The I'm David brown- and this is business. Wars, the the the. In case you haven't, noticed a eyes having a moment, maybe more than a moment, after weathering a so called a I winter in years of upheaval, artificial intelligence is now everywhere with billions of dollars of venture capital pouring into build the next big thing, this

I didn't mean our world is turning into blade runner going the route of idiocracy, or does it brando's got what plants crave? It's got electrolytes so remember that what you're saying is that you want us to put water the crops. Yes, we'll explain that when later, but the advancement of a I has a lot of folks asking questions about the future. What about six, already and ethics is a I it is too big to fast here to help explore. Some of these matters are might calorie and lauren good MIKE is senior editor at wired. The online tech magazine Lauren his senior writer at wired, the pair all who co host wired gadget, lab podcast, where they explore the Section of tech and culture, and today they'll share some the coolest and perhaps scariest uses of a high that they ve seen and help us make sense. If we're all this is going plus will get whether some of our favorite movies have accurately predicted life and an a world come to mind. Stay too,

because all that's coming up next business is brought to you by volkswagen, making this which to an electric vehicles can be scary me. It's tough ripen, as part of the lure of ease is how to filled. They are sometimes they can feel overly futuristic and, let's face it, a little intimidating volkswagen saw this and decided to build inaccessible av, the all electric, swag an idea for it has the look and feel traditional ass, you ve, so it doesn't feel like a spaceship and it features thirty plus cubic feet of cargo base and available all we'll drive. Volkswagen was focused on getting the little things right in order to enhance and simplify you're driving experience with volkswagen you're transition to an easy will be intuitive and joyful visit, be com to learn more, the all electric books, where and I d for it's a little things. It's a bee w is that the new life

Fifteen pro oh yeah, it's me titanium and the pro camera is epic. Just got it a t mobile. Yeah and I got there go five d next plan. So now I have the freedom to upgrade my phone. Every year I gotta to get to t mobile, take charge of your upgrades that t mobile dot com photo via twenty four monthly bill credits plus tax for well qualified customers, contact us before cancelling account to continue bill credits or credit. Stopping balance on required finance agree with you when your upgrade requires financing qualifying device and operating in good condition after six months will have paid off the glory. Lauren good. Welcome back to business wars, thanks for having us yeah we're really excited The last time we had you on our show in february, chat g p t had just come out. We actually asked the bot itself to be our interview guest, but it had another commitment, of course, Only kidding has

chat. Jpg high died down since its launch deal. They I mean, I remember you even had it right and intro for gadget. Lab is a test of how did listeners react to that? No, if we got any solid feedback from our listeners on that particular stunt, but I can say that we ve seen huge growth in the industry since the last time we talked about it to me. curious of chad, djibouti, open ay. I have just been gathering steam. They ve also been inspiring a lot of new growth in that space in the space of not only chat botz but generative ay, I there just dozens and dozens of companies popping up we're hearing about more uses for chat she bt expanding into enterprise and into consumer products. Yeah. It's just straight up, so one thing I have noticed is a lot of other people tried to imitate what you did at gadget lab. You know with the with the ai writing the script and aw guess what

but I'm wondering what other ways you guys you're, seeing a pop up right now and in the products and services you both cover wired laurent, are you that we're not super hashtag, innovative, No, actually, I'm not David dodo. Thank you all have you all or y'all are forging the way forward has used that gimmick. No, no, no fair enough. Well, I mean one of the things that we've been talking about it wired for a really long time now, and not just since the introduction of chat gb t is that ai has been popping up in our products for a very long time. There were. You know, of course, a lot of advancements first made in artificial intelligence starting around Nineteen fifties and then implementations of it and very very specific, very nerdy computer programmes for the next five to six decades, but are united.

that really around the time the smartphone was introduced in our lives and applications that could utilise machine learning techniques thats really when things started to change right the whole I o t, trend or internet of things. Trend has been a part of this too so you know the idea behind the consumer's asian away. I is that everything from facebook or a yelp to the maps up on your phone to language translation, opts to your alexa, smart speaker to even this stability systems. Cruise control in your car is using some form of computerized intelligence to crunch tons of data and then predict what you'll want to or need to do next, and that is all I mean that's all ai and eggs. think, that's a really important point, which brings us do why people seem to be so far stated on it right now why this seems to be a kind of excess central moment for humanity to some wire folks dare I say, freaking out about a I right now. Well I mean

and machine learning earlier, which is a very specific type of vertical le they. I, I think what we ve seen more recently as the introduction of applications that are using what you ve, probably heard a lot of l, l, l, em, right or alarms law. language models, which is a specific type of ay. I model that has been trained on vast amounts of data and uses deep learning techniques to perform a variety of natural language processing tasks, and so these models are able to scrape all of this information from the internet and then generate something that feels very human like, and so I think that is what the latest element. Is that has people a little bit freaked out about? We can't really tell the robot from the real person. Is that what you're suggesting yet? it's it's getting closer to that closer, but

have a cigar. I know I've seen a lot of images that ITALY strike me as while interest and beautiful. There is often something surreal about the image that Canada tipped off to the fact that maybe this was computer. read it and, of course, has been a lot more said and written about how chat she be. He gives you sort of vanilla, version of its answer, a response to a query quite often and often gets things wrong. How close are we to the imminent take over of of a high? Might jpg We want to ensure that when I think, if you're talking about the take over I and the creative industry, like in writing and in making images and in making videos were probably a lot.

sir than we are in other industries hum yes, when you plug in a prompt, and you ask it to create like a script for a tv show or yes to write a short worry, or maybe a show you a video of butterflies on a mountain side going to give you something that is close enough, where you look at it and the person who's reading it or the person who's. Looking at it will be able to tell you what you asked it to produce right and that's really the we knew that something that we were not really able to do even a year ago, and I think that the way that these things are accelerating and as the technology continues to improve you're going to see those results get more.

or acceptable or more realistic. It will quickly if it hasn't already reach a point where the results will be basically undistinguishable from something that a human can create themselves, and I think that's just more passable when you're talking about fiction or you're talking about a television show or entertainment right, it's something that's a little bit more digestible. If it's a I create if it's there is not a human hand behind it. It's when you get to things like the nightly news or your morning, newspaper where ino absolute correct fact is required that the dicey nests of the outputs from chad, botz and from a generative ay I systems can be more detectable or they can be a problem, I well what about some of the cool ways that you ve seen a I'd be put into into you so far it has there been a wow for either of you. I had a moment back in march when I, two and a film festival here in san francisco,

at the alamo drafthouse, and this and this generative ai company called runway had hosted it and they were enticing filmmakers. Many of them, you know budding or unknown filmmakers to use these image generation tools to make or augment films. One of the filmmakers. I'm taking a bunch of his childhood photos, putting them into one of these a I image generation tools and asking the eye to augment the photos. Then he showed those photos to his father and recorded his father's reactions and use that as the soundtrack to this in the film and seeing what a day I did to his childhood memories, I think was really was really kind of shocking to him and in some cases you can sort of tell that the images had been distorted because the image you're looking at is just really wholly unnatural in some way

and other times you're, just like. Oh yeah sure there was a puppy there right because I, as you don't know the difference, but he would know the difference that major they didn't have six puppies in the bathtub or whatever the image was I thought that was really really creative and really fascinating and it didn't. I wrote a whole story about whatever wired about what that what generative eyes wasted due to our future memories? You don't six poppies in about tab raises the question: have you come across any of the scary uses of a high for

I would say that the scariest thing is disinformation and misinformation. People using a I to generate images that look very lifelike of people who we all recognise doing things that they didn't actually do mean. Obviously we ve got elections happening in this country. We ve got elections happening and other markets around the world where disinformation can spread very quickly and very easily, and that to me is very scarce and one of the things I think that scariest about the technology is the rate of acceleration and how quickly the average person can use it to make something like that, like there there's always been some form of misinformation or even propaganda, that's being spread to get a certain message across re to the public, but when you

about that. The nancy pelosi video that has now fairly well known of where her speech was being slurred, and so she was, you know me to appear intoxicated in some way that wasn't generative ay, I that was just creative editing where her speech was slowed down, so think about that, but think about now. You could theoretically recreate entirely a video like that and do it in minutes, even if you don't have any particular skill set around video editing and that's the part. I think that or are rightfully alarmed up about while ai is obviously a big concern in hollywood right now, and it's a big part of why both the actors and the writers are striking. from where you all set. What is at the heart of the strike when it comes to turns over a technology. This is a really important topic, I think, and very timely, so the hollywood strike is over traditional disputes, like wages and benefits.

Job reactions, but the fight over. I is getting a lot of attention and I think it's because it feels like the cat is already out of the bag. Right, I mean a. I is already completely infiltrated moviemaking, whether that's in terms of sea gee, I or recreating the image and likeness of someone who has died before a movie was completed or to de age actors, as part of storytelling and even you dont netflix, is infamous recommendation algorithm. That's all ay! I right it's taking these troves of existing data and creating something totally anew with them. So I think that new actors and writers are right to be a little bit nervous right now about this new age of ay. I And, basically you know the actors are nervous, because they're saying that the studios position right now is that the studios want to be able to scan. peters images your pay them for her today's work and then create totally new imagery from those database images without informed consent.

Now the alliance of motion picture and television producers, which represents the studios, another employers in hollywood, they say He died. You know they have presented in a proposal that protects performers, digital likeness, I'm including requirement for consent, but there is there just at a total stalemate over this, The writers, guilds, guenaud, they're, nervous too, because they want to draw a line on credits. They may be ok with using I to potentially help shape stories, but they do not want to affect the credits that are essential to you know their pay and their prestige as as writers. So there are a lot of different points around this, and I am particular that I think are being worked out. The were seeing the results of that. We are seeing this historic strike happening. You know this is a situation where there are human beings have been doing a task for a generation.

Who are now standing up to prevent their jobs, are being taken away by computers. That is, that is literally what is happening. and not only just their jobs taken away, but also you know their sort of pride of the work that they do like hey, you know, make very good stories. The actors are very good at telling stories with their bodies and with their face. And when you make a computer, do that it just makes the work feel less human and they don't want to see the work go down and quality My caloric is senior editor at wired, lauren, good senior writer, it wired we're gonna, be explore what the scientists, investors and billionaires are saying about a high. When we come back stay with us, we get support from air b, b. I recently stated in air being be on a trip for work, and I liked it so much as scheduled. whole family vacation

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no, the entertainment industry, not only one, with a bound pick over I right now. Artists are actually suing some of the ai art generators, claiming that they violate cop right when referencing their works. I guess this begs the question: how, to this stuff is even legal yeah. I know you two aren't lawyers, but I imagine this has been pretty interesting to cover. No, it's. probably illegal, you know in theirs the case to be made that an eia generated, image that is produced by machine there's been. And on the product of a certain artist could be considered a derivative work. But if you think about it, it's also sort of the same thing: the humor do like. If you are an abstract expression, is painter and you spent your entire life studying abstract expressionism and you ve gone to all the museums, and you seen hundreds and thousands of abstract expression.

Art? Then you are going to create something that is sort of along the lines of the things that you have seen, which is how an ai of visual ai eyes trained. You showed a bunch of images and then it just repeats the patterns that it sees in those images. But I think that big difference here is that those I training systems are feeding millions of images in minutes who the hell they're going through these training browsers is very, very quickly. It's not a lifetime of studying this in thinking about it. It's just you know a big bunch of data being chewed up and then spit out by computer. So what you get is what you put in, and I think the people who are having their stuff put in do have a case saying that its derivative work, I have you, heard any of the songs that have been created by a either supposed to emulate, say an artist we're deceased. I think there was a michael

jackson song, but got some steam, and I wondered to myself: ok disease have artistic merit or not these it is it something that people would actually listen to. We talked about this and the wired haven't ice future podcast, which is my other podcast so, and we even talked about this with the this crimes but make I don't hear hole and some of these because mike is a musician who is in three bands outside of his work at wire. Has some opinions about this, so I do think that these things have a point and I do think they have artistic mary I might be alone in this opinion, but I think that the artist who sits down in front of a computer and uses these tools to create a song. is doing so using like some skill as songwriter right? They can make something that actually sounds good and his catchy and then they can play for other people

the problem comes. When you marry that with something like commerce or a social media platform seeking attention were the persons like hey I made this song sounds just like tell us. Isn't that amazing and then they try to monetize that then are you gonna do some sketchy territory around? Is this actually ripping off the work of the artist that you're trying? What'd. I like, though, how grime seems to be owning this and in a way no, I mean sort of outsourcing her eye likeness, so the fans can the wrong grime songs an interesting waiter. Two approaches yeah, it's real. If you can't beat em join him, the approach causing doorway and if we obviously have no idea how that's going to work out, but one of the things that grimes pointed out in the conversation is that it still does require skill a little bit.

mike's point right, even if it is electronic or their using synthesizers or whatever. That might be so computer, aided by not totally computer generated yards in ways and extension of remix culture, which has been around for fifty or sixty years. You know so. Artists have been offering these things to the creative community for a while. Now the tools are different and tools more evolved and people can do more with them. Ah well, you know as much as a eyes accelerating itself. There's a ton of money going into this industry and in the green, is certainly an accelerant tubman billions and billions of dollars here, and I wonder MIKE. How real is this fear that a I might be getting too big to fast to quickly? I love this question because I always joke it. It's a real privilege to be able to cover the tech industry in its pivot to chat bought era. Is it so much money, and so much attention being

poured into these tools, and I dont know if we're necessarily in danger of getting too big to quickly. But one thing: that we are in danger of is falling prey to the hype. There are such tremendous hype about how all of these tools are going to change. Oliver lives forever immediately, and that's just not true like it, it's going to change our lives a little bit, maybe at some point in the future. But there is a lot of big talk around it because people europe, they really want investors money and they really want you to think that their changing the world. So I think that's it. You're gonna have to pierce the bubble and look behind the veil. How many different euphemisms can I use your hearts? Activity could generate any light up. Yet albert, wouldn't let me play got it so is is there a solution? Are we going to have to turn to chat jpg for that one to where the

hard rails, whose creating the guard rails. I would say regulation except for the fact that are Legislative bodies are maybe not as well schooled in how these things work and how they should regulated and I think, to really deeply understand both the technology and the market forces behind it. If you're going to regulate an industry in the evidence that I've seen about how they talk about chachi pt and how they talk about personal data, I'm I'm not convinced that we're going to be able to successfully regulate the industry. So I would say that probably is a great solution. Is education, the more people that learn about this and the more people that study it and learn how it works and what it's capable of the better, also keep it out of the hands of people who would do bad? But I dunno how you do that? Yeah good luck with that yeah, because

I dont necessarily think that we can rely on these companies in the private sector to regulate themselves. We know that open. I has been making the rounds literally around the world to speak with government leaders and propose regulatory frameworks free. I and the ideas. Look. We want to be a part of his conversation in some ways we think we can self regulate like we know what's best here, Just recently the Washington post ran article about how open I had said it was going to ban political campaigns from using chat, PD to generate political messaging and then bam edo, that the Washington post reporter was able to test it out, and there was chachi pd talking about how to convince suburban women. Or forties to vote for trump, so I ido open a I was unable to regulate itself in the way that it had promised. We tend to find so far that they are not able to adhere to these. These promises of you know: content moderation and self regulation

yeah yeah is so what should the everyday consumer? How can the everyday person now in a world where I can generate more stories, adds images yeah. I think it's the same advice that we would give anybody who is uncertain of what they would see, regardless of whether it was generated by a r or a generated by a human being, which is that verify it with a trusted source? You know if you have good news sources that rely on and if you listen to what the scientists and the researchers are When you about how misinformation is generated in how it spreads, then you become you, you develop a news literacy for this new era that allows you to You read and watch things with the appropriate amount of scepticism and knowledge. I do think sticking to journalism brands that you trust can be really helpful and a time like this, whether that's why

here, whether that's the new yorker, whatever your preferred publication, is give them a try during this election season, instead of maybe just getting your news from instagram, which can also be a great source of news, because some brands, like I think of the Bloomberg quick, take videos, though pretty clever and there really informative like little, do a great job on instagram of that too, but but go to your trusted sources. Be as there is a lot of information out there, and some of it is not coming from very credible places. This really solid advice You don't thinking that a level listeners may be imagined that they have heard or seen somewhere before. All of these kids are a lot of these concerns we ve been talking about when it comes to a high, and maybe there right, Maybe they saw it at the theatre, can movies the future of ai. Did they when we come back Taking that up, you listening to business wars stay with us.

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wash one dre. a what back to business wars, our guests are Michael caloric and lauren good of wired. Who also happens to be, as I understand it, pretty big movie buffs to something that struck me about a I just how prevalent it's been in pop culture. You know what role do you think films He d have played in the public perception of of a I. Ah, ah, I have one sentence for you open. pod bay doors, how open the pirate bay doors? I'm sorry do I'm afraid I can't do that. I can't do that. Many times have I heard that in my life,

so obviously referencing two thousand and one kubrick, sir space odyssey yeah. I think that's my one might say that it is so my favorite thing about The role of a I and two thousand want a space odyssey. Is that its evil right it? It makes a decision to cancel the humans, because the humans are threatening to cancel the mission and it wants to complete the mission and it can do without them, so it kills everybody on board. Sorry, I anybody has not seen this movie. That's been arrest, boiler, learners hat. Will there But you know it's: it was one of those first films that came along that oppose that question my can. We trust computers, computers at the time the movie came out, which was the late nineteenth sixties, computers were being used for a lot more things, all of a sudden and we were sending astronauts up into space and a lot of the computer controls were untested at that point in the sky,

program. So there is a lot of anxiety around space travel and around the use of computers and the movie really captured it. I think it's difficult for us to look at that movie now in that context, because computers control so much more, but it still the core of it, which is that the computer at some point could decide to make a cold rational decision that goes against good human morals. That is something We can all think very hard about right now. There have been a lot of movies. That kind of rift on the same theme didn't alien kind. Pick up on this a little bit or am I miss remembering no you're? U remembering exactly right! Well, I remember from that movie as an alien, just bursting out of suborning weavers stomach. and for life. So the alien, never bursted out of security, weaver stomach didn't know in the first movie was John hurt. It burst out of his stomach. Oh really, yeah! Oh really, yeah!

in the first alien movie, the alien like boards, the ship and its wreaking havoc on the ship and the the ai on the ship, the android, decides that it would. You know the mission would be more successful if it was able to return the ship back to earth with the being on the ship. So it turns against the humans in that movie as well so yeah another another one in space where the computer is making bad decisions, it kills everybody. You know we need to talk about one of the most metal pieces of content out there right now at the most recent season of netflix black mirror featured an episode called joan is awful lauren if I understand you ve seen it, can you explain the premise here, sir? So Joan is a character played by the actor anymore. be she's a middle manager with I should note kind of a bad die job. She's cut businesslike, really pronounced blonde

some hair on what is otherwise a dark head of hair, which is notable later on, but she is essentially an average citizen, but in the episode there's this streaming service that looks and sounds a lot like netflix. It's called stream berry and it releases a new programme that is essentially a by play of this woman and jones life, and she recognizes herself right away because the character in the thumb nail on the stream very up has the same bright blonde street in the front of her hair and is wearing the same green suit. That shown war to work that day so real. If joan watches in horror, as the you know, the fake joan on the tv screen, who is played by salma hayek reenacts her days and like essentially kind of ruins, her life and then it turns out that you know everyone has a joan, is awful like series coming about them. Like the netflix like service, called stream stream, barry

actually able to execute on this because they're using a quantum computer and I and they pull in these signals from oliver devices and they construct a new narrow. About our lives the very same day and then put it up on a streaming platform and war things worth noting too? Is that in a stream bury in the episode is not using the famous actors themselves, their using their arrival likeness that's a plot point as well. The fact that I am standing here right now means that source joan already said here in reality, so it doesn't matter what I want, and it has been that this is based on- have already happened, what a lovely bedtime story. So when we talk about custom content. Is this really weird? Maybe eyes is going more immediately? I mean, most importantly, everyone gets her own content. What what does that mean for the recommendation section of gadget lap how can recommend tv when it's only made for you, then I mean that's exactly right when I think about the jonas, awful episode

in particular it is like personalization to the millionth degree, because what we ve been promised by some of these ay I systems over the past decade, or so I would say, is this idea that all the algorithms are working on behalf of us to serve us more personalized photos that we want to see in our memories, albums or personalize? You know reminders on our social media feeds are even like hade ino. You liked these pants, maybe you'd like these pants, two or maybe you'd want to watch show next the idea of being able to take you to use quantum computing and artificial intelligence to take. What I might do, or mike might do on a daily basis and then same day create a custom made television show about our lives and stream it for us that night is really dark its. It is, in fact very anxiety inducing year. You know another? I film blade runner where the lines

when humans and machine start to blur right, that's another sort of trope, but it doesn't feel like it rope any more for some reason. It actually feels like it. It's upon us robots are taking whom for me, and are they not to utter a beard? Knowledge, I hope, is negative. I mean you, man, I'd robots like an ex machina. So that's true that so do you that we're there. Now I mean- or we are there on that on that precipice is this: what are we approaching blade runner? Ah, I don't think so, not right now, maybe in thirty years or forty years or three years or three

ash yeah well Lauren. I understand you're a fan of of films, a few films where it were sorta like in blade runner people start to develop feelings for ai, or vice versa, things they always gotten away. Well. For me, the movie her really comes to mind and a lot of ways that film expressions it came out ten years ago was directed by spike jones. It starred joaquin, phoenix and scarlett johansson, and the premise is that this man, who is still heartbroken by his divorce, becomes very emotionally attached to this ai operating system named samantha, and then you know he walks around wearing these little these little buds in his ear having a conversation with the samantha a wise, but it looks like he's kind of walking around talking to himself and this museum years before airports, which is what we all do now

oh, and at the time you know we, we probably looked at this character and the way he was acting and some of his af act, and we were like oh gosh. That sounds like that looks so dystopian, and this is like what we are. Do now- and we talk to you- I, as you know, we talk to her voice assistance, that sort of thing, but the, but this when it is actually quite intelligent and then eventually said the samantha. O s becomes obsolete right. She starts she stopped getting up there She starts fading out and he is in some ways just as heartbroken when that happens. But at that point he's ready to reengage with the the real worlds and, and that movie makes me think a lot about the ways in which we use technology as a bridge between our real life experiences and how it does feel emotional in many ways. saving were yeah I'd mike. I have to raise something with you. I know that we have something in common, and that is a love of a certain two thousand I film called idiosyncrasy right sure the premise

Briefly for those who haven't seen it. Ok, inaccuracy starring old friend, Luke Wilson and my rude off luke, also good, I'm running a play at my head now, and it's just so funny. Luke wilson plays a very average guy in the: u s military and he is volunteered for an experiment where he and my rudolf, who is sex worker in the film get frozen and they're gonna wait. I'm up in a year and they're going.

See if this new, like cryogenic preservation system, that the military has come up with works as soon as they go under the project gets abandoned and they end up sleeping for five hundred years when they wake up. Society has devolved to the point where everybody who is smart has decided to not have children and everybody who is less smart, has been reproducing an accelerated rate and society kind of crumbles and and up waking up in this world. That looks like a sort of a hyper commercialized, very dumbed, down version of our world filled with trash filled with bad food filled with crazy inflation, and they are the smartest people on earth. The boy talk about your disturbing nightmares. Let's hear a clear, I think we heard part of this in our intro as well, but it's just so ready. I gathered round

their water with a sports during like I was a little surprised that brando wouldn't do the trick on the year on the greenery there only its crew crave. That's what I hear Obviously this is a satire, but like may be, how far off is it? I mean I ask that sort. I can't say that earnestly and yet, when you, when you watch the movie einer knowledge you, you just start to get the feeling that may we're closer than even we realise yes, really. Good. Satire is really good because it cuts very close to the truth. So The thing about this movie that really makes me feel like we may be headed there is that we do rely on mass media and computers around us to make a lot of decisions for us for I, so when spotify starts Many obvious to me that I know I don't like and

I turn on the television and showing me shows that I think are terrible and, unlike who watches this, who listens to this, you know, and my twitter feed is filled with new stories they're just ridiculous. I feel like I'm living in a democracy, so we been hitting us over the darker places, a I might go, but a be funding, and on a lighter note, I wonder if I could ask use or wild card question, What are you individually hopeful for that a I can accomplish, maybe something you wish. I could do for you personally judgment. Lauren will start with you say honestly, if I could help me manage, like my scheduling and my email inbox little bit better. That would be great. I would welcome that and abroad.

Level I would love to see- and this is something we track at wired- to eat, no more advancements in health care through I and the ability for people to get more accurate or better faster diagnoses or treatments. This is like a real pie in the sky stuff, but make it more accessible to people who don't have good access to health care. I think that that would be incredible. That would be of my hopes ray I MIKE top of your hopeless wish list. I would love it if I could Train and I'd buy concert tickets. For me now, a year now D, I was, I spent an hour on ticketmaster trying to get these two and nothing just it was impossible. You got to say taylor, swift, I was not you were. I was I been there, David death there So you're thinking you thinking this could help you get past. The ticketmaster well might be

Our at least just sought I to waste my time you know. With a jaw like to give recommendations on your podcast gadget lab, but before we let you go what about some predictions here? Ai has risen. What's our world looking like ten years from now, you're, twenty thirty, three rubber, taxis, railroad taxes, I've taken to rise and he's totally driver free, rubber taxis, and I am I'm kind of blown away yeah. It's it's tough to really explain unless you live in a city where they're testing- and you know right now- they're testing in some pretty big cities. San Francisco is one los angeles, austin Texas. If you come to these cities, you will see literally dozens of them If you walk around for an hour just cars with steering wheels with nobody in them. You know, eventually, in the next couple of years, they're going to be replaced by basically large auto.

miss minivans with no steering wheel, no driver's seat but to bench seats one in the front one in the back that face each other with a you know, sort of a table in the middle, so you can sit and have a conversation with four or five. As your friends You travel from point a to point b, so it's very early days, but they do have the potential to make travelling around on our roads in a car. Much more pleasurable, we ve been talking Michael lorry senior editor at wired, nor and good senor writer at wired. They also co host wired gadget lab podcast available wherever fine podcast, your served. I ike Lauren thanks so much for joining us for business wars. Great to have you, of course, thank you. from wondering. This is episode four of the rise of a sigh for business wars. I'm here. david brown, Kelly kyle produced this episode. Our interview episode producer is peter or cooling

Karen low is our senior producer and editor and it didn't use by emily frost, sound design kyle randal, additional audio assistance by sergio enricos If shilling is our producer, our senior managing producer is ryan. Lore Matt gantt is our managing producer. Our executive producers are jenny, lauer, beckmann and martial louis or wonder. The. This guy rise and each week my podcast, the great creators

conversations about creativity with some of the most celebrated actors, musicians and performers of our time in our newest season, you'll hear from Kelly clarkson on some life changing advice. She took to heart from someone she calls literally the most unlikable human on the planet. I was so hard on myself ten years into my career of like being like man, if you're going to judge yourself like this, like each time, you're on stage you're going to be miserable and legendary producer mark ronson shares his experience, working with the great amy winehouse and she just came in the next day and she dug it and she said yeah. This is what I want my helmet to sound, like you'll, hear incredible stories from performers about their successes, the biggest lessons they learned along the way and what advice? they would share so that you can get inspired and become a more. Inventive and imaginative. You follow the great creators on the wondering at or wherever you get your PA guests. You can listen to ray creators pearly and ad free right now on one replace