From your times, I'm like, above all, this is the daily today of them the charges and losses filed against former president trunk. Perhaps the most personal is playing out in a court room in new york city, case that could end in him losing control of his best known buildings and pink there of millions of dollars in fines. Over the past few days, my colleague, John upon, which has been inside the corporal watching as trumps children and trump himself, have taken the stand. It's Wednesday november, eighth

Jonah, thank you for taking a break in your busy schedule of being in the corner. I very happy to be here so johnny. You spent the past several. is in a new york city courtroom where, for the first time, the adult sons of donald trump and don trump himself have all taken the stand and testified and we're going to get to their testimony. But I want to start by asking you to just describe this case, because there are so many cases against donald trump. This is one of many and it's a civil case, which is probably why I think it's gotten a lot less attention than all the criminal cases against trump Also about this case. So this case was brought by new york's attorney general Letitia James James ran for office in two thousand and eighteen and she ran for office talking about donald trump, a lot of the,

right, she's, a Democrat, and she made clear. He was in her sights, that's exactly right, and so she takes office in twenty team and shortly thereafter, Michael Cohen, whose of former fixer from he testifies in front of congress. And all of you remember this kind from the fog of the truck presidency ideal, but he testifies about some of the conduct, the from his undertaken. It might be of interest to congress, and that includes manila leading the values of his property to get favourable? from banks from insurers and so with james in office, mourning those comments quickly turn into an investigation. I'm announcing that today we are filing a lawsuit against Donald. and that investigation turns into a lawsuit that she files and twenty twenty two against trump and

tis adult signs and against his company. The complaint demonstrates that donald trump falsely inflated his net worth by billions of dollars to unjustly enrich himself and to cheat the system, thereby cheating all of us And broadly she's, accusing him of exaggerating the values of a lot of his properties: hotels, his apartment buildings, his golf clubs, and there's some really good kind of specific details in here. So, for example, take MR trumps. Tripe lacks a triple x apartment in tromp, tower on fifth avenue, one of the weak properties at issues from tower, and he has this triple x apartment and from tat right now. This number is burned into my

in his triple x. Apartment is ten thousand nine hundred and ninety six square feet. Nice, big apartment, that's right, but for years mrs trump represented that he's apartment, spanned more than thirty thousand square feet. Tromp was saying, was three times that big on the financial statements. That was the value of it as if it were thirty thousand feet and based on that inflated square foot, age, the value of the apartment, twenty fifteen and twenty. Sixteen was three hundred and twenty seven million dollars to this date. No apartment in new york city has ever so for close to that amount. Tripling the size of the apartment for purposes of the evaluation was intentional, and liberate fraud, not an honest mistake. So this is a great example of what he's accused of doing writ large he's, exaggerating the number of square feet me apartment, he's valuing, as if it were three times as big as it actually is, and that's the number that goes into the financial statement and those finance

statements, go to banks and insurance to what end. Overall, the attorney general says. By doing this, the loan terms were better. The insurance terms were better. It gave him favourable treatment from those companies that he was doing business with and she's asking for really serious punishments out of this she's asking for at least two hundred and fifty million dollar fine. While a quarter of a million dollars, that's right, she's asking that trump be permanently board from doing business in new york. Wait I want to pass on that. That's a very big deal trusts business, the trump conditions based in new york. He owns a tunnel

big buildings in new york, that would be a huge deal. This case strikes at the foundation of Donald trump personal image, public image, this guy's a builder, a business man, a new york, real estate developer and this case directly targets that right select. This case seeks to basically separate those buildings that empire from the man itself literally and if James gets her way by the end of this donald trump won't be able to do business in new york, while so what happens, as this case, moves from allegation toward court case and closer and closer to a trial so because of the nature of this case, the nature of the law that its brought under and the kinds of consequences that aims is asking for. There is only a judge in this case, there's no jury of the judges, the ultimate finder effect. Ok, his name's, arthur, F and goran he's quirky. He

likes to make jokes from the bench. He makes all these old timey references, like he reference fiddler on the roof in one ruling and only in new york, exactly exactly and in the late summer. Early fall. James asks him to rule before the trial on the issues at the heart of the case, and we don't necessarily expect him to do it, but he does. He does just that and what he rules is that the annual financial statements where the values were contained, that those are fraudulent and that they were repeatedly and persistently used in business. That's the heart of her case right there, wow so long before there's a trial. This judge, who is the sole decider of this case, basically finds that the attorney general's case her allegations are correct. It's just a little more chaotic than that before the trial, wow okay,

What does that mean for the trial as its approaching? So it means that the issue at the heart of the trial is over. We had thought this trial is gonna, be about proving that fraud happened, but we already know that the judge believes that fraud happen he so now the trial is really about the consequences. This trial is going to be about the judge learning more about how the statements were valued about how much money the trumps made from it all to better determine whether there should be punishments and how severe they should be. So this is fascinating. This is basically it

while the donald trump and his children have already lost before begins- and everything that's going to happen in this trial is just going to be a question of the degree of loss for them. A lot of that is true. Yeah. The stakes are still crazy, high for them, because the punishments are still at issue, the fine and really their future as business people at least real estate business people, okay. So this I think, brings us to a trial and to the testimony of all these trumps and a question I have had, as I have watched this trial over the past couple of days, which is why would a member of the trump family join a testify in this trial? We have all come to understand that powerful people don't take the stand. It's too risky yeah! That's exactly right and it's a great question. I think it's a question. A lot of people have been asking and it has to do with the

true. The case this civil case not a criminal case in a criminal case, the finder, a fact be it the judge or the jury. They can't hold it against the defendant when they declined to testify, they can assume o they'd be lying. Oh they're scared their prohibited from doing the right to take effect. can be held against you at your right in civil case they can make what's called negative, inference, they can assume the worst. When you don't testify, you don't want to testify about this particular lawsuit, while it may be because you're guilty of every single thing that you're accused of doing in it got it. In other words, the trumps don't legally have to testify in this case, but if they don't, it's probably going to result in a terrible outcome for them. So in a way they kind of have to testify that's right and almost be like forfeiting their case, were they not to testify

so this week, one by one, the trumps arrive in the courtroom first hour from junior than air travel and then former president algae trump and their testing is really really revealing. although at back for over a decade rather for count, Tennessee was arresting and jailing kids for even the two minor offences he accused of stealing a football jersey jailed, a girl accused. pulling someone's hair jailed. Girl trying to use a blank cheque at a school book, fair jailed,

It happened so often to so many kids. They getting sent a juvenile detention was almost a right of passage in many cases. Also wise was illegal I'm marrable night, and this the story of how that system came to be how it can to be normalized accepted, lauded either. It's also the story of two lawyers who did see the problem than rutherford. Can they just needed other people to see it too? cereal productions and the new york times. This is the kids of rutherford county, Listen wherever you get your pot, so Jonah walk us through this testimony trump by trauma. Ok, so we start with donald from junior.

Understand his testimony. You need to understand something about the trump organization when Donald trump became president. He put donald trump, junior and cfo in charge of this trust that controls his assets. It's a pretty symbolic position but that's something down from junior was doing. He was signing things on behalf of the trust which really means he was signing them on behalf of his father right and his father create this trust. If I'm remembering correctly to it too himself from the day to day operation of the trump organization when he was president, because there be conflicts of interest You remember exactly correctly, that's what he did. Ok. So how does that apply to this lawsuit, so because he has the ceremonial role here: his name on certain documents and those documents, every so often will be a letter to the companies external accountants that says hey these financial statements that we put together every year. There are accurate and certified are accurate. Any signs as documents signs

documents, that means that donald trump junior assigning documents that say my financial statements are accurate but as we know the judge and the attorney general have said, no, these are filled with fraud caught it. So how does it the money go given that he has signed these claims that something is accurate, that the judge has already determined are not accurate. It goes pretty poorly and this is a hallmark of the attorney general's case. She has this very strong paper case. She has a lot of documents and those documents look bad for the defendants, and so when Donald trump junior is presented with this letter, there's not that much he can do, but he does kind of the worst thing he could do which is what he's on the stand he's asked about this letter and with very little hesitation. He just describes it as a quote: unquote cover your butt letter, by which he means what exactly I think he meant that it wasn't meant to be

can seriously you sell in this very dismissive way. Like oh you know. Sometimes you just sign stuff, but of course that's not how business or the law works right when you sign a document, you're attesting to something or your certifying something it has real meaning, but what's interesting about this- is that it reminded me of former president donald trump, where there are statements that are not meant to be taken seriously or their meant to be taken, half seriously He sometimes seems as if he knows what those are and he expects you know too, and that's what I saw from donald trump june. So here you're saying don't from junior is applying his father's philosophy. This kind of anything goes looseness with words, approach to life and he's applying that to his courtroom. Testimony were, of course, words matter. A lot right. The idea seems to be some things matter, some things, don't an army,

who gets to decide, and that was pretty typical of his testimony. He seemed relaxed almost cavalier up there. He was answering questions at a mile a minute, and I sometimes was just like wise this guy slowing down and thinking about what he's being asked and how it might damage? because I didn't really seem like he was doing that which was a huge contrast by the way to Eric trump who came up next. Okay, so tell us about Eric trumps testimony, so Eric trump is in some ways the opposite of his brother when he appears on the stand. He's very Jesus he doesn't seem relaxed, he seems unhappy to be there and he doesn't mind you knowing it, and the other thing to know is that air trump has a more central role at the trump organization. Is more involved overall in what's going on does. This mean that what is it all air trump is on executive vice president, but he's doing all kinds of different stuff he's doing operations he's helping with different projects around the united states,

he's really at the heart of a lot of what the trump organization does once his father is in office, and so the attorney general has accused Eric not just of the symbolic role that Donald trump jr played, but of actually being involved in some of these valuations and what were some examples of that so The most prominent example has to do with state called the seven springs estate, and this place is really kind of fundamental to the erika trump mythology. He worked there. He lived there. It's this beautiful, can a sprawling piece of land in west gesture, which is kind of a chimpanzee place north of new york city, and what he is accused of doing is just a little microcosm of what the company in the trunk argues doing or raw pumping up the value of this place into the hundreds of millions of dollars when there is at least one appraisal. That shows that it was worth thirty million dollars well and

what the attorney general alleged that Eric trump played in inflating the value of seven springs by that huge magnitude. So what they're trying to show is that Eric trump, is the one behind this specific valuation that he was the one who informed the finance department at the trump organization of this value, which Latisha James saying, is an inflated value and they have evidence what we're sir It is a lot of communication between Eric trump and a member of the trump organization financed apartment. That sure makes it look as if he was involved in talking about this very subject, and maybe even telling this financed department, member who is literally requesting the valuation from him. What the number should be. We don't have a smoking gun here. We don't have the moment he told me the evaluation. I told him devaluation, that's not in evidence, but there's enough

to really make it? Look like the attorney general's accusation that Eric trump was involved in this valuation could be true, and what does Eric trump say about all of that circumstantial evidence when he gets on the stand? He refuses to accept the logic of it. He refuses, the ban to it, and, as he's asked more and more about it, he clearly gets frustrated and what he starts to say is look I'm an operator, I'm a construction guy. I dont deal with these little. Can a petty financial details. That's not my role at the company, even if the email suggests that, in fact he might I t probably did deal with these financial details. So how does this all shake out to you watching? In the courtroom, even though our trump is so different, demeanor and his aspect from donald trump junior. I was reminded of this exact same principle. This is not port and even if I was involved with it and if my involvement there. You can see.

Without an answer you can suggested with evidence will ultimately that doesn't matter There's a kind of a tree my word, I know how this works. You clearly doan thing going on here: yeah and that just doesn't necessarily help is case right. So then we get to donald trump himself. Tell us about that testimony. For some reason I had thought donald trump, would be a little bit different on the stand. Then he is at a political rally in an interview because the stakes are really high and in short, he wasn't even a very familiar donald trump. He was outraged. He was prone to giving warm nor unresponsive monologues much as he often doesn't answer to reporters he lashed out at the judge. He flashed now james who was sitting in the court room and it's not just that he's being trop. It's that he's being

from in such a way that really kind of harmful to his overall case he's. Talking about how involved he was with the financial statements that he did in fact asked for values to be changed. He is talking about his desire for his valuations to be higher than their generally perceive big, he's kind of admitting to the various fraud. It sounds like at the centre of a case. Sometimes he's admitting to parts of the fraud or at least to his involvement in them, but even when he's not doing that, his need for the public to know that his properties are incredibly valuable, is on display in so much of his testimony. So we talked earlier about the triplex apartment right, the one where he tripled the value of the triplex. That's right

so it's ten thousand nine hundred and ninety six feet. So at some point, trop has asked a question. Basically, how big is that apartment and he starts out by saying it's eleven thousand feet, which is accurate and thousands where feet that's accurate, but then he says, or twelve thousand thirteen thousand he just starts going up. It was like he was doing exactly what he was accused of doing on the witness stand, while the judge he sort of can't help a grand and exaggerating this real estate perfectly office, that's what it seemed like and it seemed as if so often he was being asked questions that infuriated him. So I'll give you a good example. The judge, as we talked about his already ruled that these values were fragile and trumped should be doing everything he can just get away from these statements. I had nothing to do with them. I don't have an opinion about them

sarah right, but sometimes the attorney general questions just seem calculated to rail him up any can't do that. He can't do that. Distancing cabin wallace, the attorney Animals were ass. You don't agree with the position of the offices of the attorney general that the values are overstated and the financial statements Instead of saying you know, I hope they weren't overstated, but I don't really have anything to do with them trump lashes out at james. I think she's, a political hack, what he says in response to that question. on it, and I can show you how his anger almost trips him up, rather than being very careful on the stand he goes wherever it seems his it takes him. He that fury, I think in the political setting has been useful for him has made brain feel like this. Guy speaks out for me, he's with me, etc. That's not the case here. Anger makes you lose control, it makes you overstep lines and overstepping lines in a court case.

really serious consequences right and, rather than being a delicacy, very strategic trump misses an opportunity to state unequivocally. I don't. Agree with those valuations. Are those valuations might be wrong or, like you said, put some distance between them? his anger overrides what might be a strategic instinct to better serve himself as a defendant. That's The right. When you see someone on the witness stand, you expect strategy, you kind of expect to see in their conduct what their lawyers have told. That appearance there were so many moments on Monday, where we didn't see, Well, we didn't see preparation where we didn't see strategy. It sounds fair to say, credit, from wrong that by the end of this testimony from Eric, doll, junior and donald trump himself. That this case is not

going very well for them, wasn't going very well them the minute they entered the court room, but it sounds like it's not going any better after their testimony. It's hard to imagine that this testimony help them and it's very easy. Imagine little bits and pieces of it showing off in the attorney general closing here's where he said this. Here's where he said that here's donald trump exaggerating that reflects again on this, and it seems to me that it was not helpful to their case and it may have been quite harmful to it. It feels like. We learn something very important in this testimony about former president tromp as a witness and it's what you said, which is that he's kind of heat in cautious, and I have to imagine that that is a fact that prosecutors in all the other cases in which trumpets defending our thinking about they want trump on the stand.

If I were a prosecutor- and I saw what happened on monday- I would absolutely want the former president to testify, in my case The question for future cases is his lawyers advise him to behave differently. Will you listen to them and what they now trying to keep him off the stick, It was so clear on monday that he did not understand the pulse of the court room. What makes it tick if I'm one of trumps criminal lawyer and I see what happened on Monday in two of his criminal laws at least were in the courtroom. I, try hard to keep them off the standards which are not. Thank you very much Of course, thanks. So much for having me the donald, trump's daughter, Ivanka is- tool to testify. Today the trial is expected. To last, for the next few weeks, with a fine, all rolling possible sometime in

Someone will right back. The. Here's what else you need to know who should govern Gaza when this is over, Israel will, before an indefinite period, will have the overall security response. Military, because we ve seen what happens when we don't have it in an interview on tuesday is The prime minister of Benjamin Netanyahu told abc news that Israel would play a major role in overseeing security in Gaza when its ground invasion is completed. When we don't have to go to respond. really. What we have is the eruption of hamas terror on a scale that we couldn't imagine the remarks immediately, evoking

Worries of Israel's original occupation of Gaza, which be in nineteen sixty seven and ended in two thousand five, the unit. it states has strongly opposed to such a ryaku patient, but in the interval, Netanyahu did not specify what his plan for securing gaza would actually look like in practice and democratic can't It's an causes. One big victories on tuesday in off here, elections held in several states in Kentucky the popular democratic governor, Andy Bashir was re elected in a deeply republicans. in ohio, which also leans republican. Voters approved two ballot measures. The first, enshrining abortion rights in the states constitution. The second legal rising marijuana and in Virginia Democrats kept,

in of the state senate and were on the verge of winning control of the house of delegates blocking the states republic governor from trying to restrict abortion. Tidies episode, produced by diana win and living that it was edited by rachel question with help from brendan clinking vote contains original music I deem pal, and was engineered by Alyssa, Jane moxley. Our theme music is binding, one bird and ben of wonderland, the That's it. I'm michael by sea,.