic voice. Because my
I needed to pay for college.
It is interesting that this great man, this great intellect you, know trapped in this body that had been robbed of all of its
physical kind of manoeuvring and, and so forth was was
facile with his mind, was really an incredible thing to see when
hawking, wrote that book. It is true. There was expected
she was that the universe would eventually collapse. Lines of would eventually undergo it's called a big crunch, which is essentially the opposite of the big bang.
We would observe if we were living billions of years. Hence the story went that we would see.
galaxies being read, shifted but galaxies being blue shifted because we're all going
bind and eventually into a cop
perhaps of enormous if you, like,
mutational time bomb that would probably play out over in oats
and if not trillions of years, so I kept advising people that keep pay their taxes, but at the
At the time we didn't know about the substance called dark energy and what so supply.
sing about that and what kept Einstein really flummox for the first part of
is of his career was the
We only knew of a few different forms of matter and energy in the universe we knew of matter.
Stuff, the stuff that were made,
and we knew of light and energy.
where's. That only has matter and light.
impossible to not have a gravitational collapse. Just as the same is true, if I take
object, a ball or an apple, and I thought
For some velocity, it will still come back down unless it reaches what's called escaped velocity and perplexed
flexing thing about einsteinian general relativistic gravitation that still mystifies me and experts is that
when you add mattered to the universe and actually makes it expand faster, which has come
intuitive. You think, if,
more gravity in the earth's surface. The ball would
Apple would actually fall down, even quicker, which it would, but but in the case,
of what we describe the expansion of the universe, we're talking about.
Velocity, not
acceleration so
the crucial distinction, the universe
can have objects, moving faster away from each other, and that doesn't involve
necessarily their acceleration. So what einstein did to counteract that
He was a pretty smart guy right here,
Dorothy said, while the universe doesn't seem to be collapsing. So such
must be some hidden form of energy that we don't observe and that option
unobserved matter. He called the cosmos, logical term cosmos, logical energy source. We later
the cosmos conjugal constant, and now we call
dark energy as you as you proposed? What that does
by adding in matter you get anti gravity. Are you had an energy, pure energy? You get a form of anti gravity almost as if you know it's a comic book europe,
a dream that you could suspend?
gravity that you could freeze, the motion of objects attend to want to combine with one another. So he
then had a mechanism contrive
it was too
explain why the universe appeared static as it did in nineteen, twenty and ninety ninety,
then. As I mentioned earlier, when hobble observed, the universe is in fact not stay
herr einstein. The universe is expanding, then Einstein had the brilliance
the humility and the confidence to say.
I was wrong and a supposedly he
all the insertion of the cosmos, logical term. His biggest blunder
so he was trying to account for the fact, let's just to just to get the chronology clears at that point. The unit
appeared static and einstein was trying to figure out. Why wasn't collapsing
who itself, and so he proposed a constant. Would you acquainted
something like an anti gravity energy, but then the poor
from turned out to be even worse than it seemed to be because it was not only not collapsing and not ours.
Not static and nor collapsing
was expanded.
Yeah oh announced the mystery that people are trying to address, while still today, with the hypothesis of something approximating dark energy,
right, so the dark energy phenomenon causes not only
reversal of the collapse of the universe, is in of all these galaxies, raisins or,
becoming together anomaly
freezes them in their tracks and actually reverses that process. So, instead of
expanding linearly smoothly as hobble would envision us doing. Actually the universe starts to accelerate sources
you're, pushing down on the cosmic accelerator pedal these
galaxies are not only moving apart, but tomorrow they'll be moving apart, even faster at a given
since only moving apart faster than they are so I
his joke. You know it's. It was a blunder of einstein to call that blunder his blunder, because it wasn't a blunder at all, and I would say I like to throw em. You know it's too bad that he made that blunder. Otherwise he could have had a good career but
this case, when we look at what einstein was conjecturing, it came back unavoidably
the late ninety nineties,
the observation of what are called type one, a supernova which are just used its
want to know what they are, their exploding stars and fascinating objects in their own right, but there really used, as
These sirens on ambulances, a great distances
so in in twelve rules for life. You talk about the value precision of speech while the most import
Four cosmetology is precision cosmology. When I
a graduate school in the in the ninety nine these in the mid nineties, we did
of the universe was ten billion years old or twenty billion years old. Now we know
thirteen point eight to four billion years old and we have
a precision of less than
one percent and we also have
accuracy. In other words, we have calibrated that number and removed systemic contamination from that number
really phenomenal. I mean at that time we knew of objects that were older than the universe. Supposedly there were objects called globular
and they were older than the universe. That's like finding out that year
older than your mother, I mean
very bizarre situation and quite
likely was embarrassing to cosmology? Now we know it
dream precision, but with
precision comes great power,
power allows us to assess what is
the nature of this dark energy, potentially, and not only that what is it doing too
future understanding of where the universe will continue to develop in the in the far far distant future, and so if the
first truly has this dark energy chimerical?
form of energy unknown completely. Unlike anything, we ve ever had an experience with that
Type of energy will eventually drive the universe, potentially innovation.
we have different ways, none of them good, but luckily they
come about for tens to perhaps hundreds of billions of years when the universe might physically rip apart. There could be
acts of space time that at all locations develop what we call similarities the brakes
and all the laws of physics uncertain
long before then we will have stopped having
the ability to do astronomy or cosmology
we will no longer be able to see any other galaxies after a certain.
After the universe, expanded so much those galaxies
we'll all be read, shifted so far out of observational constraints that we won't even know. We live in a galaxy. We'll just think this
The entire universe so, ironically, will be back to the way the state of a
as was in pre nineteen, twenty nine our planet earth understanding of cosmology
and with the precision that I mentioned before that we know the age of the universe. We know it
spanish rate of the universe. We can do astounding things we can go back.
in time and ask just as we do with,
with, I remember when I, when my children turned two years old, you take
so the pd office,
and they measure their height and basically,
It got this rule of thumb, based on the statistics of a hundred billion people that have lived on planet earth to date. That,
The child will be about twice as high twice
tall as he or she is at age too, I think I'm going
right. I am a doctor, but I'm not that kind of a doctor right. So yeah
check those numbers, but they basically extrapolate. So imagine if you went and you go the pediatrician, and then you come back in ten years, fifteen,
twenty years and the kid is like
thirty times bigger than that high or or one tenth is tall. We say this is crazy. There's something strange going on your tables are all messed up.
and your actual statistical sample
not a good representation of the parent population, no pun intended
So the question becomes: how accurately can you estimate how fast the universal be expanding today very
thirteen billion years ago and there's what's
The tension,
the two numbers disagree,
and they disagree by a violently unacceptable amount.
the measurements that we deal with the cosmic micro background radiation, suggests
a universe that is a very and billions of a billion years younger.
If you like them, the universe that we see using the type when a supernova and that tension
A lot. A billion years is a big difference in so each one
precise? Not once the count? That's the current broke, a current problem. That's occur,
problem. We don't know the hubble constant value. It disagrees at once called five standard deviation. So there's up a one point:
and several million that it could be a statistical fluke in their both thereof, actually the same or it could be that the
of the early universe, that I study is very different than the physics
the late time universe that my colleagues who study supernova study this
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So ok, so walk back. Thirteen point, eight two four billion years now in principle, correct me. If I've got any
wrong, all of the matter and energy that constitute the current universe, visit
and invisible is collapse to all too, to a point that isn't even a pinpoint is infinitely small, an infinitely dance and there's a cataclysmic,
explosion, that's the big bang. There still part of the standard, cosby logical model still and accepted, let's say fact, and then
why don't you walk through what happens as the universe? Unfolds from that point onward, including
accusations or known facts about
the early the difference
between the early periods that you just described, maybe even in terms of fundamental cause.
Logical laws and later periods
now- and we might also throwing these caviar too- is that as far as I've been able to determine its still
Axiomatic presupposition among scientists that the laws of physics that obtained
at the point of the singularity, are not the same laws of physics or at least can't be
to be that govern
the first has its currently unfolding. So, let's go back
then we'll walk through all of that
actually I'm glad you set it in those terms- is actually
to start not with the beginning, which is
big you ass, witches hotly debated, which is contestable and those are all good things about the scientific process
but actually to start with today. So let's go back from today,
when we think we understand the laws of physics that that are, you know, presented to us and go back in time to a point and at before which
we don't understand the laws of nature because
you start, you know if you start from a point of ambiguity and uncertainty, and then you attempt to extrapolate forward your less likely
get the right answer than if you kind of go back historically and ask when do we lose sight of the plot line? When do we lack our understanding of the laws of nature,
starting from today, we see
or forces of nature. There cut there too
clear forces called the strong and weak force that govern the behaviour of atoms and radioactive decay.
and then there's lots of electricity and magnetism that govern everything from electromagnetic communication like we're doing right now,
two refrigerator magnets to magnetic levitation and in future
You know how full transportation mechanisms
and then there is the law of gravity which is perhaps most familiar to us. When we try to get out of bed every morning were fighting against the entire mass of the
with our meagre masses. Hopefully you know maintaining the
the battle every day to get out of bed and make your bed in the morning so this phenomena.
These four phenomena are familiar to us and we can actually go back a great distance in time when anne and even
staying only in space where we are right now, let's take the earth back and
we go back four billion years. The earth condensed out of this shroud.
no other supernova that had explore
it perhaps a billion years before that in our local arm of the milky way galaxy. Let's go back
more billion years, the dark energy that we spoke about earlier, began to dawn
in the universe, started to accelerate faster and faster roulette, still is, and the laws of classical physics and quantum
that we understand. Let's keep going back
our back say ten billion years ago, the first, the first
stars that were ever made are all long gone they, while blown up and into these type type one population. Three events that
A web telescope is hopefully going to shed more info
light on, and then you go back even
are there hundred million years before that, so you know you're going back from thirteen
a billion years, let's say today we're we're talking on a friday. We go back there
friday, thirteen point
a billion years ago. Ok, if you just can't,
going back seven times, twenty four
just keep counting the weeks and beers and you'll reach some day, and
no be some day that three minutes you know earlier the laws
physics that we really understand. No in love, gravity electromagnetism.
The strong and weak nuclear forces that they all free
into the configuration that we can understand today. In other words,
once you go beyond that and it is
type of event horizon in the sense that it may be forever shielded from our vision,
Once you go beyond that that gap, you can no longer speculate with the knowledge and certainty and precision that we have today
it's kind of marks, a boundary and ignorance boundary. An egg
her horizon, beyond which
we can only speculate, but speculation is fun and it's great to do an end,
I appreciate as much as my theoretical colleagues do forever
sperm. I look at the shrapnel and the fossils and what
left from the universe that we can observe today,
If it's very old, like the light of the cosmic mercury background, is very old, oldest lay in the universe. I still can you
that to glean information about their period.
You know three minutes after midnight on some friday. Thirteen,
a billion years ago right. So we can look all the way. We can't look all the way to the big bang itself. We can look some fractions,
seconds after the big bang, when the laws of physics sprang into existence, and we have the beginnings of the inn.
Actions between matter and energy that we see today, but there's a boy
through their prior to that item, that debt
can't peer into it. The moment now to talk to me,
we'll tell everybody about what the cosmic background
we radiation is, and why
the started out, and how that enables us to peer back really too, as close to the beginning of time, as we can manage yeah exactly
the cosmic migrate background- is the left over heat from the future,
and of the very first elements on the periodic table of the elements. So
lightest elements in the universe are hydrogen and helium, and they have
isotopes each one has a couple of different isotopes, meaning they have some more
are fewer neutrons in their nuclei. These are not Adams, though
you're, just the nuclei of what would eventually become the caliph chemical elements and atoms, so the
nuclei. I are fused in the first few minutes of the universe of our current observable universe have to be very precise here. We
can't say, the big bang was the beginning of time. We don't know that most people
soon, that the universe with the universes origin with the big bang came
the beginning of time that raises all sorts of of harry paradoxes that are really quite difficult
approach both from the laws of physics perspective, but even from metaphysical perspectives. You know what was how does tat
come into existence when, when
There was a moment before that existence was even possible. Can you even conceive of such a thing? How do you
The motive change the motive force, if you will to go from acts to delta, X, plus delta or t plus delta
if there was no time at that at the zero point. So these are metaphysical questions and I should say there are many emma
and serious cosmology who do speculate. What would the universe look like if there were
in a quantum singularity at the origin of time. There were no origin of time. If you will whatsoever and have spoken
some of them, roger, penrose and and and others, but but the point being that
there are alternatives to that now, ninety,
percent of my colleagues. Don't really pay much attention to those models, but I think it's important. At least
give the impression that we
for certain the universe had a quantum gravitational singularity that
sprang time into existence? As you said before, in others,
infinitesimal amount of of space, and in that space was all the matter in the universe, Jordan. We don't know that there is a possibility,
In fact, as the most popular
possibility amongst my colleagues, but again
when experimental is I dont come up with these theories I should apply.
These theories wrong, so what
things that I'm doing with the cosmic migrate backroom, because it is the oldest light in the universe and because, if you
about the motor homunculus of a human being. We,
most of our you, no kind of attention are cortex. Our brain pays attention to light the visual cortex and
so our hands and our motor in our motor system- and you know this infinitely better than I do join but but light is such a
powerful tool that we should do everything we can to explain
all the information and these press
few photons better, still
over there still coming to us, are still saying hello. Here I am, I am
relic fossil and I've travel
time like a time machine to get to your team,
scope here in chalet or an article in
can I tell you about what it is
like when I was born now, that's enough,
me too kind of you know just
My imagination build new instrumentation, but of course it's fun
speculative what happened before so I
how'd you. These are the oldest particles of light. So the only thing you can say right now is that we can't use light to find out what happened before these photons were born. These causing riker background photons came to be so
that doesn't mean that there is nothing we can use because nature
is clever and there are many different forms of matter.
energy that we can use to trace the early,
first phenomenon, if, indeed, if and only if there was a universe price
to say, the big bang or prior to the format
of these these these ancient relic photons, so one other form of
radiation- it's not electromagnetic radiation is called gravitational radiation.
Gravitational radiation arises
whenever there is matter in motion and when,
space time. Reverberates, so famously was discovered by three four
and colleagues of mine you and your team called the lego experiment, and twenty fifteen,
september, twenty fifteen, they caught the
the spiral of two black holes each one,
thirty times the mass of our sun. They remove
a fraction of the speed of light, a very high velocity they have,
They call asked into one fused: it exists
We of the analogy is, I like, is fused into a giant black hole, but that black hole
had a massive say. Fifty nine times is the massive, our sun. So, where did that
store, one mass of the son got well. It went into shaking up the fabric of
base time itself and that
reverberation of space time is called a graphic
general wave
gravitational radiation
gravitational radiation, penetrates everything when I
my first here in san diego, you feel it there on the east coast, because
But it's minute and its overwhelmed by a multitude of other sources of of local
attention will feel distortion
as these waves of gravity travels through space time. They affect all
and they go through all matter,
and so we would actually way slightly heavier and then alternate with with away slightly less as ground
patient wave came into the room that were in right now. That's the affair
that process. Does that propagate at the speed of light yeah proper
that doesn't need of light and also has the virtue that they don't they dont writ decay? Theirs
for a radioactive of radioactive decay of gravitational radiation they're. Just
like light, except they go through everything, so
if the universe produced an enormous amount of gravitational waves capable of
detected a billion,
light years away from these two black holes that I described before they were located one billion light years away in a galaxy. We don't know exactly which galaxy they were in, but they cry
together in a galaxy, far away from the milky way galaxy a billion years ago. Those waves
gravity travelled at the speed of light for a billion years they entered in,
two different telescopes on earth and they display
those telescopes by less than the diameter of an atom, and
these incredible researchers were able to detect this and they ve done a hundred times since so it's a is a precision. Science just lie
galileo, first
a telescope to look at the moon, the
of jupiter, the reins of saturn, etc. That
up a whole new world, a regime of astronomy, not just to look at the moon, but to look at the entire universe using optical telescopes. They revolution
now Jordan, if indeed
all the matter in the universe, was, as we know at one point, the universe was far far smaller. It was
a thousand times smaller than it is now every dimension that that means
was, it was a thousand thousand thousand or a billion times smaller
volume than it is now.
Cosmic background radiation was released or produced
Three hundred eighty thousand years after the
initial singularity or after the origin, of our current observable universe, if
who little measly black holes. You know just there,
Ashing together can cause a lot
gravitational radiation. Think about all the matter in the entire universe. All
black holes, they would ever be and all the staff,
as all of our matter that made us up all the light. All of it
coming into existence at a certain time, you would expect
make an enormous amount of gravitational radiation and you'd be right, and so on.
gravitational radiation would then propagate through the universe and eventually winning code and encrypt its behaviour.
What's called the polarization of the microwave backroom,
member I said light has three properties we talked about. We talked about
three properties, the intensity, the brightness of the light we talked about
the color of the light or spectrum, while the third
at least now the properties of life, because our eyes are insensitive to it is the
a polarisation state of light,
now runs angle of travel essentially
It's the isolation of lights, a wave like you and I holding a rope and oscillating a rope up and down it's the plane that the rope is oscillating and it can be horizontal. It can be vertical. It can be any angle between. It turns out
The gravitational waves have a beautiful propensity to turn the polarization of the microwave backroom in,
very particular orientation and weakened by mapping the orientation of the microwave background and
polarization
can divine the existence or lack thereof of way.
of gravity called gravitational radiation and, if detected
it doesn't prove a theory that we
get into called inflation, which is the most
popular, a cosmo genesis model that we have
gives very, very, very strong, circumstantial evidence for it. But again I'm an ex.
Mental? So what do I do? Jordan? I try to kill other theories,
well turns out our good friend, roger penrose. He has a theory
there should be no polarization of this kind, in other words, join if
observe. My team and I observe this particular polarization configuration-
improve somebody right. It proves roger wrong. It proves
our colleague's wrong as well, that have alternative hypotheses, and what are those alternative hypotheses? Will the very fascinating.
They do not involve inflation,
but they also do not involve a
singularity at the origin of time there
the origin of time in most of these alternatives. So by observing the signal, we kill
those models off and what's left, is a core
approximation to the church and
you, and did you observe this polarization
Yes, we did and then yes, that's, that's that's a hangover if I've got this right, that's a hangover of events that occurred before the light
itself that your measuring, which is the microwave radiation electromagnetic radiation, that it was in
and about three hundred and eighty thousand years after the big bang, and so it's been
oriented in a manner by something even earlier than that
that's right. I read some guy ready counter theory. I think when I was
estimating year work for our part gas. That is it the case that there are
but who claim that the polarization that you detected was a consequence of of the interaction between light
the light your observing and and and dusted spread out in the cosmos that and yet
the consequence of this early gravitational of these early
nation waves.
Yeah. So this is a very, very important chapter, not only in my life but its it. It will be a talk
bout in future years as an example of
of how science actually gets done and it's the subject of my first book losing the nobel prize and its
of how that
scientists can become obsessed in this case. The scientist is me: it's a memoir, my career, trying to detect these early reverberations
universes, space time structure and all
to see
whether or not inflation or an alternative, took place to ignite
big bang that we do observe and have have
action, reams of evidence to support
so the existence of mark of matter, the existence of the sea and be the
students of galaxies and expansion. Those all support the fact the universe was in an extremely hot and then state early on in its history, but they
We provide the mechanism by which that came about, and I always say it's like this jordan when somebody says you know we're going to take biology class on the first day of
gee class when, when you're in and college, they don't start off at the origin of life. In the universe, there are even so
at the origin of dna rights, as almost as if the origin of the universe is outside are met a cosmo logically related to the
expansion and the properties that we observe as cosmetology is so it's almost exe
think too much of us to say where we also know how the universe came into existence. But again it's
super duper fun to speculate about things that you can't observe, and maybe we'll never be observable, so I wanted to do this
to observe
early universe and as infant state I want
Do that for two reasons I most
fascinated by the biggest possible questions. I always
I grew up. I'm jewish, but I grew up as a catholic
the young man was an altar boy in the catholic church and never had a.
Metaphor:
and so at the time when I should have been having apartments I was in the catholic church. I was interested in
the origin of the universe. Trying to know of god existed and trying to
understand our play?
the cosmos, and I don't care about kind of the stand
collecting aspects of of of life. I didn't care about parties and also its other things status. Sports is, I just want to understand: math science,
and use my telescope,
Those were my those were. My real fascinations, as young man later in life
I became I said I was jewish bought. My parents are george, my father,
was a great scientists. His name is James acts
have the same last name. Isn't he divorce
mother and father got divorced, and I live with my stepfather, who became my stepfather, and he adopted me and I lost
with my biological father for many many years for fifteen years. I didn't see him and in that period
time. I knew he was a great scientist. He was a great mathematician. He was the youngest tenured
your mathematics, cornell in their history- and I think, he's still holds that that distinction
He went on to have a great career and I didn't see him and asked
was adopted by my stepfather and a kind of
this rivalry with him, Jordan and you can psychologically diagnose it as you like, but just
boy might want to be a better football player wrestler than
his father, I want to be a better scientists than him as greatest
just ass. He was, he never won the nobel prize, and I realized I could
a kind of one up
old man who had abandoned me and my older brother decades earlier, and I
do what he did not and best of all. I could do it by having the most doing the most fun
I could possibly imagine. Building
scoffs and studying the biggest picture topic, so this became my obsession I became obsessed,
and later on a proposed, an experiment with my
and tore and friends at caltech roused postal to go back.
I am as far as we could go back building a telescope.
called bicep, which
coined the name means background imaging of cosmic extra galactic polarization, but
play on words, because that polarization signal I told you about Jordan, the orientation is called a curls, so
the girl tight margin, funny buyer
as there's are profound nerd joke for you? It is to catch that one
Where I got to being a prevailing, dad jokes,
preventing nerd jokes, so that expense
did detect. We detect, we claimed we detected the imprimatur of inflation and others
we claimed that we saw the twisting roiling path
in the polarization called chrome
polarization that was thought to be conclusive.
If circumstantial evidence for the infection
jerry origin of the universe.
At georgia. These are kind of like eddies in the stream me exact, acting in eddie on the edge and so yeah. These are remnants of things that happened extraordinarily early on you're, looking back past, theoretically, you're looking back past three hundred and eighty thousand years, the big bang hey. Let me
the layout for everybody, whose watching in listening just a brief skim out of time,
because you never know. There's all first people listening and you never know
people known what they don't know. So, let's just take a walk.
Numbers, so everybody understands a thousand and
will generally know that a million is a thousand thousand, but then things get murky at the top in
stan, so a thousand million is a billion, and so we're looking at thirteen thousand millions are above thirteen and fourteen point three. In your estimation,
and right now we're speaking about a time. That's three hundred thousand years after the events of the big bang, but europe
four you're looking back. Even further than that, by looking at the effects of the gravitational waves on the microwave backer,
then that's what you built the telescope for in the south pole
so imagine you're in a room right now
looking around your room, you have a horizon beyond what you can
hey. It's called the walls of the room that you're in, but if something
happen outside and say somebody let off a firecracker outside of the room that you're in
You couldn't see it with light, but you
here, was sound so
you can see things that are farther away and as we initiated our conversation, somehow farther away we're seeing light from when it was more primitive. When it was older, when it was more distant means that translates by this finite speed of
to an older, more primitive existence. So
right now. I know you give the explosion was loud enough. Even if you were deaf, you could detect the movement of the walls. That's right!
and so I have heard that in April in the fbi,
They use. The vibration of windows bouncing a laser off the windows, because
will inside the rumour talking is causing reverberations of the glass and they
read out and transducer sonic vibrations of them air molecules using the verb, vibrations of glass and dancing a laser, often exactly like that.
We can see barely what they're doing right now will face
I hope so it'd be a good use of their of their bandwidth right. So, if you look back to that first, as I said, we can go back from friday today. Thirteen point eight billion years that some day we can go back and and that first three minutes of that day formed the,
women's all the hydrogen, that's in your bodies, water, all, the hydrogen, that's in the oceans of the entire planet and all planets. Perhaps
the hydrogen was formed in that first, three minute period
We can go insularity. Let me ok. Let me ask you a question about that, because I want to get this exactly rate and in it also relates to something metaphysical that I wanted to ask you about. So
when we go back extraordinarily close to the events of the big bang. Went
are super hot super dance,
we don't have any of the elements that currently make up the universe.
Matter as we know it, we have a state prior to the elemental state, and so
what what's the initial state can you can you walk through the sequence of unfolding? No people should remember that,
the material world that we see around us is made out of a hundred and fourteen elements, some of which, some of which are man made not easily found in nature.
So, let's say a hundred justice.
Rule of thumb and those elements
if in there, in the complexity
their atomic structure.
And so the simpler elements have you have
neutrons and protons and electrons that make up an atom.
The simpler the element is, the fewer
the new turns and protons and electrons are in the atomic structure, so they're more more complicated clumps of of subatomic particles of atomic particles to make up the elements.
Now: they appear in a sequence right as the universe on folks and so but be
were even hydrogen, which is the simplest elemental structure before
hydrogen appears there are others
its of matter and that
and not sequences all the way back to the big bang. So can you unfold how the how the periodic table
mergers and then what happens before that and then we'll go back to the microwave,
Then gravitational waves story yeah. So
famous poet, scientists, Carl Sagan, said you know we are all made of stars were all star stuff,
it's actually not really. True, we're actually cosmic stuff where, where I actually most of us as water, right jordan, so most of water is hydrogen and most of that hydrogen, if not all of it, was for
during these first three minutes after the big bang or again
I'll say that as a as a shorthand for europe
of time in which ass before which we lose information and we become ignorant, but but that
period of time leaves fossils and thus
fossils are the hydrogen the helium and that we see in the universe and their isotopes. So there's really only six or seven different things that are made, but without those things
They become the ingredients of the
generation of stars, though
generation of stars become nuclear fusion reactor is taking hydrogen nuclei and isotopes
fusing them together to make helium after our helios, the name of the sun, but the element?
and was discovered, not on earth. On the sun, I was shocked
my cosmology malagigi students there, the scientists had a go at night. You know
for their own safety, but but healing
discovered not on earth, but it was discovered on the sun via its chemical spectrum, its chemical fingerprint. So the first
means hydrogen and helium are formed in the big bang. Much more helium is formed later on in stars, then, that healing
makes heavier and heavier ellen
and we start marching up the periodic table to make their fill out. The rest of those hundred are so elements
Ok, so we have the big bang and the initial particles or electromagnetic waves that emerge
How would you? How do you characterize them? Is it how
how long after the big bang do you have the initial hydrogen and its variant isotopes and
there before that, before it's even hydrogen yeah.
so it doesn't become hydrogen until three hundred and eighty thousand years later, when the universe is cool enough. That approach
and can meet an electron and food.
Together, if you like, or can dance to make a actual adam and the
atoms in the universe or form. Then then, afterwards, you get hydrogen combining
make helium inside case be so before that is just protons. Electrons protons you're not hang out its edge.
zack here I don't know, what's call the plasma
plasma is the fourth state of matter.
What happens when a heap beyond a gas? You ionize you break apart the atom in
constituent nucleus and its electronic content. So you get
nucleus is positively charge, has made a protons neutrons and
electrons urges separate individualistic particles and there's another type of
article. It is very important, but we will get into called a neutrino and that that's
The only form of dark matter that we know for sure exists, so you ve heard about
Our manner we ve never observed any other dark matter in the union,
besides neutrino, but there
relevant necessarily for either life for what we have right.
I'm going to have yes plasma. You have this plasma of of proteins,
bronze that aren't aren't, assume
hearing with one another. Now, that's all
actively uniform field are very
Protons, electrons super hot! Now it's only relatively uniform and correct me if I've got this wrong, but I looked into this a while back, so it start
two clump together, and the reason it clumps together is because of gravitational attraction right, clumps, together and material in an immaterial clumps.
and the reason that that happens is because of, I believe,
It's because of quantum uncertainty. It isn't a hundred per cent uniform and so
particles some of these private
Your particles are a little bit closer to others than than others are
there's a slight non uniform
many about it, and now you and now you get clamping and as the clamping occurs it the the
you're, the competent emerges, the more likely it is to create additional matter and then
keeps happening until you get the beginning of clumps of matter that large enough to be stars, and then
stars have enough gravitational force to produce
additional nuclear trance or at
make transformations and the stars start to generate the rest of the periodic table of the elements correct so far
the actual level young guy well known
that's. What how can I get from arrogant and so will we here
we can talk about how the rest of the elements come into being as well. Yes, exactly
I'll get your point about curvature, which is the crux of everything that you just said. Relies on a very short word
It sure that we have to delineate, but first I want to take a slight deter of young indulge me with your patented
barons, Jordan? There is a lot of talk,
in this, I gazed about artificial intelligence and the dangers of
artificial intelligence opposed to him.
amity some say it's worse than nuclear war. Elon Moscow said such things
I worry about the more pedestrian but still more important things like loss of jobs and an meaning in and so forth, as very important human psychology I
so worried about artificial intelligence and I'll, tell you why
The reason relates to this famous gentlemen albert einstein we mentioned in three or four times rating
enough you're familiar with an einstein called his happiest thought jordan on so called the
a good duncan experiment, a thought experiment that he
alone, did for the first time in the following was conjectured by the great einstein he said
somebody if he was falling. If he was in an elevator in the cable broke, god forbid and the elevator start to felt fall. That person would exceed
means no gravitational force. It's called the
stein, equivalence principle. He call that the happiest
of his life now? What does that have to
with curvature and so well, it turns out
an artificial intelligence. Let me firstly tore backed artificial intelligence. Jordan. Can I ask you: how
you expect a computer or an
an official general intelligence could interpret these two phenomena free fall
the visceral humans
enter an experience of freefall a and b
a happy is thought I want to ask
you actually started, turn the tables on you for
that gives me great comfort, because it really
crying in the human melt mind a human brain. Another thing that is of
the complexity and possibly forbidden.
To our understanding behind an ignorance horizon like the big bang, but Jordan
Does it give you any solace because to me it's a great comfort that it
a mind something trapped in the wet supercomputer. If you will, on top of our shoulders operating at room temperature, how can a computer
experience a visceral sensation if possible, and how could it ever associate happiness with it? Yeah? Well, that's
the question I dont know how artificial intelligence,
will mimic emotions I'm afraid that my
more credible, didn't we think, because I've been too
carl frist in, for example, whose great neuroscientist, in one of the things
pointed out. I figured out already because I had done some work that was parallel to, for instance, on the entropy management front and one of the you could you can
can characterize anxiety as the neural physiological response to the unexpected emergence of entropy so
the radar. It's the expansion of a single specified pathway forward its
expansion of about two multiple pathways. So, for example, if you're driving down the freeway in your car breaks down, the reason you get anxious is because your car has been expanded from this
simple object that will move you from point a to b to a set of a complex,
and currently unsolvable problems, and that signified by negative emotion. That anxiety is proportionate to the degree to which entropy is emerged and that's on the negative emotion front and then on the positive emotion, front,
if you're moving towards value goal with ease
success will move forward, you you dig.
Is the end tropic distance between you and the goal, and that signal
my positive emotion and its possible that
systems will be able to at least model, is conceptually now that's different than feeling it qualitatively
This is why we have a first reading of anxiety exactly whatever that feeling means and not seems irreducible in some sense, but I think it can be
mathematically- and let me
the day I system should be able to conceptualize what constitutes the basis for positive and negative emotion, even if they can't feel it feel it.
got some history too, because we don't know what the hell feel me right, yeah so getting back to it, and actually I'm glad that you brought up entropy because that reduction in phase bates phase space states is
equally, when Einstein effectively did in this
experiment he's saying right down to his box and that's why he had positive emotion, that's exactly right, because, exactly and in the context of the physical side, I promise them
absent minded professor, but I'm not that absent minded going
the curvature conjecture that you mentioned before everything hinges on curvature. Everything hinges: you'd nailed. The crux of the issue at hand
curvature where I come from in einstein's conceptual general relativity. He had too great
and many many great ideas, obviously, but bit special relativity has to do with the finite speed of light and things that travel near the speed of light and the properties of
as such paths through space and time and then gravity is when you are general activities when you add in mass and gravity and what that
the space time itself so
it turns out that there's is, the growth of effective gravity is to do is to curve and warp space time. Now we
during that on earth. When we
launch a say: you have a cannon as
and you should have a cannonball horizontally. It eventually impact the earth's surface. That will travel in occur, parabolic arc for a little bit of time, but it
Should it with enough philosophy it can actually go into orbit around the earth. That's also occur path. It has taken
You called geodesic and, if so, its trade, it's actually tracking the shape of the space time that its travelling through you
feel that if you're on one of those merry go round, fills kid Mary go last right, yeah you try to move your feet towards the metal. You can feel the the
difficult force. You know, move us right legs as you yeah, but that's actually does anyone richer and space time. That's local, that's right,
or, if you ve ever been here to see world here in san, diego or
I've been on a car moving slightly faster, the maybe you should cover a bump for a moron
suspended in space time and then you come back down. It feels like that, of course, you're actually travelling and let's call the geodesic wishes in tropical minimizing, so its order producing is produced.
a translational map through space time that minimizes your path length, just like
If you travel from miami to london, you don't take a straight line. You take an hour geodesic path to bring it closer to the north pole than than you would ordinarily expect, but as you,
sperience that that is the manifesto
on earth of the mass of the earth, but member. What we
trying to figure out have that mass come to be in the clump, that we call the earth and how did the galaxy that surrounds us come to be in the place while the
means that there has to be some place for matter and mass to agglomerate to fall into two coalesce to eventually make the galaxy that has the sun in it and the sun to have
material that orbits around it- that we call the earth those fluctuations in the background, otherwise
perfection of space time uniformity? I would say if, if, if we work
breathing was completely perfect. We wouldn't be here having this converse night right there being everyone. Will. I still attribute it. Yeah yeah, that's right to be a very boring universal people, often and in science, jordan
driven in my scientific colleagues, are driven by a notion of beauty.
beauty, a symmetry and symmetry is a manifestation of underlining order imperfection. Well, I
to them, the universe should be incredibly boring if the universe was actually driven by symmetry. It's actually
the deviations from cemetery, the variations perturbations that led to all the interesting phenomena that we that we know and love right. You ve seen this action our enemies from just add that that tiny dv, that's so interesting that it's a tiny reminds me of of of of
What is minimal minimalist start? You know where there's there's an art peace where everything is perfect, accept
one thing that left this left
disarray and there's a whole art form
whole. Japanese art form its associated without, and so so
Do you believe that it was the curvature that was there at the beginning of time that was responsible for thee
lack of homogeneity rather than quantum uncertainty in relationship to the location of the particles.
Or that is that the same thing or other alternative theories therein,
did so. The overarching framework by which curvature sp provides the primordial seeds for later matter to agglomerate too then
absence, have nuclear fusion ignition and then the movie place for it, as we described our you described it before so then,
Shall conditions? Have those curvature perturbations get there in the first place? Well, if they use
this was smaller than an atom, even though
you dont manifest these large scale perturbations today in a quantum field, be nonsense. Quantum mechanics and any discernible sense understood
of an atom? If we were adam sized, then we would see quantum affects all the time we see the.
put in output of virtual particles,
later become things like hawking radiation, all sorts of other things, but
in the early universe. This would manifest itself as departures for
perfect homogeneity by
the part
one hundred thousand. So let me give you an idea:
bowling jordan and a bowling ball the
four of the bowling. Ball is more
rough, then the
surface if you like, the smoothness relative to its characteristics scale, in other words, the the
duration of the bowling ball servers relative to its radius.
Far smoother than the eu
are far rougher than the universe and was at this extremely early time. Fraction of a second before what we do,
pretty is the elements that we stop spoke about before now. That's
as to a bowling. Ball is pretty smooth unless it's my bowling ball, which has all these dents in it. But but but the point being,
the the universe, is incredibly smart, a smooth, and so you only have to manifest tiny little perturbations. But that's what inflation does inflation says I didn't get to this before, but when the
made this detection and twenty fourteen, that's is described
book losing the nobel prize. We claimed we detect these waves of gravity that
causes. Scientists think we can get to the detective
smoking gun it's actually the smoke from the gun. If you will
the initial inflationary expansion of the universe now with inflation, concomitantly on avoided,
We inextricably linked is the
one of the more diverse
You cannot have inflation, which means you can
have these quantum perturbations that you are describing, which means that the framework,
then collapses once you go forward, unless you have a multi
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following a lot. So, let's let less workpeople through what inflation is first and then talk about the reality of between now and the multi versus such all. Yet
explain. It explain inflation and explain why it was necessitated as a theoretical and then an experimentally, validated construct or experimentally investigated
live in a quantum universe, we dont detective because we're kind of these macroscopic creatures,
where we're restarted vienna couple meters characterised,
scale we live here. You know tens of decades, hopefully, but but we don't let
We don't observed
that the nato second or pico second scale. We dont, observed things at the feminine meter size scale somewhere with its current
hidden to us by an averaging process that our brain you spoken about this many times. We have a fully all kind of attention that we paid to objects and beyond which we can't really say anything other than vague notions about. So we can only focus on the folleville analogy to us is that we are for
some things that are our size, so its natural to think about that we don't see quantum tigers coming out of a vacuum and then disappearing right so our mind
work and make analogies. So we now jazz the universe today as being filled with quantum field and then the
articles are just instantiated of those quantum field who has a proton field over here? That's making this dust
article or this air molecule? There's a photon field is the particles of light, etc.
the imagine the universe, the cosmos, as you know, is filled with an infinite tapestry of potentiality. It can be
A photon over here there may not be a photon. Overhear depends on the value of that quantum theory. So what
So that's so interesting that idea of an infinite expanse of potential,
because potentiality is a very strange. What would you call at scientific materialist concept because
only what's real can be measured materially, but we need
This hypothesis of something approximating an infinite potential- and you know I don't know if you know this about, I would say my work, but it's not just my work is the entire corpus of symbolic thought, as in so far as that's been interpreted, let's say: bisect glenn
Think of the recent hypothesis cosmo logical hypothesis that permeates religious speculation that the the car
hosted inhabitable, so the structured material world
is a manifestation of a multi. What a multiplicity of potential? That's chaos, that's the that's, the infinite chaos rate and so in genesis. For example, there is a process that
to me to be akin to communicative consciousness that interacts with something
proxy mating, an infinite potential. That's too
taylor marked to move about whom tahoe
without exactly that it and that the that the order that is good is extracted out from this.
Three dimensional, that's not multi.
mention multi potential field of potential. As a consequence,
of the of the action of some structuring force right in that's the that's
cosmo logically generative principle. In so experience
I mean that in the realm of physics itself, which people consider the queen of science sides
Then there is the notion of of this expansion.
Potential and you associated that with with with
item fields and also with the multi verse and so so yeah. What let's watch rule of that? It's
deeper than that is receiving the potentiality as something
intrinsic to not only the existence of our universe, but there's a mirror universe that you, I know have been acquired
Are you not familiarize with with with sir Roger parent estate
the anti universe, a fact that we have anti matter and is possible
to look at the work of Iraq. We talk about the direct see where there's
infinite set of potential states that are filled and occupied,
or occupied and depending on their potentiality verses are actuality. When did they get
instantiated. When did they get commanded into existence to use a very overburden for his right? So so this and theirs was called solid. State physics are condensed matter theory. We have
Imagine you have a bunch
he bore a crowd,
on a regular grid and are all moving, and then one guy gets teleport by some aliens that will have to talk about some other time so that one
its teleport it out. This infinite grid of people marching soldiers right
and then the soldiers kind of get nervous, so they start moving to fill in that hall. So one moves to fill in the hall where the soldier has been extracted or in a rendered out of existence, and then there
produces a hole in another place without other soldier was right. So there's a sea of that start to see this whole moving, but is the whole real jordan. I mean that the guy,
a real right, but now that one guy left and so they're filling in so now, there's this other thing called a hole and it's moving and there's an exact analogy between that and what's called condensed matter, physics that are
phone nonce not photo
the finance and how they propagate, and they have.
parties they travel at some speed. So now, you're talking about the absence of something the potentiality of that which was, and it is,
operating in a sea of possibilities as well. So I met this. I could see the sea of port. The sea of potentiality
my students and I tried to work through the relationship between anxiety.
And entropy, and we were
contemplating the this
the horizon of possibility, because I think that what people, what consciousness
This confront a horizon of possibility. It's not something.
Driven in an algorithmic deterministic manner by the states of material objects at the current time,
content with the sea of problem of potentiality, but it
so appears, and maybe this
The consequence of the principles of existence itself that that seal,
Probability is structured in a in a normal distribution of probability. So, for example, the most probable next
event in our conversation is that one or the other of us are both will utter a word
but there's some non zero probability that does the categories MC earthquake in all be swallowed up by the graph right is now it's it's
alternatively low probability event thank god, but
not zero and it's not entirely predictable, not incendiary probability. It's more higher productivity means exam
exactly exactly well in the cataclysmic events in our life occur when something
we deem of relatively low probability in this set of infinite part potential actually makes itself manifest and the
or unlikely that event. According to our conceptual schema, the more anxiety is associated with it, but is direct, is
a sense among physicists that this infinite
of possibility you, you describe relationship to direct Iraq's thought, and I didn't know about that
there's some notion that some of them
states are more likely to emerge, given the current state than others, and is that a way of conception,
raising some alternative to determinism.
Yeah. We actually had. You know concept that you know we could turn to pry into another topic, but
fine and when the titanic physicist, the of the last hundred years came up with
kind of some of our histories or a path and,
half integral description by which particles get from
to be by taking sampling all paths which they could possibly taking a goal
for me, and you directly, by going the opposite way too, and those get weighted with different or lesser probabilities to use the language that you were just saying. But I want to touch back one more year to to watch the sandman who feynman developed. That's right, that's right, and so I see when you spoke,
but this anxiety own. I do you know, because I can't I can't
history has upon castor myself to you.
How often do I have the chance to interview somebody like you, even though this is your your conversation, I want to continue with your questions but
but do something you said- and I hope again, you'll indulge me with your forbearance.
you mentioned anxiety and entropy our own asked.
Right now you know how many
from ways. Could I
make your life twice as good, like or ten times
how many ways- and I knew that I mean fears- are very like a number of ways exactly and there's there. Well, that's very good observation. That's that's part of it.
Why were also waited towards waiting, negative emotion? More significantly,
the number of ways things can go wrong is near infinite, whereas the number of ways things can be improved is that's, that's the straight and narrow
right. That's also by the way, the boundary between order and chaos in the in the dallas
actually of the world, it's a very narrow pathway, to make things better. It's not impossible
but it's very difficult. It's not to make things, but I think jordan- and I want to run this by you. Might my theory- is that you should mean into that which would devastate you. In other words, you and I
both parent parents, you ve met my children.
you know that you know that the greatest fears I don't even have to speak in a god forbid. But but
Anyone who had brought a life into existence has organised entropy has reduced. Entropy draft has invested so much into this into this beautiful creature, miracle that we call a child.
and that is one example of how your life could be made not twice as worser. Ten times worse. It could be made infinitely worse, but I
two invert that and use that as a guiding principle and get your cash
prussians about that, because it seems to me that we should be doing those things and making those network entered and tropic connections that,
we should have as many of them that they would, if removed, would, would devastate us
in other words, you can find out what you shall not going. Ok, so one of the I would say that that's one of the most
fundamental contributions of new testament thinking to old testament thinking
it emerges in part. As a consequence, you could say a narrative consequence of the conundrums, that's that are
put forward in the book of job, so the book of job is the narrative description.
The infinite numbers of potential ways you can profoundly suffer and so job is not.
Me ill in the most terrible ways and innocently ill, but
he's ill anyway. That loses any simultaneously loses his wife and his family, and then his friends make fun of them for being ill and and accused
of being sinful, thus the reason for his illness and so he's at the bottom of the deepest possible pit, and he has he contend with god,
as a consequence in some ways, attempting to where you going
with the divine to understand why it is that he's been condemned,
suffering now it turns out not to god, made a bet with satan of all things that, if Satan torture, job that or jewel that
lastly, job that job would lose his faith rights. It's very three story, but but
Carl young wrote a great book called answer to job that takes that apart great detail. But what happens next?
this story is a strange inversion of the story of job, because the hypothesis in the christian story is essentially that the best way through the alps
catastrophe of life is to voluntarily take on the deepest.
possible set of catastrophes as if they are in encouraging challenge it. Something like that.
You'd think about that metaphysically as the invitation to the cross, and so the notion is analogous to the notion that you're describing, which is the best way to inoculate yourself against
asked if to confronted voluntarily,
the same idea, by the way as the notion that the law
Your dragons hoard, more gold and the dragon gold stories are very, very old story. The notion there is that the best what you can find that would matter
Most itself is the best in your life is likely to be found, as young said, in stir, cleanness invent, inter, which meant that which you
we need- will be too far be found where you least want look grave
my cave that you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek other guy campbells exactly well. You know in your lie on one of the things you pointed out, and we will talk about this. Maybe in ITALY, where interview
you know, you had to deal with the loss of your father and which was a very dark thing to lose very dark thing to contemplate
You know you said that one of the things you did as a consequence of contemplating that relatively forthrightly was develop, a certain kind of radically
ambition.
in terms of enthusiasm, because you are interested in, but also in terms of the magnitude of the problem that you are sending out to challenge and so use
continuously solved the psychological and metaphysical problem by delving into the structure of the real at that,
ways than look darkest and most mysterious to you, and I think that is
it's something everyone should know I'd be lit
to my audiences as they go around the world more recently talking about how
destiny makes itself manifest to people in it does that by
inviting you with opportunities that sees your imagination, but also does it by calling
to use certain problems that beset you. That happened to be your problems whatever. That means in because it's not me
It's not like you're obsessed by an infinite number of problems. Europe
by that set of problems. That happened for whatever reason to be your problems, and you might say well, I wish I didn't have any problems.
then you don't have any mystery the river
that would be to say. Well, I'm gonna take the worst problem that be sets me
and delve into that most assiduously, and I think
but it is quite clear on the political front, it that's how you find the great adventure of your life
think that's a universal truth by the way, I think does- and I see this with scientists. You know whether the issue
You know that most people, don't really
recognize that science is done by scientists. You know we're not walking autonomy.
On that day, to have no feeling and have nothing invested in it and that's
I think it was sort of like almost like a coming out of feeling
I'll, be not familiar with it, but but
liberation, when you recognize your own particular dragon, if you're willing to solve it, look I mean
you mentioned the mystery and what perplexes you saw. Your car breaks down in the analogy used before it causes you anxiety, but you know exactly what you have to do. If you don't get a jack and you have to put a tyrant and you have to get on your way and hopefully will be there on time but but but
no, what the path is and is not that mysterious I've been thinking about scientists were, were confronted with an infinite.
A spectrum of
history is on a daily basis and in the rabbi
then sacks out enough. You ever met her knees, the one one other guests
if you guess that I never got to have on my podcast by jack johnson sections of the chief rabbi of of the united kingdom of the commonwealth and he his
kind of brilliant. Take you wrote a book called the grand partnership about
conciliation and cut committee between religion and science, and one thinks he
speculate on. Was you know? Why is it that scientists are the least religious
actually happen to think that scientists are incredibly religions and years more, and so we shall talk more about that, because I'd like to know why you think that yeah we'll get
before we part here yeah. Let's do that
so you're, not thinking about scientists. We are confronted with mysteries on on this daily basis, but get
after the and the ultimate mystery,
Why are we here? Y Y, you know, scientists aren't
used to answering why questions and it's almost like it's beyond our domain. But we don't like that. Jordan right with scientist, I think I think you can correct me again if I'm wrong in any way, but I think there's a narcissistic trail behind scientists. That's a good thing. You know
We have this concept in judaism, a yates or horror, or an evil inclination and a yates, or how to have a good inclination, but
like the union, there is a little bit of each and each one, in other words your evil inclination, your ear, your ear design.
For glory in the nobel prize and as they can actually cause you two trends mute that into gold and do things that are good for you and an
an unlikely that the positive qualities you want. Everybody to know to do two things
right way or whatever. That means you want everyone to get a vaccine or you can think you're doing good and can actually not be good right. So so the
point that I'm trying to make is, if you, if you
channel the propeller,
the other scientists to
solved. Cystic leonardo, cystic lee, if you, if you do
Do it and I dont know how to do it with my students right, I'm also
than the what questions, but I dont get to teach them the? Why costa, ok,
a couple of things here will go back to the scientists are more
just. Then they presuming are they part
because they believe in the in the presumption of redemptive,
they believe there is. A law goes in the world, an order that can be
discovered through rational apprehension and experimentation. Empirical experimentation,
they also believed that the truth was set, you free, because otherwise you would do science and now
it's the way and that are used when I was trying to train my graduate students to be ethical researchers, so
now, as you said, assigned
someone who does science is a person, a scientists and so a person above all, and then a scientist, and the consequence of that is that that person has to be
turned with such monday. Realities is formulating a career, and that is
only self promotion, because there's no bloody point in discovering something, unless you communicate it to people. Unless you have a network that you ve developed, you can't communicated and so is part and parcel of the scientific endeavour. But then you might ask yourself
what should be paramount right. The promotion
your career in the communication of your findings, in which case you get false research findings, all the time or the truth and part.
the answer to that is, you know if you're not assiduous,
in your pursuit of the truth? Then you can
So if I have a student who does our masters repeats deep red piece of research,
may p hark, so they claim that they fall
valid results when they didn't, because they mark about
micro level. With this reputation
well, then, as they swallow that lie there
you convince themselves that what they discovered was actually true and then
convince other people and then there's gonna be a whole set of them, never going down entirely pathological and false road
and so part of the reason that, even if you are interested in promoting new career, which you should be to some degree, the reason you should abide by the truth is because you have to ask yourself whether not you want to spend
entire life in
to getting something that doesn't exist merely to inflate your status among your peers and
with anyone sensible, because you could have,
cake and eat it too. You know you could look
where you're wrong, is a scientist and find the interesting stumbling blocks and the interesting mysteries you could die.
into that. Then you can,
discover something real and
You could have status among your peers and be claimed as someone who had a genuine contribution and build a communication network, and that's a way.
plan than being that. What would you say that
falling prey to falsehood in and warping,
the entire field? That's all ethical.
that's all an issue of fundamental ethics and which we never teach the arson and losses
we never answer to ourselves
I didn't. I released this area in a physical science. Is I mean my oh, my law school can't mathematics.
Colleagues, even my business school cause. I knew I don't know about you join, but I was never talk to teach right. So this my drawing this is- and I think for you too, I think you know
tombstone may be at age. One hundred and twenty jordan
I think it will save you. No father husband, teacher
some order like that, because because I think the
essence of who you are ill gama pilot too. I find little tiny planes and southern
California little cessnas around when I became a pilot,
the change. Why was I started a thing
but the world,
not only in our physicist or fire, whatever I'm a pilot and its approach,
a core identification,
that way. As professor and I know that you felt that way as professor, even if you're not teaching in on a daily basis in and we can get into your the travails awful way that you ve been brutally in a kind of
about my monsters in your own right,
their time, but but I just want to point-
out that we never get taught how to teach. We never get taught at least
The physical science is maybe- and we almost get get these
ethical can under that you just mentioned. We get there
barest minimum of kind of
ethical training in a in a in a one page sheet that you sign in you maybe watch a two minute, video that some at a consulting firm was
eighty thousand dollars to me, but that this the point is that you do
have the tendency in this is up in part, when my first book losing the nobel prize about its about why
discover something: that's I've only viscerally connected to you,
career and making
a living for yourself in your family, which, as you said, is by no means a may at trivial thing. I mean where human beings we have the support and theirs
and there's a lot to be said about good, honest work and the work that colleagues and I are engaged in. But we were confronted with the discovery of a lifetime, and now
not only mean, as I said before, that we had discovered you know gravitational waves, which had never been observed in this fashion and in two thousand and fourteen when we made this announcement at harvard
You know that we had discovered the aftershocks
the inflationary epoch, but that we are
discovered evidence for the multiverse and and yet what
get undone by the
humble meagre, make substance in the whole world which, in the universe, which is called dust,
I thought it was so ironic, but it's a teachable thing. We succumb to what fine in the great fine and that we mention before he said the first principle
is that you should not fool yourself and the second.
Nepal is that you are the easiest person to fool and that bees
except what's called confirmation, bias the pi hacking, and so that's downstream. As you said, the pr in the replication crisis in your field and by the way it's starting to become a crisis in my field, things like what mon shepherd chores most most discoveries aren't real if, if scientists are going to spend five percent a year in real fact, and so ninety five percent of was tripe, we were
real progress on the five percent knowledge incremental year. That's it that's her away the fifth, and so I wanna okay. So what
opened on the dust front, and then I want to tell you a little story from exodus and then we should get up this section. So what happened on the dust front, so
front. We were so consumed with this notion out and I want to speak mostly for me, although I know that it did afflict colleagues involved with this, for me,
and before it represents
the greatest idle, the talisman of all
not just of society and not just of science. Jordan, you have to imagine when people run to be president of the united states, they always
whoever is running on the democratic side, gets a letter from seventy nobel prize winners. The.
about. Why the Democrats should be president
when their results, the covert vaccines are sorry that the game
function. Research was being sponsored by the eco health alliance by peter dash egg and voucher. Seventy nobel prize winners, wrote to present in tromp to say, does is wrong. You should cancel the gain, a function, research and the people
as in other words, novel,
carries weight punches way above its way class. It doesn't just effect egghead boffins in the laboratory. It does and it does affect my fund
improbability and how many people we can hire in a given field and what the direction of the field may be that percolates to the front page of the new york times as well. So it's the most you know
and the highest example of an idol, and I always look back you know when when,
we talk about exodus, maybe we'll talk about it,
the sin of the golden calf, which is a very natural thing. But when you,
actually see Jordan, that that scientists will give their
I teach and they will literally bow down to the
king of sweden, and accept
killed in grave and image. I mean the the backing of the of the symbolism could not be more more perfect if you wrote it in a hollywood script, but it comes directly out of exodus and in our case,
in my case, this idle than a hive worship,
set. So much of my being my my
My psychology towards that it could be undone what it
came to it. Worried me, but it didn't didn't cause me to pull the plug and to not go forward. Are
say over my dead body or we're gonna publishers and what ended up happening.
we saw the pattern of polarization called curling polarization this world
these eddies that you spoke about earlier and that be spent
of the inflationary origin of the universe, because if the universe were filled with a quantum field,
at its earliest moments, and perhaps in perpetuity visa.
They d was called the influence on. This would then be the field
in which reverberations could take place. Those reverberations are the curvature perturbations that you asked about a while ago, those providing
nuclear nations sites for mattered to collapse, condense agglomerate, into which then ignited the stars which then made they supernova, which then made us so
story is an incredible story. It hinges on inflation, be incorrect
clayton hinges upon a quantum field called the info tom
in full time hinges upon a super arching structure called the multiverse for it to be filling another
inflation didn't happen once shorten it didn't happen twice. It happened an infinite number of times,
and is happening right now
unavoidable tick because it cannot be sort of superseded. It cannot be shut off and yet and yet,
We live in a galaxy, aghast,
is a very, very dirty place. It's a place filled with.
Asteroids and subatomic particles in charge particles and is filled with
Most humble substance- that's left over and thank god thank bloody god, as you might say that it does exist because we
are, as Carl Sagan called the earth a mode of dust,
riding on a sunday. In other words, the earth is a giant block of dust. The the iron,
in the hemoglobin molecule that powers,
your body right now, came from that supernova that produce the dust that
cured and mimicked with perfect fidelity the signal
that I was hell bent,
my colleagues were hell bent on detecting it mimic the
hurl mode polarization signal to a t.
And we saw what we wanted to see. An
First of all, it meant that we had seen the multiverse people on the front pages
of every headline every newspaper from san diego to new york to cnn. We have detected the first,
nickel evidence for the multiverse cohesion,
What we threw them, because I still I dont care and understand it. So you you talked about the fact that the initial quantum perturbations that existed prior to the
to our ability to detect the back radiation. Were we're consequences
gravitational waves and
talk a little bit about the fact that those perturbations could be mimicked by the bye cosmic dusty purchase
asian induced polarizing,
to be mimic by cosmic does so was the
polarization. You detected a consequence of the quantum fluctuation or was it a secondary consequence of the of polarized
by this by this by this widely dispersed dust, so
came to visit santiago. I gave you some chunks of rock they look
ordinary chunks, iraq, but there actually meteorites, and actually I give them away in my website for free. You know I I
these giveaways, where people can get it's a meteorite, its act
what you see is a meteor shower when some of the material in a meteor shower reaches the earth's surface is called a meteor right
maybe you're right. That I gave you and I give away on occasion to people go to my website- is a
think of iron and its eyes.
its cobalt, its nickel. I also I will send people the the chemical assets of it as well
because it's your so called to see that this chunk of of rock is four point. Three billion years old. It may predates
the earth formation and it shares a lot in common with the earth. One thing it shares in common with the earth is that has a magnetic susceptibility if you
that little meteorite that I gave you and you put it next to a refrigerator, magnet it'll suck onto that, like a like a parasite, sucking on a on a on a break
Ok, that that such is due to the magnetic properties of iron, which is a fairer magnet
and that will attached to a magnetic field. Just like the earth does those magnetic field
are not confined to the earth. Jordan's galaxy has a magnetic field, the
Universe at as well as a whole may have a magnetic field. But what happened was there's these pop?
because of meteorites in our local region of the milky way galaxy through which we are always looking like a dirty window like looking through a dirty window,
unavoidable we live in a galaxy, so we thought we'd have
outside the galaxy just which is technologically and almost theoretically impossible and go outside
and away from this dust. So we're stuck inside this dusty cloud, this dusty region again, thank god for it, because without it there wouldn't be blood and our veins and there wouldn't be a planet for us to sit on, so it it it's a camera, it it it gives and it takes away. In this case it took away the nobel prize because the magnetic field of our galaxy can cause the same. Twisting curling eddies of the emission from these meteorites or these dust particles as well, and that provide
did the chimerical illusion that we had seen exactly fidelity to the origin. If the universe began with inflation, the exam,
same pattern. It's almost devilish, it's almost say tanning, because in exactly mimic too, of course we knew about it. We weren't in a babe babes in there was, would it make a blunder innovating put our thumb in the front of the lens capper, but
did our job a week. We set believe de waited that probability. We assess it
set up. It's not like, as likely as the explanation that we found, of course, that the opposite is true right to say that the universe began out of us spawned nuclear nations site within the multiverse, preventing
but your sites for examinations, and that's a much
while the story to believe in retrospect, and we the detective
from our galaxy, but they do
I want to condemn I myself to watch too harshly, or my colleagues too, because we immediately tried not only to falsify that hypothesis. We work with.
our team, which was our competitor, which
a billion dollars, satellite called the plank sunlight.
we had been hot on the trail, the exact same signals that science is very competitive. You know you mentioned all these different traits of science. Scientist all the time yeah, I always say scientists are like children right, we're we're curious or playful, where
when's the call but
like children, we don't like to play with others. Where, were you know we're jealous we're petty? We have all the good qualities of of children, but we have a double edged sword. We have some of the name of some of those are the desire for credit and for application for attention. I'm speaking for me specifically here, but this is
common affliction, especially when the stakes are as high as they are to say that we live in a multiverse, which is the direct conclusion of this
discovery if it had held up, which it did not so
results were registered. What's this step,
this of the quantum fluctuations
old agglomeration theory. Now you didn't provide evidence that it was the case right is
still the extent theory in relation. Yes, the initial agglomeration of matter it, and if it is an idea that theory you doesn't mean, I guess your claim to have provided evidence or exactly we made the most precise detection ever of this.
of signal it. Just the interpretation was wrong. We did make a blunder, we didn't say there's faster than light neutrinos. We made an exquisitely, precise measurement of dust in our gallon.
Which is useful by the way, because what we see will never see a unit one, as I said, until we get out of the galaxy, which won't even happened. You know with with,
trillions of dollars, a funding, its physically impossible, so until
we're always can be measuring a combined signal, a petition
cosmic signal. Pleasant, actual does signal so now
with other experiments, including the experiment that I led with my colleagues at the unit
pennsylvania at princeton at berkeley and Chicago called the simons observatory funded by Jim simons at the simons foundation, maryland simons in that
project is a hundred and ten million dollar project in the atacama desert of northern chile, which has
as one of its too
as one of its pieces of apparatus, Jordan has a dust detection expire.
So the only way to get rid of a systematic experiment, a systematic
contaminant is to dedicate
and a whole new experiment. To imagine you ve got your thumb on the scale and your pouring your coffee beans and you're gonna
too few coffee, I do another experiment and distribute just. I saw my thumbs and is good for us. We
have to do a separate experiment. We have to dedicate some of our
really exquisitely produce detectors. My colleague, suzanne stags at princeton makes these
no one's ever made anything like what she's been able to do with her group and they detect that the the faint
possible microwave signals from the big bang, but they can also detect dust. So
dedicated you role not be forward now exist
actually, so she has channels during that only measure dust which, if you had told me twenty five years ago, you're going to be measuring dust I'd say I thought I was interested in the biggest questions and if I want to study dust, I can follow my my my teenager around right yeah. I don't. I don't need like a to build. One hundred million dollar know we
the combined total signal was attracted does signal. What will be left is the cosmic signal
and we hope to have first light or first migrants.
that instrument in the coming next year, oh well, can grow
patients are not so let me closeness
with his ex into story, because I think its relevant to while the metaphysical speculations we ve been indulging in, but also, I think it's fine
graphically relevant. So when moses,
before Moses emerges as a as a leader of his people,.
He encounters the burning bush and that's a very interesting story because
What happens is Moses is basically out for a strong and something attracts his attention.
Now it's not a burning oak tree, it's not a volcano. It's something that flight
there is in glimmers on the edge of his perception, you might say and attracts so detractors,
reality, and he decides that he's going to investigate that which attracts is curious.
Now the burning bushes and paradoxical manifestation, because its being- and that would be the boy sure the tree, the small tree- that's alive, that's being
but is also becoming because fires
of transformation, and so the burning,
which is a symbol of the paradox of existence, which is that things are and are become,
at the same time and so
this is attracted by this, and he decides to investigate it, to inquire into its nature and
Consequence of his inquiry into its nature is that the voice of being itself speaks to him right and that's
Physically, how god announces himself, he says I am that I am, or I am, that I will be, or I was that I am now it's it's a statement of the
of being in the idea behind that story. Is that if you assiduously
pursue that which attracts
attention. The voice of being itself will speak, the ultimate truth to you and that's a hell of a thing.
I understand, and so when you're trying to
Each year, students, ethics, you can say, look
You can subjugate this, sir.
for truth to your venal ambition, but the cost
will be that if the voice of god beckons to you from the unknown you'll miss it.
And if you think about that for like thirty's
and you have any wisdom at all. There isn't a chance in hell that, if you are the least bit why's that you would
but the exigencies of your ambition, even if their nobel prize oriented, above
the possibility that the structure of reality itself could reveal itself to you as a consequence of you having the delightful opportunity to pursue what most, what effectively attraction
the reason the better deal, the knot and scientists
you're, a real scientists are imbued by that desire and they believe the two, because they do
If that is the investigate. Something no matter
trivial dust, let's say no matter how contemptible that,
consequence of that will be that they will be able to appear into the furthest. Expanses of of what would you say that
sacred fundamental realities of existence itself and all of them seems to be true. So that's it
the ethical lesson for students to know about it.
He had to be open to what your eyes can see right. The the guitar speaks
being able to hear the smaller. The catechism of the jurors faith is here.
not see don't follow up
what your heart leads.
a stray and actually says duprat to prostitute, prostitute yourself. After what your heart wants, no here
here is a passive, but you can be
the ties to, and I absolutely appreciate that Jordan. I appreciate, while that's also a matter of a rather than thinking and imposing your desire onto the phenomenon, which is what you said
attempted by new described lie is that you have to,
The phenomena speak for itself and finance
by the way mean shine forth. That's the original there
vision of the term.
Phenomenon is something that shines forth right and it does in fact attract your attention and if you pay enough attention
will you be rewarded for what you pay and you'll be rewarded by a glimpse into the structure of things, and that can help you
and saw yourself to the catastrophe of existence itself right by.
bring into that underlying structure and to feel as a car.
Once in some manner, in harmonious relationship to the cosmos itself, and there isn't a better price. The not there is that's right
for everyone watching and listening. That was brief, walk through the entire structure of cosmological.
Already at a relatively low resolution, but in the very interesting manner, and so thank you for taking is on us through,
ninety minute, long, thirteen point eight billion year trip much appreciated
you taken the time to talk to me today in towns. Are all my questions and to everyone whose watching it lessening your time and attention is always a priest
It is not taken for granted and to the daily, where plus people
for making this conversation possible for facilitating it, that's also much
created. They bring that about you.
of you who are listening on you to buy. Now it's all current
the daily wired that's big deal on their part, a real public service. As far as I'm concerned and tuna,
crew here in where the hell am I
Oh yes, I'm in miami abbe army in florida and so on and doing this part
asked I'm going to continue to speak too dark keating for
Thirty minutes on the daily work plus platform about some of the autobiographical issues that we described and if you guys
interested in pursuing this conference
further and more psychological direction, then jump
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getting it was wonderful talking to you and to everybody who is listening and watching shower the sea again,
Hello, everyone. I would encourage you to continue listening to my conversation with my guest on daily wire plus dot com.
Transcript generated on 2023-04-18.