Hello, Michel lorry here come and hang out with me every tuesday on my brand new podcast called. Can we be real, there's nothing cycle had going on here- we're not can it be too worried about what anyone thinks of us we're just gonna, keep it real about everything from the fund to the serious and we love it when you share your deepest sacred to like this, I worked on urban amounts to incur for mobile phones. Normally two hundred dollars a week put the most of store, wouldn't want homes for hundred the only thing I feel bad about assigned to my partner when he asks me. Why have cash my purse say come on getting

absurd shop. Can we be real on old podcast platforms at carmona, we're in the business of driving you happy and with the widest selection of used cars under twenty thousand dollars, to a bound to find a car that up with a smile on your face? Havana gives you control by letting you customize your down endlessly payments. You can browse tens of thousands of cars online to find one within your budget, and you will get surprised then. He pulled his feet. Carvana dot com or download the app to shop for a vehicle Carvana will drive you happy. Availability may vary by market. This is a true crime podcast, as the title suggests. So please consider this your warning that it's not suitable for children and it probably will contain content that may be triggering to some people also

It's an australian, true crime, podcast, so australian, aboriginal and torres strait islander listeners should be aware. It may contain the voices of deceased people. The producers of this podcast recognize that traditional owners of the land on which it recorded die, pay respect to the aboriginal elders, past present and emerging. I'd just like to say. I am today is a day of justice to die of justice for those brave men of the esa. Is he stood up and told the truth about who? Then Robert smith is a war criminal? A bully eliah. Today is a day of some small justice for the afghan victims of been robert smith. I think it was a great call back in june, twenty irene to run their story. I think We'll go down in the

three of the news business as one of the great cause, That's nick mackenzie increase masters. Speaking on the steps of the federal court last week, just one soulier, justice, anthony bus, anko, dismissed the defamation case brought against them and the news outlets that ran their stories about former essayist soldier been roberts smith. The case was dismissed because, just as presented, I found that the reporting of those journalists had established the truth of most, accusations contained in their stories, including the most serious claims that been rubbed smith committed war crimes during his deployments in afghanistan. It's just the latest skirmishing a wall rubber smith has been waging since twenty six dane, but it was early in twenty eighteen. When the first series of article was published in the age the sydney morning, Harold and the camera times, alleging war crimes have been committed in afghanistan by a small group of rogue essayist soldiers lead

one man in the first dispatch. None of the alleged defenders were named, but the ringleader was referred to as on it ass. It seemed strangely flamboyant choice of certain them to me as a reader. At the time- but I didn't know who the stores were about even though I was an occasional co host of the daytime chat called the circle that was cancelled, not long after a segment went away in which you me stones and george Negus made a few jugs at his expense. Luckily, for me, I wasn't there that particular day but you're about to hear that segment. Again now and I'll say it's aged interestingly you'll hear georgie coughlan introducing the conversation, because she's very came to talk about a large profile pace that appeared in the previous weekends papers about been robert smith. You'd only very recently returned at that stage his final deployment in Afghanistan. The pace had a few nice photos attached, including one of the men in question in speeders. Standing up in a swimming pool in the sunshine is impressive

it is on display, as are those very masculine tattoos, allege orgy, take it away and the other voice you'll hear is comedian. Funeral laughlin rounding out the panel. I love it Oh, you are watching the circle this tuesday morning, so hey last january, an aussie soldier was awarded the highest military decoration for valor, the victoria cross, essayist corporal Ben Roberts smith disease, nine There is no, he leaped into the firing line against taliban insurgents, and his mission has been described as a thirteen hour fought to the death row, but he's also a hubby and his dad has got twin daughters and on the weekend I was flicking through the papers, and I stopped in my tracks- still with me and chased I'm wearing around. You go get Well, we didn't give a chain. We saw another side to corporate then, and I want to share with our views the time have a look

I look at the physique he's good at diving down to the bottom of the pool and safest Brian is the doesn't matter if he has enough signs. He says: oh yeah, these things they say is, and they described you in the paper on the weekend, as as almost like an ultra feet. Killing machine can we just go back to that little caffeine? is the violence that I just think there's a lot of people a lot of women in particular that would have flicked through the papers on the weekend and when one is already attractive. Isn't that, like handsome, oh feats of my life in his eyes, and he is a really good going here for a ban, but that sort of black and what, if they're, not updating the sick. Intimating joining nato. He could be done route I want to get away. I was supposed to go and visit.

What is reverse sexism? It's not easy. Smoking is a rapidly changing symbol of the spotting. The taliban and he's got it all. In my opinion, he's got, I think, he'd be highly intelligent. He sounds like a wonderful father and dead blood thirsty and he's feet, you're not going to be. Those of asia was by the lawyer. What do you do after the show, I kill people, it's not integral no object, then I do that for a living. He is fighting. The taliban he's helping protect people over there getting killed by the taliban. Just change the subject. My friends yumi and george received death threats about that segment for years, and they work opportunities were severely impacted but I never made a connection between that and the stories I was reading about leonidas in twenty eighteen, a certainly didn't that leonidas was a famous spartan king. All that Robert smith has a huge

how too of a spartan helmet on his ribcage all that he was infamous in certain circles that he's fixation with the movie the three hundred which is apparently about a battle during which legend has it. Just three hundred spot and soldiers held back the vast persian army for three days in roughly five forty six bc. Don't at me if I've got some details about that wrong, because the battle itself isn't really important to this story. The thing is that lots of people around australia deed realise that the sensational stories in the newspapers were about been robert smith, who was by then quite a reach, famous and well connected civilian, and he was working is why up the executive ranks of the media industry thanks to his clothes friendship with television and publishing tycoon Kerry stokes. So when those journalists decided to run another series of stories about him in august of twenty eighteen, they made the decision to go ahead and name him. Ben Roberts smith responded by launching defamation,

savings against the three journalists and the media companies that own the publications in which the allegations appeared. He's legal fees were being covered by his boss. Carry stokes who was clearly just as emotionally invested in the fight. Stokes is a passionate supporter of the australian defence force in november of twenty attain the austrian federal police launched an official investigation into allegations of war crimes committed by a strange soldiers in afghanistan. The investigation into the conduct of been robert smith specifically was said at the time to be one of the most secretive in the nation and the most serious inquiry ever conducted by a striking police into alleged war crimes. We now five years down the track from the beginning of that defamation trial and the once invincible warrior is defeated. I don't know a lot about mythical battles, but watching nick mackenzie spake on the steps of the federal court,

wait. I couldn't help it think of david and goliath, Nicholas pile shaken and they looked like. He wasn't quite sure if he was dreaming emily- and I assume, with naked yesterday- he's at home with covert now. Would you believe, but he rallied to reflect with us on the last five years. It sprang up slowly, exhausting felt so tired? I think you would surprise me was, after the case very it came out. I was expecting more of a symptom of the sheer relief, but I thought that'd be a bit more like internal pace, but it was guy said something insisted debate in fattened flogged mode for such a long time. They We then I had an accident and sorry it's just about trying to calm down now keeps popping to my mind, is had we lost just imagine the blow back and I we were gonna history while on the other it was over. She answered history is, you know the most rotten. listen them in the land of, thankfully the truth one, but

two until with a judge uttered. These words are honestly, like he had pause hop of italy in court. I'd know I do but try resetting your. I read on twitter name, you, u traded, that you still getting death threats, some like imagine. If it on the other I, but I thought I just kept thinking of how your mental health increase masses, mental health was and just the tension like. I don't know how you managed to kind of leave sort of normally through this whole time with them. weighing on you. I think the truth is you don't leave normally, because it is weighing on you the whole time, and so are you sleeps affected. The last affected. Give your family friendships etc, because there's always distress in august. The best way to think of it is it. I will never and people codes. However, my lawyer day, Levin cold one of the key lies in the case or his boss pay the ballot so they're, not the name on the fine in it. My maybe things to panic, and I always ask them Rather than get I hungarians what's wrong, that's gone wrong,

haven't you may we had were in that that five, five plus and lots of things the got wrong made behind the scenes, the amount of the catastrophic mrs, was out was immense. I've just written a book, job are really going to lots of vice behind the scenes. Ups and downs in in some the tariffs, moments in some of them. The sheer relief moments, Israel, I'm glad you said you written a book because I was just about to say the book you, and maybe that will help kind of exercise at all is well get it up. I pray ordered at no great was the cold. It's called crossing them by published by should decide that mean that the bug publisher will encourage made to make myself a character and always very reluctant do that, because on profit and journalists should be part of the story, but our begrudgingly, a great big taxis too, to rock That's how I was feeling in the journey that offers on was actually quite cathartic birthday christmas. had been through so much

I can tell you some of our key witnesses. The fight to get them into court was beyond belief and, if not for a fee, who really loving it. I carved blocked lockdowns, have it terrible impact on many people, but a contagious. The carving eyes caused in this case. So bacon because witnesses who we're going to come over that many months of delays, their life circumstances changed. But I came here they're my most important witness still to this day hairs in the back. My next stick up thinking about up, as you find it, into the state. Yes, he's here is in sydney from paris easy in the cooperation get pierre is being driven upward by bothered the problem in through the underground car backup. As you feeling a guy looks. Ok, he same work into court yard. First time? And we are much m, o alloys? You can type So there is no sound in the court,

and we don't know whether this guy's going to lie to protect Robert smith, who has brought a soldier. These guys had been best maids there. together, they fought together is gonna, lie, ends and destroy our case. Really tell the truth and the entire tags, forty minutes of testimony leading to revive the pot of her ever came mission would have finally gets the key part of it and as he starts to to tell the truth- about how a man was kicked off a cliff. I mean that ways was literally spent hours covered in sweat. Any was either mice electra. buying moment of the entire court case. I can imagine that the emotion in hearing him start to say the words. The moment where you know he's gonna, do it gonna he's gonna tell the truth and the way he speeches as well. This is a he had so much so of greiss in the war in the wide level his testimony and searched for me at the same time,

could tell he was a man. I was deeply traumatized, but there was a grace he was telling the truth under the most difficult circumstances enduring it slowly with deliberation and the way the witnesses led through court yeah. It's very step by step. A barrister is, is just asking him about open questions. What happened next? What happened? Next every lawyer tells a witness, only answer the direct question incised little. Is you kid? he's he's giving a story in piecemeal little tiny little bits either the prison up. I saw and led to the edge of a cliff. What happened next, I sir Robert Smith, take if you epps back what happened next year. I saw ruthven smith me: emu, his boot go out into the man. What happened next? What's this afghan men catapult over cliff his face its iraq on the way down? Teeth explode at it is made of these long on our going but piece by piece. This war crimes.

his unveiled in court by a man who is the deputy commander of Robert Smith's patrolled men who saw it all and the man who was kicked off the cliff by this stage. You know What about this man? You know about his family. You know, he's a father he's a visa husband he's a brother or first and foremost, and was talking to as a commander. I just the other day about this show he said to me. Oh I I always tried to remember that afghans are humans in. It sounds like an odd thing to say cause. Of course they are but their war being what it is. So, just because since the and ultimate I think, as roads really had for a strategy, will we live on the other side, the world Afghan stands a world away to connect to someone who's die? The most horrific and unjust Death is better. Who are they? What is your story? It is wabi, that's why we're trapped. the standards to mate allergens. Hey. That's why cities name outside Korda? His name is Emma Jane. He had a bunch of kids. He had a wife called baby

There are many kids and I can tell you that MR belet, they just like markets there. Running around giggling and and accept our job I looked a hell of a lot poorer and though they live, Lastly, hot lives, and the other difference, of course, is that are never dad. side allergen. Wasn't there. It wasn't like he was a taliban who was taken prisoner and execute that which is, of course wrongly, cannot exclude any prisoners. For obvious reasons. It is a civilian. He was a father who went into town to get some shoes, for his daughter get some flour and he was gonna. Go back to his house in picked up in an essay ride. Brown place wrong time. He smiled at Ben Robert smith at the wrong time after he was detained in public what did he smiled? What nobody knows, but there is a civilian, is thinking what the hell's going on here and the questions is being asked. You tell a ban- is- is laughing because it's ridiculous, his hands of bees pants

and his handcuffed stat laugh at that small which, according to the evidence, we gain him to be kicked off the cliff by robert smith, then drip dragged into a train and executed yet historiae valley, tiny size, pacific, isn't it the thing about this? One is that there is now a grey area. It's it's not about some confusion or the fog of war, It just seems sadistic. I don't know the word, but I was thinking about theatrical, so it's very theatrical. It goes back to that really strange element. Doesn't it that the movie, the three hundred? That's a really odd part of the story? How real is that? How big a part of the culture is, that is, that real trade, but that that is real and despair. Big debate around a warrior culture and people talk about it actually knowing what it, what it means and with an open mind if you wanna, if you believe infusing, a warrior culture might help your soldiers, europe and officer. I find him off the battle.

I can understand that as long as you're doing and why it's wherever one nice, whether what the laws of in rows of war are in the lines are gonna be crossed, but there was a click of and in that I will again the minority than most other guys. And yes, yes, besides we, is that a start be declared that you not you not some vague in a movie, we were, we ve got a follow up the law where, but there's a click of guys. He I would this form of three hundred over and over again this idea way spot and warriors and in the feed. has the same way: somebody's kicked off the edge of a precipice after alley. Jam was kicked off the cliff by robert space. Here is People who have a giggle entire call him spartacus was a nickname that was given the spot and quicker, and so where what was happening there was poisoning of the culture in pockets. Corners of the asean is. We know that there this morning you guys these guys, the minority thought our above the law in other, began to glorifying killing, and I forgot what it was

It is to be an israeli soldier which is to fight hard, but fight fear listened the guys who testified against rubber smith. We went to war in afghanistan. They understand what worries I forward. Some of them are. there were one of the guys who testified alive and opponents he was sent to escape eleven times: delays Is ny? What worries and for them war is hard and war can be dirty and war. One, the one black said to me, where I needed tough blogs to do a tough job and we did not hesitate his words to pull the hammer. Bad guy gets shot even if I'm not really sure is a bad guy. If, if there's enough under the rules that guy carrying a radio while he's running a wiser like us, they call them squatters, it could be debated, but it was under our rules of engagement. We could engage and we would engage, but ali Jan was a civilian. He was handcuffed, the black had handcuffs on. He was unarmed. How is it right for sarge to kick a civilian?

off a cliff, actually justify that by saying where wars are dirty business understanding, was there. Is there is a tough business each year is a traumatic, shocking thing how I understand why somebody might give it a war crime, but which still, damn the war crime justice we condemn those nazi soldiers who lie civilians, in war torn and shut them against the war. We condemned eyes, as my colleague chris masses, because you wearing a strategy, a uniform don't condemn you- and I may gather critical thing to say- if you go and you take a block off a cliff whose of civilian. I can t these. It is sorry counterproductive, to your mission, because everyone in the village he watches that next time is right, soldiers, sort to your village a body in order to be helping me locked and giving them any help or or or intelligence. And you what, if you're young man he watched that happen to you, article eyes yourself, man, they creating taliban by

engaging in the accident taliban themselves engaging in another guy Yes, he said to me: you said nick we don't fight like a television, what said to support that they do. These beheading died you in the most appalling things that we get angry and we far up we go after them in and yet you up slowly. We have them down, but we do so within. The laws and rules of war but which we uphold and that's what makes us different and that makes you our debate and Ozzy soldier. I often think that often think that the legend I've been robert smith must have radicalized many many afghan It was very interesting to say the the afghan villages testify in court again it was. It was a really electrifying moment and I really hope I do it. It's hard to to bring the drama of the courtroom into a book, I've really high by doing justice, but the lad in writing I tend to try to re imagine watching these guys test. by these afghans, you wanna particular the inn I shouldn't have been overcome

time he's got, no internet is so for him. There was the big man, the big noise and the green eyes in the way described in. his anger when he was interrogating Ali jab, but also his sense of the the loss and injustice of what he'd witnessed and, at the end of his his testimony in justice, Besancon wrapping up research to the court right referred from from this witness. Thank you for your time, sir. This being translated you and they are free to leave caves. Testifying video link you fraid allay the video link in, of course, do not discuss your testimony with other witnesses, very formal, and this blog realize all wrapped up any salary angry at being attacked by Robert Smith's lawyers in his accusation is long. He looks down the camera through the court this in this getting bame to the federal court and he starts pointing he says It is my cultures, my honour, the patched on culture. We tell the truth I would never lie, and I will tell the truth whether your taliban or american or restructuring I was, I would happen to rally jam

for him it was saying descent. Injustice has happened. Not here. I don't like the taliban, and I, like the americans, had I not these other like it, and I am a farmer. Men with guns bay, thy taliban- isis- the- u s there was so bad idea to me, but I tell you what murder my uncle kicking off a cliff, and I will speak the truth about that in any What are the globe and it was a really impassioned speech now it didn't count as evidence for Jesus. It was electrifying in and of itself. It's such an important story, for so many reasons for journalism for justice, and I think it's made a eye for me reflect on like what you said in a lot of us trying to reflect on. You know these people and also, I feel like it's been really tough for australians to actually confront the fact that our war heroes A fallible like, I think, a stray lions fetish war, a war as there is no doubt that the angelic legend

she's early part of the nation's identity and speed forces soldiers align ized, but I can t last night I was purpose- to force, the forces reserves, multiple terrorism, understand came over to my ass, the butler whisky. Does I thank you and asia. One of number of special forces soldiers who stood up and told the truth. Many hard years and I cited tabled is actually a story about the good guys doing the right thing, because better We ve seen the vast minority there's only human, his little band of rogues that they went right. Most soldiers The say yes in the commander is actually served with distinct in honourably and we can be proud of them, but more than that, those, This is in the essays who came and told the truth and those persons in the us. So became our confidential sources there that is huge physical bravery by deploying to Afghanistan, putting their lives their lives and align diane diane night, despite massive moral courage

by coming and telling the truth in court, despite the card of the esa spain to keep everything in house and is not just the card is not just that the threats thou coming from its way that can t the threats that he got up to the wayward behind the scenes to to intimidate witnesses is simply inside its also when you talk of this serves lionize revealed status. That way we hold our essay soldiers in maybe rightly but yard, let let's absolutely champion. The usa is for all the wonderful things they do, but when those small number of people to the wrong thing in the corner Obviously, it is also true in the field of honesty in reporting, which did they say it again and accurate intelligence. The data several back to headquarters about, what's going on there on the ground, that there was no fighting for truth. Never you think about these issues counter. It didn't happen, but here too democracy to Afghanistan would have been the ideal it. I have free pray, oppressed

a place where we're truth and justice matters that we are fighting for. Yet what happened with? robert Smith is. He became a part of the truth. Is that cover ups, whose about a lack of justice was about mood at all. The things that they were fighting against I've been robert smith actually was engaging in and and come again step as members This is knowing that everyone believe rabbits, because he was a war europe, it was a big man he was a scary man and you do with these powder shop. I pull up even back in australia for them to break through that and tell the truth was were simply in it. I mean the thing I thought about just this morning: armies alexander the blocking of the cliff. at a small little life and a small patchett there with his kids and any is family and friends. There was a small and an actual meaningful life for him in some, his legacy and death. His nightmare rings out across the world, as your he's death has made it could have been. It could have a meaningless it in a lost snuffed out now

about it, but my We remember the man, remember his family and where you remember that at the end of these executions of through paypal- and I think there is a real power- ro justice, in remembering allegiances, he's diamond and remembering his children's and they're still out their suffering. but it gives a humanity to the victims and reminds us why it's so important for those they say, so I just have done what they did but to stand up and tell the truth and fought for what's right, immoral and what it means. It's so true, because that's exactly how he was treated by bain Robert smith, he was traded like he was nothing like. He was worthless. His life was worthless, his family was worthless. You and chris masters and everyone who's participated in all of the witnesses. You have completely subverted that you have made his life very meaningful and he will in fact have changed the culture

cause of the australian military in a way that no one else could have, but what what I am, what an amazing set of things to think and and each tonight's, the pears cherries, which the pair of of justice are also to give a good friend of mine. His name is thus stimuli. Was a medic and sergeant said yes, yes, I wasn't bear I qualify, but so do carry a gun, shot bad people in when it Working with the issue is a medic extremely fit dr guy, and as a medica, an afghan was put into his care, a father and a farmer had been shot in the back yard, but with a survivable, injury and and dusty was trading him another soldier, nothing, there's nothing to with Robert smith, but another blacken. The ss took this I saw the allegation is he was murdered and stomped on to death. Lee was killed in and there's a major investigation underway now dusty didn't stop that happening at the time and. The girl was in his care he's a medic. Is there to help his family

to intervene then has to this day in spain to dust. Every couple of haunts him to this day may try to Spain. About a bit. He was ignored internally, but he got back to australia. and he's lost spiral out of control, and he is sorry destroy while he was leaving this guy's a very high performing guy is actually in a late ass light. It was promoted apps are in the army. He was managing lots of people at at night. He'd come home and he'd be like. Sometimes he punch himself in the face in a blackout, game so black eyes and the effect that for he is a black recognising that the guy was killed was a father like he was in the mall effect that had on vast he's off to this day. Is it spot also there is doubt healing of of talking. In saying this is what happened and they should be accountability and we got we arrange for dusty. the sons of eyes there was these are, the guy was mooted and end. We couldn't get dusty to afghanistan, to dangerous, unkivered, etc.

We are those his own call united in the sun's now. Never forget it does the apologize and he was was highly emotional. When the sons were highly emotional. I was so worried that we're gonna attacking I you you're your phone soldier in demand money, or something that I looked him simply and they say we forgive you and I said the dusty. He painter enough. My you ve been through Often we forgive you exactly how absurd dusty was. What's this in any case for me. What well like that was. It was one of my path when redemption moment. Some sure industrious laughin for me, as a journalist, tab to watch on, were simply incredible. This concept of moral, drawn is mass. Even then, I think I got how many I'm forty tease out, I didn't understand. Mental health was never when I grow up, it's only a racing thing and early the racially do? I can I say openly, you argue, suffer from at times severely,

saudi. If I didn't I'd no idea of that, it was a thing and then, when I figured out it might be a theme I didn't as a bloke, I wouldn't be prepared to talk. now imagine if you're a soldier in in the most revealed a late squad. In it. The usa is then you have your own diamonds and you're gonna have here as are set my mistress during a tough job. Is what is one hundreds of what's these guys have endured? And I the moral trauma that The men of the usa is who witness war crimes who participate in war crimes are forced to this will hold them firstly dies more or a guy in the usa, as patrol commander, tough, tough bastard as niles. You know it is a hard man, but he said to his guys: don't pay that guy in the field of wine and executes civilly nor a prisoner dont. Be that guy, because it'll haunt you for the rest of your dies.

you ll be a grandparent and you'll be cawing into whisky. It I don't buy that guy, the. We'll be back ethnic mackenzie after the break, and there is a link in the shine eyes to this episode to help your priority. He's book crossing the line, the story of the fight to expose one of the greatest military scandals in austrian history tell me something I don't know I don't like that nasty curve ball. There aren't any surprises when you finance your next car with Carvana. You get real terms personalized for you right near strikes, don't really stay right. How am I supposed to focus when you're telling me about carmona while slugger you gotta keep your eye on the ball. Just like you could keep an eye on your customized down a monthly car payments. I can cost

he's out and on his way to finance, is next car with carver this carvalho, dot com or download the apt to get pre qualified today will drive you happy akerana. We joined today by journalists nick mackenzie, who, with Chris masters, wrote the ground breaking series of stories about Bain Robert smith in twenty eighteen. Chris masters, of course, is the legendary investigative journalist and form a host of full corners, a multiple, woefully award winner and an indicator in the australian media hall of fame christmases story. The moonlight state about endemic corruption and job occupations queensland pave the way for this, is gerald inquiry that brought down the government ended the national party's thirty year stranglehold on the state and saw the police commissioner jailed, among other highlights in a career that is clearly still producing. Highlights masters exposed the french government's involvement in the sinking of the greens

his ship, the rainbow warrior in oakland harbour and confirmed the existence of the calabrian, mafia or the drink eta in australia A bit later in the show will hear from nick about his experience working with chris masters, but first we must travel back to the increasingly doc deployments of the australian essay. Yes in afghanistan, between two thousand and nine and two thousand and twelve,

for a little more context. I'm sure you remember David savage her. We spoke to unnecessary three hundred and two of a straight into crime. About the day he was targeted by the taliban, who sent a twelve year old suicide bomber to try and kill him. Oraculous lay hey survived that attack. The reason I bring it up is that that happened in twenty twelve in earnest can province. The big military base in erskine province was tearing count and that's where the australian essayist was based. It was also the location of the infamous unofficial bar the fact, ladies arms, which was the backdrop for so many of those disturbing celebratory photos that have come back to haunt been robert smith photos of roca stress at parties where, among the I feel, jerseys and baby teach it. We can see a soldier with a coup, clucks clan costume, and it's not a big change. It's been carefully and professionally monogrammed with the words red dragon kkk. His look is completed with a burning cross, a noose. There are many other photos of soul.

Just drinking beer from the prosthetic leg of a man they killed in one of them being robbed. Smith stands behind the drinker, smiling broadly for the camera and pumping the victorious lee. These images were stored on a series of u s: basics, along with videos and classified documents, and placed in a children's lunchbox by being robbed smith, who then buried them in his back yard. He did that in twenty sixteen two years before the stories written by nick mackenzie increase masters were published. Why? Because that's when the australian defence force secretly launched its own inquiry into allegations of war crimes in afghanistan Fat inquiry would become known as the raritan report and the man leading it. Inspector general pull Raritan had ordered that the usa is soldiers had been based tearing out some instead, the lunchbox in the backyard, that's according to an affidavit filed as part of the defamation proceedings. On behalf of robert,

its form, a wife emma robins. She went on to say that she and a friend subsequently dug up the aforementioned lunchbox and handed it and its contents over two investigators in twenty twenty, for his part, been robbed smith, denies that he buried the. U s bays. He says they were kept in a desk draw in the home that he shared with his form a wife he conceded in court that he knew that at least some of the material on the. U s face was classified sacred and that he understood he wasn't authorized to keep secret classified information at his home, but he said he didn't know it was a criminal offence is believed to be one of three former essayist soldiers have emerged, the main focus of the office of the special investigators analysts, the office of the special investigator was established in twenty twenty one in the wake of the breton report to examine allegations of war crimes committed by members of the estonian defence force in afghanistan. If robots, we haven't

young soldiers we probably never defended about what happened in afghanistan under his watch did and we never would have won our case inside just explain what flooding is it's it's. A young soldier to get there first kill by executing a prisoner or civilian and yeah, we came to realize what it was about, make sure you had dirt on someone around you get around with robertspierre patrol it's a dirty patrol, we're gonna get, but on your hands, and so you never ever be out arrest on any of us and a number paper. We believe what we're blooded and I know some of our witnesses were so horrified that, in fact, I know some of the witnesses. Some of the whistleblowers said now on a care, and this is the tough when I don't agree with this, but I've certainly heard it. I don't care if, in Robert smith, executes a taliban prisoner, even if it's against the rows of war, the laws of war. I don't care if he does, that

the ban their bad. They are disagree with that view, but let's heard they said, but if you want to do that, do it yourself, I get some young boy. Colleagues, first tour to but because you are going to ruin this guy's life to me it is a next level of psychopathy to insist upon destroying young blacks, and that is what I mean. That's that's, that's bullying. You know just the fact that he was sorry high profile, Ben Roberts smith. I was thinking sticking to my husband about it. You know there's a lot of victoria. Cross medal recipients who just keep a low profile. They don't I mean it could be a burden to get a victoria cross, even though it's this big thing, but he was so high profile that is perverse to isn't it yeah We know who you really are and then to seek out the fine. This level. Perversion too, that don't you think nick It's it's tosh. If I'm pretty terrifying, the easiest first psychopathy have been roads with people in it,

Recital is that he's like the lance armstrong of the military in our blackie having main court and I was down these lies either an over and over again, whatever the human cost and the human race, leaves knees, wake it better. Is this story? Is I'm gonna wanna keep saying this is why I think that spain redemption, because soldiers confounded that darkness and and I, have, I told the truth, and I said this is not what it is to be an australian and what it is to be in the usa is, and as no matter how rich and powerful and well back spin off its committees and not at a thread she sees sitting to me, my family. I will stand up and tell the truth, because that's the wider restore the owner of the regiment. He made it clear that all of the things that he's demanded from others the loyalty their brother hoard he has shown.

None of those things for the other main, but if you want to be his witnesses, god almighty, you'd, be pissed off at his three blogs person: five person, eleven persons, thirty five, but certainly person, five posts, eleven they both covered. used personal, having participated in the execution of lt gen person. Five, I resort to add two executions whiskey when I white opinion they used to send out it hasn't done. Please cause I've been dragged to court by robert smith to get to have his back. They have. The fans have been perjures themselves, I've given evidence now on ice law donors about their own involvement in war crimes which are subjected active investigation. This is a disastrous outcome from those Nothing in it for them, except this Ben was paying their and their legal fees, and the judge said that stocked our heaven to that wasn't the the legal term for bicycling yeah. They were thou a bonded to him through this financial debt of obligation, and

what partly explained why they lied. But the organ in some of these witnesses is rather like it. It's so colorful person. Five lies for his teeth leaves the court get blindly. I ve been orbits with that nodded are at a pub. It goes back to his hotel. The I've pay The office of special investigations is waiting with a warrant to seize I find that he's a war crimes aspect I can see it blows up at them and there is a bit of it gee biology refused to give their fine he's charge with hindering a commonwealth investigation. Now those charges were dealt with for the courts. It was. Relatively minor matter. Did I fancy giving it it's in the trial of a saint if I trial of the century and then behaving like that hours later person, thirty five an hour still denied It testifies or thereabouts. The ass before testifies he's out there putting on social media posts. Calling your lawyer, I think it's worth something like if you're being questioned by- I see some excuse, my f Todd lawyer

a snake logic. He's got his math rat bright round his lectures spotty dick you know where he obey when their war comes, he'll, be phased out in the mud, blah blah blah. So this witness phenomena smith's witness locks this post ass. The first testify clearly its swat of a pretty nasty aggressive swipe at the barrister. Our barrister, going to be questioning him. That way of having a look at his social media week. We will look at, and, oh my god he's done this. The very first question is asked: did you lock this or the system, what what is it? What does it mean, and you could you say that the blood the out of him that it is facing the stand yeah. What is it about from aid? Just about these costs? Have no respect for the law. small band of people in afghanistan, but also respect for the law in australia- I mean there is a meaning to your eyesight. You swear to tell the truth. The whole truth. And I just look- I laughed at that- I would call it out

arrogance has been exposed for that it is the piteous day that you now leave with. I mean what sort of insight as this process. The reporting of it, the main that you ve gotten to know, and their partners, the men and women the families you ve gotten to know both he and in afghanistan and now the process it you ve been through. What sort of inside is that, given you are just as eurostat? I could actually feel blacklist so from the very emotional united. None of my experiences anywhere near the trauma suffered by those who served it going to war and they have tended to deal with this in back in court it. I want one, sorry he called became really cloisters served with the usa. Is It can testify in court not always fan him too lucky. He was happy, go lucky the guy in the many years I got to know him. He was

She never knew that he had these damon's, except when he got to court. He was ripped apart by been Robert smith's barristers and I got a psychological records engage suffered from from some mental health issues, like many people, do you like. I do never notice any do eat, always hidden it to me, but that got his record. They pushing him on a well, you painted the cycle, what's it like seeing dead people in afghanistan, can't be nice, nice kennedy in those twenty twond aside. Those are you not you not reliable, because if you have mental health stress their that attack with norway, the I found this witness to be absolutely reliable, but contain these after he gave. Evidence he went into the adjoining room with with their our council, and you know it broke down and For me, I know it and he was. She was crawling on the phone and this is a black, I have his I know and end that's what the experienced it to him. A battle, hoddan veteran and

I will never forgive then Robert Smith, for instructing his barristers and those that is to attack. He instructed he's berossus to attack These guys in the usa is the witness box, knowing that the attacks relies. Knowing the he's lying nuttin, sir Robert with near these gases are simply acting on instructions, but robert smoothly You guys are totally cherries and now mentally unwell, thou accord, cowards, I would derided they were belittled and I were made to relieve terrible trauma. That's a really really unpleasant part of his case, the other person to acknowledge organs and all the witnesses coptic, in either cross examination is a horrible place today they all corrupted personal business have contained victimised domestic violence. Now I call part of her. Allegation. Mobile reported that she was punched was was not found to be true. According to the evans given to the court it didn't the evidence or standard, but was found to be content.

literary sir Robert Smith's case it at that. In tray was thrown out the judge whether also found the person seventeen there was subjects to correct, you ve, controlling, intimidating, appalling behaviour by Robert smith threats, violence, threads, burn down you, how sort of fritz she withstood absolute prepare. In the box prison seventeen with with courage in ireland, that's to be remembered as well. In rapid smith's ex wife took the box and it was absolutely handed and withstood it with grace and carried Everyone was put to the ringing here, so you talk about my trauma, piles into insignificance compared to what all these witnesses enjoyed cause. I caught that from the media as well. Didn't I consent was a concerted effort funded by I am a media conglomerates, yeah like to discredit everyone in this. In probably yourselves and chris masters, I imagine terry, but that would have been doubly hot.

not just in the courtroom. It was unbelievable. Well, maybe was made in the press. Either neither niver again christina lsd yes guys in person, seventeen had they named suppressor. Nobody knows who they are. Of course they might know. They are this smearing in tabloid tactics, I still to shake my head: there's nothing more low. In my mind, failing Jane. I worked with the defamation, barrister or lawyer death of someone who is it. I'm not saying that been dismissed lloyd's. Did these produced the general principle of hypothetically anyone working, against another reporter say to set of smee them to help the person's during the woman, She doing that and if you will seek yourself choice of a journalist and one can So there was a tabloid newspaper which attack one of our key witness is a guy called John Macleod, John Macleod.

Policemen, who became a private investigator and worked for Robert smith roberts? We ve got him today, dirty acts basically in and this blood, the crab was unwitting. You didn't realize what are you saying so, for instance, rabbits. We ve got into post some letters to unite too busy Given these to the post office, we declared does not know, what's in the letters, their threats, they threats to one of them. This is saying: basically, you shut up bring it down and I'll come for you and the fact that the witness actually said in court, when he got those letters he not feed for himself. He for his family safety, macleod paced, the letters. Doesn't we now in them, he any learns watching them lighter, and he comes it. Couldn't testifies honestly about. What's happened in the judge has found a tab. it is worth threatening and robert smith organised interact macleod to pass them their prior to giving evidence. Macleod was followed by paparazzi. There is the draft he was smid in a major tabloid piper, a false allegation that in us information which he had not a was was made

too much money was paid was made in the piper totally false. So basically a whole pack of lies put about this black and why, It was, it was about intimidating him not gave evidence. I've been over smith was, was I've got an idea that intimidating this black here, what you gonna give evidence of what use me. in the five years? It was a really ugly part of his case. That went on behind the scenes. The women involved in Ben rabbit smith. Life is ex wife and also the witness. Seventeen does rather like it's dangerous like what as in seventeen went through. I read that and I dunno if women approach this story differently to men, oughta not be interesting to know your views about that in the correspondence or the the shit that you get about it, but I just thought yeah, I totally leave the is about him and the women have a call to the stand person. Seventeen emma roberts either

examination was ferocious and traumatic. The judges accepted her testimony august reading the judge. Maybe she, though there was a time was woven into the bank robber smear campaign to originally air them still together idle. They got back together, as did the brain three in august, setting herself free from him and standing up in court, greece, In addition, didn't wanna Bain court for obvious reasons that we force that accord has really done especially when you force somebody to court in indian wheat wasted painted all our witnesses. No one wanted to be there, but you know to to go to court two. How did she know? Pie entered to testify, the her name wasn't suppressed suppressed. She was fighter photographed just at Robert smith, arranged for pepper, add to take his fight. I, when he was literally like heavy shirt, running up and down since The city and the article was gushing. What legend is busy at the start of a trial? It was a titles,

I chapter make him look amazing and it's the same. Paparazzi photographed emma roberts, taking the bins out. I tried to smear her, but she's never spoken that publicly and she taped kept her grace and composure in the box and she told the truth, and I thought she she handed a self with absolute gryce, and you know when you the judgment and ultimately so much of a person seventeen was accepted by the judge? Nothing about the Robert smith said was accepted, hey, hey was found to be an absolute. Abject law is very difficult in instances of domestic violence when it happens behind closed doors, and it is cases It found that and it will the allegation of the punch. She was punished contractually true, but not there wasn't reliable evidence to to find a tribute. The contractually trade it was then that he's he's climate he'd, been defined, was thrown out This but the judge in the pit lots of people of miss this have also found that person seventeen absolutely true.

testified in day that she had been subject to this apparent camp of intimidation coercion, intro, and so what she's endured is tremendous, and I think that in the feedback I've got after the stories that war crimes dominated the case with lots of people have approved. This aren't you justified this lots of people who are very angry at may still probably still calling once again threats for daring to christian robert smith. Even now, but then it's it's largely lots of women hey if they know me in an contacted about person, seventy his eye, she's, brave, she's, courageous, and we acknowledge her telling the fact that women get and am and have made a more interested in the field of or whatever the case, I'm not sure, but I have lots of people abeyance very helen. I just look at the. It's the right killing at robert smith is left in his way now as one man caused so much destruction in afghanistan. In australia and all because he wanted

wanted to be the man. I wanted to be the biggest baddest, most famous wealthiest soldier and business person. The suffocating was working for seven. Where west is this in your jake you're going around and he always made it, he almost pulled it off looked the interesting part is this was a differ. in case. You know we have to remember that it wasn't a criminal case. Why did he bring this case about? I mean was always going to bring out all of these accusations and just publicized them and most of the estonian public didn't write your story and didn't read your stories most of the estonian public at the very least. Even if they were aware of your stores in and the accusations in the beginning, would it

you know, I think and held him in such high regard, that they might have thought nah. I dunno, if it's true or not, but this case was always going to put a lot of pressure on been robbed psmith. So I've never understood why why these case it happened, really do think that he thought if he could win this case, it would make criminal prosecution likely the question you ask. You start your day, one of the questions that are still ask myself: the siting everyday. Had he not us as stories about it would have been a fortnight that now and would have ever remember in writing the book about him did. A lot of research sparked a lot of people very close to him and tried to our what position and when they neither committed shocking executions to go to court I'd like them, sign. Piker play. You could imagine that the biggest bluff, someone who's observed progress before the closely

two comments in not tease out both of them. As I said, a joy, the correct deprive follow him in the in the book. Number one simple thing. I said robert, who has always been a winner. Son of a supreme court judge best private schools joins the usa, is received Tori across metaphor, gallantry becomes a national icon becomes extremely wealthy. Has the backing of carry stags? He was No one had ever said. Knight aims. Are the idea that a couple of men I should Baghdad eyes who did challenging and then the court system was not gonna put him to account. Pay has been roberts so these are do that he was above reproach, always the winner and then what is at some point to resist this idea of nurses. The other critical thing. I learned that he said he said missus well back. He I'm gonna be famous or infamous. and it was if you didn't mind, being either

again, this is nurses, and this is somebody wants to be spoken about almost regardless of what is being said. So I think it was this idea that he could actually with by sheer force. Personality, create this call storm and steer everybody down, no one would have the guts to take him on it. Always he was going to win again media and in doing what he's down in autumn. Italy and the other point you mike had he won the case. Would he be prosecuted No, I think, there's no way out. He doesn't distraught here would have ever taken him on. Had he divided us, the video say huge ends. It would have been real warning to prosecutors in the criminal irena disguise one months in the civil courts unite, go after that. You peril now think about this. All these seven since that was hidden in the various war crimes inquiries which prosecutors

investigators can't get out because it's so behind history shows that the Breton inquiry use special powers to give in should about rabbits. We thought those powers made that information sometimes can never to use Robert Smith's forced it all into court. On the public record on ice is got himself and his character used cause he's brutal band of brothers. for him our car keys in some cases, he got them all to commit to detailed stories on ice and he forced to have witnesses. into the stand on ice. Have now given visceral in detail accounts of his work. In that event is now where once was hidden in the public debt where it can be used to inform future investigations what and I go like. I think I will rate about these lawyers- worried about this in a hundred years about how to advise your client about protecting their interests by thing when it comes to Robert smith, he can protect the man against himself. Do you think you peel urgent over there he'll appeal or not. We would welcome an appeal

superior cork and why the facts that justice blancos widen and would would reach its own conclusion. That's just as working and that's it. That's the system being offered smith give up and I we noticed about him- he's aggressive. He will bend the law to his will They will do whatever it takes to get away with his crimes and he'll blame everyone, but himself- and I'm sure, he's doing that now, I'm sure he hasn't given a moment's thought to any of the soldiers Through the ringer testified against him. I'm sure you given a moment's thought to those young black sea budded, I'm sure, doesn't give who hates about allergens, kids- and that's all you need to know about been reports with this is like probably the most massive story of your korea, its feel senate's, what it should be, and it would have been pretty great, I think, to act with christmas. it is who I imagined was a good support to yeah he's a he's, a he's, a living legend of journalism and he's seventy four. Now I think and

there is still one he's a legend. He was my hero on before, but I was his research, you back in two thousand and four add four corners and I remember about watch some odd ray what she's programs you know interesting. I came here I wanted to be his stories were just devising a menu and you get to know him and you realize he's got a sense of humor. He likes a fat judge who doesn't take too seriously, and and peace can be commercially. Our bastard is wrong, but deep down their throats outside to him in there and to see him the scientists to look at him, but something somewhere between her ass, a really good night and a father, and it's it's a pretty everybody's got with lots of people, the military in for him. He sees connections to the military, united states reported on military is far longer than I his connection to pay. up and down the chain of command is deep. In a body and the fact that he is prepared to take on this unpopular story an impact. Those friendship caesar

you need to know about greece's integrity. What keeps me I need some of your family My love, I wasn't kids in chechnya I love my job and I believe- and I believe in journalism- and I believe and help people when I believe in the power of the cherries and end as is harmless sighing, and are you ready is your last story. The literally you are you. We win roberts reason in my god walking the news roaming the outside, or so Similarly, almost like there's a round of applause and paper goes, it wasn't nothin. Translation but it was relief, and then it's like right back back to work, in all, I believe in in what I do and that's when you have a job where you sit alive straight in bed at night. Sometimes it gets tough job, it's a crappy job and there's a lot going wrong. Journalism in this country, but you know if you can do a bit good along the way just a little bit. Then it really helps help she rum cannibal. Stress. The comes to the job as well.

Thank you to our guest today, gentlest nick mackenzie, and I forget to check out the shy knights to this episode and our social media to priority or copy of his book crossing the line, the story of the fight to expose one of the greatest military scandals in austrian history. If you need support after listening to these podcast, you can call lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen or contact one, eight hundred respect on one eight hundred seven, three seven. Having three two or one, eight hundred respect, not old dog. I! U indigenous australians, can contact thirteen yon on thirteen. Ninety two, seventy six or thirteen yon, not old daddy! You thank you for downloading this episode of australian. True crime will be back next week.