They're, not writers, but they help. You should your financial story there, not us. Art up, but their enemy labs create new tools to help keep your information secure, they're, not architects, but they help stronger communities with global expertise and over two centuries of experience. City provides tools, insights and guidance to help businesses thrive there, not just any bank. They are city learn more at city dot, com, slash. We are city from new york times Above all, this is a daily. The stir of how speaker Kevin Mccarthy a few days ago, has demonstrated just how powerful a small group of hard right house republicans have become just how far they will go. In the mean,

ideology and just how deep their grievances today conversation with one of the eight republicans who brought mccarthy down congressman tim burchett of tennessee it's friday. October. Sixth, congressman congressman Oh congressmen, you are muted on your side of this committee. Can you hear me I can hello congressmen

damn I dont believe I'm allowed to call you anything other than congressmen call me damn they don't. As I telecast out all the custodians up here, call me damn cause there. They are the only ones up your work and I believe you're working today, the israel talking to you yeah. So I really want to thank you for making time for us yesterday. It is, I think, no understatement to say been a heck of a week and your world is a heck of a day heck of a day. And I had to make a tough decision and I made it makes me wonder: are people in the republican caucus in the house are talking to you right now. Are you something of a pariah? I've always been something pariah brother. I'm not. I didn't come to wash and intimate friends. What, as I think, we're hinting at here, you're one of the eight house

begins, who made a very momentous decision, and that decision was to vote to oust your leader. How speaker Kevin Mccarthy first found that has happened in the united states history, and I wonder how much that history congressmen weighed on you in the period leading up to the actual vote. I'll tell you what weighed on me is just doing the right thing I advocate. Can I go over the prep, my thought process to where I got to where I, where I voted for their that'd, be okay, yeah, I mean I get. What I want to. I want to make sure people understand what a journey it's been for. You because you started off as a furry I am a supporter of speaker, Mccarthy, you were somebody who voted for him editing times fifteen times during that now agonizing process and and you weren't one of those conservative house republicans who refused or said I'm going to vote present. You were a.

or more definitive, yes over and over again back in january, and yes, the reason I do want you to explain your thinking and your journey is as it. I think. If we can understand your disillusionment with speaker mccarthy, over these last nine months, we can better understand the larger story of what has happened here so tell us how you got from their supporting mccarthy to hear deciding. He could no longer be speaker Yes, your well during that time, if you ve seen a lot of the pictures, I sat beside lie the whole doubts and I met with them because I was it. I am a conservative not angry about it, and I am not with them. So times during mad, and I talk to them about things. I thought were important and they are great and I went to speak for mccarthy early on, and I said these are some things I wanted, and he gave me about her assurance about eighty five percent of what I was interested in what happened. I wanted a fiscal note. I wanted something

say how much something cost. I remember one time I asked it, then our ranking member, now our chair of appropriations, just how much money does this, this piece of legislation cost and she looked at me sid. I don't know next question I said, no, you know and later all whoa you can question. Are you can't do that? You know, and then I never did find out how much that piece of legislation car. So that was something I asked the speaker at any, and they said they would not. You said I should be able to know exactly what the price tag is on a piece of legislation. That was one of your conditions, yeah. Absolutely I I vague. That's unusually all I don't walk into the a supermarket and use trust the cashier to tell you now to charge me whatever they think it costs. Can you just explain why these questions around fiscal transparency? Why they're so import

to you and why they seem to be your primary overriding concern as a member of congress and why you think, they're so important for the people you represent in tennessee, I had the very good fortune of having parents that were a good deal older than most of my buddies parents. My brother and sister now we're both all three of us born very light in their lives, and my parents grew up in the depression and daddy told me a story one time and I always remembered it. He said he watch these kids and they were laughing it? He said I watch this and they ate an apple night through the apple core in the trash can, in some kid came ban done through the trash and eight that apple core and as a young man that made a huge impression on my daddy, the child's need and and prof poverty and poverty, and because of irresponsibility and greed, and things like that. America was thrust into a depression. I think about that and I think about

the average american. You know yes, single moms and my district work into jobs got three kids and We are just throwing money away on all this stuff overseas everywhere and not focusing on keeping our debt down in keeping him. I shut down such my treasure. It sets out what you're saying that the reason you care about this issue and the reason you believe your constituents care about it is a fear that government mismanagement of our nations finances could lead to just a truly awful outcome, whether at something like the great depression nineteen, twenty nine or just kind of garden. Variety problems in people's financial lie not could, but one hundred percent will cause. Nowadays this world depends more. or on americans economy, and it would be a worldwide depression, there would be

blade evaluation of currency. Inflation will be rapid, it made like we did. You know, pre world war, two europe, where you see the people pushing the wheelbarrow down the down the street full of cash trying to buy a loaf of bread. I mean you, you surely know that's right that there's a lot of debate about the causes of yea. I know any one: financial crisis: nineteen, twenty nine- wasn't necessarily about government spending, but you seem quite convinced that too much government spending and not enough accountability around that spending, not enough transparency around. It is a problem. one hundred percent we're out of control and we have no fiscal barometer at all. What what did you just kind of brass tacks? Expect this speaker that you voted for in january to be able to do about that

as you do, that republicans had such a slim majority and that the next chamber, the senate, is control by democratic and the white house. Controlled by a Democrat. What did you reasonably expect given what he told you, but given what also possible that he could do about these questions of transparency and spending unexpectedly, the ship. I expected somebody to take our ideas and our values to the white house to the senate and said: let's mate: let's talk about it, but you're not going to get that way by issuing a press release into I am not going to meet with the president, I'm not going to meet with chuck Schumer. I I just so. You are disappointed when he was not engaging in more vigorous negotiations with the senate leader or the president. That was to you a dereliction the completely, but there again we got a real problem in this country,

We better start addressing it. You know, that's why I reach out. I am I'm friends, Josh gotten hammer from jersey, I'll work with those folks. I talked to him about issues things we're doing the Democrats. Yes, sir honestly did we got a bad gum country to man? This is ridiculous. Maybe it sells memberships day. as in the other party or demonizing somebody, but it in reality, as we need to produce and get to work. I wanna keep pushing on this, because there is a point at which speaker mccarthy does sit down and negotiate with Democrats and with the president, and it feels like when he does and its around these issues. There are always moments where spending is on the table. You lose faith in speaker, mccarthy, and so I want to talk about those moments and, let's start with the deaths, ITALY, where we continue to raise the debt soon,

every year- and you can. Are you aware that just a grand pay, what we owed and two may that just sets yourself up for more economic failure, more spending. But what did you want to become a party to do and that negotiation reduce the debt sailing? Take our views and our values to the table? and they did not do you believe it speaker, mccarthy, never brought your perspective to the negotiation people or just ultimately couldn't prevail in getting enough folks to support it. I just dont understand distinct I dunno. I just know that my views weren't being represented Whoever had his ear by wire. I remembered I had a meeting with his lieutenant because I was a hold out and the press was, I use delano. He up I'm going to meet with him. No great, then a couple before the vote. They set up a meeting. I go to this meeting and on our way,

and our way- and I wait- I waited twenty or thirty minutes. They didn't show up no meeting. The press is waiting for me outside here and I walk out and those very embarrassing to me how you were. You were basically kind of test it's respected, and I get that on the four hundred and thirty fifth most powerful member of congress and there's only four hundred and thirty five offs. But as my number on the baseball team by the way- and then you start with the process yeah? Well, you know how great I am. I really need made Amy on board and need you to help me and acid. Now, I'm not I'm not in and they go to belittling. If

yeah, they thought they're, just gonna roll me and I have not taken me- the woodsheds not gonna work. I don't care, I just said I'm not with you and I walked out, and that was it hm. I'm gonna vote my conscience and that's what I did we're going to continue down this path of runaway spending until we call it into check- and we repeatedly refused to do that, will you you started to get it that you voted against that deal a deal that won many more democratic votes than republican to avert a us government to fall by raising the debt ceiling back in the summer, and I'm hearing you say that

The fault wouldn't be catastrophic to many others. The analysis was that it was going to be catastrophic. So I just want to be sure. I understand it's always catastrophic when, when you're in the the opposition always makes it catastrophic and so we'll never get our fiscal ship in order we're. Never you get it straightened out and we'll just continue down this path of spending and I'm not I'm not going to a party, was there a part of you that in any way wanted to see. I- and I don't want this phrasing to get to loaded but but wanted, The situation arise where perhaps the country did go into a potential default because it would then allow you to make this question of fiscal responsibilities,

bending cuts, transparency, more pressing and prominent to people that was gonna. Give you and, and those like minded more leverage. You may what our drive to cause it to prove my point yet That is what I'm asking now now I wouldn't do that and that's a gutless thing to do. I just felt my conscience, I didn't do my votes on fiscal issues did not put us in this.

Position, yet I'm required to fall on my sword to correct it when it will never correct. If we just keep spending, you know it's the chicken or the egg, so this addiction needs to be broken regardless somebody's going to have to take tough stands, somebody's got to draw attention to it, yet nobody is, but in the end, congressman the deal that Mccarthy signed around the debt limit ends up being a deal that you don't like, because you and a few other conservative house republicans won't sign onto it Therefore, he feels he has no choice but to work with democrats to get a deal that by definition, you're gonna lie given less than the one you are negotiating before no you're ahead with that- and I actually asked leadership of that- on every time to get the people that are how to it in a room and let's talk about it and they never do, and I went to jail

I was up against a wall and make us look bad in the public sector and taken will yield and two made that just creates anna possibly you know everybody up here. They face such and cassette. Chin drop, F bombs on you and say things when you walk by and do they Yeah and you know, and you got bullies in there that get in your face may act real tough. I always like to say they're, the type of guy that their kid threw a rock over the had said and ran home and he had found their mama skirt, because when leadership does holland down they are endorsed in that type of behaviour, and so to me that does not show leadership. That shows cowardice and am in this very childish behaviour. And now at all that type of leadership, our life from a get with us in the beginning, unless worker differences out, but they chose not to do that.

I am hearing you say, you're feeling marginalized, which is kind of interesting, because you all know that many of you, everyone understands the power of your block votes, whether it's the five or eight or ten or more All of you who can be so influential in this moment, and I'm hearing you say that you are not being drawn into the process in a way that makes you feel respected by speaker, Mccarthy? be drawn in the process at all until the end and then night They say we're not willing to work with him. Do you think that do you think that speaker, mccarthy,

concluded somewhere along the way that it's just kind of futile to do that, because he knows what you all stand for, because he knew the terms upon which you want to negotiate, that's hard to say because we never did meet with us. Hmm. I think this brings us if we're kind of sticking with a chronology here to this second big moment that I believe, upset you and tested your faith and speaker Mccarthy, which is the potential government shutdown last week and the dynamics there were very much the same as they were with the debt ceiling and the potential to fall on us debt. You did not like the deal that was being offered within the republican caucus, which then prompted speaker mccarthy, to work with democrats to pass a spending bill that would prevent the government from

cutting down does not feel it got accurate description, no oil. We were not offered the opportunity to work with speaker Mccarthy again again, but I will once again, I think, to the lay listener. May sound a little bit like you're, so frustrated at being sought lined that you're willing to let the government shut down. Well, I'm worried about the pain that that would cause us say: listen, all sincerity. But I day what I'm more worried about is: is the inflation and the lack of purchase power that these people And get the single moms and the teachers and people that buster hump every gay firemen policemen as a result of what of government spending government spending and our economy crashing, and it's just We, when you take in five trillion dollars a year, you spend seven trillion Surely you gotta realise that as they please,

The value of american currency no other way around it. I just want to show the hedge kicked, I'm making sure declare vitally things. A government shut down like a default has consequences. Those consequences are soldiers, paid law enforcement, federal offers, but you're saying in our there they will all get paid be reimbursed as they always are and they do a lot of this to scare people both parties. Do it block up the monuments of the veterans, can't get to him things that are going

cause maximum pain and maximum exposure. But if we enter into a depression, I dare say those people, here's the good faith and will of this country are not going to be able to take care of these people. You're saying something that I think is important to understand, which is that, as with a potential default, a potential government shutdown is not going to cause the big trauma. In your mind, the big economic financial trauma is not changing. Government spending patterns in your parlance, addiction, which creates the real law, the term economic hardships? Yes, sir, because we're not doing its institutional and we're not doing anything to fix it and all the stuff we're doing now is just making it worse. I do

a bit of a pattern here, and I want to write by you and get your read on it. It feels like this is what's happening in both of these cases of the default and the potential shut them that you and some of your colleagues. By being, maybe you would resent this word obstinate yielding whatever it is. You force the government into a tricky, and I know you don't think that those positions are as dramatic as if other people do, but obviously speaker Mccarthy did, and he worries so much that he feels he has no choice but to work with the democrats to prevent those crises. But here's my really in the question in a sense: haven't you engineered the entire situation by being so unwilling to take anything less than what you want to make in regard to his major concerns. Diana was stay in power, marietta

recession a few weeks ago and on saturday- and the last thing he said to me was I really want to be the speaker and to me that that typified pretty much everything. What do we got? There will get the votes. Not what are we principled? What are we going to fight for, and that to me is not leadership. it's just a barometer. You stick your finger up in the air figure which the winds blow on and then you jump out in front of it and take credit for that is not right, a ship that is nothing the rally around, but the differences between Heaven policy in one? I catch a lotta hell for saying this, but she was an effective later and she would get an issue stake in the ground and call people and and say this- is where I'm at. Where are you and then, when she put her proposal out, it would win, and that was because of that style of leadership, and that is something we're not doing, but we know that speaker, Mccarthy was willing to give up this job he loved in the

because he did, and so I do want to ask this question again at an amateur man, any choice here mainly was gone. There was no innocent, but just just hear me on this in the end in these scenarios, is it accurate or not, that you and a few of your colleagues given your crucial given the numbers engineer, these situations that end with the speaker feeling like his only choice. Is to work with now democrats. Now I heard you say that I hear that a law that figure is problem was his refusal to work with his own members. Heating just did meet with us. Fifteen of us get us find out the differences. I think that would be a wise approach

What right back. They're, not writers, but they help you should your financial story there not us art up, but their enemy. Labs, create new tools to help keep your information secure, they're, not architects, but they help stronger communities with global, expertise and over two centuries of experience. City provides tools, insights and guidance to help businesses thrive there, not just any bank, they are city, learn more at city dot, com, slash. We are city, I'm carol, from the new york times right now sitting alone in the press room at the. U s: navy basic guantanamo bay. I probably spent around two thousand nights at this navy base,

I've been coming here since hormone after the nine eleven attacks. I watched them where's prisoners arrive in those organs jumpsuits from far away Afghanistan, some of these prisoners, they still don't have a trial date. It's hot. to get here it's hard to get news from the prison, often I'm the only reporting here, if you. Build a military court in prison out of should the american people. It should not be out of reach of american journalism. We have a duty to keep coming back. explain what's going on here, the new york times takes you to difficult and controversial places. It keeps you informed about unpopular and hard to report developments and that takes Resource you can power that kind of journalism by subscribing to the new york times. So for all these reasons that you clearly described, you have lost your faith in speaker mccarthy, by the beginning of this week, and then your colleague I was out of bed

gates files, this motion to try to remove him as speaker. I'm curious: did you end up speaking to mccarthy before that vote, and did he appeal to you in any way that let you air out all these grievances and all these feelings of being slighted and and not heard out? Did you guys talk about it while he called me yeah. I was on CNN. I think I'm one of the few republicans that goes on cnn on a regular basis, and I said I prayed about it and ask god to to show me what I needed to be doing, and you know he called me that morning in his opening salvo to me, I felt was very condescending. What did he say? Well I'll just sum mentioned something about my prayer hey sense, come back and said he didn't say it s, not the way he men at or whatever, but it doesn't matter you are. You are not pleased with the way he framed your prayers. So he follows, I said something

think about term limits, and where are we on term limits? Can I just make sure I just have the termites are important to you. Term lives are important to me, but they're important to the american public. It polls through the roof and they said well it it died in committee and and then I said, we took six weeks off. We usually just take the month of august off when we took off two weeks in september. I said why'd y'all send us home, I don't set the schedule, you know dad gum it. He speaker, you think. If Pelosi wanted us to be here over the weekend, we'd be an arab awaken. I daresay we would so this is another. In your mind. Failure of leadership complete, he is the speaker, I of the house one of the most powerful positions, not in washington, not in the country but dad gum world to say that he can't say anything there with a schedule he doesn't get bills in committee. To me is is, is not acceptable, and so I I wasn't getting anywhere, and that was it and I thought god was.

Let me maybe not in an audible voice, but in my god or my conscience, he was saying bout, your guidance, because that's what serve me very well, these last few there's that I've been in office indiana and that's the way about it, and I voted that why I wonder content if you think the other seven who voted the same way. You did had similar reasons and similar experiences with the speaker. Thanks to our leadership is a big thing. I think fiscal responsibilities, a big thing and

We just had enough, we just had enough, and so it was time to make a stand, and we did. I want to take you back to the moments after speaker, Mccarthy was ousted. He gave a news conference on how much of it you watch. I watched all of it and he basically said that in his mind, the aid of you who voted to oust him have now created an impossible situation for the next speaker and when he said before that there needs to be an adult in the room. Think he meant something very particular about the ability to keep government open, avoided, to fall, negotiate and sometimes reach deals that are not the best but they're good enough. Did you hear him say when he said that I did listen to me from what you I said I would assume that you know the adult in the room is going to be somebody that tells the truth doesn't pit people against others and that's not what we have. I took it to mean

in congress and invited government you have to compromise. I dont compromise moment. I use. If I gave my word, I give my word. I don't represent the lobbyist up here represent a lot of hard work, invokes back an ace tennessee and an end to them. I'm there how I thank and that's why keep get elected in the big boys just failed to understand. Can you too I for my part in what you want in the next speaker, because there is a sense. You made clear that speaker, Mccarthy told a lot of different people what they wanted to hear and then didn't live up to those commitments, and that makes me wonder: if you'd support a candidate for speaker who said to you can remember to let me be straight with you. I can't do the things that you want in this area and this area and this year another important, but I can't do them, given the math of this congress, so just know that up front will you support me anyway? You survive.

dried up with. May I can handle that a lot easier. I want a strong later though, daddy was in the pacific, his colonel well I don't want a little island called pedal. There was a guy named chesty puller, my daddy. Would it they turn around on belloo, now there'd be colonel, polar right there with them fight it out. and that's the kind of leader I look for. I look for somebody like a carnival or, like my father, you'd, get in the trenches with you and who would who would meet with you not set, Some appointment that you gotta go to the capital in you, wait outside you. While you wait you right and it there compromise involved in that then? Maybe so? Integrity is the question, and I think so I think so. I think that, because of the vote you cast

The next few weeks, are going to be very confusing and uncertain in washington for all kinds of procedural reasons. The house is gonna not be able to do certain things, because there is not a speaker, including passing spending bells. Does that bother? You will go back to work tuesday, and we will act as a speaker on Wednesday, I'm coughed it will have one ballot on the floor and I believe that will pass. This is not a moment, your word. Can a drag out for some time? I dont think it will. just to end this conversation, irishman, let's say this news

you are who you are amenable to and who has the integrity you need for him or her to possess, gets the John there's still a mathematical problem at the heart of what you and this small group of republicans represent. You want something that many other of your colleagues dont want, and many democrats don't want, and so let's say you get that speaker, the one you like are you truly going to be willing to compromise on some of these questions we ve been talking about so that you're not right back where we were at the beginning of this conversation. If I feel like that's figure, workers me in good faith, then you'll compromise depends on spending on fiscal matters. The bands among the deficit spending there

no compromise their marriage, no compromise there. There is no more money. You can't spend money, you don't have. We can't just keep printing money, so that does mean we might be back where we started if we're not going to be fiscally responsible, but I think this next baker will understand that role and if they don't will you vote again to potentially oust another speaker. I vote my conscience. I don't think we're going to make that mistake again, while congress emergent. Thank you very much. We appreciate your time. It's been a pleasure brother. Thank you veer questions. It's been a pleasure for me as well brother. Thank you.

after we spoke with congressmen birch it we reached out to the office of former speaker mccarthy, for comment. There was no response so far at least to house republicans say they will seek to replace mccarthy as speaker representative steve's gullies of louisiana, the house republican majority leader and representative Jim Jordan of ohio, an outspoken ally of former president trump house, republicans, are expected to pick their next leader as early as Wednesday will drive back they're, not riders, but they help you should Your financial story, there, not us

art up, but their enemy labs create new tools to help keep your information secure, they're, not architects, but they help stronger communities with global were teasing over two centuries of experience. City provides tools, insights and guidance to help businesses thrive. There not just any bank, they are city learn more at city dot, com, slash, we are city, here's, what else you need to another day on thursday, a federal court ordered them to use a new congressional map for next year's election. That could leave the state to elect to black representatives for the first time in its history and allow democrats to pick up another house seen in what is expected to be a closely fought battle for control

of congress? The order is the culmination of a two year fight over an effort by Alabama republican lawmakers to dilute the power of black. Voters in order to consolidate republican power, that effort has been deemed illegal by several federal courts. Including the: u s supreme court and in north eastern ukraine, dozens of people were killed when a russian rocket hit a village shop for people had gathered for a funeral. appeared to be one of the deadliest attacks on civilians since the war began, ukraine's president, the looting, there's a landscape condemned the attacks as a deliberate act of terrorism and a quote demonstrably brutal russian crime. Tidies episode was produced point

ass to each other baby olivia in that and summer tomorrow. With help from shannon let it was edited by rachel question and page coward withheld lisa, chow and brendan clinking burke contains original you sick by marrying lozano and will read and was engineered by almost moxley or theme. Music is by Jim Ehrenberg and been landmark of wonderfully special thanks took coral horse, katy edmunds, any corrie and james moors. That's it for daily. I'm likeable bore, see you on Monday. The show is supported better help online therapy. The lights are out it's quiet time to sleep, but your mind is going a mile, a minute stressing about

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