The. Hello, everyone, I'm here today with author and journalists. Helen, Joyce her first book trends When any ology meets reality was times of london best seller in twenty twenty one. She is a long time. Staff turn was that the ec chemist where she has held various senior positions, including Britain, editor international, editor and finance editor. She is currently on. Leave of absence from the economist to work with sex matters, a new human rights organization campaigning for sex based right,

Thank you very much for agreeing to speak with me Helen. I been reading your book over the last couple of days and found it. What would you call it, unfortunately compelling that might be the right term and this issue of the trend, actual rights and and all of the fear and upheaval around them, seem in some odd way, key to the malaise that is central to our times and so people Ask me like a vast you, why I've bothered with it at all, since its hypothetically doesn't affect me personally, but maybe we start with that, because at the beginning of your work, you pointed out that. Well writing this wasn't exactly for your reputation. Let's say, certainly expire, due to the mad affection of the mob, let's say and but on the other hand, as we, in your biography, you are a journalist after all, so maybe we start with your your thoughts on why this,

was necessary and andor. Timely will, first of all thank you for having me on its really kind of you to talk to me about this, and I think unfortunately, compelling is perhaps the best too description of my book, I've heard yet I'm sorry, I write it in a journalist now for approaching twenty years, and I think a journalist short description would be somebody who runs towards the burning building rather than away from it so when you see something, that's crazy, compelling moving story, big news, you didn't, say: he's gonna be trouble. This going to be difficult to write about, she should go, who tell me more on them, start to interview people and you get reactions of the sort that you ve never had before, and you know fearlessness listeners them. I've been a foreign correspondent. I've worked in Brazil, I've I've written about peter failure, I've written about the effects of pornography on teenagers brains. I've interviewed murderers. I've interviewed president's annette. Before. Have I had the reaction that I had for this.

Yeah. Well, that's also. Why thought that? Well, that's why I thought that opening with that background was so relevant because you have this immense experience as a journalist and you ve covered all sorts of controversial issues, and yet you haven't been exposed to the kind of vitriol that this book attracted, and so I guess, there's two questions about That one is why in the world, would this be such a heart, but an issue but but also a hot, but by an issue associated with that kind of lobbying in vitriol and what technological trend permission say social media related. Do you think might be also contributing to the fact that someone like you can base targeted so effectively for communicating for community? now year to really good questions. I think one of the reasons that the vitriolic so intense on this subject, is that it's so linguistic. You know when say that men can become women by saying that they women or vice versa, you're, making it

and about language not about reality? And the postman, the postmodernism turn is precisely that turn in which the language its precedence over the bedrock material. If it's not so things, And so when somebody like me insists on talking about the reality that they say and refuses to use, the words that are mandated were destroying the reality that people are trying to create they see the reality that they're trying to create, as some that is socially just that they're trying to bring around bring about new jerusalem, some is doing a very bad thing and should be silenced by any means necessary, including by lying about me or you know, threatening, may or to get me out of my job and so on, and then you're sick question was about social media. So why? Why now? I think that lots of reasons. This is a perfect storm thing, but we witnessing a social contagion and that social contagion is carrying what I increasingly think of as an need a new religion and their religion and

wouldn't be able to spread without social media and not because social media is now in everybody's pockets, but because the specifics about social media in particular, the sense Yep role that silicon valley firms take upon themselves. So I can't speak. using the words that I regard as natural. If I do I'll just lose, my twitter account can't straight away. I have to think about everything no about such things. Yes, I know you wouldn't well you very careful you have to use their language, because that's the language now of silicon valley and so it is very hard to say what I want to say using their language Ok, so now you dived into the deepest part of this right off the bat. So I think we'll go we'll talk about the idea that this is linguistic battle and then will turn back to the technological front, so one of the things that I've been trying to think through, as I say,

We will go down right down to the weeds in this. To begin with is the what seems to me to be the post, modern, anti enlighten meant and anti judeo christian insistence that his demolishing, which is the model of reality. Let's say that we use to guide ourselves trumps ontology, which is reality itself, and so the post modernists insisted that the meaning of words could only be a duty gated in relationship to other works, and so they thought of the whole linguistic corpus is something like a massive dictionary where every word only or meaning in relationship to other words- and we really did it. Tat attempt to deny or downplay the idea that it was an external transcendent reality, domestic or objective that could serve as a corrective to these epistemological propositions and I think that was driven,

part by the underlying marxist, insistence that lead a power rules, everything, but also that human beings are infinitely malleable and because of that, can be moulded and should be more than in the view of whoever happens to whole day. Utopian rains, let's say and all of that tangled together and you are call this a neo, religion and so so I'm bringing up all these additional factors, because I think they play into this. religious become a religious battle essentially, and we should also talk about why you and I have both of which both consumer concluded, apparently that this, best construed as a religious battle. Yeah I mean We with every word that you say, and in particular I would say that the reason that this battle is being forced on women's bodies, particularly if you want to say that sex, real and what people say about themselves is real. It like fire,

really that's symmetric. That should affect everybody, but actually it affects win because women's bodies are more exigence than men's. So, where Once you carry the baby's basically and think that means that a large share of all women hit the bedrock policy of this is how we make new human beings it's easier for men to ignore that fact easier for men to think of themselves as a a ghost in a machine or is it it'll, have been keyless being carried around by a meat puppet some as someone who could become immortal as someone who could you know, cut the flesh, bones, or that you know we could doing wound transplants. All these things like, if you have had that experience of grubbing, another human being and then having to get us out of you, you're, just a much less, and you much less amenable, shall we say to these sorts of illusions, and so here and bring in Britain one of the major sites of resistance to all of this is mums nets, which has

reputation is being a site. Where you talk about, you know what are the best diapers to buy, or what's the best formula or in it is my hope being a jerk or whatever. But actually it's also where women talk about this movement to turn the word woman into something that just means a feeling of feeling that can be in a man's head. Ok, so so a couple of ideas about that three of them. I guess three ideas. The first is that my understanding of the other political literature in relationship to initiation rituals in an acronym stick tribal communities. Let's say or or primordial, tribal communities is that the initiation rituals for men are more severe generally than those for women and the one of the hypotheses about is that where women run smack into biological reality, not least in the form of menstruation, but then just but then definitely in the form of pregnancy and childbirth.

And so they get initiated into the actual, the of ontology, the bedrock reality by nature, whereas that has to be done culturally with men and so and then Next thing is you. You said that women have to contend with biological reality in a way that men don't because of that, and that might might be true especially once a woman has been pregnant, had a child which tends to grow people up in a very radical way, but it is also markedly the case that the people affected by this gender, This formula epidemic have, be young women and not the young boys, and so that something that we could talk about and well maybe we'll justly we'll just leave it at that for the time being, oh yeah, sorry that the lasting was you said that It's the reality of feminine existence. It seems too,

the place where this religious battleground is taking place, and then you tied the notion of reality to the necessity of reproduction and that's actually a really good definition of what constitutes reality and that that is relevant to some of them. facts that you laid out in your book. So, for example, one of the facts is these: are biological and evolutionary that sex emerged. One point two billion years ago, and so that's an awful long time ago, it's way before trees. Its way, for many of the things that we regard as fundamental cardinal elements of reality: the brain evolved five hundred mere million years ago and the cerebrum two hundred million years ago, and what this means is that by the time, we developed central nervous system and were able to conceptualize at all, cognitive lee speaking set had been a biological reality for several hundred

billion years and one of the things that bothered me about the compelled speech legislation in Canada that mandated that pay or use the pronouns of other people's choice was that I thought two things I thought number one That was an assault on what might be the most fundamental perceptual category in the human, cognitive lexicon and perceptual unit that are are the entire way we we invite in reality has a sex oriented You're lying symbolic structure and one of the consequences of india using this mandated primacy of subjective identity would be the destruction of our ability to communicate, and all

so the dissemination of a tremendous amount of confusion among impressionable young people. So I figured when the pronoun laws first came to existence that we would produce a psychogenic epidemic, which is exactly what what happened and that it would be particularly affect young women, because that's where psychogenic epidemics tend to originate. If you look at this thorkel data and that confusion, psychogenic epidemic and e mail inability to communicate has stemmed precisely from this deep philosophical or even, I would say in some sense, even see alone. or move now. Does any of that seem to you to be stating that case too seriously. No not at all. I would completely agree with evident that you set their swords. about the m, the psychic epidemic, that's playing ice in teenage girls,

We do see psychic epidemics in teenage girls first or worst. They are the people who become anorexic iraq. The people who sell farm there, the people here, when, through these hysterical laughing episodes and so on, if you could have looked back historically speaking I dont think anyone knows exactly why, but its of and observable fact, at this point also. I know why you know. I tell you why I know some of why well look when boys and girls are given personality tests before they hit puberty. There's not a lot of different in average level of negative emotion experienced, but as soon as girls hit puberty their proclivity to experience negative emotion so shame and guilt and disappointment and fear and depression, is elevated markedly, in contrast to man and its permanent

we transformed puberty and it stays stable for the rest of women's lives, and so women reliably experience more negative emotion than men on average. Now there's wide individual France and there's some men who experienced more negative emotion than women, but we're talking about, and what that means, at least in part, is that the people, almost all the people who experience the highest levels of negative emotion and that would include self consciousness and shame, are female and that kicks, puberty outside interests, tat pew. Well, I puberty two kids have to re straw. Sure their identities in quite a major way, and that's especially true for girls, because they have first of all, to them earlier right, so there less mature win, nature comes calling, let's say, processes His puberty kicks in. They have these elevated levels of negative emotion and one

things we know this is so interesting as far as I'm concerned. Is that, if terms that are reminiscent of self consciousness load almost perfectly onto negative emotion so there's almost no difference whatsoever between being self conscious and in and experiencing and shame and anxiety, and so, if you add there, dress of puberty and that physical transformation to the emotional transformation, and then you taken stream, the extreme outliers honour, negative emotion, continue It's all women and saw young women, and we know well from the literature on gender. Just for you that the individuals who experience gender dysphoria. First of all, we have suicide, sightly, deviation or those sorts of symptoms any more highly than people who experience now. On gender just for your psychiatric disorders, so it's a class of general psychiatric disorders and if their ex associated with negative emotion, that's gonna, mostly effect young.

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If you were an intelligence and so forth, but they also evaluate them on the basis of I the social status or perceived capability to gain productive social status kay men do not evaluate women for that, but they do evaluate them on the basis of their physical appearance and they look for signs of the kind of police, and so women are judged more harshly by each other by man, and by biology itself, let's say on the basis of their physical appearance, and so they have reason to be more self conscious and the reason their name experience more negative emotion. As far as I can tell it puberty, I think, there's three factors that contribute to. That is why is. You get physical, dimorphism really emerging puberty, because boys get to be bigger than girls, and so that means, if girls engage in physical, combat with males there more likely to be hurt and her badly, and so they should be more afraid in those encounters and they are in

Women are also more sexually vulnerable than men because they bear the burden of of pregnancy and childbirth, and then also when this is worth thinking about. As far as I can tell you is that no reason to assume that women's Nervous systems are adapted to make women comfortable. They might be adapted to make women hypersensitive to the sensitivity. The infants and that'll make women more tuned to invite the dangers and the cost of that is that women suffer more emotionally. So you could, you can imagine, the female nervous system might be optimally tuned for the mother, infant dyad and not for the mother

self, and so and then, if you add to that, the fact that all of those factors tend to make women experience more negative emotion than men and then that girls run into that young when they hit puberty, then their casting about for an explanation for that misery. And if that's provided for them to them by the context, then they can be system the ball to emotional contagion, any and and social contagion. Anything that's associated with explanation for this. negative emotion or any way out of it. Like anorexia, like cutting like body, dysmorphia, they're going to be more susceptible to that, sociological to those sociological fads. Had all science incredibly familiar yeah yeah yeah and they and they jumped onto whatever, whatever is offered to them I would say about the trans. Social contagion, in particular, is its old as a one hundred percent immediate solution, but no

details and anorexic girl that we can just switch the anorexia off, but they do say two kids, if you, if your generous work, if you transition magically, will be better and that all your problems will be solved because your problem, stem from not understanding that your actually really a boy and one other. I would add by the interested to hear if this resonates with you. So that feminists limit it really for decades, is the way that, unlike men, there is not very much age solidarity among women. So you're a young man may look as a middle aged man or even an older man and say that's what I'd like to be like Where is younger women, I've nations this really personally tend to it always. Does eyes at women pass them wars and I think a lot of what they are saying is that they don't want to become that person. Women don't want, become their mothers

yeah. Well, that's that that's pretty awful, isn't it, and while I would say there there's a couple of reasons for that I mean my wife has started. A podcast series where she's interviewing older women who've had sex as for careers and families to have them lay out the course of their career and be rigorously truth, all about it. I think part of the reason that there's two reasons- maybe the young man might have that attitude towards older women and one is, I think, that younger women, are lied to almost all the time. and their lied to partly by older women. I'm not going to put this on older women because it's complicated but you know younger women are told in no uncertain terms that the only important thing for them and what will be vital to their the entity and what should be vital to their identity if their decent and honourable and ambitious young women is their career and that

simply not true for most women and its also, not true for most men by the way. It's definitely true for a subset of men, but for most women, the optimal life- and I think most women discover this in their thirties- is a well balanced. Aggregation of family, marriage and and I'll tell you every time I've made that comment. People have clipped out say three minutes of me. Talking about that idea. I get the most vitriol comments that I've ever got when I've ever discussed. Anything and all of them come from young women and there's so vicious that it's beyond its actually beyond belief, and so that's an echo of white and Well then, the other thing is our entire culture has turned viciously against motherhood in oh, we We presume that if you're a moral agent then shouldn't bring any more rapacious human beings? To

expand the cancerous growth of humanity onto the planet and that if you a woman who wants to be a mother, then you're a say rate citizen, because you ve subordinated your proper desire to have a career in the patriarchal world to this anachronistic birth machine mechanism that you don't want to be destined to, and all of that is pathological beyond comprehension. But it's also this situation. We happen to be in right now and I think we d value age and in particular we differ devalue agent, women like women, You know women once their past. The monopolies are no longer seen as valuable because they no longer beautiful and their longer potentially fertile, and I see the contradiction between that and what you're saying, but I think both are true and so women don't like this or that they're going to turn to older women. I mean I remember I was a young woman once I think too. You know that, to the degree that we devalue family and continuity between generations that also Lee

the vital role of older women somewhat up in the air, because one of the major roles that older women can. play is that is as wise guides to younger women, making their way through the complexities of career and family, and also to play out the role of support grandparent tend to be their within that family context, and if we devalue family, then we reduce people to their career and their individual attractiveness and then, if attractiveness on sexual front is waning, that reduces to career and if the career isn't stellar, then what the remaining signifier value. An answer is well very little. That's a pretty dismal prospects

Anybody who anybody, whose female, whose moving through the world so yeah, and you don't like to look forward and see that that's what's coming for you. So that's quite that makes it quite important not to listen to what I ll do. Women say in it a parity, Somebody, like me, says about say charles safeguarding, like two moccasined to safe was like oh wait, someone think of the children well, yes I do right in the trade and thanks hint boy In other words, on the most important things I do is think the children, but that seems mock worthy to a lot of young people, and particularly strangely too, will not be under women. Where are you you know other thing that seems to happen. I would say to is that The social media networks are set up so that casual, derogatory, derisive narcissistic marking is not only allowed, but staggeringly prevalent hunting area not at all

that's it! That's it added tat! It attracts attention and his courage. Now you know we have to talk during our conversation today about the role of narcissism play. in all of the experience of my being derived avoid online comments and the transsexual phenomenon itself, as well as this claim that subjective claims to identity trumpet. thing, because there is no more signally narcissistic claim than that. I am who I say I am, and no one else has a say: it's like will really in a marriage, let's say You're, just tell you say you are you dont have to negotiate your identity with your wife, her husband, you never do that with your children. You never do that with your friends. They go along with whatever game you wanna play every bloody second of your life. Do they and if they don't that makes them evil, predators and and valid tar four derision derision and marking and worse than that, because, as you know, quickly. Well, this online more being behaviour driven by thoughtless narcissists nodded

is psychologically stabilizing because of its vitriolic quality, but also can certainly reaches tendrils into the confines of your job. Let's say in it I speak impossible for me to work as a psychotherapist. I had to leave my job at the university because I'd be became impossible to be for me to find in both those domains and so say: this narcissism is also encouraged by its encouraged by educational institutions, because take young people in and they say, while you know, you're immature messianic desire to save the world, which could be admirable if channel properly should manifest itself in this there haven't activism. they put you in position of ultimate moral authority over you're, seniors, let's say instantly, and that's what you should be doing and anyone who opposes that is

evil and and predatory at best and as a consequence, no punishment two extreme and alongside that, that you must choose your identity of a list of dozens and sometimes hundreds like the require the most in hence coms, discrimination, and so examination I mean I was talking. Somebody just yesterday who was telling me that I'm a child whose twelve now has this check sheet for how do I feel this really happy child? But your meant, thinking all the time that how my feeling right now am I the scale of one. To ten. How happy I am! I These are my how that, on my head, the other might is all terribly bad idea, words clearly Its clearly bad look. Look one

the things I learned when I was treating people who are socially anxious site. I lot anxious people in my area in my clinical practice, which is hardly surprising because that that's the kind of suffering that requires people to see clinical intervention so socially anxious people when they go. Into a new social situation. Think obsessively about how others are thinking about them. Yes, and so and they become self conscious, often about bodily issues, but not only that they might become self conscious about their lack of conversational ability and the fact that you're not very interesting and the fact that their being evaluated by the people, too litany of obsessive thoughts, and you can

you might say. Well, you could train people to stop thinking about themselves, but you can't stop people from thinking about something by telling them to stop thinking about something, but where you can train people can do is to think more about other people, and so one of the techniques that I used in my practice was okay. Now, when you go into a social situation next time we go through the niceties of introducing yourself and making sure they knew your name and get that ritual eyes so that it was practised in expert and therefore not a source of anxiety, but the next thing is your job is to make the other person that you're talking do as comfortable as possible to pay as much attention to them, and so we know that the more you think about yourself. This is literally true There is no difference between thinking about yourself and being miserable,

they load on the same statistical access, and so these kids that are constantly being tormented by a hundred and fifty identity, so that a front not of freedom but of utter chaos and then ass to constantly reflect on their own state. Of emotion, well being and happiness is the surest route to kind of misery. That's going to open them up to two psychogenic epidemics. Let's say the He called out o another clear and then you land into ass. The idea that you make have been led to believe that, because you're not very far girl or are not very masculine boy that that means that really you are of the opposite sex. The fact, as you know, and no one around. You is going to think that you are because you don't look like the opposite sex become even more self conscious, like self consciousness, brought you to this point and now you're hyper aware that everyone around you doesn't think of yourself is the way that you ve just presented yourself, watching for miss gendering and you know,

yeah you're you're actually being told that it's a really terrible thing to do, and that no one would do this unless they really hated you and they wanted you to die. But they want you to appear. They want trans people dead, they want them gone. You know, I mean that's what about me that I want china to cause a genocide of some sort, and I mean like when did I right, such a thing, so what that is its the feeling that you put all of your ability to care about yourself understand yourself to find yourself onto other people and how they're looking at you and are not looking at you right there. Looking at you funny, so you you know

you, and I should control add to that- makes ok. So we can add a couple of other layer, so kids that are well socialized and popular, develop that ability between the age of two and four right and what they undergo this psychological transformation in identity. They go from a two year old egos centralism, so the two year old can only play a game with him or herself. They can't play a shared game and saw two year olds will play in parallel, but they can't play a joint game, and that means that their identity, this is so important. Their identity is purely subjective we defined and they have temper tantrums. If you interfere with that, ok now between two and four most kids extend their identity out into the communal world, and so one of the ways they do. That is mentioned too little kids between the age of, say three and five play in house a little by little

the boy last little girl. Do you want to play house and she ll say yes, and so what that means now they were established a joint identity for for the time span of their play. The joint identity is that their both engaged in the same pistol, logical world in the same concept, work and then they negotiate rules. They will all be the daddy and you be the mummy, and they can flip that, oh by the way- and sometimes they will because they want to play out the other side, but generally they picker sex, appropriate rules for obvious reasons and then having established the goal. So, let's pretend about that: the household which is a form of thought they have to jointly establish an identity that is acceptable to each other, and then they have to do something even more sophisticated which, as they have to conduct themselves in those rules.

so that the game is fun so that both people will keep playing and so that both people want to keep playing with each other now it doesn't take much thought to see that that's exactly that's an analog and approached roma to what you actually was an adult when you enter a intimate relationship, that's long term, as you play house in the long run, but so what happens is between the age of two and four you're right Did he moves from egocentric centric subjectively defined too? communal and negotiated This idea that we have that your idea, is only what you say? It is appeals not only to I suppose, the ideologues that are pushing it, but it also appeals to people who are developmentally stuck, and I mean this in the deepest sense- are stuck at a two year old level of psychological. And I think maybe there's a couple of reasons for that. You imagine A lot of kids are only kids now so they're, not socialized by their siblings,

lot of kids have older parents with lots of resources, so their sheltered in a way that children never have been, and a lot of kids are exposed to computer screens. Tv screens at a very early age. So they don't have the opportunity to engage in the kind of dramatic play that help some developer, extended social identity, and so it's possible on top of all this, that we have an epidemic of narcissism, that's being capitalist, drawn by the woke idiot logs, who are also likely suffering from the same psychopathology. Yes, and if you see a lot of things together, you see a lot of different knee its or am weaknesses are pathologies that are playing out in sync with each other, and so these children. I. I really do think that their victims there, their necessary victims of an ideology,

If you are an adult man who wishes to be seen as a woman and the most important thing that you want is to have people believe that this is in something innate, the people are born this way, and that means there must be children who are trained and it's it's not relevant to you, whether or not that is actually the case for the individual children, the children of the sacrificial victims of the ideology and so got adults who are using children as props for their description of who they are ok, celebs. So, let's dive into that. So one of the things you do in your book as you detail out a lot of sexual fetishist, facing them back a couple of hundred years. So imagine that you're, a hyper masculine mail imagine your little narcissistic in your masculinity

and, let's say, there's a part of your psyche that regards that is unbalanced. And so what happens? Is you start to have fantasies about the value of the contrast? Sexual are temperamental virtues and those would be the feminine ones, but given you're, not very conceptually sophisticated. Maybe the way that counterbalancing tendency manifests itself in you is in fantasies of being female and that then fantasies are so damn deep that they actually involve either in the sexual impulse. So, karl, you who, I think, thought more deeply about this than anyone else I believe that, as we move through life that and we expanded our personalities, that we would expand them beyond the conf call.

I of a rather stereotypical gender identity and incorporate the virtues of the sex that we worked. So that would mean for women that they would become more emotionally stable and also more disagreeable as they got old and for men. It would mean that they became more emotionally volume. And more compassionate as they got old at least they would extend their capability into those domains, and that was necessary, part of expansion and maturity, and then, if that's forestall by narcissism, let's say, or even by inability, then the proclivity to develop those contra sexual tendencies would start to manifest itself in the kinds of fantasies that you described is characteristic of the auto dinah, transsexuals, and so then, if you think that narcissism is part of what striving that right, I mean I'm

she too hard in the direction that I'm going in, so these fantasies manifest and compensate tory way that you get a perfect storm and it's the narcissists who are doing this, that insist upon subjective identity and who, also, by the way, are perfectly willing to sacrifice. Children too purposes, absolutely and anti things that you notice. When you look at these people are one what theirs when they look in the mirror, is not what you are saying and their theirs. In their seeing a fantasy, they're saying a fantastic version of themselves, but you who are not in love with this. This idea I d of the feminine version of this man, your site. Something a lot less flattering, and that's very hurtful to them. That's experienced I he's a psychic insults that you know it because, because it is like me, Flip danger the fantasy like, if you're in this beautiful fantasy and then someone laughs or someone you he and then,

that that's narcissistic rage is what you see as the response. That's right! That's that's right! It's an it's! It's narcissistic rage at in many ways the same level that you'd see in a thwarted two year old Yes, yes, and it feels like that when they were at the receiving end, I have to say you have her. That's for sure. I've done those exact felt both that the world right and when it, when you see that when these see these activists on this front melt down and have a tantrum. If, especially, if you have a clinical, I or you ve been apparent. You think, oh my god, like that's, that exactly what two year olds do and that's a hell of a dirty developmental level to be fixated out in? Oh yeah. That's really bad! That's really bad, that that shows a real disjunction in in psychological development. So it's no wonder this is this is felt as seriously affecting by the people who are affected and yes, so deep, and it involves core issues of identity

and I think it must be felt very differently by a man whose looking ashes like you and a woman like me, because it's not just that it's offence. if that this man is doing what looks to me like a poor and very project imitation of woman, it's all so that I am expected to play along in a way that it really cassimeres of us as a supporting actress in my own life, and if I stay of rome right wage that this brings down is absolutely extraordinary, like your acceptable as a woman as long as you're going along with this if you mention any tiny little bits of need that a woman might have by just one vote, I see that a woman needs that really require. that all males are excluded from somewhere or males. Even the males white enterprise, women, you have it. If he, if you ve seen the worst thing that it's possible to do is like saying that the two year old go to bed or brush your teeth or no I'm kind of another biscuit- and it is it's a meltdown- I'm- I presume it does feel dreadful that person, but it's it's

decision and adults. Oh I'm sure, does why terrible if you watch a two year old having a temper tantrum carefully b and most people won't cause. They ll turn away, because it's too disturbing, if you watch it to your own havoc in temper tantrum one of the things you realises that the overcoming of their developing eagle by those internal systems of rage and distress, is a catastrophic defeat for the for the beginning, unity of the individual, and so then what you do with your apparent with any clue is that you set up the environment so that tantrums are brought to a halt and eradicated in some sense, in as a form of acceptable behaviour as rapidly as possible. And you don't do that by suppressing the child's capacity for anger distress. You do that by integrating the capacity for

present anger into a higher order personality. So and this year you setup- you talked about this parody element. So let's go into that cause. I've noticed to a lot of the behaviour that I see on the part of people who are aping, women, let's say looks to me like a parity, and I think that part of the reason they get so mad at women who don't play along is because they also have this fantasy of women femininity as merely as passive, receptive, all encompassing it's kind of the counterpart to the submission element that goes along with dominance and submission play that you often see more hyper masculine men attracted to, and so on But why women, when women stand up for themselves, they also violate the image of docile and receptive femininity. That plays such major role in the fantasy life of the people who are engaged in say, cross dressing, I think that's absolutely right and I would add something else to that, which is that I think that both sexes do you have a somewhat

and maybe idealized version of what it is to be a member of the opposite sex and a man may have a fantasy version of what it just an ordinary man, an ordinary heterosexual man whose happily married and has female friends. He may also I have some quite fantastic. The ideas about what it would be like to be a woman like that you know you can way back and let the man do the work or that it must be lovely to to be so fragrant all the time or something you have to you know you have these very superficial ideas of what it is to be a member of the opposite sex and that's true. I haven't important pornography as well women as imagined by men in pornography, nothing like real women, just like the men who were written by women in erotica or nothing like real men, and see that too in these. What looked to me like parodies, but I dont think their intended to be parodies: they're not meant to be insulting the man

describing what he sees. I wouldn't be so sure about that. I will get interesting about that. Well, because we also don't know to what degree the vitriol that's directed towards women. That's a consequence of this narcissism is also a reflection of a genuine hatred, and they ask why we should never forget just exactly what kind of radical in revolutionary genius sigmund freud really what yes, because freud to put his finger on the key pathology of our time, even our time more than his, because he regarded the Oedipus complex as the source of all pathology and the need of a complex was essentially the catastrophic consequences

of the non judge. Mental non, discriminating, hyper, compassionate all accepting maternal spirit, and so freud's idea was something- and you can think about this biologically. Do freud's idea with something like this, so human beings are peculiar among animals, let's say- and there are two or three developmental reasons for this first were born, fetal so because there's an arms race between the child's head, circumference and that and the carrying capacity of the female pelvis for purposes of earth. If the pelvis was any wider in the hole in the middle any wider, then he female local everywhere. yeah right, exactly into the way we ironed out over evolution is that babies are born far too young for gap there born at nine months. Instead of two years in their heads or compressed simple

and so and that's why the mortality rate for human babies is so high. It's a real narrow passage into life, let's say: okay, and so what that means is that humans are hyper, our hyper dependent, particularly for the first time years, but then because we also have this amazing plastic socially constructively, brain, at least to some degree. We have this immense period of dependence now the risk in that is that, because we are so dependent, an excess of compassion is necessary, especially in the first six months, because it's in the right, it responds to a human infant under six months of age. Is your one hundred percent correct about anything that distresses you? One hundred percent of the time and your needs have to take priority over absolutely everything else, and mothers have to be wired to by that. Yes now, the problem is so. This is why the psychoanalysts they said the good mother.

necessarily fails and so the mother has this terrible conundrum. She has to be willing to sacrifice herself to this infant fully, but then, as the infant matures, she has to sacrifice her own compassion and pull back and start to become harsh and more encouraging and demanding simultaneously now she has a man along with her that's easier, because it's easier for him to play that role and that's a cardinal rule that the masculine spirit plays. But freud's point was well. This protracted period of dependence exposes us to the terrible risk that we never emerge. out of infancy, and the terrible devouring mother is a symbol of the person for whom compassion has become a hyper, dominant and devouring force, and that is precisely the problem. The political problem of our time said this reflexive compassion,

that is now deemed it, it's deemed morally necessary that it must govern everything. If you don't feel absolutely one hundred percent sorry for people as if their infants, then europe predator, and two things that use that I was thinking when you said that one was that what I'm doing when I refuse to accept a man who says he's a woman as a woman is I'm like mother, whose refusing to give the infants what he wants, which is really a wicked person, but we better reporting predator bull yeah. And and so so the rage is there, I'm I'm stepping out of role for a woman, and I the other one is the the most enraging thing for anybody is too desperately wanted to be something that they can never be or to desperately want something that they can never have and so in a man. Who's got himself into this head space where he can be a woman in his own mind,

somebody who says no and that no can be in one the end of the world can just be in one place. It could just be an rate crisis centre. Say that's no good enough. That's not good enough! That is observing the way, the dream and I'm being very, very woman. Stepping stepping up roma woman was firstly, for this hyper idealized, feminine, compassionate woman, right s, all encompassing all, loving and all nurturing, and you see again in two year old. You know I'd just watching this right now with my grandson, the most. the most magic word. The magic word for two year olds is not please the magic word for two year olds is no yes and it I would say, twenty percent of the utterances of a two year old is no and that's because now is the word you used to give yourself some space in some sense and so to your old. Don't like it when you say no to them:

next, the mad, and they pushed the boundaries as they should, because they need to find where the boundaries are. That's what you should do when you're too, and if, if You haven't had those boundaries organised you in a systematic way, didn't it you to expand your personality so that you can find alternative cooperative roots tat patient and you just face this arbitrary, no or you dont face it at all. Then gonna end up being a person for whom no is well. It has the same. If on you, as it does on the recalcitrant two year old, demolishes your entire emotion. being the same way that no demolishes the world of a two year old yeah, I mean and the strange thing. The very strange thing is that sometimes this is described as you know, conservative or lately libertarian values, so I just saw somebody here recently say I'd like to see the conservative party here in england make the case for self idea. the conservative case for self idea that it's not

but he else's business, to tell rubbish, exactly exactly how much interpretation of yes. Well, the idea that identity is subjectively defined is utterly preposterous, he doesn't apply it doesnt, applying any situations where there's more than one person involved, and then this weird, devolution of that ideas like one. Not only do you get to say exactly what you are now. First of all, we could talk about what you are, what what you means, but the second part of that is an Hands on your feeling: well, what is that feeling is that your moment to moment, balance between positive and negative emotion, that's now the arbiter of reality itself and then What are you well the answer to the question: what are you is? It depends on the context, and we actually know this personality researchers notice, so we all have a temperament t, that's

partly biologically instantiated and partly socially constructed. But if you How much are innate temperament measures of our innate temperament can be used to predict our behavior from situation to situation. It tops out at about nine to sixteen percent, so that means- and maybe twenty five percent. In the case of I q, which is the most powerful temperamental factor, we know seventy five percent of what determines your outcome even on the cognitive front is social context, and that means like the progress claim to two too to believe that about eighty percent of your personality is socially negotiated. Eighty percent, so that animals are also what that means is so imagine you temperamental extroverted, and so you wanna talk like I do all the bloody time I'm still gonna shut up, mostly in a funeral right right.

Right now I might be the most talkative person at the funeral right, but I'm still going use the context. To regulate my behavior, and what that means is that the context actually defines my identity. and that's how it should be. That's what happens if you're a civilised person is the context, defines your identity period. The end, and then at the strange thing that layers on top of that is that not only are they saying that how you feel I know, who you are there saying that it to find out who you are, that you're, a woman, no you're, a man when those- I the most in a concrete things of anxious, the most non negotiable things of anxious, the most bedrock things of anxious like far more than our iq. While they might the most bedrock thing about this right, which man is why the culture war centering on this issue because It is a war between epistemological ontology or between. Let's say narcissistic delusion and reality.

Itself. Then the battle devolved to identity on the grounds of sex right is what it wanted I'd say, biology is destiny. yeah I mean I dont believe that's entirely well control entirely. Well, we, on top of my did you we have. You know we have got this civilization, that we ve built and its various it's very angry to biology. Of course it is, but it is also to some extent malleable that we do co negotiations and different societies to some extent, on top of that, but then to have this, here that a man can say I wish I was a woman, I feel like I'm really woman or I think I'm a woman inside which are thing. Only a man can say. I can't wish to be a woman, I feel like I should have been a woman, those things only possible for men and the Those things are meant to make you a woman It's so detached from reality that this there's no tether so anywhere like this, can just flows of anything at all and that's what we see this weird proliferation of you know

horror, gender or somebody being gray, sexual or something and its great good? It goes off into my stamp collecting levels of, of precision, indifference and so on. What there's another issue that comes up their two's is so in this is relevant to your claim, which is entirely war. that we're we very on top of our biology and so, for example, there is a lot of biological and socially construction variants in temperament on top of biological sex, and so you, you could say, without fear of error, that a reasonable per cent of boys have a feminine temperament, and so that would mean there s more negative, emotion there more compassionate and their more interested in people than in things. Those are the cardinal differences between the masculine and the feminine and a non trivial number of boys have those characteristics. Just like A non trivial number of girls are less compassion,

impolite so more competitive, let's say there more emotionally stable and there are more interested in things now those relatively rare girls in relatively rare boys, but statistically there are hardly what would you say. The hardly They're not so rare that you don't see them all the time and might be. Ten percent of boys are essentially feminine in their temperament, ten percent of girls and that's a lot and what that should and so that at the level of temperament, which is really where gender should be conceptualize. There are no good measures of gender. There are good measures of temperament and interest that differentiate men women. I give you if use measures of temperament, including interest. You can reliably identifies. Someone is a man or a woman about eighty percent of the time, something like that

so. You do a fifty fifty on the basis of chance and with the good with the best measurements we have you get that up to seventy five, twenty five or eighty twenty, but that certainly by no means perfect identification. one of the things that perverse about this too. Isn't it is that, despite the claims of the radicals, that identity is socially constructed and variable There are fundamental notion is that if you have a variable temperament, so if your feminine boy, then what that means is that your biological reality is out of sync because the biology is so fundamentally important in that case but never in any other case. Yes, it only. It's so incoherent man, it's unreal. It can completely, and I mean also if we were to say which would be a terrible thing to say, and I don't say as if we were to say that this ten or twenty per cent of boys, who are actually statistically speaking more like the standard for girls, if we were to say well actually they're really girls,

that's not what we're seeing. There's no objective claim here that would at least be semi objective. Obi absolutely repulsive as well there just slightly I of work. Boys, you know, but it's the people who are claiming a man can tell you he's a woman or a woman can tell you she's a man in a day. There's no way you could say now, you're, actually just very like a man, so you can't be a woman like in particular he could be a rapist the most masculine thing, he thought so we don't even say that a trans woman who commits rape, thereby demonstrates this claim to be in some gendered way. Really a woman has hesitant that's been disproved. Yes, in your book, you also talk about. Oh, yes, so there's another element, that's at work here too, and that now is the trans transformations are also on the cutting edge of I a trans humanism, that's also aimed at the in some sense, at the eradication of death itself. Right so there's another utopian dream

that sitting underneath this, which has positive element I would say to because we are trying to improve the length of our life into rejuvenate ourselves. And there is an open question here is how far can the transformation of our identity go in an increasingly technological world and how far should they go and and the trans humanist types who believe example, that our consciousness could be uploaded into a computer and that we can be propagated forever. Also have a proclivity to fall into the cap, That says that your identity is only what you say. It is right. It's the sole idea. That's that's independent! the body and there's a wish and that to be free of the change and constraints of mortal existence in and you can stand that is well, but it's but running away from something into fashion, The sea is not the way to address it. I'm

This is a fantasy, isn't isn't it's a fantasy, that's rather similar to being of the opposite sex, the fantasy that you know you can control death itself, life and death or in your hands, is the fantasy of being a gold not just being immortal but being a gorge and sometimes people express that, as you know, ripley light ways to talk about water. Major operations like any one has been through sex. Yes, I'm surgery, as it's called, although of course we can't actually reassign sex, will tell you that this was a major operation and the question of how am how contention what the outcome depends: a loss on how realistic your ideas about beforehand were soldiers. business with gender? Just for you for many years, and you do it then in it it may actually just make you feel a bit better. But if you thought to be turned into the opposite sex? You will be disappointed because these are, we are not made meat lego. I also don't think that the damage that this actually makes people feel better is really

very clear I just I'm not sure at all that tiny minority of people that we help. First of all, truly helped yeah because there's so much idiot ideology, obscuring this and so much self deception and narcissism on the part of the people who are doing it and undertaking it that we don't have clear data what we bloody well do know is that a huge number of people who are doing this have been poland, with psychogenic fad and then are undergoing leave oblique dangerous hormonal transformation. Cause hormones are no joke, they are powerful physiological agents and then the surgery itself is: why couldn't it if the We waited could be more brutal in a fundamental sense as if it was done without an aesthetic. I this. Not some thing you waltz into for one day and and and then I get a minor modification of some. Trivial element of your identity. Isn't

july procedures is- and I know that the whole should archways well, you know that you can go through the honest sex puberty or that You know that the wilder reaches of the trends lobby, we'll talk about things like putting all children on puberty blockers until we grow up and that we decide which puberty want to undergo an amended. I was born catholic, I'm no longer believe are a tool, but I listened to this and I just think that's that's demonic. Actually, it's a hell of a legal and eggs catholic to say you have it. I don't want you to say that two children to give children that idea, I think you know, ever whosoever mislead one of these children, in whose and worse thing I can do now, and they yeah time. Well, so while so, let me ask you about this, then you know. One of the things that I have noticed is that people tend to come to religious convictions, not so much when they discover the nature of good, but when they discover the nature of evil and the reality

of evil- and you call you know you described yourself- has elapsed catholic, let's say, but you ve been talking about the battle. That's been happening right now in religious and theological terms, and I think that indicates the depth. the battle and then also making the case that, while the willingness to sacrifice children to the dictates of a narcissistic etiology borders on the demonic, pretty strong language for someone who's, not religious, and so one of the things I have been concerned about is that when god dies to use the nature and friends and we no longer a tribute to god. What is god's and a tribute to Caesar what is Caesar's? We start to a tribute to Caesar what is god's and that contaminates the political with them, judges, and so I think that, even if you're a secular is, you have to start to understand if you're sophisticated, that some element- of the axioms of perception and commission themselves. Are so deep there so fundamental

outside the realm of the political they might even be outside the realm of the philosophical They're down in the realm of the sacred nightmares. Ok, ok, So why why? What given your lapsed, catholic state, let's say, where this weird right cause. There's this is this excellence in in europe. centralisation. I don't. I don't feel I know you know anything about this yeah. Ok, ok, so I'd like to hear about about so I dont describe myself has elapsed catholic because really, I just don't believe at all any more, but the reason I don't believe is that I don't think it's true. It's not because I and feel The emotional and spiritual content of what's being said is that I think, if its factually fools and made it just shows. My lack of poetry and imagination is a human being, but I can't get past it anyway. However, I do think that there is something sacred

in the creation of a new life by a couple and a mother who grows a baby for nine months are done it twice. It was it's not something that you could or should talk about monetary or financial or economic terms, or even in prosaic everyday terms, it something extraordinary. It's a miracle and secular terms. You, if you ve, done something miraculous. and then children are such precious little things. You know feel that as a mother, I feel that is a sister of a younger sibling now and nineteen children. You know it's not something that we should treat so lightly and I'd, because I was brought up catholic as an irish catholic, the language that I turned to. I have no other language to use for how seriously I take the wrong is being done. Look in my in my clinical practice. It was always the case that, when I was dealing with the most fundamental catastrophes of people's lives or the most profound

experiences of their lives, that the language would automatically become religious, and that was the case even if people that I were what was talking to were explicitly a religious or secularist The reason for that is that we actually have a domain of deep language and when fall into the domain of deep language, we're in the domain of the sacred and in trying to think about that. Technically, so imagine this. You know we have this notion of literary depth right some stories or shallow. Some stories are deep. Ok one feels that and everyone pretty much accepts the fact that same with music, the same with beauty, any art form there's shallow elam aspects, and there are deep aspects and deep ass. ex move, you they move, you deeply, so they have emotional residents and they call the eu is well right, they call you to a better version of yourself and part of the depth. So many then the deeper an idea is, is precisely purple

to the number of other ideas that that I that depend on that idea, right and so then, as we move down into the depths- and we start talking about well the category of sex, for example, or that That's stellar purity and attractiveness of children You really see. If you can see children you're way down in the depths. When you see that that's how children reward you for having them right is that there is such a response. ability and such a miracle at the same time that the mere call of the relationship that you can have with them amply He pays you for the responsibility, if you, if you can only see it, but then you have to go down into the depths and take that relationship as a sacred reality and and ethical requirements and yeah you deal with those things casually at your great peril and

It's funny, I may I said, are you don't use the language of economics about them, but I mean there is something I often think- and I say it in a joke he way, but I'm completely serious too. I made a choice. Does the ultimate non fungible good rifle couple of things: are the things that it doesn't matter, which one is a is one gold piece of gold. Bullion is the same as another one by barrel of oil. Is it the same as another? One child is not the same as another, and if you lose a child, you can't replace that child. So Why is that like? Why do we feel like that will? Obviously, in my opinion, evolution gave it to us a religious person. My conceive of that differently. But the feed is the same, and I find now in ways that before I found this topic, I have fruitful and interesting to me at least conversations with religious people, because they take this seriously to them in it that they feel a sense of all

at goes well right that all of our? What what you see, I think, when you have a relationship with child, your own child in particular, as you can see them most clearly in some real sense- is that you see the manifestation, they image of god I mean to me: it's the its evolution is the thing that did that, but evolution give you that eyes ends of all you know you don't it's it's not something you treat lightly, it's not something that isn't miraculous and they see But maybe we ve gone off topic alone, but I think it's why mothers and people who can about child protection or among the people who are most disturbed by what's happening here, because if you take children seriously. And if you take the task, of creating a world in which little human beings can turn into healthy whole responsible, good adults

who can live full, rounded, satisfying lives that are not just good for themselves, but good for the other people around them. You know. That's again, I have to and the sacred language is a sacred task and to see people so wilfully tell small children lies like that. Can be either sex if you want or that sex the spectrum or that there were assigned to sex of birth, were that's people are non binary or that, if you, you know If, when you're seven, you decide that you really a boy, you just go on puberty blockers and take testosterone and debbie little operation, and I feel livid, these people really live it now. I feel exactly the same while, hence my banning from twitter says, and I have taken a lot of flak about that. You know one people tell me while you were so mean to Ellen page, and I think well, oh ellen page is a star and she advertised her transformation and made the claim that is, has revolutionized her life.

and then she displayed her new body in a public forum and got one point: seven million instagram likes for it and problems. enticed but let's say one young girl whose confused into becoming sterile, which is what too many for me, but it could be as many as one hundred and five hundred two thousand, and I have my tendency to You're, a hell of a lot more sorry for a set of confused icily and lonely to bessie those who have no one to love them enough to help them. Pritchett who they are. then I do for one over privileged and unfortunately confused narcissistic hollywood star, the same I mean I don't particularly want to say anything about Ellen page. I think you said you said enough It is clear, no novels and ups conceives that it clearly enough. I would just you personalize it, and I would say that it's back to the nurses and the focus on one person at the expense of every

the else so that the things as most remarkable about this movement is, you know there are many p. Those who are suffering or underprivileged? aged or vulnerable, or indeed like really really really hard done by like a cat. if my once said to me, why are we not talking about these cities? Why are we not talking about child abuse victims? Why the suffering trans person or the? and transitioned trans child the mortar figure of all an Mr Crowley, that we're trying to figure out a yeah yeah so and why? If in? Why is it as if to do so? that child, like the worst thing that ever happened to anybody to feel gender discovery. I think most people feel gender just for you in some respect. Why? sort that out, we sacrifice any number of other people What were the iron raised, its a form of narcissistic self consciousness, mean, and everyone does feel that for sure- and I think

I feel that most acutely at a puberty mean people are while we know we're mortal, we know our flaws. We know we're going to die. We know we aren't canonical examples of our sex that we could be much better. A thousand ways than we are, we all have the bear that burden and so that this for yeah, that's mortality dysphoria and it can manifest itself in all sorts ways and that's part, parcel the human condition, but to entice young people into swimming, that radical surgical transformation is the sure cure, for that is what I also believe that borders on the demonic I compared the people who are doing site, doing a transformation surgery on on minors to people who sacrificed children to mock and I do see it in exactly the same way everywhere The thing about having done that, you know this is so strange to is that almost

the comments I got for that article from the telegraph and also on my: u do general almost all of them were support. yeah way more than I thought there would be- and I thought Well, if everyone agrees that this is wrong,. why the hell are we doing it? I mean false consciousness. People believe that other people don't agree with them. I mean that is one of the purpose of conversations like this is to show the people that you can actually say these things. I mean an easy for either you or me, and we have had a significant bloated france. Let's talk about I want to know like. I know what happened to me. When you wrote this book, what happened to you, I mean not as much as might have because my employer isn't a coward. So it turns out that you don't need very much bravery to stand up to these people, because am the viciousness

it's worse! If you giving in any way nor you, yes, you ve seen that you seeing that somebody or something and then they apologize. They just come after you with redoubled ferocity. So I dont think that, The editor of the economist agreed with me at least at first, but she doesn't bali her and she does like free speech, and so the first trying to get me fired. She tell them sharpish where to put us Ok, so you had employers support. Yes, employee support is very important I often think about what happens to people in this social media age and in particular those of us who tool contracts, issues, but also those who talk on race issues as being the modern form of the pillory. You shall have your change rather than an injured you're, not you're, not hanged or crucified your your specifically shamed. That's the aim, And it's done in a way so as to maximize the fear that other people feel that they will also suffer the same fate

because there's nothing they can do to help you if you're brought to the pillory like if a woman is brought to the pillory, let's just say a woman, because I'm a woman, another woman could stand by her to show solidarity, but it wouldn't do any good sheet would be shamed then just mean that there were two. I am asked instead of one. So then you think like what do you do? and the pillory its smashed solidarity, actually it some its powerful people, you, if you are protection of somebody with social capital. You wouldn't be. You wouldn't suffer this fate. This is for the outcasts, So it's actually the job of employers and institutions to stand up here. You mean rather than to censor, for example, yes behind and you don't have to say very much like Kathleen stalks. Some university did eventually say some good things about free speech, but she had been going for three years and they had said nothing if the first time they attacked her. The university had said very clearly. We support free speech. We support academic freedom, we do tolerate attacks on our staff. I guarantee you. The mobile have gone elsewhere, straightaway,

Instead, it was made clear that she was available to be brought to the pillory, so I didn't have that. Ok. So then, next question is. Why do you think what has changed? It has made our institution so utterly cowardly in the face of the narcissistic minority mob cause things changed. It wasn't like this, years ago. You could see it a bit. It certainly wasn't like this twenty years ago, so is it? Is it? Do you think it is it fundamentally the power that social media has been brought to the to the obsessively and narcissistic, we outraged minority or what do you think it is yes, so I think that plays a part. But the thing is you We can do the same thing about social media. They can put aims. A short statement saying we stand by Helen Joyce are caffeine stock or whoever it is she's, an excellent journalist, journalist, russia's an excellent academic move, and they move on. They really do move on. So it's the it's the fao.

That institutions haven't learned to deal with social media. They think they have to engage. I dont know why they do that. It's stupid I've seen it repeatedly. ok, so I have a hypothesis about that. Look you tell me you think of this. Well, look if Conservative type, you tend to be conscientious, they aren't you. People tend to be guilt problem, because they there and be seen to do their duty and they want to do their duty, and so what that means is that, if you're, if you're a narcissist and a mob of thirty torch, bear Neighbours show up on your doorstep and tell you that your shameful you don't because you're a narcissist your low in conscientiousness? Your parasitic, your disagreeable, you could care less what other people think, and so the mob has no effect on you, but if a conscientious and thirty people show up then you're going to think. Well, thirty people wouldn't be on my doorstep. If I may be done something wrong and I'm not perfect, and so maybe I should scour my conscience, and you know rip

and of my sins publicly, because Well. Why would I presume I'm right when I know I'm imperfect, that works really well on conscientious people, and now, with with social media networks, a mob from anywhere in the world can aggregate itself and even if it's one person in a million who's annoyed at you. If a hundred million people are watching than a hundred, people can show up on your doorstep with torches and pitchforks, and so I think that this gill, targeting that the nurse assisting psychopaths using social media is particularly effective on decent conserved. Traditional people and so on, you need to learn that we're not in kansas anymore. Things are not you know they they were. They were prepared because it's how you it's the first from you, do that's catastrophic! If, economist, because it's very america focused, but it's still a brevet british publication. I think it had a couple years notice that things were

friends, and so when these started, you know they they were. They were prepared because it's how you it's the first thing. You do. That's catastrophic if you make a mist on the very first thing, then it's very hard to read. It's because they know that you'll give way. You've proved it, so they will never leave you alone, noticed for a while being subscribing to the economist forever. Such a great design and I noticed over the last six. Seven years, that back an alarming degree of openness, had crept into its hallowed hall Ways- and then I noticed about three years ago- that the time it turned and that people had woken up so to speak to some degree at the economist and started to push back against a fair bit this nonsense- and I was so relieved about that- and so I dont know, if that's I don't know, that's commensurate with your expense Is there, but thank god there are some institutions that still have the ability to stand up and say no like a like a fur, and carrying parent. Let's say

I shouldn't really come into my own employer hoop and very good to me. So you know I still hopeful it's just some of those older values of discretion and loyalty, and so on that are so easy for the modern? I did a dentist area norse assist to hijack and to use against you. So I think that the thing that we're seeing we're seeing the rise of the toxic underling. I coalition my mind, you know we all marais about very toxic bosses are like, like a toxic boss, can ruin but he's experience in an entire workplace. But that's like a that's why right wing toxicity- and that is the it's the toxicity that enabled by authorised the chain commands and law. ill t, discretion, ability and sooner these values that are good and bad of the of the right wing. And now you imagine, you gotta toxic underling, whose somebody has completely convinced of their own rightness, whose junior willing to tell any lies in the service of what they see as the greater good? who have no loyalty whatsoever who think that the institution is

irremediably sexist racist transported, back homophobic everything, phobic and who think It's their job to to enter to fight the bottom up and then what is going to say the second thing that stands alone- social media, as the enabling factor in all of this- is the rise of the d. I industry, diversity, equity and inclusion. Nor, yes and the thing is: if you are living in the old world, if we were still living in kansas, but it would not be too bad because this ok I have some more diversity, that'd be great, you know. Equity is not a bad thing in itself and I don't want to exclude anybody of course, but we're not in Kansas, we're living in world where everything is upside down and so within world d, I is weapon waste and create the store as underlined phenomenon, whereby just some junior person can cause tire organization to have a meltdown by. just like that, because if they do, they will be told that their racist, sexist homophobic transported back everything, it feel like they can say is that's ridiculous.

I should have been to talk about us like that, because if they do, going to publish my new book I renovation and order everything else right. But you know what yeah yeah and my daughter- and I are a response to penguin- was hey. Look you got six or seven applies here in the because ass, you can say to those people. There was a rebellion that penguin random house. When the news came out that they were going to publish my new book. I read about it in order. Yeah yeah and my daughter- and I are a response to penguin- was hey. Look you got six years I read here in the greatest few I was in the world and they just totally there perfectly willing to ban books. They haven't, read and then have a down about it. Hey Just told you who you should fire. Why don't you fire them. And the answer was well. We can't do that. It's like well normal, people might not even to have them, come in improved eu that they should never have been hired and they ve been really

values which were narcissistic leeson sorrel we're at one hundred percent odds with yours, but the trick is to not higher those people might not even have them come in and prove to you that they should never have been hired, and they ve been a few really interesting articles about these millstones that I read in the past few weeks and there was a sort of the justice just a couple of since that we're up by the bye and one of them, and it was in it, was a lot of employee of them and players, especially in washington, in the ngo and non profit and charitable sector. You know and they were saying how they can get no work done anymore, but the just can do nothing. The engineer organization is tied up in these interminable slack channel. Does conversations about you know how, need to rearrange and everything and intellectually doing their charitable or their nonprofit mission anymore. They have stopping mission, focused a tool and why of them said we real is belatedly that we have suffered less than some other people, because

he didn't mention who it was an. We have someone on staff who, a year or two ago, was caught up in one of these horrendous social media, dragons and so, social justice warriors wonderful. I'm apply to work here, so they what kind of a novelist against it? So I think that zone trick to work at how you don't higher these people, and I think it's by stating your values really really clearly and that those values must be our we are facing. They must be to do with your mission that the mission comes first and that every is expected to sign up. Well, that's also, a reflection of the belief in that underlying ontological reality right. We actually have a job Do yes at a job in the real world and its of paramount importance and what you, if you don't feel like thou job, is worth doing then this isn't that for you all right. Well we're coming up at the end of our half hour or hour and a half. I am going continue talking about These issues with Helen,

daily wire plus channel we're going to actually go into the details of the development of a career and and expand that into a philosophical discussion. Hello, everyone, I would encourage you to continue listening to my conversation with my guest on daily wire plus dot com.