This is ten percent happier podcast I'm dyin harris every so often here on the show you may know, we re run a favorite episode. That stuff but for us for one reason or another today we're revisiting my interview with a remarkable person who everybody should know about. Her insights on work are as relevant today as a when this interview first was posted on this feed. My guest is eliseo Mendez, who is extraordinarily poised, seemingly confident, undeniably successful, she's a tv news anchor currently on MSNBC before that she was on vice abc news: fusion, bustling pbs she's, a mother of two with a harvard degree she's the creator and host of the let tee not to let tee

podcast she was named broadcast journalism, new gladiator by EL magazine, ms millennial, by the washington post and a content queen by marie clare. And her. Dad is a? U s. Senator so in the service at least, she's got her stuff together and yet, as you were, gonna hear, she has struggled for a long time with a specific kind of insecurity at work. She was weighed down by over thinking and excess focus on what other people think of her. When I first conducted this interview, Elisa had just written a book called the like ability, trap, which is all about- and I quote her exactly here: it's all about this dynamic in the workplace, where women are constantly doing this dance of being told there too much or not enough, and they need to modulate. She calls it the goldilocks conundrum, where either you're too cold or you.

too hot, and it's never just right quick note here, if you're a dude and you're listening to this and you're thinking, okay, well, there's not going to be anything here for me, let me just say that if you're married to a woman or if you have a daughter or a mother, who's in the workplace- and you want to play a useful role- this is an interview you should hear and if you find that the psychology that Alicia is describing describes how you are in the world, she's got lots of interesting strategies that she has employed personally and you're going to hear all about them in this discussion. In the conversation we talk about the aforementioned likeability trap, which is actually a series of likability traps. As you'll hear her explain, we talk about the structural imbalance in feedback for women and men in the workplace, which got me thinking about the massive difference in the kind of feedback I used to get when I was a male news anchor, as opposed to my

female colleagues, and we talk about things for men to consider as they engage with women in the workplace. There's a lot here and she is as you're about to hear just a really sharp mind and a great storyteller. Just a quick reminder. We recorded this back in two thousand and nineteen pre pandemics or you're, going to hear me reference my work on good morning, america, where I no longer work, Don't miss out on the enjoy everyday walking meditation pack over on the ten percent happier up its available for free until august twenty If you haven't tried walking meditation on the app before I highly recommend you check it out here, is what one user had to say. I'm quoting here, I'm in my sixty year with ten percent. I start and end my day with it. I like their walking meditations to use when I'm out exercising walking the dog the long I use it the more I learn, the nuances and subtleties and refinements of the process is life changing that's awesome to hear,

although the ten percent, happier after day wherever you get your apps and get started for free. They for doing this things, and I had to see you tell me your personal story of why you got so interested in this issue of liability, I am a very sensitive person, so I am produced very naturally predisposed to carrying about other people. How I make other people feel that's, probably because I am a cancer and I m f J. I'm very iron after yet introverted intuitive feel our judges, one of those myers briggs things better. But if you say it to someone who does that type of organizational psychology, their music answer, you run the risk of what I mean is that when I was young and reading the back of seventeen magazine- and they will tell me my astrological cited always sort of added up hard on the outside soft on the inside and and then

I am a woman who grew up in america and across cultures, and certainly in our culture, we socialize crawls, who become women, caring about others, feelings and what others think of them. There's value in that right like. I think it is good for us to be aware of others. The challenges when that becomes a hyper focus that dominates the choices you make in your life. If you add, then, on top of all of that, I'm a public person and I think more and more of us- are public people these days, meaning you, if you have a twitter account and an instagram account, that's public facing then you're a public person, and so I. Getting not just the feedback that you'd get as a worker in an office, but also all the feedback you got as a person who appears on people's televisions and smartphones, What I wore, what I look like what I was saying and how other people felt about that I felt a need for myself to put our own.

texan order. I originally imagined the liability, try to be one of these, like a prey, love books right. Go on some incredible life journey and come back knock, erin about whether or not other people like trees, which was sounds way more fun and the book that I actually wrote, because once I started talking, I sort of imagined as a care that all women care and then I would women, an interview them and their back or I don't give a damn Even those women felt that they pay a price. For being so brazenly themselves and when I came to realize that if you live in a society where women are supposed to care, if you go into a workplace where women are supposed to care and you dont meet those expectations than you still pay a price, and that's when my focus shifted, to the workplace, figured you'd. You saw that even if you were able to magically commit yourself not to care wooden fix everything because people will you be punished for knocker correct, so

at work a minute this when it feels like we sort of no, this strong women, women who are a sort of or a comfortable with confrontation, are constantly given this feedback that they need to tone it down smile a little bit more talk about things the text of the tea nearing it to you as I do it, and then that women, who are a very warm communal whose roof meet all these expectations of what we have a women, are told that they need to dial up their strength said a certain way and a meeting so there taken more seriously and thought of as leadership material, and so women are constantly doing this dance of being told there too. Are not enough and they need to modulate. Women like myself confusingly been given both sets of feedback which tells you how subjective contacts, specific. That feedback is, and so you know a woman is like screw it

im just going to do me often then runs into you know: penalties in the office for being like nah, I'm not going to fix the printer. You fix it like those those things add up over time and then the other problem which you will totally get is not caring is an active process. We talk about not caring as those just like just sit down, make a choice: For yourself like this, two grand meme about doing you and then you'll be fixed, and you can't be someone like me who, for thirty six years, has cared what other people think about you and then make a one time: choice to not care and suddenly be alleviated of this problem, so I wanna hear more about how this played out for you to do so because I mean well, I met your few times, but sit watching for distance, you're, surprising care. This much I mean not nothing. You come off as somebody who's doesn't

but you just seem like you just gotta together, so you to me you seem like a star and so not that carrying makes you not a star, but you u project and intelligence and confidence and I've put together miss that I wouldn't have guessed it makes me like you even more now that I know that what's going on beneath the surface, but it's so interesting. Well, first of all, thank you for that, because I think that As part of the irony, I am glad that my performance of self confidence has landed so well, but that is part of what we learned so for me, I think part of his. I grew up in union city, new jersey aid in my dad group of that People are four million city, and you know it it's a working class community, I I grew up upper middle class, my dad as an elected official, my mom's, a public school teacher at it- is

not a tough town, but there are elements of it that are gritty. You know because people are doing what they need to in order to survive. Super sensitive kid was sort of very early like you need to deal with the sensitivity you can't be crying everyday in class like you're gonna get your butt kicked in some a city, and so tough, for me is in some way something that I have learned. He learned the performance of toughness and I think, for lots of women, it's a perform that we learn when we go to work at all of a sudden. You need to be able to operate space. Were leadership has been defined by what we proceed, this very masculine qualities, and that you can't ever say I'm overwhelmed or I'm not sure, because those then become their own vulnerabilities. So for me, I think part of what I've always liked being honoured. Is that it means you ve gotta beyond, for what forty five minutes a day? And then you can go be this,

While few are a lot of the other time, rightward slant going, there is sort of a mess and, unlike wearing stretch, pants and I didn't do my hair, and I and you then there's there's a tedious to being honeyed words like that. Like goes on and you're on, and then it goes often Can you can be off like if you are sort of a quiet, introvert, a person you can go back to being a quiet introverted person for a part of the day I once in a management assessment that I thought was really helpful to where they were. dad you answer all these questions and I have no idea what these questions are. Adding up to have you taken. One of these, like I know simple choice and ends dinner's person comes back to you with an assessment, and it shows you sort of a dot of how you naturally are and a daughter of how you as present in the office and then an arrow, and it shows you how much yourself correcting from the way that you are naturally to the way that your office environment asks-

to be, and so the person doing. My analysis was like so you're very introverted person who is compensating to be very extroverted in the environment. The urgent and I'm psychiatric like that is exactly right: music, you're, really tired. end of the day. Are you and those like? Oh my god, Yes, I'm so tired every day, I thought that was just because you know my life's busy and there's a lot of work, and he was like no he's like this is a big part of it. Is that you correct and he's like you? Probably wrong that you need to make that correction, but that correction does come at a price the thing he said that I found really illustrative to your point seeming one way and feeling another is that he's like your very comfortable confronting people in power in your very comfortable, confronting people on behalf of the group you have a lot more trouble with confrontation that is lateral to you or even with people that you manage, and so I think as some of it is that the like south

Sensation is, is one where I am its imagining that that I now with someone who who has power questioning those in power in an actual office environment. You know I'm not as good as saying like. I needed that ten minutes ago, someone somebody who works for reason further signal moments that stand out in your life, where this desire could be liked. Really messed! You up jammed you up. yeah and I mean I wonder if, if you relate to this at all, but the interesting thing about the work that we do is that you both aren't office all day right. I know all of this sort of office, mechanics and politics that most people who are sultans or you know, work in healthcare deal with and then for

because there is an honor component and because there is a public image component, so much of the feed ban that I have received is about aesthetics and self presentation, like I remember when I was still trying to break ins meat, make that move from being driven on air contributor to being someone who work full time as a journalist to this is back in your having to posterity even before that, like when I was, I was doing a lot of cable spots and I would meet with people with it accurate. If it was about many, you were in a segment as a contributor, not as the anchor hopes correct. Thank you for making the town that I would have gone to one meeting its own beg. You really need to cut your hair, like your hair, belies how young you are you cut your hair, go home and cut my air, and then I go into another meeting and someone be like. Why did you call your hair?

here there are long hair was my everything about you end in my desire to people please and to be well. I would basically take any piece of advice, given to me not fully she attempt of house objective. That advice, was an eye. go and implemented end. Now that that somewhat unique to being on air in the sense that people can talk to us about our appearance in such a way that either would be an hr violation in a indifferent office, different line of work Women deal with this all the time at work. Great work majority of the feedback that women are given is critical, subjective feedback, meaning that it is most likely your bosses. Opinion of your style, that can be other women who are your boss, it can be men who are your boss, but women are so often talked about their voices. Hi is too low the where they sit in a chair, the way that they ask for things the way that they managed The team

that they use their hands like. I interviewed alexandra focus wilson who's, this You got entrepreneur. She she launched gill, she learned glam squads is now it ala again in very early in her career shed one of these communication coaches, who was like when you talk too much with their hands. If you insist, and talking with their hands. Then you need to talk with your head. in a more masculine way, like counting down your It's like ok, listen, Maybe that is helpful theoretically in terms of making her a better and more persuasive communicator. I think that and for women is that it represents so much of the feedback that we get that it takes up out of the room of actually talking about concrete skills that might make you better at your work. Another thing: I've read about feedback for women in the workplace is when their managers are men. And the men are too afraid to give them frank feedback and their careers suffer

because they don't know what to fix. Yes, thank you. So much for bringing this out, because that was one of the more surprising things that I read as well in in writing. The like trap, which is There's sort of this expectation they believe it is is that women will be able to handle it that weren't strong enough to receive critical feedback, and so people withhold it. But that's problematic too, because if you want to get better, the work you do. You need to understand what you're not doing correctly so Sometimes managers will withhold it. Some homes they will upwardly, distort so, actually give you a better sense of how you're doing then how you are actually doing. And then there are also eva joly. Longer there thinking, you're doing great and then august, the europe could your career if there is no state because you're not working on the stuff, the nobody tell you need to work, a correct, and I I I've gotten

one review. I think in my entire career, which is the other thing that we often talk about this in terms of systems and structures when a lot of us are working outside of those traditional systems and structures. Like you know, you don't have six month, reviews and lots of industries. The one review I got was glowing, so I would like to go currency was going though now I'm in a perhaps may bosses were fourthly, distorting it didn't occurred, me to ask how I could do better right that its that's part of the process to and part of what we have to learn witches. If you're in of these feedback sessions and you don't feel like you're getting the type of concrete feedback you need in order to you even better than your doing asked for it really push your manager to help find you ways that you can concretely do better than you are right now. Thank you for clarifying man, expanding on that and I'm glad that what my region, of what I read as regards increasingly question,

you wanted to say you know we were talking about this a little bit or I was thinking about this a little bit when we were talking before we start a recording that yes, public figures get alot of feedback that corner court, normal people, people don't get, but in my parents- this is an end of one here. Just my spirits observing the way the feedback happens. I get much different kinds of feedback than me. female you must when I get is stuff related to meditation Actually, I mean, even though I think or people would know me as a abc news actors that I've been doing this for twenty years, but me from what I hear on twitter is meditation stuff hey. I liked your book or you know hey, you should put this in the app or whatever else, or that was a funny comment and good morning america this morning or you know, and occasionally somebody will say hey. I thought that come out was all too snide visa free. One of your co anchors and war

I do I don't like your pilot. You were at your talking about politics and new revealed that either you're a liberal or conservative. I get both course, those yes, the women that I work with its view. Much about their hair makeup and clothing and I never get feedback that in fact I read once about or heard once about an australian. I think music were the same suit every day, for you and nobody commented on it, and I mean nobody, when I go on good morning, america, I, on the weekends aware that's kind of as sartorial mullet, I wear my my jacket and I have three jackets in my office that I just rotate among, even though I have a bunch of other suits on them, too lazy to bring in I put on a shirt and a tie, and I keep sweatpants on the bottom. So it's like business on top party on bottom and but the women with the council, have to rotate their clothing they're, getting comments about a from management from

people in the audience mean comments about how they look that management isn't make means hundreds, but the people on twitter making really cruel comments or or totally pornographic comments. I never get any of that and here you are you're all jealous- know about this. Actual imbalance is very striking vein there's so much that we can impact there in terms of the way that we imagine women's physique to be for consumption and then for a critique would I you're from that is then you don't really end up wasting a ton of energy contending with that feedback. No, I do have an inner voice, those pretty hard. yes, yes, but it's not bolstered days right. I look terrible or whatever I We on twitter is agreeing with me right That is, that is the big differ.

So which are so you and I both have this inner critic inner voice and then imagine you have a word of people on any platform com farming that use would be insecure about the things that you are likely already and scare about, because your human and telling you that there are new things you should be in securing like? I once had some one who left me a series of voice, males about how I had the largest mouth they'd ever seen, nodded never thought of myself ass being a person who had a particularly large, not but then they would go into detail. About how I should really think about how large or not those at another person who is always very upset about the amount of lip class I had on was like I'd love to respond to what you're saying, but I couldn't hear it through all the w de forty on your lips. So get creative in the way they described to you that end. That's and that's the problem, which is you lose time? You lose energy, it's not just that it banning its that it can be really draining.

lead. Disorienting like at a social level, when you talk about work, its answers, it's time away, really there's if there's a fine night amount of time you have to get done, the things you have to get done and any of that time taken out by talking about how you look or high you sound improve, you're, not a recording artist or a model is time away from the actual work that you do pack for me for a second, the title of the book, the liability crap. What does that mean. it means that I couldn't find. A synonym for trap because they dried, who is almost like ability, paradox a laker bill. Again we went through thousands that, there's more than one is, is party Is that there is this trap? which I have in, I think I've laid out, which is the sort of too warm too cold, never just write what I called the goldilocks conundrum and I think.

we're pretty familiar with that one trap to is that you're both being told If you're a woman in the workplace that you need to do this whole dial, it opera dial it down thing, but there were also being told that one of the key he's too leadership and one of the keys to being likeable is being your authentic, south. So you're doing this gender correcting performance at the same time that authenticity, being demanded, I look at the book through I look. the traps, the ruins of women. But I think there are a lot of people who contend with this period. I think especially contend with it, if you are a racial or ethnic minority in your office disabled if you are algae, bt q, I mean any time that you do not aligned with the dominant office culture and you're being told to be authentic. It can be really confusing, because your also probably getting subtle cues that you need to do some type of performance dumpy, two up at the door we do

They had seen from knocked up when the bar said the entertainment net with a movie knocked up. What was the Catherine high goal? Is the star and she said ie or something like that in her bosses are telling her you don't need to lose weight, it heighten up just to get on the scale, see what the number is get off when you get back on, make sure it's lower. Yes, that is a favorite of mine, and but so that, trapped to which- and I think that we live in this moment- were authenticity- is such a buzzword. It's almost lost all meaning riot like. Is it to be fully authentic, when most of us have a challenge really delving deep into who that and dick self is because at some point we ve been asked for perform in some way that is inauthentic and, and then people perform authenticity on a lot of these platforms. Right like it's one of the, I think the her for an uninstall them is vulnerability. Porn sites like here is just like a queen. just photo of myself talking about a really hard thing. I went through

and sometimes it is truly vulnerable and it is truly authentic, but also then becomes layered with this weird, like it's the third week of the month in it's time for me to reveal something about myself, so that I can feel really connected to my audience and there comes now a performance of vulnerability and performance of authenticity, and then Three new, when when shall Sandberg gave her ted talk that form the basis of linen and then wrote lean in the success, like ability, penalty for women came into focus right, you said became a thing that when we were talking about a lot that the more six swell you become as a woman. The lesson like you just because so rare to see women succeed that you see a woman who is successful and you think wow. She must have been willing to do anything to get there. There must be something wrong with her. That is complicated, it's even

more complicated because its every little thing you need to do on the path to success were like letty comes into play, so had she been women. There is a lot ability penalty and hiring because there's its presumed that if your super duper competent, you must not be very fun to work with their It's a likeability penalty when you ask for a raise or promotion, because you're advocating for yourself and that violates the expectation that women are supposed to advocate for all and and and like every little step, you're going through this and then on top of it there's this access, shall feeling which has a woman like myself, some unborn. Eighty three I'm raised in the four glow of the feminist revolution. I was taught that I could. Pursue ambition and success and want brazenly and it turns out this thing that I wanted, have strive for

runs counter to this other thing that I've been told that I should want and strive for, which is like ability such that it not just like a strategic deployment of how I do all of these things. To get to a certain point is that there is in tunnel, conflict and battle over these two things, I should want that. I'm being too old in actuality, are mutually exclusive. Fills a trap is the perfect work. because then you are needed for me, since he begging for it man, that's deep, but you eat. There are so many ways to lose here You know you are wired to want the affirmation, and yet the wanting of it, slows you down in your job and yet, if you dial down on the wanting of it. You can pay penalties for not pleasing people.

And then, if you follow societies, exhortations that women and can have it all and girl power. Or etc cetera? And you, you actually becomes success Well, you pay a price for that, because people resent you're quite if knew or are suspicious of you and the mere wanting of it can provoke the same suspicions. So it's like every which way you turn there are problems my getting there right I am shocked and stunned by how well you are able to articulate that, because it took me two years. Are writing the book to articulate it like it? Is it's come? keep and its messy, and it's why I get her appealing. It is too big, we'll just don't care like. Seems like such an elegant answer to what Such a complicated problem and on fortunately it's just not that simple. Isn't it's why it feel so good to me. Won't care because there

to actually solve. This requires a much more comprehensive organizational structural approach, Let's talk about that. So, where did you learn? You didn't and I'm going to bali and roman, and and praying didn't, lazo wrong? Yes itself, yeah, I mean where I landed- is that this I think is the conversation. The conversation like ability is, is sort of a cousin conversations. The conversation that a lot of organizational leaders earned our having rome, bias and unclear spiers, which is that, like ability becomes as very colloquial way of paper. Over the fact that were not all alike and that is challenging and that we tend to have in group by us in paris. people who share characteristics that we have an end. That is, a problem in the workplace that I think is being reckoned with real time, but that, like a bill,

becomes the slight can I use the example of during the twenty sixteen o action either of you had this experience out on the trail at all, but like people were talk about Hillary Clinton in the would sometimes you build these cases against her that were based on policy or experience or whatever else? That's all. Inevitably downshift to this final argument, which is I just don't like her and the challenge is that without was well, that's guttural, and so you can't argue with it. You can our with me about the email server. You can argue with me about benghazi, but you can't argue me about the fact that I don't like her. I heard women make this er yeah. I mean, I think you hear people make this argument, but other people all the time where they can't quite articulate what it is about. The other person that's in conflict to them, but you just don't like Elizabeth Warren. Has this issue that warrant part of china. any woman who runs for president, because we ve never had a woman president is going to continue to run up to this challenge which, as it becomes

The easiest way to discredit a candidate is to simply say that you don't like her and what's complex, for women, as men contend with. As re ted crews was was seen as unlike other headlines about how and likeable tankers was donald trump had a high or low, favorability rating. People will vote for a man even I don't like him wherefore free woman candidate. They have to be seen as both competent and Couple, and so they have a double hurdle- re have to clear, read so either seems to me that there are several levels of fix here. Get one is structural recital I know how much we can do about that I can tell you is part of a part of what we can do about it, which is. So funny, so guantanamo structural organizational, not no matter like whenever I give this. This talk to

group of women, women sort of always raise their hand and like okay, but what can I do? Which sort of brings us circularly back to the same thing? So so one of my favorite pieces of advice from the book came from this executive coach, but I just did too but it's fair because you you, I do think that There is a certain empowerment that comes from knowing what we as individuals can do, how we are contributing to the problem and how we contribute to the solution. So, if you are a woman and you receive that hyper feedback monotonously for anybody new received this type of subjective stylistic feedback that you're too hot to called wherever it may be, the key- I ask this: came from a management consultant in cutting a store compared to who write me some show me some one else in the office who is likewise as to assertive, and sometimes with does, is it forces the person whose giving you that review to consider whether or not they would give you and me the same piece of feedback on the file?

Up to that. That catherine offers, which I think is very good, is that you ask the person whose reviewing you to draw a line from the style that their identifying till your actual work product results it's one thing to say: I don't know you're really indecisive. Look. I want to do that. It's a different thing to say down you pride yourself on being very deliberative and you took a lot of time in making a series of decisions, but what happened is that resulted in the dac being a week in a half late to the client and we almost lost the account because at that time your style, your behaviour to the outcome? Ok, there may be something to learn in their right. Sometimes there is value to amending or being more self aware of one style, the promised you just being told it in you and being asked, fix it without any sense. Of how it is actually impacting the work product. The other thing in your car

less, which is this organization that focuses on women in the workplace and making workplaces better for women has all great language about flipping the script. So, even though I just stood. There is a difference between being indecisive, being deliberative, there's a difference between in passionate and being emotional, and when you use some of those words, you make a value judgment on the way that someone is rather than both in the framing of at end in whether or not it leads to different outcomes right. So so, if I am emotional, but you are passionate one, then I'd rather work. What the person is passionate and the person is motion and emotion attends. The attack on the women were fashion and get him gentlemen, so this sounds like a vice. ass you about this later, but sounds like with with art wordy here I started back where are you now and we'll get to that, but since emotional very much

we all are whether we want to admit it or not, or whether we hide it or not whether we are in touch with their not anyway, that's different, so bucks, was going to ask ultimately, but since we're here now we'll what are the practices men can do you for that question, because I think that is the question that we all to be asking ourselves so few things when you get feedback, attire outcomes focus on results, don't The focus on the way that a woman leads her team right focus. So there's a between saying you're not I advocate a year helping forceful enough in the way that you are pursuing that partnership right. that's in some ways, very stylistic it's about saying lake I need a jew whatever to make ten calls, and I don't. I wanted to see a meeting on the box by the end of the month and the meetings, not their right, there's a difference.

In terms of how you give that feedback and the extent to which it is tied to an outcome, I totally see that makes it really good sense, what. If, though, there's a woman, you are sure you recently tricky with a man too. It is a woman who work for you and you see her being kind or kind unkind, the deed everyone should be kind. relic. That's universal stand like I, and I agree with that night. I do see there also value in the workplace to being a legal person to being sort of congenial and someone that someone wants to be around it. Just as long as the standards are applied, applicable right are evenly right, so it's like, if, if What behavior is unkind from woman and it would be unkind from a man. You would deal with it with her. The same way you deal with it with him right that Those things, some of them actually, I think we need to grapple with in terms of coming to her a standard of what we expect heard much more from women,

was that there would be a guy in their office who is allowed to be brash and verbally use language that we sort of would all agree is not appropriate and he would be lost as a really strong leader and that if a woman were to ever use some of that language or to operate in the same way should be seen as a tyrant. Now, I think there's the secondary conversation of like. Should he be able to act? That way is that, ok, I don't think so, but the he is at their stats. Standards should be even are there other things that men should have in mind as we interact with women as peers, your men, tease or bosses or driving ports? I think language is really important again. Being careful. How you talk about people, do not care for being mindful about how you talk about other people, understand that can have consequences. Here's the thing I'll! that I would have never realised that I was contribute two witches

You call a woman helpful it relic, it's her to help her position. So if I think of helpful as it as a compliment right but if I say Amy's helpful than your eye, ok, well, I don't know what amy dead. Maybe she like brought you coffee. your toiling. You know in the middle of the night to say Amy provided all of the numbers far end of the year, a port to make it really concrete, gives you a sense of the way in which a me has contributed to the project differently than just calling your helpful, which sort of leaves it up to the imagination, what it is that she was doing there is also being really specific. There's, something called the innuendo. A fact which I think was is fascinating. Witches I say if you call me- and you are looking to do a background. Check on some one or two I'm listed as someone's reference, and I say to you: jill is so sweet. Everybody loves her and that's sort of the extent of the feedback. I give you about chill. There is,

a tendency to say. Well, Lucy said Joe was really sweet, so I guess she's not really assertive and strong and all the things that I need in this candidate converse. If I told you she was really strong, really comfortable confrontation. That's all I said You may make a value judgment that the things that I didn't say said something about her, so giving sort of very balanced, acting very mindful in the way that we talk about, other people is extraordinarily important. Third structural. Things like the way we designed feedback and evaluations and all of this stuff that the bottom line is requires by and from the top like. There are a lot of organisations that now have all of these programmes that are meant to address unconscious bias. It only works if there is actually sincerely a buying from management that these things are important and actually create better business outcomes. I mean the evidence is very clear that the crew,

better business outcomes. Rightly you have psychological safety on a team. When you have diverse, Deanna team action, I've seen numbers and show that women leaders has. She have perhaps comes that setting. That aside, whoever's the leadership if you've got psychological safety, in other words, people feel safe to speak up. and you ve got a diverse team with a different experiences being brought to bear on a problem. The numbers. I've seen indicate that the number that that the success rate is higher written when so Google did some of the research psychological safety or a day they were researching their team and found the best performing teams had psychological safety systems. A simple as when you lead a meeting making sure that you ask everyone for their opinion, actively soliciting opinions from people so that people feel hurt feel seen mean that that's not really a heavy undertaking right like you the meeting ask everybody for their opinion that that I

guess is an easy thing to do to make people feel like they belong. If we want a quick, rita Google's work around psychological safety is a new york times magazine article by charles. Do hague exactly excerpt from his book a book, he wrote it or what, but there are linking the chieftain coverts, yet second, article its full circle, much more conversations with only seamen and as read after this. In the first part of the twentieth century, the hilton family had a lock on the hotel industry by offering upscale service at a modest price. The company was expanding fast and buying up by conic properties across the country, like the plaza and the waldorf historiae, but their unchallenged rise wouldn't last an ambitious mormon named J, w marian decides to pivot, from restaurants, to hospitality and he's after hilton business, developing modern hotels across the world, but both

hilton and married families will have to contend with their share of drama in finding a successor, while also fighting to stay solvent in a high stakes: business hi, I'm david brown, the host of one. We show business wars, we go deep into some of the biggest bert rivalries of all time in our latest season, hilton and mary out or in a race to expand globally and secure the loyalty of fickle customers make sure to follow business wars were area, get your podcast, you can listen ad free on the amazon music or what react. When we think of sport stories, we tend to think of tales of epic on the field glory, but the new podcast sports explains the world. Brings you some

the wildest and most surprising sport stories? You ve never heard taken the teenager, who wrote a Wikipedia page that got a young athlete signed to a million dollar deal or a tennis prose who came out of retirement to fight off pending invasion? What about the ugandan national basketball coach? Who was really an undercover agent for the cia from award winning journalists across the globe? Sports explains the world, goes beyond leagues and stats to show stories that will redefine your understanding of sports and their impact on the world to hear these, and incredible stories from the wide world of sports. Listen to sports explains the world early and ad free with wondering, plus You convince the first nine episodes of sports explains the world right now. Add freak on wondering plus. The

Ok, I try to start this before we didn't get there. Let's go back to where you are you still care about what people think you, and how do you manage that in your mind and in your actions in the world and until totally next commission, well. First, let's talk about how putting a book out into the world is it's own mind, exploding. To do because you ve spent so much time in solitary act of right and thinking and all of a sudden, it's just time to share with the closet and there'll, be people like those people love in the world, be people with whom doesnt resonate at all So worse, things is to be completely ignored. Actually work range process and and to be a person who has written. Like ability, their sort of a as people are reading worker? Well, have I do they like me? Do they, like this book, said

and I worry about that a lot when I'm writing and I have a different chromosomal structure than you. I mean you want people to get through it right and like there is sort of a stickiness to likability. If you like someone, you like their tone, you're just more it clear to stick with them, then, if in page three or like I'm, I'm not into this voice and award, and what I have found helpful- and I address this in the book- is to shift towards. Other things, so I am in over thinker. I am what the late yale professor Susan, no one hawks not called a ruminate her. I love disorder. Taken idea and like swirl at around in my mind, like a fine wine and obsess over it and I'm pretty certain that if I can just turn something over enough, that it will come up with an answer, can be something like walking out of this party consuming like did Dan have good time during the recording of this, and I will accept piglet. So

that's the one thing I could just ask, but like it will, I will go through sort of different moments of them and evaluate it, and the truth is. I will come up with my interpretation of of the things at the end of it. I won't come up with a cold hard fact, so understanding. That has been very helpful to me, sort of the difference between a known fact and an interpretation the other thing that is helpful in that I heard from that's us accede, bt seriously, numbing cognitive, behavioral, tat, it s not c, b d. Yes, I laughed because I thought you said cb do but yes c, b, d, c b, t like you're your base, I don't I've, never done c b t, but I think it's about taking a look at your thought processes and just interrogating them out there. They disrupting yes and. A picture. What I found humphrey from women who have you know because, No leaders is a data Have other things that they are more focused on, so one of the things that I heard a lot about was on self awareness

being aware of the way that you are in the way that may impact others Clare eddie, being really clear in your vision and intent and the what think that does is instead of walking away and saying to dance like me, you did that listener. Like me, the question becomes: was I really clearing indicating what I wanted to communicate and if not, how can I be more clear, the next time around where I think that comes into play in an office. Is that very often I've under communicated in the past and now I've learned to over communicate such that we're all clear on expectations. clear on why some things important we're clear on why something needs to be done on the timeline that it's on to avoid? the thing that happens at the end of a project wreck I needed this five days ago. It's a good start you clear along the way about that, and if you were clear than there, you do have a right to be frustrated and hold pupil to account for that its high

to do that, when you weren't at every step of the way beings Clear and sometimes I think, when you're a person who has big ideas, visions, things you want to accomplish I for one can get so caught up in those ideas in those visions that sometimes I forget, I have to bring everyone else along with me, journey, and so I think that is a helpful thing to learn. Us manager interviewed De Grossman, who had the turnaround at home shopping networks, now the seal, wait watchers and shit talked about: one transition she made where she hired an executive coach. They did a three sixty evaluation, one of those things where you get evaluated both by the people who manage you and the people you manage. I had one of those about a year. I've talked about it. A lot on the show was not fun. No, comparative coin. Ask if you like, I think, sir, why yeah relayed? Yes, it also have called it an autopsy, and somebody who still live is some people say about you behind your back said too,

the face and sort of. I imagine that you did the same thing that she admitted to doing, which is you play that game of, like I think I know who said this oh yeah, and but that Take away for her was that she would hold these meetings where she would ask people for their input but because she was in charge. She would see. The problem immediately offer what she thought the solution was and that just didn't offer the timer space for anybody else to counter proposed, and so being aware of the way that she operates she started having. People get materials ready in advance prince them in advance so that she was totally studied up before the meetings that there was more breathing room in the meeting for conversation and discussion and not type of self awareness, I think, is something we all benefit from thinking about from working toward an eye clarity to him and sometimes it's about getting clear with ourselves about I we're doing what we're doing and sinners about.

There were others, I am talking about the workplace. I think a lot of this is applicable to our real lives. I've seen this play out in friendships. I see a play with my husband words like it's very clear to me, why the dishwasher needs to be unloaded, but sometimes I'm not doing a good job of, splaining like were coming home late tonight, we're gonna start making dinner. If the dishwashers fall, then what we're going to be able to move and cooking right away, and it's going to be thirty minutes later and the kids are going to beat a bed late, like I'm already, twenty steps ahead and totally pissed The dishwasher, when I ve never communicated the back up. That will results, since I just taking that minutes back. Let me impact assessed so clarity. I get just go back to unpacking or interrogating the thoughts go. Through your mind, because you're gonna be, moving through the world as it new publish author soon and europe genuine to be on television. As a journalist said, the issue of getting feedback.

Not gonna go well. How do you imagine that's gonna go for you One thing, I think, is actually just a very mechanical thing, which is considering for one soft answering for myself what I got out of some of these social platforms. Select, I just I've. again some of them off my phone. You too, I he also don't act mentions all the time which is challenging, because that means you can't be in dialogue, and you can't be in conversation with people constantly, but I I am not built to have that constant feedback loop, I'm in I think, in terms of getting feedback from coworkers, for managers. That is the process of maturation were now. I understand that I am not supposed to fully take every day the feedback that I am given that I am allowed to sift through them think about what I am we believe, helps

we better and that I can also allow things to be indians and then also just having things that I come back to incur caravan. My kids are incredibly grounding right, like they require. Time and energy, and a presence that helps break up the pattern of rumination rate like when you looked make. It was him when we got off the phone This is a really just no better way to break that that loop than to have someone said. I need you to be here right here right now with me and a lot of at other stuff is noise. We talk before but serve diabolical nature that multi level nature of the liability, trap or traps How confident are you they're going forward? Our europe children, male or female, I have to cross to earth how coventry that your girls, one have in a world where their workplaces

so fraught? I think about this all the time I think about it, because there is a lot about how we re girls and socialize girls, and I think that the fact that, unlike oh, I could do everything quoting quote right and then still released her into a world where their expectations about how a gorilla supposed to behave- and I'm going to have to contend with that as apparent so What I do know is that unless we start thinking of these things as things that are changed at a structural level and stop acting as though individual by changing their own behaviour, performance relationship to like ability can change things. That's enough! Isn't it both its both If it's, both individuals push organizations to do the things that they do, individuals make up organizations, but this sort of like what, I'm just warmer, I'm just stronger, yes, that that allow you to temporarily navigate a situation, but is not. actually changing the rules of the game. Yeah, I think I'll offer my

shouted optimism here, which is, I think, the fact that the head? That's it Please do change right and sometimes it's always and sometimes it's one step forward to step back her when whatever aid lurches forward and then there's a regression, but I think the only way it's gonna changes. People like you come for him for seeing a dialogue, and so I think, your daughter's man of thanking you for this much more, conversation with eliseo Mendez, read after this can I ask you a question: do you have advice and mean, given that you have gone through this process and have been on the other end of this feedback loop, specifically as it for us it's a book, but I think plenty of people produce things projects put them out into the world and then their available for consumption and critique. How do you not get totally tripped up in that

Well, I can give you my advice but now observe my vote: fact that I'm giving it from a male perspective. Where I I probably my. Why is different and the culture treats me differently. So grains of salt I wrote my first book and I admit it all this stuff house super ashamed of, and I I was really worry that no he's gonna kill my career and my mom, me not to publish it a couple weeks before it came out stemming email? It was already printed. It was and my boss at the time, but to my boss, it at the time a ban. Edward who you remember, who is the president of abc news and diane sawyer who still hears ankara correspondent, I went to speak to both of them and they said, look you know we love your mom but she's wrong in this case, and it's going to be fun. We have you back and I found was Oddly people, don't

the care that much about you know there was a titillating, my story, but really what they Wanted knows what you have for me, and I thought good, that I that unite thoroughly ripped off twenty six hunter years of the buddhist tradition, that I've had a sad thing, but to offer and so oddly enough admitting this stuff in the right way. In other words, I spent a lot of five years. book and thinking about how to write about it ran by tons of people to get feedback before I published in, and were admitting this stuff in the right way. In some ways ended up in sort of applause, and that and it has made me much more comfortable. Just being myself to the best of my ability. In ways that I wasn't before. So it's possible that you writing. This book is gonna, be really liberating. Regime admitting something. That's been a huge personal private bugaboo. for you, which is that you will spend

as I am worried about what other people think runs counter to the image you ve been presenting in some ways, and I thank them. it, can be warmly received and that you're gonna feel like empowered to be even we're available, not enough. Not an over sharing wags bleeding all over the place or just vomit up, all of anything he time, even bernay and has been on the show, was that you know the tsar as our ina of of Mobility in our culture says you'd want to feel that that's out over sharing is not proper vulnerability, but this what you ve done. It book is proper voluntary, telling people even stronger with how in dealing with and how they can deal with the two that strikes me as very, very constructive so You're gonna get some negative feedback along the way, and I think that will just be moments depend it's what you prefer. What did you do when you got? Did you get? Did you get any negative? Yes, yes for sure, and not that much, but I remember even before the book came out

some of us, maybe the daily mail review date and called it confession of a balding egomaniac, that's sweet, yeah, yeah, it hurts it hurts, but tells of refining I don't know I would have dealt with in the book had been roundly criticised I think it would have been really hard. I tabled what one thing that I've been thinking a lot about, because is what I'm ready at my next book, which is self love or self compassion is a really over use term and misunderstood, but there's a way through meditation practice, and also just through cognitive stuff, have a good friends there. Thinking about things in it in a different light, were using become much more friendly towards your ugliness and the stuff that you're ashamed of, and that can really transform the way you treat yourself with it, which is in actually linked to the way you behave in the world and that to me

seems like a key unlock and yes I would recommend you know in moments where you're getting tough criticism. see. Why is this hurry you so much, and is there something in their forget, the superficial stuff, for somebody says something substantive, that's you know in a three sixty for me, where got substantive feedback, and it really made me feel summit. Shame about all this stuff, all these old pattern. I was acting out if the key in that process is the view it with some warmth and charitable, wouldn't lincoln, say in his famous and argue second inaugurating a charity towards all that allows you to kind of just exhale and be like ARI. Well, yeah, I've got I'm a human being. I've got a lot of ugliness and I got good stuff too, and can I not constantly

I need the ugliness through denial or whatever, and that allows it to quiet down so that the good stuff can emerge that make any sense. It makes it a ton of sense. I It is also really scary right to think about interrogating the ugliness ends and uneven scary, to think about embracing it because would seem that that is a ceiling of control rating think of these as control things where it's like. Yes, I have some ugly things, but we just ignore them, or we just put them away as opposed to really saying like come out and play yes, but there are profound cites the hardest thing you ever do and do you want to be happy? Okay, so everybody does every animal? to all anything. Alive wants to be happy and, however way they are defining it, and I don't think you can truly have peace of mind if you ve got all he's neuroses operating out of your visibility and europe

walking around with ambient shame and of the stuff that is making you behind if misbehave and screw up here, relationships, and so the only move That makes any sense is actually to turn towards it and see it. The great meditation teacher spring wash em. I after my three sixty and she, her response was well inside, sets you free, but first it pisses you off, and that seems like a pretty good description of this process, much pithy or two If you tell your book ambient shame, I hereby tanker stewards, chapter attire, burger number, one thing: that work is one of the things I think about around with it I can by gender. Is, is how to write about these issues of related to kindness in a That will be unisex because- Men are, my issues of being kind, are very different.

Then women's issues. speaking generalities, but women are, as you said, socialized differently, so it very tricky thing, because the areas in which I fall short I see a gender route to some of them and so how to write about kindness in a way that will appeal to both or to all genders. That's really a big writing challenge for me, the cloister eating. Ok, before we go at last one letter. I want to see everything you locate head of hair. So person or show that was just being rude. I workers in the book I four separate a lot about losing my ears so that why they wrote it so wasn't their fault. One last thing because you you have all these pity phrases in the book. That end is one I just we got we hit most of them, what I want to get too before we go, which is, I want to see, if you're any closer to this or have thoughts about this, which is the cardi be effect

yes. Thank you. So much really love because I feel like we ve, had this our conversation in the context of on of gender and really that's like one wash where On top of that, you add race, ethnicity, sexual, Take him in there just so many ways that people are contending with this question of like ability, and so the committee be effect, is a is from p, R, a woman or a piece friend, pr sidney madden, and she talks about how it is. It's, the velocity of parties, assent comes from branding rooted in specific authenticity, and somebody doesn't know gaudy bs she's, a famous wrapper, yes and you can I'm up in some ways as this reality and to star who was completely unfiltered and that you know but she has no this little accent.

Flourishes to the way that she speaks a news, our hands and dresses, and that the that the often, City is what I was intrusted right. This is perceived authenticity because I think it's hard to ever really know if some is being authentic by and by the way, she seems not to care right. What other people tonight and though also there ve been moments, I have watched her like take down her instagram account because the feedback loop, getting too much from her too. So I think even people who purport not to care have there are limits, as you know, a caring someone made the distinction to me, even though she's not driven by likability, doesn't hurt any less when people don't like her, which I think is important and he got back to cardi B it just you know what of color is really what I had in my mind with the party be a fact which is like kenya, be so authentically yourself as a woman of color. As a person of color in a workplace b

loaded for that ends and get to do you, I'm not sure you do right most of the women of color that I interviewed felt that not only where they in some way a jew, sting their performance based on what was expected of them as women, but also were contending with a set of other challenges by virtue of being black or being latina and in many this being the only person in their office who, who was well at the and are one of the few and how like a real sense. People had that there was a way other people expected them to show up and to be on and how quickly people, were terse, stereo tape them that can be something sort of in innocuous, it's like this woman who had gone on to an office event. Where was the potluck benches

his mexican american everyone. Capping like that. Seven being dip was awesome and shows like I brought the sugar cookie. I think I acknowledge, why you resume is to really sort of more nefarious. Things like having conversations were there are racial eyes racially charged language use and calling it out and then becoming the problem in the meeting, because you called it out and so in as much This has to do with gender. I think it also really has to do with being the other in the office in any way that you can be the other and people having an expectation of the way that you're supposed to show up, and there can be a fillip to that to mean. Am latina. I very much identifies being within. I have this name. You know Alicia menendez where, when I show but like the doctors office bribery shore cause I'm just not but they were expecting in some way, because I am so white presenting

and I've received feedback that I should play at all I mean you can see im using our quotes, who play it out from from bosses from I think, from well intentioned mentors just the sense that it would be beneficial to me if people could read more easily that I was latina. Which is obviously wrapped up. and stereotypes and bias. But that there was a sense of what a latina should look like sound like dress like, and if I could, just a little bit more of that, then that would be beneficial and, of course, there are probably even more latinos who got it. The other way words like your accents, a problem, the hoops our problem like there's theirs, always a sense of how we're supposed to be are your. I hope that it will at last question because going back to my couple minutes ago, Look we about the difference in how I show up in the world as a white guy

I and my deficiencies around kindness and and the fact that that might not resonate with some women, but given the how I ve been brought up in, it remind me of another thing you talked about in the book, which is coach, k which, how do we pronounces named look I when I was doing the audio book they were, they were like. While you really don't know how to say this, isn't working, let's call him coach k for now, but yeah. He I mean he and as how many national championships is the one to do you know now. I don't have a ton, a ton I yeah. I played middle school basketball and and there is all of this sort of all these people that have been written about onwards, like you know it just so. He could just like a girl, and they mean it as a complementary thing, which is to say that he is relational

I'm communicative with his players, and there is a value that in how they play on the court as a result of that right. What I found interesting about that, as in terms of management stone, that doesn't mean your manager in how you are in, federal environment or in any other environment actually for men, nothing. Many men think there are actually really important female coded trades. as we can. develop incorporate into our style that would very advantageous, and I also think even you alluded to this over over the course of this conversation. But we're all emotional great and I think The differences women are condition to allow to be grapple with their emotions, where men are our conditions, it's a way in which I think we under serve boys and men and that manifest in our personal lives, but also manifest at the office n,

and vulnerability that you know to be of Honourable person is often seen as the potential to merit, as opposed to be seen as a point of connectivity. They can actually make it a better manager, a better leader, anything opening those things up for every one gives all of us more room to run more ways to be mean, whereas prescriptive with women, spare with men. It's just that. The ways which thus prescriptions or limited happened to be different for you remind us of the name of the book, and where can we find you a social media and any? If we want I've, been everything elysium an end as where can we do that? Yeah, I'm to have a europe with my name or even in those com, but I'm twitter utterly seamen and does uninstall gram, utterly seamen and does act so and I'm on facebook, because I need to

no. My mom is up to bad, But the book is called the like ability trap, and I I it's a thing I would love to be in conversation around, so if you do pick it up and you do read it, let me know what questions can answer for you great job. Thank you. Thank you. beg you eliseo glad we had a chance to re run that thanks as well to the people who work incredibly to make. This show Gabrielle sacrament J cashmere, justine, davy came by comma maria were tell Samuel Johnson gent point and we get Audio engineering from our good friends of red ultra violet audio will see while on wednesday, four a brand new episode. This is a really good one. It's about time management for mortals with journalists and author Oliver bergman I. A prime members you can listen to Ten percent happier early and ad free on amazon music.

Download the amazon music tat today or you can listen early and ad free with wondering, plus in apple pie, cas before you go. solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at wondering calm, slash, servant.