As you know, we're in the middle of a big series on work here on the pod cast, which was a good time to point out that, even if you love your job, you will experience stress. However, stress does not necessarily have to be a bad thing can actually be something you harness to your own advantage to help you navigate stress this fall. We ve taken one of our most popular courses from the ten percent happier a course called stress better and we turn it into a meditation challenge. You will learn from a renowned stress researcher, at columbia, university, professor majuba, economic and the amazing meditation teacher, seven selassie, but teach you how to use stress to your advantage. It's a seven day, stress better challenge and kicks, on Monday September eleventh and you can join over on the ten percent happier app right now. Every day, you'll get a short video, followed by a free, guided meditation to help you establish or reestablish your meditation habit to join the stress, better challenge, just download the ten percent happier app wherever you get

apps or by visiting ten percent dot com. That's all one word spelled out if you already have the option to open it up and follow the instructions to join, if you're, not Already a ten percent happier subscriber you can join us by starting a free trial that will give you access to the challenge, along with everything else, on the app for maybe see this- is the ten percent happier podcast dan harris? Hey hey a question for you: Given that social media has been blamed for rising levels of anxiety, depression, loneliness and political polarisation, is it possible to use this technology wisely? This event incredibly urgent question for a long time, but perhaps never more so than right now, as we had into an election and it's the question we're gonna dive into today with randy fernando, whose featured in a new netflix documentary called the social dilemma, which is

all about the many alleged pernicious impacts on facebook, twitter, instagram at all, Randy's. The co founder and executive director of the sun here for humane technology and is also a long time meditated? We start out, talking about what he sees as the dangers of social meat but then we get into a fascinating discussion where he takes off a ton of techniques informed by his knowledge of buddhism. For you, using social media in a way that won't cause you to lose your mind here, we go randy fernando alright, randy nice. To see you thanks for doing this great. To be sure, thank you. So much to him just by way of background I'd love to here a little bit about you, how did you arrive at this confluence of adaptation, slash mindfulness and the perils of

social media and technology. Generally, it's been an interesting journey. I was born in sri lanka to a very buddhist family, so my parents, both in theory and practice, are just very serious about buddhism and it's been very for all of us in terms of navigating our lives, it sort of the framework that I use and we use at home, my wife and I, when we discuss life and its problems and challenges it's a great framework, has been really helpful. I'm very grateful to my parents. They taught me the precepts when I was five, and so I've really not here look for anything else. To give me the guidance, so I actually basic meditation about each eight from my mother and programming from my father said? These are the two threads kind of diverged and then came back together and I am quite unexpected ways I would say in my career, I loved programming. I loved making pictures appear on the screen,

and so I just followed that I just happened to pick something that turned out to be really relevant as a group and I ended up at cornell to study computer graphics and in that same passion took me to in video in silicon valley. I got to manage a bunch of different software projects and to authorise three three in computer graphics books. So that experience you know, which is one of those weird things you get to do in silicon valley. At a young age. Out of my masters, I had just come out and got these great opportunities and around the same time I got back into meditation and me but his study, I was reading a lot of supervised and meditating, which were seriously in my lit twenties and at the same time I started volunteering, and I started looking for things I could do, and you start learning and that process led me to end up helping to build a non profit called mindful schools where I served us.

Executive director for seven years, and we ended up bringing mindfulness to nearly a million children globally and now I think that numbers several million kids and at the same time I started doing retreats regularly because of that work, and so I was doing one to two retreats every year and I think that was all really helpful and then I did have co funding the centre for humane technology, which has done harris and is a risk, and I haven't actually interest on right after he was on sixty minutes, and he is getting this flood of interest. It was crazy and he asked me to help to kind of corral that and organize it, and that's what led here and so throughout my career, I've really been exploring all of these different intersections. I am very interested in helping the deeper buddhist teachings to survive, in a world of mindfulness that often is very watered down, and I think there is a lot of wisdom there.

And so I serve on the board of spirit, right, meditation centre and also a small or called the buddhist inside network, both of which are really dedicated to preserving these teachings. I'm really pleased and I'd say pleasantly surprised that all of these things have come to you. there with the work at centre for human technology, in a way that I had never anticipated, can say more about that How? What is the centre for humane technology, whose Tristan Harris? How do the buddhist concepts, get woven in there and in practice, etc. Editor sure so the centre for humane technology is a non profit organization of deeply concerned technology and social impact leaders, and we are focused on addressing the harms of

social media platforms, so from outrage, polarization, addiction, depression, political manipulation and, ultimately, the breakdown of shirt truth, which is the one that keeps us from solving everything else. When you try to think about what is humane technology. But what is it that you want it's easy, often to define what we don't want. It's easy to define what's going wrong in detail here is the problem, and then you get to the solution and it often much trickier and more subtle, and I would say where the buddhist concepts really come in, for me personally is humane technology. First and foremost, I think, needs to reduce suffering and, from the buddhist point of view, that largely is gonna be related

Addressing greed and hatred instead of perpetuating them and reducing ignorance as well, but a lot of technology right now actually does the opposite. Instead of reducing dream and hatred, it promotes the because that's a lot of times. That's the way to sell more product. You want people to be dissatisfied with their situation with what they have and that's a lot of, I would say bad marketing is all both and good marketing is looking at what the values are that someone wants and what with is a real problem and often that much narrower spectrum and results in a lower revenue. So humane technology reduces them, bring it has to be valued centric. It has to look at what people are meeting in their lives, what their values her. It has to recognise that technology is not neutral, that anything that we build

is an expression of our value system and also when we place it into the world when it lands in this water right that everyone swimming in the text Algae itself ends up conditioned by that water, humane technology has to be sensitive to human nature, has to recognise. We have certain physiological boner vulnerabilities and that's just how were built in most of that is about survival- is just about helping the human race survive is kind of our evolve. We, I would say we're not. really you towards happiness necessarily, we have to work to that. We're evolved to reproduce and perpetuate the species, but when we think about happy, and well being and reducing suffering, often that require some work and other characteristic of humane technology is. It builds shared truth instead of fighting us. This is a huge problem right now. We're people

more and more divided the lot of the technologies out there, especially social media player, Arms are, dividing us, often did unintended ways but It's a big deal and the way they are designed actually perpetuates that division and is even by the underlying business model as well, and the last thing is humane technology has to account for the unintended consequences that it generates interest a minimalist up and again this is related to the buddhist view, because We just see everything through conditions, one thing conditions, the other thing, and it's just like this endless stream of conditions that are perpetuating. So when you have the privilege of designing software that is going to be used by millions or billions of people,

have to be aware that there are some serious conditions that you are perpetuating out in the world, and so it makes all the difference when we're trying to design more humane signal, so you're right that we will dive more deeply into solutions once with walk through the problems associated with social, medium and a more grain. Wheeler way. Just to not let it hang, though you referenced this individual tristan harris, he showed up on sixty minutes. I remember that peace was an anderson cooper piece about how social media is designed to hook us tristan. If I recall worked at Google and then left and started become a critic from the outside. Can you say more about him and your work together? yes, as you said, he was a google and what he saw when he was a google was the immense responsibility that these engineers were. Having that every time each keystroke every decision, every product decision,

was shaping the way. Millions and actually billions of people were using products, and he started to see this attention economy, game that was being played and then actually there was this race to the bottom of the brain stem. Has he likes to call it where the companies are competing for our attention in order to monitor? is, that became very clear, and so then he started to speak out more and more and others were speaking out as well. He was is very articulate in how he expressed these things and he was able to translate the experience that people are having on their phones, that they can relate that is very resident for them and to trans I that experience into words that said? Oh, that thing you're feeling on your phone is actually part of a bigger problem and that's what

so different versions of that and that bigger problem first looked like. Oh, this attention thing stealing our time, stealing our attention and then the bigger things started to look like await its impacting our relationships, its impacting democracy bits impacting polarization its impacting through its impacting our ability to actually solve other problems, and now, at this level it starts to become existential, because if you can build common ground to solve a problem, you're going to be in big trouble as the human race to you and me don are patriot and a new document area, netflix called the social dilemma. I watch its very interesting den unsettling. What would you describe as the basic thesis? I think, with special

about this film is it describes how social media works and harms it creates, as told by the insiders who help to build the products of people who work. there and saw from the inside? What's going on? There's a lot of credit, Only that comes with hearing what people who saw people here, the inside and saw what was going on in the decisions and the thinking and now can see it ten years later, roughly the consequences, what has played out as a result- and it particularly true in a time when all of us, especially children, are all these platforms. More than ever, we need to understand how they work. What are the implications? What are the mechanisms? How does the actual attention grabbing work. What are the different types of notifications or internet scroll or the kinds of the way choices are presented to us in menus all

he's, determine our behaviour and then to understand this process of how actually we're the product trade. This is something that does this rush cosette back in twenty eleven. We are the product, it's actually our attention and our behaviour that is being sold by its access to our brain. Its access to next thought. That is what is being so. That is what is being often, and it's not only being auction in a general way, it's being auction in a very specific micro, targeted, highly optimized way. Where the third party can say: hey I want to buy this ad. I want to target this specific group of people they live here. Share the demographics, here's, the gender, here's, the race, here's the age share their interests, all the fun stuff ever when shares on facebook. That information is then used to target you right in all the other platforms and

it is not only the information we shared directly. It is also the end mission that is inferred so the algorithms also in information about a so. For example, it can infer your wealth level So when you are an advertiser, you can choose this, it's so detailed, but you can choose things like you can guess someone's net worth and say: hey if they're high net worth send this ad to them, and so like that there are all these things about what their interests might be, and all of this gives access for a third party to get access to your brain specific intervals. While you are scrolling through a feeder interacting with the product, something jumps out, rightly it's just This is the moment that you might be susceptible to a specific kind of ad, because the platforms

all is to deliver this out in a way that makes you click on it, because that's for the transaction takes place, and I think this is a very dangerous model and its very very easy for malicious third parties to hijack that and to use it for different motives. So no question we ve seen, wishes? Third parties game the system, but just to play devils advocate. Isn't this creating an efficient market for advertisers to reach people with products or services that might be useful? for example, some of the targeted ads and not on social media, that much for reasons that we'll get into, but sometimes like a pair of shoes, pops up and I'm thinking, actually need a parachute, and that's a good parachutes. I'm gonna get that and by the way, just full disclosure of ten percent happier advertises, in some of these platforms, and isn't it a good thing that we can figure out who our target customer is and reach them with something that's going to make them happier

it's not always a conflict. I think a lot of it comes down to again. The route principles of is increasing. Greed and hatred and delusion or reducing it, and in some cases, if you're offering Amy. Titian up to people and you're, sending it to the right people and its europe and the whole model behind. It is sincere that part of it is not a big problem one of the things that would be really helpful, is if the platforms, let someone explicitly signal, I'm looking for a meditation up right now- Let's all inferred- and this is where it gets very mighty and very dangerous Instead, I was able to say: ok, I met you looking for a politician outbreak now. Can you help me find that, based on what you, the platform know about me and about the world now that kind of relationship as as sweet as it sounds, can only work effectively if there is a very high degree of trust, essentially

Some kind of a fiduciary relationship, between you and the platform to thank your lawyer has to protect you your doctor has to protect. You has to do What is in your best interests and in return for this to work, you give them all kinds of information they have access to everything, and that's the point but in scarcely no time and time again that these platforms have failed to protect people? In fact, they sell that information. It's easy to game. Some of it is, is definite Therefore, some of it is other people using the system. As designed to manipulate in creative ways that were unanticipated. So then, each time the platforms going patch up that part, but one of the key premises that we make and to fill mix is that the whole stage the whole time from the whole ground is all

he tilted and its tilted because of this underlying business model. If you follow the money, you can see that the incentives are not aligned between the people, who are the platform just happily sharing their information and interacting and the added tasers who are buying access to their thoughts and their behavior changes. That's the problem so windows incentives are aligned natural. you're going to have distilled that is not in favour of the actual person using the platform. And this becomes true when you look specifically, for example, at each of the different areas, were homes from sunday to mention a few interesting factories which I think are very relevant just so Everyone understands what is at stake here. In mental health. From twenty sixteen to twenty nineteen, there has been a drooping in the number of cosmetic surgeries. For the sake of looking good and social media

For social relationships and valleys every time someone treats any, I like it has and quality so like interacting with Syria, for example, the more they later dehumanize actual humans and treat them poorly children under age? Fourteen spend nearly twice as long. We take devices as they do in conversation with their families to the time is about three hours, eighteen minutes per day, with truth and facts fake news spread six times faster and that's because it is so many more degrees of freedom is often so much more appealing and when you pair that with another factors, is really troubling, people tend not to change their minds back once they have been given a factory and it's kind of planted in their head he's pretty

hard to change their minds back. So even if you track down everyone say alright, alright, wait! Hang on that thing you saw is not true, you can try to do it, but it's a lot harder. People are loyal to what they've heard. This is this idea of first impressions. With children. Children who have been cyber believe are three times more likely to contemplate suicide than their peers. There's a study that track two the children from the age of two to five and showed with higher levels of screen time should. greater delays in development across a range of important measures, including language problem. Solving and socially action, polarisation and extremism. Anger is the emotion that travels fastest and furthest on social media. Every word of moral outrage added to a tweet increases the retreating by seventeen percent. So these are some of the exam,

all right answered this- it I'm just trying to explain why we say that the platform is tilted by default, because if the game the attention and anger travels furthest and fastest and faint newsprint six times faster. What is going to dominate on these forms it becomes very, very obvious. It is exactly what we end up see and I think that's extremely dangerous. So all of these, you can read more about all of these at leisure, documented, come and actually are podcast podcast call your undivided attention. So it's a humane, tiktok, cub, slash, podcast, so yeah, it's a problematic situation outside in get down on the anger and the fake news I made in the film the cab

kate of experts all very credible and, in my opinion, prognosticated quite horrifying, weighs about where we're heading as a global society. Given the pernicious impact of social media on society that we can agree on a basic set of facts upon which to to have a debate? Anger wins out, look, what's happened in burma with the rohingya muslims and the buddhist majority they're carrying out at what appears to be a precaution. Genocide fuelled by facebook allegedly said it prognostications untoward civil war like all over the place. So there's there's a lot to unpack here. So what is that people, I have always had their perceptions, their hatreds, their desire for fame. All of these are there. The films

not saying social media is causing all of these things to happen out of the blue. What it is is an accelerator because it is now the infrastructure is a big part of our communications infrastructure and is also a big part of how we make sense of the world. It's taken over a lot of journalism because- if the ability is based on a different currency, it's not based on how well did you research your article, it's based on how many likes and comments and shares is it having how much influence is it having? And unfortunately, we just explained how bad that second, trick is much more related to sensationalism, to anger, to fake news and You end up in this world where everyone says things like. Oh, my god, saw the greatest think. The most amazing thing I have ever seen yesterday that kind of language people use all the time.

and that's the kind of language that now has become necessary to get attention because once competing you're saying this is the cutest cap video I've ever seen. You ve got to see this because the guy seen cat videos dan. I have seen tat video is yours will be great, but I've seen them all so to get someone to rise up and see the next time you have to use language and with cat videos the consequences are not that great, but when it comes to domestic civil war or disagreements, It becomes a major issue and it turns out that protecting our physical borders, we ve already got that right. We ve got the united states has probably a trillion dollar military read many trillions of dollars are invested in that, but in contrast, the digital borders are not secure and it's a lot easier to penetrate those, and actually it's pretty cheap

the order of hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars you can start dividing people you can plant narratives, you can make think groups and invite people to think events in all of these things have happened. And so you end up with people physically showing up two sides, both of whom were manipulated, and I think all of us, I am sure all of us have fallen for this stuff where, because we care so much about the topic We ended up forwarding something without checking right. We were just like. Oh, I guess that has to be true, because we want it to be true. We can all be easily manipulated. We can all be part of the problem all too easily with very good intent More of my conversation with randy, fernando right after this, you have heard about master class for years, but I've never actually, acted it out, which is now making me feel a little bit stupid. But the news is the folks at master class are now

during this show, and they gave me a subscription and as I look at this as I realise that this is a great place to feel a lot less stupid. The lineup on this is incredible: the people there recruited to teach it just kind of blows. My mind: they've got aaron, sorkin on in writing, Gordon ramsay, I'm cooking. Also, Thomas Keller, they ve got anna win tore on creativity jon kabat Zinn on mindfulness and meditation, which is probably interesting and attractive. people who listened to the show. No I'm chomsky on independent thinking, staff, curry, basketball. I could go on. I can't believe I've been sleeping on this happened as I look Many of these videos there so well produced so informative and really really type so that you're not wasting a minute you're just get, these warnings and a very attractive and interesting and entertaining way with master class. You can learn from the best to become or best anytime anywhere and at your own pace, annual membership started.

ten dollars a month and you get unlimited access to every instructor. Thousands of online lessons exclusive content, insights and much more get unlimited access to every class and right now, as a ten percent happier listener, you can get fifteen percent off when you got a master class dotcom flash ten percent, that's master class dot com, slash ten percent for fifteen percent off an annual membership master class dot com, slash ten percent. When we think of sport stories, we tend to think of tales of epic on the field glory, but the new podcast sports explains the world. Brings you some of the way this and most surprising sport stories. You ve never heard like that

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q and on and pizza gate and I'm thinking to myself. Well, anybody who believes any of that stuff is veto, gullible right to put it gently, but you're. Last statement before I started talking and the film. It also seem to be. Arguing that even those of us who consider ourselves to be smart or whatever can be hijacked by fake information, even if it doesn't mean believing that their running a pedophile ring out of the basement of a pizza parlor, that's exactly right, I think, It's just our own good intention, our own well, meaning of wanting to show my gosh. This has to be true. This matches with my worldview therefore I want to share with my friends. Has everyone needs to know this? At least we should do the diligence of looking at the actual story that were sharing reading these skimming it and saying. Ok, that seems credible. It's got reliable sources behind it.

And we share an interesting infographic share the source. Other people can take a look and see all actually that's been but do you know they can have an intelligent discussion about it? So it's increasing the friction, the little bits of this than is parallel to mindfulness a thing increase the space. A little bit increase the space before we react, increase the space taken, what we're doing and respond with a little more wisdom. I think that's that's one way to do now, return again in terms of practical solutions for wise use social media, but before we really really diving on that, may just ask about one area of sort of the pernicious effects of social media that you talkin in the film which is mental health, and we ve got on this a little bit. But how strong is the corals sure between social media use and adverse mental health outcomes such as depression or anxiety, the offer

that of addiction is really is well being its love. You have to have the stability inside to be able to overcome right of these feelings and when we are feeling vulnerable when we're depressed or angry or anxious, that's exactly when we are most vulnerable to these the rhythms it specifically those kinds of mental seated, make us more vulnerable to doing all of the things we just discuss straight: the sharing of something or going back to post, because we want that. We want some support. We want some acknowledgement were few. down were long agency, because, something where we want people to see. I like it. I, like you you're good, because we don't feel good about us. Those in that moment our own. Well being that the reservoir is love, it's not everyone. That effect, in a large everyone's affected in a small way, but the people who end up in more vulnerable situations, then get it.

In a large away. It's easy for someone to get sucked into a rabbit, hole and end up sort of an extremist rabbit hole for eggs, ball when they're, looking when it's the middle of the night, there cognitive abilities Sort of lower right, you're, tired you're, not as discerning and you're more suggestible ere, I see some some negative impacts. In my own mind, when I use social media, as I mentioned, I try to be pretty sparing. I will occasionally posed instagram, but I delete the app afterwards, I'm not really on facebook. I do use twitter, which I don't find up too badly, but I reuse it pretty judiciously, but instagram particular I notice, if I'm using it regularly, are two things that I see that are deleterious to my mental health one is again obsessive about how many likes I've gotten on whatever I've posted and too

is that I start comparing myself to these carefully curated images from the lives of my friends and colleagues, parties, and I was an invite to or whatever, and so I can see how both kin fuel, depression and anxiety. I'm just curious. Do we know for sure are there, studies that really show a correlation in terms of depressed anxiety with social media use. Yes, there are there I think one way to understand this vienna beyond the studies is to look at it from a training lines and say, Again from his point of view- and I look at it very much as conditions in single care, how are the conditions affecting us from them? what were born are a key. For that reason, our existence is highly condition, so our genes right, which is what we come in with our genes, are indeed- I are relationships are experiences. All of these things are highly condition, so we have to be very thoughtful

about what are the ways that technology is training us individually and as a society. We have this intuitive understanding, the laws of social physics, the thing that matter in terms of your voice and your ability to communicate effectively his legs comments and shares, then you or to put it together in your head and kids- are wonderful, are doing this. They learn very quickly these kinds of patterns, and they start adapting them, but so do adults, and so in certain types of language, as you said, certain types of curated post, curative pictures, that's what you learn. That's what you observe and you sort of integrated into your brain and say: ok, that's how this works and I think, has very dangerous, downstream consequences, because and the our value system so system so been studies recently on how basically being an influence her or seeking.

Fame has got much higher on the list of things that kid's care about from visiting years ago and its natural this it is practical, its other subjective judgment. The fact is that in this economy, if you want to, if you have something useful to say- and you want to save- you need to have more attention in order to achieve that, and it's pretty hard because of all the things we set about the default till to achieve that attention. If you follow a path of being modest, being humble being simple, being accurate, really accurate is really hard. Yes, I'm sure you ve seen this trend, and so then you end up in this era of click made headlines because as the pinnacle of fight, is even leave. The headline out of the headline produces put the doktor tat, the one thing that

need to know about this. Election is, and you just wait for the quick. It's crazy. so, given all the harm macro and micro that you ve just described from social media is there a way to use this technology wisely, given that it so pervasive people needed professionally, they needed to keep up on their free If you drop off facebook, you may not know what your family's up to you made out here about the family gatherings or the parties that you actually do want to go to. That will be healthy to its end. Is there a way to use this stuff in a healthy way that conducive to human flourishing, or is the only answer, abstinence, delete the aps, because certainly some of the people in the movie are suggesting don't use it and we certainly don't let our kids use it there's a lot of facets to this. One is age for short, because I think for kids

This is at a young age is exceptionally dangerous. I think that's one thing that one line to draw in the sand, one of the beautiful things about this film is that it allows everyone to have some shared understanding about this problem. There's not a safety, in bringing up this topic. You're, not Maybe the weird one at your parent grew or anywhere, because millions of people have watched it, including teens rights of that safety the film brings to allowing these conversations to perpetuate is huge as the first piece. I think one of the fundamental problems as we ve talked about is that the platforms are tilted rights of the child. Is there if you're on it, you are going to be subject to that tilt in one form or another, and you may think ok, like I, can overcome these things and then in many cases that's true. We can. We figure out what's true or not, and we in our we won't be to manipulate it, but

however, the game is always progressing and already we ve probably made MR unfair sure. I know I have shared things that were true, because I was excited behaved in ways that, I think, are not the way I would want to be here, because I was on line because of these specific conditions, and all of this is only going to get worse with the facts right now we can fake video, we can fix audio, we can think text are usually there's all kinds of stuff that we are inevitably going to be vulnerable to, and I would ask the question: moron Why are you going there? Why are you using it? What are you seeking from it? So well, Example of where facebook, actually, I think, as useful as if I'm about to see someone,

haven't seen in awhile or talk to them. You can go and facebook type their name and look at their scroll. Look at their feet, see what they ve been up to that works great, but the problem is, most people go back to the platforms and they left the default feed be their experience. So when that's your experience, what happens? Is the sort of this replacement of the timeline and the sequence of actions that you are intending to do, and that gets placed with a different sequence of actions that you are not intending to do, and sometimes you can drift really far out. I think you tube is the best example of that If you go to youtube too car like just open an incognito window and go there and you ll see just on the default homepage. So many interesting random things that you want to clear up. I saw one which is really using. It was a little coffee cups made with legal right.

Amy, micro things and as a girl? That's really cute I'd love to click on that, and you can. every single one of those is interesting in one way or another, and the more it knows about you, d, better it'll do at finding that. So that's the experience you want If you go to youtube and you're looking for how to learn something new skill, for example, you do this granted that you can go you can get, that information watch the video and then you should close it. This is where it gets tricky. There's otto played recommendations and our eyes are sort of. We can't help ourselves seeing those things and single why that could be interesting to let me just click one more video and then it's a bunch of time. right that experience. Everyone is familiar with and I think the challenges the firms are not well incentivize to solve that problem. To make such that when you come, you get exactly what you want and then you leave

So if I'm hearing you correctly, One way to use these platforms wisely would be to be pretty specific and intentional about it. So if you want to go to youtube learn how to tie a tie or how to hang up a channel or whatever it is. I just I just honey in writing then you can go there and look for that. But then beware. Air that you are facing off against supercomputers that are really good at getting you to stick to the site so get if you can go and get which are looking or and then turn it off and then also with facebook. Same thing, I heard say that you know if you want to go, find out what a specific fund is up to before you see them again, go look, but if you're just gonna get sucked into

the random timeline, then you are likely to get manipulated. Yes, that's for the trick is, and I think one of the real challenges is. For example, twitter has lots of good news from people who are experts in the field, for example many exe in many fields use twitter to share their insights desert latest inside the stuff that hasn't made it into articles or into wikipedia or any other reliable source. Yet and If you want to know the latest, you end up going there onto twitter, but you. It'd make a pretty good argument that this sort of very short, limited character, tweets and sequences of tweets is not the best way to communicate. Real insight or to have deep conversations, that's the problem. You are using it outside of the fundamental way it's been driven to

There are many well intended technologies at these companies who are also frantically trying to patch. All of these things there trying to pull out all the different fires there trying to patch all the different problems, but they are unable to change the actual default tilt up the platform because they don't have access to the business model to change the way it actually works to change those actual incentive structures, so their forced in this sort of in some ways an impostor the battle to just put out fires constantly and find new ways of putting out fires when we think of this is Is it a good idea for all of us to just have a megaphone and go into public square? Everyone start talking right. It's just not natural way of interacting?

and so you end up in a set of assumptions that just don't match what actually healthy for people and that works and a lot of different access. So let me just say a few words about twitter and just to be clear. I have no investment in twitter and dime certainly open to the many many critiques of twitter, but I don't find it personally. Problematic. Yes, I find it deeply unattractive that people that I know who are otherwise sane or on their just basically stealing a lot of venom. I think it brings out deem the two positiveness in if that's even a word in otherwise com, reasonable people so

see that critique and I do see it in my own time I, but I don't feel that sucked into it. When I look at twitter, I find it very interesting for me a couple of levels. One is a very interesting what's happening with a pandemic and lots of epidemiologists on there and you can go and read their threads and it's very interesting. I am also very interested in the election and I like to read perspectives from people on both sides. Sometimes the hot takes or too hot in their it's too hot, but I like seeing what articles people or posting and because by the way, then takes me into a deep dive into something that is well researched and not you know just a few characters, etc, etc. Edit by the way I have one other thing that I like about twitter is that random people can reach out to me often they're, saying nasty things but they're, saying really nice things and I can and they're asking me emitted a technical meditation question. I can take a few minutes to

sir it so I don't know what do you think about as I sold out of my deluded wooing might take on twitter? No, that's great, I think you're you're take on twitter is accurate for you again that I think the point is about the way, the platforms or tilted by default, if you're careful If you fury correctly in the way you're using it, is very different from the way a lot of people use it, and so I think that is helpful. There's a great website by the way called all sides that come that will show you the left center and the right for many different articles that justice is a way to see, of the different views. I do this to attack you wanna four recommendations is too don't go to them a sensational opposite sides, but go to the ones who representative. viewpoints and train understand. I should be going to the comments and I tried very much to understand what going on, because I think ultimately, this is about

understanding, other people's viewpoints. That's what we're missing in the overall political landscape. We don't spend enough time understanding the viewpoints of other is there a way to affirmatively, decide to use social media and to be a vector of positivity. Just on a personal note, yesterday, the day before were according this was my son's first day. Of in person school, where living in a little town where you have the option remote or in person, and we had let him do remote for the first couple of weeks and then he decided to go in person, and so I went to drop em off and he was freaking out. He was so scared everybody's in masks, and it was really heart and his cousins in first grade She was with me at the time and being very supportive and ultimately coaxed him to go into the school, and I got this picture of her carrying his

it all the way down this long hallway that I was not allowed to go down walking alexander into the classroom, and so his party was remarkably brave and her party was extraordinarily kind, and I had the thought I haven't done it yet, just because I'm lazy, maybe I should post this. You know like I hereby interrupt your political, desperate. oh that you're in or whatever you're in right now to show. Something really cool that the six year old did for a five year old yesterday to all long way of just saying. Is there a way to use social media with the intention to be positive? Yes, So, let's talk about it. I think there's a lot of interesting caution there, especially as usual. Using the buddhist lens to analyze it, and I think this is exactly what we should be talking, but at the same time,. There are a lot of tips that are really helpful at humane tiktok com slashed. He control that are actually somewhat unconventional

and different from the typical tipsy you here, but for now. Let's talk about the buddhist analysis of this, certainly my version of it. So, let's start with what it feel. like, as we scroll so on one hand right. There's a cat, video super cute, there's a political thing, super heavy there's an inspiring picture of the two kids. And mentioned, then there's an ad somewhere. I see your brain is really getting sliced around and I definitely feel that when I it's rolling through. I don't find that to be a pleasant experience. I I find that to be a very sliced experience and paired with that. We have to look at what is the intention that we came in with what is our intention when we post one really simple exercise? We can all do right. Your intention when you this right it along with the post at the bottom, here's. Why am posting

when you do that? A little bit deduce stop answer, because a lot of the time the posts are related to well the deep one. I'm feeling bad about something, I'm feeling anxious or depressed or angry, and I need some it I'm trying to make up for that and not looking at that I'm making up for it in a different way. So then it it takes you to this point where you say alright. Well, there's two options: one option is to create distance between us and the ices. I think that is wise. I dont think of these things is a binary thing, is kind of a spectrum and knowing yourself. You have to create the right amount of distance, probably it's more than you think, and then the second part

to address the underlying instability like. What's the problem underneath, how do we become more stable, underneath and actually, I think, it's very closely related to the realm of horrors, which I think I heard you ve been talking about on the podcast as well. So this idea of love kindness, compassion, sympathetic, joy and equanimity when we are practising those we end up weakening our sense of the self. That's the thing that causes all of our problems room, so an understanding that ok are ourself, we we're just Distingue, that's the condition its very much in flux, it's always changing and its shaped by the conditions outside of us had shaped very much by our relationships, and this is why it is so important when we look- and we say that we have a kid who are their friends at its important for us to look.

Who are our friends, and the reason is that they have the largest footprint in terms of shaping us but now there's this invisible friend right or unaccounted forefront, which is your phone and that's actually around you more than a lot of these other friends. A lot of these other companions and its training. You all the time This is also about more than just what you went to the platform for its about all, the different interactions. Every time you click a button and your instantly gratified it reduces our tolerance for when things don't go away. So back to this connection idea deep connection with there is a very good solution. Strong way to develop protection for ourselves and a deep connection to others is best achieved in person in video on the phone, not online chat or texting.

Because, unlike shouting and texting, are highly interrupted sam chatting with you on facebook I'll, send you a message, it'll sibling, and then you will look and then start typing something. Meanwhile I am looking at something else and then its is bleeding and then I'm brought back and then it's ok. So now I'm typing and while you're seeing my dad's you're looking at something else again, and so this process keeps repeating and in effect, you're doing a great disservice to your friend, because you're doing repeated interruption thing which, from a mind from this point of view, is the exact opposite of what we are trying to cultivate in terms of justice. A healthy, sustained attention, sustained mindfulness, we're slicing it up constantly and also practically speaking, which you also find is tat. When you do this kind of chatting

you end up spending a lot more time for very small number of words. It just takes a long time to do well, really appreciate you come in on talking about wise, healthy ways to use so for me we're going in. I wasn't sure that there was going to be any affirmative answers to that, but you gave many with the appropriate caveats. We will be putting links everybody to the various web pages that Randy cited in the show notes. If you want to go check out the center for humane technology will make that easy for you and we'll put a link, a document on that flax, rainy anything. I fail to ask you before we close here no centre stage. I think we covered a lot of things. Let me just take a quick scan and see if there is any other big thing we should do should touching. There is one thing

it's the topic of what did we do after watching this film? I get it I really concerned. What's next and and how do we fix the system? One thing we can do to be really helpful, is watched the film with others and have precision with them. So then, after that, there's this move if there's a movement for humane technology, that's building up. You can sign up at humane tech, dot com. That's good to take us to this kind of the bigger impact, the bigger change that we all want to see. Randy. Thank you to you and your team for doing all this work really appreciate it. Thank you for coming on today. You are very welcome. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for the opportunity, Big thanks randy really appreciate him. Come on one last thing before we go, we as I hope you know, care deeply about supporting you in your meditation practice and fear

providing you with high quality teachers is one of the best ways to do that. Customers of the ten percent happier app say they stick around specifically for the range of teachers and the deep wisdom they impart to help them given their own practice for any one new to this app, we ve got a special discount just for you and a fear and existing customer. We thank you seriously free or support to claim that this count go to ten percent dot com. Slash reward, that's ten percent! One word all spelled out dotcom, slash reward. Finally, big thanks to the tea, who worked incredibly hard to make the show a reality on the regular samuel jobs is our senior producer. Moorish lighterman is producer, are sound designers that point of ultraviolet. Audio maria were tell us our production coordinator, who get a ton of massively helpful input from our tv H. Colleagues, including nato, be gent point been reuben and less levin and finally big. Thank you as always

By abc news, long time, comrades, ryan, kessler, Josh co will soon on wednesday for a special post election day episode we're going to record this one late at night, once we have hopefully some sense of what's happening. with lama rod owens. You may remember from back in june when the most popular protests we ve ever done. So, excited have mama ride back on at a time when we're gonna need em seed, a prime members. You can listen to ten percent happier early and ad free on amazon, music downloads, Amazon music app today or you can listen early and ad free with one repurpose in apple podcasts before you go. Do us a solid tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at wondering dot com, slash servant. They promised

I could go to the left from prime video's, the lord of the rings, the rings of power and I'm narrating a special episode of whose amazing life it's a podcast for kids. That lets you experience life, the eyes of someone who changed the world and you'll have to guess who it is: here's a hint he has been say, musical talent is music has travelled all around the world and his story is tat. You do that to me his story in english or and this by your play, listening to peruse amazing light on amazon or wherever you get your podcast.