There’s no shortage of fear these days -- the virus, the climate, racial injustice, political tumult… I could go on. But can you change the way your brain reacts to fear? Moreover, can you train courage? Abigail Marsh says yes; overcoming fear is a trainable skill. She’s an Associate Professor in the Department of Psychology and the Interdisciplinary Neuroscience Program at Georgetown University. She’s also the author of the book Fear Factor: How One Emotion Connects Altruists, Psychopaths, and Everyone In-Between. This is a classic TPH podcast conversation: an ace scientist whose area of expertise illuminates key aspects of the human condition. Enjoy.
Where to find Dr. Abigail Marsh online:
Website: http://www.abigailmarsh.com/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/aa_marsh
Book Mentioned:
Fear Factor: How One Emotion Connects Altruists, Psychopaths, and Everyone In-Between by Abigail Marsh: https://bookshop.org/books/the-fear-factor-how-one-emotion-connects-altruists-psychopaths-and-everyone-in-between/9781541697195
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Other Resources Mentioned:
The Goldfinch by Donna Tartt: https://bookshop.org/books/the-goldfinch/9780316055420
Lovingkindness: The Revolutionary Art of Happiness by Sharon Salzberg: https://bookshop.org/books/lovingkindness-the-revolutionary-art-of-happiness/9781611808209
The Overstory by Richard Powers: https://bookshop.org/books/the-overstory/9780393356687
Clara Barton: https://www.redcross.org/about-us/who-we-are/history/clara-barton.html
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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shortage of fear these days, fear of the virus. If climate change racial injustice, political tumult, I could go on, but here's the question: can you changed the way your brain reacts to fear? Moreover, can you train courage? Abigail marsh says? Yes, overcoming fear is a tradable skill, she's in a
He had professor in the department of psychology and the inter disciplinary neuroscience programmer georgetown university she's. Also the author of the book fear factor how one emotion connects altruist psychopaths and everyone in
tween. This is, in my opinion, a classic tpa, p, H, podcast conversation and a scientist whose area of expertise illuminates key aspects of the human
condition I really enjoyed this hope. You will to hear ago Abigail Marsh right well, nice to meet you thanks for donors, absolutely it's a pleasure. So how did you get interested in fear
That's a great questions, so my initial interest in
social psychology, which is the discipline I have my degree and wise, because I'm interested in facial expressions and non verbal communication in general, but how people communicate with one another and a little
which had been done over the years about why facial expressions look the way they do, and I find that a particular interesting topic, because they do look remarkably consistent across cultures, which suggests that there's something evolved and at least partly in eight about them.
And that's really amazing right. I mean it's one of the. U no key piece of evidence that broke the back of radical behaviour as some decades ago that emotional expressions are interpreted ball across cultures and lessening the really important of that.
and some people had spent a lot of time looking at the reason
I dunno angry expressions of a particular way or happy expressions, but nobody really touched fear fearest.
Two fundamental emotion: it seems really import
to know why we would communicate it to each other and how people
terminate and other people and
I am really was
for a moment. It was based on a combination, of course, as I was taking as undergrad, where it occurred to me that the reason that fearful expressions look, the way they do is to elicit support and care from people who see
because they mimic the appearance of an entire face big eyes
yeah, highbrows big eyes, the very rounded appearance of the lower face, and they make you look infantile ends that particular connection can help us
understand so much about our nature as a social species. What emotion
for what kind of social behaviour we can accept.
From other people around us that one observation really has a lot of applications, so it's kind of expecting you to say that you had some lifelong struggle with fear, but in fact it sounds more like up academic it.
Well I mean you know, the same research is measured, I'm sure I mean,
I wouldn't say how lifelong struggle with fear, but of sam, probably above average, in terms of kept
city for anxiety and I've certainly had experienced?
where I was frightened for my life and I had the good fortune to be helped by other people around me.
and so I am a hundred percent certain that that may be interested in this topic. To begin love are those things you're comfortable discussing. Oh sure I mean
It's not only one thing, but certainly the most important relevant ban as
about that happened. When I was nineteen, when I was in a car accidents on a big freeway and washington state understate five
and as I was driving over bread should go back to my hometown. Late at night I swore to avoid a little dog.
I ran in of my car and becoming
swerving, an unfortunate hitting the like anyways sammy car into these fish tails.
eventually doughnuts across the freeway,
and wound me up stranded in the fast lane of the freeway on this overpass
with no way of escaping a no phone and cars and summarised
whizzing by me, so fast they were making my car shake. I was sure of that:
I mean I was one of those things you know they take time slows down when you're feeling intense fear, that's true went down a wide and no. I then
and I really didn't know what to do. I thought I was sure I was going to die and tell a stranger appeared next to my car having them, as I later figured out, run across the freeway
again in the dark to rescue somebody he'd never met before he got me.
he figured out what I could get my car back on. He threatened his way through the
the barrage of oncoming traffic to get us back across the freeway and then
He just disappeared, he's like around anymore,
follow you alex, oh god, I'm like not an audio,
I'll be ok, and he said: ok, you take care of yourself them and off went in tonight. I still to this day,
I s a thank you. I don't know anything about over who is on
that I owe him allies and really inexorably
and the way that I think about people and social behaviour. Well, it's a dramatic storied actually connects to the thesis, to the extent that I understand it, of your book and wages
repeat the title which I will have stated in the introduction, the fearful
your how one emotion connects altruism psychopath and everyone in between
This is an example of extreme altruism that you just share with us. Without a doubt, he absolutely risked his life to save me. He deserved a model for many dead at the very least, and, what's
interesting about people like him. Is that there's a really common tendency to assume that people who do her out things to help. Others are fearless you her. That word used all the time, but reference to heroes ends, but my
such a shown is that that's absolute, not true that actually there's really there's much more interesting relationship between fear and courage and altruism. So what does it say
what seems to be the case is that truly fearless people tend not to help other people. For example, people who were psychopathic are one of the key features of psychopathy is a fearless disposition, as failure to respond to threats or punishments for that
so for harm, and certainly people who are psychopathic too dangerous things, but the very unlikely to do heroic things, because that requires picking up on the fact that somebody else's afraid, if you are doing something heroic, are usually savings
who else from danger, somebody else and afraid and you're acting to help them and what seems to be the case if you don't expiring,
Fear strongly yourself. You also don't pick up on that emotion and other people. You have trouble detecting whether people are feeling at you, surly dawn,
appreciate why that state is bad and why you'd want to alleviate it.
And so you're very unlikely to do anything to help when other people are afraid, and so people who are very altruistic turn out to be the opposite. There are people who are acutely aware of what it means to be
trade, and so they can empathize without state and other people, and when
encounter. People who are an extreme distress are much more likely to help, and so, rather than being fearless there truly brave, they have courage, which is a virtue, whereas fearlessness is really not so.
a couple of questions about this can we train this ability, because I think about myself here. I think about myself all the time.
You know I have a lifelong relationships. Fear anxiety, phobias manic,
I don't know how altruistic I am
or heroic. I am I'm not trying to sort of needlessly self denigrate here I've, but I'm curious.
I feel like this is an area where I could grow room. Is that a doable thing
absolutely I mean all it takes to overcome. Fear is a stronger motivation.
You know again the interesting thing about people who are psychopathic, who have also worked with extensively. Is that they don't.
How many stronger motivation other than their own wellbeing right, nothing motivates than before,
They don't have principles, they don't really care about other people, and so most of us have the cap
ass if to be really brave
as long as the thing that we are moving toward is more important to us than the risks that might otherwise drive us away and serve resembling you have a child, my gases
I even confronted with the saying you are most phobic of. If you know I dunno, if you're like me, and let's save a dog phobia like if your son was being attacked by a dog, my
I bet you would be running in there to tear him away from the dog, no matter how afraid you are of dogs, that's because you love you
and his welfare is so important to you that it would overcome
no he's momentarily. Your fear for yourself and that's exactly what happens when altruism do what they do it just words
what's interesting about many altruist, is that they seem to be.
motivated by other people's welfare. Even when they don't know those people. That's the remarkable thing,
as it means most of us. I ve no jumped into the pool to save one of my kids who thought she was drowning. Now she was
drowning. She couldn't swim yet
we closed on in my pocket, and it didn't feel brave at all it just you know she was screaming and I can still it's like her sound of her voice is like ice and my brain just remember your mommy help and I was just in you know. It's like.
I get is terrifying, just think, she's been drowned and there they have thought involved and for his interest,
to me after this is Oliver's. I, like that's what the alchemist worked with, say there feeling when they decide to help other people. They say there feeling unthinking. Almost nothing
you know, something is help, help them and but again
was so interesting about them as they respond this way even to the distress
The danger of people that they ve never met rachel is that training
I know that I would dive in any circumstance. I can imagine to save my son, but to save you,
you huh now I never met the nineteen year old version of euro. I certainly
not bad highway. That's a different kettle of fish now yeah, so it's almost certainly train about when we know is mostly because we see lots of variation across time and across culture,
which means that there are forces that can move this capacity around. That makes it sound
simpler than it is right. There are lots of difficulties
trying to shape behaviour as in any kind of sustained
in a meaningful way. I mean you probably know the psychology litter
on the ability of the most nudges to make meaningful changes in behavior is pretty spotty it's hard, but we know that is possible
because people are becoming more altruistic towards people who are more removed from them all the time it's happening constantly and
culture become more industrialized people. Social networks tend to get broader and more diverse, and that seems to generally
move. The way we respond towards people that we don't know yet, particularly the way we respond to strangers,
and our willingness to help them, and so
that can tell us a lot about the kinds of experiences that you know,
development or during our lives will make us more likely to be altruistic and its both simple and difficult its
having a social experiences that leave you, believing that
people around you are deserving of help
That the people around you are mostly gooden would help you if they could and
most part. Luckily, we live in a culture where that's usually true, most of our real, so
home and we were all on social media all the time. I fully expect people to think I'm just completely knave, and for that
That began mean here's where it helps. I worked with people like about it. I know the bad people out there. There is no doubt about that. Some people just aren't nice and there never going to be nice, but we're working. The psychopathy has taught me
is that there really different from the average person most people are not like them at all, and some most
in daily life have mostly really positive social experiences,
and to the degree you can have those positive social experiences with diverse sort of wide array of people.
Helped you conceptualize, although
people you haven't met yet, and Jim, even more likely to sort of belief,
that those strangers at you encounter are, you know, still kind of in this general ab.
dragged idea, you have a person who is part of your social network and you'll be more likely to
I care about the welfare of his own soul. Let me restate that we evolved from bias
down the savanna somebody showed up, who had looked a lot different
and you in your tribe looked. You would, I think, probably justifiably, be suspicious. So
wouldn't feel necessarily a lot of at least at first, a lot of altruism
We have this in made by
other ring tendency by leaf from one I'm here.
That. The edges have been shaved off of that because
societies and
together with the united states, has become
more heterogeneous
we're seeing different types of people on tv and on our social media,
that has in some
Drivel ways raised are altruism baseline, maybe so yeah. I would say that that's in large part, I think what's happening, I mean. The first thing I should say is that the capacity for altruism their capacity to want to help other people is a very fundamental part of who we are, and species
everybody, regardless of culture again, with the exception of people who rather psychopathic- and there are quite different from other people on so that you will remember. But there's this wonderful hypothesis that has been
coming out of the comparative
elegy. I anthropology literature called the self domestication hypothesis that
is basically the survival of the friendliest among certain species that
tom, highly social and highly cooperative is very clear that they become self selected over time for a high level of cooperative, docile friendly nature,
and dogs, or maybe the most obvious, such species. That is how they differ from their wild type cousins, the wolves. They are just much friendlier and less aggressive and more cooperative with humans. But it's interesting is that all the features that differentiate domesticated species from their wild type cousins
are also markers of humans and what makes us different from olive are non modern, homo sapiens, cousins and so
very clear based on all the sort of skeletal evidence and as well as behaviour evidence that we are basically south domesticated. We evolved to be cooperative and to be,
really docile and two usually assume that other people can be trusted. At least is absurd.
The baseline assumption now that all breaks down when you
Have intergroup conflict in particular when you're, interacting with somebody that you think maybe a threat to your group.
and was so interesting about that is, that is actually a result of altruism right, because you wouldn't care about
group unless, during ultra psychopaths on care about their group. It is care about themselves, and so what so,
hard about humans. Is that the deep and profound ways that we become you know sort of one with our group and that we
Their welfare is as important as our own is the reason that we have these very deep between group enmity, some time
we perceive that members of another group are somehow hostile to our own, threatening our own or a threatening the resources of our own and so
to the degree that you live in a culture where life is not framed,
as a battle between groups,
You are more likely to treats
novel new strangers as not threatening the welfare of your group and so to treat them. As you know, a potential in group member, which is great and to some extent the whole world, is becoming progressively that way. Now, because the you know all the modern technologies we use are really expanding the
raise if what we all think of as our groups, the only downside is that they also having this pernicious effects on feelings of threat from other groups, and that will attempt on altruism million
to blame, and so those are the sort of push paused. There were opera until
your theories and another push pull here because, another day,
our view of modernity and which I've heard argued to my ears convincingly, is that, as we have larger social networks, but weaker ones, and particularly in the west, where
this way of this idea of individualism rather than community variant values- and I was a community and values-
their problems, were you know, but lots of people were trampled underfoot in lots of
tourists, but individualism has its discontents as well. Where, with these weaker social ties, I've heard it argued that that's leading to this epidemic of depression, anxiety, suicide, addiction, etc.
cetera. How do you incorporate dad argument into the rosier one that you seem to gravitate towards a well? I do
think they're necessarily in conflict with one another, and fortunately
general? We know
oh, that well being is a really strong promoter of altruism- and this has been said,
in every way, you could possibly imagine, but when I mean this objective, while being people's sense of.
Serve life, satisfaction, purpose in life, feeling they have strong social ties, etc and its
I directional relationships in the higher the level of well being the more likely to be an altruistic them are authorised. If you
or the higher your level of well being in general. Of course, these are all massive generalities with lots of individual creation, and so in general, the kinds of forces that promote wellbeing tend to also promote
altruism and some of those are objective variables so
ample as cultures become more prosperous and people are
not suffering you streams and deprivation. That tends to be a good thing for processing
and I am saying, is that the real you know what I'm not saying is in a very wealthy people are the nice us and people who have you no fewer resources inter privileges are not nice. I definitely not saying that, but one
saying is there seems to be a positive relationship between flourishing and process reality, which is a really good thing, because otherwise would have this horrific fashion bargain to make which is europe
we can either do well or they can do good, but we have to pick one and at least, if you look across geographic regions, that doesn't seem to be the case that
regions in which people reporting higher lovers of lobbying, you also tend to see higher levels of presidential behaviour and interesting
one of the variables that is also appears to be positive,
ass, he had it with his variables, is individualism the cultural area but which is so interesting because, of course, individualism.
It has pernicious effects. If no question about it, there's not one now know cultural variables, don't tend to be better or worse than any serve absolute sense, but they all have caused
That's in general it actually a former georgetown undergrad, who was a student one of my classes, political paper a couple years ago
I that in general cultures, all around the world are becoming more individualistic as time goes on, not of huge surprise, think most people would have figured that out
and the one of the predictors of culture
coming more individualistic is prosperity so, as cultures become, you know wealthier and again we're not time extreme. While we are talking about rising up out of very low levels of wealth endeavour,
wasn't tends to rise and individualism, as it's meant in this kind of research. Is
thinking of the individual as a unit of society and people's goals tending
to sort of revolve around in.
It all goes
expression,
an individual being so been well
Furthermore, individuals culture is people tend to me major life decisions about
Where'd you go school, what kind of a job to pack but gender expression neighbour,
Mary. All of these things are based on their own personal preferences. What they believe will is sort of them most.
The choice that is the most aligned what they like, rather than the degree to which their choice is beneficial for their group.
So when you think about individuals in that way, it's not that's. Uprising individualism is associated with Bobby, because people are making choices based on the things that they prefer,
but again it does have its downsizing. It in one of them may be this and and Robert probably what's the cases that there's some bad
balance between individualism anymore, collectivist focus
it is a sort of ideal and that balance may differ across cultures in terms of what is most likely to maximize both
individual wellbeing and
well being of the group, but it does not
true that
individuals and is necessarily a bad thing when it comes to promoting both person.
Being- and we know that it's possibly associate
what personal wellbeing, although again we may reach them, ask them to where it not any more, and it does seem to promote altruism, particularly towards strangers, not towards people that you're close with. But you know most cultures
everybody's altruistic toward people are close with, but there is something interesting about how individualism may promote more precision. Eighty two strangers in particular.
Much more my conversation with Abigail marsh read after this, you I've heard about master class for years, but I've never actually checked
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P o d c, a s t ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire. Let's go back to this question cause, I think, you've kind of brought us here a little bit at least to whether this sort of altruism, in the face of fear
Is a trainable skill? What are the ways in which one can train it
so the ingredients that seem to be necessary, for
for altruism, one of
is having some serve baseline level of emotional social sensitivity. So having
you know, having enough emotional sensitivity that you recognise when somebody else's
marion, sang extreme distress and
Most people have enough emotional capacity to recognise when others are
grass, but there is some evidence actually that having experienced extreme emotions yourself makes you more like they help others in the future. So people who experienced significant when the strasser trauma themselves
seem to be more likely to go on and help. Others in the future, possibly because it gives them a greater cooper,
I mean for empathy. I tend to believe that that's true, you know you, you have to know what it's like to suffer to really empathize with somebody else's suffering. Yet my wife had a brain tumor when she
eight and went on to become a incredibly compassionate doctor. I had no problems ever and where make up and talk to television cameras trimmings, do them ass. Well, there you go
we saw the questions are leaving needed, the steady yeah. I know I think that you know the compassion is born out of suffering to some degree, not inevitably, but the relationship is clearly there, but not the most fun way to train the skill. Well, I do think it important to have experiences
all right, even for example, to go out and just help. People like, if you want to become more compassionate, just start helping people, because you know the people
who are out in the world who are helping people that is a form of suffering in itself, unfortunately,
the empathize with other people suffering as you now can bring a lot of distress along with it and others, an interesting debate about whether, if you have come
I symbol, then it doesn't make you suffer to see. Other people suffer, and I have my doubts about whether it's really possible to be compassionate and not feel any suffering in response to other people's suffering. But in any case, having experiences in the world is, I think, an important part of being somebody who can be emotionally sensitive to
as just to be an adjuster. Sorry to cut you off. On that point, I don't know that the argument, I'm not an expert in this. I dunno that the argument is that the difference between empathy and compassion, empathy, which is like the pure feeling of somebody else's
pain and compassion, which is that plus the
sire too lenient and help. I don't know that
passion nullifies all of the suffering. I just think it adds
and ennobling aspect and empowering aspect dead, protects you against burn out. That's my weak understanding,
that I mean, that's, actually exactly how I would describe it. That's a really good description. I think ass. I should better description. I could come up with I like that. Alot there
some people who argue that compassion, you turns the whole thing
to a positive experience. Food prevent you from suffering in response to other people suffering an item. I dont know if I really believe them
the only way to increase ones, altruism, another really important way, because again, most
I do have altruistic motivation for people were close to, but the kicker, as how do you expand that pass to our own immediate circle of loved ones and the
a little more complicated answer better. A big part of it seems to remove.
Around this idea of humility.
and the idea of thinking of you
health is embedded in a larger whole rather than as being somehow more important or more
central were enough fundamentalist
shaw compared to other people there,
We were surprised actually when I started studying the extreme ultra. I study that day,
solve never described themselves as extraordinary or heroes, or especial by many of the issues that can you donors, I've worked with frozen,
the emphasize that there really no different than anybody else. They really believe that anybody, given the information that they had, would also want to do it. It came into a stranger
and I do believe that many more people might want to donate a canoe to a stranger than are aware of it. But I think that actually incredibly important to not think of
Health is more special were better than anybody else. It mean it makes
Sunlight. You believe that you are the most special person, then, why would giving away half of you were in a kidney resources, for example, be a good bad because you're the most important one. So the-
in have the most value in your body. But if you
is that,
Everybody has certain comparable worth figure. Just one of many people out there, none of whom is more important than the other, and this prison
in a die without a kidney and you're, probably going to be fine with or without it. Well then, giving the kenya to the other person seems like a completely obvious decision and that's the way most of the altruists. I've worked with seemed to think of it that why is this person's welfare any less important than anybody else?
says and that by the same token, why are there any more special? Why shouldn't be now they have a kennedy, give they should just do it.
Aren't you really is something that can be trained to some degree
it's not hard wired trade, it doesn't seem to be. How would you train it?
and wouldn't it be harder in a culture dominated by individualistic outlook
It's actually not true. That's a really interesting and important point that individualism is not the same thing as narcissism bet. It's a more.
We're about sort of individual expression and authenticity that can certainly go hand in hand with believing that each one of us deserves the capacity for authenticity and individual expression, which is nice. I mean again it's nice that these are not necessarily competing norms. There are lots of ways to
one sense of humility. Gratitude is a big one in general thinking about things, you're grateful for keeping a gratitude journal. These are just really positive things to do. They
to generally lead people to a greater sense of well being, and they also increase your sons, humility because
as you are,
Of all the way is that you're fortunate, due to forces outside yourself right all the things that you have to appreciate, which I think natural
lends itself off to a more assertive, humble perspective on your own successes, experiences in nature. Interestingly,
seem to be a great way to generate a sense of humility.
an interesting relationship between exposure to nature and processing theology- and I wouldn't say It'S- a rock solid
meaning that I'm a hundred percent sure is true, but I will definitely say that it seems to be true and what are the downsides?
spending time in nature and having experiences of awe when confronted with the matter
c of a night sky or a sunset or mountains or towering trees, seem to promote a sense of a small self. You know self is very small and embedded in a much larger universe and that sense of a small self. That's just me, no one atom particle and the much larger sea of people is really nice way to promote a sense of humility.
what about meditation? You? That's a really great question: there's some of it
that's forms of meditation that are designed to promote your feelings of well wishes and
beneficence towards others, may promote altruism for some of the same reason, so they should be compassion, meditation, loving, kindness, meditation. They seem
they should work for some of the same reasons. It's just you know, compassion, meditation, long, kinds of meditation or just sort of bootcamp, like you're training yourself to experience these feelings.
compassion and well wishes for others, which necessitates
Thinking of others as worthy of
doing well of being in good health and being happy, which
I think, sort of automatically levels. Your perspective on this playing field, so that promotes humility and then learning
stand, not emotional state outward toward more and more distant people towards even people that are difficult or who you finds intrinsically, unlike about
toward yourself. You know, I think, feeling compassion for yourself rather than feeling
emotions like guilt and shame, and self criticism is also important for altruism, it's important to be able to figure of yourself as well for your foibles. So there is some pretty good evidence I think that's processed cialis can
promoted by compassion, loving, kindness, meditation. Not every study shows that. So again, I think you know scientific studies, you think in terms of probability is how likely is a particular,
to be true, I would say, I think, it's more likely true the not than these kinds of promote, altruism, but I think we're still in the process of making sure that's. True.
I'll just point out that I'm an avid practitioner of loving kindness, meditation and I still have to go
So can we got you in doing this limitation? Well, first, I was on
take your retreat and I didn't have any choice because they were teaching it in the afternoons
that's a good reason, and so for many years. I kind of did it, but you know- and I developed a better attitude when I started to see a lot of the sciences suggests. Can
really good for you and even potentially impact your behavior, and then I got really into it after I got- and I say this a tell a story- little sheepishly listeners of the show. No, this story in
it out. So I won't be labour the point, but I had a three sixty review and it indicated that I don't know if I would be if I would refer to summarize. The negative findings is indications of psycho pathology, but no kissing cousin,
and so I got pretty deep into loving kindness meditation. I found that it's been really helpful. Importation
I would say the most may be. The most useful aspect is
having an easier friendly relationship with my own
I believe this so that it
not owning is me as much, and that leaves room for it
later availability, that's an end of one, but that's the way I experienced it. It naturally call- and I think I
I think that what I love about loving kindness and compassion meditation as that,
in some ways the very simple ray you're, just training yourself to experience the state for a wider and wider network of people, which, in theory, should give you a sense of indebtedness in the larger fall, which is just beneficial in so many ways,
and I think it is concerned
and with what we know about, altruism, that you think of yourself as one part of
larger home. That's not divided into working groups right. This is the one
outside of collectivist cultures. That is a little
to get away from this that the more you define yourselves in terms of a group that you are part of the more you have to define
Some people is not in your group, and so the challenge is to make who we think of as our group as big as possible, and I think the promise of
loving kindness meditation has to do to stop, and I should say I've been really fortunate in the research that my lab is right now doing that we're working on some loving kindness, meditation protocols with Sharon Salzberg, who, you know probably know, wrote the book, loving, kindness, meditation and it's just an amazing teacher in this respect, because she's, a very good friend and teacher of mine has been on the show.
many times. Wonderful wonder, is a person I love. She is phenomenal, it's impossible
fail true joy. After having conversation with her. Yes,.
It can have a lot of profound effects that can be inconvenient to. I stopped eating animal products, which is a gigantic pain in the butt, but it has lots of I've found a lot of beneficial impacts,
well. I agree one other thing I read in preparing for this interview. While samuel did the preparation and provide
and I saw a document that I read sheriff samuel. That makes my life easier than I deserve to be, but one of the little
They stood out to be as one way to develop this capacity for altruism in the face of fear is literature yeah
now there's a really interesting body of evidence that read. It is also one of the reasons that, as
Culture is. How do you know what I'm talking about like hundreds of years ago now, as the literacy became a thing? There's people search a reed.
There was one of the many forces that seems to be generally promoting this global move towards greater empathy and altruism, especially towards strangers, and it's sort of cool
I really started thinking about it just makes sense right, because a reading about
Finally, sort of literary fiction seems to be one of the big movers, but really any kind of reading. That gives you the opportunity
be inside the head of another person
has all the ingredients of something that should work because you're really getting a chance to experience and other persons, internal state and link. It to your own,
answers, which is a great way to expands empathy,
doing it in response to a really just kind of a decent body. Might you know,
reading about somebody on a page. There's no visual choose there's. No. We now spoken acts answer clothing or anything that could mark them as different from yourself. You are forced to see.
all the things that you and the person who may be, in fact very different from you. You know you list.
Culture, faraway or listening to the time, maybe is maybe it's very different from me, your forced to share their
parents. And so there is some evidence that people who read a lot of literary affection have stronger empathic capacities which, having made let us out again, there's really no bad side. Effects to reading
Literature- and it may make you more about that- I guess you could raise some causation correlation questions there, but I will say that, just as a weird build on that notion for the last eleven or so years and I became interested in
the station and buddhism. I actually haven't read any literary fiction, except for one. I allowed myself a treat after I finish my first book of reading the goldfinch, which is unbelievably
and was really humbling after having written a book and then reading that and really how bad I am anyway. I recently had a very similar experience because a friend of mine who meditation teacher who comes on the show quite a bit- seventy selassie were sent me a book. This is what I have said, love languages. She sends pupil articles and books, and so she sent me a book called the over story, which one
in the pulitzer prize and I started to read it, and I had a lot of similar feelings. I had upon reading donna tartt book the goldfinch, which is wow. This person has indescribable genius. I think his name
Richard powers, I've just in awe that humans have the capacity to create
eight on their own. This amount of beauty, page after page sentence after sons, but the other thing is that this is a book about
freeze it's a novel, it has human characters, but the theme is trees, and
I don't know if one can have empathy, yeah guess about one- to demonstrate a lot of altruism in the direction of trees by, like
chaining yourself to one to prevent one from being cut down that happens in this book. I've noticed
I am way more a tune to and care much more about trees. As a result of reading this book
gosh, how wonderful of everything about that, so my husband actually wishes recommended that book to be the historian. He read it and he had exactly the same feeling. I always have had an strangely sort of love relationship with trees. I read
It seems rather my family, but I do love trees and my husband came away from his book feeling exactly that way about trade
then there is something about beauty that I think is so important and so that you brought that word up, because I think it's it's come into. Pooh pooh beauty a little bit,
as a purely cosmetic and asked her the fluffy thing to care about, but I think beauty assertive intrinsic to it.
I mean there's a reason that we like, and you know virtue and beauty. Beauty is one
those things that gives us a sense of are frequently that you know it's obviously profoundly positive experience to be confronted with something of great artistic beauty or great physical beauty, and it does give you a sense of
connected connectedness and a sense of joy, and so I think, having experiences that give you the privilege of experiencing the joy of beauty is,
Two. She ought wellbeing.
Ass is that it also is associated with
sociology, because that's so strongly related to the way we feel about nature and its also related to the experiences
Great literature ma am I love. That was a lot here before we close, I be curious to hear your thoughts about how we can apply what we ve learned over the
ass. Forty five minutes from you about fear and our ability to- I don't know if you like this,
but overcome in order to exhibit process reality and altruism. All of that, how can we operation lies it in the face of this
her senses globally, that provoked so much fear the pandemic,
racial injustice, economic,
decline and by the way injustice has well political unrest and decide.
Remit here in the united states on and on and on. How can we start to use the wisdom youve imparted in this context,
question, so fear is obviously an incredibly useful emotion. I mean we needed it to survive. People who are psychopathic do live last long than other people. I think in part, because they're not afraid enough. I think it's important to appreciate fear for what it gives us
but it is also important to remember that feelings are not truth and that its possible to be afraid of something that's not really dangerous,
or has not as dangerous as we fear it is and the way the
will end up with actual anxiety disorders that prevent them from being able to function or from being able to
reach their potential is by taking their fear. To literally
and this is where it takes some judgement and takes some perspective about the fact that there are
other things in the world that matter other than the thing we're afraid of this brings us right back to the discussion of altruism right. It's you know it's not that you're, not afraid of, for example, I dunno, if you're afraid of dogs but like if you, if, even if you were
fraid of dogs, you would get over that fewer immediately if there was something more importance to focus on an that's really. The best way for overcoming fear in general
is to remember that. It's just one signal
adding and not always an accurate one and so
when you know that the thing you're afraid of is
jack of we not
likely to actually hurt you you need to do.
When you're afraid of anyways? I mean it really comes back to the age old, saying that you know you have to get back on the horse after you fall off. Why is that? Because it's scary to fall for us? I've fallen off a whereas it sucks, but the reason you have to
back on is because that's teaching your brain that you can handle it
and the worst thing you can do in the face of things that scare you is to avoid them, because I just teaches your brain, that you should avoid them and a solidifies, the fear and that's where people end up with anxiety disorders, and so I think it's,
really important as much as we can to try to take the focus off ourselves and to focus
on the things in the world around us. That matter, and
oh about trying to do good in the world and trying to master our fear as much as we can allow the open
shakespeare instead of ambition, as it is a good servant, but a bad master, and that's basically this true. Every emotion fears also very good servant. It's a very bad master and
best way to overcome fears about all this.
It legitimately scary things happening in the world is to take action
take action to help other people who are worse off than yourself or maybe not even worse off than yourself, but they just need help poor yourself into com
is that matter, hopefully in ways that involve getting out from behind her scream. Our brain needs the real world in yemen. There's really cool stated. They cannot just this past year, looking at people's patterns of movement around my hand over the course of forgetting that the period of time,
but it was weeks. Maybe this is done by catherine
in my view,
and they found a really strong relationship between just the diversity of your movements in the world and in giving dad you're wellbeing were designed to move were designed to be an actual physical world doing things, and I think
in this world that we're living in right now, where we're just sitting behind our darn computers, all the day gets people in sort of a tailspin, sometimes, and so the best recommendation I can give people is to go out in the world and do things and do things that you find meaningful. That give you a sense of purpose because having a sense of purpose
essential for having a high level wellbeing, and it is that sense of purpose. That is the thing most likely to AL, compete
the fears you might have
This dangerous at the water is so in a covert context,
would an example be, like I'm afraid, of getting the virus. I'm gonna where my mask and take the appropriate precautions, but that won't stop me from say do involved
your work or going to be alarmed protest or voting or whatever it is. I think he's going to help other people and make a different exactly
I I have neighbors who spend their days, making sandwiches for people who don't happen
food right now, delivering things
people who really can't leave their houses. Oh my living
neighborhoods on the way
neighbour has been really doing themselves together recently it and make sure that everybody has the things they need during a pandemic has been really sort of an inspiring and heartening yeah. Focusing on health
the people I mean. One of my eyes were personally here is a car barton who live swell, who her hurled houses just down the road from mine here, and you see she was incredibly anxious as a child. You know she has a wonderful quote where
She says that people who observed her on the battlefield where she was the somewhere nurse who founded the american red cross, inventory
for going into battlefields and risking syria.
Injury herself to tend to wounded soldiers and people would say or do the same thing. She was fearless engine.
but you know as a child. I knew nothing but fear. I was extremely fearful child and then she had experience of care
for her older brother, who had terrible
injury and that experiences
really helped her get over her own fear and even later in life when she was experiencing bouts of depression, which she had. Many of she found that the best way to
over her own experience as a depression was to go back out on the battlefield and ten gounod soldiers and focus on now, rather than focusing on herself gotta get you out of that ruminative state that we know is so bad for wellbeing and health. You written that,
fear, gets bored easily and leads to habituation harry. How do you I see enemy
self that I'm
scared of the virus right now and for some reasonably good reasons in that I live in. A part of the world were transmission is quite low right now: caseload, hospitalization death rate, all quite low in the part of the north east, where I live
So you know last night, my aunt and me
cousin came over with some kids and play with my kids, and you know it
through caution to the wind a little bit and one level unthinking. Okay. Well, is this just our worth
I'll risk for the well being of children or is it I've become a visual the risk? And I just can't stay vigilant- that long
yeah, probably a little bit of both. I mean we're learning more so, for example, if you all were getting together outside, I think the evidence has become more and more clear return. The transmission of this virus is less likely outside, and so I've become much more comfortable spending time outside with people that I used to be
as of a data coming on, so that's been canonize but yeah. I know I know I know people who live in parts of the country that the virus-
missions very low who are still living such a cloistered existence and the pandemic that they remain very, very afraid of even
jacqueline, not that risky encounters, and I do think that taking obviously smart precautions.
we don't want no rest catching at mainly, I mean for me, I'm not at any particular time
categories I dont- want to catch him in at the stories- are obviously united, clear that none of us is truly completely safe.
virus, but mostly I want to give it anybody else. I would feel awful if that happened, and so I do take reasonable precaution
But I'm not fooling myself that we can ever bring our risk
that outcome down to zero. That's not the goal of life, and we have to take reasonable precautions which, if you know any two people will differ, but I think you know, I think it's ridiculous for people to argue against the mask, because it's a very small costs with what appears to be a very big benefit associated
preferentially spending time, whether the people outside, if the weather's nice there's not much of a downside and its clearly much safer and
going out and having little encounters where you realize that you know why we can keep going. We can keep doing something.
That we enjoy maybe not exactly the same way but to bring all the odds of catching the virus down to zero at the expense.
Eradicating every other thing that matters of life for an indeterminate.
A time,
in my book is not a reasonable sacrifice.
Even though, like everything, is just such a colossal mass on federal level, that does mean that each one of us can try to do our best to protect ourselves and the people around us, while still doing the things that are necessary to keep ourselves and our values our loved ones gone. We are talking about the people arguing against masks. I find anti maskers too
be extremely frustrating myself. But I wonder if there's some fear there to fear of submitting to the
finger, wagging nanny state experts, fear of somehow diminishing your man,
get lenity, etc, etc. That is that lampshade. Absolutely we on
very different amounts of access is good information and good resources, and so my general baseline assumption is that most people are doing the best they can. Most people think they're doing the right thing most of the time and
So I do believe that people who are very resistant to right now
six in general and their obviously exceptions to this belief.
that they are making their choices
reasonable causes, and it's just unfortunate that we don't have you no better now,
or messaging from trusted authorities. That would just say look I mean this is just
Yeah, there's no downside. You know that it's not gonna led to the fatal, build up of carbon dioxide. Her everything I've heard some crazy rumours floating around and the
This not only gonna benefit you, but it's going about benefit. Everybody else around you and if we do it for a little while, then will really make a difference and, let's all do it together ends. Unfortunately, the
way. You know, I think what some interesting is the right. Now, that information is cheap and you can get it anywhere and
I think this is one of the reasons that people have a lot of fear,
about things that are not as big a risk as they worry, because
there's so much bad information out there and fear yourselves. You know it. You get eyeballs by selling, conspiracies
where is an fearmongering, and so I don't necessarily blame people who have
a lot of paranoia, meaning strong
there's about things that are not actually dangerous, because you now people are feeding them. Information like this
very skilfully. Even though you're not a loving kindness practitioner and I'll say this enclosing, you very skilfully expressed- and I agree with it
some compassion and understanding towards people with whom we disagree, those who are wearing masks the sea that day
have reasons, even though we disagree with them that are reasonable in their minds. For doing what they're doing so, bravo to you profess
I thank you very much. Absolutely it's better afire big thanks to Abigail. I got a lot of that really appreciate it
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so hard put. This show together two and a half times a week. Samuel Johns is our senior producer maurice.
A schneider men is our producers, are sound. Designers are met boyton and on your sheikh of ultraviolet audio maria,
cartel. Tell us our production coordinator. We get a ton of really helpful input from our teeth. Each colleagues, such as joint point make toby been reuben endless levin and before I go of course, big thanks as always to may ABC news colleagues, ryan, kessler and just call him was the on friday for it
when his meditation on fear, we share in salzburg a prime members. You can listen to ten percent happier early
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Transcript generated on 2023-09-13.