Dave Ramsey & George Kamel discuss:
- Using savings to pay off a home,
- Why a pension doesn't count toward the 15% retirement goal,
- Moving up in house for safety reasons,
- Investing more than 15% to make up for lost time.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
I
the headwaters ramsay solution broadcasting in the parts of moving and storage studios. It's the ramsay show where that is dom casual gaming and paid off old mortgage has taken the place of the Bmw status symbol of choice. We help people build well, you work that they love three eight actual amazing relationship. George camel ramsay personality, the most hated man. The restaurant industry is Michael o. Today, it's an honor that an end by the horse, people to you how gas africa about the actual contingencies of people that hate you its awesome, I'm so clear.
that you're moving things around and causing from friction.
As you are not around yesterday soviet
We pushed a thing on instagram that is cheaper to eat at home than is cooking europa. The news to eat out and apparently the
a revelation to be born america. So,
we ve had a lot of fun. Making fun of you. People that have argued with george common sense is offensive. These days it so rare. It's like having a superpower, abigails weathers abigails in nashville, high abigail, welcomes the ramsay show
Dave, I George, has got to talk to you now you two what's up
my husband and I are and babies that number six and were curious. If we should use our savings, the pay off our house,
either now or in the near future. Why
No
Well, that is by restructuring
May we been unemployed and september, my husband are fixed,
get a job and mocked our next week. Joy
in committee we had before,
but then I'm also eight months, eight months pregnant, phenomenal.
Almost when you, so you can also be used to live an emergency fund after you pay off your outright and I think
so we we have about one seventy five.
Favorite now in various money, market, eurobonds, but other stuff
and we owe a hundred and forty eight thousand so well beyond,
fifty thousand bucks left toy. Five thousand bucks left over
says that we're gonna be earned our emergency funds, which are also learn so
with this new job will be forty thousand a year? Oh yeah, probably laughed more
Really. What would you won't do it? I told you I mean: do you might well after the big baby,
while the prairies knock on effect coming by business,
foreclosures closures, nor a trail
you have health insurance and you have your emergency fund. If toy,
a thousand dollars, you have health insurance. Your husband has a job.
paid for house. I can't think of a better thing for a baby to come home to Alex,
What's your mortgage payment,
So our mortgage right now is about thirteen hundred.
Under what circumstances do you need a hundred and fifty thousand dollars for your baby?
we got by I'm part of that was the sovereigns package an open. Under what circumstances would you need a hundred and
fifty thousand dollars due to the fact you're having a baby next month.
We want me that much. I can't think of one. That's what I'm saying,
where the inertia you said, yeah, but baby doorway life? Maybe I don't know what to do with it.
then even create cash flow next month, because you don't have principle and interest to pay through her wages
under our current insurance plan, I think we have like seventeen thousand in our deductible, though the baby had a mchugh stay. We'd still need quite a bit of cash, but that's just like the worst case scenario:
Well, it's not the end of the world to wait until I come in
comes. If you want to, but the point being that you know what I don't
What you sitting around figure out a way rationalizing should keep this money because it makes you feel safe because pay.
If a home gonna make you feel safer and by the way they hate being
for you can all go, get a mortgage layer?
I think we will enjoy attire. Think soil.
want. Wanna wins maybe do on january.
any indications that there is any issues now good
Well, congratulations as wonderful, exciting time. Someone for dragoon about ears is the difference in four weeks or five weeks. We add that I,
pay off your house right now or pay it off of ebay becomes adam care at the world,
but what I want. What I do want to challenge and what I was doing is to chat just challenger, critical thinking on it because
what happens is? Ah
people me included gus babies are so cool
they scare you
when they got home because it's a whole new set of responsibilities, even if it's the second or third minutes that much more.
possibility, and so will you another them look.
Yeah, true going, I just cast a lot of money. You know it's I mean I I you know I've been through that myself as a as a as a dad and then as a granddad's. I get all of that, but what that is
just thinking with emotion rather than actual math, and that a short
swine pushing back, as I just want you to think you know critically. Thinking is
one percent chance that paying off your house's problem here and but
that one percent of it just makes you feel better. Why don't you buy, becomes home and then pay off the house, but don't do not get too
in february, where the mortgage, under it
circumstances unless, unless baby
serious problems in europe like yourself, some I'm nick do stay or something, but just now
Don't don't not figure out another reason to kick the canned on road. This emotional, not logical, show
there's always a what, if out their plan yeah, but
the other thing is most of em and better with.
For house me what, if
losers, the new job, we're how what it,
what? If what? If? What? If what? If you don't have a mortgage payment next month ago,
Brady's in saint louis I Brady. What's up,
guys. I had on great come help pages
a couple questions where your idea on twenty one years old,
Diane I mean college and butter graduate here. May I remind thank you, sir,
he signed to start a position already so
and what you're angry at me
in computer science, with thy concentration software engineers, one well done her, yet
Thank you and I are,
be working out, boeing and channels as well
four engineer, so I super excited about that. But by against my general question is how can I set my
up, and I was the answer now getting married in the backyard september. How do I set myself up my kids up my fiance? A whole family law
he'll be successful month a month and for southern for retirement and live comfortably? What are you gonna be making
I'll be at eighty two thousand starting salary and oliver eight thousand? Finally, but listen may unnecessary.
this future cage. Your fiance minority have gideon aria, get exactly other thinking ahead.
So do you have any debt?
I have no student loans graduating. I have about twitter,
two thousand dollars and car alone- ok,
well, you're a one would be to pay that off. When you get out you any money saved up
I have about two
thousand dollars said got now,
we'll get graduated get married, get the job get that car paid off as thing one, your mouth,
for wealth building tools, your income, it if you could given it to the people as such
right now got here, sir.
best thing you can do is get added. It stay out of it:
have a pile of money in the bank, be investing for the future pay.
The house once you get that as soon as you again and man that
it is the way to set up your family future and you're gonna, get there no time at twenty one, making the money you're making that's going going up from here. If you follow the steps, the baby steps we teach here I'll, be there are no time. I'm gonna give you financial peace university to help kick start this journey for use to hang on a line. Awesome pick up when you give you that watch all nine lessons with your fiance premarital counselling, it'll change everything man, I'm telling you
Every young couple getting married oughta do that, while this is the rams,
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bad deal, today's cos
comes from clare in vermont. She asked
does contribution towards teacher pension count in the fifteen percent, investing in retirement or should fifteen
we shouldn't be invested, and then the pension contribution be extra. On top of that, I'm asking for my mother in law, who is sixty three? She started an ira outside of the pension, but that's been started
pretty recently.
So our numbers got thrown around their attention. But what she's asking is you know if the company
paying into the pension. Not the person louder,
in effect, this baby set for fifteen preserves on at all,
got any money. If you have a pension that you are required, that mandatory for you to put money in an
putting in fifteen percent. There's two problems with it
three bramble, that one is you have no control of it? It's not. An asset of yours is an asset of the company. The company goes bro
the pension goes with it. So if
You work for ex wisely company that just filed chapter eleven bankruptcy because they ruined bitcoin or something then you would have zero pension. Does your pension goes broke when the continent of broke
the second problem with the pension. Is you don't have control over what's and it is invested in, and so it doesn't produce as much income later on and have
the third problem. Is it does when you die
show you lose it. It's gone, poof just like smoke and so on
about to say, if you are putting fifteen percent and it's not as good as you putting fifteen percent in the other, but what counts
count it something. If I were
in your shoes. I behalf or something like that. As we usually say, yeah, so low
for example, if you have to put into it
percent its mandatory. We would count that at about six percent half because of the
poor performance because you ve no control sophie,
have that six you'd still put another nine to get to fifteen percent baby step for great question
marion, Boise, idaho? I marry welcome the rams issue. Working people taking recall sure,
I have a question about gift, giving and give precise
at the holidays.
my husband and I are. We don't have any
other than like no credit card, that no, I didn't
that we do have some.
we'll be back, not home, of course, come around
we pay no dot, and every year we colors dublin. I have three dublin I haven't
he'll than the total of eleven, even the nephew off our parents. We decided no get richer
What do you want to hang out and
here we find out everybody getting us gifts and then lap
the new minute we all we decide to buy
and something, but it doesn't go like it's coming from the heart, though I get
constant. It is cheaper.
I know that wording be were even give, but not give gift, because we are focusing on our or is this
I'm when we just put our foot
until goals aside, so that we can get people with something
I don't wanna go to eat
I personally don't let your cheap, I think force generosity where I'm I'm giving you something and I'm expecting
in return. That is now
the spirit of giving to begin with.
if you ve had a conversation and they are resentful of you than you.
carry the that's not, I know I don't like there's resentment air, its guilt on your bad work in a working at giving something anyway, so then saw educated.
Get in between our ears, where we feel like we're being cheap by night, getting everybody something
but I mean, if you do well the
got your net and do whatever you want to do. Obviously, regional any family can do whatever they do. Our fail.
lays years ago, when shown and I went broke, we sat down
with all of her brothers and sisters. Thirteen grandkids on that side,
and far brothers
sisters, spouses right so twenty some people involved
yeah and going into christmas at her folks as an example right and we
to sit down with them and we said guys were really sorry. We cannot afford
by every by a gift and show where begging
you guys to join
in this, it's kind of gotten ridiculous anyway and
then let the adults draw names and each one by one, a gift and and little
that are under whatever ten or something it gifts and the rest of them are in the drawing. You know
Ok, whatever thing, and would you
join us in the us, because we
wanna come in here and feel guilty and if you all are all gonna give each other gay and we're can be sent her feeling guilty.
we're not gonna build conquers, we don't sit here and that ok and you know what they are
Thank god. Somebody said it out loud. We always were thinking the same thing. They weren't even
How can they were just glad to draw names because it gets just dom anyway right
find somebody. You see someone you see for five times a year, a gift, and they morning bought anything they really wanted, and so it goes on. A drawer arch through
no way or age up and seldom used kitchen items ban or whatever it is you now and so
it's it's far to be silly, really
yeah really are in most families. Not some families are unbelievably into it and
whatever that's fine, but
just have a conversation. Please don't put us in this position
and then I get my next question and when you get to the step of give wealth and get you know,
often gave her arm
listen work extremely wealthy and our kids, the rim
kids got together thanksgiving in
drew names as manufacturers. An app vulcan
to draw names.
Look. I found that the thanksgiving table this year as an app for that, of course, Rachel Mozart, an app for drawing named right and I think it's more fun anyways that way. No one's going. Well, he got three gifts and I got to his well worth more than ever
becomes a weird spirit to the whole, but I our kids can afford to give each other anything they want to give men and we can afford to give them any. They wanna give them it's ridiculous and we don't
we don't. I mean we, we just we give burger boy drew names and we're going to do that and you know now mimi's gonna know our philosophy. Is you know just spending time with each other, all the gifts you want, even if we were millionaires. It's like. I just know that. That's the point, that's the point where we do one gift in the spirit of gift giving for adults.
and all the little kids get gifts and it's fun to watch the little seven year olds gig if sets
that usually doesn't kill you, but it's just that the
the big thing here is the manipulation of the relationship process to where the
You ask them not to put you into this position and your power.
We find that somebody.
We'll go along and you may have to kind of draw a line ago. You know we're just not gonna be able to be here if you're going to put us in this position, because we just don't think that
and we will get within another time.
And we're not gonna sit here and watch all y'all, open gifts and we didn't buy them. That's just awkward as awkward as crud. That's just weird. I don't want to be, and I don't wanna be guilt
intentionally or unintentionally or in my own ear between my own ears or whatever it's it's a difficult time. You know the beauty georgia of this time of year. Is you get to see your family, the the bad thing? Is you get?
So your family, both and yeah- I mean our cousins sit around we're adults now and we just give each other a twenty five dollar gift card, and I get a twenty five dollar dirty santa stuff is a lot more fun. Yes, the gag gifts have fun with it steal from each other. More fun set a gift limit. I think that should be the new trend. This christmas, just tear into absolute. You know I mean oh my gosh,
but the way day myself to buy your gift, and I expect one returned george. The chance for me please guilty about this is really does the euro may be negative amounts and lincoln and think in favour pelt. Did you guys back to the beaver pounding down? You can make a hand out other george. This is the ramsay sham
the ramsey personality host of smart money happy hour at least co host with Rachel bruce, is my co host here today on the ramsey show in the lobby of ramsey solutions on the debt free stage David and
africa our weather's hey guys? How are you welcome
What are you guys live just ask
the local kentucky, oh go will welcome. Liberian nashville show here to do a dead, free scream. How much did you pay off about?
twenty thousand hours
how long that take twenty two months, good for you and your range of income in the two years about one ten to one fifty who we all do for a living.
Marshall truck driver and I'm a supervisor fur pharmacy operations, awesome good and what kind of debt
just one hundred and twenty thousand every
under cards student loans, cars,
medical bill, medical bills, personal loans, all of you
you're like normal superdome, normal shocks,
How will we ever married elevators?
the whole time. I won't you remarried. Five. Five live, ok, now
five years ago,
two years ago, something happened and gave a wake up, call tell us what happened, and you can start on this ramsay stuff well go on back
couple years before that twenty fifteen.
Was coming out of a very toxic marriage,
I was coming out of prison that a couple years in Indiana fur
drug addiction related stuff. So we were but
kind of starting over. We ve known each other since high school, but we can often on state connected so kind of came back together.
And after we got married.
Twenty. Sixteen. We really know it
do, we were living with family talk in a bank.
I was talking to people that knew their stuff. Everybody was telling us buy a house through this gotta build your credit, get credit cards. So that's what we did and they never said seventeen.
Guard was too many sat back radically ever gave in exactly the same style. They do said to do it, so we did. Then we did a lot of them
so then twenty nineteen we had bought a house. We we really should have been able to afford it
we were so so
in every other area that we ended up, sellen that move back in with family and then
is found ourselves really really broke and travel
figure out where to go from there and we found you this new.
I was supposed to be fun and man didn't turn out that way. So you
and us where
That would be me. I worked with a guy for awhile
winning calls friends. We ve just buddies at work.
and I remembered we had an open enrollment p had mentioned.
He didn't need any other urdu any the benefits,
work, he use andor and asked what Zander any said the day ramsay as what's that the financial guy too,
a half years later, tyler heartily. If you ever want to
two hours later, don't alliance triggered in my mind, but jumped back into their
so casually you just google it and find out here we go stove and found you here. Why gradually
I'm proud of you and I trusted bankers long enough. Let me trust, is dave, ramsey guy and see what he has to say after watching it for a little while he seemed like he knew what he was talking about, wow.
How much of a turnaround? Was it instant what you just went and I'm going to cut up all seventeen cards? What was this process like to get started? Kicking
and screaming. So without. On your end, I was on my part. I was very, very reluctant.
been in a toxic marriage, and I said you know from that point forward: I'm gonna be independently broke. I am
not going to be codependent on anyone else offer financial anything. So this was a control thing you're like no one's going to tell me how I'm going to live. My financial yep- and you know I thought this is just a fad. He is going to lose interest in this and then he introduced us to our lp tracy.
I see, ah who's been our biggest supporter, I'm keeping us on track, but I showed that very first meeting shall tell you I was like I don't wanna do this. I am not excited about this. This is not how I wanted to live my life, and but here we are
we never said a good attitude was required.
it's amazing, but you started doing this Stephanie. Oh, my gosh is actually worth what point did you flip
I'm being heels dog to running forward so
we're too. I actually started. Getting really in to advocate coleman. Show
had some questions about my career. He gave me some really great advice. Put myself in proximity of the people who could make things happen
two promotions within six months, but really
It would save what solidified it for me is. I don't know if you remember, but I we very publicly had a hiccup in our financial peace journey in february arms.
nine days before my son.
Was born? I went out and bought a van yup. That's
so we bought of hold you. I hope you are not. The only ones are determined on that. Now I've, not he called in February and gave her side of the story and I lost my dad got mine, but I remember now here and then I wrote an email the next day, which I didn't expect to get a response, but you responded and I think you called him at work by having george called us, both grown children tat. He did Tom humming baltimore Gaza and I don't remember the legendary apparel while encouraging response yeah, it's funny that you talk about the use of common because they were not friendly at all by it. For that. For me, that was the changing
You said there is some fear of air. You had said that we needed to recommend to our why you even suggested him coming off the road, and so we sat down. We had a meeting and we said
This is our why this is what we want to do and we're going to do it and we actually, I think it was made twenty twenty three was our projected date and we hit this november one
What turn them around they go into the room she would share. They get beat up you me and the u tubers youtube comments like it just destroyed and then
okay. Ok, I it was well deserved, who knew that inspiring. While we still have the banned by the way, because right out there off that's awesome,
What's the you realize world done, you very cool, may twenty twenty three, but you did it months and months earlier. What happened?
think it's fair to say before the Van, which was just comics
less for us communal.
Hating, even deeper. We were most learn at most
Sort of Davis there was there was some things we should cut out of the budget and things we could have done a little more intensely and after that, it it just
the intensity just laying down to it when you realise that, where all the nonsense completely out of the budget, we weren't a couple months, no plastic get off all cash, all envelopes,
you called out on marginal radio believe he can't hear me right has once we gave up the rash budget at its that's when things like you're really like knocked and out of the heart is that is neither eating at home is cheaper, dave, short Liddy one more time there is no more gosh. You guys were amazing, I'm so proud of you going alone, I'm sorry
together, which I am glad it worked out. We did it
love, we love you. We want you to win and we're glad your winning that's. All I did was there was a good needed motivation at the time for home gosh. What are you tell people the key to getting out of debt is now that you have done it everybody
as the budget because you have to
look at your numbers. If you're, not you just don't know what
look at her, which talked about so that, as I have to
being on the same page communication,
I know she would say having grace it is, and that's part of why we're here is because you know we had a hiccup. We had a really big setback. I bought a van when we were.
Five thousand from paying off the car that we had
and so having grace and understanding that
you're gonna mess up or you're gonna make mistakes throughout the journey, but it's not a reason to quit, while of good alike it good for
of well done well
hey we're gonna copy of the globe
and give box for you the bundle, and that includes the total money, make overbook the baby steps, millionaires, work and a one year. Membership to financial patient diversity used
things yourself or give them away to other people enjoy them? And I
so honoured to have you here, I'm glad that we get
I hear the other side of a woodshed story is the: where are they now the reneges? What's up? I have no recollection of this because I've done this stuff so many times in thirty years, but I'm sure five thousand calls since then so happy. Well I mean I'm, I'm I'm
I can't remember my name, but anyway well done all very, very, very proud of you good work and you brought the kiddos what are their names and ages? This is walker he's nine months and wyatt is twenty nine, alright cool, alright, one hundred twenty thousand paid off in twenty two months, making one ten to one, fifty plus your monitor, Van counted down, etc. Debt free scream three to one with the oh, my gosh, wonderful, well done the this is the ramsey show the
george global rooms, we personality, Michael
most open phones, a triple eight eight to five five, two to five tie ana is whether certain Evan spill indiana high tiara. How are you
hi dave, I'm well. How are you better than we deserve what's up in your world yeah? So
I do have a quick question:
I was wondering if we can afford to move up in house
and whether or not I should allow my mom, you lynette? Well, ok,.
So what is your payment now?
Well, our house payment is four. Fifty eight of pretty cheap
What's your take home pay
about sixty six hundred bring out
andy of other debts
Yes, we do have a car for fifteen kay
your car payments bigger than your house payment?
Actually it's two, eighty, oh
and what your household income now you should check you should
hundred your take home homepage for your household incomes louder. Graham, I
quite right. Now is at
around
eighty two eighty five k, but I received
in size from my daughters and that that's a fixed income, so
That's how much I again with no tax.
And so what we
we tell folks not to have a house payment is more than a fourth of their take home pay on a fifteen year fixed.
Show you haven't awesomely low house payment, so you just one
better house, why you want to move
our
Neighbourhood is a bit sketchy
it always has been, but we had a plan to pay off our house
very early. That's kind of why we moved in in the first place
however, a guy pretty dangerous. When, a month ago, someone across
street for mass got shot at and,
Oh, I don't. I no longer filled faith in them
burn hygiene, and on top of that, with my to disable daughter, one of them has a lot of equipment.
That requires a room for her.
We tabled a had they with her
So where are we just like? We need a bigger spaced, oliver,
was there when you moved in the right
for the shooting part.
Now my daughter is only for a month all oh and remove right right. We moved in a month before we found out, we were even threatened
what could you sell the house for
maybe eighty eighty one were Yonah seven days since barely get out right
so you get out, and then you move in your house by which no more than a fourth overtaken by this.
You do that. That's gonna be ok, the trick. Is you you're? You die
wanna get in a habit of, and it doesn't sound like you are that every time I want to get a bigger or everytime, my income goes up. I go get a bigger house because that just means you stay in debt. The rest of your life, so we want to have
that, but if you make this one move together
from a shooting gallery. And
and they get no more room for the unit for the equipment
everything then?
that doesn't sound out of line, and what do you want your mom to live with you
Whoa wish
my daughter's wine- has multiple appointment to leak that I can't really make now that my other daughter is basically
homebound- and I have to be
turn literally twenty four seven. I can't even walk
outside without having at least another person with me in case of emergency, though there
we too people who I am having train and her care, which is my husband and my mom, and my husband works very long hours during the day, though it would be
The huge help is she
was there to help? Take care
My daughter with me.
And your mom doesn't own anything. She just gonna move into your house and out
with care.
Only downside is that some day
situation, is going to change.
and you're gonna be some undoing of that? As long as you don't say, this is for ever and ever until you MA am.
look. I did it for the rest of my life now and they were the shore during the season
I don't mean. That sounds like a wonderful thing in your mom's able and willing to do that and
but you ve got a pretty strenuous situation ghetto
the caviar sing hears. If you sell this house and you get zero dollars, you might need to pause and save up to have some
down the next house, and maybe
office car and you no kind of solving
situation. So how wondering could you
somewhere, you a good income. Sixty six hundred, could you rent for a little while my boy, you couldn't get even foundation your or to clean up the car dead and then build up a goddamn.
I am at your right, like an evident, but thou give me a little more financial peace. Stepping into this situation,
Alan leg at probably a wise suggestion, writer something to follow
austrians weathers often is in wisconsin. I often welcomed the ram she show
What are you guys doing today? Great? How can we help so,
I am not a twenty eight year old guy in college and I just got home from the jewelry store purchasing an engagement ring for hopefully my drift once it yeah go yeah. Thank you very much, so
Obviously I am a huge fan of a day.
that everything is now follow them to achieve
However, when talking with her about it, she has one asterisk that she wants to be, and I want to know if this is something I should you know, gray's a secret ballot or if this is kind of something I should just like.
The wayside not is also about the biggest to right. Now I'm on my way
school in everything and
My question is: should we put twenty
into were time at once. We get a baby boy, that's her ashraf, or should I spite about it and make sure that its fifteen, because I really want It-
of the house as soon as we can, but she's no more
at the numbers in thinking that we're going to lose out, a lot of you know like growth and growth and growth at the time, and everything like that,
So what is her net worth?.
Her not worth right now is probably upwards of fifty thousand months. Not now I
I completely agree that trick me if she is so concerned about the power of compound interest. Why would she go into debt in the first place? They do the same
the question? John? That's a smart aleck answer Ashton to say you know
if you use your best ideas and your best ideas have gotten. You know where your problem
should you someone else's best ideas. I got that
My opinion is well down in that's, that's not!
when he percent versus fifteen percent thing
a caviar and an asterisk thing: that's a full!
sophie of life thing and so
it's kind of like saying you know I just hard
personal trainer here
as an aid pack- and I have a keg
and I'm gonna do everything he says
But this one thing
You can do that. You can do that, but
don't be arrogant enough to say it's because you're smarter than the guy with the apec, when you have a keg and then don't blame him when you don't have the apec, as you didn't, follow the plan he set out exactly. Does that mean,
he's got he's, got the plan
get you to where he is and he's got proof standing in front of you that it works now,
You can adjust his plan if you want, but it's too your
parry.
tim, some millions, literally ten
Of millions of people have followed these baby steps, show it
really honestly, it doesn't matter the ten percent to twenty percent, all it on my. What matters is this idea that than that.
I'm gonna question my personal trainer who's got a track record and that that that's that's the important part of the question. It's not that this
the new of it did, guy
ordain. Fifth, no, he didn't
but the point
it and it's just that the stuff we teach works, and so why would you screw with it that that's the way it ain't broke? Don't fix it yeah, but you know what let's enjoy being engaged and having a lot of fun and plan the marriage and, let's learn to take advice from people who are ahead of us on the journey. Whichever journey, that is whether it's parenting or marriage or career money, that puts us our the ramsey show in the books, the do you love a good day. Brands want to see the latest ramsey show videos going viral check out your favorite moments from the ramsay show on youtube, go watch and subscribe to the ramsey show channel and the hey it's james producer of the ramsay show. This episode is over but check the epic.
notes for links to products and services you heard about during this episode, thanks for listening,
Transcript generated on 2023-06-07.