It's, the ten percent. Have your part podcast on your host dan Harris. Allow my fellow suffering beings how we doing today, quick story before dive in here many years ago, my wife and I were in the middle of an infertility crisis- and I was talking about this with Joseph Goldstein, the great meditation teacher and friend of mine I was telling him how upset I was, and he was pretty sympathetic, but then he said something that mildly annoyed me or maybe confused me. He said if it's not one thing it's another now initially, I was little.

Put off by this, but as I've molded, this comment over the intervening years, I've really come to see the wisdom of it. I've always got some kind of problem, usually several of them honestly, and even though I fantasize about how, as soon as I solve whatever problems on my play right now, life will be friction free. The mind always finds something else to worry about. I know plenty of people whom you know had huge success made all the money they could possibly make and are still worried about stuff, so, even though we have an awesome and healthy son or infertility, crisis resolved successfully is like my life is problem free. If it's not one thing is another, so today we're going to talk about how you re frame your problems as puzzles, which, according to my guest, can be a huge relief. It can also. My guests says: make you more

creative, clearer and more persistent, just say before we diving, I'm not a huge puzzle guy, I never got into word or, for example, but my guest asia Jacobs makes a very convincing case for the benefits of developing what he calls a puzzle.

Mindset if, if you haven't heard of a may J as a kind of human guinea, pig is written a series of books where he does these grand experiments. For example, he lived according to the rules of the bible for a year he spent a year engaging in an insane fitness routine things like that, so his latest book is called the puzzler. It's about his obsession with puzzles and the many mental health benefits that can come from engaging with puzzles, so will kick it off with a J jacobs in just a moment. Ok time for a feature. We're now calling bs p blatant self promotion. Here we go over on the ten percent happier app. We are releasing to brand new meditation collections on some of your most requested topics. Those include meditations about coping with chronic pain from sharon, Salzberg, as as well as meditations for people with h, D or other,

Flavors of neuro divergence from Jeff, worn, download the ten percent happier apt to day wherever you get your apps and tap on the singles tab. Are you looking for a note of sanity and the morass of social media? Follow me on instagram tik tok acts linked in em all over the place. Now I'm drop in quick videos on everything, from meditation to dealing with difficult people and, of course, sir, a lot of cat photos. Links to my social accounts are right there in the show notes. a few weeks ago, several families that we know got together we'll stayed in an air being b on the side of a mountain, a beautiful fall weekend and it was really magical. I love a hotel now and again, but when you with a bunch of families, we really want to spend time with, I think it's great to all, be under the same roof to not have everybody retreating to their own personal lairs. At the end of the day, it really was a great bonding experience and I ll:

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The honourable also includes thousands of pod cast, including ten percent happier alongside popular favorites and exclusive new series. Some of my favorite podcast include making sense with SAM Harris the political scene from the new yorker the happiness lab with lorry santos. The powers that be daily with peter handy have it hosted by Karin wish. And former guest scott galloway. The watch with Chris ryan and andy green loam, the political gab fest slate new members can try audible free for thirty days, visit, audible, dot com, slash ten percent or text. Ten percent to five hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot com, slash ten percent or text. Ten percent to five hundred five hundred to try audible, free for thirty days, audible, dotcom, slash, ten percent.

The show is brought you buy better help. This time of year can be a lot and its natural to feel some sadness. And anxiety, all the holiday gatherings and activities come with stress therapy, though, can be a bright bought, something to look forward to help you feel, grounded and armed with some tools to manage the whole thing like any family paris. Family has its drama, so talking to my therapist can really help me both prepare for big events and calm down afterwards if you are thinking about starting therapy, give better help, try its entirely on line, convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule, find your bright spot this house, season with better help visit, better help, dot com, slash happier today to get ten percent off your first month. That's better help. Hd Lp, dotcom, slash happier a J Jacobs. Welcome to the show

delighted to be on the show. I'm curious to hear, as it may be, a jumping off point about your interest in puzzles in preparing to do this interview. I've seen by the fact that I actually don't think I have much interest in those I don't do. Crossword puzzle to reward all actually hosted a failed game show once I enjoyed not the failure part, but the actual show. And it was up and running I enjoyed. It- is like a trivial issue. I enjoyed that, but I don't find myself doing trivia or any you'd be partitioned, games much at all. So I'm curious why this is such a passion, for you will first of all I think that you are a you know, a secret puzzle, lover. It's everyone loves some kind of puzzle, so we're going to figure out what kind of puzzle that first of all life is a puzzle and your show is a puzzle how to become ten percent happier. So that's my pitch. You aren't a puzzle lover. I have always loved puzzles since I was a kid, so crossword puzzles and riddles and and actually sort of one

genesis of me getting back into it was a few years ago. I was the answer one down in the new york times, crossword puzzle land as a word now, I was life. This is the greatest moment of my life. My wedding was lovely, but this affairs, the holy grail am salaam riding high and then the next day my brother in law, sent a very. Brother in law email. He did congratulate me I'll, say that, but he also said you should know you were. And they saturday new york times crossword puzzle and You may not know since you're, not a cross border, that's the hardest puzzle of the weak harder than sunday. All the answers are totally obscure. No one supposed to know them. So his point was: it does not really a com. This is proof that no one knows who the hell. You are So then, I'm all sad because you ve talked about this on your show, a lot, the negative bias. I'm really good,

finding the negative cell. It was all I bombed out, but the ten percent happier twist is that I that story on another podcast gameshow actually, and it happened that a new york times crossword puzzle maker, was listening and decided to run sk. You me and put me in a tuesday puzzle where I totally don't belong, that's for like, Lady gaga level faint. So that was the happy ending and that that was one of the things that got me back interested in puzzles. And I thought why not spent two years to do in a deep dive when a around talk into the craziest, most brilliant puzzle maker the scope of the cia participating in the world jigsaw puzzle championship which was fun, but a complete disaster

and writing about puzzles and including puzzles in the book, because he can have a book about puzzles without puzzles. That would be depressing I'm just trying to think of the ideal rebuttal to your brother in law, be like you, to a on Saturday? Was you actually? It was ass though they did it. For me, I mean I couldn't have done it better rebuttal than than having them. Let me Intro tuesday, although I will say the guy who made the puzzle said, I had to make the down clues really easy, since so he got a little kneeling in there to your wife two years of your life on this past. Do then I know I know it does transcend just the passing dopamine hit head of,

solving. Even a saturday crossword there's something deeper. Your point due to here, oh yeah, well, the sun title of the book is one man's quest to solve the most baffling puzzles ever from crosswords to jigsaw ass to the meaning of life which I'm reading now, because I couldn't remember that long subtile, but I Do you think that it's really in your we'll house, because a lot of it was about happiness and even meditation? Some people talk about how doing jigsaw puzzles is so meditative gets you outside of your mind. But for me one of the big things is: I love this quote by Quincy jones, the musician. Someone asked him his life philosophy and he said something like. I don't have problems

I have puzzles, and I loved that, because to me he was re framing it. He was saying problems are such a negative word and it gets. You stressed out immediately. Its negative and puzzles is very solution. Oriented it's almost fun. It's like. Let's roll up our sleeves and try to figure this out so re framing my life's crises as puzzles has been a huge help for me in everything from business puzzles. Putting the book together was a puzzle, but even relationships. and one of the big puzzles. Now I find myself very stressed about the political situation in just the polarization. So if I'm talking to someone Who is on the other side from me by default was, let me try to me now argue them into the ground and that doesn't work

that doesn't work on made, doesn't work on them and just gets you more frustrated so instead trying to re it as a puzzle let's try to figure out why we differ. Why? You believe what you believe line, who I believe, what I believe, what can we do to change it? if anything is there evidence I could present or you could present, let's solve this together as a puzzle, first of all, it's much more fun and less stressful than yelling at each other, and I think it has a much higher chance of creating something productive. So I yeah, I do think puzzles are more than just a fun trivial thing, although they are that they can really change your life. These example used of talking somebody with whom you have a disagree. Political disagreement is really great, but I've heard and I've tried to preparation- was this advice, that

it's best when you're talking to somebody who you disagree with to move into curiosity and try to figure out what they think and I think there's some data to support this. But taking into a next level, which is not only getting curious about what they think. But then inviting them into mutual problem solving right. Well, I love what you just said, because actually I like a good rhyming, trace phrase. Not always they don't always work, but one that I heard this is actually during the pandemic and I was watching a child psychologist. Do a webinar casino I needed I hope I get in during the pandemic, and this guy says when your kid is, throwing a tantrum, don't get furious, get curious and I was like I love that. Don't get curious gift risk so that it has been a little weight. You just reverse that you just see you just don't get curious, get very santa.

to give you your eye for ninety five percent of the time. Don't get serious, get curious, so yeah. I love that and korea. So the ingratitude. I think I am I to favour it, I don't whether you call em emotions, are drives or states of mind, but those two may are the ones I try. Or but again- and you know what you said about talking to me- I love everything you just said, but boy you said earlier about the talking to somebody who disagree with and by the way they can be in politics or can bees thousand disagreements talking to your kid, a colleague whatever to move beyond just curiosity- and I don't mean to diminish it- has like mere curiosity to is a massively powerful move to go to Kuba city, but then to go to mutual problem. Solving hey, let's attack this as a puzzle together. That seems like a really potentially a move with a high success rate. Oh yeah- and I do you think

that there are things we could collaborate on. Even if I have different values than the person the bigger value is that most sane people want the world to be happier they want the most good for the most number of people and is just we disagree on how to do it, and sometimes we disagree on what their good is, but we do have somewhere were working from the same place. So, let's we outlets dig in trying to solve it, so you you're heard of this as the puzzle mindset key sailor, but more about that yeah. That's just it! It's trying see the world as a series of puzzles instead of a series of problems, and it has made my life much much better, because I'm always. You know. As I mentioned, I definitely have that negative mindset where

I hear a hundred compliments and one insult and I focus on the insult. So the personal mindset is how do you solve for the negative mindset? That's a big puzzle. How do you sell for the negative bias and really one of my books, the book right before the puzzler, was all about trying to you're out ways to solve for the negative. It was called thanks a lot and- and I went around the world thanking a thousand people who anything to do with my morning cup of coffee, so the barrister, but then I went to south american. I think the farmer everyone in between the logo designer the truck driver. I went wide so I like the guy who sign the road in a guy who painted the yellow lines in the road, so the truck driver could drive his truck with my beans

So I wind have gone a little white, but it was wonderful. That's a great puzzle, solution of how to get rid of or fight the negative bias is tis to list the hundreds of things that go right every day, as opposed to the three or four the go wrong. When I come back to fix a thousand, it's me later in the inability lily stick with stick with the puzzler out for jumping ahead? No, no! Please I'm glad you did it wasn't on my list, but now it is tat. You got that and the puzzler and that in the puzzle, mindset I'm just curious. Do you think that For someone like me, who doesn't do the crossword or word all or jigsaw puzzle that if, in fact, I dating gauge with those kinds of what you might consider to be a sort of more frivolous and pleasurable activities could help me scale up to developing a puzzle, mindset in the rest of my life,

I mean I do I'm a little bias. I don't think it's the only way, though one of the things I do every morning for ten to fifteen minutes it is, I just break storm ideas about anything Ninety eight percent of them are terrible ideas that never, see the light of day and it could be anything can be random. Algae take a phenomenon and try to think about it in different ways, and that does the same thing I think is puzzles it's all about creating new pathways in your brain. I am her meditation, which I'm not that good at does similar things, so it doesn't have to be puzzles, but you have to try to get out of your mental wrought in any way that you can, and even you know, the cliche thinking outside the box. It's from a puzzle puzzle was then I don't know if you know that nine dot in the square- and you have to try to connect the dots in four lines.

the pencil, and the only way to do it is to go way outside the box with your pencils. He'd do diagonal lines so anyway, the can get your mind out of the rocks and think outside the box. I think, is super healthy and puzzles. Our one, that I love, but I'm not saying to be happy. You have to do, although I would like to say you have to read my book and listen and cast it, but you know the brief digression on meditations that you brought it up, and I say this at the time saw a this. Is me being repetitive, but when I hear somebody say I'm not good at meditation. That tells me that you're doing it correctly I'd love to hear. Thank you. That is a good reframe. Well, you know what you're doing puzzles correctly said that that does not fair com there because I'm your actually meditating, even if, if you think it's poor intermittent,

I am not doing bustle so don't that. How did you it correctly, but I appreciate it As you know, it is a real frame and I we take us Lucian oriented results, oriented type, a mentality into meditation. trying to win at it, but it is not. This activity is not congenial to that kind of attitude, really it's about sitting down, trying to focus on one thing? Often your breath and then surrendering to the fact that you're gonna get distracted over and over and over again and the mere it's not merely important thing. It is an incredibly important thing, John, stability to notice when you become distracted and start again and again and again that is correct. Meditate and then it's humiliating and by design, because the whole point You should get familiar with how fuckin craig see you are so that all of that inner measure gas does in own. You is right, and I love you saying that is not a game that you can win

a few years ago, you remember we u than nintendo thing. I got that for my kids and they had all sorts of games like Henderson bawling and they actually had a meditation game where you had to sit as still as possible, and you had rack up points for being still, and I actually it. I, like put, I don't like being bag instead of me. That was totally still so I got in the back. score ever at meditating, but it was funny because it seemed the exact opposite of what you do. It It adds that reinforces all of the pernicious misconceptions about meditation that its first of all, you don't have to sit still to meditate is walking meditation, so for people like me, I am naturally very fidgety in the latter folks with adhd have trouble sitting still and so a slow walk meditation is great practising the buddha talked about for forms of meditation sitting lying down standing and walking also here in the hut doing bad meditation. If you

moving around so to send a signal that debt that a sunday you can win out and be it is about being stock still further, this period of time. Is that just turns people off to the thing? I think right, if you approach it as I sometimes Jovan. Like a video game where you can't move forward. If you want to move forward, You have to surrender desire for results and then everything everything unfolds from there. I tell you another. I don't know if it's meditation, but it's also a lot about em, mindful ass, an awareness. I feel that there is a big overlap between puzzles, and mindfulness unawareness, because I have a section on em on where as well, dough and visual puzzles, which I love fun fact, by the way, where While, though, is one of the most band books, american library association list of banned books because a few years ago there was a each scene and one of those

women on the beach was topless, but you couldn't even see it like lying face down like a little side boob, but it was enough to the test, someone off but anyway I despite that love, where's wilder, and I try to take it as well. the lesson in life as well because there's so much everyday life that I don't see that Don't notice- and I just take for granted. So sometimes I try to pretend that, what's in full to me, like I'm looking at it now has a page on where's, waldo and just looking for, of the weird fun beautiful details, that I would normally just gloss over so to me, that's been good lesson and in noticing visual puzzles have taught me how to notice gold star. Yes, I do.

I think everybody, like an opposition, went up another. I never said I wasn't a hypocrite. I mean I've never heard of that yeah, but I mean really. I really, I think, that's true. One of the skills that were developing through meditation is the capacity to notice Joseph Goldstein. The great meditation teacher talks about an pm's and p m noticing per minute and the the deeper you go into meditation. The more notice things might come up, then definitely other ways to develop that skill, whereas waldo seems like fair game and by the way, where as well, that unwanted trashed where's wilder, which is lovely, but there is some beautiful, more sophisticated visual puzzles that are for grown ups and in fact there is a famous, I think, of the sixteenth century. Painter named bruegel. I think I'm pronouncing it right. Who does basically did where's waldo paintings that are fantastic

while were attaching agenda to to our past comments. Let me just add one last thing about meditation before I move on, which is that for the record, I think it is amenable to game affiliation. I think just has to be and in the right way, so one small example is that some of the meditation apps there will well let people get streaks and I'll show you how long you been meditating, I think, is a real upside to that, because it makes it fond and people want to be consistent. People text meat. Streaks or send me d, amazon and social media and that's all cool. I think that there can be a downside to which it can lead to a sort of obsessive agnes and that's probably, for some people not cheaper, helpful I think there are other ways to kind of game. If it too, you know, do it as a group to make it a group endeavour. Let's all do it, let's see if we can do thirty days

eight and talk about it. So I think there are ways to make this into something approaching a puzzle. Without you know saying you have to sit still for as long as possible and you win right. I love that. Let me just tell you my meditation lack of practice, because I have gone through periods where I I have you know, I'm gonna do five minutes every more. now and I'd be interested to know whether this is good or bad or we don't use. Violence is like that, but I dont have a particular time. I do it. I just find when we're I'm bored whenever I feel myself being born in, like you know what this is the perfect time to focus on my breathing or just noticed five things that I'm looking at and five things, I'm feeling with my body and three things that I'm hearing, so if I'm in the back of a new, if I'm waiting for the elevator fine any time, I'm where there's like those two minutes space where

instead of letting my mind wander, which it would wander to something annoying. Someone said I, like you, know what I'm gonna use this for some sort of half assed meditation, where I focus on my breathing or who are non noticing. So that's my semi practice that I, doing now at another gold star. I think it's great I mean I often think about something that the aforementioned joseph Goldstein says all the time, which is whatever works whatever worse for you and, I think a mistake. The people in my position often make innocent think that I have personally made is to be overly dogmatic and prescriptive about how and when you should meditate and I've really moved away from that over time, and so for sure I could say a few things tat, maybe encourage you toward a little bit of formality, if what you're doing is work for you and your life is reasonably high,

We then go with it yeah reasonably as long as there's that qualifiers there's ups and downs, but I do try to look at the fall prey to the negative by, but you do have a daily practice, I'm guessing I do you know I I sit for about an hour every day, not all in one chunk, but I usually like this morning. I sat for like forty five minutes and then later today, I'll do a little bit more. Recent walking meditation before bed to get the ants in the pants out. So yeah I'm pretty committed. But this is, maybe it where I'm I'm just not comfortable nice. I said before I never said it wasn't hypocrisy. I don't want to be the power like meditation, avenger evangelical, who doesn't practice with some diligence, but not all that. That's not the reason why I'm doing it. I get a lot out of the practice and I'm totally fascinated by it and I'm in the middle of my third book about it and so has the whole podcast not just about meditation but such a huge part of my life. I don't think this is what everybody has to do. I often tell people

you know one minute: daily ash is a great way to start right. Yeah. I think I add up to at least a minute and my little microwave meditations I'll put a link in assurance. But we did. We did a whole episode about a form of one minute. Meditations and my my wife did the interview with me and I found it very compelling, as did she, and I think she still doing that break so yeah yeah. There are lots of ways to go out. This and people are time, starved and busy. And have also to hang ups, and so I think it's just about working around that right. Well, I have to go stars. I'm gonna go for three

After that, it's limitless. I give them out like Oprah with cars, so it's less expensive as a as a production costs coming up. Aj Jacobs talks about creating a puzzle that will take billions of years to solve. How puzzles can help us during dark times and the dark side of the puzzling world. This holiday season, don't forget to give yourself a gift, how about treaty self. The wholesome, delicious, convenient meals with butcher box. They take the guesswork out of finding high quality meat with humanely, raised beef, pork, chicken seafood and more delivered to your doorstep, which iraq's partners with folks who share their high standards and truly care. About how animals are raised. Plus there be corp certified

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Download the via tore up now and use code via tore ten for ten percent off your first looking in the ep, one app over three hundred thousand travel experiences. You will remember, do more with white or and forget. We ve got a ton of new meditations over on the ten percent happier app, including meditations, on chronic pain and sleep download the ten percent have europe today, wherever you get your apps and get started for free is thinking of meditation you at least according to terror, who kept me for this interview pairs, one of our producers. She said that you have something in your book called jacobs ladder which free you is kind of a version of meditation. Can you walk through the shore? Well, as I said, a lot of people talk about how to take sides are meditative cause. It's just you know you put on

a cast ten percent happier or the puzzler with a g Jacobs or you don't you put on music and you just those pieces clicking in such a lovely, mindless, beautiful ritual and it doesn't have to be Well. As I said there are these speed jig sars, who are really into it, and they are not mindless they're, like figuring out all sorts of strategies, but along those lines I read about something called generational puzzles or eternal puzzles. They are sorta like rubik's, cubes, they're, very physical puzzles. You have to turn things into things to solve it, but these are so hard that you have to twist them. So many times that knew you could never do it in a lifetime, so their generational puzzles

you hand them down to your kids and I actually, with a with a designer in the netherlands, designed they'll biggest longest, most eternal puzzle. Ever it's called jacobs ladder, and it's this tower. It's not in my room anymore, but it's a tower about three feet tall with about fifty little knobs and you have to turn the knobs in such a way that you can pull out this steel rod from the top, but the trick is it will take. I'm trying to remember it was something like forty five quintilian turns to actually do So if you do one per second, the universe will die a heat death before You actually are able asylum, so in one sense it it's the most ridiculous waste of time in history, but other sense. I found myself doing it in a very meditative way like there is.

Goal because can never gonna get there. So I might as well enjoy the turning and actually that just catalogue, with a little thought in my brain. That is kind of, I feel, is ten percent happier fish. Ah, I interviewed the guy who's called the godfather of sudoku. He didn't invent sudoku, but he popularized. It needs this. Japanese man and I asked him. What does he think a puzzle? Is he said a puzzle can be summed up in three symbols, not even three words. Three symbols and the symbols are the question. Mark forward arrow and the exclamation point. So the question mark, as you see a puzzle you like what the hell is, that fusion. The arrow is that working through and trying to get to the ah ha moment and ass, the exclamation point, but he said this

grit proposals and in his opinion the secret to life, is that you ve got to love that arrow and the arrow is never just like a straight arrow. It's always curving in going in all sorts of directions, and you gotta ace than arrow cause. You may never get to that aha moment, but the joy is in the solving is in coming up with new ideas. I just thought it was a more fresher way to talk about. You know it's not always about the destination. It's about the journey so to me, yeah it's about the arrow, that's what puzzles are and that's what life is, and that seems to be the driving force behind Jacob's ladder, cause you're, never going to get the expo right. That's as one big arrow and you gotta love the arrow. You said you spent two years trapped. when the world investigating puzzles or some of the craziest experiences you had?

well. One. I went to the headquarters of the cia, which took many months to get permission, and is this beautiful campus by the way it looks like you know, a college in new england college, it is home to one of the great unsolved puzzles in the world and always on the list of top ten unsolved puzzles me. It's a statue created, I think, of as thirty five years ago, and is there in the middle of the cia campus and the statue was created by a sculptor and a cryptography, a guy who comes up with secret codes, who was retiring from the cia They thought it would be solved in like three days or weak. It has still not been fully solved. Thirty five years later, then it's a bunch of symbols, on this wallace undulating metal wall. It's a bunch of letters and numbers and.

Even the cia, where the whole job is to figure. These things out has not been able to fully so they ve cracked. Some of it therefore part and they ve cracked, what three of a mean and their these quotes about life and mystery in one of them is like from the guy who discovered king Tut tomb. About wonder, but anyway there's a part that is still unsolved. So I went there and there are thousands of people who Even after thirty five years are obsessed with this puzzle, I'm not gonna lie I go on these chat rooms. Are the. these mailing lists and they'll get every day theory and I think it's it has to do with the end of the wind talkers from world war two and has to do with moby dick, and it is just hilarious. No one gets to go for very rarely so when I was going, they were all excited there like looking

See, like you know what color the grass is here and and listen to the sound of the babbling brook and see if you can figure any so. I had all of these secret missions to accomplish. Of course, I went there and it was cool, but of course I didn't solve it. It's been ten for thirty five years, but loved the experience, and I guess there to take lays one was I just love the the grit of these guys, women and men who spend hours every week trying to crack this code. That is tenacity like I'm helping my kids with a math homework or I used to now. Too complicated. I can't help them at all, but if I helped a merino a few years ago, I might feel like I'm going to give up. After two minutes, these people have been going for thirty, thirty five

here's that I find inspiring if crazy leg, it could be the worst use of human mental energy ever, but it's also inspiring. So I loved that- and I also love the sculptor himself, because he's still alive still gets contacted all the time by people that is. Is it did I get it? Did I get so now he started charging. You can email him your solution and he will answer you yes or no, basically, that's it, but he charges fifty dollars per gas. So he's probably the best paid writer in america because, like you just no that's not it and there's fifty dollars, but there was just one of them. I also another adventure. I went on his eye. As I said, I went to the world jigsaw puzzle championship in spain where there were forty countries competing, and it was hilarious. I mean these

people. The idea was you had eight hours, eight hours you were given for pretty big puzzles like a thousand the two thousand pieces, and yet finish the puzzles in those eight hours, I went my family as team usa, We represented the united states, we came and second to last I was my wife still I stole from her but yeah we at least sucked, but we had a great time and there's something lovely about seeing people doing something at the height you know, even if it's something might be considered silly like these are the lebron James' of that thing and I loved it, and I love talking to them about you know. How do you become one secret, his specialization, like these teams of four people, the russians? They were the ones who won they had

one person who is in charge of the edges, another person who is in charge of the monochromatic that was her specialty like if it was blue sky. She was lying all over that because you look for the shapes, not the colors. In that case, so is all about. How do we solve problems in creative ways, even something that some people think is silly linkage it's a puzzle. You wrote the book during covered a lot of people during covered. Were you doing games puzzles at home with one another? Do you have any thoughts on whether puzzles can be helpful during trying times while they generally during the depression, the great depression? There is a huge saw a puzzle boom the and then I saw it again in covered, and I actually I started doing the book right before covered so the timing was unfortunate in one way were, but also it happened to be a prime time for puzzles and then at the.

and of the pandemic. You had word all which was just a phenomenon, and I think that got a lot of people hooked, and I think still on this golden age of puzzles, which is why I sort of splendid off into this daily puzzle podcast, where we're trying to do sort of wording. your ears. Every day, it's like a new puzzle with a celebrity guest and, as I said, despite your puzzle scheme, this is we're gonna. Have you on and convert you two puzzles by it is, and it does seem to help in times of crisis,. Can puzzles ever go wrong. Is there a dark side of the puzzling world? I think so personal it. I mean it's venza There's this phenomenon, which I didn't about until raining this book, but you might apple Fania, which is is called when you see patterns in random noise? Finding patterns is what makes us human you know, that's why we survived,

so that we can do now when the snake Russell's in the grass. We know to run away, that's the pattern and that's good the problem, as we are programme to fine patterns and so times. We find them where they don't exist and puzzles all about finding patterns and people who love puzzles are pattern seekers. The problem is, as I say, app ophelia. When you see patterns that don't exist and to me that's q and they are trying to solve a puddle that doesn't exist. They see all of these pieces together and they put together this puzzle that is non existent of these crazy cannibals in the highest levels of government. So I think we have to be wary of empathy, a pattern finding his great

without it. We wouldn't survive. There would be no science, no art, but at the same time you know check yourself. You got to look back and say: don't fall in love with you Hypothesis don't be like this is the only way it can be, and I saw this happen puzzles like I was on this. There was a nationwide puzzles scavenger, hunt, type thing and as a clue about a mouse and the plain- and I was so convinced that it was a reference to store little to everything I saw confirmed my things. This has nothing to do with that. There has just crazy talk, said, be careful of fire falling in love with your own hypotheses, you ve gotta, have a flexible mind, hold your hypotheses loosely in anything in puzzles, but also in politics and in relief

Ships always have an idea but be open to the fact that it could be wrong. In most cases, it is falling in love with your hypothesis is like the opposite of the puzzle, mindset which is about intellectual humility, exactly which, I saw the dark side of its being curious in the wrong way. You ve decided that you ve, you ve, solved the puzzle and then you go and look for confirming evidence that may or may not exist. We made the link repeatedly to meditation, but there's also a link to be made to buddhism writ large in San buddhism. They talk about something called the beginners mind, not approaching things like an expert who already knows Or thinks they know what's going on approaching it as a beginner and that this seems like a great way to inculcate beginners mind absolutely yeah. I love that- and I am here

The fan of beginner's mind I try to have that. Every day I mean a good puzzle will take advantage of your previous bias and you can only solve it if you step back and have beginner's mind so lag I'll. Just give you one example: a British crossword puzzle are super tricky. They are all about. Weird word play, and so, for instance, a famous british crossword puzzle clue is: is this for letters g g, ass, gags, gigs, and the answer is it's actually along, like a long praise to word, phrase and I remember coming across this- I'm like kegs gags, so my biased was you now? That's gotta be a word for something: it's gonna stand for something there's an airport. I think in new zealand with the letters g g. Yes, I remember something like that. I had all these biases of what-

coffee, but only when you adopt beginners mind do you stepped back and say: well, maybe it's none of those things. Maybe it's. I shouldn't even further guess on that it has a meaning- maybe maybe it's just the letters and if you re arranged them and all its eggs is scrambled, exe, and they had that aha moment, but I would never have had that if I hadn't stepped back and said I'm going to pretend I know nothing about what could these four letters be so yeah? I love that you referenced earlier that these two years of writing the book and going deep, if the puzzling really improved your life. Can you say more about that? You talk about. You know how you handle people you disagree with, but what about around the house with your marriage, with the maybe an ornery editor at your publishing house or how has it help

in other ways: oh yeah. Well, the same thing is lay. How do you solve this problem? Sometimes the best puddles are. You have to turn on its head? He have to turn whatever it is upside down. Sometimes literally sometimes you'll have a puzzle and if he turned upside down, you can see that it spells out victory here whatever. But I try to do that in my life I tried, as sometimes turn things completely around and see. Will this help and one trivial examples seems sort of trivial? Is I'm not so good keeping my clothes when their worn in the hamper them three sons, so there is clothes all over all over the house, and I would spend sometimes a saturday, like you know, twenty minutes going around bringing an armful of I putting it in the hamper going back out, bringing another armful, putting it back in the hamper, and I said what, if

did it the other way when I took the hamper with me and then the clause in that way, thereby even now ten minutes in my life thousand example of selling? I may Henry ford, for instance, who I have issues with terrible anti semite, not a great person, but he was a brilliant business. Man hey reversed the thanking, instead of having ever going come the one space to build the car, he had an assembly line where the car moved along and everyone added so people stay in place and the car moves as opposed to the car stays in place and people move so that kind of thinking can be extremely powerful coming of age. They talked about how his gratitude project made him better at talking to himself and how

pretending to be a good person, actually helped him to be a good person in real life, at least most of the time. Are you interested in learning how to improve your health? Most of us? to enjoy longer healthier lives, but with so much advice out there. It's tough to know what to follow. entered the zoe science in nutrition podcast one listener and fan put it in her review. Zoe lines and nutrition is a life changing science based myth, busting podcast, that's a must: listen for anyone who eats food and wants to understand how it affects their body. If, like this listener, your keen to learn, what's fast and what's fiction in the latest health and nutrition research then too, two zoe science and nutrition joining

millions of listeners as we all here from world leading scientists sharing insights to help us improve our health find zoe science and nutrition wherever you listen to cast dell. Cyber Monday event is their biggest sale of the year shop. Limited time deals on laptops like this. irish innovative ex ps thirteen engineered to do it all on the intel evil platform plus save big on ultra sharp monitors and top brand accessories shop? Now adele dot com, slash deals to take advantage of financing options and get free shipping. On everything. Again, that's del dot com, slash deals for huge savings. Today, gear, I know your ability to conjure the puzzle, mindset

or beginners mind is blocked because you feel, like the stakes, are too high in other words, your nervous, anxious, freaking out and euro migdol the stress part of your brain is online and what susan expression you can open a jar of it, muscle in your arm is tight does that ever happened to you. Oh yeah, absolutely I mean is the constant struggle. It's like every things like meditation are avoiding the negative, biased it's a practice. It doesn't come naturally, and sometimes one trick I have just in life- is talking to myself out loud, so sometimes I'll. Do that to help, if I'm in a stressful sedulius, Allow me like this is the worst thing that ever happened. I can't believe it and then I'll say, listen to yourself must come down, take a step back trying to frame it as a puzzle. There is a solution. It may not be perfect solution, but there's a solution.

that will make it better. Let's try to figure it out so yeah. I am a big fan of talking to myself, because when I hear my thoughts out loud, I realize sometimes will that sounds crazy. This brain is run out of control, so yeah. If I say to myself: ok, let's figure this out as a puzzle, That is one strategy to help lot of data behind that strategy. From what I can tell even cross, who has been on the show, will put a link in the show notes, wrote a whole book called chatter about the potential, two rewire, your inner dialogue by counter programming against the negativity, biased that we are wired for through evolution, self compassion. Research reaches. A booming area of psychology pioneered by woman named kristen. Neff was also been on the show a couple times. A big part of that is, bout learning how to talk yourself. The way you talk to a good friend and, of course, there's cognitive behavioral therapy, which is not so

I'm an expert in, but it is a field of psychotherapy, schools, modern psychology and It's all about challenging the dictatorship of your thoughts. So you might think that some weird little quirk you've got that you've stumbled upon something that there's a lot of eminent for that is nice to hear what I'm actually huge fan of kind of hey real therapy. I've been an ant for many years. I think you're supposed they vienna just for a couple of months and curate, but I just don't you think I need to be reminded of these terrible thought habits. I have planned that most humans have, and also one aspect of canada. Behavioral therapy is, is how here be Hey you're affects your thoughts, they're all linked, and there has been a huge theme and, much all of my books, for example, to go back to the thanks a thousand. I would wake up in my default grumpy mood and I would force myself

to act as if I was thankful. I would force myself to call the company that made the bags that the car He was carried in or write a letter of attitude and for an hour or so forcing myself to act as if I were grateful that it does start to sink in, so I loved the quote, which I certainly didn't make up. I looked at on quote inspector, which is a great website and it's not clear who made it up but it is it's easier to act, your way into a new way of thinking than to think you're way. Into a new way of acting, and I found very powerful in my life. suleiman, name mood data. This guy has been very influential for me. She and her husband, damn carmen, teach communication, skills kind of that, their based in buddhism, but does there quite secular, very clear, simple and easy We stand skills and she has said to me before that you know you can do years of therapy to become a different person,

and maybe that'll work. She not denigrating therapy. She actually is a therapist or you can learn communication skills and speak differently to other people and yourself and you might find yourself sort of reverse engineering, a new person and what's one communication, skill you have found an effective. I talk a lot about something called reflective listening witches. And I do it a lot on the show, I haven't done it with you today that I can recall, but when somebody says something to me often, I will repeat it back to them. Brief version in my own words are kind of like the headline, and this does couple things one is it gives people the primordial play you're, a feeling heard and understood. Second,

allows me not to jump to conclusions about what they're saying, because we keep talking about the negativity by us. Often we can hear things in what people are saying that or not there or they didn't intend for us to hear and suggest repeating back. The bones of their message can help me respond wisely to what's happening instead of reacting blindly says is one little hack. I love that reflective listening. That's one little fact, I'm trying to do it right now, just left, leaning back. You said that another gold star they set number three citizens. Look back at his gratitude book. What's the take away for those of us who are not gonna, call a thousand people and thanked him for our morning coffee? How can we integrate this? The dovetailed Are of what you learn into our lives. Yeah there are a few, take allays I'll. Give you say too,

because, as you say, yes, most people are not gonna go around the world, thanking everyone for a cup of coffee or your paradox. Whatever one as you can do it on a very small scale. It doesn't have to be a thousand people, but I found, for instance, I liked a logo of some now I don't know what it is like mango Jews they bought at the grocery. And I have tried to notice those things now when you talked about noticing and unlike ha someone their job was to come up with. mango logo in and they did a good job, its funds kind. Clever. If you go on spoke or any other social media and just now go to the website of that company and say I just why pass along like attitude for the fun logo that whoever designed and you up live like people are so grateful to hear ninety five percent of the people there.

like a famous artists who sign their name. There are sorted, usually anonymous so little things like that's another one was When I thanked the barrister first, while she thanked me for thanking her son- and I felt I should thank her for thanking me for thanking southern hake on a little dangerously but overall I asked her what what's your job like and she's, like you know in some ways I love it in some ways. It's super hard because first of all, she's dealing with people, pre caffeinated There is not a good mood, but they won't. Then trader like a human though want look up from their phone they'll just gave their phone in the square, the credit card goes through, and so it's Well, like she's a you know, a vending machine she doesn't have an identity she's just like even if Let me in the eye for like two seconds and acknowledges my humanity that is so important. So I realized I am

I'm that asshole, who has done that many times. We're not even looking at the person. You know I'm not expecting a nobel peace prize, but just like making a two. Second f to look someone in the eye and acknowledge their humanity is good for me. Mental health. I think we're wired for social interaction, but also in the human thing to do so that is just one little thing that you can do, but I have a whole bunch of other things that I still try to incorporate into my life, because it did changed my life for the better. This gratitude, adventure, the other just to amplify those points, could, over their actual at the first one was, if you go out of your way, to look for awesome shit and then thank the people who made it die at least to beneficiary one is your awesomeness radar is going to get way more finely home

and that is a great way to counter program against the negativity bias. The second is you're going to get the benefit of all of the gratitude you'll receive for thanking people making. Other people happy will make you happy, and I mean that's just yeah, the virtuous or on. Located human matthew, virtuous circle. The second thing is also backed up by date. I know it keep doing this to you, but barber fredrickson is done under the great work that micro interactions that's her term. You can hear talk about it because saying this again will put a link in the show nuts two black conversation being a little repetitive today, but you're getting me fired, my your firing, my imagination. With a lot of these things, you're saying I'm gonna blame it on you, Barbara frederickson talks about how we can get so much stop amene out of just talking to people that we often overlooked. So it's not just the right thing to do. It's not just you know what makes you less of an asshole is actually good for you. It's a, as you said before, a virtuous cycle

talking of people, a barrister strangers in an elevator on the train, people doing little work around your house, people or cleaning around the office, all the folks that I'll just speak for myself, I tended to overlook. Really making it a habit to make eye contact and talk to them has had a huge impact on my daily life. I love that I also love what you said about further the hidden beautiful things in our lives and and now as one my big takeaways was these hidden masterpieces that are just lying around everywhere and, for instance, I felt I should thank the people who made the cup and also the people who the lid. I no longer used plastic lives, but this was a couple years ago I should have known better than to, but but anyway, I called the guy I who designed the lid and it was so trusting the talk to him, how much passion and thought and care, had gone into designing this lid things that I never thought about. Lay he made a really

call in the centre, because coffee is a lot about the sense of smell So we wanted to make sure we were getting the aroma. The way that the little house was designed, was to make the coffee flow in a in an even way- and there was this fascinating all that went into this, and I would have given a zero thought. If I had forced myself to talk to this guy wants you got your act together with plastic. Did you come back and tell him he's a monster? Thank you for ruining the world. That's my thanks. Are you? Can you talk Surely you you, you ve brought us, and I am grateful to you, thank you for bringing as to exactly whereas hoping to go once we talked about the puzzle to talk more generally about your work is a we ve talked about thanks a thousand. Can you talk a little bit about your general approach to work? You ve called yourself a human guinea pig. What I think

back to what we are talking about the beginning this this idea of curiosity, It is what you have, which is why you're so successful. I love this guy wants interviewed, Alex her back the late, great jeopardy host and he sat a quote which makes no sense on the face of it, but I totally get in which he said something like I'm curious about everything, even those things I have no interest in, and I love that because that is true. So what However, the topic I like to dive in and go super deep and be curious about it, so I've done on gratitude on puzzles. I did one on. I grew up like you, I think not very religious, to the line. I have in the book, is I'm I'm jewish and the same The olive garden is italian. Not thank I, but I think, interested in religion, and that was like fifteen years ago I did a a book called the year of living

obliquely, where I followed all the rules in the bible, the famous ones like the tension and but I also had a crazy beard. I also stoned adulterers, but I use very small, sounds like pebbles side and I didn't go to jail. That was same thing, driven fuelled by curiosity and putting myself in there. You know writing teachers always say right what you know right about your life and I do not have very interests. in life, I have to say, but I thought well what if I just put myself in interesting positions and see what happens, then I can write about my life. So that's that's has fuelled the yeah, the books that I've written. I love it. Inks here, jewish the way the olive garden is italian. Does that mean you're you're, a source of unlimited breadsticks? Well, if they're flatbread, of course, they got it right right. Of course, there has to be jewish

yeah. So what did you learn from the bible book mean? What would you say has stuck with you from that because it is like on the one hand, and I'm I don't use this word in the pejorative, it's a stunt, it's a great conceit for a book. But I imagine there was there were things you learn that go beyond just the wow factor. Oh yeah, and I was actually very nervous when I was writing that book before it came out. The people would dismiss it totally as a stunt and I got lucky, I got very good feedback from both religious. Though, and non religious people as actually. This was an example of the confirmation. Biased so the email, nay life. Thank you for sharing Crazy religion is, and I would get really people like that. you for renewing my face so every, Just read it in the way that is so. They thought but there were many take ways. One was gratitude that was sort of the

There's a line in the bible about gratitude that that led to the gratitude book later other one, was the one we are talking about about how acting your way and to a new way of thinking. So in a part of my call was in addition to that, the crazy stuff, like stoning doctors, had to do and sort of moral make over because the bible says that you shouldn't gossip burn, you shouldn't covered and should lie and I'm a journalist in new york city. So that's like percent of my day. So I was like how I do this and the most effective method was to try to act as if I were a good person. My friend was in the hospital. I really don't want to go, but if I act as if I'm a compassionate person, like the bible, says then in a forest. Health to go and after you do it a few times. You trick your mind

oh all. I guess I am pretty compassion, I'm compassionate guy and then you sort of associate that becomes your identity, so that was very powerful and also tools. I actually. I was very sceptical about rituals casual I am very much in science ration, the fan- and I thought you wanted. This is a little weird to do these crazy rituals pay. You know the people I talked to a very smart. I had a board of spiritual adviser, so rabbis ministers and scholars and atheists and a lot of em said don't be sown dismissive of rituals ritual? can be so meaningful, if they don't hurt someone in idle human sacrifice, I am not a fan and they'd on her have to be religious. They convey a birthday party, that's a ritual, now there is nothing rational avowed put fire on top of a bunch of sugar.

then blowing it out. That is not a rational scientific action. It's a ritual, but rituals can be wonderful and bind us together as humans. Do you now? Those are just three random once they came to me my head, but it was. It was a great experience, actually a pain in the ass. button bright. Did any aspect of the moral make over stick with you? Are you more compassion? isn't it now than than you were before. You wrote it in an abiding way. I'd think so I mean I'd say. Like thirty percent, I said we're going to put a percentage on I'm still higher than my usual percentage threatened, thirty percent, more more compassionate. Can I think I still struggle I'm still self centered in many ways, just the terrible person, but I find it I fight it.

One way I fight it is I do here. Gossip is an interesting one, because in one way gossip is important, like you know, adjusted evolutionary if someone's a cheater, you do want to spread the word. But of? It is not good for us. Every It feels good in the moment, and the bible actually talks about that like it's, like you know, a sweet taste, but then it turns bitter and so forcing myself tis only say good things about people and less therein. Embezzler tried find the positive in people and by doing that, convincing myself that humans have goodness, and so and is the behaviour of talking saying nice things change, the way my brain is wired and I find more goodness in people because of that, whatever rituals pay you beyond birthday party is kept up with any rituals.

Well, I do I'm still a believer and not of an agnostic, but I do like the jewish rituals. Ip more of a fan of that like cedar, just getting together with your family and of doesn't have to be doing, is Annie, Annie, rich well, where you get together with your family or friends and do something every year, love that we have a ritual where we go to deep. rural maryland with ten friends and and their kids, every new year's, that's a ritual and I've. Actually, come a big fan of mourning rituals, one of which I talk to you about was having those ten fifteen minutes a brainstorming. I love that so yeah rituals are huge in my life. You also did a book about getting healthy. What was the name of that book that was dropped dead, healthy? We ve done a lot of shows about my ambivalence and the ambivalence of many

Experts with whom I have spoken about the kind of unhealthy fixation with being healthy and I've just come is where you landed. Well, that is so funny. That was one of my big tank. Always you pay I need there is even a word or though rex yeah, yeah, judges and unhealthy obsession. I don't think it's in the in the official psychology books, but I loved because you're one of the take away is. Is it someone about diet and exercise. That's a part of it, but a lot of it is about having a strong family or group, our friends in our having a social network, that your embedded in a lot of it is about stress which you can fight when meditation and sleep, so those are just as important as diet and exercise and if you're, just focusing on,

say: you're, like so obsessed with eating the exact right, non, gmo asparagus, grow and organic and and it means you won't go to restaurants with your friends there. Is not healthy. That is unhealthy or, if you're spending all of your time at the gym, have gone out for drinks with friends, not healthy. It's a balance so yeah. I agree you don't wanna, be unhelpfully obsessed with health, the good news is alone, What we find pleasurable like meeting friends, actually is healthy. We just underestimated, and actually, since my part, gas, the new pact ass, the puzzler is basically having people come on and solve these puzzles. These quizzes live. Can I give you a really quick version. Like a thirty second pleasure, I really this one speaks to what

china before lay in a sort of thinking outside the box, thinking in different ways. So is this puzzle that me and the producers came up with its a rebus, but isn't the yo version of a rebus. So I am going to say a word in a certain way or a certain tone of voice or an accent and that's the clue and you you're going to have to guess the two word phrase that comes from it so since, if I said the word ta eyed, the hat, there's a clue for two word: frazier s rising tide arising, oh, like that you say you not puzzler, I'm glad I think you're cynthia, I was very fast at tat- was bad. I let me give you a couple more than blessing.

An excuse, my my its say to get my acting is not tat, not spend our time to lasting july, seen dole resting blessing blessing. I think the word dressing, but were they in a certain way, french, stressing that It is there it is. I am I'm like gerard Depardieu, yeah you're, like what the hell is he trying to do. I thought I was in it was seen from ratatouille. Well that that's a compliment or I'll give you one more which is chair Errors is folding chairs were now. You know it is right and something chairs is correct. I'm singing!

game that you might have played as a kid musical chair musical chairs errors. I want. I didn't. I didn't know that one I got it eventually, but, yes, you know justice to say I rise as we talk about my scepticism about puzzling, it's actually I don't have any skepticism. It's just that. I'm not naturally drawn to doing them in my spare time, but I will say that I love mysteries and I bet this will land for you as a writer, but in my books about only written one proper, memoir, unam writing the second one now, but I really do structure them as mysteries, even though their not there's no crime suffer the more crimes that I commend along the way, but you know there's a murder and yet I really love. I love that format. I love watching. I think, there's a primordial pleasure to watching people figure something out and so has a story

device. I really try to raise huge questions at the beginning. I think you do this to raise used questions the beginning than you give readers the pleasure, hopefully of watching me. stumble toward some sort of answer. My mom was an editor. At the new england journal of medicine, she's very sort of early pioneering female physician, and she was the person in charge of the most popular section of the new england journal of medicine, which was called the cpcs. The clint. Don't rack can't remember what it stands for, but it was basically where they took an unsolvable case and solved it as a row answer She would all I grab watching her red Agatha Christie and all these murder mystery, which I then went on read in my earlier years, and so I am very influenced by that, and so I guess that's a form of puzzle that has such as that. In fact I meant to have. After on, and I just ran out of time but yeah absolutely. I love that you structure books that why that's why? One of the reasons why there so popular people love-

Three and the mystery is the same thing. It's an aha moment, there's misdirection and then you look at the the clues. different from way and you like now and all clicks order from chaos. That's another big theme in puzzles and same as mysteries and I've actually started. I've been for the last month on a key The deadline for my next book- and the only way I can calm down, is to read mysteries before sleep. I have actually for the first time since I was like a teenager been reading mysteries caught up in works too. You know, if you really does. I am not opposed to drugs. I really am, and this seems to work there is

It's a basic pleasure to to question mark arrow exclamation point just order from chaos watching somebody figure it out and being sort of involved, even as a spectator, because you or your brain gets you involved it's. It is really pleasing and fun and is phonemic for the m, the podcast. It's actually interesting the feedback we get. People love it when the gas, the celebrity in struggle, they want to see that struggle. We had KEN Jennings and he was great hilarious, but he was also a little too fast cause. People want that they want to participate, they want to guess it at the same time. So that's been a fascinating lesson. Ken Jennings was the. Contested on my failed game show and he actually bombed away was it was yeah. He was what was the premise of the game, so the name of the show was five hundred questions. There was like jeopardy on steroids who was a much

you're visually, designed to give you an epileptic fists version of the jeopardy and so yeah. I was the hyper caffeine, aided version of alex drawback on that show. Although I don't drink coffee so. I just using you mention your next book, I'm curious. What is it my next bug is actually sort of a sequel to the year of living. Biblically, it's called the year of living constitute only, and I try to understand the: u s constitution by living at expressing my rights as if at the time they were written. So I had a quill pan and I wrote pamphlets. Instead of tweeting, I handed out pamphlets. I had a musket. I walked around with a musket, for my second human rights. I quartered soldiers, lance and leah the constitution- you he says you don't have to, but if you want to sell, I quarter a couple of soldiers,

has been a fascinating turn. Anna was sort of spurred by politics. Now I think one of the big questions in politics is how long really should we take the constitution? How narrowly should we interpret it and so on? like I'm gonna explorer by being the ultimate original list and see what that's like. Will you come back home in the book comes up Are you kidding I would love to, and I have specifically then trying to find wisdom from the latter things we don't want to get back to allow a horrible, sexist races, smelly things, but there also was wisdom, as you know, on happiness and virtue, and thinking about the common good I've made sure to explore that so that I can talk to you about. It I love it. Consider me flattered and intrigued excellent

so despite my final old traditional two questions for you, one is: is there something you would have liked to talk about that you can get an opportunity to talk about on? I was gonna bring up. I am very interested in how to fall asleep, and I've listened to a lot of your shows, but I don't think I've ever heard. Your sleep ritual I'll tell you. Mine quickly is going through the a bad from aid z in trying to think of something I am grateful for for each letter himself. Awesome. I have to switch up stay in oak, as I can always start with ay, hopefully honestly, by like h, her eye. So sometimes I start with with ass, sometimes when she said was one I would have discussed if we at times my sleep ritual, just answer the question. My struggle with episodic insomnia. We done a bunch of episodes on,

and what I ve learned a bunch of really useful stuff, and I realize I got really bad at this recently. So I've instituted more disciplined around not staring at my phone for the two hours before I go to bed? I get a lot of restlessness at night, so I do a lot of walking meditation before bed and if I can't sleep, I don't stay in bed and thrash. I get up and go read or do walking meditation or whatever it is in order to get my mind ready to fall asleep, and I finally just you know it's back to the self talk thing. If I can't sleep, I just talk myself and say: look you ve been through this a million times. tomorrow is going to be fine. You've survived many days of one to three or zero hours of sleep. You can survive this next, one don't freak out about, and actually that often helps me fall asleep, and I did the gratitude thing too. Before I go to bed, I just list a bunch of things that I'm grateful for alright. These are good

I good I liked that and the screen one I mean. I know it and I just ignore it. I gotta do what you do yeah, that's a good one. No you just had the the hardest part about personal growth, in my opinion is forgetting, as he just need to be reminded over and over and over again right. That's a full employment act for me actually doing the sheriff I think exactly thank you for reminding you get over and over again and final question is: can you just no mention it. Can you just mentioned again the name of your latest book and the podcast and any other books or resources. You won't be able to know, but while thanking for that, I would love to hear this latest ones called the puzzler and the pond ass, it is called the puzzler were they did eggs on I hired and its available everywhere in its is super short, so you know you could find Seven minutes a day make it a practice and then listen to dance, show

I've got the year of living constitutionally coming up in next year. Oh last thing I totally forgot. I went and I looked up- try to figure out anagrams with your name, because you have very anna grandam name. One of them is is hard rains yeah hard rains like bob Dylan heart. greens is going to fall and the other one is oh wait. What does the other one I I'll have to tell you later? Maybe that'll be something for the listeners. They can come up with something with hairs. Darn hairs. That's what it was are heirs. So there you go That was the only only thing we didn't touch on. I had a colleague, Sarah haynes at good morning, america. She used to call me the target areas. Almost an anagram green

but they had not negotiate an area where the word play. Nonetheless, there you go age. What a pleasure, sir! I hope that the first of several I loved I have of aunt Hannah and I learned I feel like I'm in, I won't say I'm percent of your maybe more fifteen twenty. It was great yeah, absolute I'll. Take it big thanks day, J Jacobs by the way has a new podcast called the puzzler with asia, Jacobs, which is short little audio puzzle that you can do alongside celebrity guests, such as baritone day Thurston. with junior and least lobe. Thank you for listening, really appreciate that and thanks, everybody who worked so hard on the show ten percent happier bruised by terror, Anderson, Gabriel's, ackerman, justine, davy and psmith versus nitrogen is our senior editor cabinet on all is our director of audio and post production and Jimmy regular? Is our executive producer Alisha Mackey,

leads. Our marketing Antonia magyar is our director of podcast nick or burn of islands road our theme, you like ten percent happier- and I hope you do you- can listen early and ad free right now by joining wondering plus a wondering app or on apple pie, casts prime members, listen ad free on amazon music before you go, tell us about yourself by filling a short survey at wondering: dot com, slash servant.