Don't miss out on the ngos everyday walking meditation pack over on the ten percent happier up its available for free until august twentieth, if you haven't tried, walking meditation before I highly recommend you check it out. Here is one user had to say I'm quoting here, I'm in my six the year with ten percent. I start and end my day with it. I like their walking meditations to use when I'm out exercising or walking the dog. The longer I Is it the more I learn the nuances and subtleties and refinements of the process? Is life changing that's awesome to hear download the ten percent happier app today, wherever you get your apps and get started for free? from ABC this is the ten percent happier podcast, I'm dyin harris again. We had a good one for you today go. I got a lot of this conversation actually advent since refusing

some of the suggestions from from my guest, in my own mind in the subsequent days and weeks since we first recorded, listen and it's been very, very helpful. anyway, so what am I talking about here will talk about the craving complaining, comparing voice in our heads that can to state the obvious, be the source of incalculable suffering, but here's a provocative is that voice all bad and arthur ways to talk to yourself? That can turn. In her voice into a powerful ally. My guest today has a ton of research back strategies for inner counter programming and he is actually personally done a lot of this research and, as I said earlier, many of these strategies, I have found personally to be deeply helpful ethan cross is a professor in the university of michigan top ranked psychology department and its ross school of business is also the author of a pretty new book called chatter,

The subtitle is the voice in our head. Why it matters and how to harness. It was very flattered when I learned that eaten. Have you the line from one of my books, ten percent happier as one of the ever growing in his book, the line he chose was the voice in my head is an expletive that begins with the letter. A in this conversation we talk about why we have voices in our heads how these voices can either be blessings or curses, in other words, that they are not. is exploiters that begin with a how to access your inner coach, rather than your inner critic, why mental time travel can actually be very helpful, notwithstanding the emphasis in the meditation world on dang in the now the power of rituals and look Charms, I was kind of surprised to hear scientists talk about that. How Changing your outer environment can impact your inner environment. How you can help other people with their chatter,

and how you can use the much maligned social media world for support before we dive in here. A little item of business, as you are about to hear even- and I are gonna talk- a lot about how the voice in our head can actually be a blessing. But of course, this process of harnessing the inner dick and transforming it into an inner coach can be a difficult one. As you may recall, this past january, during our new year's challenge. We ran a whole series of helped. You do just that. We took a fresh look at the admittedly We for some of us somewhat gooey, notion of self love and explain exactly how to meet your self identify failings. if compassion, rather than shame and self loving the sessions from the this challenge our actually now available to subscribers on the ten percent happier app in the courses tab, so go download the app today to check out the sessions and practice d.

coming your inner critic. For more now. On that very same subjects, and- and I should say he adds a lot that we haven't really covered before in tpa world, so he's gonna not a value here here we go With even cross the cross welcome to the show, thanks for having me then looking forward to this conversation for awhile me too,. Why do we have this voice in our heads were? If you can, we blame evolution and then what was evolution? Thinking wonder what was the natural selection thinking today sent that natural selection things at all when the bequeathed us this racing mind we can I point to evolution, but whether we blame evolution or thank it, I think, is an open question and I'd like to suggest that we should thank evolution, not blame it, and so the reason for that is this voice in our hands although we often describe it as a terrible nuisance. Some people have been known to use expletive, even

describing the voice in their head. None of you ve heard of those those folks, but if we take a few steps back and think about what we're talking about when we talk about this voice, we're talking about our ability to asylum, may use language to reflect on our lives and that capacity distinguishes us from all other species and it provides us with a remarkable set of tools and so just to give you a couple of examples of what this voice had allows us to do in the most basic sense. It allows The keeper and negative verbal and nation active in our heads, so you're the grocery store need to remember what you have to buy cheese, cheesecake, yogurt, eggs and projecting here by the way when I have to collate that in my mind, not our lab at silently. That's a voice in my head. Allow me to do that. The voicing our head is part of what we call our are verbal

working memory system, so very basic, stemming the human mind. That is absolutely essential for us to live, the kind of life that we normally do, so that's one thing at the voice in had let us do it also, let us do everything like simulating plan. So before I give a presentation, I often go. A walk around the neighbourhood or by cried and I'll, see me what I'm going say on that stage. The next day in my head I'll, go through all the talking points I'll get to the end and then because I've Maybe some masochistic tendencies I'll even imagine the worst possible thing that a person the audience can ask me and then I ll sing

How am I to respond? That's a voice in my head for me that a billy dissimulate is critical to me doing the kind of job that I hope to do, which is a good one and then finally, the voice and our head helps us makes sense of who we are so one bad things happen and we experienced loss or adversity we often turn our attention inward trying to make sense of what we're going through to try to create a story or a narrative to explain our circumstances and we use the voice in her head to help us do that so I think this voice in our head is really remarkable tool with the coffee that it often can conspire against our. So often we do try to use this tool to help us live our lives, so we experience something bad. We turn our attention and where we try tell a story,

We often gets stuck ruminating and worrying and catastrophes and which are not particularly nice mental states and that's an order bill of when the tool is no longer servant, a swell and the question becomes. What do we do when we find ourselves in those circumstances? So I don't think it is a curse of evolution. I think it's a blessing that can some times morph into a curse and the real choice we face as a species is deferred, How do we harness this tool to make it work for us rather than against us added? It makes a lot of sense. Notwithstanding my prominent use of export is described the voice in my my head. It is a blessing, but, and it can be a curse, do you think

covered as one voice in our heads or that we all have multiple voices different modes we can go into because I know there are schools of thought in psychology that we have many voices might have a jealous voice and angry voices. The generous voice in this is a healthy mind, not some of mental illness. Yes, that's right. I mean this is a healthy mind and a mind in all its glory. It's a flexible mind, that's capable of having us here different messages, so some people. can hear that critical voice and that often what people bemoan- oh, my god, and being so hard and myself, we could also be a coached ourselves. We could be supportive, sometimes You know what I'm struggling with bit of warrior anxiety. I often hear my high school russen coach, give me a directive com by my nickname and tell me I can do it and actually we could actually here and stimulate other people's voices as well. So I can hear my mom or my dad, I mean

it can you I further back to you? Is it easy for you, if you just now, wanna hear your mom say something: can you actually hear her voice in your head? Yeah yeah sets of that state totally normal the device between normal c and abnormal, or healthy, functioning and unless healthy functioning is when we hear different voices and we don't realize that they're coming from our own mind, we think that these voices are being implanted. By other organizations or beings or my mom, is literally in my head. That's when we get to the domain of cycle pathology. But if you can hear differ, voices the angry. The confident among the dead in a welcome to them

the of the human mind in the human condition. So you you talk before about how this voice in our head or as we ve, now sort of complicated. It usefully voices this system, this mind is a blessing, but it can be a curse and it really comes down to. How do you harness the voice or voices? How do you access the inner coach as opposed to the inner credit? Could I think many of us I have quite familiar with a ladder. Well, you know that's the question that I've been I've been interested in that for over twenty years and studying it. For that long and the first message, I think that's important too is, there is no single tool. There were three people and all such nations. What we ve learned is that there are multiple tools that people can use to harness this voice, make it more supportive, less critical and dysfunctional. In my book, I talk about. Twenty six different tools, so there really is quite a variety and one of the thing

that were learning. Is that the people who do best in managing their chatter. Their worry. The rumination are the people who are skilled at using combinations of healthy tools, not just one but combinations like having these these cocktails that serve them. not non alcoholic as cheesy as that sounds. I do need to give the disclaimer, because some people resort to alcohol to to do this, and that is an unhealthy tool. I like to break it down these tools as falling into three, buckets there are, there are things you can do on your own. There are ways of when your relationships with other people and their and I find this last bug- it truly fascinating. There are ways of interacting with your physical space is the world around us that can be useful. Managing the conversation that we're having inside or cells. So we, if we go back to the first bucket. one of the things we know is that when people are experiencing chatter, they often gets stuck in his tunnel.

In these zoom in on the problem. What's happening, We know how my feeling and zoom in so narrowly often becomes difficult for them to think about what they're going through that might make them feel better and so The things we ve learned is that one one antidote to chatter is to help people step back to distance themselves so that they could focus on their experience more objectively to get some mental space from the event, and there are lots of ways that people can do this This idea is certainly prevalent in many forms of mine from us and meditation being that kind of, serving mind, but there. they're, my daddy's that allow people to activate this distancing that don't involve meditation salami. Let me tell you about to these also happen to be two tools that that I personally rely on quite a bit one tool: there's something called this self talk, and what involves doing is silently

coaching ourselves through a problem like we would give advice to another person and to act, we use language to help us. Do that and what I mean by that is use your own name and the second person pronoun you when you're struggling with chatter, to try to work through it already. Then, how are you going to manage the situation One of the things we know from lots of research is that we are much better at advising other people than we are taking our own advice and what distance selling does is it? Is it uses language to shift our perspective to get us to late to ourselves like we were communicating with another person which thrusts us into this coaching mode, but we ve research and it's really amazing when you look at when you ask people what's going through their head when they're trying to work through a problem in the first person I mean they're, saying things

to themselves that they would never say to another person like when you when you're thrust in chatter, and you're you're, going down the dark side, and we would you ever eighty year, your wife or your friend, what you are thinking in saint yourself, that's a question to you. No definitely not what maybe, on my worst day, but now generally, not rightly What say those things when a friend comes to us with a problem we are where support as we are their coach and what we see happening is when you start- using your name? That puts you into that mode of responding. Why does that work? Why does at work so quickly? If you think about when we use names right most of it and that we use names we his name's and second person pronouns when we think about and refer to other people, so the linguistic link between those parts of speech and thinking about others super tight? And so when you use your own name to think about yourself, it puts us into this mode of interacting with ourselves that we were our own friend. That's one thing you

do another really easy thing to do. That is nonetheless, quite effective is something we call temporal distancing or mental time travel. So, if you're really struggling with an acute Stress her think about how you feel about it six months or a year from now? What jumping into that The time travel machine allows us to do is racking eyes at what we're going through as awful as it is. When we think about how things will be future or how they were in the past. That makes it clear we're going through right now as awful as it is its temporary it'll event,

We pass, and that gives us hope, which can also be pretty useful for people or dealing with chatter. We've arrived at that point in the interview where I have a thousand questions that I'll just try to figure out what order to go in, because I want to really unpack some of these practical techniques you just described, but first just in terms of definitions. You've referred to chatter, a couple of times that chatter is a term of art of yours. It's a specific subgroup of the voice in our head. If I understand correctly, am I right about that you've chapter- is the dark side of the inner voice and when it refers to specifically, is getting stuck in a negative thought loop soon in a negative thoughts themselves are something that we want to. Avoid or rid ourselves of negative emotions,

really really useful to be able to experience negative emotion in small doses, their elegantly adapt at fight? If a child can't experience pain, the trial doesn't know to pull their hand away from a stove when their hands being burned. That's not good for them. The ability try a little bit of anxiety, anger, that's useful when it gets not used for malady of his when we perceive separate on these negative experiences over and over and over again? And that's what chatter is in technical terms, when we're experiencing chat about the past determination when its charter about the future, that's often called worry. The constant theme is this looping over and over again, so you talk about a couple ways to knock ourselves: atta chatterer, nudge ourselves at a chat or might be more gentle verb. The four

One was distant self talk. It reminded me of techniques that I've heard described by the researchers and experts in the field of self compassion, including kristin, neff and chris germer, have both been on the show, and they talk about talking to yourself. Like a friend often accompanying it with physical touch, You know for me, it's gotta, put tat my chest and I don't necessarily referred myself as Dan, but I may refer to myself as dude does when describing square with what you are recommending does it does there's a lot of overlap, dude each man, that's my high school nicknames that are sometimes sometimes years, all those give us some psychological space. And they involve using language to help us do that. Now, when we do studies on this, we often put bring people onto

lab and put them in really stressful conditions in and have them try to work through their stress in the first place, and are using their name and then all will get them to say out loud what what's going through their heads. People are in it, coach mode for sure when, they're using their name, but it's not always super soothing in the way that my wife might be soothing to me after I put my foot my mouth at a cocktail party I hate the sun is like get your act together. Stop this nonsense and do your job. You ve done it before so pretty soon I mean I kind of like my wrestling coach rate, and so there is very quality in the tuna. quality to her We coach our ourselves to a problem. I think that an important point to convey we want to be absolutely compassionate with ourselves and treat ourselves with the same kind of dignity that we treat others, but there's very

in how that can manifest, and it doesn't always take the form of it's gonna, be ok at least not none, more studies, but otherwise yeah squares we really well. The touching part touch is a powerful tool, is probably the most primitive tool that that we have for soothing soothing, others right when babies are born into the world, skin diskin contact, we hold them. The studies have low What's the motion on the skin of affection intention is like this kind of into caressing. Motion that characterize it. That activated stress fighting response in the She had an automatic release of various stress fighting chemicals that help alleviate the chatter. I typically think about that, as a form of it is falling into that second bucket of tools right, the people tools, exist and, I think touches one kind of tool that involves relationship. So, if my way It is really struggling with chatter meagre, were to her

putting my hand on her back right. How's it going like that's a useful way of me helping her with her chatter, I haven't thought about in the context of the the self touching which interesting to see if that those findings were generalized there. My sense and of guessing and and christopher Chris can correct me subsequently if they want, but my guess is that they would say. Tough love is still love. And that is totally kosher within their world view to speak. Like coach, you still want the best for you button make me two jar you out of whatever right you win with a little bit more intensity, yeah that ten square as beautifully with this linguistic. To what I think is need about focusing on the linguistic element of it user name, the prone and you hear your favorite nickname. Is it it's a notch that works really quickly that you can rely on in a crash.

Rather than having to adopt the mindset. Alright, let me try to coach myself through this, like our stock in my body, You just use your name, and it instantly gets you to that point. So it's a way of intervening with precision. As soon as the chatter strikes, a guy It's to the point of seeing the chatter for what it is, has chatter and putting you into the coach moat right. Ways are already than you know. People often ask me: hey you study, chatter, have you ever experienced it her paws and like yeah, I've experienced it and what I've told them is You know knowing about these different tools that exist. Doesn't ridge you from experiencing chatters often hard to predict when it's gonna happen. But what long about these different tools does allow you to do is be a lot more deliberate about how you engage with the chatter and for me and others it has allowed, me to nip it in the bud much more quickly than if I just wait.

To stumble on different ways of making myself feel better. If I didn't know about the science based tools, just a bit of a digression here on the on coach mode, coach mode feels good, and it feels good to me internally and externally, and I just wonder whether it may be war now into your second bucket here. But in recent years, I've tried to make it a practice to make myself more available to other people to coach them, to the extent that I've been useful to say you do, occasionally episodical, but but I have noticed that is actually really enlightened self interest because the more my mind is in coach mode: either visa be my own chatter or visa, be somebody else's chatter balmy or the weather internally? Does that it makes sense to use any research to back this up or do you think I'm just pull stuff out of my rear here? No, not at all to findings come to mind. The first is

there's a lot of evidence showing that one of the best ways to make our how's feel better is to make other people feel better so helping others. helps ourselves and serve. Being a good advisor or coach, or you know, friend, to to someone else and really constructively helping them work through their chatter being a mentor and the the science would suggest that shouldn't just help that other person, but it should actually help you as well. because by building them up that has these reverberating effects for yourself so So that's one element of it. There is another element which is there. Some research shows that giving advice to other people helps us with our own problems. Right for this, for very similar reasons that we talk about before distant self talk like Let's say a buddy comes to me. The problem, and here I give them advice, and maybe I'm dealing with a very similar problem at work. Look I just gave them a really objective.

thoughtful response about all the mark of the chatter which would contaminate possibly my own attempt to help myself right, so bike Being the advice to others were still listening to what we're saying to that person, and that's enough. With that being a good adviser to someone else, can feedback to help ourselves. That makes sense, and also I just noticed that when I am in coach mode with other people, I'm less self centered and less stuck in my own story, which generally in my experience, feels better than being stuck in my own story. Well, I think you're talking about distances, listen in the language that I intend to use to describe these things and, if chatters, all about being totally immersed self centered right in the eye on that is my current predicament right. If you can broaden your perspective, lots of ways you could do it talking other people's another way. That should relieve the chatter based on the site,

interesting though Dan and I'd actually like tat. Maybe turn the tables here and ask you a couple more questions about this, because you mention You recently started doing this in the sense of you now. You ve discovered that talking to others in helping them It helps you. Presumably it helps them too. I would think right here, we'd like to theoretically, theoretically yeah. Well, here's what's really interesting to me. There are lots of beliefs about how we can get help from other people and how we can help others and a lot of the site and suggests that many of these common assumptions we have actually help other people or cells, and so to make that concrete. A lot of us think that if you dealing with chatter find someone to talk to and just let it out, venture emotions express it and there's been research which has looked at the consequences of that kind of vending and expression

for how we feel and what we ve learned is venting can be really good for strengthening the friendship bonds between two people makes us feel closer and connected its grey. to know that I can call you and you're willing to to empathically, listen and engage with me and to be clear. That is important to have good friendship, bonds and in one's life. But if all you do is and in a conversation, all you do is express your emotions that doesn't do anything to help us refrain. The way we're thinking about the problem doesn't do anything to provide us with solutions or advice that ultimately help us knit that problem in the bud and so in experiments. People leave these Van sessions and they feel great. but the person they just talk to, but there are few me over what they just talked about it. This is kind of like you just don't feel on the fire. He what happened to you in your last interview, no way, you said that I can't believe it. What is it

No you just reactivating the negativity. So the best kinds of conversations when it comes to chatter actually do two things one. We do. on to vent a little bit. It is important for the other person were talking too to be able to understand what we're going through what happen It has to establish those empathic connections, but a certain point in the conversation they ideally not judah brought in your perspective. To think about that bigger picture. Hay was one crappy interview. You ve done thousands of interviews and succeeded lex,

one's going to be fine or you know, here's what I do when I have a bad interview, so anything to kind of broad. In that perspective, to help the person refrain. That's the the two step process to getting good support from others and on the flipside being a better chatter adviser to other people. In our lives yeah I mean that two step makes a lot of sense to me and the the mistake that I was making. Interestingly- and I don't think this is uncommon- is when I was talking to other people. I would sometimes not let the venting go on long enough and I would rush to solutions because I was trying to alleviate my own pain because the other person we making me anxious- and I didn't want- that's- why we try to put out the fire and make them feel better, but also make myself feel better, and so it seems like what I've learned over time is to really validate whatever is going on for people and make sure that they feel hurt or seen or whatever and then move to okay. Well, can we contextual as this can we think about what the ways to move forward

might be, does exactly right and there's an art to doing this right, because the amount, time, a person needs to vent is going to depend on the person and seemed depend on the nature of the situation that we are experiencing. Chatter, about see you ve gotta, you ve, gotta, feel it out, and so, when I'm talking to people If they're coming to me for support all list, let them go I'll. Ask them questions, hey you, wanna people, I asked you type higher prices, something else her either way. fine by me, and sometimes I just want to keep talking? You know just yes, just listen and and other times you please give me vice. That's why I'm me I'm here for support, so I no one about the structure of this. This to step, process validate and broaden. That gives us a bit of a blueprint for how to enter into these conversations, and then you can adjust based on who you're talking to him what their dealing. With with how long you stay

in each stage. So I think that's one way you can use this science in your life, the other in the other. Important I think take on that comes out of this element of the conversation is knowing about these principles. It allows us to be deliberate about who we are, who we go to for support when it comes to our chatter. I often joke, but actually being serious that there are many people in my life who hullo me dearly, and I love them dearly, and I know this with certainty. Lots of people who who really they want to be there for me, but I know oh that if I go and talk to my chatter, all there do is is read me up because they're gonna keep me in that van

mode and so when I leave that conversation, I'm not going to be experiencing last chatter. In fact, I'm going to be predisposed to experience more, so I'm really deliberate about who I go to for support right. There are like three people I go to in my personal life for people I go to for work related issues and that's like that's my board and I use that board of advisers quite a bit and and in turn use me and so again, it's about being deliberate using the science to be more deliberate about how we try to harness the chatter and our lives. Have memory serves in your book recommend that we all set up boards yeah. I think that what the boards due for companies boards of advice to their youth, if carefully selected individuals who have the expert eastern to guide this company to success and you rely on that board during heart difficult times, and you know, I think that we would all benefit from having a personal board of advisers.

we can rely on when we are experiencing difficult times. Theirs certainly enough data to back up the value that having the right kind of social relationships can have before a health early on you may that we're gonna go through several buckets here when it comes to harnessing and a healthy way. The voices in her head and minimizing chatter, which is the dark side of the voice, and the first bucket, was indeed you'll techniques. The second is techniques it of all. The other people in the third was techniques involves europe the environment around. You weaving even served if our tone the third buck yet, but I ought to go back to the first bucket for a second, because, a while ago you talked about mental time travel. I think it would be interesting for this audience, because a lot of the folks who was in the show you are interested meditation and in meditation there's a way in which you can get the idea that, if you're not in the present moment, always your misbehaving as a meditator

but your argument is the ok sure, yes being in the present moment, which is what mindfulness requires he know being able to step out of whatever thought. Urge emotion is flitting across sheer consciousness right now, yes, that that can have lots of salutary effect, but there are ways to harness the thinking mind to travel forward and backwards that don't involve the pitfall of roma. station or anxiety and really do involve providing a broader context that might knock out of chatter. Please come if I've stepped out of accuracy. There know you you step into accuracy and- and I'm so glad you- you brought this up because being in the moment, can be great, as you suggested, and there's a wealth of data suggesting that mine from us a minute meditations that focus on doing that can have real value, justice,

side. I think of meditation mindfulness as one kind of tool that can be very helpful when it comes to chatter, but there are lots of other tools that exist as well, and I think if we want to give people the best shot at managing their chatter effectively in their life, you really want to give them the whole toolbox right, not just one. So, let's talk about time the human mind did not evolve to always be in the present. We are mental time travellers we spend most of our time, not in fact being in the present back and forth in time- and there are lots of wonderful things at being able to travel in time can do for us. We can. learn from our past. We can save her pass conquests and victories, makes it sound come am a can't hear you know conquering the were away now, like a presentation that, when really well or like my my daughter, like going to those last week in the soccer game like

savouring those moments, like that's a source of enormous satisfaction, right, like there's research, which shows that if you want to really boost people's happiness, haven't focus on experiences. Spend money on experiences go on a great fine vacation with your family and in part the rest for that is unlike a watch whose value quickly wears off think about those amazing moments. You ve had with your family throughout your life and gives you joy so traveling in time I into the past- can be really helpful, going to the future. Likewise, like you know, I'm gonna guess that you often prepare for your interviews with other people. You think really care about what you're gonna say- and you do the kind of simulations that I talked about earlier right- that are in a voice help,

is to thing what, if I say this, and they I mean do do you do that, I will make less than you might yeah now you're making me feel bad, because I done it too much. So I'm a rookie here, but at times you've probably done it. Yeah. Yes, yes, and for conversations too and for conversation, so we're traveling in time we're using our mind in all it's glory, so to speak, what we ve learned is, we can get stuck when we're travelling in time. We get stuck in the past or stuck in the future when were worried or ruminating. One solution to that is to bring us back to the moment, but we also know is that There are ways of just making us better mental time travellers and that's what I think a lot of these tools. Let us do they. Let us go back in time into territories that might otherwise. these sticky right that might otherwise led us to ruminate, but some

these tools, allow us to grapple with those past or future experiences more effectively in ways that don't led us to spiral. So I don't think we should always be in the moment. I think we want to be strategic about. One ran the moment, guy totally great, I think than that, it's hard to be in the moment, and we are not programmed to be in the moment that much in It- and I think that is to our detriment, to what it is worth training up, the skill of being in the moment, because there is some evidence that we are often happier when we are paying attention to what's happening right now, as opposed to stuck in fretful projection or rumination about the past. In the second thing I'd say is, it seems to me, like there's a buddhist analog to what you're describing here about you know. Traveling

back in time. To think about you know when a man scored that lacrosse goal or whatever it is. You know you pass triumphs, pass glories nor your daughter score some goals and a soccer game that that can ease the mind right now. The buddhist analogue is sometimes referred to. As contemplating your see le sea lies an ancient words spelled as I l a in english and its basically means ethical conduct, so contemplating you're sila something a teacher, a buddhist. It might tell you to do meaning thinking about the good things you ve done. That is not being in the moment, that is using mental time, travel to savour your capacity to not be a schmuck and I don't do that enough, because I can easily run a story about what a rotten person I am have been running it for a long time and it can land for some people as either solve cystic or like contemplating you're sealer.

I haven't done anything good. This is the kind be some sort of punishment, but in fact, I think there's a lot to recommend this technique. Anyway, I said a lot. There does does any of that land with you yeah. I think you know what you're describing is the nuance that exists in this philosophy and many of these eastern philosophical traditions that, It is sometimes lost in its translation for mass consumption. When I talk to people in the buddhist philosophical worlder, east and philosophical world, the ideas, talking about, aren't, are typically thought of as heretical, but instead very much compatible with these traditions the message is often conveyed to people in, society is being the moment all the time, and that is a gross oversimplification. I think of these very sophisticated practices which have multiple components to them.

As well. None of what you're saying is heretical to me at least yeah. Well, that's good. That's good keeps the conversation a little bit more pleasant, One other thing just like a general framework that that I often use when thinking about how to help people. foreigners their mind is less work with the machine. Not again you know the mind was set up to travel in time. Re served as well. figure out how to make us better at doing that rather than work entirely against, which I do think if you told someone to always be in the moment, first of all is impossible. Maybe if you ve gotta, I forget the terms my consciousness or you know totally buddha level. On my mind, it's possible I've met anyone who is always in the moment, although I do know some children,

were always at the moment. Some doesn't do much for them or their here. I've got some cats are always in the momentary, yes, but he usually involve scooting across the carpet. But you just said it: you ve got a cat It's always in a moment right. We're, not cats, even though I might get more love. If I Is it catches people and I found and love tat, sometimes seemingly more than me, but we're not we're not build to be the moment and that's what allows us to build spaceships rate and

and rovers on mars strike forward thinking much more of a conversation with Ethan cross right after this, we all have tasks we'd like to avoid like mailing and shipping. It takes time lugging all those letters and packages to the post office. That's why you should try stamps dot com for twenty five years stamps dot com has made mailing and shipping easy. You get all the services of the post office right on your computer, any time no traffic, no waiting, no hassle, plus you save money with discounts up to eighty four percent. On: u s p s and u p s with stamps dot com. All you need is a computer and printer print stamps print shipping labels and if you sell products online stamps dot com connects with every major marketplace and shopping cart. So you can spend less time on shipping and more time on your business, get started with stamps. Dot com today sign up with promo

code programme for a special offer. That includes a forward trial, plus postage and a digital scale just go to stamp out com and enter code programme hi, I'm lindsey, graham the host of wonders, podcast american scandal. We bring to light some the biggest controversies in. U S, history, events that have shaped who we are as a country and they continue to define the american experience american scandal, tells Marcie stories about american politics, like the breaking at the Watergate hotel, an event that led to the downfall of a president and raise questions about the future of and democracy, we go behind the scenes. Looking devastating financial crimes like the fraud committed, it ends and Bernie made offs pansies came, and we tell stories of complicated public figures like edward Snowden and monica lewinsky people who found themselves thrust into the spotlight and who spurred debates about

the future of the country follow american scandal. Wherever you get your podcasts, you can listen ad free on the amazon, music or wander iap, so were sloshing around still in bucket number one of techniques that an individual could use to nudge oneself out of chatter, and so so, let's stay here for a second, there are a few others on your list. Another is to reframe your experience as a challenge. What's what what does that look like? So typically, when you put a person in a situation involving the potential for social stress right anxiety, we ask ourselves two kinds of questions, what's required of me, and can I do it? If you ask some of those questions. We do it automatically and you say no not possible that illicit, what we call a threat response that has a biological manifestation, your heart start beating blood

it really fast and your vascular cheerier arteries and remains they start constricting so more blood going into a smaller space, not good for the ratio of your body and it elicits all sorts of ways of thinking about your circumstances that are counterproductive. And and destructive, like. Oh, my god, I'm never going to be able to do this. You saw in her critic mode and so forth. You can take the same person and the same situate you know- and you can have an answer- those questions differently right, what's required of me? Can I do it now? I can do this. People who, who generate those kinds of recall those appraisals of the situations therein. We call that a challenge response. happens when you're in a challenge mode, your heart starts beating blood justice fast, but your arteries relaxing so there's more room for the blood to flop. You perform had or under stress, and you feel better, and so it's a slight

which, in how your framing the situation that can make a huge difference, and it's not totally unrelated to what we talk about before the coaching yourself. Like your friend, I give you an example. A couple of weeks ago I headed You do reasonably high stakes presentation for me and organizers. I Emily was like. I was a subject in my own experiment. They kept on changing the rules on me, one minute, one minute, it was record this in advance, then man is due at live. No, we want you to do it in advance and inner they kept on switching like four times sing. I know it's like t minus thirty minutes, I'm so much of what I've gotta do and in ice started going a little bit into chatter mode. Oh, my god! This is crazy. not even sat up, and then I stepped back Ethan you eve literally given power. because to a thousand presentations,

You ve never stood what're, you gonna do it. It basically put me in that challenge mode and the press nation. As far as I know, when pretty well, so we often help other people right. We act as an agent that helps other people refrain their circumstances. They come to us. in threat mode, and we give them the advice to flip the switch and put them into challenge mode, but we can do that for ourselves as well. It's almost likes that the practice of psychological jujitsu, like very, very subtle, shifts in our thinking about things that do change our perspective in ways that can really be quite constructive, and so sometimes and infrared mode, and then I make the conscious effort to switch inter challenge road. So do it for myself and then because sometimes I wanna like double dosage of challenge I'll call a buddy and who I know will also help me put me into chancellor and then there.

These compounding effects that we see happen when you start activating multiple tools from your toolbox. Let me just keep going in your toolbox here in and the first bucket of individual practices a list I read in a rowan and you can pick all them or pick one of them, but these I found these just a little bit surprising. One is to write expressively at the other, is to clutch a lucky our more engage in a superstition and in the final one, is to perform a ritual yeah so but hold forth. Please, yes, rituals are fascinating. Our cultures have been giving us rituals likely, since we ve been a part of a culture to deal with adversely he think about when people die. our institutions are cultural institutions. They give us rituals to manage that adversity right, so the kinds of mourning periods and practices that often differ quite a bit, but nonetheless help people feel good. Many

people reflexively turn to engaging in their own idiosyncratic rituals when their under stress there, studies of looking at people who are in war conditions, and you see elevations of agent in rituals when you're under threat of attack. So what's going on what is a science have to say the things we know about. Chatter is that when you are experiencing it at all, and feels that you don't have control over your circumstances. Like our, mine is controlling ass, its controlling us, ways that we don't like we're feeling bad. We can't stop thinking this way and that's really disorienting what we ve learned is you can compensate for that experience of a lack of control by exerting control on your surroundings, as it is to some extent bleeds into our third bucket two of our environment, but

what a ritual is a ritual is a rigid sequence of behaviors. You do at the exact same way every single time. It's a very structured. control progression, raffi a doll he's been known engage in these rituals on the tennis court before every serve and he doesn't really wacky elaborate ones like he'll like before, serve he'll. Take his hair and my behind his ear and then pick his watch out of his, but a few times and then about civil, always exactly the same way And when asked why he does it, he says I age in these kinds of rituals, to provide me with the order in my head that I'm missing and so sore ritual can be quite effective for helping people a chat or now there is. Course a coffee at here you don't wanna, take it to an extreme as

sometimes down with certain forms of anxiety like obsessive compulsive disorder, but rituals in and the appropriate dosage could be quite helpful. I have developed a little ritual that I do this all check list in my mind, with everything am I, in the thirty seconds before I anchor good morning, america as a little cheesy, but these kind of three ps preparation and others have done my research and I have I have I checked all the scripts. So I know what I'm about to say. Presentation is my tie straight and presence. Meaning can I drop all of those concerns and just react to what is happening now, so I can be spontaneous with my co host sore. I mean viewing, and I found that just running through that very quickly. Right before I go on the heirs really really awful Have my own little personal ritual than I do We now right before I give her presentation as well. I can say the same thing to myself every time and it really. It really helps me it's a way of

essentially regulating what's happening inside your head by by doing something typically on the outside by something very rigid and structured the same way each time that gives us a sense of control and and human beings are just we're thirsty for control. We like things to be ordered and untidy, unpredictable and rituals. Give us so that's one way that a ritual can help us dna. Asked about lucky charms, also so, what's going on over there in a lucky charms, what we're dealing with their from the size Point of view is, is the placebo effect, the power of expectation, Essentially, what we ve learned is that if you believe something is going to make, you feel better that activate. set of psychological and neural processes that often bring that I'll come to fruition. There's a ton of data on the benefits of placebos.

People are suffering from mild to moderate forms of depression, if you give them sugar pill- and you tell them hey trust me: I've been seeing patients for a really long time. You take this pill, it's gonna make you feel better, just make sure you take it twice a day every day, people who believe that message end up feeling better overtime and when you, and go to lucky charms with things like crystals, what I think those objects are doing is their capitalizing on on the power of the placebo to effect change in people's lives. There is one thing to keep in mind when it comes to placebos. On the one hand, I think it's a remark. testament to the power of the mind to control ourselves, but we can also do better than placebo those because there are a lot of practices out there that don't really have any active ingredients right, there's no sign if explanation for why they work, but they are promoted as being able to help people

lot of people who engage in those practices, often report feeling better and that I think, is an example of a giant placebo ride your engaging with the person nor institution. Will you really trust and believe, and because you into the message, whatever it is, your taking or doing you think that that's making you feel better, so it may be, but not for the reasons you think it is what about writing. Exe Excessively writing. Expressively can be, can be really great. I think that is another kind of distancing tool. When you write about your deepest thoughts and feelings, your essentially becoming a character in a story you're thinking about yourself or someone else, and that It's a lot easier for us to create the story there. You know. You really has a beginning middle and that an end and the end is really critical right because which There is often defined, as is a lack of an end it just getting stuck in this cynical, nature of thinking where you just

bowling around negativity. But when you write about something negative, that's happened to you and create that story. That often gives us closure, which allows us to move on. The writing of memoirs has been real. Helpful to me. It helped me understand things I didn't understand about my own life about concepts are intriguing to me. It puts it of order on what's can seem like just a morass of events over the course of years, and I know that journaling is helpful, for a lot of you is one interesting little table through their takes us back to language and it rather than to writing an and making meaning there's a way that you can use the word you to refer to people in general. We find this really useful for helping people make meaning in their life in ways that help with chatter, and once I point this out, I suspect you'll see it all over the place, because I do once we started studying setting. So when you get a person

politicians whose done something bad and is doing an interview about reflecting on it and or an athlete screwed up in his dear posts game in the law, I'm doing an air of you. You often hear them say things like when you, when you this a shot. You don't know what to do. You just gotta go on if you stop and think about what they just says, little puzzled right there using the word you a word. We typically used refer to other people rising, firmly pointing the they using to refer their own flop right when you screw up, what are you gonna do Call this the universal you and it's another way that we use language to make, meaning it gives us some space It says it's not about me. This is about the world. effectively when you use that word you in that way, using when anyone, mrs a shot. Anyone would feel this way at and there's a real cool,

for that? Comes from normalizing your experience in that way- and you often see this happening over the course of express a writing. So people start off in I'm owed and then, as they build their stories, they shift in for into their experiences in those universal terms and so it was another little sidebar, geeky sidebar, but there's a tool there that people can nonetheless use yet to normalise. So, let's, let's go into the second bucket. Now there are a few other tools here that are more collective and individual. We talked about rituals, but you say that we can perform rituals with other people. Does that kind of supercharged the whole thing yeah there's a meal and that's the thought and were still doing research on this. But the thought is that communal element of doing a ritual with someone else can import supercharged that process by eliciting a sense of of are so the feeling of awe.

This is an emotion we experience when we're in the presence of something vast, though we have trouble explaining for me My last I experience was watching the mars rover land on mars it blows my mind. I do not and how we figured out how to build this suv embedded in a spaceship blasted across space like we're talking, interplanetary travel This is mine blowing to me within land it with a helicopter and project images back. My simple mine can contemplate how we figured out how to do that and what we know happens when people experience, or at least what we call a shrinking of the south when you're contemplating something vast and indescribable like interplanetary travel that makes you in your own concerns feel a little bit smaller and it reduces how immersed we are in our own chat,

in ways that can be really helpful and see. You often get these experiences of all when people are in communal settings, so doing a ritual lots of other people activate those feelings in ways that are helpful rituals there, a type of cocktail multiple ways that they can benefit us in giving us a sense of. There is one eyes another the fact that there also often attention we demanding is a third way they work. So rituals are and complicated and to execute them. You ve gotta, divert your attention away from the chatter and onto the actual ritual, and that can be helpful to you talk in the book about so Well, media. My understanding is you kind of talk about it as a double edged sword? I think most of us ill on the show. We talk about the unpleasant edge of the social media sword, but you also say there are ways to whose social media that can help with your chatter. That's right. I started doing

research on social media in our lab about almost fifteen years ago and most of our early work just pointed out the negative consequences of doing so. For our chatter or you, log into instagram or or facebook You see these wonderful experiences of your peers and friends, and you feel let your own life and then you continue to think about how much better there These are, then our own, not good, but what we ve learned is that social meat, It's a new environment and environments are good or bad perceval views like the physical world as a counterpoint There are ways of navigating the physical world that could be very harmful for us right. You got the wrong neighbourhoods and say a wrong things too. On people big big trouble, few go to other places and talk to other people in different ways. You can really benefit. Writer really depends on how you navigate the space, and I think the same is true for social media when it comes to chatter, their study.

Which show that social media provides us with opportunities to get support. Far chatter, to get the kind of chatter advice that we simply cannot get in the offline world right by putting out a request for help, you can have thousands of people come to you. First systems are hundreds or even tens right. That's often more than we can get in the physical world, if we ve gotta wait to find someone to talk to so the opportunities to get support via social media are really quite remarkable. In the book I tell the story of dan savage in that it gets better movement. This was a movement several years ago, where you hadn't many many young teens who were

drug dealing with their l, gb tiki identity right, they went on to social media and there were message is being promoted by lots of people. If it gets better, people will tell their stores and other people would try men like stick it out. It gets better, it will get better and that seem to have lots and lots of people, and so I think there is enormous value that social media can have. The big problem is that, up until now, Suddenly, we haven't really had a playbook for how to navigate from media, we get a playbook for how to navigate our fears, world very early on in our lives? It's called socialization right. Our parents teach us how to navigate the world here, so you talk to someone, you say please and thank you you don't say this to other people and the socialization messages are then reinforced by by the schools we go. You and the organisations we blocked rights were constantly get.

information from a young age about how to navigate the world successfully, but Social media so new and constantly changing that we haven't really have the time to develop that playbook rights ahead socialize your kids into using facebook, an interim and twitter effectively the mess. I often hear, as I tell them, I can't use it right. That's a pre blunt intervention tool, so the hope is that as we learn more about what the healthy versus harmful ways of using technologies are. We can then use information to be much more strictly.

chick, about how we navigate social media has not gone away. So it sounds like the headline thumbnail version of what you're describing for healthy social media usage as it pertains to chatter would be unhealthy, is passive, formal inducing instagram, scrolling or passive doom scrolling on twitter healthy, would be intentionally seeking out support or intentionally fighting support to those who are seeking support. Yeah you pretty much now that I'm I'm, I threw in cyber bullying and trolling into the negative bucket to but we're quibbling there. Now I sound like worthy additions to the negative buckingham indicative buckets. Let let's talk more about the third bucket of the ex for managing our own chatter? We ve gotta dipped, ended his bucket a little bit, but can you just describe what what you're talking about in this bucket generally them will get a little more specific from there?

yeah we're talking about ways of regulating the conversations that we have on the inside by doing things in the external world the world around us, so engaging with our physical spaces in specific ways that have implications for our experience of chatter, and there are a couple of things that people can do and we have touched on them already. One is organizing and tidy up, but when I found myself experiencing blips of chatter when working on the boat, I would start putting everything away and clean up my office and I go into the kitchen and I wash the dishes and I scrub down the island and put everything very nice neatly away, and I like to joke that at one point, I used to think that my wife was hoping that I would experience of chad when it was gone. Pretty well could she was so happy with without good the house. Look. So many people do this when their stressed out, when their experts in china

the organised and what the research shows is that this actually serves of regulatory function, and it does so through that same pathway that rituals do right, you're ordering your surroundings, and that gives you a cent self control like I have control over what is going on in my physical world that enhances this. This sense, control that we know is often lacking when we're experiencing chatter. So again, that's one very simple, easy thing you can do another tool that involves the environment involves increasing our exposure to green spaces. There's been a talk of work on this, and as anyone who is experienced, chatter knows it can be all consuming right. All of your attention is focused on the thing you ruminating a worrying about.

And that can be really problematic when it comes to our lives, because we need our attention to do things like our jobs or be good listeners to our partners and kids and so forth. Your attention is on your chatter and not on those things. Big problems ensue the way nature exposure, green space exposure factors into all this is we ve learned at when you go for a walk in a safe green space, I always feel the need to say safe, because where I grew up in brooklyn parks were not safe, so that was actually had the opposite association. You gotta be vigilant for getting mugged, but if you find a park nearby or a tree lined street that is safe and you can let your guard down what happens is our attention,

gently drifts onto the very interesting natural surroundings, the leaves the flowers, the hedges and those interesting surroundings, either the noises of nature, the crickets chirping at night. Our attention is grasp. those objects, but in a very gentle way, right with a heart. That's interesting, that allows us to essentially recharge our attention. That was previously depleted from all the chatter and interestingly, there's research, which shows that, even if you can't get out in nature like watching him the of a natural like them. You know one of these natural movies that are immersive can be really useful to so so that's one way that nature can help the other way that nature helps is by providing an opportunity to experience all and a lot of the triggers that we have

four experiencing are are found in nature, so amazing, son, sadder, looking at your age, It's been here for hundreds of years and whether all these storm for the beauty of these flowers, and so a lot of there are a lot of our triggers waiting to to be activated. This been a great conversation. I've learned a lot and rarely been helpful. Did I miss anything that I failed to take us where I should have there's only one other tidbits that we might want to take a hundred and twenty second detour to hit what we talked about earlier involving the two steps of getting help when we get with chatter, finding someone who can validate and then broaden your perspective that pertains to situations in which a person is explicitly coming to you for support, like they want help with their chatter. There are lots of

instances in which we see people. We know and love who are struggling with chatter, but they I didn't necessarily asked us for help and the question is: is: do you volunteer it or do you do nothing? Research shows that if you volunteer support in those circumstances, just get ready for what might happen after you do, because that can off elicit a defensive reaction from other people, and this is something that is very familiar to to parents. I've got two young kids, and sometimes I don't follow the science, and I am a human, forgive me and like I'll see, my daughter, like struggling with her homework log over and he let me let me show you how to do this. Like I teach for know, I teach I know to do this stuff and like instantly, it's diet. for. How did I think I know how to do this

Essentially what happens there, and you see this happening in lots of different situation between partners in older parents and kids. When advice is volunteered without being asked for it can threaten the persons the self efficacy. The idea that we are capable of doing things on our own and that can create tension and social relationships. So the answer is not to just don't help at all. Instead, the answer is to find ways. helping in what I call invisibly or in a kind of outside of awareness way. There are lots of ways we could do that when people are experiencing chatter. If my wife's particularly stressed about workin and other things doing things is simple, as alleviating the burden on her plate, taking care of dinner, picking up the dry cleaning doing things to just make her life a little bit easier. that's a wet without being asked, that's a way of helping her invisibly it there,

someone struggling in on my team with their presentation skills rather then contact at invite. You really need to up your game here. Here's a couple It's back that can I might send a note to the entire group: hey here's! A couple bucks I just came across really helpful. Baby, let's have a lobbying to discuss them getting them the information, but without shame in a spotlight on one person's vulnerability. The final thing you can do who is bringing full circle, you could touch right if it's, the right individual on is appropriate in the context of its a partner or a child. Another way of helping invisibly is to put that on their shoulder, give them a hug give them a kiss, she's he is that sounds. There is hard core science behind the value of affection attach as a tool to help you the chatter and that's another way of doing it, invisibly listening to that.

conversation with your daughter. I was reminded of so I've a six year old son and he was out, did playing with his mother. The other day- and I guess you being irritating to him- and he said the mommy you're being so annoying. I almost feel like I'm talking to daddy. We should have a chatter support. Every just unity in our key, exactly earns just about right before we go. Can europe everybody, the name of the book and any other sources of information or all things even cross sure the book is called shatter the voice in our head. Why it matters and how to harness it, and you can find tons of information about the book plowed the ideas we talked about it, me and my website, w w w dot eaten cross with a k dotcom. Thank you very much. A man great job.

yeah that was super fun and really really great conversation. So, thanks for having me pleasure, big thanks to Ethan, really enjoyed meeting him the show is made by Samuel Johns, DJ, cashmere, Kim bike Maria, were tell Jen plant and we get engineering from ultraviolet audio. As always a hearty salute to my abc news, comrades, rang kessler, unjust co hand, also on Wednesday. We will come back with another episode. A prime members. You can listen to ten percent happier early. And ad free on amazon music down. Though the amazon music app today or you can listen early and ad free with one re plus in apple podcasts before you go. Do us a solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at wonder: ea dot com ash servant academy is a new scripted podcast, the fellows aver richards, a brilliant scholarship student attending

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