They like I want to be rogan. Are I wanna be lax, or I wonder how Alex cooper? I wonder the next serial, but you can't do that. You can't be a better, MR beazley, MR beast steal from them. Learn from those who are working. You have been infuse yourself into a if you since this podcast you're, probably an avid paquette elsner, perhaps even dappled, with medium yourself, and in a way it does feel. Like regret, this interesting inflection point words both easier harder than average podcast, easier than ever to create this harder than ever to stand out, and I feel like this recently from converse really encapsulates things He says I'm super grateful. I served podcasting before you needed to produce a tv show to cut through all the noise and the algorithms April next it will mark an average of one point: four plus episodes per week for ten years. So look there are

endless graters that we can and probably will bring into talk, but the subject, but today we're talking to two creators that decided to go full force into the world of audio peak pandemic. you might know them s, rear monarchy from the good time show, starting as beat the good time shows grown and since then many guess that you're, probably familiar with people like you and musk, mark Zuckerberg common areas- and I owe me a saga So in this episode we get to hear from zero earthy about their perspective on the world of audio and video. We cover things like this Fighting scale of entertainment, information, the difference between an audience in a community podcast analytics and how those are changing and even what's aromas, learn from his front row experience at twitter recently, but first they say that choosing a co founder. Like choosing a spouse, but in this case three Evan arthur earthy are already married, so I decided to keep things off with a game to see who is pulling their weight in this podcast partnership place. Your bet,

As a reminder, the content here is for informational purposes, only should not be taken as read, go business, tax or investment advice or be used to a vote We any investment or security and is not directed at many investors or potential investors in any easy susie fund for more details. Please, the ac cincy EDA com slashed disclosures. I know both of you are husband and wife, so it does a little bit of competition between the two you see who's poland, the way on this podcast, but am what we're gonna do I sent you both these buttons. You have them in front of you. All right, we gotta merkin. Ok, what we're gonna do is a fun little trivia game about podcasting and creators, and I want to see which one You're knows more about this universe. Then you you,

it have told me this right at the beginning. He knows way more about this world. Yeah. Ok, guys, I'm! So I'm really. A sudden and then whoever hits their button verse gus. Answer: if we get wrong, other person can answer ripe. So the first question, the term podcast is a portmanteau which means as a combination of two different words. What are those two words without it? It I'll give you one. The first one is ipod, ipod, okay and casting again, broadcast. Yes, yes, are they got it and second question what year. Was this term coined I'm going? Go you! You press the button, several voices, I parted press reports So I'm probably I say two thousand for that's right

My dear boy were one line. Ok, I'm a genius. The question that three, according to an edison report, what is the most popular podcast genre comedy Yes, I do wine, okay, so of the people who listen to podcasts according to engines, dial. How many do they listen to per week? How many shows three? No, but maybe violet Well, I'm going to save some. Somebody is answer now to say a number eight that's right ok! you guys if this is not a nonsense, these questions beforehand aright. How many downloads do need per episode according to buy sprout to be in the top

one percent of podcasts and just round that at forty yeah, forty five hundred that's right yeah, so he was in the prep dark. I know I was testing who prepped alright two more, who was the highest paid creator in twenty twenty two, I'm going to say, MR beast: that's right! Okay, so we have one more question: it's tie. At what age did Jimmy Donaldson acre, MR beast start youtube being You re fighting surrounding our I'm gonna stay is sixteen nope but see you get closer earthly. What's your guess, fourteen as closer he started it, thirteen. Where are you earthy wins? We might know Jimmy. Nobody can be nice to respond with a pop up.

I was gonna get to go, but since I one that was really fun, you get the pride of knowing more about the podcasting world, even though you through this segment, need some work we'll talk about it afterwards, if I had wandered, have been better, but our railways with dignity must sexting current, so, as I mentioned before, or we argue and be talking about all things- audio creators, communities, social. So why don't we just start out because both of you have been podcasting for the last couple of years on your good time show which started on twenty twenty? What made you start that show was The fact that you wanted to build a network was it just for fine. What was going through your mind at the time? Ok, ok, I'll, go first, artisan story that it's weedin plan for any of this we'd never saw of ourselves as creators are part sisters or anything of tat sort. So this many twenty december. Will work from home, and I we miss

our friends. We used to go home to india once a year, and we didn't do that that year and you know we basically thought, wouldn't it be nice to kind of wholesale virtual dinner party kind of thing, because we used a hostile like bees founders at home once a month or so, and is to have conversations about building companies and startups and stuff, and we just didn't do that. In person any more, so we thought we could maybe hostess as a live audio session. We started this on clubhouse and that's kind of how the whole show started Oregon. We can tell you how much it was purely accidental and serendipitous and in some ways I think maybe these things have to be. I don't think you can set out in something like this, because there's so much art and intuition and wall kind of came from this very human core of reboard it'd be like talking to people. You know it's really hard to talk to people during co, ed

and we said, let's have a place where we can have a friendly conversation like the first episodes were not not like these not shows they were really like. You know how to go fund raise. How do you do performance review if you're a new manager and we would bring? experts, we knew our other founders, we knew, and we just it was more about giving back to that founded community, and we did a lot lot of those sessions and we thought they were They call in fun but likely in our parents or whatever as an end and be like what was that language, your way, he's talking on this thing, so it is really hard when you do one of these to know what is happening. On the other side, you can't really picture the human being, who is listening to it or watching it, and what are they going through, but I would say, those demi infection find rate artie item in the first few weeks. If you get all these dynamics, from india from here a lot of women, they retired, but I oh I'm, I can't believe you're dead and your you have marc andreessen and elon musk. You know

because your back on my back and on an I'm here and those things just zeal, it gives us an oxygen to duly shows. Why think munting? That's interesting that podcasting? It really does well, sometimes like you're searching for a needle in a haystack in terms of what working you get all types of feedback. Sometimes it's conflicting podcasting is also cut of notorious for really bad but acts are distribution earlier. It really is this maize, where you're, like, I think, something's working people are listening So where would you yes? I was now what kind of show are you trying to create? I think vivid fortunate, because we didn't start out with we want to be creators. I see it people who, like starting part gas now where they like. This is a theme in this issue. keep trying to tell them that's fine, but there's a very good job, that's all gonna change over time, and you might not like see success right away with with this exact vision that you have in mind if you told us two years ago, oh, you have to have this lake whole set up with lights and everything in this.

backdrop in video and all of that we would have been like ned and think so late. I just don't think we're are, but now well, reno has given us a diamond buffer to just like, learn and grow through this and feel comfortable doing what we do and are now think they show. How would you describe where we are now in a visa to grow and prosper, and that in many ways of measuring the often get episodes now which get millions of views and that's really amazing I'll- be really invested in the video to really want to experiment at all different formats, which is a whole interesting. Other conversation also one of the the interesting thing about podcasts is you have to hold two things concert at the same time. One is, I think it didn't have some kernel of truth and authenticity to it? Unless you have that I've seen so many podcasts fail and they often fail, because somebody wants to get out there and be like I'm going to make a successful podcast. I don't think that is a motivation that sustains you all The audience well. Also too broad right, it's kind of like someone saying I want to create a start up. It's ok

What do you want to build? What problem are you trying to solve? What are you excited about? Are absolutely right and it doesn't go anywhere. So I think it needs and put a route, which is you have to really care about the topic, yoda caterpillar topic and talk about it even with nobody's listening to it, and I think the audience can sense. You know the level of what in dna in some ways they have to be early start connecting with you as the narrator the guide, the sharp I was gonna- take them through this and that europe exists in this fuzzy sphere of human connection and intimacy and licences. Then that is this other world which is partnerships, metrics views, retention, top a funnel down lower trade and is incredibly quantifiable, and there is a game there's an algorithm that we all need to play to a what will take this kind of balance, but because, in a day we don't do this. What are living? We cannot do this for fun and unless we enjoy it is the star path, the thing that hasn't really changed as we just we kind of curious people, think even the show, and it sounded, I think, we're just setting it only maiden being

they really nice like how these folks to his talk to them like an hour. We should just like asked them how they do what they do kind of thing, and now that hasn't changed it do yours in and that that's the part that I'm really excited about where every guess they're gonna yesterday that it at an episode and the poor. If bleeding to the episode. That's the part we love and enjoy the most, because it's like discovering this person, like you, know, you're, you've, obviously read about they heard about them by their boats or whatever they ve done. But you and you have to prep you really have to like nor the individual and plenty of time and effort into it. We still during that, and we still very curious about who the person is and kind. Showing audience in that sight of them the elders thinkers creators, whoever they are, that the most fun for us. Well, you know it, I'm taking away, which is something that I have noticed with content for. Quite some time now is a lot of people to europe

earlier there like? I want accrue to blog on a critic podcast and then once they decide to do that, they think about it too much in terms of what their creating so as sample they might take. I want to create an interview style podcast about technology and, ok, but I mean how many podcast are there with that exact same what, and I think when you really consider why you listen to a specific, podcast or rita specific newsletter. It's how they do. And if I were to articulate what both of you do really really well. Is you make it approachable? The pike has feels warm right and even when you think about the way people articulate why they like a podcast or newsletter, etc. It's that how part you never go to someone say: hey I've got this great podcast. May ask why you say all they talk about technology. No go there. how many park ass about technology rise. They all man these host, they just make it feel so approach while there they have no eve, oh they're, not afraid to ask simple question and so I think that's really important, as people consider whether they should pursue a podcast, because technically it's easy.

Than ever. But that doesn't mean that you know it's easy to start a podcast, and I mean from that frame. Is this? lighting scale, between what I would call entertainment and information you lab, I think, hit number one yesterday surrounding you shared that in a chat wherein- and I feel that view information, dance. I go into the union law podcast and I come out and, unlike my god, I need to reshape my wife. everything wrong and then there's other podcast, but quite frank, At the end of that podcast episode, I've taken nothing away, but I loved right I'm here I dream enjoyed being there. How do you think about sliding scale with your podcast you climb, separated from your own

analogy or superman lab in Andrew is amazing at it because he brings to the table one. This amazing life experience that he should listen to him and he talks about his skateboarding life when he's been in some dark times and overcoming that or that part of it infused with the fact that he has this huge academic background is genuinely curious and he really wants to get to the truth of things. So one is you're putting yourself into it and you can't really divorce years or so. When this show started taking off, I kind of went into this sort of analysis of all the great interviewers, the last twenty thirty years, I tried to map out what they were doing, because you're trying to square the circle that you're trying to square a circle of something which is authentic to you, something which is fun for you, something which is of some value to the audience. It can be information, it can be something which is great for a guest if you have an interview, kind of content and something kind of works there in terms of the algorithms and numbers and it seems impossible equation, and I sort of go through history ontario who is going to figure,

If everyone has it one stout larry king raid, maybe one of the greatest broadcasters interviewers of all time, if you read his biography, read a style. He is all about. I'm going to go in assuming my audience knows nothing about this person and actually he's famous for doing no prep right, but it brought this amazing purity which he was like. What are you working on? Tell me what you wrote right and he could sort of communicate the honest version of lex

new yorker on the cb, like I don't know who this person is. Tell me what you got. What are you about right and there is an honesty to the condition and obviously Larry king was one of the legends that on one end of the spectrum, on the other end of the spectrum, you have somebody like howard, stern, howard, stern, maybe polarizing character, but one of the things he likes to do is put in amazing research. Howard show with Jon Stewart one of his first questions is he pulls out the very first joke. Jon Stewart ever said in a public setting and stuart is bolder. Raid is a wholly of afraid to the other spectrum is sort of the wipe or the format of the show. So, for example, if it being a hard journalism show, are you doing sixty minutes right? I'm going to hold you accountable gripe, that's one version of things. There's another version of things setting is closer to where we are, which is you are doing something interesting and I want to understand, and the audience hopefully understand through me how it is it you do what you do it deliberate for dance between the guest and the horse, and I want them to feel like they got. The best version of me out there I'm a huge fan of the genre,

bribe of the famous espionage writer who tragically recently passed away. He hated doing press edit talking to journalists and one time he wasn't france and he met his host for what are some random venture and he was a god I hated. I don't even speak french well and he did some research for him and this horse's name is but not before he hosted. Basically, let's call it the equal the tonight show in front. I think he killed us and look. Our ape was nervous. He was like I hate this. I'm gonna make a fool of myself. I hit the whole indirect in the first of these seconds. He's like this. The most amazing cornish never had. He says it is not because we were was good, looking charming funny, smart, even me. He probably why some words in all these things, but thing was written instantly, could communicate to the guest was you are to be ok peer with me and when I saw that right and I'm not going to claim, we even get close to any of that, but it sounds like this is what our goal is like. Every show that I want to have the guests be like I'm going to be okay, I think if you get that everything

it's really fall into place. You know what that reminds me of this analogy that I like to use for podcast specifically, which is its kind of crazy when you think about it. Lets say our part are typically Maybe an hour long, the listeners with you we're an hour every week, maybe more than that, and so it's very different than reading a newsletter for five minutes or stumbling upon a blog post, randomly online and spending a couple of minutes where you don't even know who wrote it or the face behind the posing, and so it's a very intimate form of content like a cast of your best friends, and so I think you're right that there there's more of a friendship that needs to be created, not just with the person your interviewing, but that parasol relationship with the listener, and so that's why I think you know framed it as entertainment, but it is this warmth in this connection. Let you meet

create, and I, like the framing that you you described there, it's like you're you're, making someone feel comfortable like they want to be there and you can't fake it, and sometimes it takes a lot of work and it's not the same for every person. Anybody at the top of the field. How can I figure out a system of how to make things work and I'm always trying to get that system out of them? I think as getting them off their talk track earthy. How do you think about that? How have you effectively as you going into these interviews with people who are so mean a trained and have done so many interviews likely a lot of those interviews have the same quest. it is being asked- and I found at least listen to both of your shows. You do somehow find a way to get them off. Their talk track. Give any thoughts on how we managed to do that. I gonna have a different roads densher, aimed as I look at it is our job here is: do one make sure the guest feels like this is a good use of it? the time they here for an hour, they usually really busy. People are other job,

do we know we have all these people- and we know article hearts of audience warlike listening watching their off and to be in a not from the same, what did we are but aspiration lee. They want to be here leg. I think of our job. there's two being service of them and to make Third, that we are able to bridge the gap between what would they want and what what is interesting to them and getting the guest to feel leg. They can convey that in that time frame. They have. It sounds really clinical when I put it that way, but really like an hour every week of somebody spending the time to listen, huge investment on their part. And we want to make sure that it is. chile valuable to them, I know what this person is working on, or what they're doing or watered the day to day looks like? Are the book that note or anything of that sort, but I think it is still worth it to ask the question so that

The person was listening on the other and get the value out of it, because I I assume that they know, and so some of the glass It may just be like what advice do you have four founders kind of thing and it sounds so basic, but sometimes that's kind of where, you. Do you get interesting answers and that kind of breaks them out of that more of the pr spiel, which is they here, The goal launch their book and they can talk about the book, but then I'm like no weight, but you did that. Why did you start that company? Why did you do this thing? and then I go away you're actually interested in me as a person who did that? Ok, let me look doc you about that. I also think about the current. All right? You mention that. Sometimes, if the simplest questions that people get really excited about- and I am sure all of us and people listening have put out content four turns on really smart or say you'll miss I like so thoughtful. I spent two months on this and then at flops and sentences, then placed things that people just really

I turn to the really human things which also import. to consider is that a podcast is effectively a product right, and so you are getting even though it is limited with podcasting some signal back. So what are you learning what he said? attention to and what has worked in terms of actually growing your shall one common to make, as you think, of it as a product whose product whose market, where customers, what a building for them, how you finding them I would be finding you how we can help with the door. Are they stay this up, just a basic questions of any product? You know ass, basing the consumer will really go for part. Gus. Also an offer famous name can help with that, which is you get an elon musk era, man who is huge in india? A lot of people who have no idea who you are will find you, but that is at one time value. But how do you retain them and what we have found is retaining them is because they start to, hopefully trust us and they listen to more of her compositions, and the thing I think from the product will we realize is fast iteration.

Like will change multiple things. We try out things all the time about everything from some nails do lobbied handles socio. You know how we trailer the first few seconds later retention, her nap easy to get like super caught up in the metric satan but the things I look for, I think we're sure, I'm sandwiches you get these acquisitive episodes, which only big guess, but I really look put attention which is like you know, and this is the the shed we came forward, this guest buddies staying footing. both kind of thing, and we get comments like this all the time. That's gonna when we know we're doing our jobs, because people are watching a lot of the episode. I oftentimes. We see the average number of minutes. Views are watches like anywhere between twelve the fifteen minutes of our episode, which is twenty five percent of the episode. We also look for like attention overall, like availed user new users

hey are you coming back and listening to new shows that we are putting together every week kind of thing? So I look for that and you probably lose because you're doing this, do you have a very strong and you do feel when something is working because It's in your email is fired at your email legs, people that you now yeah yeah people. You know It is also the opposite: read something totally didn't work and that is dead silence. The hard part sometimes is whether we speciale expectation or your collaboration, reacting, something gonna work and totally bombs. I was going to say that our group will vote had that. Do we have a lot of those and oftentimes it's because we didn't quite understand how to get the best out of guest something about the way we had like tried to make this conversation in these points and that the communication style work didn't resonate

the listeners owners, in other words not to the tappans, which I think sometimes and I'm more guilty of, does not these up and be going to represent all ready wanting a certain kind of it. But I ain't you how this guess you're like some at summits, member from a very Please you ought to find. You know that work. You want to sort of fan out over the thing or you're thinking this person expert in X, Y and z, let's awesome x, Y and Z, because everything that it had to go to work with the audience. In particular, we have got to look the team and when you do that, sometimes it worth, but sometimes it has a certain level of artifice and social constraints. Do what is really a and free flowing human conversation were, I think the audience can easily lead I can feel it ended. Our can ascribe. To be honest, I don't answer

like sometimes you have it because somebody's launching a new book or new movie. You have to ask about that. That's great right, it's kind of part of the deal because they want to promote it's amazing. Sometimes, if you're a fan, you want to ask them about that particular thing, and I tried to get better at it. I've tried to give more space and just follow the conversation. It's a tricky and but I do think that's another factor: hey oftentimes. That chair would be like this person to next in this light we really should really go. He would be very serious about the prepping erratic hadn't. It's for the lake show up on it and goof off. You know, and I'm sure it would be like. But I really want to do any lecture them be via this is governed love and your point. The listener can tell I mean to remedy we're talking about this before we see recording- and I had the same thing, I'm new to this role and the first couple podcast. I did I way over prepared- and I did it

exactly what you're saying, whereas like there is an arc, people want to hear about friends person, I'm going to make sure I get it out of them going to make sure. I asked this really amazing, well crafted question and then to your point. Sometimes that works, and sometimes it just feels really fabrics and going back to the analogy of podcast kind of being like people's best friends? Imagine showing up to. a friend's house and there some other friends there and someone is like we have to talk this today we have two. You know we have to follow this conversation arc, and I think yeah you know. Sometimes if people want to talk about that, it's in the news and everyone's excited about it great, but when it I don't feel organic think about how strange that is in real life. He told the same on podcast a dolly an I'll say right. Sometimes I'm guilty of this sometimes something where I think the underlying psychology is like. I'm going to show you how much I m about this totally love you ok, so quickly, uniquely, he loves you do that delay. So when you

days, and then you followed up with this. In your mind, was this what you wanted thing It can feel a whole lot place where it comes from, but sometimes when you, when you finally meet somebody- and you want to show them that you've done the work radio do all these things alien. I do like a one minute thing of like well, you obviously did this. this. Indeed, oh I'm going to do this year. You did that and you know this and ended Billig they ve been away. This is good, but I did at finally railway. He really I'm learning chrome is a genuinely here. You have very surprising thing, which I didn't realize right to praise me for sure, and I was talking to a really famous person about interviews, and they said you know what, when a fan interviews me they'd one, it's amazing, because supposing the fount of your work, your craft, we will we book one of its great. You feel good about it, but we also feel real pressure bread, because if that person asks you re legacy to micro turn, europe tell me about crossing or by a rustle and reading the game. You know like kind of poetry, to continental, for disposal

story. I know on the spot to deliver something because, despite the two fire they farm for you, but they won't do because they like this puts us- I mean so much to them. I need to give them something right, namely feel pressure to, and pressure is never a good sport for a conversation sharing comes from this. Itself, like the generosity of spirit where he just he wants to make this. can you can see the yearning? Let limit give you the real secrets, us of podcasting or or podcast series. Considering s artie kicks me under the about here, which I think that by god do I put my story is like that is we. You know I leave as an exercise listening to be, if you can spot the moments in every episode now have to know how many kicks there than in this in castle fire. I think so you're going to say. I think my my secret weapon, which has many podcast hosts secret weapon is your editor. I think

from people who are eleven years. Forget that they're, like on my gosh, you so kind size. You have such great questions. I'm, like you, didn't hear the ones I cut out, but I wanna at least end this segment while podcasting with a question which I think either to the point of delivering value to less nervous, even though it is very much an art. Are there any tricks, any growth tax, anything that was like an eighty two whether it was something as simple as like choosing the right thumbnails, whether it was choosing? video instead of just audio. Are there any things that may be a new podcast or should really keep in mind as like? Ok just make sure you check these box here so that impression, which ones very mean, but is use all parts of the buffalo until basically what it sounds very many buffalo Sorry, but I did everything I a container, but we do this. We have

our offer, video file and a bunch of audio files. Rightly, that's thing we have you know what I think you need to do is to take that and then re purpose, that in every single way for every single platform and somebody gaddi been assured us that every well really puts a lot of effort to take every bit of content and make it the most in need. The words in passing. before each platform? That means on youtube. We are really into video on audio. You want to have amazing, sound engineering you to have lead an interest. You want to cut it up into sharp versions for a real or a tech talk, and then you want to extract the text out of it and the learnings and put it on twitter or on sub stack one of the ways think about it as your podcast really hard, because you will either native podcast platform say it just apple It's not discover mechanism that is no added at the right thing to do is exactly what about, but not of other platforms have discovered a mechanism that twitter

instagram youtube. Obviously the more you need to do what that platform wants that easy. It also means just keep changing a lot of stuff. We just got I gave you do redrawing shards. So let me just keep playing around with the different formats and trying to keep a native to those those platforms. The india just have to keep at it. Yeah what's important. There is. We talked about a podcast, being kind of like a product if you're founding a company you're, not just like hey we're going to create this product, we're going to put it on one day. Fish in general or we're just gonna, keep the same forever. You test a bunch of different things out you test marketing channels. You just copy you enter it product. Another thing I want to hear from you about is difference between what you might call an audience and a community, something that I think is interesting that ventured into recently, as these in person of that sum, and really true. in what you're doing digitally into something physically audiences kind of union directional a bunch of people listening to your podcast, but a community. There's connections

within the community, is of less nursed other listeners. And so how are you thinking about that? They think that's the long term goal. We want to have these courts of people when they engage with as it's not just value. From our shoe and our content, but from each other being in that same, go hard drive like that saving the ideal in state for us the meet up that we did. I've done one so far and be hoping to do a couple more this year. Wasn't chennai it's a city that become from india and the really special right to go back home and we got a lot of help there. We have people on the ground who basically off those venue and offered to like you know, do the whole rsvp, I figured out who's coming and that evening, when we had people coming in, that's I think kind of when head both of us where we were like This is really call. We have a couple hundred people here who showed For no reason, other than to just come see us and listen and hang out with us and do ass, they were like wait. A second they give kind of gone from just being these park as host soil, a goofy getting guess

lake show up to being like these people. out of them, that I think that seventy percent of them are like founders, and it was great because they, I got value from just talking to each other in one of the most interesting because they voted on this topic is given kelly's legendary one thousand true fancy basely. The idea is that if you kidding anything of any product, you want to find your first thousand italy through France right who will consume anything that you doing. They trust you. If you do that, you're really after the races, I think the community really comes from that, which is, are these people connected to each other? Defining valley? portrait of just what we do and look. We are not doing the job we do. You really want to do this if people are going to be like this helped me build a company on this. Helped me get I'd, make it easier and that out now folks would think of doing a meet up even without us. You do needs as some sort of that kind of goal or I do feel you ball. What's your mission in that case, because you both said you're kind of stumbled into for fun it's been going. Well, you like it but to mine

you're not running ads on it. I dont think of and to sell to something like spotify, and so what is the end state of this really believe that technology entrepreneurship is one of the biggest forces. all in all the movies. It you mean the word good. We want one It truly benefited. Us boy has really benefited arsenic. We would not have met with our technology. We met online in our twenty years ago. It took this is our way of maybe giving back it's not as catchy as other company's mission statements and stuff, but it works for us I have to ask you guys you seem very aligned on a lot of your answer is like what are you guys disagree on? I'm gonna get married couple. I actually I dont know if there's no, those I have a separate park has from asia since he podcast. I do with my husband and Let me just say we don't agree on everything on all the time or the baron built. We do disagree quite a bit. I did get over the table and I must have enough. I think

either part of it is this. I am very left brained as a person and also much more introverted, and I look It has a very what what are they here far. What do we have to convey kind of thing? I look at dinner indicated it has to be really clean, like the narrative The story, I think firm, is more of like our beast he's a showman. He bring Ty energy he's very extroverted people, love like it You can see them even before we hit that record button that already yapping away this expend twenty minutes just chatting and I'm like. Stop, stop stop save this lake serial for this show and they just love being in the room with him and just chatting with him, author of the ultra liberal, with wasn't holding the show honest, but, like she'd, be the one which is like hey. We need to do this. What this person tried like, Yeah she's, one of them holding me honest and sometimes or often a creative kind of weird tangent, and I think we balance it out, but yeah. We do disagree

Have you ever been done so so am I want about community as well. You ve been creating, is what's up no one in creators their great are they you mention this like energy, that's rerum have like. I don't How you're always posting in their finding all these things from twitter or elsewhere like? How are you thinking about building those communities. I think there's gonna be a shift in the way we think about social media headlines. Conversation in twitter for started around two thousand eighty seven you just come in there and you put what he had for lunch. Dinner is perfectly fine everyone just kind of us, a friend's nobody gonna dumped you, and then it was happening. well, you know next day you know what is social media? What is online community eyes? Chief, In many many exciting they said we ve seen the rise of you. Do and then instagram and then snapshot of the and then be able a discard, and I can keep going on and On- and I think so. There are no these kinds of different species that people come together

we can have gotten more aware off, like the different modalities of like each of these platforms and visa dingley, where fifteen years I'd be remiss not to ask you about your experience, a twitter and, where you see that evolving or how you see the kind of home matrix of social, because if people are too where you, you obviously have had some pretty met. In very many did somebody on the recent acquisition by ilona at least you got to see, can appear front row front into seep. People are there or I think, what's happened? If we go back five six years ago, it felt like social media was in bit of a status? Alright, you had to the companies which really dominated. I worked for some of them and you kind of posted in ways we expected everything was going to be public, but the last we're sending you seen an explosion of innovation and things have shifted a few dimensions one. It is people being moved,

im, a follower graph dude now having ai and recommendations that I have so much of what we do youtube the conditions I wrote of it tiktok the following graph: opposite, it doesn't matter. It's only the for you page that really matters tutors I'll, be expecting with that. So that's one dimension. The other dimension, I would say, is in kind of the size of the spaces. Mark Zuckerberg was thinking that so much of the content on instagram. If somebody takes instagram posts and then sends it to a group chat and spots off a conversation to canada's public to private space transition happening and visit just wasn't happening before. Third, I spent all my day job when autism kick him into the people will contribute up and repartee, and I think repartee and crypto is a whole other thing we can get deeply, but one of the core ideas behind it is part of the people and decent realization. The idea that hey needs to have one central set of people running everything and calling the shots and having all the economics. How do we do it in a way? where these things are no protocols in everyone's collective ownership that a bunch of these are Zeit gazed ships happening. I was busy in helping ilona twitter. I was there

you know under the first to thinkin, and for a kind of a period of time after it now feels like social is active and alive again four years ago, have years ago. There was a time when you're like well, I have facebook, I have instagram. I have twitter, maybe snapchat them. That is that right, there is going to All this was media. Anybody ever needs, and that is not true anymore yeah. Are they gonna hear your perspective on this idea of that? greater economy and specifically the crater middle class, racine independent critters, be able to kind of lucratively monetize their followers. audio is interesting, because if you actually look at the top podcast de charts they're, all people who had large serbian who are already successful, already had reach we're really dominating there and you could say that's partially because of the discover, ability or manipulation that exists with an audio do any thoughts their mother.

we gonna be able to build this court and quote crater middle class with an audio. Specifically, you are kind of what you measure great end with audio there's, just not a whole lot that saw measurable right now. A lot of it is stake hidden behind these big black boxes and control veil, a different different entities to saturated we play this game you're, looking at like forty five hundred downloads and episode to weaken the one percent. So where does the chart fall off like war? Does distribution may cause getting that there's? No transparency of metrics as such? I think if you have better metrics and discover ability and not just helping creators be successful at more tools. I think you're gonna get there. The other part of it is at the end of the day if are you making money through brands or sponsorships at any of these brands need to start seeing value right, and I think that feedback loop is not quite there yet, where it's like well okayed. This person talked about this product,

they gave a coupon code and the attribution system behind it. Like a lot of, it is still super early days, yet it's going to happen, but I think it's just going to be awhile. I sort of disagree with you that all these people, black audiences, because we were the top sharks right yeah because will We remain not have a larger came out of nowhere. That ought be at the top of charts. Lex Friedman came out of nowhere really to build one of the most popular part around their deafening. Celebrating workable. Emma chamberlain has one of the popular party as it, but then our folks, who really butchered off like a camera. I think you're right, that in these people didn't have followings, but they didn't burst into the scene. the thing that we're missing as it took a really long time for a lot of these folks will keep chipping away at it. It just looks to us, like overnight, success because it suddenly got into this. I gazed on everybody's lake oberman legs and

It just hear that been vague, yod eagle chamber that you are in, but they ve been doing this for years now. So I think that's kind of going back to the point of it just takes a while lagos. If these, like the breakout stars, don't break out overnight, it takes like five six seven years to get there, which were baby. Somebody listened because they want to start their own podcast. I will say this is amazing, search like ninety percent of podcasts, don't last episode, twenty and the remaining ninety percent, or last episode, forty. That is so true. So if you're doing a podcast number one, you have to really enjoy doing it every single week, because if you don't enjoy it, you will not make it episode, ready living on record episode. Forty, you kind of have to looked into yourself read. I don't look at the number

the numbers of easier for quite a bit of paper, but if that make a defining and then you can talk about whether you want to quit or not, what do you mean what you learn so much about the art of part casting quarters working? What is not the idea? Artists can tell people- and this is only about the product market for it and how we can go to start up is, I suppose, you park, as they will have very first park as the recorded entire season before the agony, and that is bad because I think what happens? Is you getting no feedback? I started this person and their recorded a thing like this cleanup asserts win back back you're, putting it didn't pull over. Three four mindset is present. Maybe this really work, but it's problematic when something is working dinner going with you

I can only react on it like next year and that's really hard, because you need to react on a week to week your ooda loop, you know your observe orient decide act. That loop needs to be super sharp, look at what's happening, change it up the next week, change of the week after and that iteration cycle by episode, forty you'd, be so dramatically better than you were in episode. One yeah. Definitely I mean both of you have been founders or have grown companies to significant size. And ass, we ve talked about a couple times here at the infrastructure is not great. We don't really get as much signals. We like the tooling is pretty nation, at least as we compare it to something like text. If you put your found her hat on, are there certain Companies are gaps that you think really need to be addressed. I could help protesters like you and I did a few parts to look at this rate. One is the prep getting the guest booked on our show vienna. Actually huh The conversation regarding the tools for recording it. All of that there is

look at it initially used to be super manual. The tools were not that great guess booking was like calendar. The chaos of like going back and forth between the three of us and so late. If that is the garden a bit more streamlined, then paused regarding we used to struggle with legal transcripts. What do we do now break this into clubs so that its bite sized consumable? We and die instead reels. What do we do? There? Tiktok has to look different, feel different. Sharks is a little bit different. It has to be under a minute now reels Alec can be a little bit longer, so you kind of sort of have to this out in a lot of other tools that are like now coming in playing a really good role there and then post right leg. Looking at metrics and staff, these anchor view simple gas. We look like park as download numbers. You do has been really good luck. I really like the studio, metrics page, that a lot of these lake tools that are now coming in

just getting really good. Practically like month to month, he had seen legs to function, changes in what value their offering so I do think we had like a really interesting time. Now we tried to prep for a couple of episodes of pulley, pushing it to charge you beating oh yeah, and that that was kind of fun because we faded, like a bunch of like this. these are the books. Everything hears what happened. We forgot to preference. I really have it comes out. I did RT at the last minute. It was like I dunno what to ask and then says she fitted it to chat tbd, and we got a bunch of somebody like pretty kurt, said the questions, dishes and terms like yeah. These are pretty good and I was like I did not come up with them. Ted Gvt. Did you know it's so funny? I have to confess so for the trivia at the very beginning, around half those questions, I just asked tragedy. What are some that's one facts about podcasting. I came

If you're on my own but yeah chive deputy where's, my little assistant as well, I think sometimes in the future, is going to be like that is going to be just like you know, when you buy a product on a supermarket y'all like you know that what continues like this is barely human generated, then person to ai participation in this podcast yeah. You know I heard mark, actually talk about this on a recent interview with DJ. He talked about man and which is one of the most popular too the chosen, I think, on time, and He writers of the show talked about how they would sit in a room and they would come up with a bunch of different plot lines and they would come up with them partially because there were like, let's get all the obvious stuff out of. Let's just like an array of what everyone expects and madmen has now become known for the fact that they actually, like you, don't know, what's gonna happen, it takes a left turn. That's another way were even as I was preparing for this interview, I was like yellow. these chuckie bt some of its ok, some very good, but even the good stuff like. Let me come up with better question

how exactly like these are? The obvious things that everyone expects to that that I can almost guarantee that a previous interview has asked and so he I also think it's a tool till I push the good generic baseline. I think, and I think it's important to see what that baseline looks like, so that you can actually do the work of the italian version of humanity right. It's like you, google! Would you heard right of something about this person? What would you get at? It gives you somewhere torture, yeah. Well, the truth has come up. Both of us are already using Higgins. To help with our interviews, all I want close things out with a question, because both of you have had the very cool opportune, you talk to some of the most impressive people in the world. I mean elon musk, mark zuckerberg, calvin harris we're talking like a cross industries or school heads as well, I'm ends

Well that came to mind, as I was thinking about what question to ask you about all these wonderful folks that you've spoken to is something that I've heard and have all talk about, which is being jealous of someone like a celebrity, for example, isn't very productive, because if you really think about, if you really think about Every aspect of their wives, icu, their loved ones, are like how they spend their day, how wealthy our or not, ultimately, its very rare. If true at all that, you would want to trade every aspect of your life for that person's life instead of just comparing once liver of it, but I thought that frame the interesting to ask you of all the people you ve talked you who would you actually want to trade lies I threw over him later on in every aspect of tea. This person, like they're they're stature there, there warmth their personnel

either the happiness they bring to life like was there someone that you were like wow this person you know, maybe unexpectedly, has really captured me and I I really like respect the way that they've led their lives on. Well, it's a very good question. I actually was once on a cliche, but in some ways: there's no real one person you want to beat, because in crypto there's a sense of you know. We talk about proof of work and proof of stake and when he talked to somebody in a like, they have done the work right and that person like, for example, let's say somebody is interested, be like well. why can't I beat I be transplanted into elon musk and in our I have billions of dollars and I well these companies and it be fine weather. it's not that you want to set up a sum of his experiences and all the journey and that what makes him uniquely him. So I don't think, there's one person I would really want to transplant into, because I would never be that person. You know I would be me

in living that presented me my refund for a day or two, but ultimately would probably get bored, because I haven't seen the journey what I've tried to do it. Secondly, we steal things from certain people, for example, mark ii, just an encyclopedia of everything, turn off the coffee caught some like fifty year old book. it'll at which page number I gonna call you have this in your head, like it. This is crazy. You just go off on that. That is amazing we had like, and this house coup is a legend. The programming language designer he's worked in one problem for forty years and just horn. That graphite is the best in that in the world and this something so romantic and pr about that notion of, like you, work on one thing and you're going to be undisputedly the very best in the world at it, and every one of these I'm trying to steal something from them, but I'm like hartley could I steal some version of what That person has and apply to my own life and my one job, but I when what do you think, as I'm recording the episode I kind of look at it and based on your question, I'm like would I be here?

What would I be there? I would rather be here yet they're having them the time of our lives, is Take across making the day will usually with god. There is a lot of these are like late at night or kids earnestly, so we really have lincoln. Bad here, that's like it shows both of them. They got the baby cameras these four. there really great a very impressive, but they don't have the life that we do so I would rather do less than anything out overturning group advice, piece of advice, but think very creative ability. I want to be rogan or I won't be lax, or I wonder how Alex cooper I want to be out of the next video, but you can't do that and not because you're, a talented or keep worked, but you're, not them where they are doing the thing which works for them and MR peace talks about this all the time. You can't be a better, MR beast in MR beast right because it is so native, be headway. You need to find the thing which works for you and then be the very best how to steal from them. Learn from this.

What working, but you have to infuse yourself into it. Yeah. If you listen to his Joe rogan episode, there's a part where Joe talking to him about him dreaming up thumbnails, and this idea Mr mysteries has worked on coming up with youtube video title. for years and he promise him so he gives no word, I think he's like dog or something and that the title, let me real comes up with. In that moment, I was like shock that was so good. Gimme. The brain had processed it for like a millisecond enzo cheer point. Yes, everyone is we're all these guys have been trained on a data site which is our lives, and so you can't really just copy and paste that two summarizes life like mister booth, up he's a savant about online video. You an example you watch using to relax we're trade and the middle east, like that's what we're talking. All I'm saying is your metrics and media

yeah baby had him on our club brochure rate. You could see me like this part is boring to the audience and there is a part of his brain which solitaire is interesting. Is it boring late and it's been trained like an inlet or millions of videos at his watch and he and he see what all the time you cannot compete with him on that ride, but you will be the best at something else, rightly keychain. Distribution is not an indian couple a twenty year. They have a bunch of jobs in this going on, like I know some self have book, but, like you have to be the best you possible, someone's gonna club that, but no I could agree more and and disparate listeners, one tipp to maybe a service that is if you ve ever been in a situation where someone is asked you, how did you notice that that is? that your brain is more trained around than other people's over me, I've been a marketer for awhile and I'll just be like driving down the street. We like to see that fine on the back of a truck like that's genius, marketing or like I'll, be at the movie and I'll see some copy, and I'm always pointing this out kind of subconsciously, and then people like- you notice out tire little thing somewhere and I guarantee

Everyone listening has aspects of that in their own life, whether people just like or that from my intention to that everyone, everyone else they you know they ve drowned out, but maybe, if you're designer you notice, like the aesthetic within a restaurant differently than someone else, that's a wonderful place to I think you some money both of you sermon earthy. This is so fond and other foreign nea laughed at this point. In time there was no almost milking so our third can count at various is one just like it lay audience get email us are treated as it were that whilst we leave it as an exercise in, let us thank you. Sunlight thinks tenth As listening to the sixties, the podcast, if you like this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave review for television We also recently launched on youtube youtube dot com? ass, a sixteen see underscored, video or you'll find exclusive video content.

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