From the new york times, I'm sabrina tavern, he seen in this wait. Yesterday, on the show, we went inside donald trump campaign for precedent to understand how he's trying to turn a mountain of legal trouble into a political advantage. Today we turned to the re election campaign of president bite. I spoke with my colleague red Epstein about why what looks like a record of accomplishment on paper turning out to be so difficult to campaign on twenty january third, red high sabrina

So read yesterday, our esteemed colleague, maggie haber, men was on the show and she was talking about donald trump. Twenty twenty four can paint strategy and fittingly we come to you to talk about what Joe Biden, twenty twenty four strategy will be. Like Biden, of course, has presided over a relatively strong economy. He's passed a bunch of legislation, some of that very sweeping some of than by partisan spite historic levels, partisanship and the presumption of nominee on the other side is facing ninety one felony counts and yet- and I know it's early- but I have to be honest- so far- it's been a little hard to figure out. What binds message actually is so we'd. What is Biden running on or part of buttons problem. Is that a lot of these things that you are to collate that should be strengths for him. frankly are not. There are political weaknesses. He's been trying to sell his record and try

trying to explain to people that their lives are better under him. But the thing that you're seeing is that a lot of these things at by an accomplished he's not able to talk about, because voters don't think that they're selling points. Can you give me an example? Well, the economy is really the biggest one. All The indicators that we have on the economy would tell you that the economy is booming, that things are going great. But if you ask people about how they feel about the economy, they don't feel good about it. People see that prices, still up, they see that they can't buy a house, because the interest rates are high. and so none of that is great for Joe Biden, Joe Biden is determined to reward hard work they spent forty million dollars in battleground states Twelve million jobs have been created, trying to sell the president's economic record, leave Biden, annex vi,

not mix, reinvested in places and people have been forgotten. They ve been envisaged in the net effect of that. So far has not been any great change in the polls. In fact, the poles for Joe Biden have gotten and it seems pretty clear, Joe, your- and I approve this message- that the advertising that they've done has not not really worked. so basically bottom line the economy. Despite all of the economist telling us, it should add up to a strength for Joe Biden in this campaign, has not right what are the other accomplishments aside from the economy that he could be running on, that would potentially be a strength boy. He did pass a bunch of pretty significant pieces of legislation on infrastructure. climate investments and the chips act. All

His laws are spending exorbitant amounts of money all around the country for projects that will build new bridges that will build solar factories. All things that pull very well individually, people say that they want, but you can't snap your fingers and have a new bridge some of these things take years and years to happen and in the meantime, what people see on infrastructure frankly is road construction right and in a lot of these states, you have local officials that are taking credit for projects, that federal legislation is subsidizing, the Joe Biden side and so on a federal money has flowed to georgia and you have the republican governor, brine camp who's running around taken credit for it. There's a bridge between cincinnati in kentucky that the governor of kentucky and mitch. Mcconnell have taken a lot of credit for and so We're not only are these projects, not immediate people, don't see immediate results on it,

but he's competing with local officials to take credit for it read you mention big legislation, and I know that part of what passed in the legislation that our colleagues for writing about a lot. Last year, the inflation reduction act had to do with climate and climate change and kind of leave, creating some of the effects of it

I would imagine that would play pretty well with his base. Can he campaign on that? He has campaigned on that. I traveled with him this summer to a factory in Milwaukee that was making charging stations for electric vehicles. But again, a lot of these projects are just getting off the ground. It's going to take a while for those things to have an impact on people's lived experiences right, okay, so reid, you're, saying essentially that the typical strategy of an incumbent president, you know where you point to the things you've accomplished over your time in office- is not exactly working for Biden for a variety of reasons. But what about pointing to the thing that Biden would argue his presidency kind of represents? You know the sort of larger idea of democracy upholding demo,

erratic norms and protecting them. That seems like a clear way to draw a contrast between himself and former president trump. That would be something his campaign with latch onto right. I mean remember when he ran in two thousand and twenty. He talked about restoring the soul of america and that after january sixth, came imbued with the idea of protecting democracy, but there wasn't anything really forbidden to do on that front. Others talk, so even though the president has talked about democracy and talked about himself as the person upholding We haven't seen that vote cars are racing to back him because of that issue and read what is that? Let's say the polling says that people who are interested in democracy as an issue they're interested in other issues. More usually, I think it's a destructive to look at the mid term. Elections in wisconsin

How democrats attacked this issue when they were running against ron Johnson? Who was a senator, who has been kind of a thought of misinformation who said question the results of the election cast out. what happened on january sixth year, they did not run against him an election denier, more someone who was fine misinformation, because every which way they tested in poles and focus groups. They found that the most effective way of getting people to not vote for him was to talk about his economic record, and not about his stance on democracy or or misinformation, and they ultimately reich RON Johnson one, and so they can have it eight about whether the strategy was right or not, but they had spent a lot of time and had a vested interest in defeating him,

and concluded that democracy was not the best way to do it. That's really interesting that democracy- I guess it's just this abstract thing that doesn't nest. Solely on its own, as a word mean much to people well and what they found in wisconsin was, any voter who cared about democracy. As an issue was already going to vote for the democratic candidate. ok, so democracy not really a thing for swing, voters not an arrow. He can put in his quiver what about the fact that trump is facing multiple indictments, I'm income march. He scheduled to be on trial in federal court right like. is that a strength for Biden mean something he'd want to sell on the campaign trail. This is sort of the trickiest issue for Joe Biden as he's running for reelection, Joe Biden has said from the beginning, That he will not interfere or discuss Donald trump's legal issues Because he ran for president on the?

the idea of restoring the independence of the justice department, and he does not want to back off of that in any way. Despite what trump says on a daily basis where he is blaming by for the prosecution of him. Biden does not want to give that any credence, so he doesn't talk about it. He has instructed his campaign not to talk about it. He's instructed the democratic national committee not to talk about it, and so the biggest organizations that are devoted to reelected Joe Biden, president and his white house have taken a collective vow of silence on the biggest thing concerning donald trump in the next year. In other words, he doesn't want to be seen as having put his thumb on the scale with his justice department, in these federal

Editions of trump right, okay, so you've laid out this list of would be strengths that are functioning really at this point, it's weaknesses for Biden. You know things he wants to talk about, but really can't, which leads me to wonder if his strengths are this week. What about his actual weaknesses? Tell me about those well, if you ask voters about it and we've done polls, I've gone door to door with candidates, and you ask people what do you think of Joe Biden? I have a real science, inevitably the first response is just seems at their eyes. I can't believe he sold the way he walks stiffly. sometimes when he seems not to be able to remember things he's on over to loosen- and I think so- I wouldn't want this guy you're running the show. Every Paul has suggested that it's a big problem and its

The one thing that they can't change in theory they could fix their economic messaging. The economy could get better, but there's nothing they can do about Joe Biden being it one years old right in the way that people view him. Certainly the trunk campaign and republicans will do everything they can to take advantage of you when he, trip during graduation ceremony or fell on the stairs going up the air force one eye people who work for bide live in fear of that happening on a regular basis. So what his campaign doing to combat this age problem, yes, or no Hundred ninety years old, when he has started to make some about it. I know I don't look at all I will no longer hundred three, I believe in the first amendment, not just because my good friend, Jimmy Madison wrote it

He has made jokes about being around with the founding fathers that's kind of funny. It's not too much to ask you what the press, no, that wasn't me. He hasn't like fully leaned into the age, question in a way that that experience is what the country needs which, frankly leaves him vulnerable when he died I have senior moments Everybody has dealt with aging relatives, grandparents parent and seeing how people slow down when they get older and The danger is that people start to see that in him

and wonder whether he's up for the job. So what are they doing? Instead, that, like what's the strategy just not having out there are, so he won't potentially trip like what's gonna happen, what he doesn't do as many events, certainly as brok obama did when was running for reelection his day. are shorter than the president's he doesn't. Do a lot of one. I want interviews with The main stream straight news reporters instead, they have tried to sort of package him in a way online and have people vouch for him in the press. I'm here to tell the truth about the binding harris record and also compare Gavin museum. The governor of California did a debate against fraud answers on fox news, where you some spent much of the debate defending the Biden record and I in ministries the last three years.

mash, your buys in january tonight three point: nine percent. I thought a slate vs stay put, but it's about the united states of america. I thought this guy was running for president united states. It almost sounded like he thought that it was on the rest of the party. Pull Joe Biden over the line as opposed to by doing it himself, usually in a presidential election. It is on the candidate to do that. not necessarily on his surrogates but because of Joe Biden age because his own- popularity is so low in the popularity of many of his servants are so high noon. Others have come to the conclusion that they have to be the ones

to convince voters to vote for Joe Biden almost more than Joe Biden doing it, so we taking all of this together. What could have path? Does that leave Biden in his campaign or Joe Biden has we talked about, is not very popular photos, think he's very old, but the upside for him is it. He appears to have the good fortune of running against donald trump, whose even less popular than he is in politics, like everything else, you have to play to your strengths and its left him to try to make the case to voters that he's better than donald trump. we'll be right back. It's that time of year, when many of us think about how we can give back to our community. This is nick Kristof

opinion columnist for the new york times, and I am proud that for more than a hundred years, the timescale get an annual appeal to raise money for charitable organizations, ideas to work. with readers, help great opportunity and overcome. Jim through highly effective nonprofits Times journalism is fundamentally about vetting the truth in it, case about vetting organizations and Acting some of the best together. We can have an impact this week, be possible without the generosity of our audience. So I hope ill considered donated to the new york times? Communities find this holiday season the times This all administrative costs every penny, you give goes direct to those in need

to learn more go to n y times dot com, slash n Y t fund. Thank you so read you just explained to me all of the things Biden wants to talk about, but can't, and then this thing he doesn't want to talk about his age but kind of has to, and that's a pretty tough needle to thread. How is Biden going to handle this? What his campaign actually going to focus on where the biggest issue for democrats, in this moment is abortion. It is the issue that energizes more democrats to vote than any other issue, and it is the issue that turns more republicans and swing voters to vote for democratic, any other issue. They have seen. The success of running on abortion from mid terms to the wisconsin supreme court election in April to the governors race in kind

key in november and a referendum, on abortion rights in ohio that one fifty seven percent of the vote in a deeply red state, and so one of the big challenges for the Biden campaign. Frankly, for democrats running for congress in the senate will be to make it clear to voters that abortion rights are on the ballot next november, and so we have started to see this from candidates, for the house and senate. It's a little more complicated for Joe Biden, because he has a long and tortured him who was abortion rights here and say the word: abortion with money frequency when he says it at all. Being an eighty year old catholic, it's difficult, in an eighty one year, old catholic who, for much of his career in politics, was not a staunch proponent of abortion

it's up until his last presidential campaign, and so one thing that we have seen from his supporters when they offer him unsolicited advice is that he needs to say the word abortion. More often, they see the power of this issue in their constituencies in their states and they are pressing the white house in public I have had to have Biden, say the word abortion and make his campaign a referendum on abortion rights. Okay, so his campaign wants him to say the word. Abortion moore wants abortion to be kind of a part of his campaign, but what would he actually say about it? Because I get how democrats at the state level would want to talk about it? You know because abortion is playing out at the state level right now, but what's the point of someone running for president talking about it, I mean you know it's not being decided at a federal level for not yet, but it could be, and one thing that we have heard from Democrats is that they

I would like to pass federal legislation codifying the right to an abortion, whether that some sort of rose standard that they could pass into While at a federal level, but at the very least, what they have is scaring people about what republicans would do if they had the white house in control of both chambers of congress, because that seems pretty clear at least what they have said. They would do, Some of that has played out in the republican presidential debates. Lindsey graham, is talked about a fifteen weak ban, the new house, Bigger has talked about a total ban on abortion, and so the f. Trump were to win and have control of congress, its

unreasonable to think that they wouldn't act and abortion ban, and so that is what the Biden campaign and Biden himself have to run against in it's not really difficult to imagine that trump will give them more fodder. On that front. You know he is not terribly disciplined and how he talks about all of these issues, and he is the guy who appointed three of the supreme court justices right who overturned the right to abortion. So there's this quite interesting new political reality. We have now with abortion, where it's no longer ability, is actually an asset in it's been helping democrats a lot up and down the valid and could potentially even help president Biden in his campaign, but you also mentioned trump here, and this contrast with trump talk to me a little bit about that reed. How is that playing into Biden's campaign with a thing that the burden can believes that news

who is convinced voters. This election is not a referendum on whether you like Joe Biden, but it is a choice between Joe Biden and a return to donald try. and everything that went along with it, and this theory is what they're. The theory is that voters may be dissatisfied with Joe Biden and they may not be in love with Joe Biden, and they may not like that- he's eighty one years old, but they elected him in the first place because they really didn't like donald trump and they didn't like the idea. Of having a chaotic presence in the white house. that was in their lives on a daily basis in theirs facebook? feeds in on the news, and you know that trump, if you remember when trump was in the white house, he was the topic of conversations at you know, literally games and p t a meetings and like it was just everywhere completely. It's like it's like that

therefore, was there's a horse in the hospital. Where is it going to be next, the horses in the elevator? What work it was. Everybody was kind of off guard with this idea that there was chaos erupting literally everywhere at every time. in what Biden was was a promise to not be chaotic. you wouldn't you could live your life and go through many days at a time. And without thinking about Joe Biden without thinking about the present right, so so their bedding that this chaotic presence is gonna, come roaring back onto the political scene. And suddenly everybody's going. Remember who this guy is right, but their problem is the trump is much easier to ignore, now that he was when he was in the white house, the cable networks dont care, his rallies live he's. Not act on the major social media platforms. He knew new of him is a little. silo than it was before and so far

the challenge for the Biden campaign frankly, is putting trump back in those people's lives. Donald trump often says were now quote, were now a fairly nation. We're nation in decline, and so we ve seen a conscious shift from the binding campaign and even from brighton himself in turning their campaign into a not trump apparatus. You know believe diversity is our strength, as a nation I believe, as president former president said again yesterday, that immigrants are polluting, polluting our blood, because their bad is it if people can hear tromp saying things that are outrageous, but not so out of character for donald trump trumps as the constitution gave him put the right to do whatever you want is presently coo. It will remind people

of the chaos they did not like when he was the president. Just remember how the pandemic, like businesses, especially har, how my prayers his watch. Women a minority on small businesses, found himself last in line accessing emergency relief. and scare people into voting for Joe Biden and against donald trump? That's pretty interesting, right, they're, actually trying to give more oxygen to this guy that the oxygen was taken away from after january six and he lost the election. I mean trying to put him smack. Dab back into the middle of the political landscape. Is veto in interesting strategy bribing they have concluded that every day, that's a news is about donald trump,

good day for Joe Biden so read. It really seems like a lot of Biden's campaign strategy is just kind of wait and see. He knew it doesn't feel like he's really in the driver's seat. Steering the bus he's just sort of waiting for things to break his way. Like he's playing defense, not offense, and it's kind of puzzling, because you know he's an incumbent with a good economy- he's managed to get some major legislation passed and is running against a potential convicted felon, but he's still performing very poorly. Has the Biden campaign been dealt a particularly tough hand, or is it just uniquely bad messaging. Joe Biden himself has not created messaging right. Right is not barack Obama right. He knew he doesn't draw huge crowds, and draw the sort of intense loyalty of a burning There is even even one

when he was running for president in two thousand and twenty, like there weren't crowds of like many thousands of people coming out to see Joe Biden. He was a consensus candidate, because people thought he could beat donald trump. The trump voters I was interviewing a lot of the time were always talking about that. Look at the stadiums no one's there. No one shows a form right, but a vote for Somebody who is super excited about a candidate counts, the same the vote from somebody who is kind of mare, but thinks he's better than the other guy right and the buying campaign needs out of the latter type of people to come out and vote for him at to stop donald trump, and I think what you're going to see over the course of the year is an in hence amount of messaging to tell people. the stakes of election or to stop donald trump and all that that entails, and so things like abortion and health care.

Democracy in all these other issues will get folded under that umbrella of stopping donald trump And- is what they're going to push and try to impress upon people that that's the choice. election is between a return. Two donald trump and the chaos that he brought And the relative stability, even if people deeply unhappy about it that they have lost your bike. red Thank you. Thank you, sir the Yeah. ooh,

we'll be right back. Here's what you should know today on tuesday The president of harvard university claudine gay, announced her resignation after a series of accusations of plagiarism, scholarly work her tenure begin in July was the shortest of any precedent in the history of the university support for her your presidency, eroded in december after gay, gave what critic saw as Lord the evasive answers at a congressional hearing about I semitism on college campuses. Gay was harvard first black precedent and this

woman to lead the institution, and at least fifty five people were killed in a powerful earthquake that struck western japan. Under your stay, the quake which registered seven point. Six on the japanese seismic contented scale left widespread destruction, nearly sixty thousand people fled their homes and, on tuesday, the authorities for continuing to search people under the rubble. Today's episode was produced by mary, wilson and aircraft. It was edited by devon taylor with help from rachel question and page it contains original music by marian, was on ruined me, mister, diane red and was engineered by Alyssa. Moxley are three music by jim run, burke and Ben lands for of wondering.

That's it for the daily I'm subunits avernus, see tomorrow. I.