This is the ten percent happier podcast dan harris. Hey we ve got a legend on the show today. Neil digress. Thyssen is an astrophysicist. The director of the Hayden planet, area at the american museum of natural history, the host of the emmy nominated podcast star talk and the recent and of twenty one honorary doctorates. He also has an asteroid named in his honor, which is amazing. His latest book right up our ally on this show it's called story: messenger cosmic perspectives on civilization, it's basically about how taking a scientific perspective can improve your life and by the way, improve the world and

conversation. We talk about applying a scientific lens to your emotions. The importance of intellectual humility, big theme on this show how the knowledge of death brings, meaning to life. We talk about niels, personal mental health regime and that we ask some big picture questions like you think there's intelligent life in the universe. Are we living in a simulation, and is very long view of social media. Just say this is the second in our bold face series, which were running in may, where we talked a famous people who have something to teach us about how to do life better almost long. Doing slabs on mondays and then dharma teachers on wednesdays, for a breakdown of the great buddhist lists, the noble eightfold path. So let us not what you think of this little weave were doing. I will let you know: something before we get started with today's episode this year over on the ten percent happier app, we are celebrating world meditation weak

from Monday may fifteenth to sunday may twenty first join us over on the app for daily free met it patients and live coaching sessions, and if you want to access everything on the ten percent happier app from ad free episodes of this podcast to meditation courses with teachers such as Joseph goldstein insurance all work, we are offering subscriptions at a forty percent discount until june. First, we don't do discount of this size all the time and of course nothing is permanent, so get this deal before it ends by going to ten percent dot com, slash forty, that's ten percent! One word all spelled out dotcom. Slash. Four zero for forty percent of your subscription are right now, on with the show. The state, the blazing obvious. It is not easy for many of us to make working out a habit, especially if the work out feel boring. Palatine has ideas for making exercise more exciting there more than justified.

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in vicissitudes of being alive. If you're thinking of starting therapy give better help Try its entirely online just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licence therapists. You can also switch therapists any time for no additional charge, find more balance with better help visit better help. Dotcom slashed happier today to get ten percent off your first month. That's better help, hd lp dotcom, slash, have you need the rest ice and welcome to the show. Thanks were heavily looking forward to this, so starry messenger, his second thing book and I'm curious. But how would you describe the thesis of this book? Why just remember as kid a geeky kid. I knew that I like science from very early beginning age. Nine I would say- by age. Eleven. The universe was so coming to me, and then I learned you could do it professionally so from that age

Alright, I had an answer for the annoying question. Adults always ass, kids, when you want to be when you grow up, and so I'd say astrophysicist and they would typically and the conversation writes- that there is no comeback. Matilda arsonists now know that this is not the case, but what they meant was I was able to see the world through to the scientific- She was wines as a child, rather than waiting until I'm an adult, and in so doing I began to notice that so many forces operating in our civilization, put into play by adults define any kind of rational sense or any kind of like why? What are you doing that for it? Don't you understand that? I am very frustrated by this. In one particular case, it was a comet. There was headed towards the sun. We discover hundreds of comets a year by

then maybe five comets ten comets a year. This one had great promise that, as a good closer to the sun, a get very bright, never one would see it, but still only a telescopic object at the time, but it is already made headlines, I'm in the street and fourteen years old and is a full grown adult holding a placard saying the com, is coming repent. The end of the world is near and I'm thinking this is a grown up person like what the they understand what comments are and how frequent they are and how many there aren't and to see this I said. Oh my gosh Society needs some kind of her. calibration What we think is true. Verses were is objective we true and ever is that I've been observing civilization, my father's a sociologist. So he observed

illustration in people's interpersonal relations, cultural, political, economic, serve that was kind of my baptism into thinking about society, but this book is basically a lifetime of insights and observations on the conduct of position in the face of objective truths that would have it take other tracks that's a very long answer, I'm sorry, but that the origin of this book with each chapter focusing on something that typically, we dig our heels in and hold very strongly held opinions about, and I think we've lost sight of what it is to have an opinion

verse is what has no right being an opinion, because we have objective truth. There saying that you can't wish this. You can wish this world if it involves objectively false realities, find something else in which to invest your opinions and certain attempt to like I said, to calibrate the arguments. People tend to have over holiday dinners imposed we saw in the strongly held up. In that you had. Realizing that it really had no foundation at all the foundation the strong as you thought it was another. Since you find that tree can have an opinion. That doesn't mean you're right. It mean someone says opinion? Might one day be shown to be right as well so have occurred? frustration about it,

rather than in the declarations that whatever does not agree with. You must be wrong and so to tire bowen what I just said worded is what two scientist argue: there's an implicit contract either I'm right and you're wrong. You're right I'm wrong or we both We know that going in How often do you see that when two people are set up for a formal debate, they will go to the end to their gray, is defending the position. they went in there to defend never seen a debate. Where someone you know, I never thought about it. That way, I agree with you: let's go have that said: no Never in the history of debates So that means they were a invested in their point of view being right right,

there then, instead being invested in what is objectively true, and therein may be the source of most conflict, not we society, but around the world geopolitically was then, would it be safe to say that what you are doing for is intellectual humility? think, that's it as a minimum as a minimum say emotional, humility as well, because often arguments are presented with a passion and passion is You know that motivates us. It here going when you might otherwise give up I'll. Have any problem passion, but when you start attaching passion to something that can be actively resolved then you might not be as receptive to learning you're wrong.

So yes, its intellectual humility, but it's also emotional humility, and maybe they work together in this regard. So yes, yes, in my field. We know enough about the universe to I defy how much we don't love, and there are two things we want to give you the details of this. It take it. There is dark matter, dark energy two things that are driving ninety six percent of the phenomenon, universe and we have now. idea. What's causing it. You can't be an asshole This is walking around with your shoulders part and, yes, we are masters of the universe. No, no, we know that is more we don't know that we do and we can quantified, Not only that will if we ended up learning those new things we might put us on a visit to where we can see farther than we can right now

I realise there is that much more. We don't know that can still happen as the saying goes, as the area of your knowledge grows. So too does the perimeter of your ignorance the edge between what is known and unknown in the universe that grows right alongside it, so yeah yeah have sought in arguments that could be another another title for the book, rather cosmic perspectives on civilization,. I think most people will agree, at least in theory, with the call for this intellectual, slash, emotional humility. I read recently that somebody asked ST augustine the great christian theologian for some mid life advice, and he said three things: humility, humility and humility. I believe ST augustine is also the guy who advanced the theory of original sin, which seems

if not fully provably wrong, just kind of obviously wrong and harmful, and so he might have benefited from taking on advice. But I think most people will agree with the call for this year. lady, and yet most people are not scientists you're, a scientist. You knew it early on you have, I would imagine we don't know each other, but I would imagine you have the character of a scientist, the rationality of a scientist, I do not end the rest of us are not all and I'm not calling you this, but doktor spock. You know the rest of us do run hot on occasion. So How scalable is your advice really given human nature? The I'd love that line of inquiry? I think it's fully scalable right. So let me first say that, though, I'm a fully trained scientist, I'm still a human being and human beings collectively have certain

susceptibilities to over investing in what we want to be true. The difference is, as a scientist. I have extra, checks and balances on man, saw come up with an idea it'll I say you. I wonder if there's a bias that leads me to think this idea I'll go to work, this is a meaning version of peer review, and I say what do you think of this idea and it's their job? It is their job to attack my idea at any weak point that they can see. There's a huge misconception, updating its it fed by journalists who, might lead? Often article saying new result resolve have to send scientists back to the drawing board will have to revisit their cherished theories like we're off there at a shrine, all worshipping the same some new thing shows up at the door and always send where flustered I'd have to go back

the joint. What were always at the drawing board and the most fertile scientific conference in his Are the ones where there is a vibrant disagreement on the frontier of discovery? best thing you can do for me. As my colleague is point out, my arabs me no favours by saying well now his senses many emotional and he's there. So, let's not talent, daddy's wrong. Now so collect we we know we are susceptible to our own vice and we take active measures to either remove it would diminish ship to as small as possible threes. Why? I think that scalable is he has I'll? Do that with any thought that I have? But principle? You can invoke that on single you might have in a day: ok, just one one argument you having with someone just pause and say whom how sure am I of this

it's not an argument. How? How complete is this idea that I'm now adopting doktor is part of my life were part of my routine. Like my behavior going forward, I gotta give an example. This direct from the book a little bit obscure, but touches on a lot of these points. This chapter Cobb, materials and vegetarians or contrasting the two dietary pathways, it generally people split and divide themselves. Among those light, so suppose, you're a vegetarian and one of them you just don't want to kill animals. That's your reason animals to you are something special or pressures sacred relative to plants so array that person probably has a humane mousetrap in their basement. If they live in a house with a basement where mice might come in and humane mouse trapping traps, them doesn't kill them.

Nobody got a check on him every few days because they can dry out very quickly. They have a high metabolism, so you better check on him and then what do you do? You take the the box, and you open the lid and they escaped back into the wild where they came from and you feel good about this. Okay, have you thought that through? Is it my point as a scientist, I'm saying alright, you liked the mouse. He wanted to live a long, healthy life instead of snapping it's neck in a mousetrap, okay! Well,. You realize a mouse in the wild life expectancies anywhere from nine to eighteen months, tops two years. Why could they get even their tasty snacks for hours and hawks and crow wasn't and foxes and all manner of woodland, predators delight in mice as a snack. So

the best thing you could do for the mouse. let him live in your basic, where it's and drive in fact, amounts in captivity, lives up to six years, so Do you really have the house well being for the mouse in mind when you do this not only that you probably living in a house made of wood right too the floors and wall boards and floor planks and- and Actual members by my count, your house has probably made from the would have fifty trees. Each problem we would live a hundred years. stream living longer than you'll ever live and those trees and they were alive, were home to insects and then fungus And squirrels and birds and through their natural process and photosynthesis they produce

fifteen times the mass of that mouse in breathable oxygen every day. Yet you cut down all those trees to build a house for you to live in so that you can save at one ounce mouse. So for me, if I'm going to create a life pass, given my faculties as a scientist, I'm going to think through all elements of it, and it's not hard just ask yourself what I think nature care more about the fifty trees, its living a hundred years providing homes for countless insects, one ounce mouse what you judged the life or that mouse to be greater than the life freeze the out live mice by fifty one. Every time So this is an example of bringing it's ration was fought with objective truth as their foundation,

two decisions you might be making in this world and the entire book is follow those for them cosmic per accidents on civilization, so yeah, I scalable. Let me start with some arguments: might have had it thinks you having dinner and take it from there, but how optimistic Are you that we can move the whole culture? The whole society, especially right now, given how we are at each other's throats, where structurally incentivize to have beef right and not in the vegetarian way and given the social media fuelled, tribalism there. seeing sort of abroad in the land. How optimistic argue that we can inject or scale up this rationalist cosmic prospect? yeah. I don't need the whole world to be rationalized. That would be a pretty boring place. I think so much of

Human emotion fuels are creativity as what makes people an institutional life interesting it's where conflict comes in, which, of course, also involves emotion, said sancho. Make it clear that I'm distinguishing these elements here This tribalism that's created this division. We can quantify that. Ok, let's quantified, if there's protesters, this is not a story. Unfortunately, that were making up is actually happened. The protesters in the street someone gets a car and drives full speed into them. Kills aid or a dozen protesters Kay. This is a month's headlines in the local papers? It's a week's headlines in the nation. maybe, a day's headlines international. Ok, this is tragic and it came about from hatred and intolerance. alright eighty years ago,

we were in the second world war night, you can do the mass between timber. Nineteen, thirty, nine and september nineteen, forty five one. Thousand people were killed per hour for every hour of that war. So I ask you: are we better off today, or a nineteen, forty, three so yeah. If the worst is angry people on twitter and then they get cancelled. If that's the worst, we can report for disagreements today relative to eighty years ago, or even the first world war, which was nearly as bloody as the second world war, were doing better. It's hard to admit that, but we're doing better by almost every object. the measure relating to health and longevity and coal operation and basically

All of europe is at peace, with itself has ever have. Yes, we have this didn't russia, ukraine, but russia, not including as europe, europe is at peace with itself name a time in the last thousand years where that was true. You can't so yes, when you living in the moment, everything feels worse than ever I do a fair amount of reading of the history of people and goods and civilizations, treated one another and what role science played and either Bringing peace or bringing war are right, and so That's one view I have on your point back to the fact that we have systems in place that foster disagreement. My hope is that that's a temporary state social me it is still in its infancy- did still being shaped by we are legislation that surrounds it.

Still learning its power over us over opinions over politics over the geopolitics of the world was still learning in a when the printing press. Was invented, it would be at least a century. Maybe too I have checked with when it first broadsheet was printed Before someone realized, we can report news. This way. Newspaper matches printed paper century before summer I thought that up, but how long have we have social media? fifteen years in its current form. That's yesterday. so? Maybe we will make sure out these incendiary conflicts As we learn to interact with the very thing that we thought would save us, yet is this

cancelling the peace and tranquillity and, more importantly, the these civility that I think existed before. Another point is, however, hopeless. It seems I never swayed by hopelessness, policy. Never! But if you have hope in some outcome it's only because you have admitted you have no control over the outcome, You ve been controlled you in control of it, be actively controlling it. But what is Hope any graves it is the same side of the coin with prayer, its hope in prayer. That's why you hear them together. Hope in prayer are like I'm not in control, so I can do, is hope or pray for How come here's an obscure example, the pitcher it a baseball game, does not blessed himself before he throws a strike

because a pitcher conform strike on command on command. They can source drank a batter the best matters there ever were in the history of baseball bat at us, Thirty percent have hurt sam, percent of the time they're not getting ahead so the entire statistics of their presence at home plate is against them there hoping and praying that you're gonna carry it, and so there the batter blessing himself, and when they had a home run, they bless themselves twice. Ok, so they were not. much control the outcome as they wanted, so they rely on hoping prayer. But what I'm saying is minded of some of the lyrics of the song to dream the impossible dream they forget. Who wrote that forgive me, but it appeared in the broadway musical, A man of la mancha about don Quixote is a story about hotel in areas with his joust or whatever

stick and there's a windmill, and he wants to defeat the windmill. That's stupid, but we must not even add another night What what are you doing? What with the system- and then you realize this is metaphor for confronting a challenge it may seem impossible to overcome. and that's song- contains juxtaposed phrases that none of them. Back lyric, but has been the spirit of sailors, were strong enough to move the immovable object to stop the irresistible forest, and one of my favorite is, I want to march into hell for Heaven they cause great just because something is presented to you as Impossible were insurmountable, is not reason enough to not attempt to conquer it, and that is a bit of so

social, cultural wisdom. I keep within me because otherwise, you know just go home. Go leavers, go somewhere else If you don't believe you can change things that need to be changed, the nothing changes because maybe there's a solution. You'll think tomorrow, you never imagined. Was there yesterday give yourself so credit for ingenuity and art, real changes over the centuries and no saying Your country in the world is slavery, endorsed not long ago. You couldn't say that that's a real shift in how people interact with other people here are still killing him. but because he has, you should be my slave and I will only better that doesn't have now not at any minute

the country in the world. So, yes, we can change as a species as a culture and so yeah I'm good for it so get to say much of what you just said was actually quite a beautiful delivery of perspective on what ails us currently and I'm wondering we spent quite a bit. I'm at the beginning of this conversation talking about taking a rationalist approach to things. You also talk about having a cosmic perspective, and I think the overarching point you're making here as we should have a cosmic perspective, is being rational, just eight part of that. Yes and again, I don't want to overstate the vote. you of being rational, some of the most fund people. I've ever hung out with were just simply not rational, then spontaneous they do things. It might even be a little dangerous, but at the end they have a whole story about it. The next day

tenacity has great value. I don't think it should be people's goal, but again I want to tell people People make decisions about their own life. What I wanna do is Splay the causes and effects of thinking waivers is another, and then you decide so the book story, messenger cosmic perspectives and civilization. If its anything it's what the world looks like when you peer through a land of science, science, literacy and nearly everything looks different and science is one of the great trial of civilization that it exists at all. The shapes very world we live in. So much of what we care about in value in how we live comes to us from science, not only from our help. We are living twice as one on average, as people did. in the year. Nineteen hundred, ok, go back to the eighteen fiftys. The matrix when she was like

in the thirties, didn't improve much since cave man, so the advances in medicine and in sanitation, health in general and communication the saw engineering and science so now realising what it has done for us? Take that lessons now looked through it and things you're doing in your day get your saving the mouse, but you're cutting down fifty trees to live in the home that the mouse walks into? Have you thought about that? What are you doing? How our brain is badly wired to sing statistically about things unfortunate. I did just we're stuck with it. With this the hand were del ass humans. We are bad at thinking, probably thickly institutes read about everything. Oh by the way, an entire industry has risen to exploit that fact. The call casinos

Oh, my gosh, or the roulette table. Betting on seven may see why betting on seven so many times in a rough. Well, it's do was so? How do you know well look previous roles which they will show you at the roulette tables and alive Twenty role of the seven hasn't come up here to do, No, it's not, do every role has the same probability really serve as any about you. Don't know that because, if you're operate on your feelings, what should be true not on the reality of it, that's a scientific wines that, if not equipped with Others will exploit the absence of your scientific grounds but you have to be a scientist just be scientifically literate. Now, a second from that- and now you see earth as this ball in space adrift in darkness with. Carl Sagan said with no end of help from elsewhere,

coming to save us from ourselves that a cosmic perspective rises up beyond your dinner table in your thanksgiving arguments, then you go geopolitical on that one! It's like! Oh, my gosh! Here's birth as only nature intended. You see it with ocean where clare Does it look like this school room globe? We grew up with color coded with country it wasn't until I was an adult, a cynical. I look back on those years and I said why did they color code, the pot? Oh Ohio,. they can point to who were enemies, setting me up for joy, a political conflict, mary Ann and I'm angry that this was a part of that indoctrination. because earth in all its beauty has no national boundaries. And we are all one species,

If you come at it from that point of view, everything looks different and that book is my attempt to have you join in the celebration of how and why all that looks different, are you able to apply a cosmic perspective to the daily annoyances of life. yeah I mean what is it like? It is a combination of its sides, literate outlook and a cosmic perspective. The cottage perspective allows you to make a more accurate measurement Of things that might bring you down emotionally you just back in sable would also happening, and I'm getting upset at this. Why am I not getting observe that all right and by the way we live in a free country. People should do whatever they want, but if you do what you want at least be informed about it, Are you really stepping?

we're a homeless person in the street to go to a pet shelter to rescue a puppy. bringing it to the warmth of your home and feed it for thirteen until dies. Are you self aware that you stepped over other members of your own species, to do this, for a puppy. Ok for self aware find what I said: it's a free, country- and so maybe it simply not care about other humans, are you think there? the source of their own, their own misfortune. Ok, there's an actual twists! None that religious what were you see, someone impoverished in this or someone down on their locker down on everything and there's there, but for the grace of god go, I can't we ve all heard that phrasing It has a little bit of literary complexity, so it's not as easily

we stand when your child, bowing to get a little older sure will the formal equivalent of that is here, but for the wrath of god goes him is what you logically, the same construction, ok, and so when I take that you ok, Ask myself! Maybe I can do more for this person industry then I am currently an open your eyes when you have these other perspectives, just invert, it take a look at it from a distance put yourself in the situation that you are attacking My father was active in the civil rights movement and there were some ugly moments. Over those years the nineteen fifties and sixties, he was never bitter. Never

and my brother sister- and I I think, learned, if not explicitly but implicitly from this, because you end up recognising their people. You know the one to open, houses on the protesters are the ones screaming racial epithets at the school children in alabama just trying to go to school. Required the national guard to escort them into a school. Or to learn because others didn't want then, in the same classroom? Ok, you look at this. My father would say there were raised. They don't even know any better, the tribalism that we know is deep in us in some way I shouldn't use the word tribalism because it may many tribes and adjust nations were trapped, nations in made of states of the united states Senate

the word tribe, a bad name using it in that context. Why don't I say this in group, our group, I sense of the world. Can rear its ugly head. But if you knew nothing else, then housed expect them to be a course thinking to behave. That way, So let me she had to open it up for conversation, though europe bring weapons and shoot them. You say come into. This room must have a conversation. That's where starts without that its weapons, and then we get war, because one side is different from the other side. I like to think we're. We mature beyond world wars. As I stated said, almah world war three will be fought, but world war for will be fought with sticks and stones. Come up near the grass thyssen talks about applying a cosmic perspective to life and death and how death brings focus and intensity your life.

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Issues in society. cultural s, neck You know you see a bit of regressive behavior in people I don't see what the big picture? It's not that I know no, no! No! No! No! No But nor do I say, oh my gosh, this is affecting, emotionally. I need a quiet moment as an educator, but also as a general observer, acute observer, of everything I can't just as a scientist the world is this laboratory? right than you observe I, the bird on this branch, but not the other and its flight, This way, but not this way of the world. come out after the rain. I wonder why then have review of this. You know you think about your environment, so I think good scientists never turn off their sense of sharing our city, so scientists he's just a kid who never

We grew up. Ok, there's still curious about everything. Should they are more powerful and expensive tools to problem telescopes, microscopes laboratories in the sort of it? So there's a difference, I would say between having did effect you emotionally and eyes an observer I make note of it, and I say: ok in this situation, this person behaved in that way. And I followed that into a lesson that I bring to others. Will it become anecdotal? Will its shape the next post that I make on social media, because there are people out there that think this way Should I address them, but should I ignore them? So I'm strategizing, as I observe conduct, that is exhibited by people, especially the regressive conduct, and so I followed Into the next things I do

when I interact with the public, but now I dont want to call it an emotional shield because it applies, it would otherwise penetrate me, but it doesn't I'm saying that it's more valuable to me too. log it as something that humans are capable of doing and saying and think and using that to navigate future interactions with humans, so that sense now and preventing reaching inside me. It was never headed that way. To begin with, I was never that susceptible tom, if this is inappropriate, connection, are making here but buddhists, men. I count myself as one think about everything, including people as being governed by the law, cause and effect. This happened, therefore, that happens over and over and over again oceans of causes and subsequent effects, and so, when you're looking at people in their behavior, you can understand just as your father did about the people turning on the hoses,

that maybe, if I came out of that woman had that are bringing I'd, be doing the same abominable things yeah. So What concerns me about anyone who says buddhist believe this for anything believe that The sentence will never come out of my science I believe that now, ok, science only works at all because we don't believe the same thing on the frontier we thinking different things. One of them were board. Some variant of the one thing is: gonna beat the right path as supported by evidence, and so what I m saying to you is what discovered not to get all modern physics on it. We have discovered the quantum physics their finance they take place and have no known cause. If you invoke as a prerequisite. Everything must have a cause, then you could

and trying to find solutions that don't apply in situations. where there is no obvious caused to it at all. Ok, so this certain human behaviour There are not triggered by some. that happened in their lives. They just deeply not to examine the cause, is a billion years of evolution. Ok, we can say that there is a cause. Ok, but at most as accessible to your actions. In the way you were making their claim if the cause that they did this, because this happened to them are now the things happen without any obvious costs, is not a law of the universe, cause and effect them just put it that way, therefore, not one around thinking that way. But yes it applies in so many cases that we do have control over. So I'm only speaking to you and me absolute terms, not in the individual, asians, where it is actually,

the true thing that you have power to influence in your book. You talk about applying the cosmic perspective to life and death. Can you talk about that here, yeah sure, so one Chapters of his life and death, how could that not be something that I address in this book which preoccupies us all in profound way? So what I do there is take what science can say about it, but a cosmic spectre can say about an offer to either bring value to your life for inside soup or not but it's none the less objectively true, and so you can- receive that, in whatever way matters in your life, what's objectively true, is, but apart from your body

decomposing in the earth. If your buried, I I want to be buried by the way when I die, I dont need might bear ground, the location remembered cause care, but I want be buried because my whole life, have consumed flora and fauna these are living thing was in the tree of life, the flora and fauna that I have consumed that important requirement to my body. If I'm bury it that nourishment what's left of that, no, women are my death gets returned to the environment as worms, microbes and other training, creatures dying upon my flesh.

As I have dined upon their flesh, my entire life. So for me, that's what I want to give back to all the life that I have consumed: plant life, animal life, microbial life, all of the above so now adventures a personal thing. If you want to cremate, that's fine, no debt when you're cremated, the energy content. of your molecules gets released. We have complex molecules. The prize life and embedded in those molecules is stored, chemical energy. Lot of which we were running on when we were alive when you die I have the molecule just sitting there doing nothing, you introduce it to heat the molecules, break, open and release more heat. This is how a fire can start and then keep itself going idea of their molecules that are broken and the he gets released, your body and cream.

vision will keep the air in the smokestack, however, the vented, and that will go to the atmosphere heeding the atmosphere and then the energy of that heat in the form of infrared photons, to be specific we'll be irradiated out to space. So the energy of your content ultimately ends up travelling through space at the speed of light and no smoking to recollect, inform you again. But if you wanted to tour the universe in death That's how you through what right into a crematorium and you're a sand into the sky and into the vacuum space? Moving at the speed of light But for me a more interesting revelation that science brings to us.

is to recognise that the human genome- and I credit the first thoughts on this to richard Dawkins, an adoption the two it in my book here, but he's the originator of this outlook that, when The human genome- and you say: ok, How many possible ways can I configure the human genome and get a whole brand new. Other person gets an interesting question. How many total humans are possible, given the genetic variations in the gino while they ve been a hundred approximately a hundred billion people who have been born. Do you run the numbers on the genome in several ways you can do this calculation often get different numbers, all. The numbers are vastly greater. Then the hundred billion who have ever been work there in the great quadrillion

the number peeling point is a minuscule fraction of all. They could be born so weight of them. If that's the case, then the fact you- and I are alive at all- is against the stupendous odds against us. the way richard Dawkins put it it's weird key ones because we get to die I mean by that. What we want but die Most people who could exist will never even be bore. So for me, knowing that that's a cosmic perspective, the coast was from biology and sub, knowing that I'm alive when the chances are, I would have never been born, which is true for all the other people who will never be born Oh my gosh I should cherish

every moment, I'm alive, no man what hand I'm doubt, no matter what afflictions or elements I confront no matter how shorten my life is. We'll be from disease I might encounter or might have you're alive you get to smell the rose you get to see the sunsets you get to experience. All the discoveries about the natural world in ways that most the nations that genome will never even continent. Because they will never even exist, and so in that line of reasoning, I come to recognise that my knowledge that I'm gonna die is the greatest for they give meaning to my life because how much time do I look Do you know you look at the actuarial aerial tables? We don't get hit by a bus at least give us to the actuarial table. So I get stuff I need to do before I die.

Active lee, engaged in it, because I worry that if we find the fountain of use and we live forever. If no one you're gonna die. What gives meaning and purpose to your life didn't. Knowing that you'll never die mathematically would mean you'd live a life of no meaning at all, because why do today would you can just put off until tomorrow? So the knowledge of debt brings focus. and intensity, which is, I think, how we should all over one chance through this and then, if you think this way, once you ever take up arms against another person. Prematurely and ending their one chance to embrace this world we're. Gonna get guns to people, essay shoot those people over there

whole world thought this way. Life would be most cherished thing. There is yet there's entire institutions. The few life is cheap, but a cosmic perspective says now: it's not it's the most valuable thing we are, and we should cherish coming up. Neil talks about tat, his personal mental health regime,

and whether he thinks intelligent life exists in the universe, could not resist asking him that hey, I'm brook and I'm a and where the hosts of wondering podcast, even the rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and the biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about the teen movie icon, Gabrielle union. After spending her childhood trying to assimilate and breaking into a racist industry, Gabrielle thought her success met. Someone else had to fail, but when she space with hard choices beyond her control, she realizes that the only way to find real success is to come together and build community in our series. Gabrielle union, bigger, batter, better, will tell you.

She shook off her need for perfection, found her true self and created the life she always wanted, follow even the rich. Wherever you get your pot, you can listen ad free on amazon, music or the wondering app from wondering comes a new series flipping the bird villon versus twitter, the story, What happens when the richest man on the planet decide to apply a powerful social media company in the name free speech, but does he have what it takes? It started off promising, or is this all just about elon he's, essentially not that his tweets aren't performing as well as he plays with expansive enough to really just felt like okay? This really is just a platform being ruled by a dictator who does things on his own lands and what will be left to twitter by the time, dot. Basically, my entire things, this guy by the end of its infrastructure, which is completely guided, collect, tweet, a thing and then emeralds like we're. Gonna work on that now because he tweet

ass? Possibly this man is a genius despite everything that was kind of descending into chaos, model flipping the bird wherever you get your bag guess paper. I members you can listen epoch! Add real amazon, music, download, the amazon music app today. To quote you back to you, you say in the book being alive is the time to sell great being alive every waking moment, I'm curious behalf Oh good, are you add, applying your own advice here do have times where you distractedly scroll through twitter or get really him I Shan t or overlook important events that are unfolding in front of your nose. Yeah try not to do your best. You can overlook something, but if it happens to me it's by accident, could I forgot or I wasn't as sensitive to the needs of others as I should have been once

Why is that the new corrected or you put in reminders or whatever that is required? So it doesn't mean living a perfect life, but it shouldn't prevent you from trying to write it's back to the old, no one's perfect, but you can try to be and that has great benefits and when you succeed in that one where everything goes just right. And also, if I'm build into my life a case. and where I'm doing nothing, I'm just staring out when the night sky and thinking something, I think is less and less because the next generation this screen in front of him at all times. I don't know what we're learn from this with the council. Prison psychologists were saying about it from what I've read thus far is not good lad. People have access to everyone in a more isolated than ever before, and what the mental health consequences of that will be

as they move through life, or will they just arrive at some other equilibrium with those media, as we did with the invention of right there's criticism when writing was invented, or this going to be africa, who said it, some famous philosopher of antiquity, said writing. This is gonna, be the end of memory What reason would you ever have to remember anything? If you can, right everything down and this whole thing with storytelling, remember, passing from one generation to the next? You can write coming down he skipper. Generation it'll still be there, but no one would think that way at the time. So I now what the social media and these devices with a long term him that is a maybe we're over reacting to it. The anti writing people. Forget me too, to the writing with some. be the death of civilization. So I think that still remains to be fully research.

and concluded that to see where that will answer for me, an auto my meeting but an entertainment has value to. I want just stupid I'll do the idle seat is wasted time. If it's fun, that bring joy to life So when I samara dicing than I need to bring some intensity to my life. made everything I gotta get this done all they got? No! No! It means not wasting time, you know you ve, been spent, I'm doing nothing at least have deep thoughts, while you're doing nothing. Ok. and if you having no thoughts at all the least, spend those time doing something fun like a roller coaster, No one has deep fascia roller kid, just you just don't want to die depending on the speed of the thing, so there that's why we have things that entertain us. It serves the needs of what it is the human it what it is to be alive but sit on a couch and do nothing

serving neither your body nor your mind now remind yourself that one day you gotta be dead and their people who might have wanted to points that might have been more productive than you in your slot, but you you got that slot, so do something with it be more today than you were yesterday in whatever metric you invoke to make that happen, I'm curious for you Are there one two three four non negotiable when it comes to your recipe for positive mental health things, you do in your life that are really important for keeping you saying. the picture to me by non negotiable for me, everything's, negotiable, nonnegotiable, all of a sudden you confront something that's different from it and now is an argument, rights of nothing for me, Ah here any argument about anything so

That's not your method. You met these or anything. That's a fundamental part of my search for happiness that I make sure included my life at all times. I have very deep roots, looking up into the night sky as a child with a telescope. So in my adulthood, if I need to sort of re commune with the cosmos I'll pull out my telescope from the closet of a backyard telescope and I'll pull it out and I'll, you know go somewhere quiet and it's just me my telescope and the universe, and I'm not in front of any large audience, is doing a public talk on that faster neo in a classroom. I'm not cause neil on a tv programme. It's just kneel and the universe and his telescope, which is one of a conduit the cosmos when I do that this might comfort food? If you will

I am reminded of when I was a child first discovering these things through my backyard telescope at the time, and it's it's a way to reset what might be the case, cities of life. The problem is that I needed to solve by now, but I haven't yet and the other people who need me. to help them family or friends, at once, so that's something I returned to the habit available to me. I also like reading old books written by people centuries ago to just watch how they were thinking about the world and compare how their thinking about the world? How I think today, in this the twenty first century, they have ideas that they were true that didn't turn out to be true, but look at how much they invested in it or how much they wanted it to be true to how much today Are we saying on the frontier of science that in a century from now to centre,

from now we will look back I'd, say you know now that was quaint what they thought way back in twenty twenty three, but now you know so it is a way to embrace thinkers the past and bring a sense of pride for what they got right, but a sense of humility for it? You might have wrong as we go forward so those to a very important for me also curling up on a couch with family and watching a movie. There were We're due for having seen any kind could become at your drama science fiction, something that's a little bit escape list, but it helps you step into the lives of others, see the world through their ones. That can always be helpful. Any good novel that becomes a good movie will do that and are more likely to watch a movie of a novel into read the novel before the movie. So I mean a big part of my exposure to the human condition.

And how people feel and how they love and how they hate and why they do. These things comes from storytelling, which I greatly value me too, have you seen any space or sci fi movies or tv shows of late, that you recommend Well then, I recommend this different so Actually, I be curious to hear what you to recommend a movie armageddon which briskly, Save the world cannot Jeanne nineties that movie violated more laws of physics. permitted than any other movie? I'd ever seen until. The movie moon fall.

That's when we learn that the moon is actually a hollow alien vessel and its falling towards her? I just well, I didn't see anything could be arm again, and there was. This is the point to any space movie. His people go into space and something bad and that's the plot of fifty and for every disaster movie begins with a scientist morning. The authorities in the sun he's being ignored. Every disaster movies This is summarised them off in that one sentence. We had all these recently about you, ufos and chinese spinal wounds and the like what is your personal take. Given your vast amount of knowledge and study. whether we are alone in the universe or not yet so those are two completely different questions. What are these things? I can't identify floating around in our skies.

Are we alone in the universe? Those two completely different questions, but what's happened is those two questions is not your fault. Those two questions have been conflated to the point where you can have a newspaper article that says: government confesses that you foes are real. That headline makes no sense at all. in the following way. If you see a thing, running object up there. You are And by the way they re branded as you a peace, and I didn't ariel phenomena who they fully right. They mean you ever saw fit to get that straight If you see something you don't understand it is so the where you is there an identified and some object as one You just admitted you dont know what it is. You cannot then say

because I dont know what it is there for I know what it is, it's intelligent aliens visiting from another planet. You can't go from no two. I know I guess not. This might have reason. Reasoning works. You can, I don't know what it is less investigated further and see what it actually is as we have done with this chinese by balloon and some others and others we didn't. Oda was, and we still looking for the remains of whatever fine but the eyes here that we don't know something, therefore, its aliens isn't it, true ordinary, lead that any sane sceptic he's not gonna. Take they're not gonna, go there. I need better evidence the most common, items in the universe are the atoms that comprise life? Do you would have to be inexcusably? central to suggest that we are alone in the universe. So anyone who studied the problem is perfectly fine. Accepting the likely

of life elsewhere, if not in our own solar system, certainly elsewhere in the galaxy. Do you reckon its intelligent life most life on earth? We would not rate as intelligent, yet is Fourthly, thriving you know four billion years after its genetic ancestors so entirely This is not the measure of the success of a life form in any echo system. And intelligence. As we have come to know it contained the seeds around extinction and the ecosphere would say so. How intelligent were you when the Ratan witches are taking over your slot. So now I'm going to the question around on you and say well, who defined us as intelligent was the answer to it, we d find ways which would we be considered intelligent on this scale.

what other intelligent creatures in the universe that a cosmic perspective of high rank- and I basically addressed that in the chapter mind and body where our ego prevents us from even imagining that there are intelligent species out there. Who would break us in their club that my see us is so backwards and so insignificant as tonight even be interested in communicating with us. The next closest genetic species to us on earth. Chimpanzees cannot understand. simply spot, and so could it be that summit? urgent life form out, they're dead, the smartest among us cannot comprehend their simplice thoughts. If that's the case, if they didn't want to, I know we would never find it so we need to think there isn't life of all forms of their possibly like vastly more intelligent than we are. What you take on this popular

idea that we're living in a simulation yeah, it's hard to argue against it. I do offer an argument against it in the book, but for those who don't know the argument is a simulation is imagine a civilization that smart enough and figured. I haven't computers and therefore came and they create worlds within the computers that are so complex? characters in the world? Don't know that their characters in the world and they what they perceive as free. Well, so those characters, overtime, build computers, they invent computers, as we did. Ok and the characters of those computers create a world a universe. If you will and then all the way down the satan. Repeats a hundred times now close your eyes, throw a dart which universe you likely to hit the ninety nine that are simulations or the one that started them all, statistically,

You're gonna be in the simulated universe and is a simple and powerful argument, there were in assimilated universe, but the argument I given the book, which I think is the strongest among them, is you programmer computer, if only knows logical decisions, the computers dont have the baggage that our brain, as the where oh, I have emotions, and I feel this and I dunno- if I should do that, because I dunno, because I bet that the computer Has no such limitations, so I'm thinking every world it creates. Will rational things going on the likes of which we do not see in our own world. So I call it the inanity Events be inanity defence, if this we're a simulated world, the wooden

is so much irrational, behavior exhibited by it's residents, and so that's my best evidence that we are not a simulation, I'm going to use that next time. I get into this discussion, but just a couple of other questions by before referred to the first as being infinite or seemingly infinite and is actually true is the universe infinite to the best of our knowledge, there's horizon beyond which we cannot see. but the universe continues beyond that. Horizon dislike dismiss a literal horizon. If your ship at sea And you see to your horizon, are you saying to yourself with us the edge of the earth. That's all there is now the ocean goes beyond that. If you, if you sail, words you are horizon, you seem were horizon, show up until you get a land, so in the universe, there's a horizon. What the universe does beyond that, we made never know, could be infinite, possibly wilma.

Science, at some level, you need to learn to love the questions themselves. What is that? U s? Now I don't know, what's investing Where is the edge of the infinitely idler cut top people? Were him? That's what it is to be signed. you said a while ago, and I didn't follow up on it. I was talking about this buddhists concept of cause and effect sometimes referred to his karma use it before in effect, is not a law of the universe is helpful that it gets you pretty far, but I'm just saying if you staring at a particle that is unstable, it will decay on its own herbs without any cause, triggering it? It's a purely statistical manifestation of nature. That's what quantum physics it things happen. Statistically, it just happens. Einstein went to his grave thinking

in physics was incomplete in need of some anchoring an objective cause and effect reality. The famous schrodinger's cat is a cat in a box It is simultaneously alive and dead until you make the measurement, whether it's alive or dead, but why What's in the box and before you look at it, before you may, the measurement of it. It is both alive in debt and their ways to show this, a mental. So I'm just saying you can make a statement that's been true so far, maybe, but what we ve learned sciences for every next. frontier that we step upon their new things it might violate some previously have law that you thought was a long law of conservation. don't matter, No, it's a law, conservation matter and energy pulse-

and so I'm not gonna looked a buddhist buddhism and say you're right about this. Universe. This is not how it works. It's possible that sometimes things happened for no reason with no cause It happens all the time they were correct in the quantum world. Can stay gonna, get you out of this and say no known cause. Maybe one day we'll find a cause right. Now we don't know the cars I'm telling you you consider bear asked the particles sitting in front. And you're looking at it and spontaneously decays into two other particles and not on your clock, on its own clock and you didn't do anything and blow on it. You didn't do anything, no cause, Neil digress, tasted. It such a pleasure to talk to you. My final question is: can you just please

remind us again of the name of your book in any other things, you ve, written or resources. You ve created that you wanted to remind this sure if anyone's interested. Much of this conversation was derived from knowledge in sight, in researching preparing in writing the books, starry messenger cosmic perspective. civilization story: messenger is directly lifted from galileo's first book called starry messenger, where he is a telescope to reveal things about the universe that people didn't know were true or in a worst case want to be true. The earth was not the centre of our motion. The story. Messengers like the star, bringing messages to us that made disrupt your understanding of your place in the universe and, of course he got into big trouble with the catholic church for a combination of reasons, including that he's fine.

things out that were inconsistent with What people were sure were true from biblical genesis, and so my favorite coachman galileo is- The bible tells you how to go to Heaven now how the Heavens girl You could say that, because he had his telescope, went up and looked at the sky, so without go It was permission, barring the title of his books story mess, your cousin, more messages from the stars generation in this century this millennium. That concern that same role that his discovery serve in his generation and house have a pug cast startled. which combines comedy pop culture and science and says very irreverent fun and before I smile and laugh why you're learning some size the net. That's definitely for you, and you just go to my website neil addressed here

in the calm and you can see books and other projects that I've been involved in all in the spirit of bringing the universe down to earth, for who ever will pay attention. The good news is a lot of people are paying attention neil Degrasse Tyson. Thank you very much. Thanks for your interest, thanks for having me thanks again to Neil Degrasse Tyson, very cool, to meet him. I guess for the second time I was on his show not long ago. Thank you very much for this Go rate and review us if you ve got a second that really helps us and thanks most of all to everybody who worked so hard on. The show ten percent have here is produced by adjusting davy Gabrielle sacrament, DJ mere Lauren psmith enteric anderson are supervising pray There is more research, neither men and can be regular, is our managing producer scoring mixing by Peter bonaventure of ultraviolet audio and nick thorburn, the great band islands,

I think, with you on Wednesday, four, a brand new episode, we're talkin to the dormitory eugene cash with part, two of our eightfold pats years, a prime members. You can listen to ten percent happier, Earl. and ad free on amazon, music. Downloading amazon, music cap today or you can listen early, an ad free with wondering, plus in apple pie cas before you go. Do us a salad,

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