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of armed conflict can be devastating for women and families caught in the middle they coming to the greens- and I see them laughing at me, but women are not victims of war. Their survivors, peacebuilders and leaders I will certainly do everything that I can to provide whatever support that you and the other women deserve bring them all together in this programme. I am suzanne kiev, and this is women- building peace on the BBC world service and this series we hear the voices of women around the world who are trying to build peace and protect communities affected by violent conflict with the help of the georgetown two to four women, peace and security we are explore how women are trying to make a difference in the conflict and post conflict zones where they live and talking to glow influencers How the international community can help this week? Afghanistan

and the limiting of girls, education and opportunities, the taliban, They cover in Afghanistan has left girls and women uncertain about their future and almost every province girls are unable to attend secondary school and many schools have been closed. Since the taliban takeover august of last year, girls who do manage to school often suffer intimidation, one fifteen year old told BBC not being able to study, feels like a death penalty, I'm joined by former: u S, secretary of state, Hillary Clinton. Madam secretary, thank you for taking part in this discussion. Thank you for having me. also with us, run geena. How midi afghanistan's former minister of education who left the country after the taliban took over in august she's now, based in phoenix arizona. Thanks for having me and

from Afghanistan were joined by a young woman who we're calling lama, that's not her real name, protecting her identity for her own security lama, monk several afghan women who got in touch with me shortly after the taliban take over. They wanted. There were is to be heard, and they especially asked me to pass on their stories and please for help too men and women in the international community. Here we can have that conversation lama. You were student in kabul when the taliban took over last summer. You tell me what your life was written before august. How has changed before tat one occupation? I had a very big The life that I had allied with multiple opportunities of my life was good. I had to. I had the right of the education. I had the right of my several activities. I had to write to our work and the workforce of my country. I had the right to

True, the mice avert candidates in the presidential election and also in the parliamentary elections. I've had the right to work and to have my freedom to have my freedom of opinion to have my freedom of speech, but after all, one took over my life can build their completely change mike loading, a stag ginger, I saw the two were broker and also my as social gradually change, because I wasn't active woman among by society and I joined the social guttering seeming hours confronts us political decision making. But after I guess we didn't, I couldn't there for speed and most of the political conferences and seminars my movements was much restricted. I couldn't use

identity. I should always hide my identity. Madam secretary, you ve worked throughout your career to raise the voices of women like lama. As first lady, you champion the notion that women's rights are human rights. What do you have to say to lama today? Will? First, I think lama has been incredibly brave to be part of this programme, especially since, as we just heard from her, it's an incredibly unstable, and dangerous situation, our right now we're not using her real name. She is in hiding, and I can only say lama that I hope that there will be a way to influence

the taliban regime, are to have a different approach, at least toward women's education, so that you and others will be able to pursue and continue and complete your education in afghanistan, and I hope that we can, through international pressure through other kinds of interventions, with the taliban, persuade them that you all their fine words when they were negotiating for the end of military action in afghanistan. In doha, qatar. They made comments. They made a sure and says that they had changed when it can. to the women of afghanistan. So I will certainly do everything that I can to try to provide whatever support, even though its from a long distance that you, when the other women per day?

The young women like yourself, deserve and try to bring increasing pressure on the table, on our to allow girls to go to school. The final thing I would say, lama is that it's such a perversion, the way that they view ah their role and what they believe is appropriate behaviour every other islamic country, every single one permit Sarah girls and women to go to school, to go to higher education to have opportunities? SAM. The kingdom of saudi arabia is opening up much more to women's possibilities and all the things that you are just saying that you used to be able to do

so they are not in any way in concert with other islamic nation. So it's important that we keep stressing that their approach is a very ancient, antiquated one that doesn't have any place in today's world lama. What's your response to secretary Clinton? Tell her I thank you so much as the guy Clinton. Thank you so much. Madam secretary, for their support and their from your go too far worse, thank you so much. It really means vote for the woman of afghanistan. Indeed, I would like to say that to a woman nor considered as a toggle in the afghan society and afghan security society, especially nowadays after I guess fifteen nowadays, woman considered as a second or may be the last gender of this

society, they have no right of education. We are waiting for your reopening of universities. Colleges, coups taliban promised us that they will provide the lucifer government for the people of afghanistan. According to the Doha agreement, but data than apply their promise to them the women of afghanistan in the twenty first century was done country you saw promoting new technology, but I'm living in a land I'm living in a country that is more restricted in the twenty first century. It is isolated from the rest of the world Ranking a you as a former government minister, you wanted to stay in afghanistan after the taliban took over. What made you decide to leave, and how do you feel about your decision today

the decision behind my leaving, was predominantly, and primarily the future of my daughter, who is a young child still and the fear of watching her, where, if I was lucky enough to remain alive in afghanistan, I would have to watch her grow without the opportunity that I wanted her to have. As a girl child in Afghanistan. It's been a tough, very tough decision, not only making it while I left, but also living with it and now far away, because the responsibility on the shoulders of women, like myself, not only women in high positions in the government, but we had a a of a huge group of women activists from the civil society

women working in various international organizations to of wide variety of positions in the government, obviously far less than we had anticipated unwanted and really really high positions, but the lower positions did comprise of many women across the country, so it is. It is difficult to live with this life, but you know one thing that gives me the energy to contain Working is too still here that there are women like lama and millions of other young women who either were educated and or were in the process of becoming educated

but who they are on the ground and who are still courageously, as madam secretary has stated, courageously raising their voice that they do hope to have a different future than what the present presence to them. Right now. I would still call on all of the international community, particularly the muslim countries across the globe particularly those muslim nations that are communicating and negotiating, was still talking with the taliban regime, but the responsibility on them as to how can you port and allow a regime that takes the basic right of education from millions of girls in a country like Afghanistan,

terry Clinton, you personally work to bring women out of afghanistan in august and september. How did that come about? First, let me thank grinned ghana for not only which she just said, but for her years of incredible leadership and work on behalf of civil society. In it, Afghanistan and then, of course, serving as the acting minister of education, something that hadn't happened? A woman in that position? For thirty years- and I think we listen to rank ina, you listen to lama, you can be just incredibly touched and inspired by women and there are, as rendita said, millions more. I began working on behalf of F, and women in the late nineties, because back in those days the taliban was on another charm offensive and they wanted to get recognise. They wanted the, u n seat for the country of it.

Anna stand, and I and others were opposed to that unless they Began to you have some our respect and recognition of the rights of women so fast forward to today. I've been privileged to me and work with many afghan women over the last twenty plus years, and I can only tell you that their enthusiasm, their energy, their determination, ah, has been awe inspiring for me. So when it became clear because of the agreement signed by our prior president to leave afghanistan in may of of the twenty twenty one, and then there was a an acceptance of having to leave by our current president. I knew that we had to be alert to doing everything we could to protect women and girls and once as such

I'm a sad august, fifteenth happened. We were somewhat prepared with a list of of women who had been in government and politics in the media and journalism in business, alf, education as as lama, sad and as rank rondine dead. They were active in their society. It would be hopeful that they might be able to stay, because perhaps the taliban would live up to the nice words that they used in Doha, But the realistic assessment of I and many others inside and outside of afghanistan is that they had not changed and they would not respect the rights and andor opportunities women. So I began working with a number of groups and many other organisations and individuals who came together raised funds chartered planes found places

for women in their families to seek refuge after being evacuated. It was one of the most heartbreaking experiences of my life, because many of these women did not want to leave their country. They didn't want to leave their extended families. They certainly didn't want to leave their work, but they were literally given no choice, ranking. I wonder now exiled afghans doing to help the women and children left behind who want to get an education. There is a lot of concern not only from a phone, in the diaspora, both those committed so I'm in the united states. Right now in arizona, we have two groups of afghans, those who were living in america prior to the fall of afghanistan on august, fifteenth and also the new comers towards basically making them life home again in a completely new.

Environment that their resettling, but the passion and their cry to help and to reach afghans, friends, family or just a mere countrymen and women after three or four months now, media attention on Afghanistan, as a country as a nation is slowly diminishing, so at the biggest among afghans, even here living in america, is that the international community, including america or them can government will forget. The pride of the people of Afghanistan was particularly women, but at the same time I am also witness in another powerful phenomena which among women is critically important. The women as as heartbroken as me may be, and am I consider myself part of that group we are solely recognising dumb regrouping ourselves too

rejuvenate to re plan and to reach strategies ourselves, because our hope and belief is that a fact Son will not remain the way it is right now, so keeping that hope alive that what can we do from afar should the situation changed back on the ground in terms of either turning back for those of us who can and might verses not being able to return, but continue to help from which our destiny that afghans have now fallen into and that strategy is actually giving me hope too. In the midst of seeing horrible pictures of children starving of the economy of the country devastated. We cannot afford to but communicate and put pressure on and convey them

suggest to the taliban that the women of Afghanistan or the people of afghanistan are not the people that they inherited in the mid nineties nineties. This is a different countries to different generation of people they need to know, and they will know- and I think they already know- that they're not going to survive for much longer. Of course, at the end of the day, the force of the weapon of the bullet of violence unfortunately has shut many voices, historically globally but at the same time, the power of media of internet of technology are ways that give us new hope and new opportunities and, in particular in education. Lama. How are you feeling do you feel, like afghans are being heard by the international community, dancing

very good, very depressed when I see international communities when I see wardour silent towards stall one, because all the people are leaving scan she need as an international community international organization. United nations should support, as should the appear to enter into our vices, because our faces as very important gonna is ensured, listen to us and they should, but they should also be added sent to us now why these after dedication is burnt. After the employment is banned. Now people lost their experience to starvation at the international development. The international aid should also provide the aid for the people of Afghanistan my own, very small experience of sitting face to face with the taliban members, and now they were not the leadership at the ministry of education when they called me to come meet with them They still remained in kabul a week after the fall. I

believe it or not. I mean I don't know which kind of courage within me, allow me to go and said, and I did and, from my short encounter of four and a half hours with the members of the Taliban, I did find one of them, as stated in his closing remarks to me saying we need, you have more of these types of sitting. Together to under stand each other and to respect each other, and that little conversation gave me hope that perhaps if we do continue the conversation but industry in it in a strategic, where perhaps we might be able to. convince, although I'm not very hopeful with the decisions that they are making on the ground, with the remarks and the violence that they still continue to use, but at the moment we need to be realistic. The taliban

are in control of Afghanistan, whether we like it or not, there are, unfortunately in control, other than using in essence of peaceful negotiations, communications strategizing to continue to pressurize them to change their plans and strategies towards women and girls in education and other things. What option is there to go fight if killing and bombing in fighting and violence could solve Afghanistan's problem? We would have a perfect country now, after almost forty five years of destruction, destructive efforts, so women's involvement in peace and security efforts is crucial and making or that we can solve very. very important issues through mechanisms of talking

negotiating listening understanding and hopefully, making even the most opposite abuse such as the taliban, women to win them over and make them understand, and I personally will never support any other violent missions to go and cause more destruction in Afghanistan. We have had enough I'm secretary. Is there an opportunity to leverage rights for girls and women? Should world leaders recognise the taliban as illegitimate, government think there are opportunities and again I totally agree with everything rank said, ah, it's not going easy and it's not clear what leverage or conditions the international community has been. Let me just make three points first I would not recognize the taliban. Certainly at this point there is leverage in

whether or not they have any access to the international community, and I think that their need to be a coordinated effort by governments, the, u n and others to extract concessions and changes from the taliban as they are. Perhaps given more recognition, but it should not be offered and provided without some kind of demonstrable measurable changes that go right to the heart of what we're talking about. Second, I would very much like to see the the afghan die, ass, poorer people like grand geena, who I have years of experience in Afghanistan. Ah, an where's young people like lama. I'd like to see an effort by afghans who are currently out of the country are too

coordinate among themselves to make approaches to governments that do have influence with the taliban I'm a mention pakistan. We know it has influence. There are many others who ever has influence with the taliban speak with one voice in so far that is possible and on a list of demands. priorities for change, certainly, reopening schools and clear Colleges and universities providing more opportunities for girls and women has to be at the top, and finally, there is a mediterranean disaster unfolding in Afghanistan. People are starving children. The pictures I think, ranging mentioned, are just incredibly terrible to see the taliban doesn't know how to run a government I'd. Sadly, you know that

better at fighting than talking or governing, and so we do need see if there are ways to again leverage even humanitarian aid. We shouldn't turn our backs on the suffering of the people who are still in afghanistan and perhaps offering whether its food aid or health aid or other kinds of support. That too, can be a point of influence with the taliban. I'd like to thank my. ass secretary, Hillary Clinton, ranking, aha midi and mama in afghanistan, You have been listening to women building peace, a coal production between the BBC world service and the georgetown institute for women, peace and security. I'm suzanne can Thank you for joining me. Thank you for listening. There will be more from the doktor report podcast soon the doktor.

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