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versus Warren LAD versus Tromp. Welcome to this special, whose lying edition of the editors, Rich Lowry and I'm joined is always by the right. Honourable Charles See, Debbie Cook by Jim at least we ve never blown a twenty four thing, lead and play off game clarity and is a true Jim. I get effect check. I didn't know it all before before saying you never know ever get Nothing leads anyway, a ride and the notorious Bt Michael Brendan Dorothy. You say to a national view: podcast our sponsors this week are quip and the dividend CAFE podcast more about them in due course, felicitous, Podcast NASH View dot com. Would like

have you better be easier if you better for us, if you listen to us on any of the streaming services out there from Spotify to Itunes, if you like what we hear here, please consider giving us a glowing five star review on Itunes. If you don't like what you hear here, please forget, I said anything so Jim we had a incredibly boring and see lay interminable democratic debate of the other night two hours with six candidates on stage or five and Tom style. And really the whole thing could have been reduced to the prefix between worn and sanders with closure gettin in there about whether he had said when they met two years ago, that a woman can be elected president and then followed up by it. Like the greatest thing ever this this

MIKE moment that they didn't realize was hot MIKE. I don't how many views the video now has of this, but I count price like a hundred. Fifty of them just just like south off I'd, say get it so hilarious. You never see political candidates talk that way to each other. You just lied about me on national tv. No, you just lied about me, and then perhaps my favorite part and Jim you're. The mocking the sun on Twitter yesterday was the Tom's TIGERS standing neck health either this incredibly explode, of exchange happen to these two, like real candidate states, like Mr Santer, please It is one say, hello, Mr Centres, ethical yogurt, but anyway, when you make of it, you have been the first. I gotta begin with an apology to listeners. They don't pick up on this. But you know we try to start at a certain time. I'm In Dc Charlie DC area, Charlie's Florida, you guys are up in New York. Everything sat everything's connected we're all ready to go

slow down. I couldn't start when I wanna took as Tom's tire popped into say: hi, ok, fine! Thank you, Thomas Great yeah. You know four regarding the debate. I am not a fan of these debates. I'm not complain, I mean to say rich various readers have said. Oh my god, you deserve a raise for watching these things so that we don't have to. You deserve a bone I'm not saying I need I'm just saying people are saying the sort of thing, because it does not fit all this very little debating going on. It was really bad when you had ten to twelve candidates up on that stage, you'd think there be a little bit of improvement. Now that we're just down to six but wonders enormous policy, differences amongst a bunch of Democrats and the other three even if there are nobody at this stage of the game, wants to say anything that might offend or or bother or or that you're a democratic Brooklyn ILO Caucus Gore, might want to hear so

Even if they have disagreements, they don't mean they don't like nasty. I was clear that warrant and Sanders YO. Neither one of em really wanted to get into the weeds and that during the debate Warren Preface by Saint Bernice, my friend I do I didn't come here to fight with Bernie. I shall, of course you just happened to leak, something three weeks have looked very badly two days before the proper, but you don't want to fight. You know. I think this is no reflecting the fact that is as much as she's not terribly behind the others. Now. Most of the pulling Elizabeth worn is in fourth place, an island fourth place in New Hampshire. It's a respectable fourth place than I was like fifteen to seventeen percent. She's, probably gonna get delegates, but does the outdo fourth place finishes in people pretty much be riding up the obituary, of dealers before and campaign. So she needed to do something and she's, probably not with that many voters over from bite and she's, probably not gonna, win that many voted Andrews. Voters are the most natural base their, so she dropped

they make you know that makes sanders, look bad and makes them look sexist. Ah he says he didn't say at his prey he says he didn't say at your vehement in his deny, on stage during the debate. The CNN moderator Abbe, Philip, just ignores it like the rake fallen western outrageous senator Senator Warrant is Senator Sanders lying right now right, that's that's a question that really put. Would it put everybody on the spot and she didn't. She said you senator warrant. How did you feel when Santer said this just totally some images is just beyond the fact that shouldn't react Sanders denial. What kind of question is? How did you feel right for any present candidate about anything. I just wonder whether she without befell observed nerves. You know this is at the high profile thing in this kind of her script and she stuck with it despite what Bernie said, but the Bernie brows have real legitimate cause for complaint

that how that was here here is one step away from Barber Walter's. If you were twice what kind of tea would you be it up? How do you feel but the the other drama within this year after after dinner, the plot will, after the debate ended, we're clear they warrant is convinced. He said it and that she's lie either. Barneys centres is now lying when he denies it. He could He feels he didn't say it and that she's you'll make something up. He didn't want to do that right then, and there, but clearly he feels he's been unfairly issues. I think it'll be really fascinating if in the next cap four days or weeks. You see some more open sniping between these two people who insist that long time, friends and allies, or at least we would reach your farm. They weren't obligated to stay quiet. All day during recent impeachment works so charge you, are a adept reader of evidence and public controversies of this nature should, I believe, while

Certainly, don't agree with the idea that has been put forward by some prominent commentators that we should believe Elizabeth worn by default, because She is a woman and that this is in some way connected to the meat to movement. The Julia off his argument. If it is the case that we are obliged to believe Elizabeth warrant at all times, because she's a woman, then she can't be president. We can't have a president whom are obliged to

believe. Instead, we should treat Elizabeth worn every other women and, in fact, everyone running for public office in the same way, which is to say that we should evaluate that claims on the evidence and feel no compunction whatsoever about saying that their claims that add up when they don't this one is difficult, of course, because it is a claim about a private conversation, and nobody has suggested that that conversation was recorded or that there was any one else who is party to it. I think Elizabeth Warren has her work cut out here, because, given the lack of evidence, one tends to get a character. Her her reputation proceeds her if this were say a claim about Bernie Sanders, saying something incendiary about the Soviet Union. You might look at him and said I could see him saying that, but it's not.

God what is is a claim that helps Warren or is supposed to help worn by. Playing into abroad and narrative and a narrative that helps her campaign, and that gives her campaign, meaning We have seen over and over again have that Elizabeth Warren has either flat out fabricated evidence or has twisted massage the truth in a way that allows her to paint herself as a trailblazer. This is what she did with the native american claim. She wanted to turn herself into a minority and gain the benefits that flow from that it's what she did with the claim about being fired. She wanted to make herself like a are a radical somebody who had been wrong in the past and whose very

Election and candidacy would help to undo that wrong. I find it hard to believe that she hasn't embellish this, given what we know about, Bernie Sanders and given what we know about Elizabeth warn, of course we will never know and because we will never know. It strikes me that this was a blunder on warrants part. Of course, Bernie Sanders was going to say that it didn't happen. If it didn't happen, he was going to deny it because he was innocent. If he was a sort of person who would say this, he was going to deny it because he's a sort of person who would say that

There was no wind here for Elizabeth worn. What she has done is drag herself down into a fight that can't be one and in which neither set of supporters is likely to move. I don't see how that help. Sir ass for the rest of us, I think we can look at it ass. We should much of the rest of the democratic primary at this stage and role our eyes. I think I wanna play the hit the Bernie Bro for this podcast four minute here. The ending confrontation. After the debate, I think, was just a staged and planned. As

the leaked to the press and the stupid speech she gave about how women win. I think it was also having the moment was aimed at both burning and Joe Biden, and he was indeed Joe Biden in the sense that I think there's no good evidence to believe his lot of weak support for Biden as a safe candidate, and she needs to overcome that argument that ah, he is necessarily a safer, more electable candidates. I think she wanted to make that argument and from his supporters. I also think she was just trying to change the narrative right. The narrative is that the worn is peaked, she's losing air and she needs to preserve. The past the New York Times endorsing her, which I'm sure they're going to do so. I thought this was staged. I think seen him a shameful in how they moderated it. I think they are shameful in waiting.

A whole new cycle to unveil thee in of the hot MIKE Audio Elizabeth Morn is a fake. She should be presumed to be lying. She is this is a woman who plagiarized a french recipe. For her contribution to Powwow chow when she was dying or hear jet black pretending to be a native American that the idea that she should get up and coal burning a man whose, like helplessly himself, helplessly sincere, a liar? I mean it. I thought it was so treacherous, I'm sure will be effective, though, and she's made herself a story. You really think it will be effective. I think it'll be effective, intriguing in getting the New York Times to endorse her and getting Madam, I mean remember. Hillary Clinton, pivoted off of help

victim building Ives, endorsing the victim thing matters and the primary that matter in the premiums in the primary matters. The victim thing helps me: Harry Clinton could been dead after Iowa in two thousand eat. But then there is this viral moment of iron. My english crying about a sketch cried lots of LOS. Yes, oh cried! She let us know whether there is the iron my shirt thing. We're like two people heckled her an amendment in a massage way I'm sure they were bombed off like Jeffrey Epstein and an anyway Form Brown I'm sorry, but this everything about her is fake and she's going to get the endorsement of fake progressives at the New York Times. Home populism is for millionaire. You know doc there's and lawyers who want to be out of school debt faster. Her bank reform helped kill small banks, everything about her is

me and we should be ashamed that we live in a country that even tolerates a media that please with her like this, I mean it's, I think is just gross. I was I mean I was offended by it in a serious way. I was hoping she would just go away quietly and die in her candidacy die but been sending like snakes to anywhere. Tell us before it is out of the burning browser. Doing I sought an egg Mccain complaining about that. I know I mean I. I thought it was whose treacherous and dumb said Jim we autumn can't know obviously just the two of them in the room and it's entirely possible that they're they're both telling the truth is a remembered it or as they received it at the time. As heard truth, Bernie set. Bernie said: why did we? Family law was family, Lord, that she heard Bernie Sanders was lying about her in a bird

Bernie said, you know what he said basically admitted. They said in other, be used against her and ended. She she over interpreted in this way and Amelia, goes out and tell people that it faced supposedly said this terrible thing, but I not are not up for anybody on this one Jim, but I'm pretty close to envy. I really think she is making it up. I don't think it is the kind of thing that Bernie would say give that you wanted her IRAN and twenty sixteen given the you'd Youtube videos resurface two years ago when you saying a woman could be elected president, and I just like Michael, I think certainly compared Elizabeth worn Bernie as a trustworthy figure. I think he he'd have he. I don't lies about his programme at east and surly believe If all these things a magical things about its program, if you told me to go out there and lie about it, I think you'd have really.

Our time doing it made him now you that have thank you, have a really are timely, so much harder time than the average politician, whereas, if our progressive, I look Elizabeth worn and just the Medicare for all thing alone, put put aside the native american stuff and end the theme dishonest answer about her. In private schools, while the other thing about being fired, they had, they all run, run together now offering regular premature, but just just the d, a slippery way she's handled Medicare for all would make me suspicious of her yeah me. This is a little too perfect and, from a guy, who's been been opened, open and fairly outspoken, feminist back to and he ran back in Vermont? He had one or two female opponents that he made some comment. That were you know, maybe border line, but the idea that you know Bernie Sanders behind closed doors. Like enough, let me tell you

there's no way America's upper electing a check as president. Ok, then a little they just don't trust ovaries and the old. That's not who because he's not Andrew Dice Clay right. This is not yet. Oh, it just doesn't fit anything else about up what now Could he waited? What is much more plausible is, like a you know, were trampled go after any woman or trouble. You know it and maybe, but maybe you walk away from twenty. Sixteen concluding there was sexism and the electorate and that this hurt Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton said this: this is some sort of a lunatic conspiracy theory. You know viewpoint of the of the american electorate and the eye, this also there's. If, if this really bothered Elizabeth Ward, then right after that meeting and twenty eighteen, you could come on said Bernie, you know for being a long time friend, he said, thing really bothered me and it really does not strike me as correct. I think he underestimate what a woman could do again. She could have, but this just happens to come out today,

before the final demand for the ILO Caucasus ought really convenient right, so get it there. I don't think she's earned any benefit of the doubt from the sale of the broader theme of the entire primary. So far from it in you, you asked the worm come from I don't think most Democrats now leave your relatives. The media favoured Democrats and always the media generally have kid gloves. Democrats them alive. People in media want to believe in Democrats, and so far this primary is just one prominent, democratic, rising, star figure, crashing and burning after another beta, overwork Corey Booker Kirsten Gillette, Bran Houlihan Castro All of these folks have had a one point another this. This is the next great democratic, rising star. There ve been enough those pieces written about Elizabeth Warren too, and the thing is now, if you she's, not a great rising star, educating our colleague John Mccormick keeps emphasising she's bragging about how she beat Scott Brown in Massachusetts. Nobody said it

begun, its Massachusetts. What Obama's on top of the ticket know by the way she read well, behind Obama, thousands and then she's act like winning reelection. Twenty a teen is a big deal. You know that there are is low bar that is used to have to build up these candidates, and I think you know Actually, the rubber meets the road, and you end up with this kind of awkward ham, hand did ya clumsy, transparent efforts, I think that might be one of was rented. The genuineness of Bernie Sanders the sense that he can't even try to be Nothing other than what he does by the way, perhaps or other trump like attribute. Yes, that's a big part, it listen. Airily speak, I mean Bernie always speaks in Bernie ease right. He is always speaking in the same kind of petrol in which you can trace, probably too, to a specific block in me:

work City, those with one changes, her vocabulary and timber and delivery almost with every answer. Suddenly he's talking about, as a key point had homer, appoint. I'm gonna have me a beer lake. I then is, and then she switches into I'm the professional are climbing long. She hurried this just like playing on the face of day. I feel like I'm going crazy, that anyone thinks there is any doubt about who has credibility here and who doesn't rich implied. This, I think, is absolutely right. One of the big differences between them is that Bernie showed up in a party to which he doesn't even belong and said. This is how I think it should be. And give or take a couple of peripheral issues proceeded to continue in the same vein as he had throughout his entire career is the same,

and he was ten years ago. Twenty years ago, thirty years ago, Bernie is trying to remake the Democratic Party in his image and he's had some success in doing that, Elizabeth Warren is trying to conform to the Democratic Party into a democratic party that has been changed by Bernie Saunders she has to pretend to believe things. She doesn't. She has to effectively apologise for being a Republican she has to learn this language, which is not native to her and in the course of doing so, she's trying to put herself on the pyramid of grievances. So she has a greater incentive to make things up to bend the truth then Bernie Sanders,

That doesn't mean that she is lying here, but it does mean that the circumstantial evidence, especially when combined with the fact that she has a history of being slippery and also history of dressing up for Halloween, means that Bernie probably is more likely to be reflexively, believed and should be Jim was persuaded out and talk about the the debate in general. I was because I take Bernie scientists dispute. I was surprised and kind of displeased by some of the earth.

The point I focus groups had worn one. Five. Thirty eight point said she did the most to help yourself. Other five. Thirty eight point is kind of they now analyzes stuff down a microscopic level. We're talking decimal points, you know, but I thought just watching it. I thought Bernie had a strong night used, emphatic and lively, and I thought Biden with strong in probably not on a totally objective scale, but by the scale of as good as last debate. Which was as his best and he wants a steady state race release much more than than any other Canada Stu. I think one of the lessons of the cycle is that court, on quote a good night, doesn't really matter

Nevertheless, there are a number of times the past six months. We ve chatted about these debates at you know who I am gastro had a good night or Corey Booker boy. He really had a good, not Amy Club, which are nerve and got anywhere. None of the numbers moved, I think, there's one key measuring take. That comes out of the most of these debate, occasionally of a moment of of drama. Like you know, tools he gathered for laying come all Harris like a fish, but by large. It comes down to it. I did Biden have a bad night, most of these nights he's not having a bad anything. Thursday was a bad night. So I think that the interesting thing is it right and as of going heading into the debate and still so far, those top the big for candidates, Biden, Sanders, worn and good adjudge brutish is that did there all pretty comfortables where they or maybe warrants a little bit worried, but about their all walking away from Iowa with with delegates so nobody's in a mood to take any big. Nobody wanted to go on the attack and have some sort of

viral moment that goes badly, not least to Some are probably wrong. At least two of them are going to look back at the I shouldn't should have done something more azure should try to make a bigger swash, but right now those forward Duenna, Amy Clover, char. Who is probably in that. You know that that reasonable fifth place needs to double her support basically to get any delegates and she was not come out swinging like crazy. Then you, Tom style, was just to be along for the ride and say I'd everybody. If there's been a candidate who is made for a reasonable fifth place, I hate to say it's probably Amy enclosure. But what would you think of the debate generally? I was missing injury hang one. I mean it felt like as the the no hope burs like, Inter Yang tools, he gathered and Marion Williamson laughed. They become less interesting, but you know the difference.

Have narrowed, I thought be Buddha, judge was boring and I felt like he doesn't seem to sparkle up very feels more Camden, rehearsed, Anna and especially struck me in the beginning. Pushes the debate talking about foreign policy as an old answers with great I mean everything he says, is perfectly practised in polish down at a syllable, but really that the set the mayor, South Band city care faking grant pronouncements and how should conduct matters like warm piece of the country and the other thing I mean. Do The other thing is to work for those of us who watched more than one of these debates like do like another half hour, another around on medical care or Medicare for all medical care for all who want it. I mean there's nothing to be gained at this point from some probing them on this, so that that's interminable, I think,

Their old does not say one of them went when who knows all the candidates, all the candidates? I think now adults, I I will distinguish seven suggesting that terms to win a second time. He may he may not. One of them may prevail, but if I were Democrat, I'd be disappointed, the loss to democratic president's have been charismatic, we ve had something about them. Barack Obama. Bill Clinton. Ronald Reagan was obviously a charismatic. The people who are hoping that if the Democrat wins we will see more than merely a replacement of a peculiar, an unpopular president. I think we'll be disappointed, I don't see any of those people ass.

Go to a share in the sort of progressive change that they want to see. What do you make of burnings argument? I actually am basically in agreement with this before even said it, but Bernie made an argument that you need enthusiasm and grass roots kind of fervour to win, I actually think that stressing that was true, Trump Anno Bomber and until that model is overturned. I think I think, there's something to the argument that you start with a rabid, the annual fur bio base and then build out from their through partisan energy. While that I should say that there are differences, there are different reasons for why I think barrel likely to be duds, even if,

become president. The problem it Joe Biden is that he is old and doesn't have any ideas and speaks extremely poorly and looks like a caretaker and these one temperamental the problem. Elizabeth Warren is that she's extremely unlike about and then to get him ass now telling me that that's because she's, a woman- that's not true, she is on likeable. I think she would have very little chance of convincing the public to go along with sweeping change, and I think if she tried to do it via the executive branch alone,

it remarkable backlash in the way that President Obama did. I think that people do justice to green and I think his instincts would be toward the center. I don't think he's going to go for bat. Should he become president for medical care for all or cancelling all student lunch, and then you have Bernie. Bernie is different, as you say, Michael maybe Bernie could win because he begins up in. Student lights, and then you have Bernie. Bernie is different, as you say, Michael maybe Bernie could win because he begins up enough enthusiasm in the Democratic Party and in the base is possible, but again to borrow from Luke Thompson's dichotomy. Bernie Who is that he would be in the vanguard of a revolution that he would change public opinion that people would look at America and say we need to alter it fundamentally,

Bernie, is our guy. That's not going to happen if Bernie becomes president of the United States, the response from especially middle class voters is going to be extreme Bernie Remember- is off the charts when it comes to his ambitions. He wants to spend more money than any president would have ever presided over spending american history by a factor of at least he wants to spend more money than was spent in the new deal. The reaction would be swift. I

can see them winning. I don't know who I can see Trump losing. I can't see any of these people being the sort of president who shifts the centre of gravity or who institutes change that lasts. So Jim are not quite there yet, but firm Michael's point. I see myself talking talking my self into the idea that Bernie is the strongest potentially a general election of the four. Certainly in the abstract, the point about the grass root and enthusiasm in a movement and a certain kind of Christmas Bernice, it is obviously very idiosyncratic being really important. That's all really true. Just obviously the problem is burning, carries so much baggage with socialist label, with things he's done in the past and that then, just with the complete outlandishness,

of the programme, but are stuck in some other, the White House. Just the other day I was asking who, who do you think the toughest isn't, maybe Biden, maybe Bernie, I don't see it as a bad, difficult choice. Zoning Biden is significantly tougher than Bernie out back in two thousand and eight when Barack Obama was marching the presidency. There was a moment where Colin Powell surprised everyone by endorsing Barack Obama. Now George W Bush, as secretary of state, At the same time, Marquess Molitor us over a daily coasts was endorsing Barack Obama. Remember saying one of these two guys is gonna end up disappointed because Colin Powell markets more leads us, don't actually want to much of the same things. Do you believe that was the secret of Barack Obama? They could be this blank slate rarely, but it kind of project their ideals onto an you're? Probably right, there's nobody in this field. Who can really do that and you probably argue,

Clinton. Sorted did this in nice. Ninety two, as well with the closure of rivalry and rubbed him pride closest rebooted, address because the thing that night I do you get elected in two thousand and abominable and away they weren't hated. Yet they they got Katy like really quickly. But that is why that's why boot adjudge won't be the bringer of radical change, cause he's not going to unless something cataclysmic happens. We do now have ever he's not going to come in on the back of a terrible economy. Sixty Senate seats, a super majority in the house is not going to happen, which means he's going to end up where a bomber ended up on a majority of questions being lambasted by the markets. Miletus of this work for being too potter it, I dont think any the progressive grass roots look at people read it over. Only a small percentage. Look at him and say: oh yeah he's one of us part of its because every single one of his debate performance is as good as they are sound, like a Mckinsey, consulting presentation that that there's no video it little to polish dollar.

Two select this the other. This is not a guy who, in our ears, like it's straight from the heart, unfiltered sidling anybody has that. I think the others also like you would get we on the right. Look at these guys and see all of their flaws. The average Democrat doesn't want to see their flaws They want to believe nobody's going after Bernie on his nutty writings, for those alternate newspaper as about women and rape, fantasies and stuff doll. Trumps could go right there behind doll, trumps gonna go right to everything, Ronnie Socialist, the crowd in Nicaragua, saying death to America or wheels Channing, some sort of anti American chanted Bernie Sanders, YO being fine with it. All desire, a friend's, although maybe that maybe Michael likes, that all of the stuff that did of that Bernie Sanders has done over the years. That makes him a genuine radical right gal trumpet gonna. Take this and lick put and put all about him till it sticks

and you know- and this is all by the way the guy's admit your nearly eighty years old at Heart- attack right this- that this is a target. Rich environment now is bite and we know the button have weaknesses. Sure absolutely, but I think I did but Bernie Sanders really doesn't get elected and doesn't get people to sign on. Yes, we need a social revolution as long as unemployment is below four percent. If we were at the peak of the good. Really great recession. Two thousand eight! Maybe you get somebody like Bernie Sanders. Somebody saying you have is totally hasn't worked. We need radical change. We need big sweeping changes. This is not a great environment for Bernie Sanders. That's even separate from his Corky personnel does off excellent points. Jim well taken. Let's go ex question to you. Amby DE who benefits from the Bernie Warren Conflict, choose one Bernie, worn Biden, Buddha Judge and worrying

wine benefits, because I honestly think we're only not over forty hours into this by now, but I think she is given a reason for the media to do. They think the media's inclined to do which is trying to drag her to the top, and I think we are not ready for the amount of energy that is gonna be poured into this now that it's basically a afoot race of north, a three or four way for race, China CUP. I have the same logic as Michael, but with a different conclusion. I think it helps Bernie because the media is going to try to drag Elizabeth we're onto the top. I think what happened during the debate was appalling. The moderation and I think the reaction in the press has been,

appalling, and I think that Bernie we'll be able to cost himself, as somebody who is not only an outside average is being unfairly treated, and I think this in the same way, albeit on a much smaller scale, as did the cabin our fight is going to galvanise those who are partial to burning to bury malarkey, it helps Biden, it makes him look worse, makes her look worse. This is how you saw the same thing, going Gebhardt in the closing moments of the closing days of the ILO caucuses. Anybody who is wavering for either one of em. I just go to save choice and it helps good old, Joe Jim at this is the conventional analysis by think its correct. They warn the inner work for her that night. She had but a moment from it, but she needs you know her path

compensation is collapsing down Bernie and winning his people and they're gonna be some saying where those people that aren't gonna forgive her. I don't think there's really much upside to Bernie, to be being heavens accusation or hurled Adam, which some people in the media and commentators say they believe with him and just the usual, where works is to Canada's going after each other in a multi candidate rates benefits some one else I think, especially enjoyable though it was as a upon it and if a viewer, the hot my moment afterwards, it's just to two people calling each other liars. It's not gonna help either them. So I agree with Jim Biden- maybe maybe Buddha Judge, but certainly not Warren or sand, or so that, let's hear from our first posture this week, quip the revolutionary toothbrush quip makers of the quick electric toothbrush want you to know the one single does

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So every day, history! Yesterday, where there is a house vote there was a house vote to transmit the articles of impeachment to the Senate Nancy, sign them about fifty pen, so everyone would get their souvenir of the sorrowful and prayer for mom and then the measures did did the walk crossed capital assented. Actually receive them life for some scheduling reason, but is receiving them as as we speak, and then a trial starts on Tuesday. What to make of it impeachment battled for Since I remember the nineties episode of each one mean: when did that start wended? When did the housing peach Donald Trump, I meant

I feel this is old news. I mean it's just the weird delay over the holiday and then the refusal to transmit the articles. I think it it further took whenever the sails and people are already focusing on twenty twenty. I know there is a hard core audience for impeachment right. The people that retweet James call Me- and you know the people who suddenly wrote these articles praising Michael Cohen at one

wine is like some brave truth. Teller and you know I'd try to take selfies with Anthony Scare mood. She now that he's turned on the president. I mean there is some audience for this, but it's not a significant one. It's not a majority one, it's not one! That is going to convince five republican senators to vote for our conviction or removal, and so in second and get them to two third, so I dont know what impeachment means anymore mean beyond selling the pens or for awarding them to faithful donors. So I can something: that's critics of the present think is breathing life into the hole. For it and shows the strategic genius of Nancy Policy and holding the article. So long is one. These love, poorness documents that were released sandwich, pretty jawdropping

And or disturbing, and then he had an interview with Rachel Matter last night that I must confess confess a phone down on my hosting duties here I have not. I did not watch it last night. I just picked up bits and pieces of it prior to this podcast this morning, but you jolted about it today. What do you think the consequence of the harness documents and interview will be right. The first think probably good way to summarize it all riches that is I to say that for about a year now, every time use Rudy Giuliani, either trending on twitter or name in a headline. Your first instinct is God what did he do now and that kind of what the european We can argue that more than any other figure in the world, Giuliani is responsible for the ongoing impeachment process. So these decay

now familiar, because I can't paid close attention to what I gonna yeah. Rudy is involved with a bunch of shady characters. None of this looked good about. You know how big a pebble deal. Could it be? Well, it could be pretty darn big left, yes and eager for women were to arise from it from an hour or two guys who were working, free, Giuliani and who are apparently part of his go betweens and and involved in this effort to get the ukrainian government to look into the bite. If you take a look at these guys in their backgrounds, ISIS vibrant that his job, they look like most office henchmen since Jeff gloomily and Sean Eckhardt, when after Nancy Kerrigan, Michael bread adored is correct. This is ninety swash back. You wouldn't trust these guys to pick up a lunch order. Go out and get involved in this subtle, important, delicate, politically explosive secret effort to get the foreign government to investigate a potential president arrival, and

offer backgrounds, and these are two guys who they are born in Ukraine became to the United States. Only they lived in South Florida, the affirm and is an exporter of luxury goods and partners is a former stockbroker, oh by the way lots of unpaid debts. In their past poorness get sued, evicted from several properties work for three brokerage expelled from India. We by regulators you could just smell the. I have deal you coming off of these two, but once more Early for awhile worked in an unspecified capacity for ukrainian Oligarch Dmitritch feet rash through the heck. Is Dimitrios feet rash, is one of Ukraine's wealthiest businessmen battling extradition by? U S, authorities on bribery charges from Vienna, but oh prosecutor, say that for TAT is an upper excellent s. See it of russian organized crime in died in two thousand there, too in a bribing of iranian officials for access to titanium minds. What is Rudy Giuliani, doing hanging out with these guys. What is

Giuliani doing hiring these guys? What is the present doing associating himself with any of these guys. I just We shall look into this thing. How do these guys and getting cleared by the US secret service to meet with the White House? And, yes, they got invited to the yeah Hanukkah collaboration in twenty, a tea in various other ones. The absolute minimum dude, oh by the way, these guys didn't have any special connections in Ukraine. They didn't have a. They weren't movers and shakers they be. Quickly said to we have. We know, there's good stuff and in Ukraine. Trust us put us in charge of getting and Giuliani baseless. Ok, that sounds good and Trump basically signed off on the whole thing it is, Israel is done, as is justified, impeachment might senses the old. Almost everybody in the country has made their minds up about this a long time ago, and this won't want change might it looks bad you're gonna see Trump

border, say what course you can't trust partners he's being indicted on campaign finance violations yeah the question- Ok, this is such a clearly untrustworthy guy. Why are rodya drop? Trusting him yet Michael Cohen, paradox all over again and that these guys their malicious clown an Rudy Associated with them made made them part of his operation. He never she trusted them and president I stay. I never should have trusted him it, sir. It is really that simple, Charlie, what what he makes

instead, what whenever I hear people say maybe this or that demonstrates Nancy Policies- secret genius in this impeachment Charlie, I hear people saying that Donald Trump is playing treaty chess. I don't think this changes anything and thus once again, not because there is nothing there, but it doesnt tell us anything. We didn't already know the first problem with this story. Is it it highlights? Donald Trump has poor judgment surrounds himself? untrustworthy people. He delegates to those he shouldn't he embroiled himself in scandal. This is a character floor and its habitual, behavior, and it's not ready Julie fault. It's Donald Trumps fault. Donald Trump has done this,

most likely throughout his career. Although I never followed it, certainly, since he got involved in politics, he is the sort of person who trust too easily and delegates to quickly. That is not news there. The Mulder report showed us that the election itself showed us that the second thing this partner story tells us is that the president did not have. Any intention of getting to the root of corruption in Ukraine, which we already knew Trump did what he's been accused of doing. He wanted tat on Joe Biden. He wanted it to be publicly announced that Joe Biden, family

was mired in scandal. This is more com, a nation, but it's no more confirmation than we ve already got so I'm a little confused by the reaction. Exhibited by Rachel, mad cow and, to her view, is by all the people like automaton right, wow wow wow on Twitter, it's difficult if you're some sort of Trump sycophant to watch this Come away believing that the president is a good person that is competent, that he was acting in America's interests

but if you or anyone else, and certainly of your prosecuting and impeachment case- and you dont believe that the ball hasn't been moved at all and if it has been moved a fraction of an inch, it hasn't been moved enough to counter the trouble for the Democratic Party that has been caused by this delay by this fight over the Senate rules and by a general incompetence in messaging. That is marked this whole process from the Democratic party site, so Michael Island dead deeply into the poorest allegations unto down there. The credibility, but I think what most credible just just at first sight is the notion that Trump knew what Julia I was doing. That seems obvious, but the idea pants was the henchmen here tat the girl went and knew what was

The score was and needed to get the the assurance that they investigate the binds and that The attorney general bar was an honour. All that I'm highly sceptical, oh, but I think one when irony here is the same. People say us great that little that Nancy Policy held the articles clue wouldn't known this- also praised it when she shut down the in impeachment incorporated get the impeachment prior to Christmas. When there's now- and I had this matter- that it be good to know today. You know this should be investigated, but they have no impeachment increase of it there and this screwy situation or lay out state Senate, you you investigate this. This new aspect of this and which actually, if you really want to get down at the bottom of it, would take you know another couple months. So they they rush, they put impeachment over their invest,

the geisha in an hour. Turning round and saying Mitch Mcconnell you needed to pick up the baton and be just as interested in pursuing this matter, as as we were when he's just not the question is: do you think the house will pick this up and send another impeachment inquiry going by Easter and we'll get enough another impeachment article sent over to the Senate just as their wrapping up this one? Yet your exactly right on that I mean I I look at this

I just feel, like you said another Michael Cohen, another figure that people want to believes changing the narrative just cause they're saying some ominous things and have you no ominous things to say, but I believe impeachment is fixed by public opinion at this point and very little has changed it, especially the impeachment inquiry has barely moved public opinion. I also think there just like a cautionary tale for for everyone at this about Giuliani in a sense of I now been interested in following politics very closely and around political people, some of them powerful and influential, and if you are paranoid in this environment, you are going to attract almost by like a law of nature, guys like Partus and

women who feel it and great interest I've I've seen this with other powerful people before where you know maybe a little bit apparently is good and keep you in your toes, but just a little too much and suddenly Not only are you surrounded by people feeding it, but then you are participating in conspiracies and wild goose hunts yourself. Arend s great point: surgeon, Gary the question to you percentage odds that John Bull will be a witness the Senate impeachment trials year, two hundred thirty percent, apparently serving all the good stuff for the book, come out so high. But why would we need to hear that before the impeachment, both joy cook, I don't think he's gonna happen. I said twenty percent the highest anybody below ten I'm up. I was we which had a version of this this question last time as brief. Emphatically, no, then, how can we witnessed

stop tended to think that's. The case could well be a mutually assured destruction. Aspect to the witnesses were of Democrats, Sir, with CUP Republicans get Bolton, there's gonna, be Hunter Biden or someone the White House once, but I'm not a certain US, as I was of that last week, I think you'll see. Collins May and the day really want some sort of deal on, this is, and it conceivable that there could be some sort of deal where in the chinese menu. You know the each side gets gets two or three witnesses to pick in a probably. If, if there were such a deal, depose them rather than have them dramatically in the world,

it testifying live, so I'm gonna say forty percent still think the odds are against it, but I think the pressure has built, sir. Before we move on, I wanna talk a little bit about a dividend cafe or other sponsor this week, which David Bonbons financial podcast. Before I get to the dividend, CAFE, though, I want a plug David Bonds, a wonderful new book. That's out this week on Elizabeth Warren called Elizabeth warn, our presidency would destroy the middle class and the american dream. I was fortunate enough to host a book event for David here, a noose, New York City, the other night and David is just in any financial matter he's. One of my first calls, I trust the judgment on anything, financial or economic, or even political, as well

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There and sign up for the dividend CAFE podcast for ongoing analysis of the trade war, the election, the FED and so much more. That's dividend cafe for no nonsense: economic cometary from the box and group you're antidote to thoughtlessness and laziness of today's financial adviser population and, of course, while you're at it pick up David's new book on Elizabeth warrants, serb for a girl. Let's hit a few other things, Charlie you're reach that we at old, parkland and doubts. I was extraordinary place, has a debating chamber thy, moderated debate for the National Institute state of constitutional law and the nature of individual rights between our deserts and can star so great evening. What a fabulous place to be the chamber

in which we hosted this debate was inside a model of Monte and and the interior is all done in that unique late, eighteenth century early nineteenth century style. I don't know enough about settings or architecture to know where it came from, but that seventeen hundreds, eighteen hundreds american, look what you find in Monti, Cello, Montpelier, Mount Vernon and so forth, really doesn't look like anywhere else french- not british, it's not german anyhow! This place is incredible. It's a shame. I didn't have more time to explore, because parliament is a great deal to offer their old parkland in Dallas check it out so Jimmy than watching season. Of occupied yes, this is this is an update, in particular from Michael. I had heard from

Father in law- that season three wasn't as good as the first two I'm three and a half up loads into what is only a six episode season. Three so far I would say as if it's not is good. It's only by a smidgen, still very excited, still very tense and willing running the show does well besides the fact that this great concept, the gist is it's not too distant, future, the? U S is withdrawn from NATO. Some sort of war in the Middle EAST has cut off oil supplies from there, and we know whether for a green prime minister gets elected the aged in Norway. He announces their stopping oil and gas production because it hurts the environment and more or less with the acquiescence of the EU. Russia comes in, it says no we're taking over and we're gonna start the gas and oil production and it's. This kind of you know slow, polite Russian, take over and kind of how the Norwegians great very slowly, realise the threat to themselves and gradually begin to fight back and very compact, morally complicated break through all kinds of shades of grey.

A very grown up show each episode skips ahead about a month, and so you have this. You know gradually building tension by month. This third season, the Russia appears to have withdrawn, and it looks like this. Be adding bodes very clear that things are not happy. I dig that sometimes managing things after a crisis is every bit as difficult intense as during the crisis, so still really joint, still really good are you, unlike anything else, on american television right now? So Michael? We lost the great Roger scrutiny this week, Yeah Roger scrutinise my brightened by intellectual here only only when it is like I'm in my life tat, I ve met Dr Thompson, a fan of unabashedly and down this just because you haven't met toss. Yet

that was we're mix some categories here very dangerous way. Ok at scrutinise scrutiny is going to be one most important, conservative, thinkers and writers in English. In a century I mean in a century from people still be reading him. If you dont know much about him, there's a if you search for Roger scrutiny, beauty on Youtube, it's very easy to find a little BBC documentary he did, which gives you the full flavour of this english philosopher both his is real passion for music architecture, painting, just the artifacts of high culture and civilisation and protecting the good, the Turin, the beautiful

but also his wit. He kind of interacts with some modern artists who produce this disturbing ugly. Joan can confront them about the the worldview and moral impulses that inspire them and he's really really funny as well. So anyway, just my condolences to his family and his friends, but he's provided about fifty books of work for us to continue to read for the rest of our lifetimes and try to catch up to

so in short, a merely rest in peace. Sir, ever much less exalted, sir item to raise before the holidays are thought to be fun, to get some through old school loose popcorn that you pop on the stove love the popping actually members a kid, but I realized there. I'm sure this in truth of surgery over here, but their people, people under thirty five dont, know what to do with this, that they would not know how to cook it in I brought. It happened with it if we had some of what what's that, but it is a lot of fun and what it. What I realized is bought. This huge bottle of popcorn from target cost about two hours and fifty cents everything's for expensive in New York City and in quickly realized like a teaspoon of this is, is almost like. It's a whole bang, popcorn class. You five dollars in Europe can still have work that our way, although it through this bottle, very eaten, probably like.

A hundred fifty dollars worth of of popcorn. So an addition to the kind of fun. It's it's a great deal and with that before we go it's time for enters, picks, Charlie. What's your point, I add whale and dismantling mocked s stern. A bench members marked S, Stern wrote this post in which he suggested that Amy kindly Baron had said and written all sorts of things that she hadn't, I dont know. Other matters, MR knows that he is being of cheese or doesn't know that he was being of juice either way he was and at whale and goes through patiently line by line pointing his mistakes. Jim. What you bet I have selected apparently want to more controversial things we ve written in a while our colleague Kevin Williamson. Writing a quarter post entitled our stupid, times etc. I dont know about

whole can of worms. But basically we wrote a peace that involve covered the attentions, and indeed our community national abuse being accused of aunt Semitism, is horse puppy and I really wanted to use another word there and look right. Now we are in an era where there's just so much incentive to misread things. There is so, much instead of to say, oh this clause, We must have been written with a terrible and malicious intention, because you know Oh, you are our colleague Evans each other.

Two guys you go and serving the idea for rabid anti Semites right, I mean just natural suspect for the sort of thing and Kevin's just had enough of it and I'm sick of it- and I am hearing criticism from folks- are usually friends of an hour, and I just I just of had it states its infuriating that so many people would jump to kind of conclusions. You know NASH Reviews, written gobs and gobs of material are denouncing anti Semitism and that one quote one paragraph apparently were on the side of anti Semites. I've had it and thank you cabin for basically giving these people every bit of the grief that the deep they need to hear Amity, which your pic

repeating reiterating a pick you had last week. I finally got to read: limestones cover peace on the baby bust and what it means. This is the subject that preoccupies my mind. More than anything else and alignment is essential. Reading on it more information, what society looks like when you don't don't have kids in a small pic is Romania's piece on impeachment from last issue, Romania's in favour and we ran it online in a debate format and anybody responded, but anyone whose against impeachment, though the way I am needs to read this peace and really engage in it, and it's always disturbingly for me where measures on the other side of something and that this peace, just as this amazing collyer rush, possesses incredibly concise but then just as has the air tight

as of this, this logical construction that that went once you're in it. You can't find your way out you're trying to chink aware at the realistic and it sir, and it's really hard. So I recommend a vote. If you haven't read it yet, please do and that's it for us even listening to a natural view. Podcasting you re broadcast retransmission Canada's game without the express written permission of National View Magazine is strictly prohibited, as pot gasoline produced by the incomparable, Sir Shitty, who makes a sound better than we deserve thanks. Charlie. Thank Jim. Thank you, Michael thanks to whip and to the Dividend CAFE podcast and thanks especially to all of you for listening. We are the editors and we'll see

You.