Don't miss out on the enjoy everyday walking meditation pack over on the ten percent happier app it's available for free until august twenty, If you haven't tried walking meditation on the app before I highly recommend you check it out here is what one user had to say. I'm quoting here, I'm in my sixty year with ten percent. I start and end my day with it. I like their walking meditations to use when I'm out exercising walking the dog the long I use it the more I learn the nuances and subtleties and refinements of the process is life. Changing that's awesome to hear Although the ten percent happier after day wherever you get your apps and get started for free these days, every new potential higher can feel like a high stakes wager for your small business. You wanna be one hundred percent certain that you have access to the best qualified candidates available. That's why you have to do bout linked and jobs linked in jobs helps find the right people for your team faster and for free post, your job for free at length,

ign, dot com, slash, acquire that's, linkedin, dot com, slash acquire to post your job for free terms and conditions, apply. From a abc. This is ten percent happier podcast, I'm dan Harris a happy friday, as many of you know, we usually reserve fridays for special bonus meditations, but today we're doing something a little bit different. We ve got a brand new food, episode ready for you. This is the third in our four part series on taming anxiety, as we move into summer and more and more vaccines are going into people's arms, your town or city or state or country may soon opening back up if it has an already. Some of us are ecstatic about that. A lot of us are anxious about that and by the way, those are not mutually exclusive. It's totally possible to be both ecstatic. anxious anyway, if the thought of large crowds or even small dinner parties makes your palms

Don't worry, you're not alone, and if this was true even before the pandemic. Europe also not alone. Our guest today is here help Ellen henrichson is a clinical psychologist who specializes in anxiety and social anxiety and serves on the faculty at both the universe, centre for anxiety and related disorders. She's, the their of how to be yourself: quiet your inner critic and rise above social anxiety. She also is a suffer, so she knows condition from the inside? In today's episode she explained how and why social anxiety has gotten worse since the start of the pandemic. How to increase your tolerance for uncertainty? and what you can do to face your own anxiety around social interactions, especially if you're in a place that is reopening she. Also answer many many questions from you are listeners. Some of these costs I have to do with social anxiety. We also pivot to just sort of general anxiety questions, because she's also an expert in that The things that comes up in this interview is that the lockdown that we ve been exploring

meanwhile, clearly necessary happen to mimic what psychologists call avoidance which is working and tendency to stay away from that which makes us anxious, normal times. We practice avoidance, because we think it's easier, even though it actually makes our anxiety worse. and now in these may be slowly headed back toward normal, depending on where you live times, we support having to keep away what makes you anxious, even if those things can also bring you great I like safely spend time with other actual human beings. This is it the problem and that's why, in addition to this series on the pike ass for launching a the taming anxiety, meditation challenge over on the ten percent happier app topic practice. What you're learning in this brand new ten day, meditation challenge we're gonna, be pairing, a leading anxiety, expert from harvard, with a top notch, meditation teacher all designed to help in practice. all the things you're going to be learning about here on this show they're free

tell me anxiety: challenge begins on Monday june twenty first and will run for ten days every day. You'll receive a video featuring was truly speaking with one or both of the aforementioned experts, explaining what you're, gonna learn and then you'll complete a short meditation. You'll also steve daily reminders to help you keep on track, and you can even invite your friends to join you and you can track their progress. by the way, one of those experts will be the excellent doktor luanda market So you just heard from in our last episode and the other is the incomparable, leslie booker meditation teacher, who you will hear from in our next episode on Monday, right here on the podcast to join them. for free, just download the ten percent happier app wherever you get your apps or by visiting ten percent dot com, all one word spelled out, and if you already have the app just open it up and follow the instructions to join

ok. Here we go now with our guest today, Ellen hendricks ellen address in welcoming the show. Thank you so much rapidly back. Haven't we hear so much. Right to it. I'm curious. Seventy, whose really specialised in Social anxiety, what the overall impact of covert been. Has it been great because people or have any We have social anxiety in. I would put myself on spectrum. There is a certain mild social anxiety. Well then, and you don't have to deal with what makes you anxious or is it a terrible because avoid is what puts all of our anxieties on steroids gath out, my god that was magic word avoidance, so the answer is both so short term. I think the pen

make has given people with social anxiety or introduce ports or who are shy and all that can overlap, there can be a big, then diagram of everybody I just mentioned has given. Permission to opt out or to not have to force ourselves to go to the gender reveal party or the new hollow a party at work, so it's been a nice break. I have talked to several clients and friends and colleagues who have you kind of like leaned in and said I love this? The first is the best. I hope you never go back as if as if this is illegal, you and so short term. It's been a nice reprieve long term, though it's not so great because, as you said, avoidance is a primary driver of social anxiety. And so you rightfully so we

have all been avoiding normal social life for more than a year, and just like that have your can follow mood you know like we can do, things we feel like doing mood also follows behaviour so over the panel as we see ourselves haven in ways that suggest social avoidance. Isolation, withdraw our thoughts and feelings, follow and catch up. So you buy midwinter or maybe even sooner, like a lot of us who had again rightfully so been withdrawn from social life, start to feel and to think in withdrawn isolated way, so that concept of your thoughts and feelings catching up to your behavior really played out

Here so now we're all rusty now we're all feeling anxious, and it makes sense that the prospect of diving back in is anxiety, provoking for one How do you recommend we tie trade? Our exposure going forward- and I just want to make it not for the fact that there are a lot of people assume this who live in parts of the world, where, yes, things are opening back up, and then there are a lot of people listening who are still lockdown? So let's try to service, both audiences yeah. No thanks for or me that way. I want to put this all in the context of when it is. I want, if we can, they objectively safe, because we never get to a hundred percent no risk right, but when your area is fortunate enough to be in transition. When masks perhaps can come off,

outside vaccinations are up eventually mask and inside. I think what that word exposure is exactly right and the concept of go slow to go fast go ahead and go slowly at the beginning, like you can dip your toe into the pool and really get yourself. You mean better or more ready or more confident with some of the early stages of revenge rather than expecting yourself to immediately do a cannon, volunteer, deepened and show up at a wedding, reception or immediately get on a plane or immediately go to graduation start with you hang out with up, for outside in outdoor cafe, go for a walk up with someone in your backyard,

those slow, smaller things in order to build up, go slow to go fast and that can that can take as long as you need want to say that again, if things are relatively safe, then a bit of anxiety, doesn't The thoroughly mean you're doing something wrong. It actually means you're, probably going back out there. It means that you are kind of chipping away, at this year plus of avoidance and isolation, and it makes sense that we, your anxious. It makes sense that we feel rusty. It makes sense that we don't know how to do this. Nobody alive today has urged from a global pandemic into a digital world, so we're all making this up as we go along, and it's ok to acknowledge yourself and out loud

to other people. How do we do this? Do we shake hands again? Do we all bump up? What are we doing? Are we hugging? What are you comfortable with that's totally okay to kind of float in that uncertainty, and you don't have to feel one hundred per cent ready before you can move forward? So that's it just to put a fine point on the last thing you said there, you don't have to wait until you feel utterly confident to dip your tellin, the water here exactly yeah. So, just like, we entered the pandemic with our behaviour leading and our feelings and thoughts catching up. We can do the same to re enter again when it is relatively easy. We can lead with our actions and that's how our confidence and are ready,

more catch up. Another way, I believe- and I think you ve nodded at this- is or not to this that's another way we can build. Some confidence is to communicate with them people around, ok, this is weird water. Or boundaries. What are my boundaries so that we can do it? We can get out there and have contact absolutely yeah again we're rome, in this up as we go along so articulating that can do several things so one is that anxiety is driven by uncertainty. We don't It's going to happen something bad happen, etc. So, when we communicate when we ask and information or set our own boundaries. We raise level of certainty, which therefore then can lower anxiety, so that one, but also-

when we show the look of small vive mobility around. How do we do this or oh, my gosh, I'm so rusty or I'm gonna feral. I dont remember how to eat in a restaurant, I'm probably gonna. Take my shoes, often but my feet on the table then, disclose their we're feeling a little weird about this too. It communicates hey. I trust you. I trust you enough to be small, vulnerable and we're probably alike that probably you have some questions. the foibles. Are, de as well, and so It is show a little bit. Am I you know, uncertainty and that will prompt you perhaps too surely will be yours where the same and so that builds trust and liking as well. you said before that, one of them, perhaps the principle ingredient and anxieties uncertainty? I believe you've also said that principal ingredient in working with anxiety, social anxiety or otherwise is building your tolerance for some uncertainty, because the fact that matters

yeah. We should get out there, but it is also true that risk has gone down to zero. It is also true that the risk of social embarrassment or awkwardness has definitely not gone down to zero. Never! Never will yeah that's a great question. I'm really glad you asked that there are in social anxiety as applied to covert, but also, if we can zoom out to more of a thirty thousand foot view with any anxiety. There are two lovers we can pull. There is increasing certainty. We can pull that lever and try to get more information, or no more about what's gonna happen or the sauce out any possible I could go wrong, so we don't get blindsided, that's the lover. We often try to pull. That's the lover that that seems most obvious to us but this is a magical lever we can pull, which is increasing. Our willingness to be uncertain and beckoned feel

the illegal that can feel a lot more dangerous, but when we stop trying to pull the lever of certainty. and allow for that ten percent that five percent that one percent uncertainty then ugly things get alot, maybe not easier. Maybe that's the wrong word, but they can more flexible, it doesn't have to be all or nothing, there's some for error, there's some room to screw up. There's some room to We would do over and that in here he is free and can help us move forward. I probably should have asked this at the start, but kid? You define social anxiety. I said that I am I put myself on the spectrum, but actually- as I said that, as I don't really know if I qualify, because I don't know that I can define it, we are all on the spectrum, with the exception of the one percent of us who are psychopaths so now Nine percent of us understand what it's like to have a socially anxious moment, but we can,

so narrow it down. So social anxiety is ultimately it's a fear of being judged rejected and often there is- perception. I want to emphasise that word perception that we have some kind of fatal flaw, that will be obvious We want around us that will be revealed to everyone around us and will be judged or rejected for it. So in what I call capital s self lines social anxiety disorder. That perceived fatal flaw drives quite a bit of suffering and quite a bit of avoidance. That said Again, ninety nine percent of us know what a socially anxious moment feels like forty percent of us identify as shy, which is just the colloquial way of saying socially anxious and thirteen percent of us at some point in life-

will meet criteria for a diagnosis will be able to be diagnosed with again that capitalists social anxiety disorder and what are the criteria. So generally for any anxiety disorder. You have to reach a threshold of boats, called distress or impairment. so with social anxiety. Distress essentially means that you suffer. So we all get anxious before a big moment like we all get anxious before a job interview or a first date or being on a internationally broadcast podcast. For example, I an open anything about that. We thought it there's a disproportionate anxiety if we get the same level of just before handing out to a new exercise class, and this would be like non covered times or doing

mean great, with a new employee at work if we you're losing sleep or have g problems for two days before that were have recurrent fantasies of a meteor hitting our workplaces, and maybe we want to do this. Then that's distress permanent is when social anxiety it's in the way of living, the life you want to live, so a classic example is a call student might deliberately forego twenty percent of their great, that is class participation because they feel unable to raise their hands or someone might passeth promotion at work, because if they took it, they would have to give more presentations or they would have to orient new interns to the workplace, and they feel unable to do that. That's impairment! So those are the two thresholds we have to reach for a disorder

you also asked that new. But what are the criteria near? What does this look like? So in general, there are four buckets that this kind of procedure fatal flaw might fall into, so the first is her appearance, so that might be. If people's lives are impaired or experienced great distress because they think that their ugly or their hair is weird or their skin is blemished or their fat. Second bucket Signs of anxiety itself, people we're gonna, see that I'm blushing think something's wrong with me, people are going to see my hands shake and think that I'm a nervous wreck, people going to see me swept through my shirt, and conclude that I'm a freak third bucket our social skills, people wool see that I go blank and don't think I'm boring people will see that I have nothing to say they will see that

I sound like a babbling idiot to other social skills go in that book at the fourth, is that our general character People will think that I'm a loser or I'm awkward or a weird any global character, illogical perceive fatal flaw goes into that bucket. Now people can view buckets over the course of their life or they might have perceived fatal flaws in several of those buckets. It doesn't have to be. choose only one. You can cut collect all four, but those are the those are the general areas that social as I see itself into a problem mangle these percentages, but if I recall correctly the night, nine percent of us have experience, social anxiety. Forty percent of us describe ourselves as shied. Thirteen percent qualify for capital,

social anxiety disorder. Oh I'm get the thumbs. I've got you got it. What our best practices for? dealing with social anxiety in whatever, wherever you are on the spectrum. Here we talk about exposure, what are the other things you would recommend to folks who are struggling with this at whatever level how do we have a lot of things? You said the magical word exposure, so the biggest thing we can do is gulf. what then do at our own pace, slowly and gradually things that were scared of, and that sounds too simple and a kind of is because there is there's lots of other stuff. That's wrapped up with that. So I'm gonna give you that three greatest hits of social anxiety treatment. So, first of all anxiety is highly driven by perfectionism. There is

Is this inner rulebook of? Perhaps I have to be cool? I have to be interesting. I have to carry this conversation. I have to be well here. Let me tell a story: maybe that'll be better: okay, so I'll change, demographic and identifying details. So I'm working with this med student who's lovely. I love working with her. She, whoever has her as a doctor in the future, will be lucky, but she has this interval book of I have to be curious and engaged. I have to be helpful. I have to be kind of be knowledgeable. I have to only ask good questions or on a bed nets. Do. It's very all or nothing, and so if she makes a mistake, if she and off day, if she hasn't off minute

She has taken herself from doing all right to suddenly now she's flipped on one. Eighty and she's stuck in this land have been a bad men student, very all, nothing. So we worked together to come up with rather than rules to come up with more flexible guidelines, we're not doing a one eighty. This is what a lot of people I worry about when I talk about We back perfectionism, they think camp, but if I knew if I m not aiming to be kind all the time. Does that mean I'm going to be a jerk and not care about it? If I'm trying to be helpful, all the time does that mean that I have two does not what anybody thinks of me, no we're not doing a one eighty, but instead of I have to be curious. All the time we rolled back to I,

to be curious instead of like. I have two only ask good questions or am a bad men student you brought it back to you know I prefer to ask questions. Seventy percent of the time- and I gave her a lot, wriggle room, so I was listening to your interview with katy muffin and I loved the concept of the good issue. Person just jump for second, to give credit where its due katy milkman is a professor University of Pennsylvania's wardens school and the host of a podcast called choice algae shelter wrote a book called how to change, and she talks a lot about how we can change our habits. British came up in the context of that conversation, but that is a concept from another academic happens to be friends with katy Her name is dolly chug and she's it and why you and she used this concept of goodish around them bias and prejudice and that we know if we

our ourselves, a story that we're good h instead of good, then somebody points out that we may have said something racist, were our whole identity. What once beef so threatened good as allows room for growth often, and I think that or at I took it to extend, to social anxiety in terms of the perfection ass, dick standards that we have is rigid rules. We have internalized that rather than that. From now on, which my high and rigid standards all the time that doesnt throw me into this other opposite category I'll tell you when we're short story: spies working with mom who, during the pandemic, noticed that he had some new neighbours move in down the street and noticed that that family had kids the same age as

cricket, so she invited them over to do a mask distance, pleaded backyard and was chatting with the dad and the dad said, like oh yeah, We have to learn how to take care of a poor. We ve never had a port before and she's at all. I didn't, I didn't realize we had a pool in the neighborhood and he said oh yeah Well, when the weather's warmer we'll have to have you over, and so she thought, oh, my gonna, she thinks he thinks that I just invited myself to his house. This is so awkward and so she trying to fix It- Oh! No! No, I didn't! I didn't mean to invite us over a donor, that's it and then, and then her in her voice, said Well now you sound like you're rejecting his invitation. Then she just kept trying to correct it, made things worse, and so we unpacked that and realise that

he had a rule of. I can never make anyone feel bad even by accident, and so of course, that was gonna, throw her into a feeling, anxious and trying to fix what she perceived as a problem, and so we we tried to give her. Some flexible guidelines rather than these rigid rules, and she applied the kind of good ish concept to herself. But Oh, she also gave some little room to other people and came up with some flexible lines of people can handle some awkwardness. My relationships can handle some ups and downs. Well, don't usually change their opinions drastically after one and our interaction, and so do I just love that concept of the the wiggle room and the issue. I think tacking issue onto many desirable traipse can free us up quite a bit

you're, giving a sort of a taxonomy of psychology is that derive their? Are you You just finished talk, I believe about protectionism, but one of the other two. So the second thing our attention is like a spotlight and monitors are good, focusing attention Or aspire to be good at focusing attention, certainly, so, in a socially anxious moment our attention often turns inward. and we start to monitor ourselves. And will say what should I do with my hands? It's what I just said offensive Am I boring her? Maybe if I stand this way rather than this way, I'll look more casual, so attention spotlight turns inward. But then what happens? Is we miss out on the moment we cease to paint

and what is actually happening around us. So what we can do is deliberately try to turn that attention spotlight outward and to focus on the person. We're talking to to listen closely to what they're saying to focus on down like look at their face, Basically, though, will focus on anything except ourselves and that counter intuitively frees up a lot of bandwidth and lets us respond more naturally in the moment, because when our attention is focused inward, that's when we spill or drink or step on someone's foot. Have we can focus outward, then we can be more in the moment and respond accordingly and third psychological feature of social anxiety. Sure. So a third thing to do. There's a concept. Call

food safety behaviors and essentially, what that is, is it the action that we take to try to save ourselves. It's like a life preserver that actually hold this underwater think it's gonna save us, but really it thinks us So these are all the actions we take to compensate when we feel anxious. So we might over explain if we think we offended someone we might write nine paragraph explanatory email saying what we really meant we might over prepare it for feeling anxious about it. As an taken, we might workers it twenty five times. We might be over Be friendly and put triple exclamation points at the end of sentences and our emails, I have wyatt who realise that, in order to compensate for her perceived fatal flaw of being single when she goes out with her friends who are mostly coupled, she will have to be.

Overly entertaining. She has to tell the zionist story and the craziest time in order to compensate in her mind, We might point out flaws. I have a lovely client who put together some thank you bouquets for appreciation weaken her kids, school and, when she was delivering them had to point out to each teacher. Sorry, sorry: these tools are starting to open. And then she would get no, no, no! No! No. These are lovely. Oh my gosh, thank you so much and it would reassure her. It would reduce her anxiety, but what happened the safety behaviors, so the other, the compensating the overdoing it etc. Planet flaws, then those. things, the or explain all the siege behaviors. They get the credit for keeping a safe, dig credit for the worst case scenario not happening, and they get the credit for people saying like what these These flowers are not good enough like what's wrong with you or where are you

Well single, what's wrong with you, so we have to drop the safety behaviors and then we get the credit for our feared outcomes not happening now. This is hard. This is you're said then donkeys. Dropping safety behaviors feels illegal, like if we use to over preparing or. overly entertaining are overly friendly. We feel naked with these behaviors, but if we can slowly try to do that overtime and thankfully the ninety One per cent of us. No worse hiv neighbours. We can kind of figure. Yeah I over prepare yeah I know over rehearse whatever it might be, that's pretty easy to access, and so we can. We can experiment with dropping them and the more often we do that then the more we get, the credit and the easier it becomes

and so instead of trying to do our best self all the time we realized, we can just be yourself and that can be very free. We just go back to this clean up after a social. Engagement and you feel, like maybe you said, put your foot in your mouth obscurity. what you're rule of thumb might be. We had a one of our first dinner parties recently with a bunch of fully vaccinate. Folks, yeah cdc approved number of fully vaccinated approach of oaks Anderson. Point in the dinner where I gave somebody compliment and she kind of she didn't take offence which kind of winking you know, serve made a joke about how she thought. I must be joking about this. nice thing that I had actually said she rejected your compliment, Well, she just misunderstood it. Ok, ok, just assume that most of the things I say our jokes- that I must have been talking about that and in the moment I said, action have serious, but the conversely

continued and I just followed up with an email. The next stage is to say I just want to go back to that carbon I really did mean it. Am I gotta very primitive email and response. So what are you generally thinkers. I've put my foot and mouth so times on this podcast cast at parties whatever at work. What do you think about the Process of reflection afterwards, and perhaps the project of repair, or that does any of that make sense. Oh totally, totally totally that's a great question, so I think this is where we have to be honest with ourselves and ask ourselves If we think there really is a repair to be made and then yes definitely reach out, then the euro, the emails a hundred percent appropriate. But if we our priority sure that word is doing this to reduce Sorry, I anxiety to get some reassuring. skip some certainty that from that returning,

like. No no, I didn't take, then, is offensive and all that thank you for the compliments. If we're just doing it to reduce our anxiety or if we that this is something we do routinely like the one off. Certainly that makes sense, but if it's a go to them We can question that and say: ok is this getting the credit for people like me, or people remaining, my friend or new people, that continuing to invite me to dinner parties, so I think, if its solely to reduce the anxiety, we can think about dropping it, but if it is indeed for what we think should be a genuine repair, then absolutely go ahead. I had in my mind the desire to ask that question and in so doing. I think I've missed an obvious follow up to the answer you gave for that which is you use the phrase? Be yourself

a lot of people here, that are alike were hell easier, said than done when I hunted remain hotter, resent ok, so, in the context of what we're talking about social anxiety, yourself is the self you are without fear, it's the the self that you are when you are either hanging out with people. You love and trust the people you if you like, you can relaxing be not to repeat this, but yourself with, or maybe it's even when you're in blissful solitude. We are true self when we stop working so hard to. control the situation or manage our image or use these safety behaviour.

Is to make sure that things don't happen and we don't have to think about those things. How do we access that? Oh, my goodness, that's the sixty four thousand dollar question. Well, so we can drop the things that were doing that are getting the credit. We can be a little bit silly. Well, the folks, with social anxiety, cope on either end of the spectrum, either there's avoidance, which can be overt. We don't show up. We don't answer the phone we bail at the last minute or can be covert. We show up scroll through our friend in a corner or review. We walk down the street. We ve got your bugs in and send glasses on, to make sure nobody talks to us so over covert avoidance or

we cope way on the other side of the spectrum. With super approach. Coping we go, do the thing, but we hit it out of the park and make sure that we do it all the way and so to access the true self. I think we can roll back both ends of those and to show up more often to not avoid, but to it's ok, to hit a double. We don't have to hit it out of the park. People are not our friends because we are competent and confident or capable. There are friends because of our Silliness and foibles an quirks just as much as our strength that we like to show the world some accent

it does- and I guess maybe I would build on it by saying- I think it's probably okay, not only to hit a double occasionally, but it is. came to strike out better to be on. The field is out ok to strike out, and I think it behoves us to do that, because what is this analogy? So if you walk into a home, it's like a little too perfect like it looks like it's out of a magazine like the throw closer like perfectly karate chopped lake. There's news immaculate flowers aren't dislike, looks but also think a hotel lobby, at least for me, I'm afraid to sit down. It's all too much when I go over to somebody's house and maybe after pressing crumbs off the table to

down there are overdue library books on the floor. There was a tank of tadpoles that their kids fish on the local pond. Now I feel at home now I feel like I can really I can sit down. I can put my feet up and I can connect so I think that when we strike out or hit a single or or a double, it actually shows that we are human rather than. Superhuman, we are reliable rather than unreliable, we are safe rather than intimidating and that ultimately helps us connect which is fundamentally what role after even the most introverted of introverts needs love, comedian, belonging, and so, if we present to the world as a whole to perfect it actually crew, the distance it creates. A wall between us and other people

if we do show our foibles or ask for advice or ask for help. That shows that we trust others and draws us closer to them How does meditation help if, at all with social anxiety, yeah yeah yeah? Oh lot, let me tell you about a one: ever studies regarding that they contain a big nerd, because I've have favorite studies. So there are two canadian researchers Stephanie cason in your rapporteur. They did this lovely city where they train about sixty people with capital, s ear, the social anxiety. This order will be divided into three groups. The first group got train for just ten minutes in mindfulness meditation. They taught them how to vote.

On the breath, bring their attention back when it wondered except their experience in the present moment. Ten minutes, that's it and then the other two groups respectively, got taught to either. Track themselves so to pay attention to something that was not the task at hand or does do nothing at all. I don't know no train required there. Okay. So after this no new ten minute experience They were asked to bring to mind a really. humiliating or awkward or society provoking social memory elegant date. went horribly wrong. The time they did something super court in a party a presentation had a panic attack during, and so there s a ring memory to mind like as vividly as It's really get in there and wallow around for five minutes. If you picture something very vividly It was of sensory detail in your head. Dear ray is almost as if the thing is

so they really have to revisit this moment and then for the next five minutes, they were asked to apply what they had just learned, either mindfulness distraction to wait it out and the group whose distress went down the most was tat. The rifle this group, their distress, went down steadily and significantly in the distraction group it and go down at all and in the way our group. It actually went up partly because they kept thinking and ruminating about it and those after ten minutes of

I mean, which is amazing. So I think that is phenomenal, but I also think that we can take some of the lessons of mindfulness and even separate it out from the meditation there's a real orientation of therapy called act. It stands for acceptance and commitment therapy that does a lot of work with exercises and metaphors that tap into mindfulness, without necessarily tapping into meditation per se. So folks, who maybe are not ready to meditate or whatnot, can still take advantage of some of the concepts and there's a exercise that I like to use with my clients called hands as thoughts which were and video for your listeners. But so you, you hold your hands out in front of you like me yours kind of relax, apart palms up almost as if you are supporting a book.

and so your hands represent your thoughts and now we raise our hands to our face kind of like were watching a horror movies like we're. We're kind of picking through are parted fingers, and so this represents a socially anxious moment when our thoughts, Are you asking us all around and we're thinking that I just defend her? How do I fix this? Does she think I'm stupid, etc and when our thoughts are right here right now face. We can see the moment as clearly as we like, and so then, in the exercise of our hands, hands,

Though there the thoughts are still there, but we don't have to hold them right up to our face. We can pull them over here, hold them down in a way and creep some distance in some awareness that we have to push them way not to make them go away, but you don't have to be right there in our vision either. So the practice of meditation can help us not get stuck in rumination about past perceive misdeeds, earth, awkwardness and the mental quality of mindfulness, which can be trained through meditation or lots of other techniques like the one you just described, can help us get some

students either in the moment or ex post facto, on whatever is allowing us in the social realm yeah. I think this is partly where I should do for you. I think that in either case, what its tapping into what's called like cognitive de fusion, getting us to not fuse too who are thoughts in the case of social anxiety, our inner critics, thoughts or self judgmental thoughts, deserted, urges to overcompensate for trying to decouple those to too our experience. From those thoughts and memories and urges. defusing is nice. Buddhism we use the rather not melissa, louis term of non attachment. which is different from detachment because detachment, it's gotta dissociation or avoidance to use the term de jure. It implies that, whereas non italian means a kind of.

the intimacy without fusing, ok yeah, I think we're speaking the same language and its differences. Much more. My conversation with Ellen henrichson right after this. academy is a new scripted. Podcast, the fellows aver richards, a brilliant scholarship student attending bishop grey economy. The countries most exclusive boarding school academy makes you into the world of a cut throat, private school, where power, money and sex collide in a game of life and death, binge alternatives, at the academy, early and ad free on wondering plus, when we think of what stories we tend to think of tales of epic on the field glory, but the new podcast sports explains the world brings you some

The wildest and most surprising sport stories. You ve never heard taken the teenager, who wrote a Wikipedia page that got a young athlete signed to a million dollar deal or a tennis prose who came out of retirement to fight off pending invasion. What about the ugandan national basketball coach? Who was really an undercover agent for the cia, from award winning journalists across the globe sports explains the world goes beyond leagues and stats to show stories that will redefine your understanding of sports and their impact on the world. To hear these and incredible stories from the wide world of sports. Listen to sports explains the world early and ad free with wondering, plus you can be the first nine episodes of sports explains the world right now add free on wondering plus we ve got a bunch of voice mouse because

This is a social anxiety is top of mine for many people right now. The first one has to do with. How can we in particular people who are employers or administrators and college campuses, or he anyway, in positions of power or organizational power, create environments where we can make them maximum comfortable in this interesting moment in the pandemic, so here we go with voice number one. I thank you for it, my question so I am a mathematics, professor at a university. my first experience, begin to a restaurant recently with losses are unmasked faces, and it was in town are universally as requiring all students to be vaccinated before returned and we will have a lot of students working together in close spaces working together in reports scenarios

and we need it, and I fear that a one hit the ground running, but to be mindful that this may be familiar to refer first experience with a large unmasked crowd and someone How can universities support students their return to class and campus life. So thank you very much and again You talk about this, not just from the standpoint of university administrators, but anybody whose organizing spaces where people are coming together, this can be a dinner party, can be work well how do you make it so people are comfortable when the color was talking about going into. Drunk with lots of mass spaces like and how it was intense. I I hear that that makes total sense. Yes, very jarring, to jump into a An intense scenario right away, so one thing the collar mentioned: we need to hit the ground running diluted before too.

Saying of go slow to go fast, so I'm a psychologist I specialize in the one to want the individual sire, I think, creating institutional policy. My beyond my pay great, but I think we can intentionally devote time to reestablish in this case the university culture to set clear expectations time to react quickly like to try to support that certainty lever and say: okay, this is what we're going to do. This is how we're going to do it. These are the expec tations, with an eye to making people as comfortable as possible, but also to try to allow some time to react will meet new, maybe try to have if this is possible, which may not be put to lots. Have some smaller groups meet first Let's not dive right back into a all staff meeting in an auditorium to try to norway in if possible, pay

aid caveat noted, but it sounds like to my ears. Pretty good advice be clear and if you can be incremental, there's? Another voice? Mail here has to do something we talk about a bit, which is this is from somebody who experiences anxiety after a social interaction. Let's take a lesson hi there and company. My question relates to social anxiety. I currently have your actions with people in public, and the pattern goes like this. Moments of the interaction I feel energetic and outgoing pocket is and presses and directly the interaction like normal tie, like someone, said my thoughts. and then usually later that night? I recall the action and I feel an intense physical cringe of embarrassment in my chest, but I wish I could just for myself up into an envelope and high, and I have thoughts like waiting

they must have thought so annoying are accurate, and so my question is what happened here. What was the brain chemistry going on during the interaction of positive and, what's the bridge from here? happens when I recall the experience and it doesn't make negative- is people memory. I find that learning the science and mechanic Oh, this is what s happening here in your brain in your body, really help me with my mind for this practice, just throughout the day. looking for this theory thanks so much what say you Cringe attacks yeah, so we only these are called cringe attacks can happen years later, like I'm sure we will have expressed We're like we're were in the shower, and and suddenly we get like hit with the memory of like no fourteen during that's great, spelling bee. Like that ridiculous thing we said at a party in college. I do not ok, so important

I think the brain mechanisms are beyond the bleeding edge of science. I wish we knew that, but I can't say that cringe attacks there's there's a little research around that and ninety percent. happening we're alone, eighty percent of increase. Ex happen. While we're doing some kind of mind, less activity like folding laundry, taking a shower trying to fall asleep like that's a big one, but I think that take home here is that this does not mean that everything is wrong with you that cringe attacks are universal, so common has a name and Interestingly, so that you can do anything other than as part of a body, the larger humanity? And it's just what happens for me ill I, for whatever reason, get along contacts, and at this point I think now is kind of like getting a cramp or like getting a trolley horse like I know like there's an uncomfortable. I know not dangerous it doesn't mean anything about me and it's kind, let it pass in

fines any particular, so current attacks I dont know if this is actually the case, but when we refer to those actually things from the distant past, whereas if were train over the light real from today, he's conversation. Social anxiety, that's called post event, processing and there we can either surf the wave. We can say this is just what my brain does it likes to focus on flaws it likes to focused on the light real. That's the acceptance pocket. We can we can get in there and trying to do some change where we can challenge the thoughts and say like ok, for how many minister, I really think she was thinking about what I said like what percentage for day was spent. Thinking about me after that, or otherwise trying to channel the thoughts, but in general I prefer the the if using the non attachment of sometimes putting the phrase, I'm having the thought that in front of whatever the heck

turn over in my mind, because I was being annoying feels like truth, but I'm having the thought that I was being annoying- allows for some distance, arthur doubts of cases where some thoughtful self reflection of well. You might have offended that person, I've who I wonder what that's about. Why did I say that is their repair to be done? Is their learning to be done about the kinds of things I say is any of that ever appropriate. Oh yeah, totally. Does we we're thinking, like you know, I kind of I was kind of being a jerk back there. Yet then that absolutely like, I think, repair is appropriate. I I find that at least this is not research. This is just my experience that if I find myself feeling kind of defensive like well I really meant death that irritated. Then I probably actually found them ass well, ass of undisputed.

just like, oh my god, what did I say if they're not, then I'm probably just having doing the my post about processing her having a cringe attack, and then I can surf the wave. So I was watching space during that last caller's message and you are really nodding along in them, adding that and fusing baptism of you, the comments you've just made and the calling that when your first on the show, I believe you talked about the fact that you not only treat me but with social inside a. U have suffer with it yourself as that, a correct memory of my aunt yeah. Now you get that absolutely correct memory. Now, let us folks in my field get into it, but researchers need urgent. or a lot of medical practitioners we'll get him to feel because of their own mental health problems and kind of backed into it from the back door like I started out in health psychology researching, specifically hiv and depression and then pivoted into cancer. anxiety and then pivoted into just anxiety, and when I was learning how to treat anxiety and work patient? Oh that's! What that was.

Ok. These are my people and wrecked. nice would have in the rearview mirror that that was certainly a story that I was familiar with and could resonate with, and I like to think that I've come a long way in my own social, exactly journey, but I absolutely still have my moments and yes, yes, you did see me not in along to the story of conditions, x and other you kind of sequoia of suffering so yeah, I'm I'm on the same journey as anyone listening who is familiar with social anxiety. I'm I'm right. There pelenore canoe with you, so this next collar has a questionable how to deal with anxiety in the moment I think she's having a bit of a tangle. So, let's listen to Catherine and my name is Katherine and I live outside of washington DC. I've been living with generalized anxiety disorder for most of my life formally diagnosed in my teens, and I'm in my mid thirty. I,

study a of brain function in psychology surrounding my anxiety and how it impacts me until I know my triggers, I know, why I do think that is because anxiety, I know that x, Z will trigger it, but that doesn't dasset though my question is: how can I make that connection into what intellectually knows something in getting the rest of my brain go: hey dummy! This is your anxiety, talking These things are not real you're, not gonna, get fired, because you make one mistake in Amelia you're not going to. is everything, because this is. How can I call myself guy tries to pass. It doesn't always work under any other kids making that connection between listen, my anxiety and dropping it before it takes over every swell. The package It's a great question and I'm eager to hear your answer just a flag. It sounds like its brow.

more than just social anxiety, its anxiety generally, but good thing you ve got experience with both totally yes. So I love this question mentioned, generalised things I did, sir, so also called J d. The hallmarks of that our two things. One is worry that feels uncontrollable and physical tension. I like in the world like a car stuck in the mud, spinning it's wheels like there's a lot of energy being expended, but it's not actually going anywhere, but the worry and then physical tension warriors. will often carry their worry in their back or their neck or the growing their teeth or get tension headaches. So those two things worry intention or the hallmarks of that: ok, it is actually spot on that catherine talks about intellectually understanding how that doesn't always work. So she's totally honest something here because worry one of those hallmarks of gaiety he's very intellectual and worry, keeps us in this verbal

intellectual or cognitive realm. If your viewers could see me, I'm like kind of waving my hands up at this high level around my head right now. So if we can't make our intellect work for us to calm the anxiety we gotta go through some backdoors and there's two of those one is our body. Our bodies and brains are a package. Deal target worry when we're relaxed, so we can try to notice that tension and I to do some relaxation exercises or otherwise find him that tension down an arm minds will often come with it. The second backdoor is trying to access the site, our emotions- and this is really interesting because worry is theorize to be actually a form of avoidance it's really uncomfortable to worry, to spend those wheels to turn those thoughts over and over and our head

but it's theorized that it is less uncomfortable, then dropping into. And feeling what we feel so Catherine says she knows that the worries just to worry, like she's, not gonna get fired because she made one Taken a million she's, not gonna, lose everything in the tool box of anxiety tools like this is the power saw. So if we can drop into the feeling associated with what, if I get fired what? If I lose everything and let ourselves feel those this, this is probably best done with the guidance of a therapist. This is called in national exposure. Then we realise wait a bit I'm not getting fired, I'm not losing everything like I'm allowing myself to access these emotions, but the feared outcome isn't happening

and then the power of the connection of the feeling in the the thing we fear loosens, as we allow ourselves to actually feel that we feel that can be very powerful back door to letting go of those worries again, probably best done with her with a tree the therapist, but very effective just to check. You said there were two options: did you hit both of them? So your body, your emotions, if the brain doesn't work which sometimes can sometimes doesn't yeah, then those are two other good options. So this next quest and comes out in the form of a voice mail, but actually rather affecting email from somewhere? Susan munchkin arena to its brief, I've had anxiety as far back as I can remember, and I've suffer from panic attacks while driving. Since I was too one. I'm now sixty five so tired of it. I've been on pack so prozac and liberia before that of currently not taking any medical,

but my world is so small. My daughter lives, two hours away and I'm afraid to drive to see her I've pretty much better control, freak and perfection of my whole life this is no way to live thanks susan again. I think this is a broader anxiety questioned, but it really does play into protectionist which we ve already discussed yeah, no, absolutely and Oh, my gosh, my heart goes out to susan. That's too, have suffered for over forty years into not be able to drive to see her daughter? Might my heart goes out her, so Susan deserves more than you know an email response from me. Thirty

I was in full view of anxiety. We all want safety. We all want to feel safe, whether that's feeling socially safe, whether that's feeling safe in the world secure and a bunch of things, bundle to predispose us to feel anxious We have a predisposed temperament anxiety, definitely has a genetic component. If we have a first degree relative with an anxiety disorder, then we are six to eight times as likely to also have that same disorder, so parent child sibling. Definitely a genetic component So that's nature. Then there is nurture. We learn along the way. Maybe our parents are very cautious,

Maybe they're, very perfection mystic me with a model that for us regardless does deafening nurtured component and there's also coping component, knows how we interact with the world and a lot of us who experience anxiety tend to over control. We might have down our emotions or put on a brave face or say I'm fine, I'm good vine. We might persevere through intense distress and that could be like learning to persevere through training for a marathon or you really striking, in school. We might on energy into achievement. Basically, what coping. We learn that good things happen when we over control, but sometimes I can t too much of a good thing? And then we learned to emphasise performance over connection and and be miss out.

I want to validate for susan that symptoms are often just survival techniques that there must have been something about her life or her genetic or her up brain that may being a control freak or made being protectionist necessary. She probably did a lot of them. Over control or whatever her story is to survive to to make things work to keep herself safe, which is what we all fundamentally need, but at the the day? It sounds like there was too much of a good thing or when she got herself into safer scenario. Maybe she moved out of an over controlling home, maybe as she along in life, those habit stock. So what we can do if we fight ourselves in a scenario like susan's is too is too. We try to roll back. Some of the things that did keep us safe that were really important for

surviving whatever our situation was, but to try to update those to match our. new situation. So now I want to validate susan's experience and validate that you know again. Symptoms are often just signs of trying to survive Clearly now they're, getting in her way with We have not been able to drive to see her daughter what she so so much wants to do so in terms of the driving really quick to student mentioned specifically, but whenever I can, folks who are worried about driving it's often because their word they're, gonna, panic. Why their driving and that they're gonna lose control. She called her self control freak and I've seen several times boy that they're gonna lose control when their driving and crash, but, interestingly, when they get anxious when their driving they exert more control, they signal they pull over, they break they put the current.

work on the side of the road. That's actually a sign that they have quite a bit of control over the situation. susan deserves way more than a few minutes of pontifical. In for me. So I encourage her to seek out a medical, professional she likes and trusts because she doesn't have to live in this world that she says is so small and anxiety can be chronic, but it's also treatable, and so I have a lot of hope for her and again really want to validate that she did what she had to do to survive, and I hope she can now update her coping to match her new situation I wonder whether you're undervaluing what you ve just provided as participation- I I I think There was not only a lot of practical and. universal wisdom in there, but perhaps the most useful thing was the hopeful thing was the last thing you said, which, as you know, I

that email- and I maybe this the projection on my part, but I thought okay me we should it. Maybe a lot of people think I have to everything and I I can't can't fix the some stuff with this and I'm unhappy what from you is actually not are you you? You can fix us it's kind of in the middle Belgrade that, yes, anxiety, can be chronic even for people who feel like they ve tried everything and there's always hope, you're universe stuck. You can always make your world bigger even if we were bound by our genetics or many decades of history and experience I like to think of us having range that we are able to look at this picture that we have a boat that is anchored to the ocean floor,

but even that anchor allows that boat to drift within a certain range, and so, if we're feeling really start where we have a lot of symptoms, we might feel like we're at the lower end of what's possible for our range, and we may never get to the other side of that ocean, but we can get to the end of our range. What is available to us new genetically via genetically history, our history, we may not be able to magically turn our experience in sight. I look at tubes up, but you know to mix my metaphors. We can get to the top of our range in our little boat. There is always room for change right, so I appreciate you saying that, but I use the word. fix. This problem is not the right word, but we can boost our capacities to cope with whatever

genetics and life have handed us in terms of our anxiety. It doesn't have to be utterly permanently cripple right right, exactly nazi. That's it greatly to put it one last question and I've had a lot of people. Ask me about this, and I don't know if this call as a social. I bet it is a social issue. And it is making a lot of people anxious, which is how to talk to people about vaccines. When you may disagree then how to navigate getting together or not getting together if you ve got different points of view on the vaccine. So what do you have a view on best practices here? So I think there's a couple of levels. This question I think they're wonders the negotiation of like what are we going to do? Are we inside or outside the ribeiro mastery? Not in there? We can set our boundaries and talk about what we are willing to do and what we're not to do so. I think you ve got all boundary setting

can happen, there sometimes were torn because someone close to us. Has a very different view than we do on the vaccine. Somebody who we value their friendship or our relationship I don't want to let that go, but you know can certainly in our in our crystal ball, foresee a fight coming or due to foresee some near real disagreements down the road so there. If we try to talk to that person, I want to emphasise, perhaps dont send them articles Don't give them facts, probably that will lead to an argument or were digging in coming through when's of social anxiety, but also just humanity. People want safety, understanding and trust, so meditated is, I think, our fantastic at listening without judgment. I mean this is part of practice tried to not not judge right.

I think, listening with compassion. Listen without judgment is something that folks who meditate are probably uniquely suited to do so that but then also to people share your own doubts your own. ability, abilities Like you, I was worried about how fast the vaccines protested well or like oh yeah. I was worried about you x Y, see rather than saying like look here is the science or You know. I got that I've seen an unfair and to express your own doubts and vote bill is because it shows that you trust them enough to disclose that and you get it shows. Unlike you, it is where the same rather than saying yourself as an export or like a teacher and a student dynamic. It put you on equal, ground to share your own doubts and vulnerabilities? I used this technical lot when working with point to fight. If there's some, once like, if we have, I don't just,

restructured, an old thought that wasn't working for them and there they have this new new belief. Whatever they seem ambivalent about it like what you know but present. Do you believe that out of seventy percent, I believe I'm a good person who is allowed to make mistakes right so talk to me with one side of that. And then talking to the other side of that, I think applied to folks were vaccine hesitant most people have some ambivalence, and so I think asking and then genuinely listening without judgment to both sides of the ambivalence. can be really helpful because again it connects you through a willingness to meet them on an equal level. You're, not up up as an expert, and it shows that you're not judging them, which makes you a safe person to talk to

might notice them along more effectively than trying to preach to them. Would. recipe, I'm hearing here. Fur Engineering get together with people who may have different views you do on the vaccine is less well judgment easier said than done. You may have the judgment, but you don't have to express it so listen. And without lecturing your preaching, speak about your own feelings, your own mixed feelings, your own fears and then once you figure What the common ground is make a plan from their that sounds great. There was a wonderful cliff notes, version of the ministry soup. I provided there ass, the steely skill I have this had been nominal, and I really appreciate using a lot of time to talk to me and, by extension, the listeners for folks who might want to learn more

two books, pike, social media website. Can you plug whatever you got I stand against are concerned the web at my website. headaches and dot com and their bay can find some free resources too help with social anxiety, and also my book how to be yourself quiet your inner craig, can rise above social anxiety, which is the reason no reason. I was on the show, thank you down and also a new video. People learn in different ways, and so the video course has a lot of their greatest hits from out of yourself, plus some new techniques that I've been fine tuning over the years and we'll put a link to the website in the show notes. So if you don't have a pen handy, it's all good ellen a pleasure to reconnect thanks again great to see you. Thank you so much for having me on again. Thank you to Ellen and a reminder to put everything

we just talk about into practice. Go check out the taming anxiety challenge in the ten percent happier app. The challenge starts Monday june. Twenty first download the app wherever you get your To join the challenge, they show, which is immense. In undertaking is made by some incredible people, including Samuel Johns, dj cashmere kim by comma maria or tell and jan plants with audio engineering by ultraviolet audio As always a huge shout out to my a b c news, comrades, ryan, kesler and Josh Cohen will see you all on monday for the final episode in the series with the great meditation teacher, leslie booker. A prime members, you can listen to Ten percent happier early and ad free on amazon music, download the amazon music tat today or can listen early and ad free with wondering, plus in apple pie cas before you go

solid and tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at wondering calm, slash servant.