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hi. It's seen a shave from vanderbilt brought here to tell you guys about factor. It's my one: stop shop for nutritious, fully prepared meals, which means there's no grocery shopping, no meal planning and know what cooking required they have tons of options to choose from every week. Factor is like having a personal shaft bites without the weight. It only takes two minutes say he any plus all their meals or fresh, never frozen visit, factor, meals, dot, com, slash, Shea. Fifty four, fifty percent off your first order. This is ninety nine percent, invisible, I'm roman mars, last spring, the mayor of new york city Eric atoms, held a press conference at a construction site and lower manhattan. Thank you Thank you so much. He was there to promote your pillar in his housing plan. We be a city of yes, we have to think differently and we have to learn. In into how

We have a different approach to housing. Adams was wearing a heart hat and a windbreaker that said mare Eric Adams on it and he wasn't speaking at any regular hold construction site best producer crisper, ruby, mere Adams was giving his speech in a former office tower a few years ago. This building was filled with cubicles and polymer desks and copy machines and, most importantly, thousands of white collar workers, but during the pandemic The workers stopped coming in and is twenty four story building sat largely empty, so today the building is being run of it and by next summer. it's gonna be filled with over five hundred new apartments right now in manhattan, eighteen percent of office space is vacant. At the same time, the city of new york has a major housing problem with more than a hundred thousand people using the municipal shelter system. So Eric Adams and city officials are talking a lot about taking

was empty offices and filling them up with people. The bottom line is, we must make it easier to convert office buildings like the one we just toy into housing for new yorkers It makes it clear what we can do with more of our vacant office building. You know we talk millions of square feet of office space. The Adams administration actually launched a task force to look into this idea on a big scale. Leading the task force is dan karadzic, he's the director of new york's department of city planning, and he's excited about the concept. Everybody knows you know either themselves or their friends or family who are working differently than they did before the pandemic. Everybody knows somebody, who's paying way too much for rent, can't find a suitable apartment for them or their family. Using.

those office buildings as a way to take a dent out of that problem. It makes a whole lot of sense, new york is not the only big city where this is happening. There is talk of office to housing, conversions in chicago and allay can philadelphia in atlanta and toronto and Actually pretty much. Every big city in north america was to housing versions, are a hot idea right now they ve always benefit.

at hobby horse for urbanists, but after the pandemic, the idea hit the mainstream in hearing about it. I have to admit I got pretty excited because things they are not good right now. In most big cities, there's a housing crisis and empty office buildings or creating a different crisis. No two urbanists as a doom loop, that's when empty office towers, have this domino effect that lead to lower property taxes which hurts city services and they kill life downtown which affects other businesses. It sounds bad doom, loop, converting an office into housing. Well, it solves all these problems using one piece of property. I mean this solution, just seems so obvious so elegant, but for all the hype around. This idea

discovered. There are surprisingly few projects actually underway and many developers just don't want to get involved. I had to find out why not architects, urban planners and super fans of office conversions talk a lot about adaptive, reuse, but when you take a building and use it for something different from its original purpose. Proponents of adaptive reuse love to sites to brand, and book and bbc miniseries how buildings learn What I'm really interested in is not architecture and its buildings. The problem with architect Is that its allergic to time? Because architects keep being asked lasting monuments frozen in time. the buildings. Have no such presumption buildings live in time. The same way we do one of brains, big ideas is that all buildings are predictions for what the future will be like and those predictions are usually wrong. The basic functions and uses of most buildings change

pretty radical ways over their lifespans. Allowing building is one that keeps being improved and refined until it reaches an adapted state. But an adapted state is not an end state. Even the best of buildings has to be refreshed and challenge from time to time or becomes a beautiful, Perhaps big cities have a lot of these beautiful corpses at the moment and fans of adaptive reuse want these buildings to become housing, and that's because the greenest building is one that's already built in for this kind of office reuse, you have the potential to create new housing without riling up the people, already live close by its appealing to because you know if we were to confer of downtown offices, in particular in the housing that does it really is a lot of their concerns around gentrification and neighbourhood opposition that you would get from building new housing, Emily badger as rapporteur for the upshot at the new york times

fundamentally at the end of the day you know were- were really not sort of changing. The fundamental nature of how a property or a block or a neighborhood looks to people who are walking by you're just sort of changing the activity that's happening inside of the building new development without riling up neighborhood opposition. I mean that sounds great, so is it really possible? The future of housing has been bright there. This whole time towering between a parking lot and a sweetgreen. I wanted to find out

and to see an office to residential conversion? Up close your eyes, I m Chris region have done outcome christmas. I actually got to visit the same building in europe's financial district, where Eric Adams did his press conference. It's a construction site on water street in lower manhattan and from the street. You can see the facade changing the old curtain. Glass on the outside is being replaced by these big windows, separated by light gray, sills getting their irene it's was pretty quickly. An active construction site is maybe not the best place for a podcast interview. I also discovered I'm afraid of open walled. Elevators, oh and I had no idea how to fasten the hardhat

it's embarrassing. But what do I have to do with the hat? To get it to this sort of thing? Am I doing okay, I'm entitled to a little loose? It feels like yeah. After establishing my obvious experience on construction sites and my total comfort with the situation. I sat down with two of the people leading the water street conversion effort, they're, actually part of the same team. Who owns the building back when it was an office tower the to anchor tenants were insurance and health and medical Companies sewers, three thousand people coming in daily. This is malik, ajar Malik is the project manager for this building and before that he was the property manager when it was still in office sees older. You know nineteen navies, nine, these cubicles and corner offices and the carbon in the fluorescent lighting, and it is just it's hard to even picture This was even here before Malik says he

since the old office tenets, but he's excited for the new apartments to open up he's actually planning to live here after the construction is finished. I will you live here, I I've I've been here for six years. I I got to. I got to see it through when it's done yeah Ok, then, product malik and his colleague So we shall really work for a development company called the Van pardon group. They also develop the property next door, which used to be offices, and now it's residential and their hoping to do lots of conversions like this in the future. They work on all kinds of construction projects, but they don't talk about this building like a regular construct project they talk about it like a mission. What we're doing here is is impact for huge, that's, joey and doing our for the overall greater good and sustain it. only goals and environmental goals for the city, so it

of what you have where we're going. We are now we're going to a finished unit or something that will go down to the third floor and will go in. Theory. These conversions make a lot of sense, but walking around The water street construction site, it became obvious to me these projects are more complicated than swapping out one kind of tenant for another and for all those folks who just want to take empty office towers and fill them with condos. They really have their work cut out for them in how buildings learns to brand talks about how for a building to be long lasting. It needs to be flexible. A great example of this or old victorian town houses in san francisco store brand talks about how these town houses often find second lives, ass apartments and each floor. There are three to six rooms, so the houses are easy to divide into two or three flats. One per floor:

The rooms are modest in size and unspecified and function. These houses offer boundless flexibility. An office building by contrast, does not have the same boundless flexibility, at the water street site there were all these bear wires and steal beams everywhere. It look like they were getting the building. It's definitely a massive massive undertaking, maritime reporter emily badger. You know if people who, the catering for their sir envisioning. You note. We just need to throw up a few more walls and install some new toilets like that, is not at all what we're talking about office. Conversions are a ton of work because most office buildings aren't designed in the same way you design and apartment building, and that means you have to do a lot of renovation. For example, you need to have fifty bathrooms? Fifty small bathrooms floor, where you used to have like to very large bathrooms so, like you, only have bathrooms and

plumbing in one location, and now you need to like distributed throughout the rest of the building to fix. Phrixus developers have to reduce the plumbing and, of course they also have to reckon with Parking, maybe now the municipality says you have to have a certain parking require man, because it's an apartment. Building and like do you have the capacity to put parking garage space in the basement. So now, sadly, you cannot just throw up walls and call it a day. The water street development was a clear reflection of how much labour was required for these conversions, the inside his new building. Everything is brand new, replaced everything and we took it down to the structure. brandon bearing on the inside and look brand new on the outside as well. I mean in a case like is note, I know it's a conversion notes and adaptive reuse, but lake is it

it sounds like it sells. It's a new building, true joey confirmed to me they could reuse the foundation and the concrete floors, and I mean that's pretty big, but most everything else is new. He did add. This project was still cheaper. then a totally new building the amount of cereal, though be required, and time to reconstruct the structure itself of the concrete and steal it's really utilizing those same bones that are good burns reusing knows and just changing, anything else, the developers took me down to a model apartment and I have to say it was really nice. beautiful views just all new amenities, the only indications it was an old office building where the high ceilings and the very big doors we. What, with for the worse, really masses her tall or grand alot of typical residential buildings go with some foot or even

seven, six or maybe the biggest complication when you're doing an office. Two apartment conversion is the floor. Plate architects use the term floor plate to describe the size of the area inside the walls of each story of the building, so you know the size of the floor and there was a time when a residential four plate and one for an office building were basically identical. Used to be the case in a hundred years ago that we build office buildings in america that were shaped very similar to apartment buildings. You know they were they were. we're very narrow. You know many of them were like rectangular in shape, but the time most of these Things were relatively narrow because all light and ventilation came from windows and every office worker needed to be close to one. So these really old office buildings that restrictive bill

these same constraints that residential buildings are built with today. They make for great conversion prospects, because, fundamentally, the shape of them is similar. Proposal were to offices, got some upgrades like air conditioning and fluorescent lighting and suddenly off Workers didn't need to be sitting next to a window of time, so office for plates got a lot bigger. today office buildings tend to have much wider, deeper floor plates than apartments, which means there is a lot of interior space, that's pretty far from a window, and that makes conversions really complicated unless you want a bunch of apartment units with zero access. Do natural light. Many cities, including new york, have a legal. requirement that bedrooms have access to operable windows like do you literally be able to open it and and get fresh air inside this means developed.

Working on office to apartment. Conversions are left with a bunch of empty space. In the middle of these buildings, some developers just put amenities in their like gems or media rooms. so like the game. Room will be located somewhere like that, but I mean you, you don't need like twenty floors of game rooms in the modern apartment building, but that's it fundamentally, at the centre of this conversion, problematic woody, do with interior space is just not a nice place to live at the water street site been barton had a different idea. They would take all that interior space and just

while it off so what you'll see inside is we cut out a series of three voids so their basically blind shafts into the foreplay? A blind shaft? Is this void in the center of the building that's inaccessible to tenants, the voids are actually useful for joey and his company, because zoning limits the square footage for an apartment building, but the voids don't count so they can take them unused where footage and just build new force on top. If we deduct it here, we could then reallocated elsewhere. So he took this and of unusable very much less evil space at the back end of a unit from there and took it and put it up at the top of the burning words, much more valuable. Ok, some builders are willing to put in the effort and do something with his unusable middle space and adapt the building for reuse. I mean come on. What's a few voids between friends, even if a builder makes it this far they're going to find a whole

new set of problems and that's a big old pile of red tape, converting a building from an office to an apartment, because it's a use, change sort of trade. You need to now comply with like a totally different regulatory regime than the one under which the building was felt it built. It goes without saying, but office buildings follow a different set of rules than housing in it. We just have all if these rules that govern the built environment in cities and those those rules and don't envision converting offices into housing, and so you know it. It turns out to be incredibly difficult to convert from one used to another and do it in a legal matter there by laws and rules that keep people alive like fire caught. We like those but new york has a very particular Well, that's preventing conversions in part of the city. Commercial buildings constructed after a certain year are not eligible to be

We converted into housing, here's damned garodnick in new york city for most buildings. That date is nineteen, sixty one. If you were built before nineteen sixty one, And you're in a zone which allows for residential you can convert and if you're not you're out of luck, This rule is known as the cut off here and the cut fear is in place because I mean You know somebody must have had some good reason at some point. When I first read about this, I did not We understand why new york has this rule and, to be honest, I still doubt this is an argument it has given to by someone which I don't find very convincing says not could be very convincing to you either. But we know developers survive bill in things where they're telling us this office building, but they're really planning for it to be a residential buildings in five years and Actually, I'm not sure what the problem with that is. There are new.

Who's in new york, that have exceptions like the financial district, where the conversion deadline is nineteen. Seventy seven instead of nineteen sixty one but in most of the city, convergence are just for really hard joey shall well. He told me these rules make it very, very difficult to even find candidates for conversions, there's a lot of product that was built after seventy seven, and definitely After sixty one That is now in this kind of gray, space alone. Nineteen eighties builds. We only building right across the street, no one's own, if I've water, that other building was built after nineteen, seventy seven, which is the cut off here in this neighborhood, so the conversion didn't happen. The cut off here is this confusing piece of bureaucracy, but in august the city announced a plan to change this rule to move up the cut off here in a hopes it would sperm

inversions, especially in midtown manhattan, while new york developers or waiting for changes to the cut off years rule. There are other rules about apartments that no one wants to do away with. In fact, most of the red tie around. Apartments comes from the era of dangerous tenement buildings in the nineteenth century, in big cities like new york, new immigrants would move into unsanitary apartments, without access to sunlight and fresh air and toilets new laws were added. In the early twentieth century to protect poor renters. Again we like these regulations in many ways, new york is a special case, like other cities. Just do not have this weird cut off your thing, but every city has its own set of issues and its own set of onerous rules when it comes to converting offices into

apartments in many communities in california, the seismic requirements that you are expected to meet for an apartment building are different and more stringent than they are for an office in. So if you, tears successfully. Converted building, you literally have to reinforce that the entire structure of the building to make it more. structurally sound in the event of an earthquake- or you know in in places in the south, where there is a lot of concerns about hurricanes? Now you need to comply with the wood. Load ratings that we expect of buildings in twenty twenty three, not in nineteen sixty one that building was built, and now you have tat, you know completely redo the glades. And everything on the building, like that's, adding an enormous amount of expense. I noticed something else about office conversions walking around the water street construction site. It was well joey, was excitedly telling me about all of us.

manatees. He was planning for this. Building can have a two lane bowling alley sports book room where they giant twelve foot by aid for tv, and it will have a very extensive jim what technology equipment have thus far I cole plunge and treatment rooms. The amenities sounded great, but the more I heard about them, the more it sounded like this apartment building might be a little out of my price range. I wonder when this is open. What what's it going to rent for like what is the one of the units gonna be so anywhere it really ranges, I'd say anywhere from maybe thirty. Five hundred to that an honest studio to four five hundred to fifty five hundred for up to six hours. on one bad

and then to bed anywhere from cod, sixty five hundred seven thousand on up with all of the expense of making a conversion like this? The units are going to be available at the market rate, which in new york, is quite expensive in manhattan. Right now, the average apartment is over forty five hundred dollars. I'm sure there's going to be a lot of competition to live here right now. New york is dealing with many people who can ford it. Here's stand garodnick, certainly at the lower end of the spectrum. You know our vacancy rate for the lowest rent units of. There are fifteen hundred dollars a month is less than one percent. We have a real supply problem overall, where fifty percent of new yorkers are rent burdened, which means they pay more than

third of their income on rent. I guess like a lot of people. I was hoping all this talk of office: conversions, helping to fight the housing crisis, men fighting the affordable housing crisis. Actually Eric Adams talked about afford housing during his press conference. We go to remain the greatest city in the world by building housing and affordable housing, and we must remain a place with everyday people can find housing one, journalists in the room challenged mayor items about his use of the word. You know we're talking about affordable housing crisis, a three thousand dollar help, whatever no mortal housing raises. Some you can't even afford to pay, went down dollars. Whoop. What we have in this city is a housing crisis, a housing crisis, and goal is to build low income, middle income a market. So is

a one size fits all. There is an argument that every new unit of housing is important and adding any new supply to the housing market is in and of itself a good thing. Joe, he told me developers would include affordable units if there were incentives or tax breaks from the government. Some politicians have pushed for mandates that all office conversions need, affordable units, but so far that idea hasn't gain much traction. Coming into this story, I used to pass empty office towers and think what a waste this is just sitting here empty. When I talked to advocates for conversion projects, they had, admit. This whole thing is probably going to be a fairly niece industry, including Dan Veronica from the city of new york. It's not going to radically remake our communities. These will be one off opportunity

here and there throughout the city, but ultimately he still optimistic. Fundamentally, it is a good policy change which meets them meant, and that's why we're so excited about it office to apartment. Conversions are an imperfect solution to this unwieldy problem, but that doesn't mean their bad or that we shouldn't do them I spent a lot of time reporting on this topic, and people would often ask me like so: where do you come down at the end of the day? Do you come down? Unlike you know, debunk This is an idea, or do you come down on sort of saying this is like this is the the panacea the solution to everything and- and I just really feel like it's it neither of those things. It's it's something that

should pursue because it makes sense for a lot of reasons. It's not gonna happen at the scale people would like it to, but that doesn't mean it's not worth pursuing. Cities can encourage more convergence with things like tax breaks and news, zoning rules and governments just spending public money to make these conversions happen, but they're not going to happen on their own buildings change bats, inevitable, but how buildings change? That's up to us The story of new york's last great conversion boom after this. squares bases? The online platform for building your branding grown your business online stand out with website, engage with your audience and sell anything. Your products content you create, and even your tongue

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Hey it's seen as Jay, and if you know me, you know it's all happening from vanderpump rules in my part and arrogance, to my full time: job being summers, mommy, there's always something keeping me busy and that's why I love factor basin fresh, never frozen meals right to my doorstep, their packed with flavoured dietician approved an make it easy to stay on track. With my goals, delicious and ready to eat- and literally two minutes, I mean seriously visit factor, meals, dot, com, slash, shade, fifty four, fifty percent off your first order, so we're broke, Chris broom headdress airmen, I'm so there's one thing we didn't get to industry that I want to talk about now. So I know I just talked about all the reasons why conversions are happening all that often right now, but only twenty years ago there was actually this kind of many boob lit in office to apartment. Conversions in cities across amerika will tell us

but that so back in the late nineties, early two thousands, a few american cities had these booms in office to residential conversions. We've actually talked about one of them on the show. Do you remember the fucking episode with Henryk or bar during that episode? We talked about how, in los angeles, they loosened the parking requirements. If you wanted to do a conversion of an old office building into apartments and all these developers took advantage and they put up, he laughs and it helps kind of revitalize alleys downtown a little bit and actually something similar happened in new york in the nineteen ids provide not know that I mean we knew the allay story, but tell me about new york so these lore manhattan was very commercial lots of white collar workers and they started leaving for other parts of the city and the city was like. Ok will we have to do something with these empty offices, so they began to think of ways that they could in

enter via the market to transform or adaptively reuse the older office buildings? That's carol willis she's, the director of the new york skyscraper museum, and she was nice enough to walk me through an exhibit. They had back in the spring about lower manhattan in the nineties and carol says a lot of these conversions were happening back then, because there was this big shift happening in the financial sector, so there were consolidations and all these banks were moving uptown These new or office buildings and created this crisis in lower manhattan, so downtown really was affected by a real estate recession that caused the value of buildings to go down the vacancy to be very high. Thirty center more and of empty office spaces. Well, ok, coming that three percent is bigger than the office polyps that people talking about today there were talking about the office polyps in its true

two percent right back- then it was- you know it was fifty percent worse. So, in response to the city brought in these tax breaks and these incentives- and it led to quite a few older office towers being converted into housing, including some actually kind of I on a new york buildings. One is the famous woolworth building that a nineteen thirteen was the world's tallest building and is particularly interesting because the today, the lower section of about twenty eight or twenty nine floors remains an office building and the tower which is? we're slender than than the base has been converted to apart and so their condominium apartments. Now that is a beautiful building. Cass gilbert, oh yeah, just a totally iconic new york, the whole thing incredible. Now, of course, you know: there's some darkness here like we're talking about the turn of the millennium and nine eleven slowed down a lot of this progress, but the city recovered and in the end it's remarkable like how.

people ended up settling in that neighbourhood. There is quite a range of housing that became available through this approach of adaptive, reuse and that housing stock, which added some twenty thousand or so units. above average, of two people per unit in and about forty thousand new residents to lower manhattan. Really what began to change the sense of a residential, ever heard or in that downtown was a place that people live whether they were young, single or maybe starter families, so forty thousand new residents in this area of lower manhattan, largely because of these office to housing, conversions, you know it made. It feel like a completely different neighbourhood as a result and with all the different restrictions we talked about in the episode. You know that kind of boom is pretty unlikely today,

exactly for all the reasons we talked about during story and also a lot of those nineties. Why to kay conversions, they were kind of the couldn't quote Lee, hanging fruit buildings. They were the older office buildings with smaller floor plates that were more easily converted and today, it's harder to come by buildings like that. So even if we had like incentives and tax breaks and all these other things, I'm not sure it would encourage, like a massive conversion of the newer office towers with the bigger air conditioner floor plates right right. That makes sense. Okay. So I have another question that we didn't get to in the story. If those abandoned office buildings aren't going to become housing, are there any possible other uses for them? So they just don't sit empty yeah, that's a really good question, and actually, while I was making this story, andrew race wrote this article that came out of new york magazine about the new york real estate market and the office parker lips, and all that and one of the scenes in the article is this panel discussion where people are talking about. You know alternate uses,

these old office buildings and their thrown out a few suggestions, and one of them is a medical centres. That kind of feels like a different type of office. Moving into the old office towers vertical farms. You know urban farms moving in schools. I think the wildest suggestion I saw was somebody was suggesting pet care should move into the old office building smith the lot more pets I see at least until they need care. That makes some sense, although I still think that the the problem still stands that you would need, you know like access to light and air the same way you would for apartments rain yeah. I think all of these involve some pretty significant, expensive interventions, but I do know we're at this inflection point where there's a lot of empty office space and there aren't alot of tenets who are coming back. So I now we have to figure out something, and we have figured something pretty quickly:

yeah, and if my household is an indication, people are willing to spend a lot on their dogs. So maybe that's the attic remedy, By an office, however, for your dog, what you think I think really It's a whole office, the roma, around yeah, she's he dog she could totally useless basic space totally use. This is alright right. Thank you. Curse ovation thanks, roman and one note the exhibition, residential rising. It has closed at the new york skyscraper museum, but they have lots of resources on their website. We will linked to that at ninety nine p. I org. I love a good building museum. So of spam. Past The nine percent invisible was produced this week by crisper, ruby edited by kelly prime some. expert, martine gonzalez, music, by swan real fact checking by grandpapa Kathy too is our executive producer Delaney

is our senior editor cost it is. The dismal director throws. A team includes Emmett Fitzgerald Chris Virgil. Vivian lay jason de Leon, lush modern jacob not a medina giaours number and me roman mars. Bizarre less last episode with intern anarchist narrow. It was so great tat the ninety. I am sorry The logo was created by stephan lawrence special thanks this week to David garcia, in presenting visible as part of this nature and serious example, gas family now headquartered six blocks north in pandora, building in beautiful uptown, oakland, California, you mean links to others. Teacher shows I love as well as every past episode of ninety nine pr and ninety nine p r dot org.