Well come on come on an armchair outward experts on export, I'm dyin shepard, who joined by Monica lily, patman hi. How are you good? I made a ball and asia if you did, how did it turn out as good as the last batch you gave me? I think so because I had lie started earlier, so I didn't feel so rushed oh okay. I really could chop those onions fine on the garlic yeah. The garlic use. Most slice cause you don't want to burn so you wouldn't it's not good for you cause you. Would you a break out soccer maybe we're the ate a shitload of Atlantis. So good I mean let me now. I have access and I want to go free noodle. That's him a fridge saxon or at least saxon over lazy acres. it's delicious glad. You finally found a gluten free pasta and that in fact, it made me want to make my own in a long time. Here's this now you ve now dear friend, if not better,

This is a rare occurrence. It's the first time ever that you and I independently, read books that we both loved on the same level and then we both were starving to talk to the author which, as such We talked about it in the episode. It's incredible the privilege to be able to fall in love with the book and get to talk to the fucking author. It's like what I dreamed about as a kitten. I would never trade that I like the way with the way I also happened. I also read it which, as we have declared, is fairly rare. In these circumstances, only. I dull and I act more as the audience. yeah I will say, even though I am so glad. I recognise that I mean knowing more. There are parts were talking about the book, it's like it's good, I dont really,

right because we we can't have everyone on the inside, exactly equal, haven't read it. I don't know what you're talking about rang. What people don't hear on the show which is cut out is like age. I often get too, as so terek with the gas, because they know this jack matter really well and I just brushed up on it. So we can depart from what the general audience might know. A new constantly go all that a second. I don't think anyone is following this at this point. Yeah so but its harder, if I'm also outside the bubble. Yes, I wear this episode, so close, really bad! You doubtless know do listen! It's my favorite of the year! Ok, oh yes! So use of this in the vat check. This isn't a responsible. We just said yeah barbara king solver. She of course wrote or favorite book of the year demon, copper head from so prone to get wrong. I say copperfield somebody want to bet which makes sense. You don't make sense, but Barbara. She won the pulitzer prize for the book this year, but she's

written a ton of other beautiful books, the poison, would bible on sheltered, the bean trees, flight behaviour and I I urge everyone to go. Get demon, copper head in, hopefully this or what your appetite to read it cause. It is phenomenal she's, so I'm inhaler than the book. He's better than the book please enjoy Barbara king solver Is it not the. Already here she made a very I'm so happy this is a very exciting smell, great our desert,

yeah. I know he be a mixture. Good farrell makes it the candid morning most thrones and Yeah brown lebron that sounded a little bit like a euphemism, for my breasts, oh well. It will provide a clear that marble welcome. Thank you This is a little self indulgent, but I'm just gonna tell you and occurred to me what so exciting about having you here is. If you would have told I I don't know him my teens and twentys that I could have put down fear of flying then gone and spoken with Erika young or I could have put down catcher in the rye and then talk to you. The cylinder, I'm having a very big moment where I can't believe I get to read a book fall in love with it and then talk to you. It's like very exciting, forming well That's so much better than if you said why china hated your book, but

a chance to redeem yourself with me over Barbara, I know the pulitzer scheme that you had a good job, but I will give you my standards when you are young. Who would you have most wanted to have talked to after reading there, but me and will it depends on how young like when I was twelve, Charles dickens or louisa. May I caught that's a toss up then later doors lessing, I actually did get to meet tourists lasting. She was an icon for me and my late teens early twice these. What was she saying that you're, like all right, that's kind of how? I think, thanks for saying that the first books of hers I read worth the Martha quest novels the children of violence. I don't know that there are all that well known. The last of those five novels is the golden no books which people do know about, but the series begins in what then rhodesia. So she was writing about what was called. Then the color bar

so she was writing about racism and she's writing about sexism and what year the EU ballpark, in the fifties, sixties. Okay, those were the first novels that helped me understand what literature can really do, what it can talk about, what it embrace what it can change, what it can challenge how it can make you feel uncomfortable or in my case it was more like articulating these, pressures on me that you didn't know, haven't name right living in a place that was segregated living in a world. Where all the women I knew wives now was their job. They were not encouraged to go, educate the your programme, and it wasn't even about encouragement. It was about the options I mean. I just grew up looking around seeing that men round the world

It seems like they still do, but you can use president's yeah. There were authors along the way from louisa may alcott little. Women is the first novel. I remember reading that just took me completely away from where I was, which was the back of a station wagon going on some long long, family patient posed congo yeah yeah you're reading the book at six, no, I was hurried, nine or ten was she could have been He bore me: do the house: how is it then? I went to medical school. I was an early reader. Actually I remember the first word, that I read it now. I do because you know hurry, you remember the things that study new charges. Of course, while I was three, I know that because of where we live and my dad was a reader when he was home. He had his face in a newspaper or even the cereal box. On the

but whatever there was that had pretty was reading it, and I just number watching him and thinking what there I want. me. Some of that, whatever is getting from those words and I knew I had probably beleaguered my mother to teach me the alphabet. I knew the alphabet, I remember my dad laying down a newspaper and go into work and I climbed up a mechanics, and I opened that newspaper and just stared at it saying come too the word, and I were just pick out words and say the letters and I saw o r e g. And it became orange like that? appear that flavour and that whole experience just broke out, It was like an orange from these huddle assemble from those yeah that first experience of the symbol becoming the experience like going straight into the brain. I mean. How could you forget that ok great

I was gonna see two seconds ago, but this is yet another example of writing. reading his magic. There by magic that have just as of crazy symbol. There's no way that should make you think of the smell or taste or visual of an orange. Likewise, the magic trick of literature say little women is that if I write in opinion, peace, a nonfiction peace and I make a claim about how the world should be or how it is it's quite like

to induce defensiveness. If I ask you only to join this character on a journey and you personally, your identity is not a threat. That's a magic trick where you can leave people with fiction is really magic. I completely agree with you. I say this all the time. It is a kind of truth. It makes me really sad to hear people say while they don't have time to read fiction or it's like secondary somehow to journalism, it's another kind of truth, but its magical, as you say, because journalism in forms, you gives you information, point about, defensiveness is exactly on point. You can decide. Oh do I believe this or not, but fiction is the only medium we have that takes you inside. other brain, it's an empathy machine. You are, you actually put your life down on the bed side table or whatever, and you put on the life of another person, so their king

Are your kid yeah? Your worries are your worries and you feel their fear. It's even deeper than empathy is losing yourself inside Another life and there's nothing to replace that, and I think it's awfully imported, to learn. I mean not necessarily at age three but learn when you're still young enough to train your brain to do that without defensiveness of thinking about what am I reading yeah. What are they asked me to do right? What array and are they asked me to support or denying right? And what is the symbolism here or whatever just to learn, to read fiction and do that magical thing of pudding fiction on when you're young enough that your brain, I think, still has the it's to enjoy a cause. I'm afraid that, if you don't like it

now it is harder to learn that path ass later on in there's so much going on, like we could look at bio chemically right. The party of your brain, that's activated, while reading a bit of news is like generally to fall under the umbrella if you're looking at this empathetic human experience, which predates all of our political opinions, predates Oliver we're civilized governments, everything it's the truest thing that we can tap into yeah. It's just really magical yeah. I like what you just said. That is the truest thing we can tap into well. I was trained as a biologist. This excites me greatly. I'm an anthropology major we're both sitting here. Serious anthropology was my minor in graduate school, and so I'm really interested in the, human condition as we were for three hundred before this little blip of history, where we began getting all our information not from people but from an intermediate, we evolved. As social animals we evolved to receive

information from people, we also evolved to be very quick, to judge friend of foe angry about exactly all of those things are just in us, and so I think it's interesting that fiction is the one medium of gaining information that kind of replicates the human experience the early storytelling getting the experience from another person, and the advantage is that we can get that him nation from someone who's not in our family or our grew a strategy from a stranger who lives in another side of the world, is a way that we can experience the other. Without that all the values of otherness you can tell a port in reading, you can time travel unreasoning every We would hope that would be invented exist in this three thousand year old tradition. Oh my god yet makes me. so. It is sub letting you think about the aliens. Let's imagine they can't read.

Wow. They made it all the way here, but can't read: they're looking at us and they're like what's going on with those people they're just staring at a paper and they're, crying or laughing think it's a slightly bigger phone or they have these really big phones occasionally seems to be in bed, and my untrained me looking at my dad when I was like what is it? What is the magic there? Clearly it is barely holding him their yeah. That's what the ourselves will This is what the internet has become over time, but certainly when I was young to be in holding caulfield sprain and go out, there's another person it feels like it feels like this place is really abstract. The feels like this is all arbitrary that these rules and all this stuff is very confusing. I hadn't talked to another kid at school, nor was I likely to bump into one that felt the way I did the comfort I got out of a world minimally, there's another one to me in this fictitious world right that feeling that someone has just touched on the shoulder

yeah me too, while as they say, it's windows in its mirrors. Both are really important to see yourself. and to see somebody that you'll? Never me someone who's a different gender or so different that the only where you can really experience their reality is through a novel, yeah. Okay, so you already hinted at it, which is you majored in biology and got masters in ecology and evolutionary biology? Let's go back even further. Dad was a physician you're born than turkey actual has borne in maryland. He was in the navy, but I don't remember that part we moved out unless you are a boy out. Ok who can assist with my earliest memories, are from eastern kentucky and I just want to tell you more self indulgent. So all my families from hazard kentucky my mama's warner. Nineteen, fifty one so similar feminist. All these things. So much of your story I feel very connected to, but

growing up in kentucky up to. I guess: seven you go to the congo yeah. Always it that's. Why I didn't stead of second grade. Ok, let's give second grade and louis right on wheels congo, which then was a was the republic of congo. Then we were there right after independence. Oh, oh just a minute after le mumble was killed, it was still up in the air and it has become the dictatorship that it was under two. Yet I was right in between the horrible colonization and the horrible. What the cia helped to impose or after a moment of hope for the congo, not Any of that was especially relevant. We're here you will have because we were in a place. It was so rural that I'm just gonna say it's pretty hard for you to imagine guess, is no plumbing, no electricity, no cars! You got your water from the river, you didn't need to study and throw you lived it. You did fieldwork you're doing it s magazine seven years, the hold. It really changed, my life. It was a deep dive into

the notion that what is true right in good in one place can be very different in another and for example, I never thought about being white before and then I went to place where nobody in the village had seem white kids before they had maybe seem like adults, were they fair fascinated by you, but that's one word for gravity. He answered yeah like why do you have any skin Why are you here- and I had really long here, which kids just kept trying to pull up was a blonde like that, so confusing it wasn't, but it was long yeah you re. It was just like what is this weird stuff you have on your head, so I was very self conscious and my brother and I just tried to learn key tuba and keep up with these kids, who were so competent by the age of probably nine or ten. All the kids in key congo were doing basically adult work. The girls were taken care of younger siblings.

The boys were finding food, climbing trees to get birds out of a burden ass to eat or have you and I just felt really like useless person. there is a very interesting way to discover a sense of race really quick. So there was there doing healthcare yeah, it was it religious, zero, religious component. I will say that a lot of the social services that existed in the congo after independence, because the belgians didn't allow congolese people any education at all. So when the belgians laughed, there was sort of a dearth of doctors, any kind of professions, and so there were religiously based groups that organise things like what you would say: doctors without borders now to get people into places in kind of help with education, social welfare stuff. So there was probably a group of missionaries who helped sat up

this arrangement might. I had just was born with this vocation. He just wants to help people that really really needed medical care, and so we ve spent most of our time in eastern kentucky, pretty poor regions, in the country, but now and then he just get a wild hair and he would talk to a colleague and say well, where do people need a doctor more? Where would I be the only physician within you know like five hundred miles it yeah? I want to see leprosy seriously and we did I mean my sister was two. I was seven. My brother was nine and when I imagine taking my kids this situation. I can not, because I mean we all have malaria, my whole had one thing or another, but I wouldn't right that out of my history, I could get me who I am in a big way. Did you know was temporary yeah well you're scratching in the wall, five

leaders knowing like this is for. I would feel unilateralism permanent, it was a huge adventure. I really did do this. Instead of a second grade, there was no schooling, my brother and I were just Harold children, we reduce laughed our own device, is, I think my mother was trying to keep the two year old alive and try to figure out what to feed us man. Yet there were hard things. Not having enough to eat for one year. We would go debts incredibly altruistic, but So if I'm the child of debt, I can also say little ego maniacal to drag all of us. You know you have a hair up your ass. Now we all have to join. You not eat food friend yeah and here's the wife who says whither, thou goest. You know ok, honey yeah. I wouldn't do that.

leave it at that. The Congo's just an example, the place where I grew up in kentucky and the public school system, I mean less their hearts. There were teachers trying hard, but we had so little funding. Even the efforts that have been made since the kind of equalize like state, testing and stuff didn't exist, then so High school had one science course and it was called science. I never did homework. I don't remember, really learning anything in school. How did you get into deport I'm on a question here, so it was like this in congo. It was like this throughout my childhood. If I wanted to know something, I had a figure it out. We had books in the house. My dad is mentioned was a reader iii. Red poetry to us. Are member really early, my dad reading Robert burns to us

like poem about allows her, how you going the crowd and fairly howard. That goes just this fascinating words was always there and we had books and we The vote will be on the library, and so I just supplemented wasn't even supplementation. It was like that was the primary. I was an autodidact, for example, Brother now decided we were gonna, read the encyclopaedia Britannica. I started at the zoo. We all know me, I'm glad you're tunnel and by the time we made we're gonna know ever yes. Well together our thinking. If I were a team- and we will know everyone can resolve our? U god we are pretty far that to happen my brother and I had a lot of plans, but they would run at us to build a raft and go across lake Michigan yeah. We had those plants too, but we learned morse code, my brother and I taught

that was the morse code and we ran this wire through the register I room to his, and so we were gonna like pop out it's real a tedious. Like? Are you asleep, that will do that could think. On the one hand, it was really pathetic, but you can think that, on the other hand, we were just figuring out. whatever we needed to know. and finding out how to learn things. I feel like that, served so allow armas give ya. You have to learn all the stuff which known once they have to do anything, but if you're, just on your own quest for knowledge at an entirely different, However, I think that is why I'm a novelist I just feel like. I can do anything like that, doesn't sound. How do you feel competence? The opposite is felt in congo. You became to feel yeah or anything. I need to know anything. I need to become an expert. I care

it? Kinda sounds like you're on gilligan's island a little bit yeah without the comedy they'll just skipper. You know when I see people worrying a whole lot about getting their kids into even the best preschool. Well, man worrying so much that kids will be at a disadvantage somehow in this horse race of education, if they don't get the best and the best and the best, and I had to figure out how just to get to go to college cause people in my high school. Didn't nobody told us? Oh, you need to take the ass, a tea or anything like that. My brother and I figured that out firmer eating from thence. I thank god. You had your brother, bigger than the asses read this and I get fat tat. Only my brother, I wear a team. It would have indifferent to be so low, but I didn't even know of the existence of the ivy leagues. This was a catalogue story. I got into the bar on a music scholar,

Are you crazy shit? Yeah yeah? I was a pianist and that's kind of how I got through high school intact was losing myself in music and playing the piano. I also played other instruments, and that was sort of my social group, which was outside of the little town where we lived. I went to piano competitions, ovens of my fur, boyfriend was another piano players. I lose his hot opium julia out of their a couple at a piano bar doing through an exactly so yeah. I just figured out because we needed scholarships, and so I got myself to depart. They had a good music programme and addition didn't got in on a piano, scholarship and aids. Is that while this work was at all, urging you to pursue medicine or were you not? inclined to pursue medicine, you obviously hold him in high regard. When I was young. I wanted to do everything I remember wanting to be a doctor and a farmer.

I dunno fly, airplanes, not that that was really an option concert pianist. Yeah I wanted to do everything and I found a way yeah exact hours. You get to be everything. What a every boy I remember. I didn't really know that women could be doctors that was unclear to me. That's back in the day were the riddle. May come from the riddle during when we were kids, there was a riddle. Ojeda doktor is not. during his son or driving inimical or an accident, the father dies, the sun's rushed to the o r and then The operating surgeon says I can operate on him he's my son. How is this possible- and I was completely flummoxed by that riddle as a kid in my kids' us than that and they're like there's, not even one are there no way is the majority of students and medical now are? Women is actually one of the encouraging things have witnessed that we told them that riddle, and there like this, is an original yeah right.

What is wrong with you, but no, I do remember thinking about being a doctor, and I remember kind of this. Turning more my life, and I realized. I couldn't do that because of empathy. I would who had two or three marcia. No, no, the opposite. I guess maybe a little opposite my dad! I knew I would be to invest it. I thought that if I have to see people die, I will die. You aren't so interested in a single, proceed. He was known it felt too painful to me to put my whole life into people's pain. I just couldn't go there right. You know, I didn't know what I would do. I just knew I needed to get to college because all over the women that I knew growing up were completely dependent on man financially and, frankly, not very happy yeah most

indentured servants aren't hobbies yeah. Exactly that's how it felt to me. I wanted to get out of indentured servitude and college was going to be a ticket and when I got there, it took me ten minutes to figure out I'm not going to be a ass pianist, maybe they're like ten june The openings and I wasn't in the top ten, so I realized that was not going to pan out as far as the financial security end of things, so I I switched to biology because it seemed solid. If I learn science, I can get a job and I didn't think I was going to be a writer ever whoa great cause. Look at your trajectory! I'm curious when that starts to seep in. I obviously know when you start writing, but at that point. We need joint biology again, you have a lot of fantasies which I appreciate, but what is the primary fantasy that will happen after you get this biology degree? Do you think you'll teach? I was in fact clear. I just thought I really like learning this staff. It really collect. I really love science, meals, sexy yeah, yeah. Well,

sexy yeah. No, I just loved learning it, and I figured this is practical I'll get a job. I didn't really nail it down. I still wanted to just do some living. I guess I wasn't yet ready to give up on the I'm going to do everything you go to france immediately. after graduating. For a year I soon see the world. I got one of those two hundred dollar icelandic air ticket. I got interrupt you. This usually takes me. The entire episode to do, I know how it is you, savers, marrow story out. well fuckin st you have such a young quality. It's crazy, usually that a lot of people ask me if we're related voices really similar to yeah we're to say that at like four minutes into that sounds like

the noise. Monica is we'll have like a really profound professor on or something and I'm so distracted by what movie star they metaphysically thing like that in the middle of an embargo on which we are now well. Ok, here's the difference between our me. I don't have a star on that yeah yeah. You know, she's, ok, sorry! Back to france! I just got that two hundred dollar one way ticket that you could get icelandic air and hitchhiked all over europe. I did whatever jobs that you could do. I worked on archaeological digs. No kidding. one in northern france finance. Our bones, but that's why we're after northern gall asterisks awesome units sort of failing to this french commune? We do know each other well enough. He ever did you take her.

the french lover, of course yeah. Yes, okay, wonderful yeah, I'm just you know just one thing led to another. I lived in paris for a little while again living with a whole bunch of people in a small apartment. Just the things you do, then I worked in york, england for a while. I just moved around and did staff and just experience life. How did you know it was time to come home because I work with iran out. Ok, how to add that I knew it was our version in your mind that you would stay forever and yet why not your five and the best time your whole was- and I really liked looking back at my country and not being there were things I missed mostly having to do with are so hard to explain. There's something about the way americans reveal ourselves to each other kind of an immediate closeness that you can establish. Like this conversation we're having

could not happen in Sweden, any wouldn't have any friends. Do you not having said no, and it wouldn't happen in the uk, I think that aspect of american culture is probably moving european cultures in the I think we have a historical explanation for that which is like we were the most multicultural place on the planet. If any group of people with their high double mean levels contrast, stranger That's a site in these homogeneous populations have a much different everything yeah also word apex, individualist capitals, we gotta get out there and sell ourselves. We've got to connect right, it's all in the stew. That's the part I didn't yeah, but I'm a very verbal person and while I became comfortable in french, I never was fluent enough to completely relax into words that I was in a job where my supervisor had to lie me on to say I was doing something that no french person could do, of, which was not to build a mcdonald's franchise,

yeah little did they know you could do something that no one else could do that they didn't know yet, and it wasn't proven yet. Okay, you have to come home. How do you then get two tissues on arizona, visible I shut my eyes were lose all I need to see the west. I figured I'd stay a couple of weeks. Honestly. Aha, I mean I had probably a hundred fifty dollars in my pocket and I just thought I'd go see the west see what happens and I got a job learning. apartment. Then I got a boyfriend and the next thing you know it's like a house and a kid and wow. That's where the rolling stones started. Gathering moss right. Do you feel trap someone with such wanderlust and an appetite for all experiences I mean I would have just rolled on if I felt trapped. I wouldn't have thought of it this way until this very moment, but I spent most of the

twenties running away from the notion of being trapped. Just because I grew up feeling so afraid of them so determined not to be that woman who's tied down that becomes it's own trap. I was very reluctant to commit to relationships to jobs, to place to anything. I didn't have a home and we haven't really talked about waiting. I don't suppose you need to. I always wrote I gotta diary when I was eight years old. Somebody gave me that diary with the little we are at it. You did oh yeah yeah that key hole that could be opened with Bobby and fear or you could is poured applies tired and let you would have found in my seven year old diary was then I read a book and then We have a bad, only really boring so like my client, by along with reading. Writing was just that private thing. I did to process

experience, and my diaries did become more interesting and my teens and more confessional and thoughtful eye to start room young there is also the element that I can't actually go. Have this adventurous life? I want right the second, but I can have it on paper. They too diffuse more air, it's funny or not, too long ago, cleaned out the childhood home and found this cache of my short stories that I wrote when I was between the ages of eight and thirty and every single one of them was about a little boy with some kind of terrible disability. They were all in the rural person. I am a boy with one leg. I am a blind or a liar boy with one leg, but you were in an environment where you were exposed to.

a lot of voice with one layer. Yes, I am a boy with elephantiasis. I don't know what that was about it, but I just didn't want to be a girl was what it was very limiting exactly. So I think that my fantasies of being boys or base in that but the option Would you couldn't escape? Are you really felt which was disabled was disabled dancer I at least in, but writing these fanciful stories, an arrow poems, and I also feel like writing about what I lived through. I was always really conscious of I'm. Getting a way which is a way thing a meme kids aren't supposed to worry about time flying by, but I did may because I was seeing people die of If you have a million fantasies in a romantic inner life, you're finance

at the time you're aware of that. That's really good point. I was constantly like we gotta get the show on the road like if we're gonna do all these things I want to do. Can I really wait till twelfth grade before I head out to california? You know yeah, I would say I'm a very impatient person. I have always had to cultivate patience, that's something I have to. On top of that year. Yeah like more in a hurry. You are thus there the antidote if you're struggling with visions currently have a baby. I feel like you could not be this capitalist girl, but you could sell them. short stories, so much money. I give them the charity, but money wow, I love to read

We should make a good job for a team about me. I could get can't know you were you going back to time. I just felt like time is this river and I can't turn it down and writing about what I did today. What happened today, what I saw thought or what hurt today or what I accomplished today. It's gonna nail that river to its banks, that's how I felt, and so that was the reason I wrote not really for anything else, but me and I kept doing that in college I wrote cause. I was a science major and I didn't have elective. I took one creative writing course, and I loved my creative writing professor such new you're good. At this. You should take him. Oh, no, no, no, I'm and to take chemistry in physics, but my chemistry in physics, books have poems in the margins and mary like homes about electrons, but I felt like it

Nobody knew I was doing. They would think. I was, and syria writes about frivolous growing up in a working class culture and the working class place? Do you dont say you want to be? artist when you grow up well, at least in Kentucky. You don't say that, because it seems use hoity, toity it's what we do too yeah yeah yeah. It feels upper class, it feels rich. We hate rich people, exactly it's self indulgent luxury, it's putting yourself above it like I'm, not one of you. It's like saying, I'm going to be meryl streep when happen. I asked yes, I just kept this to myself. Can I see as a boy's, a young boy growing up in very blue color to travel area? It was gay. That was my fear. I was writing. I was being creative, and so in my little paradigm I was stuck in was that was gay because it was feminine, which also is probably part of your feeling too. You want to be a powerful woman,

means more mass gill awry me to do what the boys are doing there. Not writing poem right. That's for sure. Yes, all, while that either of us would have any thought like this thing needs to be private. Is so crazy, Yang, god forbid if you'd want to be a day, Sir. Oh no was on the table. We will as we that interviews I want you know you are going to enacted jack? All through high school meant, you didn't go to my highest active in my school to get my ass kicked in the parking lot every day, not an option. I felt for a long time after I left Carlisle kentucky being a writer was not an option saying I am a writer I couldn't imagine it yeah. I needed to be something real and practical, so I just wrote and All that time I was travelling around, I was still writing an old road poems in french god, they're, probably terrible, but I was writing and processing, and I think what hit me in to sign is: I didn't, have a voice. I was

from anywhere I rose. They have any authority. I was writing short story, said in tucson and they just felt fake justice. because those french stories that I rode there was no authenticity and also honestly, I had internalize the shame of being hillbilly. I mean we haven't even start we now know- are getting there, but just as I didn't understand, I was white until I went to the congo I didn't understand. I was a hillbilly till I went to college in a state where people stop me in the cafeteria and made me say words so that they can laugh at me february. Say yours, yan syrup. What's this syrup smells like a polecat what yeah just Marcie? my accelerating oh you're, wearing shoes how q, so I just can be raised that the acts at your hearing now I could when I am in contact your when I'm at home, when I'm talkin to my neighbours a talk the way I spoke growin up, but

little by little and not really intentionally I'd just neutralised my affect for sure, so that people will listen to what you're saying, instead of stopping at the words, really quick your arriving at a place that artists have to arrive at, which is you first start by trying to emulate things that you yourself and captivating a romantic and you can't succeed at it and then hopefully the road leads you to believe in actually, my version is worthy of telling and my voices worthy of listening to and that such a crazy road. I agree with you completely and I'd take us a step further you have to get to. I do have something to say: my voice is worthy. Furthermore, it's the only thing of god yeah eggs, riley's you're, only true esa, and if all you have out there are intended for what you think people want from you. You ve got nothing, absolutely nothing, and I

and that's where I was for a long time and when I was maybe starting to take my writing a little more seriously, even though I still hid it through grad school. But I was writing poems and starting to share them and starting to share stories. Normal writing for the school paper. You're doing science related yeah, my first job after graduate school was as a scientific writer just talking to scientists and translating what they into a less than other people could dream. But though, what do you call it? When I fell down on the road to damascus was that place you two very poetic. I was becoming aware that I had no authentic voice. Somehow was like the colleagues were catching, and somebody gave me a clutching short stories called shiloh. Another story, by Bobby and mason do no Bobby. I may never read never high right. She's kentucky in this collection, which would have been released. Early eighties, was quite renowned. but really paid attention was come of the minimalist arrows.

Wait a little like raymond carver. We ask little after that, but she's from western kentucky and all of her short stories were about people who worked in kmart and they did shift work and they were my people These stories were beautiful and they were respected. How inspirational it was like the scales fell from my eyes. It just really happen all at once. I understood what I had been repressing yeah, the enormity of the ordinary life and it can make the reader feel special. I remember those types If things made me feel special hemingway as I automaten world war, one I'm not going to sail a boat here, I don't catch marlins. I can totally relate, but it's like, I know the mundane the d. The monday I mean yeah yeah. I know that feeling so intimately and it slows down it, stops it in your own tracks and asks you to look at the lives that are being lived in your circle in europe.

neighbourhood among your own people and how brave they are. What dealing with and that that's worthy, that's literature to end my case reading Bobby and mason that I didn't to be ashamed of my people. They could be heroes of stories well and they weren't ridiculous along. I knew better, but especially when you are young, you just internalize the shame? The world tells you something out world tells you that your worthless, so I did a deep I have I read, Wendell berry I had been exposed before, but I hadn't really paid attention and I read a lot of kentucky authors and then this collection of short stories. I had been writing or trying to write add in tucson. Well, I wrote a short story set in kentucky called the one to get away this earl in high school, whose goal was to get through high school without being pregnant and

get out of there and she got this. Car had ended and have starter and strives cross country, and someone put the baby in her car and then she gets the tucson and tell the whole story that I had been trying to write with the kentucky acts. I need did that first person kentucky voice in your spelling out fanatically the access no, but that was a bean trees thousand years now right, I was being poetic. She needed to Kentucky accent. She needed a kentucky identity. I guess she needs into things. The way I saw things I'd and that finally worked, I didn't know it was working. It was clicking for me. It felt like yeah. This is what I've been trying to do so ironically, wiles ready does novel about this girl who all she won in life is not to get pregnant and an example maybe I was pregnant ghettos, happily pregnant.

I really rest that now I wrote it during my pregnancy cause. I couldn't sleep, I have all those extra hours. What again talk about making lemonade out of lemons yeah. I don't sleep very much and I call it my superpower. Maybe I should embrace that, for me too, cause I'm kind of just miserable half the night. No, no I'm serious about this embrace it. I mean so long as you can still function, because you just don't need as much sleep as others. You know my doctor was saying: oh, do something really! the tedious that you hate, like scrub literally my doctor said, get a toothbrush and scrub the grout. I said screw that I'm writing a novel. I did and I sent it off to the agent right before I had my baby, and this is the amazing true fact of Barbara Kingsolver. I got my first book.

Tracked and have my first baby on the same day on the same day, the two most several moments in your life, exactly the same, we're one moment so efficient when various rears. You know the two most important things that I in one of the cornerstones of your identity. We, and, as you can imagine, I only noticed one of them at a time you guys, like hormonal, I'm the queen of the universe. I just produce a human being present, wait what I also saw my book. I wonder if your journal from that day, I gave it to my daughter, but that's when I finally was able to say I am a rider cause. I sold novel is very little editing. One sentence, I think I changed and it was published and I got an advance that at the time that was an enormous familiarly. Any right was enough for me to live on while I wrote another book and that changed everything

yeah, so you're off to the races, that's nineteen. Eighty eight! That's right the weak it was released was the week my daughter learn to walk. So then you on a tear you of animal dreams and ninety of pigs in Heaven, which is a sequel to the bean trees? Ninety three again or early we now there was a collection of short story, is right. I had for books and four year- oh my god, because there was a backlog I had stuff. I had been working on before that I've brought out of the closet and said: well guess because, like what I am, writing you yeah. I was able to get a bunch of books out pretty efficiently in those early years because I could just live from advanced to advanced. I did some work some other freelance work which was good for me. I think to be a journalist, but I didn't have to go back to a day job. You did that Then you are supporting yourself, a warning, indentured servants. Exactly I had my own money. I could be an artist and be independent and yet

rolling in a vast. For because I want to spend a lot of time on demon, copper head. I think my publicist we would like that- and I dont know if your publicists has told you but monica- and I have already talked about different copper had I bet you forty times yes and no ass, seven months. I get this dm from time to time with expert really like I'm glad it made its way to hear that scared. Likewise, I just want to throw their the ninety four you get married to an ornithologist. We just had this incredible owl expert area and we got really deepen to bird watchers ornithologists, who was on jennifer ackerman. You know jenna fragment. I dont know her personally, but I know her work in that conversation she was very much drawn to. Watching- and I said you think if we had did generalizers stereotype, the ornithologists and bird watchers are people who very little stimuli gets them excited. In fact, probably pretty sensitive to too much stimuli is this. The case was stephen. Was that true of him

he's a rock and roll music right away? I go, and I haven't. We have rather lengthy everything was a ban and a professor of psychology guy. He canada's a lot of these appalling. Like me, I see the pirate sexy a rock and roll star anna, profound right, yeah that go out alone. Right now is the perfect guy was so I forgot what with the question I just wanted to update on this story before we landed demon. I just want to mention that you marry an ornithologist. You have a second daughter. Ninety eight you write or his release the poison would bible and that one gets a ton of attention you meet Oprah for the first time, you're shortlisted for the pulitzer and the falconer award. Oh man, you are very cemented at this point, a real tightening space. So I'm saying all this to tell you- and you admit to you my insane ignorance on you before I read demon, copper had done insane. I didn't know of you. It goes deeper

the okay? How can it be different than you do this and I'm going to name drop here, but Kevin bacon having dinner with him, and he goes, you know I don't read books. I wish I'd liked them. I just don't like them, but man. I read this fuckin book demon copperhead. I can't I believe how much I loved this book. He gave such a sales pitch that I went home at night. I went on audible, I typed in demon copperhead, it came up. I began, I didn't even look who wrote who cares doesnt matter and that they are able to go, and I feel you happened here that now it is gonna walk now other prerequisite knowledge. You must know that I fucking hated hillbilly elegy thing q I fucking hated at monica, and I had a bunch of arguments I was screaming from the rooftop. This is a fraudulent account of all of this. The person wasn't there they didn't experiencing this. This is bullshit and the one good thing about him being unwilling bill position has now? Is its prove exactly one of us? What that's the whole

Monica had to. I had to really eat my sword, so we had a lot of arguments around that because he was like, I don't buy it. I know that world and I'm also from the south I'm from georgia, so I was like well you can't assume just because it wasn't your spear like we had so many long about a disease, and then I had to be like god, you re this, for I do it's his world view. Ok, here's my complaint about look we don't even him say the name of it. Ease entitled to write is memoir the fact that that got pinched and bought wholesale. As my memoir too and german, why do the explanation of a people makes me so mad because had no context. Keaton didn't talk about structural poverty. He targets

The history of some grand dies knows well when almost after I've seen the ivy league you're only work hard enough, you can be high and the thing is it what's heartbreaking about it is that it really validated the stereotype. It was, widely. Sorry, no! You ve already eaten your show you how it was so embraced by the rest of america, because they want to hate on hillbillies. They want to look down on us. We are the less class of people that progressive people get to make fun of there's. Also a pull humans love a quote underdog. People and honour our that's what it felt like a little bit, which is very problematic because its again

model minority issue where it says everyone's boss, who we are and he's not even if you re it makes people believe, oh will. If he can do it what's wrong with everybody else leah and that's wholly wrong. A lot of us recognize structural racism, institutional racism, but structural class is just not talked about. We just had Kerry Washington on and she had two different jumping into different world experiences. One was her school was moved because they didn't want the white kids to have to bus in the bronx, so they sent everyone to this italian neighborhood. That was her first kind of cultural clash. Then she ended up going to this very, very, very expensive, on a scholarship manhattan school, and I asked her What was a bigger chasm? The racial divide, you experience when you went to the lower class italian neighborhood or the socio economic one, you experience and she said tenfold the socio economic one and I'm like that is the enormous thing that no one wants to freely.

Think there D, the new and its mad me right, because america is the class less society we really really bought that you're the fallacy of meritocracy yet ray demon, copper ahead as an answer to any thing, I want to give that guy credit for it. But when I read that I was so angry about the lack of context that it gave me this hunger to write the gray appalache and If all I wanted to somehow tell the whole story of what made us this way, it's the poorest hunk of america, it's a big chunk of america that has really terrible unemployment, terrible rates of disability and so many things stacked, against us. It's not because we're lazy I mean I can walk you through how we got that way. The coal companies literally bought everything, including the schools, including the courthouse,

is you're talking about a company town yeah, it's a company region. They deliberately kept out all other kinds of employment, so people had to work in the mines and then, when the mine stopped employing people, then there's nothing, and likewise the coal companies deliberately suppressed the culture of education. They still do in Kentucky it's even hard to explain how stigmatizing it was to be mark. I grew up hiding my brains. Yes, you know about your like a rich can't. Nobody knows any rich people, so there's no frame of reference for that, I'm gonna. Do you think you are you're better than me, yeah yeah and that's. cultural in that comes from a history of these companies that didn't want people to be smart and a family culture where they don't want you to go to college because then you'll leave. How are never see you again, so we ve all of a piece. It's not about laziness, so I wanted to write that novel and my point of entry into it. I knew it.

Be the opening up a demi, because that's just this freight train of exploitation, starting with timber, pulling out the timber and pulling out the coal than tobacco. The fact that produce farmer looked at data and they targeted us. Our exact region, was very parallel to the crack up. A demo the eightys and the victims of that the most vulnerable ways of finnish? Ok right yet, as I think, you'll get a kick out of this involves my humorous I get this book I come on here. I start talking about all the time and here's. What I am saying repeatedly on here is so epic, because I'm wrong, I, like nine accounts. So am I, but this looks the opposite of hillbilly elegy. Whoever wrote this book was in those situations like I was in, though such I had the violent stepdad. I had the young mother addiction across the board in the family and like this is an authentic. This is so live that I think on m for a while. I don't know at what point it occurs. The monica were like real time and I'm like whoa, okay, I look it up and I was like. Oh it's barbara.

Sovereign member waited the woman yeah yeah and not just a woman, like the figures of our time. it's a woman, so wait she's, not a boy That is how insanely good your book is What I honestly was on this mission to explain everyone that this is what happens when an author actually has lived the thing and blah blah blah and it turns out I'm completely wrong. I then become actually more fascinated with you, because now- and here lies most of my questions- okay, let's just talk about really quick, because it's at the about you meet the boy from the boyfriends, always a salesman and then once they buy us, then there and authoritarian it's the most specific transition? There's all these clues, I'm in that single wide one that's happening. I can remember as to how do you know that our

do you know what I lived. Do you know how you can host here's the thing about being an author, it's so much better than being an athlete or a model, or maybe even an actor, because you'd get better with age. There's no cap, the older you get the more things. You've been the more lives you've had you have wisdom. I think what we really go to literature for his wisdom. I mean we want entertainment, but really we want to come through it kind of knowing more about life. The longer you live, the more of that you have to offer the more our tissue. I remember when I was young, looking old people, oh people being like forty, probably fitter and thinking will they ve always been old right? Yes, of course, I mean I just think you still do, and so I've seen on social media. How is this grandma I know what it's like to be a teenager. You know what I was allowed to say. I'm here everything you want. Yes dammit. I was

fucking teenager erika, I remember being thirteen much better. And I remember being third five rise aim and so foundational. You feel things so intensely there. So many first there's a yard in iceland. have a teenager in me. I have all of those people have ever been still in me, many of them there unhappy happy personnel, but all lose unhappiness are still in their all of those terrible relationships that I feel lucky to have served. therein there and I remember them in every that actors when you have apart, you think about the parts of you that relate to that part. I, the same. I have been a boy, that's the one thing. I can't tell you that I have been a boy, but I have two daughters, nine years apart, so what that means is for the better part of two decades. I had Teenage boys in my house yeah. I know what They do not. They think so, there's more

of demon in me, then you might imagine particularly two things about him. One is his sense of never belonging anywhere. the impostors syndrome I mean. Finally, we have a word for this for my whole life of that. I wonder if anybody else feels like they're gonna come any minute gonna come over here and say you don't belong in this party leave now turns out. Yes, there's a name For that can we add the thing I related to, and this is pretty arrogant to say, but it's the truth. I was observing adults act deem worse than I knew was right and in ways I felt. mature than them and I knew what was right and wrong more. I felt a little special about that. I belted in him whether I projected that or not. I felt like He was seen everything he wasn't a kid that was confused by this, like he knew what the score was. He was in on it that's alienating and isolating limits.

It is. Unless I mean he kind of belongs to an underclass of kids who have to be the adults because they don't have any adults in their lives right. So I don't know that he felt special about it. It was just like yeah, I'm the one that gets mom to work on time. I am the one who finds her keys under the toilet, intuitively that that's the adults that are supposed to be doing that not you so when you're doing it there's something that you feel older than your age. I felt I should say: okay. Well, it's a little complicated in this novel because he is telling you the story from the advanced age of maybe yeah he's in his early twenties, but he's telling you it's a hero's journey right and the good thing about that is, you know, he's gonna survive. Oh man, I gotta tell you: there are a bunch of times in the book, I'm like houses, persons still telling the story yeah, but he was so, I gave you that had to be in first person and that people will be able to get through if they didn't know that

What is it exactly your address? I promise you. I don't like to read books, especially where children are in peril, especially after becoming apparent. I turn pages and look ahead. to see if the kids still alive so yeah. I needed to give you that promise, so there is a little bit more maturity in the voice and there are moments in the book where he breaks the fourth wall. He talks directly to the reader saying. Can you believe we did that and here's the deal he says. I know what you're thinking but look. This is what we had to work with. So I see what you're saying about his sense of himself. As being be special. The otherness safely, others as in there somewhere. I think when he feels like life is perfect because he's displaying the creek with his best friend maggot in my up there with her mellow, yellow and her cigarette. Saying, don't ya, put your eyes out with sticks and that's perfect, blighted greatly isles, yes and never mind that he's the one who's keeping his mom sober and getting her to work. I don't think he feels especially. You know victim

but yeah yeah victimized by that that's just kind of how life is, and he does have mrs pegg at feeding him when he's hungry and stuff I think it's later adolescence, changes as circumstances in many ways, but we need talks about. when the jones veal middle school- and he feels like a hundred years older than these other kids his same age, because they ve had an easier life. They don't know what money is he's actually been awaited laborer for several years already, when he's thirteen, and so he can't believe the way they throw away money and he calls them blind puppies. So that's when I think he becomes more self aware which is common in teenagers. What I think a lot of folks to that have a bone that situation. Dont recognise is that were aware. You think we're grouse like in my town. I know you think Ambrose and at some point that's a bomb

the main thing between me and all my friends and then also upright, like you care about that, and we down in fuck you, we do stuff that you can't do and you cobbled together some esteem from the solidarity of the victim had yet. He addresses that directly several times when he talked about hillbillies in this is the truth. People, from my region, where I still live in appalachia. We see ourselves portrayed on tv and in film on the news. If at all, we see ourselves as a joke, a stupid, hillbilly joke or poverty documentary, that's it I mean it's not just appalache its rural people in general and is this urban elite laughing the coastal people here it's everywhere

There are late night comedians. I can't watch because I know it's going to be only thirty seconds till the tennessee joke. I think this is really important to think about and talk about, because it's at the heart of the political polarization that kind of condescension when you feel it day after day from the national media that you're seeing you reach a point I mean I don't vote the same way as some of my neighbors, but I get them you feel that the system is so stacked against you that nobody's listening to you, you feel so invisible your vote for the guy who just says I'm gonna blow up the system, absolutely you the most beautiful analogy in the book- and I remember when I was reading an hour so emotional, which is imagine being in the stall of the bathroom at school. In the other come in and you can hear them all making fun of you and attack. He knew and belittling you. That is exactly what

like we can hear you weekly here, yeah that broke my heart for everyone. That's grown up in that onslaught of endless punchline and it still going on- and I would say it's worse now than it was five years ago, because there's this kind of vindication it's like see those stupid people voted for the right. I got eyes area guys, though we feel validated in our hatred if we felt a little guilty before for our condescension. Now we don't have to because its life or death. Now it is also gets. So I'm an interesting position, as a rural person as an an appalachian who has a platform, is pretty important to me to use it to say this is life and death? We need to have a lot of conversations across these divides and people only too. information from those they trust. That's all! So if you open the converse,

with I'm gonna tell you stuff, you idiot, then that's over me. I just disagreed with someone who said they don't think all republicans or this or that they did I don't have the right information and I said well what you're saying is if they were as educated as you, they would think like you, not that a people think differently, regardless of education. There are differences of opinion, there's different dopamine levels, there's different everything and different. I already said I think a lot of my liberal friends think wove everyone was educated design. They would have no choice but to think exactly how I do right and they would put their career ahead of their family as I do and they would work ninety our work weeks as I do he nope right. They would value all the same. Still, rather you don't like it as I do, and if we left you said you related to him in two ways and we didn't get to decide your just as europe is so good

at the time. Okay, the one is the burden of his feeling like he is no wanted anywhere. Just nobody ever comes through for him. He feels like every place. He goes they're not gonna want to keep me the good thing about the in as he has this resilience, no matter what there's something in him that is going to figure it out. It's going to get out of here. He doesn't stop. Moving he's going to work on is going to learn morse code and he's going to read the front tannic there you go, and that's me too. This conversation that he has when he goes to this new school and this counselor, who turns out to be really important in his life. Mr Armstrong is read as dss files that go back forever and he says well, one thing I can say about you, demon is or damon. Is that your resilient, and he says you can get me drugs for that another diagnosis and in a way it is- and I feel

like. I share that with demon I've been through some really bad times, bad situation, hard situations and there's something in me that doesn't give up. There really thinks there is a way to get through this, and, furthermore, you know how the things that are easy for us. We wonder why their hard for other people, I look around and other people think just get on rights and I'll start moving deal you're mad do something I very much share that capacity, and I think that capacity and demon is what makes him readable and may be lovable very deliberate about this. I knew what I wanted to write about and where I wanted to take the reader and it's not an easy place to go. It's horrible hard place,

to go. So I knew that most of all you'd have to love this kid. So much any had to be a kid that was the answer. I mean I spent two years trying to just figure out how to crack into this story, and that was the answer. Let the kid tell the story, because people will go there with a kid. He'll get your heart and you'll get in. There was even a doll he's a full right. You look around with your judgment or persons made. These choices is right. You get to see from the beginning how he didn't make any choice right. He was given nine. He just use the tools at hand, but yeah. It's that american air talkers isn't it is like if you're not in a good place. You must have done something that put yourself their rights as if he were hard enough or hard working enough, you'd be rich or a senator from all

stay tuned air how did you get so knowledgeable on the addiction? Stuff goes again. Also, I'm an ex opiate attic. So this thing just it's a bulls eye for me to really come every single day. Just want to go get good year ago. I know. Do I'm really sorry, oh yeah! No, but I mean I'm just saying I'm sorry, I don't feel like I deserve that, but I appreciate it's a terrible, terrible disease. How do you familiarize yourself? Well, let me also say, as the reader as his own, an issues, start barbicane up. I got no, no, no! No! No! No! I don't want this and then I go yeah. Of course there's no way it would be. Such a fucking lie if he did it. I know the comfort that

if you're not going to not accept that comfort- and so I just hated It- and I was like- and it's the absolute truth- you're not going to be the child of an addict with that kind of trauma kicked around in the foster care you look at any one of these aces he's in the eights and nines he's got a eighty five percent chance of becoming an addict at this point yeah and by the time he's a young teenager, pretty much everybody he knows is using. everybody and just the truth, and the other thing you nailed as these varying degrees, where you can kind of go like walnuts, so bad cause this prison doing this and everyone's kind of playing the same relative game except the ones like poor, dory who's. Just given Junkies, forlorn, yeah gonna shoot though, but there's this in between sort of semi functional such hard work. I mean there are so many things that I wanted to help reach some com. caution, because that was my starting point- I live in south west virginia, which was targeted by

produce farm italy count same setting as dope sake. Get my elder daughter is a mental health, their person she works with teenagers. Seen at all, and it was because of her work that I became aware. I mean you can not be aware, have probably seen it right when you are losing their people. Nodding often grocery stores- I still live there and I'm saying at the height of it will you come out, bumping up against a lot. I mean the height of it hasn't Anger is now required of the cat yeah, because it's a whole generation of these opiate orphans, her coming up through the system and so among all of my friends and acquaintances. Where I live, I dont know a single family that hasn't lost somebody to overdose. I try to stay political on here cause who gives a shit, but I will say that only time ever ever ever saw trump. Misstep was when he made fun of I did it for happiness. Miss stepped Let me be, there is one of you know he was right, he could shoot

One in the middle, the street in his base would still love him. That's what I'm saying he never buy. They did the contract he had with his own boy. This he had put his yet you're. Ok, I'm the only time I ever saw it happen is when he made fun of Biden having a sun within an addiction, and that was the first time I felt the basic like air slowdown. it meant well, that's really telling add, also towel pandemic. This is me in making

If anybody else didn't do it even prisoners of war, a loser, but that one people then like and for people who are outside of the epidemic is to try to reach across that gulf. This failure of empathy- and I mean I don't blame anybody- it's a brainwash. It's been fifty years of the so called war on drugs, literally taught kids in school. All that criminals use drugs, bad people use drugs, lazy people use drugs because you could just say no, and this indoctrination has left us with this cultural gulf between people who have been consumed by it's disease and their families and the people who are lucky enough to be untouched and just blame the victims and treating this disease as if it could be cured by incarceration is just sickening to those of us.

Live there. So I knew I wanted to bring people into this really hard life to show people. How hard I mean laziness. It's really hard work to black there's, a chapter that just takes you through his day, how hard it is to wake up and find your means and find your connect. I've been I most creative. I've worked my hardest in pursuit of that. It is not for the lazy, that's really true, and once you have that disease, the only thing you can do is stay alive. Just do all the things you do every day to stay alive, you're not chasing a high. Many people, never work sounds like you had some help from your daughter. I did. She helped me to connect me with people. I could talk with at dss and the foster care system, so I could learn how all that works, but as far as really being inside the experience of addiction, I needed to go and just sit with people who would tell me their stories and a lot of em

so I made friends with doktor art van Z, who runs a clinic in Lee county who most of his practice is treating people in recovery he's been in view of the diet exactly and fact I resisted watching dope sick for good, while because I didn't want to see these friends of mine being played by you, but I ultimately did and it was grey its trauma it's tremendous yeah and Beth macy as a friend and I think she's done a wonderful job. Her next book is also really good. Raising lazarus it's about treatment and the gaps in the gulf said how little help there is for people in our region. So I made friends with DR vamsi. I told him what I was doing and he was very supportive and he said, let me send an email to my patients and see if I can get people to talk with you and that worked out, and so I just spent hours and hours and hours sitting down with people,

who were wonderfully forthcoming. I didn't know what to expect if you're not spent time in rooms of air and ate it pride, knock you on your ass, how honest people all right, we'll how people want, hearing in I just wanna talk about it and just saying ask me anything just to have a sympathetic ear, very very helpful. There wasn't any format I just usually would sit down with the person and say this is what I'm doing. I'm not gonna, what about you. I will not say anything about you. I just want to know what your life has been like the worst of it, the best of it everything. How did you get there? How did you get out and just let the tape roll

what stand me, even though I thought I knew a good deal. What stunned me is how many stories began with a prescription from the dock who said set your clock. Don't miss a pill cause, that's what Purdue told them right. The so called studies that produce gave them then said no. No. There is no way that this will be addictive and so on doctor's orders. They took the pills, on schedule and when they got to the end of the bottle, they were addicted and then ten years of a life lost. Because of that you know, when I interview people I would stop and say, and then how did that feel and how did your head feel and how did your stomach feeling? Just if you don't mind saying what were the worst symptoms out as it feel when your dope, sick and everybody has a different description? But ultimately you get the picture of how that feels physically, just putting myself in their position. So a lot of talking and every

symptom. Just about that someone described I thought I could have had that. Usually, but the boys yeah or food poisoning no sleep for four days and you know a broken limb or something like put that all together. You did such a passion to imagine having that disease and having people spit on you and saying. Why did you do that we know it down. The last thing I want to point out that seems impossible. You could have done it this well, and I want to talk about the context I'm curious how much thought went into this, but I really really appreciate it is. I think there would have been a big temptation in our current society. To handle the boys burgeoning adolescents and sexuality in a way of what should be verses. What actually is- and I think it was such an accurate portrayal of health,

keep org you we were all haunting and how preoccupied you are and how every conversation with every guy you ever have. Eighty percent of your brain power is in that zone for life. for years, and I was delighted that you didn't try to do up. Fuckin self actualized version of it or what safety should be like. That of then I'd only people do it. I think we will be afraid to do what you did with the boy sexuality. I think at this point in our history I found to be refreshingly brave, but that's where fiction can save you a little bit, cause you're, not saying you know, you're, not gonna, say they're going to be like. Well, that's a character. Did any of that cross your mind? No, it didn't. I just was going for authenticity and once I got this character in my head once he started talking to me, I don't want to say he took over cause. I mean I'm fully restored. visible for all of us know this chewing take up

what do you know? What I'm saying is that ok well yeah? He was really yeah. I'm gonna tell you, though, sensations are not alien to deeds, exactly I dont think earlier, and I know not even those rules also can be preoccupy, but I think boys, fur physical, blue balls suffer I had an giving him that older girl that did the phone saxon tortured him. There's some suffering involved. Yeah yeah, I guess what I was conscious of always is that I have to keep the reader on board with demon. I can't have him lose his audience. You really have to go there, so I thought that he could be as warranty as he would really be and kind of as crude. Just because that's the language,

but in his way he's kind of a gentleman when the girls are all putting underwear and stuff at his locker, and he says, like I, don't want to come in at the end. I want to come in at the beginning of the car chase, not right before the call blows up. He wants all eternity I or even when the prostitute. As china's deal, the truck. Stop. Yes, yes, indeed, just like politely say it like you, don't wanna be GMO. The gue beauty mailed it for me, it's actually in the language issue embraced which, as I can see

for a modern writer, might think if I'm truthful about how they're talking I'm gonna lose audience. But it seems to me that you had a confidence that we would recognize that like none of this is real, so you can bell, but it's kind of new. This is the truth. He drops F bombs, every other sentence. I suppose, if there is one thing I've thought about. Dialing back was his language. Actually, it did a little bit well he's just so angry and he's got every reason to be, but in the first draft cause I revise a lot. I rewrite everything Four times every sentence is re written over and over again, so the first couple chapters I wrote, he was believe it or not, even more pissed off then he is when you, madam and I realize I can't start there. I have to back up All you on his side,

and then you can see why is so pissed off, but I think that I'd written written a hundred pages- and I just thought, while just to a certain see how many times he says the f word of a hundred and seventy four- and I thought that might be a bit bit. But let's see if I can set the goal to get up below a hundred, and my husband he's always my first reader and he really responded, he's a good reader and he's an honest reader and if something isn't working for him he'll say so. He does read fiction, but it's not his favorite thing, so that makes him a good reader, because if I have him I know I've got a reader, but this I think that I gave him about nineteen pages and we sat on the front porch he read it meets an idle love this guy and so that we now also does anything for your better than impressing near me. I think we're path.

really. Well, we impress each other what can mean we both have oils You can easily just be two human beings bumping into each other in the hallway. I don't know, I do think we both get up and impress each other every day, I just had a good laugh yeah. We should celebrate that. That's pretty great, why I brought him up, as the second thing he said is. This is not going to get the a p literature course adoptions. The language is probably going to keep high schools, but I can't worry about that. Oh yeah, honestly, I right with nobody. Looking over my shoulder you'd already come to that years. Years ago. Yeah. That's why you're successful yeah well is it. You could also say that also say recipe for failure. If you any writing conference, which I doubt that idea for a while- and I realize I don't belong here- cause it's all about marketing marketing. What do people want here? What's working in the market for your very summer,

insidious in that way? He just doesn't use like I right for me and I don't care people or mad or what they say. It's. What we were talking an hour six hours ago. Yes, they are. The only thing I have is what I can say from this exact position in the universe that I inhabit, and so, if I'm thinking about what people want from me, that's gonna get pulled. It's like a point. Dumbson not a point, and I can't risk getting pulled off of it right. So I really do right with nobody. Looking over my shoulder, I dont think that means that I'm completely oblivious to audience you know I mean I try to make things clear. I've tried to read some books, I won't name names, but there are great novels. I've tried to read, and I just I don't even know what he's talking about and poetry, I'm not that writer. I am committed to accessibility. I want to be understood, not readers, to have to work. So

hard. I would imagine once you ve got stuff in your going through your rewrite process. You are rightly going what price to pay for this, and what thing do I value the most in this mall right? If I'm gonna devalue the thing I'm tryin hardest to do, because I want to do this little thing I want to do a negative priorities. A little thing I want to know not in any way that would be untrue to yourself. You would just recognise the balances Well, it's really more about Steven as a reader calls it bringing up the lights. He'll say I think you need to bring up the lights on this scene. I don't know exactly what's going on cause, it's also abundantly clear to me. You know that's the best thing I think other readers can do, for you is tell you when you're overstating or understating smart. I just have. This experience was reading, something that allowed the girls and my wife that I have

written in there is this one little throwaway line for me as well as a little kid. This boy I became friends with in my neighborhood and how he looked at your face and it didn't really feel like he was looking at your eyes and this and that and then later christian was like. So he was autistic and, as I know, he wasn't autistic I was like, oh okay, so that really makes you think he's. So I need to relay the same thing that was happening, but in a way that's probably less modern. That makes you think immediately. The boy was autistic. Yeah, that's one of the best of what readers can do, for you is just say: whatever is clear in your head here, isn't being made clear in mind, right, yeah and that's the easy mistakes to make. It's not even a mistake. Kind of a tight tracing who I may cause readers have different levels of acuity levels of attention. They heard the readers that will read the book for time, is are eight times and then there are the readers that only mildly attentive, so you're trying to

rita medium here, the bell curve of yeah exactly, and so that's one of the wonderful things about revision. You can keep honing it until everybody gets something and the readers that are really giving you a lot will get a lot back. So there's like always, more. I hope you're putting me in that letter kind of car yeah, Barbara kingsolver ha but yeah I like to write books that will be enjoyed on a second reading. Just like your favorite films, you want to watch him again because you know there's gonna be stuff in there. You, MR first time, then how do you know when you're done the editors as its title about him, it's very hard for me. I could still be writing my first novel, I'm a perfection and have that disease I revise and revise and revised. You can feel when you get to point of diminishing returns. Ok have revised this whole manuscript a night changed a bunch of words and then

change them back. You know when you get to the point where you kind, I feel like you're there and I'm really pretty good at meeting deadlines. But when I turn in a book it's exactly the book I want it to be, which is why don't read reviews because the audience the hookahs diet. As far as I'm concerned, it's exactly what I wanted to hear my experience with it is over right, and so, whatever strengths and weaknesses, other people might find in it. That's all this. What are really when your way they were so painful. I don't read them, but I get told my uk editor was really mad, because one is a big uk papers accused me of writing about a place. She's never been, and I live These are my people now just makes you realize that is noise obama. This was a blast I feel very, very, very lucky to have.

Gotten to talk to you about my favourable self reliant on the poor, the book and thanks for talking to our friends, I hope you tricked me again. I mean that was the best shreck where monica broke it to me that it was in fact the woman in shoe these are really big. Did you listen to the book? I listen to the icy, so you do not accept so I read so slow most of the books, ninety nine percent of em. I listen, do that's when tat to so yeah, I'm never holding the book until you don't see the author photo there like phase or I might be. I don't see the theory on the friar names, their brawling, I'm in the chapters right away and you were listening to Charlie Thurston. Not me. I usually read my audio books. My publisher, let me do that. I like to do it I like going into the studio and it's my one acting gig ever

you're, not here the merest wreathing, her or the other, but it's kind of a catharsis for me, because I have had these characters talking to me in my head for years, the r and d get in the studio and replicate them and get the accents, and everything is perfect, as I can I feel like it's a value added products that I'm giving you writers, but in this case that one thing I cannot be as a boy, and so I auditioned several readers and I picked him and I was really happy. He was available to do it, but that's another reed You could easily have thought that it was a male and I didn't help but interesting. I did not think the voice actor was the author as we know but as a profession papa, will. Thank you so much for coming in person. This is such a blast and I really can't wait to read the next thing you right

it ain't get go eat, know I'll, be on my way around a lot for having me. This is fun. I like your space here. Thank you so much. We do to keep it. Cozy yeah, yeah yeah. No, it's comfy heavy on the knick knacks I had my own the way these box. I would that's right. I did a little. You should have your own ladys. I should get other folks. A general mill it's a composer Yeah, exactly alright, we'll be well, and I can't wait to see you get the box. I don't even care about the back, get your pants. You wash your hair today know to look clean. It looks, like it's mildly, damp like you just

yeah, that's the opposite- that it's like oily oily and you're gonna, be very great, like I I'm using new hair products, all the time they're. So good! This is a shout out. This is a little bit of an easter egg cause. Look. we're in november and you know what's approaching arms, I have been waiting to see if you're even going to address it, because you don't like doing it even though it's so wildly success. I love doing it after I've done it. There

as the vote there, all right or our eggs written. That's right because this is do all my give guide my gift. I will talk about my gift guide. Obviously, third annual give guidance, congratulations and its tricky, because its two things at once. It's me recommending product rime and then also me writing about them in a way that reveals fund to me, yes, would use those why're, you ve done to vary by more jobs. Thank you like I. Actually, as you know, a use, the girl, I buy everything, that's on the gift card. I'd wait patiently or impatiently for them. I know, but then also as a performance, peace attempt. Thank you the other off the charts thanks. I do enjoy it, but I care about both missions, and so it's a little bit of a burden, because I care that's right. You want to make sure you want to deliver the high bar you ve set for yourself. This is pie,

the easter egg, I'm not sure yet, but I'm considering putting this on the gift guy, oh wow, so then do you want to withhold the the product name? What do you want to do here? No I'm gonna say: okay, okay rose, hair line is incredible. I'm spelled out the r o c, no e, I'll be so roz by arose, whereas now has more arose. Act is a pair silenced out here with friends. Wife, no way tailor them. Local natives that play in our lab shell is marrying amara, I'm learning some so excited I how right why I've met her once and she's the sweetest like we welcome and he's very prolific, alter the issues, one of fancy, clients, gas, cape maras

yeah yeah. I know yeah ding, ding, ding, kate, maras best friend, who was did talk about here, because we thought that was impossible, that her best friend samples mara right turns out mars in my orbit. More is very good friends with Sally christians and from argent the sioux company that I love and endorse time you in a word you find yourself, my god. It's such a sam seven characters road, so have I met mara vs Sally. She was wonderful, but I had already at that time started using her new hairline prior to medium yeah, and so obviously I was a big fan girl. It's so good. You there's a couple products. There's a hare oil. I really do like how much you like attacks. Well, your products, but by extension, people

look. I know you're over celebrity sightings, but you also still get you get. So I jumped up about certain people which is still endearing, then adorable, which I like his hair she made airports like she she's married. I like the guy. I know what it's it's really gonna acute hereupon As you know, you well that work well with your hair are hard to combine those laws. One virtue exactly when you find your thing, Here's, the problem of the amazon I used to know all my brands like and junior high aquanaut extra firm, hold extra super say head like three x motives: ok about how farm the hold was in a was

I had a seven eight inch spike didn't go anywhere all day, but I knew all my products. I liked the Paul Mitchell gel. I like this aqua net and it came in like a seventy ounce aerosol to ozone be gone because of amazon. I go to past orders and mike and I type in her hair and then brings up the one I like that I've ordered by four aim. So I dont ever remember. I think it might be a ball mitchell. Product amusing is kind of a crime. I use my hair yeah you're, hell it's lovely, but I dont know wonder in order. I entered bruce it up a little by little some dancer. yeah yeah, not when people have created something I care deeply about more war. I'm I admire oh yeah. I love you. I love to see it like you like the role which is great lie here. It's a great brian

but then you and you didn't have any interest in her as a celebrity before that. But now you ve elevated herds almost deity. Damn Mary came ass. c m b a. I guess. I'd go straight to actually understand the pro centric know it makes sense, but ok they were my for. I had a michel doll, ok, but I will how does her name their name gamma, shall I hadn't michel docile always had an affinity for them right, but now I could care less right in. Hilda wrong has its interest in a lot of my party, and I fear David beckham sweater. It's too hot me here and I know if I turn on the aerial be very cold and good. Our layer will start here, that'll be step one and then, if I continue to sweats sits I'll have to, while, if so many things left up in the air. Ok, tying up some: we s lives, we altogether. One is more as hair care is incredible row,

was a rosy yep and spells rose, but what can you just paris put flares again? Action on the o must eventually That's what makes it gives a large year, the mainstream corrective okay. So she so it's a hare oil and then there's what you do. Is you put the heroin oil and before a shower, and you just let that set for like ten to twelve minutes? Maybe twenty and then you shower, you used the shampoo who emma conditioner okra. Then after you damn bidder. I told damp dry, I have a tip dab, drawings and really damp it drives and make it to the town. and then Robert now on your her or you don't make no, no you're hairs. Dripping yes and you dab it with the tell what I wouldn't say die but you were you would say damp because that's what you said

you squeeze out in the water, but you know I squeeze out too much its various damping. It bianca it's a word. I have a trick for that that I learned from some video I use. I do towel real quick on it. Wasn't a quick squeeze. And then I take a paper towel. Okay in and it like it's a great greasy pizza. Damn, but no you don't do it like that. I know what you're thinking you're talking about like dabbing having it adding. You know you take the paper towel and you like scrunch the hair, okay, great with the paper towel and then it stamped camp. Then you use a little. She has this milk, hair, milk, oh and this other little other oil,

mix those small amount, then it put it in my hair and then it looks good wow. So many steps. I know it's a real project, it looks great and I have a two other friends who are using it and they all their satisfied customer. Would you agree that if you were someone who wash your hair every day, this will be? too much to do daily five steps. I dont, though, and you dont have to if, as ok in year, once every three to four days on a hare wash pretty madame times, what's the longest, will no seven eight days is more depressed skies gloomy where we say two months now, god now I'm prior weak as along. So I think yak as it does starts again cute and keeping a hair journal and then we'll know next year. Oh speaking of I gave you homework, I wonder if you did it: oh fuck, yeah, okay, well I'll, give you another week

all was over to again five favorite packers episodes of all time, blame. We already know you've already established that he now we need two three four and five. I hope that every armed cherry has found their way over to stereo lab to listen to radio lab. That's an old favorite band of mine, stereo lab really great band fuck. This happens down south. This happened with fred. When you remind him, toward us, and then we get depressed that I forget about my favorite bans that they got that. I don't listen to them for years, and actually I yet a pang of guilt. Do you like I'm not being faithful to them and stereotype of such a is such a great don't to feel guilty. You can re frame, add as If you're excited to find it again, okay, would you want to hear one? Second, I'm stereo love to see him get a flavor for what it is cause, it's very, very novel, original music, okay

other words in the zones are incredible. How already know what that's like? Did you I have a stereo lab phase. Rob yeah name is Mary Higgins and singer's. Here we go now. I did I know that in who is she married to your answer, but she saw me and told him and two: I just been thomas way. Does singer died, backing and leave vocals I mean there's another lead.

I was closely connected the handsome last name. Ninety four, ninety six. Ninety seven, ninety nine doesn't appear that they have anything recent well shades path, maybe she passed because I stop listen. It looks like this. Im active in two thousand and nineteen again, oh wonderful, took a ten year. Break sounds like you. Do have some stuff to feel guilty. I always do yeah it doesn't. Take me long to remember, know you can reframe it and, like I can reframe. Okay, do you want me to get you a stereo lab t vintage, of course? Okay, I would love that I'm going to look into it cause. You know I, like vintage, t shirt. What can I get you for christmas? I'm so bad at this

let's go right to the horses ass, think about it. Okay, now this shirt similar to your stereo lap story. Okay, I was in new york with molly. Obviously, we've talked about it and then pin because you just run the yard. Yes, it was and we we stopped into this vintage store, vintage tea store and it looked like it was not going to be my style right, but then he had all these Gumby. Sure sure gum bees which I had forgotten until I saw these shirts and it was so exciting. For me, GM was a pizza place in athens. Oh wow, and they had pokey sticks, and where they stealing the actual I'd intellectual property of of Gambie yeah there he was

Then yeah there's no way they had a like a license for that. He was there and he and there well. I mean that pokey stick so they're, obviously playing on that yeah, but I didn't even know about Gumby really right cause that was very early saturday night live yeah, I didn't know, I just knew the pizza and we were obsessed with Gumby. It was like ours, it was, spot hospitals, assemblies last fight, it was a CNBC, see CNBC and member of my group, our low I know hear so. Ok I think I'm completing something so there was mister bill was a character on sara live, but also, and eddie murphy would play gumby. Oh rarely played black maybe so he swore and stuff. I have his eye. It was great right. I had an inflatable gum, be that was six feet tall. One thousand junior high rise to fight it nonstop our country,

in wrestler in my mom, for some reason was very entertaining, because I would build up the fight. What I'd start talking to him? Would you say and then I would run in tat alone now is all show I would do how'd. You know me was a straight up character outside of us, and I didn't know there wasn't as our connection, but there are also some because I bought an asset. Al short also, my fantasy I can even toggery anywhere in the world ass, a short circuiting yeah, so yeah cambyses, very nostalgic for me, and so I bought their skirmish like answer at all your hair Your go beautifully conditioned in oil dire and the olympic oh Gumby goes for goal found out why they can use the cursor. So on Gumby creator, art clokey came through gainesville on a college, speaking tour. They threw him a party in the founder city, such a good time that he granted than the national rights a gun bees. Why and how these names? for one hundred years,

what year was theirs and maybe six because they closed guppies near the maker. Urban mobility like magic and we have to stand out there and educate everyone award coming turkey's. Oh here's, the thing about gummy, a lotta, you might think he's from sir. I live in a kind of, but in as I don't make, anyone at this aid has have any questions. I didn't even have any class you didn't. I thought it was a beautiful Oh ok, but what about someone out front like giving a thirty minute lecture on what it is you're about to lack of chairs Please sit down before you, hundreds of stores. Do you understand the full context of what we're trying to do here? Well, that's interesting. The pizza was so good. The pokey sticks were so good and I miss it. Yeah I bet,

Also it's gone, so people can't have it. If we had our wishes, I would go eat at flaky, Jake's and you'd go eat at gumby, yeah. Okay, I want to talk about something Where we leave, it will be left to some disaster. I think we have some itself to go through. We gotta just keep storm. This is your fall when you go way too to talk about I about- and I agree with my apologies- you went to new york went to new york, very early fight? Seven am on thursday and I can do a little like. Leaning, I don't mind when things are delayed wanna see afternoon, but if you wake up, I will at four, am to journal and meditate the car at five. Am you're della ex at six, a m to vienna, and then we did it take off and it was like, that is, I put him. I did all the crappy staff here, so I had a little struggle or a. We started going down the runway

I'm am. I looked use on the plane for two hours, or was it delayed a good hour if he had had to be rising like four Prison boarding like they shut the door. Tell some forty five and the time we're going down the runway as nine yeah I want to say he claimed that there was a stalled aircraft. At J f on the runway like they were delaying people from leaving only maybe, but whatever the cases by was right. But what happened when we landed then, originally, when we were supposed to land, we were going to have time to go to the hotel, yeah get a bite to eat and then christian would go to a musical on around. god and I would watch I dunno what I would do yeah. I can't remember what I do. We landed so late, the men, the cab bride, was she had to be at the play in an hour and forty minutes and then we're gonna go to drop me off at the hotel. First that her place, obviously in midtown yeah and were down.

Yes and then the better mind you better angles of my character at your nature as I, let's drop you off first and I'll, bring all the bags housing nice of you an end smart in it's five p m on Thursday man hand so basically got on that white at six, twenty, I am and do the long flight? Then the cab ride was like two and a half from the time. We got him at jfk to the time I got out of the hotel. I was like. Oh I've been for twelve our sitting kind of confined in now able to move around and you my own bang. I hate that bright J of merging going to your mom, I'm down verse, giving you stressed that adding any bit in south unbearable cause. I hardly can stand.

And yeah it's not great and then when she got out and then I decided to google maps at myself and then I saw it was gonna, be like fifty seven minutes to get done. I was like, oh, my god and I couldn't get out Take the subway that point. I had all the bags sugar anyways got into the hotel We hotel what I'd do thursday night. Oh, I immediately tax Vincent and four yoke he lived down in that. mary, where we were staying first. Eight, I said: are you at home because I was gonna meet him at Emily, brooklyn, maiming, z list? you know I'm in michigan, so I was in his book. place and he was in my birth. We, but then he told me to go to Bobby's. Have you been Bobby's any time. Oh you have you know about body, and that is the great bobby's. So he said to go to Bobby. I went to Bobby's and I loved it in people watching a new york and I loved so much myself.

myself and just stared at people and watched all. I just love it. Looking out the window. Was it chris? What was the weather like? Ah yeah? It was perfect. It was like the high fifties. Yeah perfect. You know I had my piece. I was wearing my piece the whole time. He has both pieces, just the hoodie zipper hoodie and I brought some sweaters that look like beckham art. Oh, I know easter egg. We interviewed Did I drank and he ass upcoming great episode? He recommended couples therapy I'll write any need to start it will. By luck. It was on the airplane ride to j f k so christen I started it. and then, when she got back from play. We then watch a couple episodes it's so girl, I'm so! Oh, my god! I love it is it's a great recommendation. Then friday we went to Bobby's in the morning

worked, we went to Bobby's we're trying to keep it like, as we have five pm reservation at manhattan, Emily and so you said we cover relighted bobby's at time, but then we went at five. Immediately saw an arm cherry with her mom, who is on vacation. Who was there because we suggested it so that was really q and she was so sweet and then I went Gutenberg, which is josh, GAD and Andrew Reynolds, and these too are insane. I had both by the way have only seen five musicals in my life and out two of whom are women. two guys are insane together. They have such good chemistry and increasing its on state the they do special gas of that shit. That's right at the very and you know what elevation she got love those sweet casino. In

you know. Some part of her heart is broke that she didn't stay and do broadway for a long time or that she's not returned to do broadway. I know that's a big thing for her. Yes, she will ya, but for her to get on stage in the a level of excitement. People had for her guardian air made me feel so good for her life. well. You deserve this girl, you weren't there, but you are loved there. Yeah, oh yeah, she's, a huge part of that community get home that night from the play, and I ordered Emily, would have just been there. Five pm wow. ordered now. Gluten free pizza and all round picked out slept, lay first There are some eleven and a half hours LAO one, which was really really helpful at a very early more

well off and then she went to another play. I sat watching have fun. We went to Emily brooklyn on Saturday. That was wonderful. We picked out again then walked around manhattan for a couple hours. We like six miles and then on the way back as like, I could go for Bobby's again went back into Bobby's, so now been one meal, but you see the pattern: anyways ada Bobby's four times in three days: ada Emily burger three times in three days scrape and that's pretty much. The trip. Wonderful youse for sounds a guy. I thought about this because you posted that I was like wow, that's so fun! You have your staple owing! It's very me it is it is. If I find something I like. I just want what I like overnight. Now I dont lighted for interesting. There

You have a much more like you feel, like you're, missing out on meals. If you were to go by exactly night, do have bow lay. I have the same issue and that if I love it, I want it like I got home from new york was like, when am I gonna have high diner again ever like I have to buy panic years, but I can't goat weiss. I can't, although I did go twice a breakfast his last time, but that's the way, our ear. The other thing was, I went the first. It was for dinner and I noticed there that they had glued free pancakes. But when I went back the next morning, I couldn't gluten free pancakes because we re not emily burger in two and a half hours, so we have made a pact to keep it light. So I just said eggs not reds. So now we still need gluten free pancakes. I still gotta go back, so I'm getting some.

Different, every time that I've seen on the menu that I also want to try. So it is somewhat I'm getting new stuff, but you I understand is hard. There was great, though, what a city, what a city like sitting, I was thinkin miles, a comedy: broadway feeders. Are there the christian guest fifteen she's out around like what's the average cast like ten fifteen, we think about it and our musicals there, a bare casts yeah and like this one that we just saw Gutenberg to people. So there you are raising hounding like off broadway cause. Now, ok, so just broadway, was thinking in offer, is enormous of an industry does and how much space it occupies in our culture you're really looking at. Maybe three hundred people are employed. given time doing that job, which is is very small? and I so many people in the subway there's another thing we rather subway everywhere, which was really really fun best, be watching imaginable last autumn.

I'm reminded that when you're in new york you just have to live out loud. Your seated so close to everybody when you eat your literally jeanne shoulders. Every time you need a meal, so your hearing, everything they say, their hearing, everything we say and so and so goes the subway and everywhere else in you just what are you going live your life. You gotta just talk to your over. I was overhearing the most thrilling conversation yeah intimate, stub inachus, it's a virus Paradise. I guess that's what I myself am a fine. Then it was that is what I saw on the subway. I saw a few different groups of people that were actors talking about the stage and I thought man there's jobs. There's all these if, when all these schools yeah it's tough, it's hard so hard, yeah well fun, and what was your weekend like one thing I wanted to bring up, which was interesting. It came up twice

weekend at on thursday morning. I was interviewed for something which was very cool: a podcast or article an article, okay, it was very flattering to be asked and it was. It was very thoughtful them. You know who knows how it will turn out, but it was. It was funny because I've declared it here and it's this how true it is. I don't look at stuff. I don't read comments. Don't look into what people are saying about me and It was reiterated that that is the smart decision for me, because in doing this she kind of brought up a couple things that people say and she was saying it to be mean who's gonna, saying like it sort of crazy that they say this and kind of life. What do I say that sort of like her, why No that

and oh jeez. That's goes that unit bad space roaming I'm just saying it was interesting when you did, say they said yes, so I guess a thing that people say it well, a lot of like why. Why aren't you talking more or what does she add? Oh type of thing or like? No? No, no! Not what does she add something about me, not knowing as much as you and I was like well of course, I don't I'm not doing the same thing, I'm not there to do the same thing he's doing. I thought that was very clear right right right, but maybe it's not so some people army, I really really don't care, but it it did. Make me think. Oh there's stuff being said that I just don't know about and happily and I'm just so happy to contain

you to not know. Yes, as someone who reads all the comments, I will say she's shining light on something. That's less than point one percent, just how you need to Let me out is not like there's some what she said as any kind of consensus or even one percent of comments yeah. She said something about leg, about being smart people say not and in that, whenever there I don't wanna. I was all like ino, I'm hearing I m I'm hearing at all at once. I'm not sure. If I'm sorry this currently into your own growing. Yet I know I'm smart, the one it's one of the old things I know about myself. You don't have that insecure. I really don't so it. It was interesting to hear castles like oh they're. Just that should inform all right yeah. You should reverse engineer from that that exact same but denying them

for someone to say that is as relevant as anything else. It's been so yeah, so that happened in those thursday on Saturday we get an email from Adam from Adam Kirsch, our publicist, and he sent this or he said this is a nice article. You sent it and it was a opinion piece in vogue, which I would not harm round behind her happy you, oh my god, there really sweet, lovely, very beautiful I want to applaud her as well as they do her name's lucy Lucy. I want to applaud her cause, I think, what's very tempting for people if they write something pro monica, there's this inclination to pit us against each other. I've seen this before. Yes, it's like if something's with you, then, is related to me and I never I'm always like celebrate monica unaware yeah, but lucy was very, very generous about. I just think she was very accurate about what

the whole thing. Yet there was no positioning. You are now against which I like now it was a very flattering celebration of you. Don't have to talk all the time they write me. Acknowledging there's like genius in talking when you shouldn't, when you shouldn't yeah, but that was really lovely, but it was us all Oh, you know there's a line, and I were she said. The reason she thought to do this is because she was talking about the show. Is someone in some of them even is yeah I and others like. While this is two things a couple days, a part that are reiterating sort of the same thing. It was funny because when I was editing this episode of Barbara king sovereign by making up, I think I am I think my favorite episode of the year will I really do wow that's grow. They can we be her la. I just love you so awesome. She said that when she finishes a book she's done with the book like

she doesn't read reviews and it doesn't really matter to her what people say a she knows she did what she wanted to do. You have dealt with it and I felt like that. I was like yeah that sort of how I feel like it's weird, to start hearing pokes, because I like what word Wang- and I I like the role I'm in- will be one thing to me: making these accusations if we were like a football team with a record of zero and twelve. You start looking around for what's broken, but there's nothing broke. like our shows doing as well as its ever done. End nothing's broken in us. no we're, not a show were me and you are hosting equally, that's not the point of it. That was never the point of merger and still not, and so I feel that I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing correctly

and I like what we put out will listen. I read the thing as well the article the article, and it was great and I saw that line as well, and I then naturally didn't want you to read that line. Oh you know I felt protective of you and then it said. me out. I spent in a little while thinking about it afterwards. I really think I've isolated what's happening if your interests, like no one's triggered by Michael J, they see Michael Jordan and they go. Oh, my god, this guy dedicated every waking hours life to be as good as he was. I no illusion that I could be Michael Jordan, I think when things get tricky is when people see someone like paris hilton night, more weight. I can do that like she doesn't. Do anything so I could do that in their resentful at her because well fuck. If she's got me, is I should to cause. I can do nothing as well, so I think what's tricky, for people is whether they were fans of minor.

they ve at least known I've been around for twenty years on tv doing stuff. So if I have a podcast, they dont go well, I should too They go. Oh, he was at the lab rat he's been doing this for twenty years and ammo I've been aware of it now when see you in there just meaning you for the first time they go will fuck. I guess I could have been the baby sitter entirely right in their will. fully ignoring how incredibly funny you are, how intelligent you are. How much you worked on your writing in how beneficial that was to everything we did there, not choosing Do that you're a brand new person to them that they find out, has the house across the street from my yes and I think that's what it is still a Why why? Why does she have a

your label, which the in turn makes the matter you which is so inter right, which is also why the show works to say that I know that I thought the same. I when I thought about it. I thought the same things like. Oh, it's cause. They think they could be me in. So why did he get to be me exactly? I guess- and I dont know where this confidence comes from, because my confidence is so fleeting and aids in and out in so many ways. I just know their raw like. I know, you're value to the ship, we do, and I know that this show would not be this. Would be a different show, I dont know what it would be, but it would not be this show. That's my bribing on the ice is women's ass. I don't know why you did. It would be not. This will not have this fingerprint and when we have a budget shows

on this network and there are others, show their all great, and none of them are this, and that is that there is a symmetry between you and I guess that is greater than the sum of airport. Yes, and so sorry, if you're one of those people- and I dont think most people listen to the fact that are in line with the who is mine but if you are now look they would eat something else about. You are obvious the clear. Let's say that you had been on three tv shows that never had this thing and then it was a big success. They want that issue, but it wouldn't the two another yeah, but you know I just know that's wrong in that. I know it's wrong. I relieved, convince myself, I know in my bones, it is yeah. I also know what I do for the show that no one knows that I know so that helps to

well anyway, I just thought it was interesting and beautiful article. I hope everyone really really sweet uncle and yeah, so that was part of my weekend. What else do we don't need to get too into it? We talked about it a little bit on sink. I went on two dates: two with two different people: where'd you go to dinners no drinks, both times drinks both times and they were both great great. You have a favorite know: ok, I'm just information gathering peace, not trying to over think anything which was congrats minds thanks, you're gonna have to reverse engineer, you're twenty twenty three resolutions. Liz Did you ever do set me up to do list, and then you do an added things for you right in on your list. Afterwards, you ever do that now. It's like, I see some petty so that you can count

yeah like. I did you all this stuff, then I stopped and use use the leaf blower. I get that yeah. I get the impulse. So? Similarly, you can now go back and go like on x amount of daylight seated I'm telling you yes, but for that on their now posthumously. Okay, so we have some facts: ok from barbara, so narrow strip. It was crazy, not for the first time we both had. the same time. Never have right, you're always looking for him, and this was so undeniable. It just popped off. The page. it really is in keeping with her work. Ok, she mentioned the golden note book, which was one of her favor authors early on you asteroids. Some influences were that was one of my sadnesses as we have no overlap of our favorite boss. You always want. I always want that shared the same favorite books as someone I admire, or it's that maybe you'll like some of these

I am also excited to explore the ones she likes. Yes, so doris lessing is was an author. She mentioned and who's talking about very progressive things. For the time you asked the time the golden notebook was written in nineteen sixty two okay, she said fifty sixties and that's accurate. Thirteen years before I was here she set her dad read her robert burns poem about allows and she started massaging yeah, and so you phone line, I found it. Are you going to read it? Is it a long one or a short one? Okay, so there's two a louse on seeing one on a lady's bonnet at church. Oh, okay, okay, seventeen, eighty six, scots language, poem, oh boy, by robert burns in his favorite meter, standard. Happy: okay, oh wait! This is just the final verse give us the final four okay,

Oh wad, some power they give tee ass to see our is discovered, many for let adjure that seems in bosnia. Be a wrap on literature for me to say some crazy stuff and like what is she talking about, but does not make sense to see ourselves. As others see us, it was fray, mony a blunder for you tonight, even english and foolish notion what airs and dress and gate wildly ass, an Evan devotion. Ok, that's the original! Now standard english translation, ochres translated, oh some power. They give to give us to see ourselves as others see us, it would for many, a blunder free us and this notion. What airs and dress and gate would leave us and even devotion, long that actually barely understand

just barely back and what we ve been talking about this whole time for six years to self awareness. Knowing how other people see you right, if only we could see ourselves the way, I just do I can cause, I have a mirror, they didn't have mirrors and fourteen eighty. This is like basically an ode to a mirror. Okay, it also says see also so this was to allows this is to a mouse, a whoa, This is why someone else's berlin he's elsewhere. Uncle do amount yeah, oh my gosh, to a mouse on turning her up in her nest with the plough so they're playing field turned up having to read

also when I read the regional. We scarcely get cowering tim roused beastie, oh, what a panics in thy breeze de morbihan thirty breast to lose out. We also all know I'm saying: don't worry about me, organs to a mouse and then again, thou need mass start, our sea hasty, we bickering rattle. I want

late terrain and chase the we murdering paddle. I am truly sorry man stood me now. You know I'll do ended, translates not time truly sorry. Man's dominion has broken majors of swill union and justifies that ill opinion which makes these startle at me thy poor, earthborn, companion and fellow mortal. I doubt now wiles, but thou may feel what then poor beastie thou man live a day. Men occur in a thrace sas south you gonna go even a small request. Again

blessing with the lave and never missed. Oh, it's really long. I'm not going to keep reading a translation or we live with the translation. I want to hear of the most hated big brother sounded like he was around the bush about little sleek cowering, timorous beasts. Oh, what a panic is in your breast. You need the quivering. You need that start away, so hasty with bickering prattle. I would be loathe to run and chase you with murdering paddle, okay, it still hard to understand why it was so boring back then that when you were plowing- and you saw most, you went home and wrote a whole poem about it that there was nothing to do but plough the veal. My generation yeah it's true. I can't tell if we got a better worse. You know I'm back and forth. I agree,

I just think of living this time, like sitting in a dirt field with no electricity, the inside the house, nor to clean up, and just oh, my god, end forming for me eyes. Consider stream that we are sure other I guess it could be were we can have real row by like physical robots dinner with algeria, distracting nosey I wanna get to that. Our goal is to make us laugh they really distracting robots. We look over there dry humping, each other doing like really a mature stir. Dounia we'd have to give them egos because they would want our approval. Yeah, that's finally do. You think we're gonna be able to do that. We will program them to make us. While that's what they're, I see that's what the running and estuary trial in Erin their remembering every outcome and by the end, will just be laughing hysterical,

the whole time lag far above the lily. I let you can hear their bodies what's gonna for the listener, that drugs are air humping, each other ones were in a cowboy had a robot. They have upheld battle that if they're, trying to get both of us? Thank, we have a made of as we do about it squeaking. Noise is really gonna, get me so much, but what about dry hump look. I've always my mean a robot I needed there last year. I think there are funds are more self levels are mark. I don't think they can do. What, like you can do word play all they can do anything. You do work an airplane why that would be funny jews of while we were interviewing people, both the gas and the two of us we're just. We have robots this playing with our hair the whole time, I love that's the dream? Ok, she said the majority of people in meds.

We will now are women. Ok, the acceptance rate for women applicants was forty two point: six percent compared to an acceptance rate of forty four percent for men, the number of women first year, students at: u s, medical schools and twenty twenty two increased to twelve thousand six hundred and thirty women made up fifty five percent of all first year, students in: u s medical swiftly, five grams improvement, yeah, ok with me, talked about trauma and rate of addiction. So then I looked up a score relationship. I like three: if you about having a score for nearly doubles: the risk of heart disease along cancer and increases the likelihood of becoming an alcoholic by seven hundred percent people with the score of five, her higher northern seven to ten times more likely to use illegal drugs and become addicted. Google. Now, that's it.

a policy for you at the more I live with that since we interviewed him I'm really I'm really starting to believe it ice and where I was then, which is, I don't think it's binary heinen, but I think it's huge. I think I think it's more than fifty

we're sad, but what I really still hold firmly onto is: it only makes sense looking backwards. It just doesn't make sense, looking forward yeah and everything in life like if you have the advantage of looking backwards, yet all looked very predictable yeah, so I just because they have to go in the other direction for me just once to prove that its possible. No, I think it's more, you good to know it so that you have empathy and compassion agree and how we look to have law like how we structure society here. Ok, last thing: we talk about the war on drugs and have so many of us have feel once come and keeping superior

because we're not on drugs. Much of it has to do with so many things out of our control and that the war on drugs had such a big part, but like drugs are so bad and people who do that don't be that cause you'll be bad. When I was home, we talked about this on. An upcoming fight was bored when I was home. You know how I sit at my desk, my childhood, last year, when I record from the lobby span and there's some stickers. they're from when I was a wee baby and one of the stickers It was a anti drug sticker and it was like. Oh it said I dream of a drug free world. Have one of your priorities, it's a circle and it says I dream of a drug free world around the perimeter and in the centre abed. Its has just like me exclamation point, and I take that to my: u wanna rwanda, no you're not doing drew now, I'm in the sugar

admiral figments and dates that guy made anti drugs. Although I have- and I, if I was in some circumstances, I would have done a lot more, but anyway, it's just so funny that that, like that was given to me, that's that's like I was in kindergarten, see cs. I mean you know, I'm sympathetic to the people are trying to curb. As square seeds. They don't know what the fuck they're doing. No one knows what they're doing or just like trump were throwing shit at the wall, some of it backfire, some of it kind of works. I know that's the other thing. I forget what guest we had on that did reference all this data, which is really point two, which is if it's in your neighborhood, your odds, also got exponentially, should, like you add ace into availability. stumbling across anybody doing drugs not hard core. Now I mean people

stuff that I, like my colleagues, I did not do thou, but I've smell we'd smoke. My whole child yeah rosebud around you know my dad's doing called my step, dad's doing like it's. It's just around. You know you see people giving other people volumes and shit. You know that there are not the doktor so why my aunt get you know tat now I know it's just so much if my mom know me very clear: laura was like she didn't drink, she didn't do any drugs. She smoke weed when she was a kid but yeah, and so it wasn't like in my house. It wasn't even really much booze right, but I just think as as far as the this specifically babs kingsolver our boy. In the book demon yeah, it's everywhere around him. In addition to all the ace score, yeah yeah, that's one of the couples in season three of couples therapy she as an exit,

she gets prescribed percocet that you know history of any of this Well, she also had a crazy miscarriage right before maybe an abortion, something then the accident, then the percocet, like total relief and then addicted to percocet yeah. That's that can happen too. It's not ten. It's an epidemic yeah, it's still thriving remember. My mom at one point was on some painkillers for an oral surgery. Now she had frozen shoulder. Oh and her shoulder was frozen when we got there, she couldn't move at all it was she like, could barely move at all and she had a surgery for it. No, she didn't. She was just on painkillers for her at or through yeah and my grandma had it too. So I am a little anxious sure

so I move it a lot just to keep it moving. Yeah yeah, keep it lubricated and that she was talking about being on them, and I was like you need to stop. Do you need to stop taking those even as a key year, whether it wasn't that long ago, o occur? And She dared, but it it's a slippery slope for anyone, especially if you have a lot going on at the time like so much of this stuff is timing of everyone. Ok, I think that if for barbie less thing, I want to say about bags, she said it herself, she said: choose my occupation. Does you can do it in dear sixties and still be relevant? Yes, you'll get better. I find that abnormally encouraging because not typically in our business opposite it gets indians get less funny over times are less familiar with. What's really driving

angst of the Yeah culture directors get very comfortable slowly throughout their career. They get to ask for shorter days and shorter days, and she you know as there and then everything This thing you don't see many people in our business doing the greatest worker. There lie you get right or wrong, bring em, you dear get Saturday night clubs or by almost at the end, and then rightly. So you make your environment nicer. So you say, I'm not gonna shoot nights in india. family and well, but some crazy happens when europe all night. Sometimes you know it's all very understandable, but I would say it is a rare accept we even look at physicists. They they have this terrible. If you chart there, there breakthroughs insight, it happens seems to happen all at like twenty two twenty four and then it just starts going down all these things. So this is hugely encouraging. Certainly for me personally, who still has fantasies of writing many books, I guess I'll just incurred said I could still do the best writing of my life.

yeah and that the older you get the more experience you have on earth. You get better results. Either you are better off a little bit later: yeah school cool, she's, so impressive. I she'll, like the writing in my gift guide, Absolutely. Everyone knows its unanimous. All right, that's love! The.