I am Angela say me, and this is smart women male genius on the BBC world service. So when you think about who is well. Yet the images are often of a male white scientists in a lab, go doing really complicated things if we, it denied the label of genius as often as men are it's not because the world is easier for us. It's because the world is harder for us. How are we going to listen? and pay attention to women genius if we just despise them. It's been whole marked and benchmarks by male features and its I remember being the only girl who turned up to my local chest club growing up, so I loved the queen's gambit at

click series about chess, podgy, Beth harmon, a fictional character. The show like Beth wasn't it national sensation. In twenty twenty and a top ten hit in ninety two countries, proficiency in chess is often associate it is with genius. Generally, defined as someone with extraordinary intellectual or creative abilities, but even to only thirty seven of over seventeen hundred grand masters are women it's not the only activity we're having a rare, talent or exceptional intelligence is more. created with a particular agenda, but there are plenty of women today and throughout history do merit the mantle of genius and yet for some reason, society does see them. That way. I wanted to stand why maybe this is where it all began. Things on buses, pleas for your first question

Eighteen, seventy five spanish psychologists, one warty said that genius was stored in a particular part of the human body which part you're out of time. I'm afraid the answer is testicles. Yes, ingenious apparently stored in a part of the body that women generally turn possess. He also said that you couldn't be a genius if scientifically. illiterate at a time, few women were educated and those two qualifications testicles and a knowledge of science continue to influence the popular perception of genius today, if you were to say genius just off the top of my head probably say albert einstein, albert einstein, observers like stephen hawking isaac, newton, still happy. I would say einstein. German born scientist albert einstein is known for his nobel prize for physics and to see

these of relativity. He was except general maths and played the violin, but he wasn't brilliant it. Everything and, in fact, failed. Some subjects, in nineteen twenty one, he took a test used by the american inventor thomas edison, to gauge the intelligence of potential employees. One of the questions was what is the speed of sound? Its three hundred and forty nine It is per second einstein didn't know that in fact he failed edison's test. So If you answered correctly, does that make you smarter than einstein well, for him question was irrelevant to intelligence. Why memorize the speed of sound, we argued when you could

he lifted up, which germany I saw in his rich german political philosophy and revolutionary married his childhood sweeter journey from this fallen in eighteen. Forty three often engagement that lasted seven years marks is correct. Some people are brilliant. It answering questions that involve feats of memory, this year, a twenty four year old man became the youngest person to win mastermind one of the baby. these longest running tv quiz shows in this game. Memory matters as it does in passing many exams, another popular gauge of intelligence, one british team who knows this first hand founded a charity, called young, active mines to help others prove their memory like he has. He wrote a best selling books when he was seven and has been cut,

to stephen hawking, but he rejects the label genius. I Monti, lord on fifteen and I'm a five time get us what russia holder off was a memory. Can you explain what it's like for you when you are trying to recall something in your head, I remember all the countries in the eu. What I do is, I imagine my own house and then I basically take objects in the house, and then I associate that with like a country from the eu, but we want to make it look as bizarre as possible source memorable. So, for example, you walk the house and watson. You from ports is like a small start, giovanni but our then he just associate that was france when you and then, let's say next year, into the living room in this, like a chimpanzee jumping on the sofa with an icy milan to teach, you are asking to be ITALY and is something anyone could learn. Then I definitely say anyone could learn it, but many do see genius in the capacity to memorize facts, others. So,

it is more complex and varied like the ability to solve complicated equations or hans, like fred astaire paint like leonardo DA vinci or compose like Mozart whose music dude there's no arguing that men like Mozart, do deserve the genius label, no matter how broadly we apply it, but what for people know is that fred astaire, older sister Adele, was considered the better dancer, but mozart system, Maria anna, was a brilliant the pianist harpsichord player so much so the one maria and played with her brother. She, saved top billing. Mathematician and concept pianist. Doktor Eugenia Chang is scientist in residence at the school of the art institute of chicago in the unite. States cheaply, genius and talent in music or maths, for instance, lies in early

exposure, but for her this, All reason why so many lorded western composers, ten to be men, that's because a simple exclusion of women because women want allowed to do that in the past. even if they showed ability that was stopped ass, soon ass. They got married and so that people like Clara Schuman, who was allowed to come, playing the piano, but her composer husband, human kind of stopped her composing or wanted her just play. His pieces and then there's fanny mendelson, and but I think also alma mater, and so it's not that women couldn't do it. It's that they really want allow just like they want allowed into education that they want allowed to do phds. What

interesting about the women you've named is that they're related to will married to or the sisters of all the daughters of, very accomplished men, and that's not a coincidence. Is it because so many of the women in history who we think of as exceptional, but given that opportunity, by their dimity to exceptional men, yes, and maybe just that we have forgotten about the other p, Well, because they never got celebrated and it was only because of their proximity to those famous meant that they get celebrated and there's a romantic idea of genius is being slightly weird, very solitary working by themselves, and I really dislike this idea, because I don't think that's how all of the greatest advances in humanity have been achieved. So much more is achieved by people laying the groundwork by setting up frameworks that are really illuminating and by collateral

with each other, gradually developing ideas. I am. I think that that gets very overlooked with dismissive genius does a very good point, because I do think that we, of this loan genius idea of some, the great and scientific history in particular people, albert einstein and einstein, is a really great example, because einstein is perhaps the classic junior and yet there is someone else in that story who made a really important contribution, but it happens to be a female person and that's the mathematician, emmy nutter and what she did was she made an amazing connection between pure mathematics and physics, which enabled einstein and his collaborators to better understand what his theory of relativity was really doing they were really stuck on something they asked her for help because she was the mathematical expert. She made this amazing theorem, connecting symmetry in mathematics with conservation laws in physics, but he gets all the credit

We easily forget that talent is usually realised within an ecosystem is very rare, for someone to come along with a kind of superhuman skill that defies understanding as a child. Growing up in india are next gas discovered. The tree had amazing mathematical paths and at the age of just three, she was giving mental arithmetic demonstrations at university. She has a place in the guinness book of records for multiplying to thirteen digit numbers faster than a maid frame, computer, a feat never recorded before, so we welcome a now. Should consular davy presented David, fast

bbc tv show in nineteen. Ninety six, oh two, three six to eight eight mother, the cube of nine is three: what is a cue route of that number six hour, two three six to eight eight or the culprit of this number. is three hundred ninety two: is it correct, correct chicken davy was fated for her mathematical feats, but also her entertaining banter. Her natural talent seen as exceptional one dimensional, and there was a reluctance by many to describe her as a mathematical genius. Could this be because she was a woman? It's hard to say, But what is interesting is how we can't help but see people's natural abilities differently depending agenda. Take autism, sir

and to have drawn links between what many of us think of his genius and a high functioning form of autism, known as Asperger's daughter miller. Pang is a scientist who wrote the award winning book on standing humans, she was I agonized with autism spectrum disorder aged eight statistics show that three times more men are diagnosed with in the uk, then what nah and four times as many men are diagnosed with Asperger's. Doktor pan believes this is partly because diagnosis is affected by gender stereotypes. I think, if you've been taught that you are in the world are not designed for you and you don't fit anyway. You go. It's gonna be really hard to see yourself as a genius and you're gonna have to have confidence in yourself and have your own back to realise that the difference itself is actually something that is part of you and when you are taught us that difference being a problem is really hard.

To see yourself in any other light than inconvenience. So this is an ironically to do with the the genius and the person is to do with the attitudes in enabling that person in question to shine, because the nature of autism, how it prevents and females is very different. So if you don't fit into the autism box, which is benchmarked by males, then where do we fit? This is what cultural stereotypes do they try and categorize you, and if you don't fit into the categories and you feel uncomfortable, you don't know what the places, and it does feel as though many societies we have a place for the brilliant, an unusual male mind or the unusual man, but we don't seem to have a place for the brilliant you sure woman, yeah, yeah latrine, you said it perfectly is exactly the case, because If your brilliant and unusual woman, then you're crazy she's crazy. You know what she's like oil, women, oh, but actually, how are we gonna? Listen and pay attend,

two women genius, if we just despise them to be crazy as very The label to give a woman and that's because naturally, we're all different and when some doesn't fit, we just call it crazy. It's been hallmarked and benchmarked by male features, and it's toxic General knowledge question now which australian, feminist wrote the books fight like a girl and boys will be boys. The answer is. Clementine ford and she's also interested in why women are treated differently to men when it comes the genius. I think fit the wave it Genius in women is sort of broadly conceived off is as if it's an outlier, so we have these women who exhibit genius it almost traded as if

the same way. You know women who exhibit extremely proficient athletic prowess that somehow they doing something and not really supposed to be doing that they ve globe down to some kind of innately male trait, and this makes them special in some ways, but it also means that they really in a in a field and in a space that they don't really deserve. Access to. Another thing here that have sometimes noticed is that when and a very brilliant at what they do is often attributed to hard work day. I think of it in my head. harry potter, metaphors, wishing really for the way that a minor granger is the hard working one. That's what a special, whereas Harry potter himself was born just billions and whatever happens, he will always be the sort of trudging diligence of women. You know that

just sit down and work hard, and yet, at the same time women who achieve brilliance, they do it against the odds of having space in which to flourish, and yet that is never treated like an exceptional ability to be able to do those things. I am Sarah Jane leslie, the class of nineteen. Forty three profess, through a philosophy at princeton university in twenty. Sixteen study showed that many people found it difficult to associate the word woman with the wood genius risk but you have observed this reluctance to assign natural talent to half the population. Among them professor leslie as part of several experiments with andreasen pin and began. Examining except when young children start to view intelligence differently. Looking at girls and boys of ages between five and seven, we found that at age, five

boys and girls were equally likely to think that some one of their own gender could be really really smart and that continues for boys as they age up to six and seven years of age and beyond, but for little girls we saw a market change six year old girls were significantly less likely than have year old girls and then six year old boys to think that a member of their own gender could be really really smart and Furthermore, when we ask those little girls, little boys if they wanted to play a game that was only for really really smart kids. We found. But by the age of six, girls were significantly ass, interested and less willing to play such a game than boys I mean is remarkably insidious? Is neither those kind of stereotypes is such a young age can become wove?

into the way a young child thinks about herself. Absolutely I mean just picture a six year old right at the young. Already at that age, they ve not only internalize the stereotypes, but these are going to shape the kinds of educational choices that they make going forward, these stereotypes don't reflect reality. The average Intelligence of men and women is the same in many countries, girls. perform boys at school, so well, these ideas coming from Christine his brown is a professor of psychology, kentucky university who thinks it's clear: what's fee our gender stereotypes, it seems to be the cultural prototypes of, who has shown as geniuses right so when you think about who is a brilliant. The images are often of a male white scientists

in a lab co, doing really complicated thing. So you know the kind albert einstein is the prototype that many kids hold in their heads, and so they extrapolate it from. If that's, whose a genius then They must also be the ones that are going to be geniuses, even though girls are really smart. So what happens if we move gender from the equation in one expect, I meant in an american school with children aged between five and eleven researchers did just that rebecca bigler was working with this school and had half of the classrooms sheet the teachers and had them use gender in what we call a functional way. So really way we would use gender and pre much any primary school out their worries. A good morning, boys and girls, you know, let's line up boy girl, boy girl arena. Let's have the girls get the scissors and the boys get the glue just using gender to sort and categorize

as the classroom, the other half of the classrooms, that teachers were asked to never use gender in that way is to say good morning, kids, if they I have some kind of classification to do something not based on gender. So you know, let's have everyone on the left side line up no agreement on the right side. That type of thing so ignoring gender as this functional category. I want you and was, after only six weeks of school in these types of classrooms, the kids- gender room, so the ones teachers used? Gender had said longer gender stereotypes, then the kids in the other rooms. What kind of presumptions were these kids? Having about boys and girls and men and women with our more like, to assume that women can do certain occupations and men can do other occupations, and so kids are more likely to think

that only women can do those feminine types of occupations like being a teacher a nurse, and only men can do the male occupations- and I do think it's particularly striking at the male occupations are present united states just might run for president David. If they ain't, no press the switch and the shit. I'm about to add a little estrogen. There's work. I've done with back a we later and looked at kids? I he is about who can be present at the united states, and so we know that about a third girls think that currently against the law for women to be president of the united states on gas. It changed a little bit with our own point. Sixteen election with Hillary Clinton running, but the numbers

we're still pretty strong, because for kids I think, speaks to the broader conversation about careers and brilliance. Is that kids look to whose done it in american classrooms as pre stand? I have a poster of all the presidents and they're all men. You know if you're a child looks like someone made a rule, so it's actually a pretty logical, explanation. Unfortunately, it is still the case that we live in a world in which gender is constantly being used to categorize DR eugenia Cheng. also challenged this in her book ex plus. Why a must petitions manifesto for rethinking gender. well as being a mathematician. Chang is also a concert pianist. She herself. Has been labelled a genius so different

I also think that getting rid of labels might help us refrain the complex notion of genius. I believe yes and what I proposed in my book ex plus one.

It was that we use some new terminology that tries to remove gender from the equation, as it were, so that we can have new words to think about these things distinct from gender, and I propose the terms ingress iv and congress of an ingress of is to signify kind of individualism going into things and congress. It is about bringing things together and about the community, and I think that genius is a very interesting concept and that there are much more congress have ways of making progress that we have been overlooking. Another great example is florence nightingale, who I don't think is generally thought of as a genius. I think that she is typically known as the lady of the lamp a famous nurse, but she was also a brilliant statistician. Not only does she do brilliant careful data analysis to work out why so many people were dying. She invented brilliant visualization techniques because she understood that it was really important. Not just to do the analysis, but to be able to commit

kate it to the people who made policy so that they would be convinced to change the policy, and I think that that's a kind of congress of form of genius that gets really overlooked. The other problem with the word genius is that it makes a person appear almost transcendent only the scene is to special to criticise in the same way as others now, if men, as we have heard a more often label this way, because of the sexist ways in which we think about natural brilliance, then, according to clementine forward, this quickly becomes a talks Haven't you for getting away with bad behaviour, entrenching the problems of sexism even further. I think that the way that genius is framed in men makes it impossible

for women to be described in the same way, because so much of what is kind of characterized as male genius is also tied up in really stereo typical male traits of dominance in the eccentric genius. The lady killer genius, you know, picasso's the artist dick cheney, asked that had numerous affairs and was a womanizer, etc, etc, with very little and she really of the kind of predatory nature of those relationships, and we can use the excuse of their perceived genius to be able to lead get away with it. One of the things that I think people don't think enough about is what is lost by the success of these men. You know if the castle was predatory towards seventeen year old girls, which we know that he was what is lost from the trauma that women experience at the hands of men, who think that they can do whatever they want. The witch woman is not creating. Art is not writing. Books is not

sculpting is not becoming a political leader because of trauma that they may have suffered along the way or even just people not supporting her in the same way that many supported you constantly exercise their genius. If women are denied the label of genius as often as men are it's not because the world is easier for us, it's because the world is harder for us the old explanations were that if you're, too educated as a woman, all the blood with leave your womb and go to your brain, and you would be infernal em and I was men's explanations for why we should negotiate women hundred years ago. As a result, there are deep, you know long standing reasons for and of keeping women out of the highest levels of thinking and still manage to be brilliant, despite that, despite the stereo types and the historic barriers, girls and women too day in many societies are being given more space to shine, to see them

abilities, nurtured maria lord lancaster, discovered daughter, lillian's talents at an early age. She could read from the age of two and she could care in thousands shifting debate, in most applications using algebra at nursery and when she sought you from risk? When we said to her teacher, we think she might be the bones and they were little bit skeptical, but then with it in the first six weeks, I said we want to know how we can help her better. Is there any way you can have him assessed by anyone and that's what we did and were robust did I hear I keeping quiet as high as it was an lily in and iron age? I left side when I joined name. In my view, is a hundred lillian was just full when she took the test for the high iq society mensa, I asked, how she applies her mind to solving a typical maths problem. I look at. They can't hear aging.

how hard it really I figured it might look for the night now and then I feel that any shock hot and then after that, I think plug back out, and then I do what you would normally don't pay is in my head. How does it feel for you when other people all say that your genius or your or that you're very clever. It makes me feel quite happy because I like people, he added mean that if someone were to ask you who do you think is a genius who? Would you name me you didn't. I think your answer was the best answer it had. I want Remember that you can be anyone and be a genius I imagine, the same emphasis being smart women now, it was produced by sea nelson and is a boffin media production, the bbc

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