From your times, I'm likeable borrow. This is a daily over the past few days, two of the lawyers who try to help donald from stay in power after losing the twenty twenty election pleaded guilty in georgia, racketeering keys and have a. Read to cooperate with prosecutors against the former president. Today, I calling richard fawcett on why trump's own advisers are now flipping,

it's tuesday october twenty. Fourth, richard of all the court cases against our trump, and there are many of them. You told us from the start that the keys filed against him in george, accusing him of trying to steal the twenty twenty election. There was extremely important, largely because of the nature of the prosecution. Its racketeering case that, its trump as the leader of a criminal conspiracy and the way that these cases work frequently is that, in order to convict the person at the top of a case like this, you tend to need lower level defendants, co conspirators to flip to turn on trump. That's right- and this is what we want

from the beginning which of these nineteen indicted. Co conspirators might end up. Trying to make a deal pleading guilty in agreeing to cooperate with prosecutors in factor former prosecution georgian wines told us that You imagine this multi person, racketeering, conspiracy, indictment that lists nineteen people and imagine it as a kind of carpet that you roll up from the bottom a lotta times. The the most prominent figure in a racketeering indictment will be listed as what prosecutors actually sometimes called dude number one in this case its J trumpets, whose do number one in imagining rolling up these smaller, lower level participants and the alleged scheme food in

pretty sure a lot of pressure on the way up. So there is always a question about who was going to participate, who was going to want to strike a deal? Who was going to feel the pressure, and we started to see an answer to that. Last month we saw a guy flynn. named scott hall he's this georgia bail bondsman, whose very politically connected whose one of these Seemingly almost random characters was not very well known and millions of being indicted. Who was just kind of mixed up in all this but it's really in the last few days that we started to feel the momentum build on behalf of prosecutors with the plea deals struck by two lawyers who are deeply involved in the effort to overturn the election in doubt, trumps favour so tell us about these two lawyers. so the first one to take a plea was sidney. Pow, I think, might be the best known to people who were involved

long on television and elsewhere, win. Don't trump was trying to make me is that the elections had been stolen from him, which it had not even this power is a former federal prosecutor could become a difference, attorney sidney powers, microphones lawyer who joins us. Thank you and we she got on down from radar when she began defending flynn, the former trump administration official. I believe the department of justice is withholding a lot of information, as is all of the people who participated in the complete set up of general Michael, and now we have. She was quite pugnacious good afternoon and thank you very much for coming fast forward to november twenty two after election day, when I finish sidney power, then jenner Ellis will follow me. Miss powell appears at a new

conference with good, actually and others. You're hot more oil is working on this for whither. I guess where this where the senior worse and she is introduced, as a member of this sort of legal dream team for the don't try campaign and its there that she starts laying out some of these rather wild conspiracy theories, what we are really dealing with here and uncovering more by the day, is the interference with our elections here in the united states. The theories that are pretty well known at this point are just sort of beyond preposterous. The dominion voting systems were created venezuela at the direction of Hugo chavez to make sure he never lost an election. They involve venezuela. They involve cuba in China, there office in toronto, a shared with one of the source entities,

involve the investor george Soros Clinton's. They changed a million votes with no problem. She talks about how voting machines flipped millions of votes, from trumped abiden, president tromp won by a landslide. We are going to prove it, and we are going Reclaim the united states of america for the people who vote for freedom, he later shows up at a meeting december? At the white house, extremely raucous meeting, where all kinds of disturbing ideas are discussed. And among them, is the idea of sidney powell being appointed a sort of special counsel to look into these issues of of voting alleged voting fraud and doing something about it right. So, ultimately, what sidney powell does

for in this case. Is that she becomes a spokesperson for and ultimately end adviser, trying to advance these theories of how and why the election was stolen from donald trump and it wasn't just talk. She was trying to guide trump to an outcome that would overturn the election. Yes and according to the indictment she was also involved, in fact, is alleged to have directed and paid for a data breach in the since office in a tiny rural county south of atlanta called coffee, county georgia. This was an effort by mrs pack and others to try to find it might show that MR trump was indeed right, and this data breach became the subject of a number of other criminals

when any charges against that are also listed in this indictment. Ok, so that's powell tells what the second lawyer to turn on trump in this case The second lawyer had a lot less exposure way in a lot of stuff is being fought over. for media and on television. The january sexual war is now we ve got? You covered a lot of the highlights, Bannon giuliani easily? then there's an aim. Even news. Junkies might not know well kenneth jasper it's. A harvard train lawyer by the name of Kenneth chaz grow this the person at the committee identified here this known proton returning them kenneth chess bro right is being original architecture figure like this. Why did you hear anything about that I didn't I yellows out a name that I was familiar with you. You know it's if this is just very bizarre for me, because can

as borough was my law school classmate, but on one idea, I've known for a very long time. He was known as the cheese in law school and he is someone who is really practice very much on his own. for many years. He worked with two hasbro was involved in drafting a number of members in the air it's too, since fleets of pro trump electoral college electors to wash and to allow for a different outcome to the certification of the election. This was something that was not happening fox on cnn the way it was sidney pow, but in some ways it was. Really a more substantial effort to create the legal underpinnings to turn the election and MR trumps favoured right and just to remind everyone how this is gonna work, though logic

What chance, for always doing was that he was trying to make sure that if trump got his way on january, sex, ultimately january seventh and his vice president, my pants refused to certify the election in congress as trump wanted, that there would be an alternate slade of state electors, ready to say that they were behind tromp, even though the popular vote in their states had gone to bind. That's right in his role in setting up these sleeves of alternate lectures was really at the heart of the charges against him in georgia. Ok, so want to both of these lawyers. Power just for ultimately plead guilty to in georgia over the past few days. So it was a very chaotic moment above lawyers, because when you talk to people who ve done this kind of thing before does tell you that a lot of times a plea deal

arranging. It is kind of like when you're trying to sell a car to somebody when somebody's trying to say yeah I'll, take the buick, that's what I'm gonna nail him down right. There, ok you're taking the building and take it with a side walls and Bob Lazo. These pleading came together quickly and they caught many of us and the press corps unawares. Ok, please take a drink right, legal, nay, sidney, catherine powell and I just didn't suddenly had these people showing up in court and entering please. How do you plan to the six council conspiracy to commit intentional interferes with reforms she dealings guilty sidney powell, you, I feel you guilty to a number of counts, of a misdemeanor conspiracy to commit intentional interference with performance of election duties, which is a mouthful. But it was basically misdemeanours related to the fact that she was in

I was in this caper to work with, and elections official in coffee county georgia to steal the data there, as anyone voice threatened, punish you anything in order to enter into this. deeply other than what is your cited in the documents now and a few days later they saw your hair stage of chewing correct legal name, Kenneth John cosgrove, and in the case of kenneth chess brow, how do you plan to count fifteen conspiracy to commit filing fast, acting as an indictment? Never to three s seat, one, eight, nine for seven building. Have you and your chest? Brown pleads guilty to one felony, and that count is conspiracy to commit the filing a false documents, and this is related to the fact that the fake electors slate, the play trample legislate in georgia actually filed with federal officials, their votes

and the document said that this is a certificate of the votes of the twenty twenty electors from georgia. When, of course, it was not our good luck was just figures. Much thank you, so they both ended up pleading few much less serious charges than they were originally charge with, which were a number of values. And what is the penalty? The cost to each of these lawyers of pleading guilty to the charges you just described? All both of em are stand out of prison

them are? Gonna have to do some time on probation pay, various fines, and each of them was told to write a letter of apology to the people of georgia and, as a result of this plea, what kind end, what level of cooperation will power and just probably require to offer this district attorney in georgia in return? For what clearly sounds like pretty modest sentences, theyve both promised to give up doc

since presumably this would include email exchanges, text messages with anyone involved in this case and this alleged conspiracy they've each already recorded a statement with prosecutors. We don't know exactly what's in that statement or those statements rather but you're attempted to assume that it's something that's pretty good for the prosecution, given the fact that these were relatively light sentences they got off with and of course, they have agreed to testify truthfully against any of their former if defended. That doesn't necessarily mean that they will show up in court for those very dramatic moments. Where you're pointing to I identifying your former co defendants who are stolen trial, but it could happen right, quite possibly, they could end up becoming star witnesses against trump who

just so happens to be the leading republican presidential nominee in two thousand twenty four, and it feels richard worth noting that, despite these modest sentences, these plea deals still entail some risk for these lawyers. I mean it's unheard of in trump's universe, for people to publicly turn on him, let alone to turn on him in a court case, and that's because people tend to fear his wrath and the wrath of his supporters, which is real yeah. I think you're right that there could be potentially very steep costs to turning against a very powerful guy, a very powerful, historically rather vindictive guy, but there are also reasons why it probably seemed quite compelling for these people to flip, and these are reasons beyond merely trying to avoid going to prison.

or do right back hi, I'm megan learn the director of photography at the new york times. What can do a lot of different things, it can connect us. It can bring us to places. We ve never been before it can. capture a story in a universal visual language, but one thing that all these photographs have in common is that you know they don't just come out of the ether. We spend a lot of time, anticipating news stories working with the best photographers across the globe. These are photographers who have spent years,

mastering their technical craft developing their skills as visual chroniclers, our world, you know getting certified as a scuba, diver and learning how to shoot, underwater or to document find the change or of tremendous cardiovascular training in order to ski on the slopes next to the limping athletes. This is an effort that takes tons of time and consideration and resources. All of this is possible only because of new york times subscribers, if you're not a subscriber. Yet you can become one at an why times not come slash subscribe, sir richard talk to us about why flipping why pleading guilty ended up? We think seeming so compelling to these two lawyers beyond, as you said there understandable desire to avoid jail time. Will this case in georgia involves a number of lawyers and number of the nineteen arrived

co defendants were, in fact lawyers and you guys have probably heard the joke. The mega in this context stands for making it He's good attorneys. That's been inoperative thing here, heads for sidney, pow, every kind of chess brew. These are people whose personal lives, certainly there professionalized or fully defined by the fact that they are officers of the court that their lawyers the concern about getting hit with a felony of such a type that you will in the losing your ability to practice law has been Huge pressure among a number of these people have nobody wants to come to something. That's gonna have them lose their law licences, and that was a possibility for both of them. It was a possibility

both of them in, and it may well be we're not exactly in a place of work where we can say with clarity. What's gonna happen to these two lawyers and their ability to keep practising law, but by negotiating with prosecutors for a lighter sentence, they ve put themselves in a position where they may actually be able to keep their licences got it. But there is another factor that probably plead into their decision to take a plea- and that is the fact that hanging in for a trial that the judge had told potential jurors was gonna last five months, is just an exceedingly expensive proposition and, like donald trump, these two folks can't turn to fund raising appeal to their political base. and raise the millions that it might have taken for them to pay their lawyers. Rights are ultimately it may not have just come down to the facts of the case it may now,

calm down just to their future as lawyers. It may have also come down to a question of money which is pretty fastening. Ultimately, both Oh and chesbrough you're saying they may have ended up pleading guilty here, so that they don't lose their livelihood and they know and up going bankrupt, Jeremy, the low times you hear this from liberal critics of the criminal justice system. When are we go cases brought against the beginning? Are? its members of a gang through these moments, where these smaller fries. are looking at the same kinds of problems that these very prominent lawyers looking at face. The very long trial and not having the money to pay for adequate council. You know it's. The question is

Does that really constitute the pursuit of justice and, of course, to lawyers with pretty healthy incomes? Aren't the same as some of the folks in a legal system that you're our first to? But your point is that, at the end of the day, these decisions may not be about the questions of weathers. one thinks they can win the case or whether they should put up the fight, but the reality that putting up a serious offence is exceeded, save and intimidating, and sometimes it feels like not really a choice. In this case you knew you, you have a lot of really kind of esoteric questions of constitutional law. The supremacy clause and when its right to charge federal officials in the functioning of their duties, know gonna stuff, really kind of how things are Is it going to be writing law review articles about for decades, if not centuries, but the Hossa is just as a practical matter. A trial is going to happen, is going to cost, five months, the lawyer for these lawyers, the charge exe

are you gonna be able to pay tax at the end of the day? This, of course makes me wonder whether, and if not, why Donald trump has an offer to pay the legal bills for these two lawyers, it would seem like what's in their best interests, here is in his best interests as a co defendants. He knows very well that the legal strategy here is rolling up the carpet and getting to him dude number one. So why isn't he trying to make their financial problems go away? Here? That's a great question. And I don't. We have a lot of insight into the mind of former president from you'd think that finding a way to help some of these people find their defences were, in fact, Open out. Are we really know? Is it a number of these folks involved in this, and I met have had to turn to super creed

means to try to raise the money to pay their legal defences like a fund. Raising a website called gibson go it's kind of a conservative version, go find me there is one very obscure defendant. An illinois after who working through His allies was hoping to receive some funding with a cut of sales from or again maga honey that is actually packaged in a like a honey bear with with trump's head where the the bears head would be unexpected yeah. So it's some. These are serious manifestations of the problem, which is that they need cash to fund their defenses okay. So I want to end by casting us forward just a little bit, as you said at the start of this conversation, this legal strategy from the district attorney here in georgia seems to be working so far, and I wonder if we should then assume that there's a domino effect and that the rest of the co defendants, especially those lower down

the long list watch power and just for a flip and think. Well, I gotta get my deal now and at that becomes a pretty virtuous cycle for the district attorney. So should we expect a series of guilty, please, over the coming many weeks and months, adding up to a very problematic situation for donald trump we are. Waiting and watching. There are a number of people who are probably in a much worse. Finally, Your position then either can a chess, sidney power who just don't have any money at all the possibility of them sitting through a trial that would last many many months and trying to find a way not only to pay attorneys fees but justified, air being be or to find a mode or I will tell the stand for six months in georgia- be just tremendously painful for them economically and in fact, that it could be just virtually impossible

so, although we don't know exactly who might flip next or whether anyone will sit next were certainly watching pretty closely, and if your tromp you're watching very very closely- and I have to think you're league- strategy is starting to adjust to the reality that you're alleged conspirators are becoming your enemies and a courtroom. That's right in, and I think there are still a number of ways in which Donald fronts. Lawyers are seen a way out of this either trying to find a way to maneuver things in such a way that the case never goes to trial here. Based on some constitutional principles may be the case because before the supreme court, before jury and fulton county. Georgia can really rule on on his fate and I think there are unresolved questions that remain in this trial, so them have to do with state of mind with whether or not prosecutors, can successfully show a jury donald trump.

new. He lost the selection and yet pushed his horse. He could to see was the winner in turn, in fact, try to take it anyway We don't really know exactly what some of this new cooperation means for that very central question, but in general terms, none of this is good for donald trump. We have two lawyers who were deeply involved in various elements of the effort to keep him in power. Another talking to prosecutors, No, the Overturn thank you very much. Thank smile the

order. It back here's what else you need on Monday, Israel's military struck hundreds of targets in gaza in one of its biggest, Russia's since its war with Hamas began almost no claims that Such airstrikes have killed more than five thousand palestinians since october seven, when Israel began retaliating for Hamas attack that killed. Fourteen hundred israeli despite the perception that it has really ground. Invasion of Gaza is imminent. The times reports that the binding administration has advised to delay such an offensive that delay

designed to allow for more humanitarian aid to enter gaza and to give Hamas more time to release the hostages that its holding their on night Hamas released two more of those hostages, both elderly women, who had been abducted at a kibbutz in southern israel and The union representing striking american autoworkers, told nearly seven thousand employees at a pickup truck plant in michigan to walk off the job. in a major escalation of its six week. Long strike against a choice, big three automakers, Walk out is especially disruptive because the plant owned by still anxious makes the rim fifteen hundred one of the best selling pickup truck in the country and the strike the union is demanding significantly higher wages

the reinstatement of traditional pensions for retiring workers. Tidies episode was produced. by clear tennis, get her and robs. If go. It was edited by lisa chow contains Regional music, by marrying Lozano india and how and was engineered by Chris. Would our theme music is by Jim one burg and then the handful of wonderland that's for the I'm likeable by sea tomorrow.