Some people say we not we need to fight is dirty, is the left? Are we're gonna lose? I don't agree with that. We want to fight is dirty, but we have to fight as aggressively and as relentlessly so here we are in the sunday special with David limber, author of Jesus is risen, which, if true, is bad news for me, we're getting out of hand in just like a second, but first, let's talk about your time in the grave you know occupying that. Basement condo life insurance is a deeply unfair topic. Most people don't like thinking about dying cause. It's depressing factually dont. thinking about life insurance either, but having life insurance feels great. If you can applaud you may as well, not your family, bereft and getting that peace of mind doesn't need to be complicated policy genius is the easy way to get life insurance. In minutes you can compare quotes from top insurers to find the coverage you need at a price you can afford from there. You can apply on the and the unbiased advisers at policy genius, will handle all the red tape for you. The leave you free to do the things you actually enjoy, like you know, not nine and policy genius doesn't just make,

insurance easy, whether you're shopping for mobility insurance to protect your income or homeowners insurance or otto insurance. They cannot be covered fast if you ve been intimidated frustrated by insurance in the past. Give policy genius to try just go to policy genius dot com to get your quotes, in minutes into the whole thing on your phone right now, in fact, you probably show just hit pause, gotta policy genius dotcom, get that life into it right now. There is no reason for you to die and leave her family without any money at all. Go to the responsible thing policy genius, the easy way to compare and by life insurance? Will David limber? Thank you for coming. I really appreciate it. Thanks for helping me, provokes who don't know, and this means nobody knows, because I've been told the story before the way that I got started in political commentary was the least partially, due to David limber, who I met for the first time in person today, so we ve been talking and corresponding afore legitimately seventeen years, and this is the first, we ve ever met in person actually so the way that this started.

Is I was writing a column for these daily paper. I applied to creator syndicate, which was yours indicator for your column and I applied cold and they picked and then I had to get blurbs for the columns who could send it off out various newspapers and I do you out of the blue, just random care I can you give me a blurb for my column, you kindly said she, and then he said, and also, if you decide to write a book on college campuses, then I would be happy to radiation, for and I thought okay. Well, then, I should probably go ahead and do that and then I wrote brainwashed. So we have been friends for seventeen years now and it's pretty amazing. It took us this long to actually meet in person. He is, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but tell us the story of how we met that's a more specific than I remember, but that's exactly right and I dont ever actually engaging in solicitation for your legal business, but I

about an hour by hour, but I did. I did want to encourage you to write it amazing prodigy, in what is always amazed me too, about you is that you didn't take off in an explosive way until maybe what the last year to five years, maybe less five, five, my rosy, maybe the peers morgan thing- was the carryings athlete halfway through yeah. That's how fast time goes, but I voice haven't. I always told you that is going to happen. We need is many times and so on. I, I loved, and I don't take any credit for it at all. But I just love having been present as as this thing should take some credit for, because David is one of the people who, when I felt crying, because I wasn't

wait progressing at the speed at which I was hoping to David will. You are always one of the people who are who is telling me that stick with it, everything's gonna be okay, people will eventually come around and our neutral frame, Ann coulter, wanted to get you on the supreme court. I had a different path for you, okay, so let's talk about ways that the church and synagogue have they screwed up, and if you look at religious, observe observation in the country, it's been markedly declining since the nineteen fifties, the number of people who are films did with an official religion is, is much were now than it used to be. People say that they are spiritual, but not religious, which is the most empty phrase that I can also, I think I'll have. So it's like you get to you get to say that you believe in god, without actually having to do anything about. But it's you Maybe there are three problems through various approaches have been taken, all have which have the problems approach. Number one is the approach that that you mentioned, which is the let's have pizza and a guitar and come to church for the pizza, guitar. We want our politics at all, we'll never threatened anything. They think about life. This seems

to me the direction which a lot of churches have gone thinking. This is gonna drawn young people. Young people don't want that young people want no values. They want to know why they're here and not an movie right now. They want to know what it is that makes church special, what it is about our three thousand year: history and judaism, and two thousand year, history and christianity. That makes it worthwhile if your sunday morning when you could be out playing video games. What do you think that you know the churches are doing a good enough job of of leaving behind that sort of soft approach? I I just. I think that too many of them are falling into this in an attempt to fill the pews and in short order without actually getting to the root of the mountain yeah, and I agree- and it worries me that you, for example, have a pastor or preacher has got to be willing to talk about sin in the pot from the pulpit, if he's afraid to turn people off, then he's doing this service. Now I don't think I don't want pastors to inject politics overtly. I want them to advocate values that are consistent with.

the bible and that may be consistent with conservative political values, but not do it in a political or partisan way, and I don't mean to do it furtively. I just mean preach the bible and preach christian values, but some of them are afraid and they stay away from these issues. I will ice visited one church where the pastor said right after trump, one we're going to pray for the people who here who were in favour of trouble- and I was so turned off by that, because what about the day ever say that about obama? And I here's the thing I dont want pastors to be political conservatives or political liberals. I wanted them to leave, leave all that out in preach. The gospel preach the bible, but some of them are afraid to do that, and even if they do get people in the door, I think ultimately they're not going to keep them in the way that they want to keep them because they're not going to fill them with.

They need. So I think that we agree on a problem number one problem or too is. You mentioned a little bit earlier, which is a feeling that you get from a lot of people who don't have a lot of familiarity with the church, or maybe they do with the wrong churches. When they're, when they're young, this feeling of incipient theocracy, that you know the folksy thing mike pence is going to reinstitute the handmaid's tale because he's a religious person and they think back if they're used when they had a priest or a pastor or rabbi, who used to feel very oppressive, and I think it's important for religious communities to point out. Look we're here to help guide you and provide you the social fabric, so that do the right thing, but we're not interested in grabbing the reins of government, then cramming down our version of life, on you other than protecting life, liberty and property. That's exactly right and you, while you can look at the world history and say well, they did that was with. We did dabble a lot and theocracy and intermixing church stating that since, but I think our framers were very clear, they wanted to prohibit the establishment of an

church and the link with the reason they wanted to do? That is because they knew that if you have one church this mandated, then you don't have religious liberty. They wanted religious liberty for everyone, and you can argue about whether is ultimately about christians and all the nominations being whatever, but I dont care the print. The spirit of it is the same: I dont as a christian. I dont want to muzzle anyone. I want the freedom of religion and speech and association to be robust and that's one thing. I won tail telltale sign of the difference between lives and conservatives. Liberals are sensors, liberal, suppress, livery liberty, liberals are intolerant, conservatives and christians are tolerant. We have nothing to fear from marketplace of ideas we

don't want people to keep us from saying what we want to say since, as we are seeing now in the social media, but I'm on record on this, I am against theocracy affirm. It is the worst thing you could ever do that we're not supposed to do that now. I think that the Jews were supposed to do that in the old testament. They wanted- god, one to be their king directly, they demanded a king and he ultimately gave it to. But I think you would probably That is true. Maybe when I'm in fact I'd be interested, if you didn't, but the christians for sure and and jews today, we don't want. The do you know who I mean, even even in the old testament, god is, is really dicey about kingship and monarchy yeah, I mean samuel is really not happy with the concept of the Jews wanting a king, but it s rather than about rights. He has to be a much more direct relationship between people and god without this sort of intermediaries. Cramming things down yes from from the top it's possible relationship between gotten his children is opposed to somebody who is actually the enforcement mechanism for

for god from the from the top. That's a point, so even that theocracy was not, but what we think of the aggregated that right and in even in in that the accuracy existed in a different setting in the different time obvious some there there. There are many rabbinic responses to. It is specifically this issue, because jews have never been uncontrolled lesson for a couple of thousand years, up until nineteen, forty, seven nineteen, forty eight again so that then there is the third issue with with church and end synagogues, and that is the most troublesome one for a lot of conservatism, republicans and it gets into some pretty dicey political territory, which is, of course, what makes this one. So that is there I see a lot among young people, which is the feeling that ok, so you don't want theocracy, and you have values that your preaching. What are you willing to say about politicians who are doing good stuff for you, but may not share your values, and this obviously referring to president prodi, others a lotta controversy over

how the evangelical community history to president trump with some people, saying that the eventual community has acted on faithfully and certain and by green lighting. His bad behaviour, the other people say while you have to back, I mean the opposition is legitimately anti wife. I mean not not pro choice but selo affirmatively celebrating yeah abortion. So how do you set out the various strands of of how from should be treated by the credit by christians, if they want to reach operator billina, intellectually honest way to young people. I think that, obviously it's was a dilemma going in and for me, when I didn't supporting during the primaries tonight. a lot of things about him. I didn't like, as you well know, I I see trump as a kind of the general in a

in a culture war and in a war for our salvation of the country, secular salvation I don't mean literally I see the left is so crazy and and and so antithetical to our views and what we are vision of america that I applaud trump fighting. Now I dont like all the thing it does obviously- and I don't want to lose my credibility or intellectual honesty by defending things that he does- that I don't think are right, but since he's been in office as opposed to before, I don't see him misbehaving that much in terms he doesn't know sexual dalliances. None of that kind of thing he hasn't been accused of any of those kinds of things. Everything that's come up is about what, as occurred prior to his being in office. I think trump. One of the reasons I was for cruz.

and not for am not. I didn't originally. I didn't a conservative and I think I was rational and believing that we look at his past. I dont believe I'm sorry in out by now saying I'm supporting the fact. The welcome fact that he has changed, or at least he's changed in terms of his policies, what we anticipated and what he's doing he's governing for the most part, is conservative and that's gratifying to me with his tweets yeah. I don't like the tone of some of them. Obviously, and you've mentioned some- I don't won't even say, but I do like the fact that he's fighting see. I think one of the reasons we have this problem trump is a symptom of to me. We have a perception that the republican party wasn't fighting. They were squishes that they wouldn't ever fight. Obama went on budget battles that they're always catering. Every time there's a

from his ring republicans and and democrats, the the ball of socialism is marked a little bit incrementally down the field. You never see go the other way when there's a compromise, so when we win and we force it down their throats. I mean not force, but we do it democratically. They force it down our throats. I eat with obamacare, so I I don't I I see trump as governing conservatively and that some of the things he says, let me say this I know that you and I I hear I watch and listen to your podcast lot. I agree with you ninety nine percent of the time. I think we have a different perception, though, about trump- and this is what bothers me about- never trump ers. They think we're sell outs I haven't sold out. I have five kids, I have nothing to say I love america's much as I ever have. I am not offended by trumps nationalism. I dont see code in trumps, nationalism to walk white support,

see here are all right or any of that coat trump and cold. Don't mix trap is what he says, is what it says, and I don't see any of these sinister motives. That trump has. He may say things that aren't true, but but I don't take him that seriously so as before, when I some of the things he did, I was just appalled now, I kind of laugh when I see these videos of him in the wrestling thing now I look back at him, accusing ted cruz's dad of obsessing. I just laugh at that because I don't it's well absurd, and I don't even take him seriously. It was dirty pool at the time. Don't get me wrong, but I don't I just don't take see. Trump is some sinister guy, I think he's really working for the good of america I mean, really of all the things he believes. I really believe he he loves america and- and I don't see a lot of event and I think, as a christian, I have a duty to support him because he's the guy that standing in the way of a standing athwart.

the advance of left as case I want to ask a second about either response to that, and this come from somebody who said I much more likely now to support him. Then I was unknown to an extent. But first I want to talk to you about your second member rights. Come over listen up. Did you enter to win your brand new gun from the? U s, easy! I get. If not, what are you waiting for you're about to me? the deadline with ex wrong with you, they're gonna, give away and very soon you could get up to twenty four chance when you're done daily, but only if you act right now it could be twenty four kimber is twenty four glass, twenty four six! Even if we're a r fifteen, just tax safe, so the number eight seven to you too and reveal which gun you could be taking home today, they want law abiding citizens to have weaponry with which to themselves. You could be one of those people hurry these free guns, are not going to last long in today's gun disappears at midnight tonight. The usa wants to get more guns into the hands of responsibly. Armed americans, like you they're here, to help train and protect the protector, so do not put this off do MR chance, because you could win new gone every single day. All you have to do is taxed safe, ass, a effie, so the number eight seven to two

to when and how, right now and remember, you only have until midnight tonight wednesdays gun, just text the word safe to eight seven to to do before it's gone forever again: safe text it to eight seven, two to two texts safe to eight seven, to you to check it out. You see she has a lot of aunt S. services you're going to want to be involved with them, no matter what and you have a chance to win a free gun. So why not text safe to eight seven, two, two two alright! So the the response to that, particularly when you talk to young people is that language that you're using to describe president drop is is pretty flattering, see, say that he's the jet on the culture warrior ample or that he, you think they'd he he's doing what's best for the country and the the other. Way of saying it from the other side of the coin is just kind of response: but I would just like a personally: he does not. He doesn't have a history of treating women. Well, obviously, he's been very skeezer in his in its dealings? He lies a lot A lot of things that aren't true but he's a perfectly permissible and better than serviceable vessel for a lot of my political priorities.

And for that reason alone, since all the damage that he was going to do now, done right at me. I was afraid that who's going to course in public culture. Even those already course he's done that it's over cap with that cat back, All right he's going to he's going to say, things that I dont like he's done that not can be, undone he's going is also publican party having here really done. That's too much of an extent but When you say the young people, particularly that he is a in the feeling that he's a great leader or that he's a or that a good man or that he is now that he's a even a decent. Fellow, like I don't think that he's a particularly diesel hello I wouldn't want timmins business partner. I don't think that he's and I want him around my wife unsupervised, but as a vehicle for my for my political views, which is a reflection of my values. I would certainly for him in the white house to two Hillary Clinton or

any other Democrat that they are willing to run at this point are probably in the near future. So with with that being the case, we're both coming at it from the perspective of people who are going to vote for trump in twenty twenty. But I do wonder if it undercuts the the message of people who are value centric to lead with the light to what extent you feel the need to defend trump as a human, as opposed to defending your vote for trump as a politician, what it depends on the the charge against him- and I just I think the facts ought to speak for themselves and on a case by case basis. I do believe that he has become more conservative. Substantively I don't agree with that, and but let me tell you my theory why? I, I don't think he was ever ideological. He did have strong beliefs on on tariffs and trade wars and that kind of thing and immigration, but he hung around new york liberals and he thought

we're nice guys, they were nice to him and he's very much of a product of who I mean he responds to people personally. If they like him and all that- and you can say, that's a negative and I understand, but now he sees the left for what they are and now he sees who the good guys are and including the christians, and I actually think, there's been a transformation. I dont know about a conversion I idea. What are you wearing spiritually, but I think he's moved in the right direction, substantively and I realized even beyond how he's governing I think, he's become to see, The good guys are in this existential struggle for america. I dont want to say that I took two young people around him. Anybody else that, if he's doing something wrong that it's right, I don't want to say that it is, but I might give him some slack on things that I don't take him that seriously about so if he says I want to wrestle somebody to the floor or he or he talks, but I don't want him to curse in public

Obviously, but if he's combative that doesn't bother me, I wanted to be combated because that's what we ve missed and that's what that's? Why the basis? So that's why there's a rallying around and cause they see. I really believe this that we that the conservatives thought the tea party thought that we want that there were no leader standing up for our values and our ideas. I something that does bother me. I probably is ideal- is stick as you or I consider myself a constitution. Conservative I was for ted crews because I saw him as the vintage pure constitution constitutional conservative. Now I know trump isn't that and he isn't the kind of guy who gives give me goose bumps

about someone who will read constitutional law and all that- and I didn't agree with these people, who I argued with during the primaries that we need somebody who's going to come in and break everything to fix it, because I believe what we needed to do was return to our principles, our constitutional principles. But since he's been in office, I've had a rethinking Of that I am I am, I ve, come to believe and it may be rationalization. I don't know I've come to believe that we did need somebody to really shake things, because I see if ted crews have come in and I still love TAT an unfriendly I don't know that the country would have allowed him to do what trump has done. Trump is so unorthodox eat, whether you give him credit for it just say that his his nature as being so unorthodox, as resulted in some things, really happening.

I Didn'T- I don't agree with the the people who are now analyzed. I think they got it right for the wrong reasons, but I think in retrospect they were right that we needed to have things. This broken, not our system and in your guns. And what about you? But I say to myself, then: how do we restore these this the purity of our system and the constitutional constitutionality and all that stuff. Well, I think we can look to him as honoring the constitution. I don't agree with the people who say he's so authoritarian yeah. He he likes he likes putin because Putin liked him. He likes. He might admire tough guys, but he's not he's not doing anything. That's a threat In fact, the only thing he really did the only executive order they ever did that I thought was blatantly unconstitutional was when he backed when he, when he reversed himself at the at the pressure of liberals on on the border thing now. There are probably other examples: I don't fear him, I don't see that he wants to do any of that and when he makes these statements I wish I could be king.

so that stuff and men- and I don't think trump means it. So, let's go back to this topic about president from shaken things up. So my view of president from shaken things up, I can name, may be one place where I think that no other republican work done it and that is moving the embassy to Jerusalem. I think no other public does that. I think that he is so out of the box. since on earth- and I too think that he thought ok, there's no reason for this. Let's just do it, it's obvious that we should do it. What steward had even ted crews, which had difficulty doing but in terms of shaking things up, I think tat grew, probably gets the tax got. I think the ted crews probably gets whatever reversal of Obamacare It happened because it's just whatever republican votes are there. I think he probably points the same. Justices may be better justices in the case of kavanaugh, we'll have to see how Karen august. So, where do you think that the shaking things up has has really benefited the country and the conservative movement? When I say I don't, I don't want to make the sandwich, but he could have done it better.

Than crews. In the sense of I dont mean he would have advocated better. I just think because of his personality in his charisma he's able to get things done, that ted might not ten. They they had so demonize crews. That day, I think they would have neutered and politically. I don't think he would have back down a bit? I just don't think he would have, and I dont know what to say he might he's the one exception. I don't say anything negative about him, because I don't regret my support for rights, but I just think it in the end trump because of his unorthodox, he might have the evil and cabinet he defends cabinet. He says: is somebody more circumspect may say we gotta. Let wait for the evidence to come in and trump waited, but then he finds that this woman is not telling the truth. Those kind of things trump has more courage for whatever reason it may you may attribute it to the wrong things, but he's just he's just a street. Rider fighter he's a brawler, and I know of any probable that I'm fact some people say we not. We need to fight it

dirty is the left or we're going to lose. I don't agree with that. We don't have to fight as dirty, but we have to fight as aggressively and as relentlessly as they do so well. So how do you think this plays out in two thousand and twenty? So I'm? I will admit that I was a skeptic leading up to twenty sixteen, obviously because the data suggested skepticism trump the shock victory. My theory is that no one showed up to vote for Hillary Clinton. My evidence for that is that he won fewer votes in wisconsin than mitt. Romney did trump did and won the state. Hillary Clinton if the is no one likes Hillary Clinton in the very little secret twenty. Sixteen is that it was not, in fact Referendum on president Tromp is referendum on the worst candidate, the history of their public, who everyone does as including democratic voted for bernie sanders Bernie sanders in the private sector, the comes around and we get shall act. I we looks now like we're. Gonna lose forty seats when all is said and done in the house, which is lacking. We are only able to withstand gained two seats in this,

in a in a cycle where there are ten democratic seats that were up for reelection. What is your perspective going into two thousand and twenty? Are you optimistic that trump room is is able to win reelection and if so, why? I'm not optimistic, but I'm not pessimistic, and I thought we were going to make it closer in the house, but I don't think we got shall act in historical from a historical perspective, but we lost way worse than that. We wanted to in the end that looked like we were going to before. Do you think that trump has something that other people didn't have that attributed that contributed to his victory? He can really rally his base and and like nobody, I've ever seen. I he came to cape girardeau for the the holly rally and you can't believe the the way he energizes people and he gives a good stump speech and gets people motivated now and we've talked about whether or not we've talked about but I've been reading. It trump can do

with his base, but he has to go beyond his base. I think newt just says and and nobody can deny newt gingrich's brilliance and especially his stress strategist, and if he, if he really gets the base model, hyper expanded. We will win anyway. I dont and I dont believe that, but but I believe again that what the left will probably do in the next two years will reveal them more and more for how unreasonable they are and how extreme they are. They might get smart and not be extreme, but we trump. We have to have a good economy,

Remember trump wasn't running. He wasn't he wasn't running in this election, but these lessons, weren't, nationalised and in the the presidential election will be obviously by definition and they're all voting for one candidate versus the other, as opposed to four hundred and fifty four hundred and thirty five different districts. I think that he has a very good chance of winning, but it depends on. I saw steve days, write a column the other day, saying I'll. Tell you right now, whether trump's going to win it's whether the Democrats put up somebody likable if they put up somebody that is not likable he'll win, if it's like, if the person is likable, he won't now that kind of goes with your two thousand and sixteen theory that Hillary wasn't and all that. But I don't think it's that simple steve days is a very smart guy, but I I think that

the economy is going to make a big difference and who the Democrats put up. Obviously, but I dont think like ability is all there is to it. These people who said purported to know what was going to happen a year out to me that this folly, you can't that things can chew. overnight- and we seen it literally change overnight. I think we ve got to do much better messaging going forward and tromp has. I wish there was a way that trump you could have a good tramp without the bad and when I say the bad trump, I'm talking about the shooting itself in the foot on certain of its but but I like a lot of his tweets, he can like. I say he can be combative without being personal, I mean he can even be personal as long as he isn't rude and insulting in ways and he shouldn't re maps, interested that we actually create a fake twitter app and we put it on his phone and then we can actually squeeze tweets yeah she tweeted out. It gives him fake feedback. He thinks that it's real feedback,

He goes around the rest of the day, all happy yeah and it never sees the light of day outside of the white house yeah. Something like that, because, obviously, there are a lot of great benefits to a guy with as much charisma as much magnetism amid a guy can bring a spy light like. Nobody in the hearings, american politics. Clearly and having all of that, without the downside of saying, whatever fails to be caught between his brain mouth, or would would definitely be a good thing. I don't have a jaded a view as you do have him. I probably did during the primary. I dont see him as a person that that is all negative and all I see it if he you gotta, know something else. They have attacked him. So much and yes, he's in one sense then scandal you, whatever the call it but he's legitimately responding to the two. Relentless saw, no personal assault and so he's defending himself and he's got a form to do it. Sometimes. I think he goes overboard with the atom

the thing that kind of it you know ship deserves ridicule did, but but he doesn't need a gratuitously put, that in like a lot of people on twitter. You know the urge to be rude and funny, and then you wake up the next day. I wish I hadn't done it, and what I tried to do on twitter is to live a good example and try to be nice to people even people that are mean to me but I'm buying my tongue the whole now much nicer on twitter than I am I know, but I but I dont want to be- and I am saying this to go to blood and I can see If he's a brawler, and he just he doesn't, but I don't see him as some sinister guy. I see him as really wanting to help the country yeah. It gets too personal and stuff, but I just with young people, we I think young people have got to be. We've got locate young people to what we face that how they're gonna lose their liberties and everything that was built for them. If the left continues to win was so then this seems like a a question as to what the future the democratic party, you would hope to see, looks like because

one sense it sounds like you would like to see. The democratic party reveal their full scale radicalism for everybody. So that way we have a better chance of victory in twenty twenty. At the same time, if that full scale radical, wins out? Then? You have a full scale, radical democratic party in charge of the governments which direction she likes it. a party tat well there impotent. Now, though, that that all they can do as abstract, they have as the house and so no I do not. I don't subscribe to this view. Let them in charge, so they can show how bad they aren't destroy the country. I don't think we have many years left. I don't think we have. Many chances doesn't want me, but if you, if you had your brothers, would they run in twenty twenty more moderate candidate who appeals to the rust bell, because you want to viable parties or what for they run somebody completely radical so that the country can see, and then we risk whether that person windsor well. That would be a calculation if I thought the purse I could win. I wouldn't want them to run, but I don't believe, there's many almost any such thing as a moderate democrat anymore. They they build people like that surat and all that I don't believe it all these.

a crass vote and enable the radicalism that we see in the country. So I think the that's one of the reasons I think the things that separate never trappers by them. I don't consider you never try and never I'm not numbered yeah right like I was during the election, but that to me just so folks folks understand that the the sort of breakdown of what never trump is never trump was a movement that existed. It wasn't really even a movement. It was more like a self definition in two thousand and sixteen will you vote for trump in the general? Will you not vote for trump in the general? I did not vote for trump, and also I was never trouble but after the election happened theirs a vote for anymore now, he's the president, so the question becomes: is he good or is he bad? And so I've declared myself a seven from our work. I've got also if you, if you had a if you had had a crystal

of you to govern like this and you yeah, then you would have voted for him. Yes, okay, yeah, the difference our calculation is. I think I think that hillary was so bad and I think we're closer to the precipice to losing this country. I dunno about you, but I think the icy Tom Nichols I've been friendly with him on twitter that he advocated voting for all democrats max boot. These people are unhinged. I can't understand how you could be a conservative and advocate because they think that that, if you do that, you'll ultimately bring the conservative part of the republican party back to its senses. I don't think we have the time and I think we're already back to our senses. I don't, I don't think we've sold our soul. I think we are in a desperate war with the left to preserve america and

amp's the guy leading the charge right now and and he's just the one doing it and we're supporting him for that reason, but I don't think they see the gravity of the threat, the existential nature of the threat and the immediacy, the urgency of it. To the extent that I do I may be wrong, but I don't see that we have a lot of time left. Okay, so I want to ask you in a second about a year Jesus, whereas in which, as I say, contrasts sharply with the jewish version of this book nope but I do want to talk about a europe. Writing we'll get to that in just a second. But first when the founders crafted constitution. The first thing they did was make sacred, rights of the individual to share ideas with alimentation by the government, the second The numerous it was the right of the population to protect that speech and their own persons with force. You know how strongly I believe in these principles and gunnar owning a rifle is an awesome responsibility. Building rifles is no different.

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medical writing because you're well known for your political writing had written a bunch of our times best sellers on politics before you ever start writing about religion. What got you into writing literally in the first place, regulatory publishing asked me to write my first work on the Clinton, reno justice, Martin, I saw that column and I'm a lawyer, and so I agree to do it, having no idea what I was doing and I started doing it- I mean I started. Writing the book and studying to write the book researching and the more I researched the more I floundered realizing what kind of the more I read about it, the less I think I know I don't know how to organise this and not to bring up culture again, but she told me she. She was an author for regular at the time and she said just start writing and all of a sudden you you're you're. Your organization will be a byproduct of that and I really think that was simple, but profound advice once you start writing, you necessarily become.

organised, because you have to focus on what you're writing about. So what your family, like growing up, because, obviously there's you you're, obviously very political. Your brother is russian law. Yeah you're. Here your father is a judge, correct. My my dad is a lawyer. My grandfather was a lawyer. My uncle was a judge. Soap I owe it, we grew up as republicans my dad was a goldwater conservative, very smart politically, he would hold court in our house a lot of times. Our friends would go out and look for girls and all that, but but other people's friends, our friends, would come to our house and listen to my dad pontificate. He was kind of a rush, is pretty yes, but he does did it in the living room, and so it was like to grow up in that house mean people always say muscle fascinating romania dinner table and the truth is now we just listen to me we do anything at all, but we did absorb and that in fact, when rush first got into

radio. I mean he. He always wanted to be a radio guy, and that didn't surprise me. But when he started when he started talking about politics, I couldn't believe how insightful he was and how knowledgeable he was because he didn't talk about them as we he moved away when he was eighteen or nineteen and we we got closer the older we got, but he left and once. I first saw him make a speech at the lions club when I came to visit him in sacramento, and he had a radio show out here which was his forerunner to his national show. Man he's like my dad. He knows all this stuff. I can't believe how good he is so knowledgeable so, but at our house it was mainly we listened, and we absorbed. So how did you move from political writing into religious writing because you've written several books on the gospels in the new testament and the historicity of Jesus

How did you move into interest source for the religious space after reading all these new york times best sellers on politics, while the first work I tried was about the old testament I mean this is, I think we ve talked about this before, but one of the things that convinced me of Christ deity is the messianic prophecies. Obviously, judaism doesn't except those laughingly discuss it before, but That kind of tipped me over the years. When I looked at the messianic prophecies, I've always been a doubter, I believed in god, but I didn't believe in the god of the bible, that it wasn't that I'd ever investigated, the god of the bible. I just negligently and recklessly rejected him without ever studying it and so

I began studying it and realized, or I came to the conclusion that the bible is the word of god. It kind of hit me like an epiphany, and I wanted to inhale everything I could about it, and so I started writing a book about the old testament. The first three books and I submitted that to a christian agent- and he said it's a little highfalutin for a person with no credentials and it's not informal enough for the other, so basically buzz off, and so this was when I was in my thirties and I was a little bit discouraged. But so I thought: okay, I'm but will. I continue to study for the next twenty years. I've continue to study pretty intensely christianity and theology, and it was only after and by the way. At that point I had no platform. I had no columns written no books and done

nothing in along these lines are in practice law and so after five political books in a cynical to calling for fifteen over many years, it was decided to revisit this. I still didn't know if I had the credentials I mean I knew I didn't, because I'm not a pastor and all that, but I felt like there's some people that are not that that don't hear the message of theologians and pastors they don't. They don't have access to some of the great writings that I do and they they they don't read. Apology I thought, thought why can bridge this gap between for the way people and I can introduce them to all this research and all the things that finally convince me. So I wrote the first book jeez on trial, as it

a chronological history of my faith journey and also as a book on apologetically, and then I continued after that into the mayor's code and then the last book before this one was a true Jesus which is about the gospels where I just consolidate. Four gospels into one running narrative and and have

commentary along with it. This book Jesus is risen, follows the gospels, as the book of acts was of the history of the early church and six of the apostle Paul's thirteen epistles. So it's it's really not a history of the cia. It is a history of the church insofar as it tracks the bible. What this book does is track those books, every verse in the bible, either stated or paraphrased and then a commentary with some of the great christian thinkers and then my own insights. So where do you think the the real gap since you've obviously you're very familiar with the old testament and the new testament, where you see the real differences philosophically coming in between old testament, religions, judaism and I and the new testament, because there seemed to be a couple of

in views about there's one is there: Jesus radically shifts kind of the narrative of the old testament and different direction. What is that he comes to complete the law, and so it's more of a newer and more complete gloss on the old testament but weren't. Where do you see that the differences between all the new testament? Ok, I believe that the christian theology boys and I believe that the new cabinet supersede the old covenant, but the new testament doesn't supersede the old testament if it is the second part of a two part story of god. Salvation history- and you know I am a man- by all these secular critics, who say, Jesus is also lie in love and he never got mad. Never read man at anyone and what

I don't realize, is if, if christian theology is true, the the bible, the the god we worship is tryin, and so Jesus was with the father and the holy spirit at the creation. So of course he embraced everything in the old testament and it was intended to be and the Jews were the chosen. People are the chosen people and, of course the the christian view is that there are the chosen people to bring the gospel. Ultimately. Rest of the world, they anticipated a messiah who would be a political deliver military deliver and they, according to christian theology, not through their own fault but miss apprehended. What that the ultimate scripture was saying what it was really saying is he would cry severe suffering servant and he would die for it So when he died, not only did he not deliver a political victory, he was humiliated and didn't even lift a finger to defend himself and he died and

even some of his disciples at that point, Peter denied him after he died even after having lived with him and seeing all his miracles, it wasn't until he they witnessed his bodily resurrection that they were transformed from cowards and skeptics to bold proclaimers of the gospel. But I believe that the old testament is absolutely true, absolutely the world word of god every been inspired and that there is total consistency now as to whether the the mosaic law is still valid. I mean obviously the apostle Paul talks about christians not having to be circumcised and all that, because it's about faith in Jesus Christ, it's not about works, but the christian view is that it was never about works and that salvation has nothing to do with works, because we can't save ourselves we're all sinners, and so you have to this. You have to put aside your pride and put all your trust or faith in in Jesus too

We bridge that gap between sinfulness and god's perfect sinless. So this is one of the discussions I had heard between judaism and christianity. Judaism is much more acts based, whereas christianity is much more faith based. So one might say: okay, if you're, if you're a christian you're some people say. Why is why, as in christ, there's liberty, people say you know, get rid of your change, your christian and then other people say no, because you christians are scolds you, you have to live to a higher standard while in fact here's the difference christian, believe that we we do not have to follow the law as a matter of following them. In terms of that sum, strict requirements, but that when you're under the law, Christ, the law prices. It really allow it's a man,

era of love and obedience, and you even hold yourself to a higher standard. Supposedly I bet you that we believe that you can't hold yourself to I mean that you can't fulfill the ten commandments on your own strength, it's impossible for any sinful human being and we're all sinners to live up to that standard. God can't allow sin in his presence, so there's gotta be a way to cancel out that sin, and that's that's Jesus, but

but we don't believe that I dont believe that all these laws have been eradicated. The mosaic law, in fact all of em, are still in force. There still gods perfect laws. We still live by those precepts, there's a debate about whether we follow the sabbath and all that, and that has been reaffirmed somebody waves and we don't, but basically those lot those regattas laws. They are perfect laws that the christian do is they couldn't deliver salvation. They were to demonstrate to people their inadequacies, so the law was given to show people how they couldn't live. Sinless lies in there and that would draw them to. Christ is more complex than that show. In this view, christianity, is it better to be a sinner with faith or a saint with it?

so you're a person who fulfills as many what you're you're a good person. You fulfill all ten commandments better than most people, but you don't believe in Jesus. What what? What does that mean in in the christian faith? The christian faith is that salvation is only through Jesus, knowing say better. I think, there's a lot better. Acting people that aren't christians a lot of non christians are better acting I am so I'm not not making that, and I don't. I don't like this judgmental stuff that that some christians they and one of the things that turn me off originally to the scold aspect, but the theory is that when you accept christ and your converted you're justified and that, upon that moment, you're you're freed from the penalty of sin so for salvation purposes, when God looks at you, he doesn't see you, he sees Christ senselessness. He can't see spurgeon one of the great british pastors wrote about this got cancer.

But when he looks upon you and you, except of Christ, all you can see his son, that's for salvation purposes, but also something happens when you accept christ- and that is your also freed from the power of sin, meaning the holy spirit begins to dwell you and empower shoe to combat sent on a daily basis doesn't mean that you will ever overcome San as a practical matter, but you will become holy you will become more chrysolite, more sanctified, the more you avail yourself of the holy spirit, and so you will become a better person in that sense in an active since, but you will never be set free this this side of eternity. I want to ask a misapprehension that seems to be had by a lot of folks, brazilian which community about the evangelical christian view of Israel, the the misperception seems, The only reason that evangelical christians care about the state of Israel and the Jews generally is because the goal is to get all the Jews

Israel, at which point Jesus makes his reappearance, the the and the rapture happens, and everything is great from then on it, but if it weren't for all that, then Israel screw him. That, obviously, is inaccurate. I am particularly offended by that first place. Christ was a jew Jesus was a jew, that's an indisputable! I believe we have a duty to love, Jews and not and through. We believe that christians derive their salvation through judaism and through Jews and its own itself, and everyone by the way is not just open to gentiles it's open to everyone,

I also don't. I reject this notion and I also understand that I know a lot of christians, who feel is why this a little bit different bits analogous want. They want Jesus to come back. They want him to return and they I can't wait for Jesus come. I dont get that because, if you believe your saved and if you believe you're going to spend eternity with god anyway, what there is, if he doesn't make it comes back and exact revenge on your are on your enemies or whatever. I dont even understand that, but I am. I believe that that Israel is the Jews, everlasting possession, I believe in the abraham covenant. I believe that has not been eradicated. I don't agree with the covenanters theologians as opposed to this socialist or whatever, who believe that the church has been substituted for Israel. I believe Israel is Israel that land is theirs forever and when I think about the Jews returning

israel in ninety four seven nine forty eight that gives me goosebumps about the validity of the bible and god's superintendence and sovereignty. That's just too unbelievable that that happened, that guy, for god, not to be behind it, and I believe that those who bless bless. Israel will be bless. Those who curse Israel will be cursed, and but I don't even have to I- don't I don't my allegiance to Israel and the Jews, isn't because I'm afraid I'll be down. I believe it's just part of it. I I just I have an affinity, I'm not trying to to patronize you, but I've felt that way since and I I think believing Jews feel that way. They can sense it. The idea that we want to usher in this in

times and am expedite the rapture. I know there's some loony tunes out there that have that in some people I guess but I, but I dont know anybody in nobody that I respect wants to do it. For that reason they want to do it because they're so sick of how crazy the world has become and that I can understand, but not for the sake of entering a ban for any other reason, and not for utility in purposes about the Jews, that's pretty cynical and it. But I know I'm not saying you are simple and areas if they know that there are a lot of miss apprehension about all of this, and I think that is really important to elucidate that, because when I say people don't believe it the same way, they would from somebody who actually study rise up. So we ve spent a lot of time and that's where the divisions between christianity and judaism- and it seems to me that, right now in the united states and more broadly, the the grave division is between judaism between believers in the judeo christian value system and everybody else that they're there right now there are a group of people who,

believe that essentially, the values of the bible are the correct values, as filtered down through thousands of years of thought, history in evidence and that that is it is created western civilization and there's a whole other group of people who believe that judeo christian civilization basically stands in the way of progress and that all of the hallmarks of judeo christian civilisation have to be obliterated in the name, I have of that progress, and this seems to me to mirror a lot the division between right and left. What do you? What do you make of that generalize thesis totally agree. I I think that the judeo christian tradition is what has given rise to this unique system that we have this unique country, the freest, most prosperous, most benevolent nation in the history of the world, and if I had to, we could go in and we could talk about how the majority of of of the founding fathers were strong practicing christians there's debate about that. I mean some people point to the high profile ben franklin, Thomas Jefferson, who are are

really not strong christians, they might have been the us or whatever, but the overwhelming majority of them work christian and they believed in the christian, the judeo christian ethic and by the way, just so, people don't think I'm patronize judeo christian is not some euphemism its. I considered old testament new tests as as a piece and so that's what we're talking about, and so I think you can look at our founding and trace it, and I also think that the development of all these ideas you can trace back to christianity, and and and judea Judy. I am christianity side. You have one final question for you. We talked a lot about allie of church and value of community and all the rest of this. There is still a lot of people who doubt the veracity of of christianity itself. What is your most convincing army? You have to give thirty seconds to our. Somebody into why christianity is correct and people should go back to church. What is the, what is the short, the short form argument of every book,

well, I believe the bibles inspiring, got every bit of an old testament and new testament. I believe, as somebody bleat reads it with an open heart and sees how the testament the testaments are connected and see how the apostles were changed when they encountered the risen cry I waste that they will be drawn to him, and then they will be drawn to to read the bible. For this. That's why I write these books is to lead people to read the bible themselves. This is not the book of god. It's a book about the book of god, the word of god, and so christians believe that Jesus is the south. Our salvation is in Jesus, so I would encourage people to place their faith in Christ, but they're not going to

do that on a bet like pascal said they have to. They have to really believe it and they have to embrace it, and the only way to really do that is to introduce yourself to the bible. Familiarize yourself with the message of the bible are: are mentoring our preaching and and so you go to church and that's what you do you asked me why we would go to church well where we believe the triune god as a community is a communal god. We believe that christians ought to live in community build each other up and enforce each other hold each other accountable. So we are are made in the image of the trillion. God is what we believe as well and so, where community people who should go to church. For that reason, well, you can't do it all on your own. One of the one of the great debates I've been having with some of my friends in the in the more secular community a lot of kneel and white men, thinkers people ex even pinker, and my guess, armor and and SAM Harris had been on her in talking about light meant and the glories of the enlightenment is. It seems to me that they forget that the enlightenment was not rooted in nothing. It wasn't me

things were, just nowhere and then magically in seventeen. Seventy out sprang this Safety in one particular place at one particular time that the Women values have devalued the individual there's there's root for that, and it's in genesis when it talks about man being made in the image of god. There are routes to all of this. That's the key. Let's say that it wasn't founded by christians, overtly where you can look on it, a statistical charm, the fact that they designed a government to that believed in an ailing is based on available rights. That is what what what his rise to unalienable rights, except that we are created in god's image and and also the fact that we believe were fallen, that the christians believe were fallen. So you have it's kind of a paradox. You have a tension between men who are who are born in god's image and who possess that image. But who are also fallen, so they ve got this. There's this dichotomy, so you you're entitled to those rights but

you have on your abuse them because of our fallen nature, so they constructed a system that would maximize their liberties, but would also restrain government such that it would they would not become they would not be. It would not absolutely absolute power in the individual and the government would not have absolute power, see what distinguishes our system is, but we have limitations and govern. Ancient greece might had liberty, but they didn't have restraints on government in restraints on government is really what gives rise to liberty as a practical matter, and so you have these checks and balances. You have sinful men competing against each other in these three different branches. Also, there there sinfulness is exacerbated by the the axiom that power corrupts in. So you ve got that going on, so what they is knowing.

they weren't gonna, be perfect. They competed that they they set these competing branches up, so that the by product will be levity, maximizing liberty. Mothers is one of the reasons why I think that what you actually Jews incredibly important, even though we disagree on religious matter, not because I think that if you do not have a social fabric that is backed by religion, if you don't have a group of people who are going to church together or synagogue together and worshipping god together and understanding the bible together and creating a social standard together. Then the system that the founders built is utterly at an adequate, because then you a bunch of people who are doing whatever they want and they have the rights, but there are no there's no way for the government to constrain them. Yes- and I've heard you talk about this before and it rang a bell with me, because I also think The enlightenment people can't can't and cannot have developed this out of nowhere. They were, they were building on the shoulders of people who had proceeded that, including the science

soo who were incentivized to study because they believed in god, Newton was one of the most ardent christians. There were, and he wanted to investigate the universe, to see that it had to discover god and affirm, and invalidate, but I I there's an analogy I can make to people ok, why is social is what kind of a quays I socialist socialists, the country now, and so the liberal say: okay, so we're so listen. We still got a bunch of liberty or what point: how are we not for a united level? What my contention is that we're piggybacking on all this all the foundation that we ve enjoyed all these years and pretty soon we're gonna get to the end of our open, we're already seeing it were emptying our time We have no reserve, and it's all found on these values- Adams, washington, you all these guys. Always founders talked about that. Attention is made only for moral and religious people, and I really we're seeing that now what

why else do you see the left proposing judicial activism and I ve been doing this? wherever because they don't really believe in the constitution to so. If you have judges who will interpret the law who are reared the law according to what what they think it is. They think it ought to be. Then you can just unravel the constitution that way you unravel it by executive orders, not paying any attention to it by not respecting it. By having by re writing everything in our and our moral code by perverting language through this postmodernism more words don't mean- and you talk here the most elegant person telling about this today about the the it what's the trench and tourism yet transient tourism, but the intersection of interests our international year in that is so such a danger. Dangerous, that's a threat our values, because we're saying that words don't mean what they mean, that sex doesn't mean once but but but now we ve got to say

Why should where liberals are so inconsistent? You know they. They say the science deniers another denying science on the on the gender thing and they say they that women hear me roar. Support that, but now they're trying to eradicate all differences between the genders between the sexes so ultimately liberalism. Founded on nothing its moral and intellectual anarchy and it will implode on its own, except it won't implode if people in power forces, our throats and that's why? Ultimately, I see the left, I see a connection between liberals and the left and this authoritarian mentality

It scares me to do think that there is a possibility of a religious revival which it seems like would sort of be necessary in order to reinstall any sort of gas into the tank in order to to refill that, because where else are we going to get the the energy to rebuild the social fabric, I'm singing to attempts to substitute in socio, but social media networks are going to get together that way or were going to substitute angry politics for the building of the social fabric? Are you hopeful for the for the future of the country? Do you think religious revival was around the corner? I I have to be hopeful. I have five kids. And I am optimistic by nature. At least I forced myself to be. I don't know what my heart of hearts says, but I don't allow myself to be pessimistic and- and I see in our society when my parents were growing up and you you grew up in an orthodox church. I went to an orthodox synagogue. I I went to church and everything, but we didn't bible studies. I don't know of any body any adults when I was a kid who were in bibles yet today their bible studies all over the place

I see a rejuvenation, revitalization of christian belief and practice, even though we see a increasing polarization secularism. Secularism is on the rise, but so is faithful. Christianity and aunt mean active christianity, emission work and all the stuff, but the only problem I see to nothing but another problem I see is this colorization has entered the churches, and now we see churches and mega churches whose goal extensively- is to get as many people in the church doors as they can for Christ because they want to introduce people across and that's a loving motive, but in doing that they sometimes dilute the biblical message and, and they cater to the culture and conform to the culture. Instead of encouraging the culture to conform to the ways of god. That scares me that as many external threats as their art,

church. It's the internal ones. That scare me the most as to whether I dont know how it's going to going to unfold. I almost see I'm I'm hoping. We see some kind of a reaction to the left's insanity its it's almost like we're not doing it on our own. By inspiring people, I mean people are in christian communities being inspired, but we're not affecting the culture like we do and a lot of times when you have christian movies and all that they don't resonate. Maybe because they're too, itchy or whatever, but they're, not resonating. Are there not cool enough, so we were losing the youth and but but I still see when you have the secular world, sir in saying that we still have sanity and are in our communities, and we still have people who recognise right and wrong in when they see the left getting increasingly unravelled there.

might be a return that way. I know it's probably pretty sad that my hope for revival is in the recognition of our crazy and evil. The the opposition is, but that probably, what my hope really is, david. Thank you so much or saddened by end. It is so cool that we finally get to meet after nearly twenty years. Thank you so much thanks so much for coming in Eventually, rochelle sunday, special was produced by Jonathan, hey, executive producer, Jeremy, boring associate producer. Math is glover edited by Alex Senora audio is mixed by dealing case, Aaron make up, by just while there are entitled graphics by cynthia envelope. Then Shapiro show sunday special is a daily wire forward. Publishing production copyright for bub drink twenty eighteen