The looking very much forward today to speaking with doktor brian kidding. I met him recently in miami look through the telescope at is beautiful, sandy in your house on the coast. He gave me a moon rock, which has very nice of em. We had a very good conversation, I'm looking forward today to talking to him about the unfolding of the cosmos logical landscape on the broadest possible from the big bang forward. As I mentioned, he's a cosmologist and also chancellor's, distinguished pressure. Physics. Is you see San diego? He is also the author of more than two hundred scientific publications, the equivalent of between sixty and seventy phds. By the way, till you S, patents and the best selling books into the impossible. Think, like

well prize winner and Losing the nobel prize, the latter, was selected, one of amazon editors, best nonfiction books of all time. He received his bachelor of signs from case western and ninety nine. three and a phd from brown in two thousand. It was later opposed, doctoral fellow at stanford, and caltech in two thousand and seven he received the presidential early career award for science, and the engineers from president george w bush, for inventing the bicep telescope located at the south pole and arctic he is also a commercial pilot, was indicted, into the international air space hall of fame and twenty twenty two doktor kidding,

do you start started by telling everybody what your primary focus of concern is as a researcher and then, let's delve into what what you can bring to people as a consequence of that research, what they need to know both of the color, the cosmic structure, let's say yeah, so I always ask people on what's the most important day on the calendar to them, and usually I get some version of you know christmas or my birthday or my hopefully for them, I my spouse's birthday and it's an origin story, and I think humans are fascinated with origin stories. How did we come to be? because we don't know where we come in, as they say in media, raise in the middle of the story and How do you get to understand what happened before you that the pre history and the biggest pre history of all is how the cosmos came to be. and my research centres on the oldest fossils of the earliest epoch in the universe. Ahmed experimental cosmology stooped even discussed many times with

theoretically inclined individuals, actually EL the telescopes, my colleagues and I my students and I we build telescopes that peer back as far as possible using light, not alights, not light. We can see what the human eye it's in the form of microwaves, because the universe has been expanding for some thirteen point, eight billion years since a big bang and we'll get to question of whether or not there is more than one big bang I help later on and there universe as it expands as cooled off from a fiery hot hell, scape of an inferno too. a more and more in a moderate climate that will support the existence of planets and and people in all sorts of other interesting forms of matter but the key, and of how the matter came to be in the first place is really purview of what I do as an experimental. So my job, experimental. This does not approve theorists right. It's to prove nothing else wrong, and then what were left with will be a key

sir approximation, to the truth, which is that we live in this incredibly intricate, fascinating universe filled with the most mysterious forms of matter and even killed just listen and beings. Like you and I so that's that research in the way that we do, that is by building the most precise and accurate, tell jobs, amur made and deploying them to the most interesting parts in the universe, including the south pole, antarctica and I mountain desert of the andes mountains in chile, as well as into outer space. So it's kind of every. You know boy's dream to grow up to be a rocket scientist to build stuff to shoot rockets into space to to go to these far streams and the beauty of it is I get paid to do it. So that's my: must my research focusing so why are we start with the comments you made right at the beginning of that explanation? You said that you build telescopes the pier, back into time, and you might want to explain to everybody would be lodged people

listening who understand that, but, though, be people listening who don't? Why is it that, when you build a technologically sophisticated telescope computer out into the vast depths is that your also looking back in time so I'll tell us? about are time machines of a sword and that's by virtue of the fact that light as fast as it travels, and it is the fastest propagating, entity that we know about in all of science. It travels about this far about one foot every nanosecond, so if you convert nanoseconds two miles and convert a you, a feature two miles and nanoseconds two seconds. It travels about a hundred and eighty six thousand miles per second, which is pretty darn fast, but it's not infinite so there or, whenever you're looking at something you're not seeing it as it is right now, you're seeing it as it were, It was some time in the past and the

farther away. Something is the longer the lie travelled to reach your eyes or to reach our telescopes telescopes. His eyes of a different sort. There might be sensitive. microwaves in the case of the telescope than I build radio waves gamma rays, but Like your eyeballs, your eyeballs are two refracting telescopes. They have lenses, they have detector and so when we look at the sun and I'm not advocating as a professional astronomer, never the sun, with your remain good. I, but when look at this on your seeing it as it was in that period in which it was eight minutes ago, because as now, three million miles away, and if you convert feet per a second or miles per per second or miles per hour. You get it takes about eight minutes for to travel from the sun. That means that your The sun could disappear and we will see it. We want about it really for at least eight minutes maybe even longer so all telescope our time machines, even the telescope

embedded in our skulls show. How far back can we look now with, for example, with the webb telescope and nuts, the new to nuke, the newest large scale, deep peering telescope that was launched into space and how far back have we pushed the horizon of view now. So yes, a james webb telescope, has launched on christmas day in two thousand twenty one, and it's been sending back in a phenomenal images. What the web telescope so powerful is not. Can see farther back in time, although it can in a certain sense, but it doesnt have extra magnification, that's required to see things that are farther away. In other words, if you use a tiny little telescope, like the sort that galileo use back in sixteen o nine to spot craters? On the moon surface, you use the hubble telescope can also look at the moon and it wants He things that are ill seymour

tell him the moon surface, but it won't see farther than the moon, because the moon is in the way. Now, if you look where there's no more, where there's no planet, where there's no galaxies, were there's no absorbing matter whatsoever. There You're, seeing back to the creation of whatever light your telescope is sensitive to now visible it has only been around for billion years because spe for that time, because of the universe is good expansion that light red shifted and has gone from visible light to infer light which is invisible to our eyes but highly visible, and that is the quarry that the telescope is seeking nothing farther than the infrared, then you ve come to microwaves, which is what I study so the law where the wavelength alight you're, looking at the farther you can go back in time, not because you're in he did buy something, but because the source very source that you're looking at has been a diminish in in intensity and has been written by the expansion of the universe, which is a phenomenal discuss?

that we only known about for less than a hundred years, but because, that universal expansion we only see using particular wavelengths of light, and so that's why the earlier the universe, there's no light that we could ever see that is more primitive, then cosmic microwave background, I and my colleagues are studying so the web telescope can't see far back in time as we can, but that's really irrelevant. It's designed to do something very specific. Look at the first galaxies that form the first stars and exo planets in other stellar solar systems in our own galaxy, and because of that, it's the phenomenal machine and is unrivalled in its capability. Lean into the simple benefits of proven science with alicia health. Lease is dedicated to tackling the biggest challenge in health aging they

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Let's, let's have you explain what the electromagnetic spectrum is, because people are not Internet security know what the relationship is say between visible light and and and my wave radiation they might not I that those are very varied forms of radiation is very similar in its essence and all to explain why the red shift occurs and how that discovered. I suppose yes, yes, so a spectrum is characterised of light light has three major properties that we we discuss a scientist? One is its entire, city how bright the light is, and the other is the color of the light and the third, something called polarization which happens to be my area of some specialty, not pollute polarization, but it's an actual useful former polarization that has the orientation of the electromagnetic fields but all forms

light now people hear radiation, they get scared of the bomb go off. Is there some nuclear react? I dunno has nothing to do with that. It's just a generic term that scientists call light of different wavelengths, so you a rainbow which has an bennett, number of colors. There's people say there: seven colors, the famous roy g biv. We learned about an elementary school, maybe but there's action infinite number of colors, because the the number that describes the collar of light is called its wavelength and the way of light is a continuous number can be. Any number can have any number of decimal places, so The continuous number, therefore there's an infinite number of real numbers. Therefore, the spectrum is not screen in seven different increment. So now a man. you, go beyond the red color you're going to the left of that red color and actually this was sperm and done by very famous scientist in herschel and even eyes, newton did somewhere types of experiments where they took the sunlight. They refracted it through a prison.

so we ve all seen his presence that dispersed light, and they had learned different colors coming out of different angles and that's the property of a prism that causes it too. A rainbow from ordinary white light and what newton herschel did. Is they put a thermometer? They went into the red line, they put a bulb of an ordinary thermometer and they kept move Yet until I got beyond the red and then they ve that beyond the red color still something coming in causing the mercury to rise in this thermometer. So there was clear There is other light of a longer wavelength. They knew about the wavelength of light and longer wavelength is what we associate with heap now the opposite side. If you go pass the violet side of reggie bid. You come to something ultra violet ultra ultraviolet, is also invisible. We know about that from the sun, the sun, it produces damaging uv, ay and uv radiation. That's not any different, except for the fact it bites characterise wavelength since whether is shorter than violet light infrared

the longer than then red light and to keep going the directions, there's photons and wavelengths of light in all different directions. Ad infinitum tell that to the high frequency or short way link, and it goes infinity in the other direction. Economic infinitely long now be called a radio waves. So that's the electromagnetic spectrum. Now with if ever listened a siren approaching. You ve heard the familiar doppler shift, that's interesting, doppler and doppler and Wolfgang Mozart grew up in the same town in salzburg. Austria, I like to think there kind of enjoying the? the irony of that fact that they both have this fascination with sound and its phenomena, and the spanish and or dilution of the wavelength of light is actually the result of a doppler shift, which is actually analogous today the increase in pension decrease in pench that one hears when an ambulance. First

protests you with its siren on that page is increased and that's called ablution meaning it goes to shorter, sound, wailings or because to hire pitches as it goes away. The opposite phenomena happens network here this characteristic rise well as it moves away from you and that's an analog reggie on the same thing, happens in light. So if you have, if you approached by a police car you trying to get away from it. It's blue light we'll seems slightly more red because it's about italy moving away from you now I have to go a large fraction of that in tremendous speed that I spoke about earlier to get even a tiny minute shift in the wavelength either higher or lower. So red shift that we observe for the universe was discovered. early, nineteen hundreds and it was discovered that we can babies leaves little nebula. Their first called spiral. Nebula, we didn't know if they were part of the milky way galaxy. Some said there

outside the milky way galaxy with. That, then makes sense because put yourself. the frame of mind of a site. since then the nineteen hundreds, even the great albert einstein, This was all there is to quote a sign that the unit this was the milky way galaxy and that the paper it was proposed to think about something beyond our galaxy, because our me, beyond our universe, now, is. Ironically, we talk about things be under universal and get into some of that. We discuss them, diverse and all the bet, but the universe was and to be much larger than the milky way galaxy and factor galaxies Sighed the milky way galaxy that we observe the most as one being the drama nebula, which is now called the great spiral galaxy andromeda galaxy, it's actually the or this thing, Jordan, that you can see what the human eye. If you look up and a clear night you can see a smudge and I'll show you the next time you in san, diego, I will show you a clear smudged through my telescope, and you can. through your name with your naked eye as well. That smudge is particles of light photons.

Coming from a galaxy and those photon set out on their journey to your. I wear there were hominids walking around on the serengeti plains of africa. This is the light that reaches today's three million years old has been travelling for three million years lucy was was extent, so that light from that galaxy is not being read, shifted or blue shifted tremendously. But if you look at, other galaxy we can see about a hundred billion galaxies and each one at least a hundred billion stars and each one of Stars probably has tens or thousands of minor bodies asked? what's planets around them, the numbers are truly astronomical. But if you go back look at and we see a hundred billion galaxies. Jordan of those your billing galaxies all. But twenty show their light there characteristic spectrum is shifted to the red some by tremendous amounts and that plies, just as it would You were at the scent if you're in the city and you

all these ambulances and every the ambulance you heard as if it was moving away from you, you heard. Every sirens whale b, red shifted to lower and lower pitches. What would you conclude? you oughta conclude you're at a very special location where there is just an accident and the bodies. cleaned up and taken away the hospital or that every part of the city is experiencing all these are all the ambulance. Drivers are on strike in everybody's leaving, and so the reputation that Edwin hobble began megan nineteen twenty nine. This is not a hundred years. All out it's incredible, observation that every galaxy exhibits, a red shift, that is ever galaxies, moving away from the milky way galaxy the milky way, galaxies, no more special or or more important than any other galaxy. Therefore, all galaxies two high approximation are moving, from one another and that sounding observation of physical fact, that we observe that when extraction,

to the future means the universe is, can become more de dilute and in the past, much more tightly condense compressed and preserve We began its is in its infancy, with what we call the big bang show You want to explain why the farther galaxies are away faster they're moving away and is also the case that it the red shift. That explains the fact that the night sky is primarily black instead of lit up is ever. Am I correct in the latter assumption in and then let's go to the former question? yeah. The latter question is related son called olbers paradox, which is that an infinite universe, populated with an infinite number of objects. Stars in this case no matter where you were in that universe? You would look and your eye, your line of sight would terminate on the stars surface somewhere

be really far away, but eventually your I would come to rest on a on a start. So that would mean that it's a paradox that our night sky, we we have in a day. We see just one star, but even at We don't see any stars. There are any other nice guys. Intensity is nowhere near as close as the surface of the sun, let alone the infinite intensity of an infinite number of sons. In its if you were in a forest. Imagine a beautiful boreal forest and and its as effectively infinite Trees are finite with butter and theirs, at some distance away from you, but there's an infinite number of these trees and, as you scan around your local horizon, all you would see his body. All. You would see the trunks of these trees. That's all where's paradox for trees and what your brain, Is this notion that was interesting? we really encountered and and proposed, and even a solution, perhaps by girl, Allan POE, the great poet an eighteen hundreds he can do

should this idea that it's kind of strange that, while we we are told we live in an infinite universe of even the Give a galaxy could be infinite in size. We didn't know back then in the nineteenth century, and so it began to be Paradoxically, the resolution of the paradox is your pointing out is: is several full one? Is that the condition for the night sky to not be dark. that the universe is infinitely old that universal. infinitely big and at the Universe is static, stars are not moving in that simple minded paradox as the trees are not moving in the older people. I analogy for treats those trees are. Stationary, the forest is infinite and The light has had enough time to travel to your eyes, because the universe is infinitely old, so any one of those. Three propositions is falsified. Then you can demolish the path. The paradox as paradox, and so the resolution. Interestingly enough comes down to

All three of those are true or false. it would have been enough. It would have been sufficient falsify one or more of those of the three propositions: universes infinitely old infinitely, big and static, but we actually know now that universe isn't any one of those three at least the universe, that we can observe so now you asked about the how we can think about the expansion of the universe are how we can determined that or how it was determined, as is I can t ramanujan yeah yeah yeah yeah, well in why why the more distant galaxies are moving away from Astor? That's right! the analogy that astronomers use. No analogy is perfect right. We're dealing with things not just in a three day tens of space. But in the fourth dimension what we call space time, so we the visualize things that are really on visualize, the by the human mind by our own limitations, and so we may now so one of the most common analogies is to think about I'll. Give you two

one is to imagine a balloon with little dots drawn on the balloon surface, the balloon, sir the two dimensional as you ex blow up the balloon the galaxies move away. The dots on the balloon surface move from one another and they with exactly that property that a gallop, that is one centimeter, our dot. That's one centimeter away from another galaxy, our dot we'll move twice as much in the same amount of inflation or expansion as a galaxy that is half a centimeter separated or a dot to dots that are only five millimeters apart from one another, but that's confined to the two dimensional surface, though a little bit hard to maybe project into three dimensions in our minds, so another one that people uses imagine making a raisin bread, a bread and cheese put a bunch of raises inside of it, Two has the exact same property if you sit on any rayson inside the bread and you watch, what are the other raisins doing, the all

I will be observed to move away from you. There won't be any gravitational attraction between you and another reason. seal actually observance like a perfect expansion of the universe? From your perspective member, I said there are about two, or more galaxies that are gravitationally attracted to the milky way and they are blue shifted because are falling towards us and will eventually combined into it. You know mega galaxy called milk dromedary sunday, but that doesn't it and for reasons or for dots in a balloon, so the law that describes that type of expansion in are raising Brad populated with raisins in three dimensions or a balloon when dotted with a magic marker marks in two dimensions, those too Those two phenomena are exactly displaying. What's called hobbles law, which velocity of every galaxy, we see beyond a certain distance. That's a minimum distance that we don't have gravitational interact. between us and them down galaxy we're moving away directly proportional what's known as hobbles constant, so there

osity in meters per second miles per hour in a furlongs a decade whenever you want will be directly linear. It's the simplest la manageable. Besides The constant it'll be moving linearly proportionate to its distance away from you and that's it standing observation and that's the only type of observation that can produce the type of- pictures that we see in the universe. In other words, it could have been travelling as the velocity scaling as the square of the distance to cuba. The distance there square root of the distance, whatever We live in a much much different universe and it wouldn't have any the characteristics that we observe

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when I read stephen hawking brief history of time, which is it's gotta be twenty years ago. proximate its forty almost forty years. All there is food guard. Well, that's what happened at all the big effort collapse. So at that point in my memory. If my memory serves me properly, the standard cause biological model was that we emerged big bang in the universe was expanding, but that at some point it would contract back on itself, and this was harking idea, anyways and then clocks back down into a into another singularity, whatever existed before the big bang, but is my understanding that over the last few decades, the evidence evidence has accrued in it incontrovertible manner that the rate of expansion is actually increasing rather than decreasing, and that's I believe that the great mystery that's propelled, scientists to posit the existence of such

phenomena as dark energy, have I haven't, got that right and What's the current state of thought about the fact that for all explain why that's surprising, at the rate of increase or the rate of expansion is increasing, explain why that surprising, and then, when you explain how that view has changed the time and we're we're out now apps. yeah. So I got to hear stephen hawking speak at the royal astronomical society meeting in london and ninety ninety five, and it was back when he could He couldn't speak for a very long time, so he wasn't able to actually speak in real time, but it could move fingers and he can move his eyes and he can type on this very special keyboard which the ex husband of his current nurse at the time had invent that's a whole other story. I can recommend a book by french, while site called hockey hawking, and it was for business of stephen hawking, and I he could answer one. question I would take them about ten minutes. Answer a question. Someone asked him in the audience: professor hawking europe.

to be the most brilliant man alive, and yet you ve written. This that almost no one besides you know, a younger, join petersen, perhaps had read cover to cover. Why did you write this book? and he answered and his computerized synthetic voice. Because my I needed to pay for college. It is interesting that this great man, this great intellect you, know trapped in this body that had been robbed of all of its physical kind of manoeuvring and, and so forth was was facile with his mind, was really an incredible thing to see when hawking, wrote that book. It is true. There was expected she was that the universe would eventually collapse. Lines of would eventually undergo it's called a big crunch, which is essentially the opposite of the big bang. We would observe if we were living billions of years. Hence the story went that we would see. galaxies being read, shifted but galaxies being blue shifted because we're all going bind and eventually into a cop perhaps of enormous if you, like,

mutational time bomb that would probably play out over in oats and if not trillions of years, so I kept advising people that keep pay their taxes, but at the At the time we didn't know about the substance called dark energy and what so supply. sing about that and what kept Einstein really flummox for the first part of is of his career was the We only knew of a few different forms of matter and energy in the universe we knew of matter. Stuff, the stuff that were made, and we knew of light and energy. where's. That only has matter and light. impossible to not have a gravitational collapse. Just as the same is true, if I take object, a ball or an apple, and I thought For some velocity, it will still come back down unless it reaches what's called escaped velocity and perplexed flexing thing about einsteinian general relativistic gravitation that still mystifies me and experts is that when you add mattered to the universe and actually makes it expand faster, which has come

intuitive. You think, if, more gravity in the earth's surface. The ball would Apple would actually fall down, even quicker, which it would, but but in the case, of what we describe the expansion of the universe, we're talking about. Velocity, not acceleration so the crucial distinction, the universe can have objects, moving faster away from each other, and that doesn't involve necessarily their acceleration. So what einstein did to counteract that He was a pretty smart guy right here, Dorothy said, while the universe doesn't seem to be collapsing. So such must be some hidden form of energy that we don't observe and that option unobserved matter. He called the cosmos, logical term cosmos, logical energy source. We later the cosmos conjugal constant, and now we call dark energy as you as you proposed? What that does by adding in matter you get anti gravity. Are you had an energy, pure energy? You get a form of anti gravity almost as if you know it's a comic book europe,

a dream that you could suspend? gravity that you could freeze, the motion of objects attend to want to combine with one another. So he then had a mechanism contrive it was too explain why the universe appeared static as it did in nineteen, twenty and ninety ninety, then. As I mentioned earlier, when hobble observed, the universe is in fact not stay herr einstein. The universe is expanding, then Einstein had the brilliance the humility and the confidence to say. I was wrong and a supposedly he all the insertion of the cosmos, logical term. His biggest blunder so he was trying to account for the fact, let's just to just to get the chronology clears at that point. The unit appeared static and einstein was trying to figure out. Why wasn't collapsing who itself, and so he proposed a constant. Would you acquainted something like an anti gravity energy, but then the poor

from turned out to be even worse than it seemed to be because it was not only not collapsing and not ours. Not static and nor collapsing was expanded. Yeah oh announced the mystery that people are trying to address, while still today, with the hypothesis of something approximating dark energy, right, so the dark energy phenomenon causes not only reversal of the collapse of the universe, is in of all these galaxies, raisins or, becoming together anomaly freezes them in their tracks and actually reverses that process. So, instead of expanding linearly smoothly as hobble would envision us doing. Actually the universe starts to accelerate sources you're, pushing down on the cosmic accelerator pedal these galaxies are not only moving apart, but tomorrow they'll be moving apart, even faster at a given since only moving apart faster than they are so I

his joke. You know it's. It was a blunder of einstein to call that blunder his blunder, because it wasn't a blunder at all, and I would say I like to throw em. You know it's too bad that he made that blunder. Otherwise he could have had a good career but this case, when we look at what einstein was conjecturing, it came back unavoidably the late ninety nineties, the observation of what are called type one, a supernova which are just used its want to know what they are, their exploding stars and fascinating objects in their own right, but there really used, as These sirens on ambulances, a great distances so in in twelve rules for life. You talk about the value precision of speech while the most import Four cosmetology is precision cosmology. When I a graduate school in the in the ninety nine these in the mid nineties, we did of the universe was ten billion years old or twenty billion years old. Now we know thirteen point eight to four billion years old and we have

a precision of less than one percent and we also have accuracy. In other words, we have calibrated that number and removed systemic contamination from that number really phenomenal. I mean at that time we knew of objects that were older than the universe. Supposedly there were objects called globular and they were older than the universe. That's like finding out that year older than your mother, I mean very bizarre situation and quite likely was embarrassing to cosmology? Now we know it dream precision, but with precision comes great power, power allows us to assess what is the nature of this dark energy, potentially, and not only that what is it doing too future understanding of where the universe will continue to develop in the in the far far distant future, and so if the first truly has this dark energy chimerical? form of energy unknown completely. Unlike anything, we ve ever had an experience with that Type of energy will eventually drive the universe, potentially innovation.

we have different ways, none of them good, but luckily they come about for tens to perhaps hundreds of billions of years when the universe might physically rip apart. There could be acts of space time that at all locations develop what we call similarities the brakes and all the laws of physics uncertain long before then we will have stopped having the ability to do astronomy or cosmology we will no longer be able to see any other galaxies after a certain. After the universe, expanded so much those galaxies we'll all be read, shifted so far out of observational constraints that we won't even know. We live in a galaxy. We'll just think this The entire universe so, ironically, will be back to the way the state of a as was in pre nineteen, twenty nine our planet earth understanding of cosmology and with the precision that I mentioned before that we know the age of the universe. We know it spanish rate of the universe. We can do astounding things we can go back.

in time and ask just as we do with, with, I remember when I, when my children turned two years old, you take so the pd office, and they measure their height and basically, It got this rule of thumb, based on the statistics of a hundred billion people that have lived on planet earth to date. That, The child will be about twice as high twice tall as he or she is at age too, I think I'm going right. I am a doctor, but I'm not that kind of a doctor right. So yeah check those numbers, but they basically extrapolate. So imagine if you went and you go the pediatrician, and then you come back in ten years, fifteen, twenty years and the kid is like thirty times bigger than that high or or one tenth is tall. We say this is crazy. There's something strange going on your tables are all messed up. and your actual statistical sample not a good representation of the parent population, no pun intended So the question becomes: how accurately can you estimate how fast the universal be expanding today very

thirteen billion years ago and there's what's The tension, the two numbers disagree, and they disagree by a violently unacceptable amount. the measurements that we deal with the cosmic micro background radiation, suggests a universe that is a very and billions of a billion years younger. If you like them, the universe that we see using the type when a supernova and that tension A lot. A billion years is a big difference in so each one precise? Not once the count? That's the current broke, a current problem. That's occur, problem. We don't know the hubble constant value. It disagrees at once called five standard deviation. So there's up a one point: and several million that it could be a statistical fluke in their both thereof, actually the same or it could be that the of the early universe, that I study is very different than the physics the late time universe that my colleagues who study supernova study this

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Dot com, slash upgrade twenty. So ok, so walk back. Thirteen point, eight two four billion years now in principle, correct me. If I've got any wrong, all of the matter and energy that constitute the current universe, visit and invisible is collapse to all too, to a point that isn't even a pinpoint is infinitely small, an infinitely dance and there's a cataclysmic, explosion, that's the big bang. There still part of the standard, cosby logical model still and accepted, let's say fact, and then why don't you walk through what happens as the universe? Unfolds from that point onward, including accusations or known facts about the early the difference between the early periods that you just described, maybe even in terms of fundamental cause. Logical laws and later periods

now- and we might also throwing these caviar too- is that as far as I've been able to determine its still Axiomatic presupposition among scientists that the laws of physics that obtained at the point of the singularity, are not the same laws of physics or at least can't be to be that govern the first has its currently unfolding. So, let's go back then we'll walk through all of that actually I'm glad you set it in those terms- is actually to start not with the beginning, which is big you ass, witches hotly debated, which is contestable and those are all good things about the scientific process but actually to start with today. So let's go back from today, when we think we understand the laws of physics that that are, you know, presented to us and go back in time to a point and at before which we don't understand the laws of nature because

you start, you know if you start from a point of ambiguity and uncertainty, and then you attempt to extrapolate forward your less likely get the right answer than if you kind of go back historically and ask when do we lose sight of the plot line? When do we lack our understanding of the laws of nature, starting from today, we see or forces of nature. There cut there too clear forces called the strong and weak force that govern the behaviour of atoms and radioactive decay. and then there's lots of electricity and magnetism that govern everything from electromagnetic communication like we're doing right now, two refrigerator magnets to magnetic levitation and in future You know how full transportation mechanisms and then there is the law of gravity which is perhaps most familiar to us. When we try to get out of bed every morning were fighting against the entire mass of the with our meagre masses. Hopefully you know maintaining the the battle every day to get out of bed and make your bed in the morning so this phenomena.

These four phenomena are familiar to us and we can actually go back a great distance in time when anne and even staying only in space where we are right now, let's take the earth back and we go back four billion years. The earth condensed out of this shroud. no other supernova that had explore it perhaps a billion years before that in our local arm of the milky way galaxy. Let's go back more billion years, the dark energy that we spoke about earlier, began to dawn in the universe, started to accelerate faster and faster roulette, still is, and the laws of classical physics and quantum that we understand. Let's keep going back our back say ten billion years ago, the first, the first stars that were ever made are all long gone they, while blown up and into these type type one population. Three events that A web telescope is hopefully going to shed more info light on, and then you go back even are there hundred million years before that, so you know you're going back from thirteen a billion years, let's say today we're we're talking on a friday. We go back there friday, thirteen point

a billion years ago. Ok, if you just can't, going back seven times, twenty four just keep counting the weeks and beers and you'll reach some day, and no be some day that three minutes you know earlier the laws physics that we really understand. No in love, gravity electromagnetism. The strong and weak nuclear forces that they all free into the configuration that we can understand today. In other words, once you go beyond that and it is type of event horizon in the sense that it may be forever shielded from our vision, Once you go beyond that that gap, you can no longer speculate with the knowledge and certainty and precision that we have today it's kind of marks, a boundary and ignorance boundary. An egg her horizon, beyond which we can only speculate, but speculation is fun and it's great to do an end, I appreciate as much as my theoretical colleagues do forever sperm. I look at the shrapnel and the fossils and what

left from the universe that we can observe today, If it's very old, like the light of the cosmic mercury background, is very old, oldest lay in the universe. I still can you that to glean information about their period. You know three minutes after midnight on some friday. Thirteen, a billion years ago right. So we can look all the way. We can't look all the way to the big bang itself. We can look some fractions, seconds after the big bang, when the laws of physics sprang into existence, and we have the beginnings of the inn. Actions between matter and energy that we see today, but there's a boy through their prior to that item, that debt can't peer into it. The moment now to talk to me, we'll tell everybody about what the cosmic background we radiation is, and why the started out, and how that enables us to peer back really too, as close to the beginning of time, as we can manage yeah exactly the cosmic migrate background- is the left over heat from the future,

and of the very first elements on the periodic table of the elements. So lightest elements in the universe are hydrogen and helium, and they have isotopes each one has a couple of different isotopes, meaning they have some more are fewer neutrons in their nuclei. These are not Adams, though you're, just the nuclei of what would eventually become the caliph chemical elements and atoms, so the nuclei. I are fused in the first few minutes of the universe of our current observable universe have to be very precise here. We can't say, the big bang was the beginning of time. We don't know that most people soon, that the universe with the universes origin with the big bang came the beginning of time that raises all sorts of of harry paradoxes that are really quite difficult approach both from the laws of physics perspective, but even from metaphysical perspectives. You know what was how does tat come into existence when, when There was a moment before that existence was even possible. Can you even conceive of such a thing? How do you

The motive change the motive force, if you will to go from acts to delta, X, plus delta or t plus delta if there was no time at that at the zero point. So these are metaphysical questions and I should say there are many emma and serious cosmology who do speculate. What would the universe look like if there were in a quantum singularity at the origin of time. There were no origin of time. If you will whatsoever and have spoken some of them, roger, penrose and and and others, but but the point being that there are alternatives to that now, ninety, percent of my colleagues. Don't really pay much attention to those models, but I think it's important. At least give the impression that we for certain the universe had a quantum gravitational singularity that sprang time into existence? As you said before, in others, infinitesimal amount of of space, and in that space was all the matter in the universe, Jordan. We don't know that there is a possibility,

In fact, as the most popular possibility amongst my colleagues, but again when experimental is I dont come up with these theories I should apply. These theories wrong, so what things that I'm doing with the cosmic migrate backroom, because it is the oldest light in the universe and because, if you about the motor homunculus of a human being. We, most of our you, no kind of attention are cortex. Our brain pays attention to light the visual cortex and so our hands and our motor in our motor system- and you know this infinitely better than I do join but but light is such a powerful tool that we should do everything we can to explain all the information and these press few photons better, still over there still coming to us, are still saying hello. Here I am, I am relic fossil and I've travel time like a time machine to get to your team, scope here in chalet or an article in can I tell you about what it is like when I was born now, that's enough,

me too kind of you know just My imagination build new instrumentation, but of course it's fun speculative what happened before so I how'd you. These are the oldest particles of light. So the only thing you can say right now is that we can't use light to find out what happened before these photons were born. These causing riker background photons came to be so that doesn't mean that there is nothing we can use because nature is clever and there are many different forms of matter. energy that we can use to trace the early, first phenomenon, if, indeed, if and only if there was a universe price to say, the big bang or prior to the format of these these these ancient relic photons, so one other form of radiation- it's not electromagnetic radiation is called gravitational radiation. Gravitational radiation arises whenever there is matter in motion and when, space time. Reverberates, so famously was discovered by three four

and colleagues of mine you and your team called the lego experiment, and twenty fifteen, september, twenty fifteen, they caught the the spiral of two black holes each one, thirty times the mass of our sun. They remove a fraction of the speed of light, a very high velocity they have, They call asked into one fused: it exists We of the analogy is, I like, is fused into a giant black hole, but that black hole had a massive say. Fifty nine times is the massive, our sun. So, where did that store, one mass of the son got well. It went into shaking up the fabric of base time itself and that reverberation of space time is called a graphic general wave gravitational radiation gravitational radiation, penetrates everything when I my first here in san diego, you feel it there on the east coast, because But it's minute and its overwhelmed by a multitude of other sources of of local attention will feel distortion

as these waves of gravity travels through space time. They affect all and they go through all matter, and so we would actually way slightly heavier and then alternate with with away slightly less as ground patient wave came into the room that were in right now. That's the affair that process. Does that propagate at the speed of light yeah proper that doesn't need of light and also has the virtue that they don't they dont writ decay? Theirs for a radioactive of radioactive decay of gravitational radiation they're. Just like light, except they go through everything, so if the universe produced an enormous amount of gravitational waves capable of detected a billion, light years away from these two black holes that I described before they were located one billion light years away in a galaxy. We don't know exactly which galaxy they were in, but they cry together in a galaxy, far away from the milky way galaxy a billion years ago. Those waves gravity travelled at the speed of light for a billion years they entered in,

two different telescopes on earth and they display those telescopes by less than the diameter of an atom, and these incredible researchers were able to detect this and they ve done a hundred times since so it's a is a precision. Science just lie galileo, first a telescope to look at the moon, the of jupiter, the reins of saturn, etc. That up a whole new world, a regime of astronomy, not just to look at the moon, but to look at the entire universe using optical telescopes. They revolution now Jordan, if indeed all the matter in the universe, was, as we know at one point, the universe was far far smaller. It was a thousand times smaller than it is now every dimension that that means was, it was a thousand thousand thousand or a billion times smaller volume than it is now. Cosmic background radiation was released or produced Three hundred eighty thousand years after the initial singularity or after the origin, of our current observable universe, if

who little measly black holes. You know just there, Ashing together can cause a lot gravitational radiation. Think about all the matter in the entire universe. All black holes, they would ever be and all the staff, as all of our matter that made us up all the light. All of it coming into existence at a certain time, you would expect make an enormous amount of gravitational radiation and you'd be right, and so on. gravitational radiation would then propagate through the universe and eventually winning code and encrypt its behaviour. What's called the polarization of the microwave backroom, member I said light has three properties we talked about. We talked about three properties, the intensity, the brightness of the light we talked about the color of the light or spectrum, while the third at least now the properties of life, because our eyes are insensitive to it is the a polarisation state of light, now runs angle of travel essentially

It's the isolation of lights, a wave like you and I holding a rope and oscillating a rope up and down it's the plane that the rope is oscillating and it can be horizontal. It can be vertical. It can be any angle between. It turns out The gravitational waves have a beautiful propensity to turn the polarization of the microwave backroom in, very particular orientation and weakened by mapping the orientation of the microwave background and polarization can divine the existence or lack thereof of way. of gravity called gravitational radiation and, if detected it doesn't prove a theory that we get into called inflation, which is the most popular, a cosmo genesis model that we have gives very, very, very strong, circumstantial evidence for it. But again I'm an ex. Mental? So what do I do? Jordan? I try to kill other theories, well turns out our good friend, roger penrose. He has a theory there should be no polarization of this kind, in other words, join if

observe. My team and I observe this particular polarization configuration- improve somebody right. It proves roger wrong. It proves our colleague's wrong as well, that have alternative hypotheses, and what are those alternative hypotheses? Will the very fascinating. They do not involve inflation, but they also do not involve a singularity at the origin of time there the origin of time in most of these alternatives. So by observing the signal, we kill those models off and what's left, is a core approximation to the church and you, and did you observe this polarization Yes, we did and then yes, that's, that's that's a hangover if I've got this right, that's a hangover of events that occurred before the light itself that your measuring, which is the microwave radiation electromagnetic radiation, that it was in and about three hundred and eighty thousand years after the big bang, and so it's been

oriented in a manner by something even earlier than that that's right. I read some guy ready counter theory. I think when I was estimating year work for our part gas. That is it the case that there are but who claim that the polarization that you detected was a consequence of of the interaction between light the light your observing and and and dusted spread out in the cosmos that and yet the consequence of this early gravitational of these early nation waves. Yeah. So this is a very, very important chapter, not only in my life but its it. It will be a talk bout in future years as an example of of how science actually gets done and it's the subject of my first book losing the nobel prize and its of how that scientists can become obsessed in this case. The scientist is me: it's a memoir, my career, trying to detect these early reverberations universes, space time structure and all to see

whether or not inflation or an alternative, took place to ignite big bang that we do observe and have have action, reams of evidence to support so the existence of mark of matter, the existence of the sea and be the students of galaxies and expansion. Those all support the fact the universe was in an extremely hot and then state early on in its history, but they We provide the mechanism by which that came about, and I always say it's like this jordan when somebody says you know we're going to take biology class on the first day of gee class when, when you're in and college, they don't start off at the origin of life. In the universe, there are even so at the origin of dna rights, as almost as if the origin of the universe is outside are met a cosmo logically related to the expansion and the properties that we observe as cosmetology is so it's almost exe think too much of us to say where we also know how the universe came into existence. But again it's

super duper fun to speculate about things that you can't observe, and maybe we'll never be observable, so I wanted to do this to observe early universe and as infant state I want Do that for two reasons I most fascinated by the biggest possible questions. I always I grew up. I'm jewish, but I grew up as a catholic the young man was an altar boy in the catholic church and never had a. Metaphor: and so at the time when I should have been having apartments I was in the catholic church. I was interested in the origin of the universe. Trying to know of god existed and trying to understand our play? the cosmos, and I don't care about kind of the stand collecting aspects of of of life. I didn't care about parties and also its other things status. Sports is, I just want to understand: math science, and use my telescope, Those were my those were. My real fascinations, as young man later in life

I became I said I was jewish bought. My parents are george, my father, was a great scientists. His name is James acts have the same last name. Isn't he divorce mother and father got divorced, and I live with my stepfather, who became my stepfather, and he adopted me and I lost with my biological father for many many years for fifteen years. I didn't see him and in that period time. I knew he was a great scientist. He was a great mathematician. He was the youngest tenured your mathematics, cornell in their history- and I think, he's still holds that that distinction He went on to have a great career and I didn't see him and asked was adopted by my stepfather and a kind of this rivalry with him, Jordan and you can psychologically diagnose it as you like, but just boy might want to be a better football player wrestler than his father, I want to be a better scientists than him as greatest just ass. He was, he never won the nobel prize, and I realized I could a kind of one up

old man who had abandoned me and my older brother decades earlier, and I do what he did not and best of all. I could do it by having the most doing the most fun I could possibly imagine. Building scoffs and studying the biggest picture topic, so this became my obsession I became obsessed, and later on a proposed, an experiment with my and tore and friends at caltech roused postal to go back. I am as far as we could go back building a telescope. called bicep, which coined the name means background imaging of cosmic extra galactic polarization, but play on words, because that polarization signal I told you about Jordan, the orientation is called a curls, so the girl tight margin, funny buyer as there's are profound nerd joke for you? It is to catch that one Where I got to being a prevailing, dad jokes, preventing nerd jokes, so that expense

did detect. We detect, we claimed we detected the imprimatur of inflation and others we claimed that we saw the twisting roiling path in the polarization called chrome polarization that was thought to be conclusive. If circumstantial evidence for the infection jerry origin of the universe. At georgia. These are kind of like eddies in the stream me exact, acting in eddie on the edge and so yeah. These are remnants of things that happened extraordinarily early on you're, looking back past, theoretically, you're looking back past three hundred and eighty thousand years, the big bang hey. Let me the layout for everybody, whose watching in listening just a brief skim out of time, because you never know. There's all first people listening and you never know people known what they don't know. So, let's just take a walk. Numbers, so everybody understands a thousand and

will generally know that a million is a thousand thousand, but then things get murky at the top in stan, so a thousand million is a billion, and so we're looking at thirteen thousand millions are above thirteen and fourteen point three. In your estimation, and right now we're speaking about a time. That's three hundred thousand years after the events of the big bang, but europe four you're looking back. Even further than that, by looking at the effects of the gravitational waves on the microwave backer, then that's what you built the telescope for in the south pole so imagine you're in a room right now looking around your room, you have a horizon beyond what you can hey. It's called the walls of the room that you're in, but if something happen outside and say somebody let off a firecracker outside of the room that you're in You couldn't see it with light, but you here, was sound so

you can see things that are farther away and as we initiated our conversation, somehow farther away we're seeing light from when it was more primitive. When it was older, when it was more distant means that translates by this finite speed of to an older, more primitive existence. So right now. I know you give the explosion was loud enough. Even if you were deaf, you could detect the movement of the walls. That's right! and so I have heard that in April in the fbi, They use. The vibration of windows bouncing a laser off the windows, because will inside the rumour talking is causing reverberations of the glass and they read out and transducer sonic vibrations of them air molecules using the verb, vibrations of glass and dancing a laser, often exactly like that. We can see barely what they're doing right now will face

I hope so it'd be a good use of their of their bandwidth right. So, if you look back to that first, as I said, we can go back from friday today. Thirteen point eight billion years that some day we can go back and and that first three minutes of that day formed the, women's all the hydrogen, that's in your bodies, water, all, the hydrogen, that's in the oceans of the entire planet and all planets. Perhaps the hydrogen was formed in that first, three minute period We can go insularity. Let me ok. Let me ask you a question about that, because I want to get this exactly rate and in it also relates to something metaphysical that I wanted to ask you about. So when we go back extraordinarily close to the events of the big bang. Went are super hot super dance, we don't have any of the elements that currently make up the universe. Matter as we know it, we have a state prior to the elemental state, and so

what what's the initial state can you can you walk through the sequence of unfolding? No people should remember that, the material world that we see around us is made out of a hundred and fourteen elements, some of which, some of which are man made not easily found in nature. So, let's say a hundred justice. Rule of thumb and those elements if in there, in the complexity their atomic structure. And so the simpler elements have you have neutrons and protons and electrons that make up an atom. The simpler the element is, the fewer the new turns and protons and electrons are in the atomic structure, so they're more more complicated clumps of of subatomic particles of atomic particles to make up the elements. Now: they appear in a sequence right as the universe on folks and so but be were even hydrogen, which is the simplest elemental structure before hydrogen appears there are others its of matter and that

and not sequences all the way back to the big bang. So can you unfold how the how the periodic table mergers and then what happens before that and then we'll go back to the microwave, Then gravitational waves story yeah. So famous poet, scientists, Carl Sagan, said you know we are all made of stars were all star stuff, it's actually not really. True, we're actually cosmic stuff where, where I actually most of us as water, right jordan, so most of water is hydrogen and most of that hydrogen, if not all of it, was for during these first three minutes after the big bang or again I'll say that as a as a shorthand for europe of time in which ass before which we lose information and we become ignorant, but but that period of time leaves fossils and thus fossils are the hydrogen the helium and that we see in the universe and their isotopes. So there's really only six or seven different things that are made, but without those things They become the ingredients of the generation of stars, though

generation of stars become nuclear fusion reactor is taking hydrogen nuclei and isotopes fusing them together to make helium after our helios, the name of the sun, but the element? and was discovered, not on earth. On the sun, I was shocked my cosmology malagigi students there, the scientists had a go at night. You know for their own safety, but but healing discovered not on earth, but it was discovered on the sun via its chemical spectrum, its chemical fingerprint. So the first means hydrogen and helium are formed in the big bang. Much more helium is formed later on in stars, then, that healing makes heavier and heavier ellen and we start marching up the periodic table to make their fill out. The rest of those hundred are so elements Ok, so we have the big bang and the initial particles or electromagnetic waves that emerge How would you? How do you characterize them? Is it how how long after the big bang do you have the initial hydrogen and its variant isotopes and

there before that, before it's even hydrogen yeah. so it doesn't become hydrogen until three hundred and eighty thousand years later, when the universe is cool enough. That approach and can meet an electron and food. Together, if you like, or can dance to make a actual adam and the atoms in the universe or form. Then then, afterwards, you get hydrogen combining make helium inside case be so before that is just protons. Electrons protons you're not hang out its edge. zack here I don't know, what's call the plasma plasma is the fourth state of matter. What happens when a heap beyond a gas? You ionize you break apart the atom in constituent nucleus and its electronic content. So you get nucleus is positively charge, has made a protons neutrons and electrons urges separate individualistic particles and there's another type of article. It is very important, but we will get into called a neutrino and that that's The only form of dark matter that we know for sure exists, so you ve heard about Our manner we ve never observed any other dark matter in the union,

besides neutrino, but there relevant necessarily for either life for what we have right. I'm going to have yes plasma. You have this plasma of of proteins, bronze that aren't aren't, assume hearing with one another. Now, that's all actively uniform field are very Protons, electrons super hot! Now it's only relatively uniform and correct me if I've got this wrong, but I looked into this a while back, so it start two clump together, and the reason it clumps together is because of gravitational attraction right, clumps, together and material in an immaterial clumps. and the reason that that happens is because of, I believe, It's because of quantum uncertainty. It isn't a hundred per cent uniform and so particles some of these private Your particles are a little bit closer to others than than others are there's a slight non uniform

many about it, and now you and now you get clamping and as the clamping occurs it the the you're, the competent emerges, the more likely it is to create additional matter and then keeps happening until you get the beginning of clumps of matter that large enough to be stars, and then stars have enough gravitational force to produce additional nuclear trance or at make transformations and the stars start to generate the rest of the periodic table of the elements correct so far the actual level young guy well known that's. What how can I get from arrogant and so will we here we can talk about how the rest of the elements come into being as well. Yes, exactly I'll get your point about curvature, which is the crux of everything that you just said. Relies on a very short word It sure that we have to delineate, but first I want to take a slight deter of young indulge me with your patented barons, Jordan? There is a lot of talk,

in this, I gazed about artificial intelligence and the dangers of artificial intelligence opposed to him. amity some say it's worse than nuclear war. Elon Moscow said such things I worry about the more pedestrian but still more important things like loss of jobs and an meaning in and so forth, as very important human psychology I so worried about artificial intelligence and I'll, tell you why The reason relates to this famous gentlemen albert einstein we mentioned in three or four times rating enough you're familiar with an einstein called his happiest thought jordan on so called the a good duncan experiment, a thought experiment that he alone, did for the first time in the following was conjectured by the great einstein he said somebody if he was falling. If he was in an elevator in the cable broke, god forbid and the elevator start to felt fall. That person would exceed means no gravitational force. It's called the stein, equivalence principle. He call that the happiest of his life now? What does that have to

with curvature and so well, it turns out an artificial intelligence. Let me firstly tore backed artificial intelligence. Jordan. Can I ask you: how you expect a computer or an an official general intelligence could interpret these two phenomena free fall the visceral humans enter an experience of freefall a and b a happy is thought I want to ask you actually started, turn the tables on you for that gives me great comfort, because it really crying in the human melt mind a human brain. Another thing that is of the complexity and possibly forbidden. To our understanding behind an ignorance horizon like the big bang, but Jordan Does it give you any solace because to me it's a great comfort that it a mind something trapped in the wet supercomputer. If you will, on top of our shoulders operating at room temperature, how can a computer

experience a visceral sensation if possible, and how could it ever associate happiness with it? Yeah? Well, that's the question I dont know how artificial intelligence, will mimic emotions I'm afraid that my more credible, didn't we think, because I've been too carl frist in, for example, whose great neuroscientist, in one of the things pointed out. I figured out already because I had done some work that was parallel to, for instance, on the entropy management front and one of the you could you can can characterize anxiety as the neural physiological response to the unexpected emergence of entropy so the radar. It's the expansion of a single specified pathway forward its expansion of about two multiple pathways. So, for example, if you're driving down the freeway in your car breaks down, the reason you get anxious is because your car has been expanded from this

simple object that will move you from point a to b to a set of a complex, and currently unsolvable problems, and that signified by negative emotion. That anxiety is proportionate to the degree to which entropy is emerged and that's on the negative emotion front and then on the positive emotion, front, if you're moving towards value goal with ease success will move forward, you you dig. Is the end tropic distance between you and the goal, and that signal my positive emotion and its possible that systems will be able to at least model, is conceptually now that's different than feeling it qualitatively This is why we have a first reading of anxiety exactly whatever that feeling means and not seems irreducible in some sense, but I think it can be mathematically- and let me the day I system should be able to conceptualize what constitutes the basis for positive and negative emotion, even if they can't feel it feel it.

got some history too, because we don't know what the hell feel me right, yeah so getting back to it, and actually I'm glad that you brought up entropy because that reduction in phase bates phase space states is equally, when Einstein effectively did in this experiment he's saying right down to his box and that's why he had positive emotion, that's exactly right, because, exactly and in the context of the physical side, I promise them absent minded professor, but I'm not that absent minded going the curvature conjecture that you mentioned before everything hinges on curvature. Everything hinges: you'd nailed. The crux of the issue at hand curvature where I come from in einstein's conceptual general relativity. He had too great and many many great ideas, obviously, but bit special relativity has to do with the finite speed of light and things that travel near the speed of light and the properties of as such paths through space and time and then gravity is when you are general activities when you add in mass and gravity and what that the space time itself so

it turns out that there's is, the growth of effective gravity is to do is to curve and warp space time. Now we during that on earth. When we launch a say: you have a cannon as and you should have a cannonball horizontally. It eventually impact the earth's surface. That will travel in occur, parabolic arc for a little bit of time, but it Should it with enough philosophy it can actually go into orbit around the earth. That's also occur path. It has taken You called geodesic and, if so, its trade, it's actually tracking the shape of the space time that its travelling through you feel that if you're on one of those merry go round, fills kid Mary go last right, yeah you try to move your feet towards the metal. You can feel the the difficult force. You know, move us right legs as you yeah, but that's actually does anyone richer and space time. That's local, that's right, or, if you ve ever been here to see world here in san, diego or I've been on a car moving slightly faster, the maybe you should cover a bump for a moron

suspended in space time and then you come back down. It feels like that, of course, you're actually travelling and let's call the geodesic wishes in tropical minimizing, so its order producing is produced. a translational map through space time that minimizes your path length, just like If you travel from miami to london, you don't take a straight line. You take an hour geodesic path to bring it closer to the north pole than than you would ordinarily expect, but as you, sperience that that is the manifesto on earth of the mass of the earth, but member. What we trying to figure out have that mass come to be in the clump, that we call the earth and how did the galaxy that surrounds us come to be in the place while the means that there has to be some place for matter and mass to agglomerate to fall into two coalesce to eventually make the galaxy that has the sun in it and the sun to have material that orbits around it- that we call the earth those fluctuations in the background, otherwise

perfection of space time uniformity? I would say if, if, if we work breathing was completely perfect. We wouldn't be here having this converse night right there being everyone. Will. I still attribute it. Yeah yeah, that's right to be a very boring universal people, often and in science, jordan driven in my scientific colleagues, are driven by a notion of beauty. beauty, a symmetry and symmetry is a manifestation of underlining order imperfection. Well, I to them, the universe should be incredibly boring if the universe was actually driven by symmetry. It's actually the deviations from cemetery, the variations perturbations that led to all the interesting phenomena that we that we know and love right. You ve seen this action our enemies from just add that that tiny dv, that's so interesting that it's a tiny reminds me of of of of What is minimal minimalist start? You know where there's there's an art peace where everything is perfect, accept one thing that left this left disarray and there's a whole art form whole. Japanese art form its associated without, and so so

Do you believe that it was the curvature that was there at the beginning of time that was responsible for thee lack of homogeneity rather than quantum uncertainty in relationship to the location of the particles. Or that is that the same thing or other alternative theories therein, did so. The overarching framework by which curvature sp provides the primordial seeds for later matter to agglomerate too then absence, have nuclear fusion ignition and then the movie place for it, as we described our you described it before so then, Shall conditions? Have those curvature perturbations get there in the first place? Well, if they use this was smaller than an atom, even though you dont manifest these large scale perturbations today in a quantum field, be nonsense. Quantum mechanics and any discernible sense understood of an atom? If we were adam sized, then we would see quantum affects all the time we see the. put in output of virtual particles, later become things like hawking radiation, all sorts of other things, but

in the early universe. This would manifest itself as departures for perfect homogeneity by the part one hundred thousand. So let me give you an idea: bowling jordan and a bowling ball the four of the bowling. Ball is more rough, then the surface if you like, the smoothness relative to its characteristics scale, in other words, the the duration of the bowling ball servers relative to its radius. Far smoother than the eu are far rougher than the universe and was at this extremely early time. Fraction of a second before what we do, pretty is the elements that we stop spoke about before now. That's as to a bowling. Ball is pretty smooth unless it's my bowling ball, which has all these dents in it. But but but the point being, the the universe, is incredibly smart, a smooth, and so you only have to manifest tiny little perturbations. But that's what inflation does inflation says I didn't get to this before, but when the made this detection and twenty fourteen, that's is described

book losing the nobel prize. We claimed we detect these waves of gravity that causes. Scientists think we can get to the detective smoking gun it's actually the smoke from the gun. If you will the initial inflationary expansion of the universe now with inflation, concomitantly on avoided, We inextricably linked is the one of the more diverse You cannot have inflation, which means you can have these quantum perturbations that you are describing, which means that the framework, then collapses once you go forward, unless you have a multi lean into the simple benefits of proven science with alicia health. Lease is dedicated to tackling the biggest challenge in health aging.

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following a lot. So, let's let less workpeople through what inflation is first and then talk about the reality of between now and the multi versus such all. Yet explain. It explain inflation and explain why it was necessitated as a theoretical and then an experimentally, validated construct or experimentally investigated live in a quantum universe, we dont detective because we're kind of these macroscopic creatures, where we're restarted vienna couple meters characterised, scale we live here. You know tens of decades, hopefully, but but we don't let We don't observed that the nato second or pico second scale. We dont, observed things at the feminine meter size scale somewhere with its current hidden to us by an averaging process that our brain you spoken about this many times. We have a fully all kind of attention that we paid to objects and beyond which we can't really say anything other than vague notions about. So we can only focus on the folleville analogy to us is that we are for

some things that are our size, so its natural to think about that we don't see quantum tigers coming out of a vacuum and then disappearing right so our mind work and make analogies. So we now jazz the universe today as being filled with quantum field and then the articles are just instantiated of those quantum field who has a proton field over here? That's making this dust article or this air molecule? There's a photon field is the particles of light, etc. the imagine the universe, the cosmos, as you know, is filled with an infinite tapestry of potentiality. It can be A photon over here there may not be a photon. Overhear depends on the value of that quantum theory. So what So that's so interesting that idea of an infinite expanse of potential, because potentiality is a very strange. What would you call at scientific materialist concept because only what's real can be measured materially, but we need

This hypothesis of something approximating an infinite potential- and you know I don't know if you know this about, I would say my work, but it's not just my work is the entire corpus of symbolic thought, as in so far as that's been interpreted, let's say: bisect glenn Think of the recent hypothesis cosmo logical hypothesis that permeates religious speculation that the the car hosted inhabitable, so the structured material world is a manifestation of a multi. What a multiplicity of potential? That's chaos, that's the that's, the infinite chaos rate and so in genesis. For example, there is a process that to me to be akin to communicative consciousness that interacts with something proxy mating, an infinite potential. That's too taylor marked to move about whom tahoe without exactly that it and that the that the order that is good is extracted out from this. Three dimensional, that's not multi.

mention multi potential field of potential. As a consequence, of the of the action of some structuring force right in that's the that's cosmo logically generative principle. In so experience I mean that in the realm of physics itself, which people consider the queen of science sides Then there is the notion of of this expansion. Potential and you associated that with with with item fields and also with the multi verse and so so yeah. What let's watch rule of that? It's deeper than that is receiving the potentiality as something intrinsic to not only the existence of our universe, but there's a mirror universe that you, I know have been acquired Are you not familiarize with with with sir Roger parent estate the anti universe, a fact that we have anti matter and is possible to look at the work of Iraq. We talk about the direct see where there's infinite set of potential states that are filled and occupied,

or occupied and depending on their potentiality verses are actuality. When did they get instantiated. When did they get commanded into existence to use a very overburden for his right? So so this and theirs was called solid. State physics are condensed matter theory. We have Imagine you have a bunch he bore a crowd, on a regular grid and are all moving, and then one guy gets teleport by some aliens that will have to talk about some other time so that one its teleport it out. This infinite grid of people marching soldiers right and then the soldiers kind of get nervous, so they start moving to fill in that hall. So one moves to fill in the hall where the soldier has been extracted or in a rendered out of existence, and then there produces a hole in another place without other soldier was right. So there's a sea of that start to see this whole moving, but is the whole real jordan. I mean that the guy,

a real right, but now that one guy left and so they're filling in so now, there's this other thing called a hole and it's moving and there's an exact analogy between that and what's called condensed matter, physics that are phone nonce not photo the finance and how they propagate, and they have. parties they travel at some speed. So now, you're talking about the absence of something the potentiality of that which was, and it is, operating in a sea of possibilities as well. So I met this. I could see the sea of port. The sea of potentiality my students and I tried to work through the relationship between anxiety. And entropy, and we were contemplating the this the horizon of possibility, because I think that what people, what consciousness This confront a horizon of possibility. It's not something. Driven in an algorithmic deterministic manner by the states of material objects at the current time, content with the sea of problem of potentiality, but it so appears, and maybe this

The consequence of the principles of existence itself that that seal, Probability is structured in a in a normal distribution of probability. So, for example, the most probable next event in our conversation is that one or the other of us are both will utter a word but there's some non zero probability that does the categories MC earthquake in all be swallowed up by the graph right is now it's it's alternatively low probability event thank god, but not zero and it's not entirely predictable, not incendiary probability. It's more higher productivity means exam exactly exactly well in the cataclysmic events in our life occur when something we deem of relatively low probability in this set of infinite part potential actually makes itself manifest and the or unlikely that event. According to our conceptual schema, the more anxiety is associated with it, but is direct, is a sense among physicists that this infinite

of possibility you, you describe relationship to direct Iraq's thought, and I didn't know about that there's some notion that some of them states are more likely to emerge, given the current state than others, and is that a way of conception, raising some alternative to determinism. Yeah. We actually had. You know concept that you know we could turn to pry into another topic, but fine and when the titanic physicist, the of the last hundred years came up with kind of some of our histories or a path and, half integral description by which particles get from to be by taking sampling all paths which they could possibly taking a goal for me, and you directly, by going the opposite way too, and those get weighted with different or lesser probabilities to use the language that you were just saying. But I want to touch back one more year to to watch the sandman who feynman developed. That's right, that's right, and so I see when you spoke, but this anxiety own. I do you know, because I can't I can't history has upon castor myself to you.

How often do I have the chance to interview somebody like you, even though this is your your conversation, I want to continue with your questions but but do something you said- and I hope again, you'll indulge me with your forbearance. you mentioned anxiety and entropy our own asked. Right now you know how many from ways. Could I make your life twice as good, like or ten times how many ways- and I knew that I mean fears- are very like a number of ways exactly and there's there. Well, that's very good observation. That's that's part of it. Why were also waited towards waiting, negative emotion? More significantly, the number of ways things can go wrong is near infinite, whereas the number of ways things can be improved is that's, that's the straight and narrow right. That's also by the way, the boundary between order and chaos in the in the dallas actually of the world, it's a very narrow pathway, to make things better. It's not impossible

but it's very difficult. It's not to make things, but I think jordan- and I want to run this by you. Might my theory- is that you should mean into that which would devastate you. In other words, you and I both parent parents, you ve met my children. you know that you know that the greatest fears I don't even have to speak in a god forbid. But but Anyone who had brought a life into existence has organised entropy has reduced. Entropy draft has invested so much into this into this beautiful creature, miracle that we call a child. and that is one example of how your life could be made not twice as worser. Ten times worse. It could be made infinitely worse, but I two invert that and use that as a guiding principle and get your cash prussians about that, because it seems to me that we should be doing those things and making those network entered and tropic connections that, we should have as many of them that they would, if removed, would, would devastate us

in other words, you can find out what you shall not going. Ok, so one of the I would say that that's one of the most fundamental contributions of new testament thinking to old testament thinking it emerges in part. As a consequence, you could say a narrative consequence of the conundrums, that's that are put forward in the book of job, so the book of job is the narrative description. The infinite numbers of potential ways you can profoundly suffer and so job is not. Me ill in the most terrible ways and innocently ill, but he's ill anyway. That loses any simultaneously loses his wife and his family, and then his friends make fun of them for being ill and and accused of being sinful, thus the reason for his illness and so he's at the bottom of the deepest possible pit, and he has he contend with god, as a consequence in some ways, attempting to where you going

with the divine to understand why it is that he's been condemned, suffering now it turns out not to god, made a bet with satan of all things that, if Satan torture, job that or jewel that lastly, job that job would lose his faith rights. It's very three story, but but Carl young wrote a great book called answer to job that takes that apart great detail. But what happens next? this story is a strange inversion of the story of job, because the hypothesis in the christian story is essentially that the best way through the alps catastrophe of life is to voluntarily take on the deepest. possible set of catastrophes as if they are in encouraging challenge it. Something like that. You'd think about that metaphysically as the invitation to the cross, and so the notion is analogous to the notion that you're describing, which is the best way to inoculate yourself against

asked if to confronted voluntarily, the same idea, by the way as the notion that the law Your dragons hoard, more gold and the dragon gold stories are very, very old story. The notion there is that the best what you can find that would matter Most itself is the best in your life is likely to be found, as young said, in stir, cleanness invent, inter, which meant that which you we need- will be too far be found where you least want look grave my cave that you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek other guy campbells exactly well. You know in your lie on one of the things you pointed out, and we will talk about this. Maybe in ITALY, where interview you know, you had to deal with the loss of your father and which was a very dark thing to lose very dark thing to contemplate You know you said that one of the things you did as a consequence of contemplating that relatively forthrightly was develop, a certain kind of radically ambition.

in terms of enthusiasm, because you are interested in, but also in terms of the magnitude of the problem that you are sending out to challenge and so use continuously solved the psychological and metaphysical problem by delving into the structure of the real at that, ways than look darkest and most mysterious to you, and I think that is it's something everyone should know I'd be lit to my audiences as they go around the world more recently talking about how destiny makes itself manifest to people in it does that by inviting you with opportunities that sees your imagination, but also does it by calling to use certain problems that beset you. That happened to be your problems whatever. That means in because it's not me It's not like you're obsessed by an infinite number of problems. Europe by that set of problems. That happened for whatever reason to be your problems, and you might say well, I wish I didn't have any problems. then you don't have any mystery the river

that would be to say. Well, I'm gonna take the worst problem that be sets me and delve into that most assiduously, and I think but it is quite clear on the political front, it that's how you find the great adventure of your life think that's a universal truth by the way, I think does- and I see this with scientists. You know whether the issue You know that most people, don't really recognize that science is done by scientists. You know we're not walking autonomy. On that day, to have no feeling and have nothing invested in it and that's I think it was sort of like almost like a coming out of feeling I'll, be not familiar with it, but but liberation, when you recognize your own particular dragon, if you're willing to solve it, look I mean you mentioned the mystery and what perplexes you saw. Your car breaks down in the analogy used before it causes you anxiety, but you know exactly what you have to do. If you don't get a jack and you have to put a tyrant and you have to get on your way and hopefully will be there on time but but but

no, what the path is and is not that mysterious I've been thinking about scientists were, were confronted with an infinite. A spectrum of history is on a daily basis and in the rabbi then sacks out enough. You ever met her knees, the one one other guests if you guess that I never got to have on my podcast by jack johnson sections of the chief rabbi of of the united kingdom of the commonwealth and he his kind of brilliant. Take you wrote a book called the grand partnership about conciliation and cut committee between religion and science, and one thinks he speculate on. Was you know? Why is it that scientists are the least religious actually happen to think that scientists are incredibly religions and years more, and so we shall talk more about that, because I'd like to know why you think that yeah we'll get before we part here yeah. Let's do that so you're, not thinking about scientists. We are confronted with mysteries on on this daily basis, but get after the and the ultimate mystery,

Why are we here? Y Y, you know, scientists aren't used to answering why questions and it's almost like it's beyond our domain. But we don't like that. Jordan right with scientist, I think I think you can correct me again if I'm wrong in any way, but I think there's a narcissistic trail behind scientists. That's a good thing. You know We have this concept in judaism, a yates or horror, or an evil inclination and a yates, or how to have a good inclination, but like the union, there is a little bit of each and each one, in other words your evil inclination, your ear, your ear design. For glory in the nobel prize and as they can actually cause you two trends mute that into gold and do things that are good for you and an an unlikely that the positive qualities you want. Everybody to know to do two things right way or whatever. That means you want everyone to get a vaccine or you can think you're doing good and can actually not be good right. So so the point that I'm trying to make is, if you, if you channel the propeller, the other scientists to

solved. Cystic leonardo, cystic lee, if you, if you do Do it and I dont know how to do it with my students right, I'm also than the what questions, but I dont get to teach them the? Why costa, ok, a couple of things here will go back to the scientists are more just. Then they presuming are they part because they believe in the in the presumption of redemptive, they believe there is. A law goes in the world, an order that can be discovered through rational apprehension and experimentation. Empirical experimentation, they also believed that the truth was set, you free, because otherwise you would do science and now it's the way and that are used when I was trying to train my graduate students to be ethical researchers, so now, as you said, assigned someone who does science is a person, a scientists and so a person above all, and then a scientist, and the consequence of that is that that person has to be turned with such monday. Realities is formulating a career, and that is

only self promotion, because there's no bloody point in discovering something, unless you communicate it to people. Unless you have a network that you ve developed, you can't communicated and so is part and parcel of the scientific endeavour. But then you might ask yourself what should be paramount right. The promotion your career in the communication of your findings, in which case you get false research findings, all the time or the truth and part. the answer to that is, you know if you're not assiduous, in your pursuit of the truth? Then you can So if I have a student who does our masters repeats deep red piece of research, may p hark, so they claim that they fall valid results when they didn't, because they mark about micro level. With this reputation well, then, as they swallow that lie there you convince themselves that what they discovered was actually true and then convince other people and then there's gonna be a whole set of them, never going down entirely pathological and false road

and so part of the reason that, even if you are interested in promoting new career, which you should be to some degree, the reason you should abide by the truth is because you have to ask yourself whether not you want to spend entire life in to getting something that doesn't exist merely to inflate your status among your peers and with anyone sensible, because you could have, cake and eat it too. You know you could look where you're wrong, is a scientist and find the interesting stumbling blocks and the interesting mysteries you could die. into that. Then you can, discover something real and You could have status among your peers and be claimed as someone who had a genuine contribution and build a communication network, and that's a way. plan than being that. What would you say that falling prey to falsehood in and warping, the entire field? That's all ethical. that's all an issue of fundamental ethics and which we never teach the arson and losses we never answer to ourselves I didn't. I released this area in a physical science. Is I mean my oh, my law school can't mathematics.

Colleagues, even my business school cause. I knew I don't know about you join, but I was never talk to teach right. So this my drawing this is- and I think for you too, I think you know tombstone may be at age. One hundred and twenty jordan I think it will save you. No father husband, teacher some order like that, because because I think the essence of who you are ill gama pilot too. I find little tiny planes and southern California little cessnas around when I became a pilot, the change. Why was I started a thing but the world, not only in our physicist or fire, whatever I'm a pilot and its approach, a core identification, that way. As professor and I know that you felt that way as professor, even if you're not teaching in on a daily basis in and we can get into your the travails awful way that you ve been brutally in a kind of about my monsters in your own right, their time, but but I just want to point- out that we never get taught how to teach. We never get taught at least The physical science is maybe- and we almost get get these

ethical can under that you just mentioned. We get there barest minimum of kind of ethical training in a in a in a one page sheet that you sign in you maybe watch a two minute, video that some at a consulting firm was eighty thousand dollars to me, but that this the point is that you do have the tendency in this is up in part, when my first book losing the nobel prize about its about why discover something: that's I've only viscerally connected to you, career and making a living for yourself in your family, which, as you said, is by no means a may at trivial thing. I mean where human beings we have the support and theirs and there's a lot to be said about good, honest work and the work that colleagues and I are engaged in. But we were confronted with the discovery of a lifetime, and now not only mean, as I said before, that we had discovered you know gravitational waves, which had never been observed in this fashion and in two thousand and fourteen when we made this announcement at harvard You know that we had discovered the aftershocks

the inflationary epoch, but that we are discovered evidence for the multiverse and and yet what get undone by the humble meagre, make substance in the whole world which, in the universe, which is called dust, I thought it was so ironic, but it's a teachable thing. We succumb to what fine in the great fine and that we mention before he said the first principle is that you should not fool yourself and the second. Nepal is that you are the easiest person to fool and that bees except what's called confirmation, bias the pi hacking, and so that's downstream. As you said, the pr in the replication crisis in your field and by the way it's starting to become a crisis in my field, things like what mon shepherd chores most most discoveries aren't real if, if scientists are going to spend five percent a year in real fact, and so ninety five percent of was tripe, we were

real progress on the five percent knowledge incremental year. That's it that's her away the fifth, and so I wanna okay. So what opened on the dust front, and then I want to tell you a little story from exodus and then we should get up this section. So what happened on the dust front, so front. We were so consumed with this notion out and I want to speak mostly for me, although I know that it did afflict colleagues involved with this, for me, and before it represents the greatest idle, the talisman of all not just of society and not just of science. Jordan, you have to imagine when people run to be president of the united states, they always whoever is running on the democratic side, gets a letter from seventy nobel prize winners. The. about. Why the Democrats should be president when their results, the covert vaccines are sorry that the game

function. Research was being sponsored by the eco health alliance by peter dash egg and voucher. Seventy nobel prize winners, wrote to present in tromp to say, does is wrong. You should cancel the gain, a function, research and the people as in other words, novel, carries weight punches way above its way class. It doesn't just effect egghead boffins in the laboratory. It does and it does affect my fund improbability and how many people we can hire in a given field and what the direction of the field may be that percolates to the front page of the new york times as well. So it's the most you know and the highest example of an idol, and I always look back you know when when, we talk about exodus, maybe we'll talk about it, the sin of the golden calf, which is a very natural thing. But when you, actually see Jordan, that that scientists will give their I teach and they will literally bow down to the king of sweden, and accept

killed in grave and image. I mean the the backing of the of the symbolism could not be more more perfect if you wrote it in a hollywood script, but it comes directly out of exodus and in our case, in my case, this idle than a hive worship, set. So much of my being my my My psychology towards that it could be undone what it came to it. Worried me, but it didn't didn't cause me to pull the plug and to not go forward. Are say over my dead body or we're gonna publishers and what ended up happening. we saw the pattern of polarization called curling polarization this world these eddies that you spoke about earlier and that be spent of the inflationary origin of the universe, because if the universe were filled with a quantum field, at its earliest moments, and perhaps in perpetuity visa. They d was called the influence on. This would then be the field

in which reverberations could take place. Those reverberations are the curvature perturbations that you asked about a while ago, those providing nuclear nations sites for mattered to collapse, condense agglomerate, into which then ignited the stars which then made they supernova, which then made us so story is an incredible story. It hinges on inflation, be incorrect clayton hinges upon a quantum field called the info tom in full time hinges upon a super arching structure called the multiverse for it to be filling another inflation didn't happen once shorten it didn't happen twice. It happened an infinite number of times, and is happening right now unavoidable tick because it cannot be sort of superseded. It cannot be shut off and yet and yet, We live in a galaxy, aghast, is a very, very dirty place. It's a place filled with. Asteroids and subatomic particles in charge particles and is filled with

Most humble substance- that's left over and thank god thank bloody god, as you might say that it does exist because we are, as Carl Sagan called the earth a mode of dust, riding on a sunday. In other words, the earth is a giant block of dust. The the iron, in the hemoglobin molecule that powers, your body right now, came from that supernova that produce the dust that cured and mimicked with perfect fidelity the signal that I was hell bent, my colleagues were hell bent on detecting it mimic the hurl mode polarization signal to a t. And we saw what we wanted to see. An First of all, it meant that we had seen the multiverse people on the front pages of every headline every newspaper from san diego to new york to cnn. We have detected the first, nickel evidence for the multiverse cohesion,

What we threw them, because I still I dont care and understand it. So you you talked about the fact that the initial quantum perturbations that existed prior to the to our ability to detect the back radiation. Were we're consequences gravitational waves and talk a little bit about the fact that those perturbations could be mimicked by the bye cosmic dusty purchase asian induced polarizing, to be mimic by cosmic does so was the polarization. You detected a consequence of the quantum fluctuation or was it a secondary consequence of the of polarized by this by this by this widely dispersed dust, so came to visit santiago. I gave you some chunks of rock they look ordinary chunks, iraq, but there actually meteorites, and actually I give them away in my website for free. You know I I these giveaways, where people can get it's a meteorite, its act

what you see is a meteor shower when some of the material in a meteor shower reaches the earth's surface is called a meteor right maybe you're right. That I gave you and I give away on occasion to people go to my website- is a think of iron and its eyes. its cobalt, its nickel. I also I will send people the the chemical assets of it as well because it's your so called to see that this chunk of of rock is four point. Three billion years old. It may predates the earth formation and it shares a lot in common with the earth. One thing it shares in common with the earth is that has a magnetic susceptibility if you that little meteorite that I gave you and you put it next to a refrigerator, magnet it'll suck onto that, like a like a parasite, sucking on a on a on a break Ok, that that such is due to the magnetic properties of iron, which is a fairer magnet and that will attached to a magnetic field. Just like the earth does those magnetic field are not confined to the earth. Jordan's galaxy has a magnetic field, the

Universe at as well as a whole may have a magnetic field. But what happened was there's these pop? because of meteorites in our local region of the milky way galaxy through which we are always looking like a dirty window like looking through a dirty window, unavoidable we live in a galaxy, so we thought we'd have outside the galaxy just which is technologically and almost theoretically impossible and go outside and away from this dust. So we're stuck inside this dusty cloud, this dusty region again, thank god for it, because without it there wouldn't be blood and our veins and there wouldn't be a planet for us to sit on, so it it it's a camera, it it it gives and it takes away. In this case it took away the nobel prize because the magnetic field of our galaxy can cause the same. Twisting curling eddies of the emission from these meteorites or these dust particles as well, and that provide did the chimerical illusion that we had seen exactly fidelity to the origin. If the universe began with inflation, the exam,

same pattern. It's almost devilish, it's almost say tanning, because in exactly mimic too, of course we knew about it. We weren't in a babe babes in there was, would it make a blunder innovating put our thumb in the front of the lens capper, but did our job a week. We set believe de waited that probability. We assess it set up. It's not like, as likely as the explanation that we found, of course, that the opposite is true right to say that the universe began out of us spawned nuclear nations site within the multiverse, preventing but your sites for examinations, and that's a much while the story to believe in retrospect, and we the detective from our galaxy, but they do I want to condemn I myself to watch too harshly, or my colleagues too, because we immediately tried not only to falsify that hypothesis. We work with. our team, which was our competitor, which a billion dollars, satellite called the plank sunlight.

we had been hot on the trail, the exact same signals that science is very competitive. You know you mentioned all these different traits of science. Scientist all the time yeah, I always say scientists are like children right, we're we're curious or playful, where when's the call but like children, we don't like to play with others. Where, were you know we're jealous we're petty? We have all the good qualities of of children, but we have a double edged sword. We have some of the name of some of those are the desire for credit and for application for attention. I'm speaking for me specifically here, but this is common affliction, especially when the stakes are as high as they are to say that we live in a multiverse, which is the direct conclusion of this discovery if it had held up, which it did not so results were registered. What's this step, this of the quantum fluctuations old agglomeration theory. Now you didn't provide evidence that it was the case right is

still the extent theory in relation. Yes, the initial agglomeration of matter it, and if it is an idea that theory you doesn't mean, I guess your claim to have provided evidence or exactly we made the most precise detection ever of this. of signal it. Just the interpretation was wrong. We did make a blunder, we didn't say there's faster than light neutrinos. We made an exquisitely, precise measurement of dust in our gallon. Which is useful by the way, because what we see will never see a unit one, as I said, until we get out of the galaxy, which won't even happened. You know with with, trillions of dollars, a funding, its physically impossible, so until we're always can be measuring a combined signal, a petition cosmic signal. Pleasant, actual does signal so now with other experiments, including the experiment that I led with my colleagues at the unit pennsylvania at princeton at berkeley and Chicago called the simons observatory funded by Jim simons at the simons foundation, maryland simons in that

project is a hundred and ten million dollar project in the atacama desert of northern chile, which has as one of its too as one of its pieces of apparatus, Jordan has a dust detection expire. So the only way to get rid of a systematic experiment, a systematic contaminant is to dedicate and a whole new experiment. To imagine you ve got your thumb on the scale and your pouring your coffee beans and you're gonna too few coffee, I do another experiment and distribute just. I saw my thumbs and is good for us. We have to do a separate experiment. We have to dedicate some of our really exquisitely produce detectors. My colleague, suzanne stags at princeton makes these no one's ever made anything like what she's been able to do with her group and they detect that the the faint possible microwave signals from the big bang, but they can also detect dust. So dedicated you role not be forward now exist

actually, so she has channels during that only measure dust which, if you had told me twenty five years ago, you're going to be measuring dust I'd say I thought I was interested in the biggest questions and if I want to study dust, I can follow my my my teenager around right yeah. I don't. I don't need like a to build. One hundred million dollar know we the combined total signal was attracted does signal. What will be left is the cosmic signal and we hope to have first light or first migrants. that instrument in the coming next year, oh well, can grow patients are not so let me closeness with his ex into story, because I think its relevant to while the metaphysical speculations we ve been indulging in, but also, I think it's fine graphically relevant. So when moses, before Moses emerges as a as a leader of his people,. He encounters the burning bush and that's a very interesting story because What happens is Moses is basically out for a strong and something attracts his attention. Now it's not a burning oak tree, it's not a volcano. It's something that flight

there is in glimmers on the edge of his perception, you might say and attracts so detractors, reality, and he decides that he's going to investigate that which attracts is curious. Now the burning bushes and paradoxical manifestation, because its being- and that would be the boy sure the tree, the small tree- that's alive, that's being but is also becoming because fires of transformation, and so the burning, which is a symbol of the paradox of existence, which is that things are and are become, at the same time and so this is attracted by this, and he decides to investigate it, to inquire into its nature and Consequence of his inquiry into its nature is that the voice of being itself speaks to him right and that's Physically, how god announces himself, he says I am that I am, or I am, that I will be, or I was that I am now it's it's a statement of the of being in the idea behind that story. Is that if you assiduously

pursue that which attracts attention. The voice of being itself will speak, the ultimate truth to you and that's a hell of a thing. I understand, and so when you're trying to Each year, students, ethics, you can say, look You can subjugate this, sir. for truth to your venal ambition, but the cost will be that if the voice of god beckons to you from the unknown you'll miss it. And if you think about that for like thirty's and you have any wisdom at all. There isn't a chance in hell that, if you are the least bit why's that you would but the exigencies of your ambition, even if their nobel prize oriented, above the possibility that the structure of reality itself could reveal itself to you as a consequence of you having the delightful opportunity to pursue what most, what effectively attraction the reason the better deal, the knot and scientists you're, a real scientists are imbued by that desire and they believe the two, because they do

If that is the investigate. Something no matter trivial dust, let's say no matter how contemptible that, consequence of that will be that they will be able to appear into the furthest. Expanses of of what would you say that sacred fundamental realities of existence itself and all of them seems to be true. So that's it the ethical lesson for students to know about it. He had to be open to what your eyes can see right. The the guitar speaks being able to hear the smaller. The catechism of the jurors faith is here. not see don't follow up what your heart leads. a stray and actually says duprat to prostitute, prostitute yourself. After what your heart wants, no here here is a passive, but you can be the ties to, and I absolutely appreciate that Jordan. I appreciate, while that's also a matter of a rather than thinking and imposing your desire onto the phenomenon, which is what you said attempted by new described lie is that you have to, The phenomena speak for itself and finance

by the way mean shine forth. That's the original there vision of the term. Phenomenon is something that shines forth right and it does in fact attract your attention and if you pay enough attention will you be rewarded for what you pay and you'll be rewarded by a glimpse into the structure of things, and that can help you and saw yourself to the catastrophe of existence itself right by. bring into that underlying structure and to feel as a car. Once in some manner, in harmonious relationship to the cosmos itself, and there isn't a better price. The not there is that's right for everyone watching and listening. That was brief, walk through the entire structure of cosmological. Already at a relatively low resolution, but in the very interesting manner, and so thank you for taking is on us through, ninety minute, long, thirteen point eight billion year trip much appreciated

you taken the time to talk to me today in towns. Are all my questions and to everyone whose watching it lessening your time and attention is always a priest It is not taken for granted and to the daily, where plus people for making this conversation possible for facilitating it, that's also much created. They bring that about you. of you who are listening on you to buy. Now it's all current the daily wired that's big deal on their part, a real public service. As far as I'm concerned and tuna, crew here in where the hell am I Oh yes, I'm in miami abbe army in florida and so on and doing this part asked I'm going to continue to speak too dark keating for Thirty minutes on the daily work plus platform about some of the autobiographical issues that we described and if you guys interested in pursuing this conference further and more psychological direction, then jump over two daily, where applause and if you don't have a sum script consider supporting them and are in any case. Thank you. Very much

getting it was wonderful talking to you and to everybody who is listening and watching shower the sea again, Hello, everyone. I would encourage you to continue listening to my conversation with my guest on daily wire plus dot com.