Four may be seen as the ten percent happier vodka in her you guys, are excited. This is the first time we're doing this. We are launching a series so for this pod and the two episodes that follow its they're gonna, it's all gonna, have a theme in the theme is, has made a little bit to say this, because I d really love this term. But this the theme is self compassion. I don't like that term. It sounds vaguely Otto erotic or just released movie and lame, but it's an incredibly useful concept at midday. We ve been trying to figure out new ways to talk about it like self care without being selfish or going easy without going softer, go easy with, the internal cattle proud, which is that we are talking about in ten percent happier nonetheless, as I say it incredibly useful, I have found it to be an incredibly useful concept, because we especially here in the west many of us

do an enormous amount of self laceration self judgment- and I am of course, as a you Know- Taipei Ambitious purse- of the view that a certain amount of dry I'd Self analysis makes sense, Juno taken a good look at you know where you ve made about decisions or areas where you can do makes him improvements. All of that makes a lot of sense on that of the view that we shouldn't be evaluating our work critically It's just that we add layers and layers of shame and self hatred which I think, which I think we think I have historically. But made me better boosted. My address, I there's a giving amount of evidence now that it actually reduces you or ability to focus and be resilience. And it ends up. In many is hurting your relationships with other people which, of course you need in order to be successful, so guess number one.

He's jostling lie. I heard about her courtesy of past yes on the show. Seventy Selassie, who is also one of the most popular teachers in the ten percent, happier app Sab. Recommended. I check out Joscelyn podcast, which is called hurry slowly. She describes it as a pot cast about how you can be more product, of creative and resilient through the simple act of going down and just one has thereby cash is also written books about. You know, doing creative work in the age of distraction and the first thing I listen to from Johnson was a part, a short podcast about a term, she invented called productivity, shame which totally land for me, because I spend an enormous amount of time, feeling shame for but getting everything done that I need to get done and She had an enormous number of useful in cycle and helpful things to say on the subject,

you will hear them now. For yourself. We also talk about. This is another term she invented. I don't love it just because you'll hear wife, because of my personal tastes, but on all of the term itself. But I love the idea she calls at heart, centred productivity, so yeah, She also to another term that falls in the same bucket, great idea. I might quibble with the language and a little bit given my idiosyncrasies. Tender discipline, that's another term. She coined the idea that we can be weakened have discipline. We can work towards deadlines. We can do it in a way that isn't so self lass rating we talk. How to set realistic deadlines. We talk about actually enjoying the process of doing your work and we talk about saying email practices, so a lot here before we dive in. I just want to say that if you are interested in issues relating to focus, we have two courses, excellent courses with the eminent meditation teacher share in Salzburg up on the ten percent

happier app and if you are new to the app don't forget, you can always check it out with a seven day free trial enough for me. Here we go Joscelyn K lie. So called to meet you. I said to you when I walked in the room I feel like. I know you because ever listen, your pocket so much I feel like I well moving over didn't know. You were feel like your bedroom. I had a lot of people have battle, filling it's kind of funny having a pike ass to maybe you ve experiences, some friends of mine feel like we're in touch when I haven't spoken to them for months, because they were set in the past. It really good stuff him. I will make just outlook dear liberty for background. How did you get so interested in issues related to? This? Is the right word to use productivity and how we work

What why is this? Such a huge focused for you won't so prior to doing the podcast very slowly I was working on is essentially at the time sort of start up inside another start up called ninety nine you, which is part of this larger company, called be hints on which is kind of a link then of the creative world. And I ran the smaller part of it, which is called me. Can I meet you, which was a website that had interviews and articles tips, the book series that I created and is also a big conference that happened sexually across the street here at Alice Tully Hall, at Lincoln, and it was all about how people make ideas happen. So the name? Ninety nine, you actually comes, not Thomas Edison Quote geniuses, one percent, inspiration and ninety nine percent perspiration, and so the sort of mission of the entire brand was really too not explore inspiration like how people get ideas, because we felt like there's so much on.

And around man. That's not the part. This really hard. The hard part, is kind of seeing something through right executing on an idea. So in the process of editing. This website encouraging speakers for this conference and creating a spook series I interviewed hundreds of creators and designers and entrepreneurs about you know how they make ideas happen, how they organise their days, how they build their careers, and so that really kind of lead me down this path of really looking pretty deeply at productivity in and also creativity. Why, having such a big issue right now Productivity yeah reprieve it feels to me like people, are mattocks the answer. I should of course ask this question like the answer. Isn't super obvious, but if you ask me like this, that I hear about this allowed now, people having trouble getting stuff done now, but

because we're so bombarded by technology yeah. Well, I mean, I think, there's a number of causes, but I think one of the biggest ones is unanimous. Technology, but so much of the shift in technology has been about shifting the onus civically onto the individual. So if you think about in a sort of the flattening of the workplace, you known, of course, developments like email and slack in all of these things, they sort of ring more and more work specifically on to the individual and- and this also been sort of them. I think a little bit of maybe Ragman of the traditional job. So it's not just like your doing kind of one task. May people are juggling a lot of different projects and there's other as is well but kind of that view over reaching idea, and so I think all of those factors mean that there's this onus of self management that we have That is really emerged in the past Hannah

twenty years which is really new and is really difficult and really demands a lot of that sort of like front The executive function to really switch between tasks and manage multiple projects and track, how ya doing in a way that is pretty new used to have more support? I think more, managing more mentoring, and also, of course, you know, there's something new freedoms right. You can work for yourselves Work from anywhere, but all that means that there is a lot more responsibility an you- and so I think, that's kind of why we're thinking individually and reflecting internally, like so much more about productivity. Oh, what a lot of your work is kind of a reaction against. Will you call to fake products? every or serve the toxicity of some of the self help around in this area. So what's your beef with the way this subject is most often discuss what

I think if fake productivity is less about how other people talk about productivity and more about what we get sucked into feeling? is productive or what we get sucked into doing with our time and a huge part of that is the technology peace. The you referred to. So you know, if you look at things like I mentioned, email I mentioned slack remain. In our social media. These things, really it in on the way that their, engineered right by these technologists. A kind of tat happened. You SAM. He behaviors that we as humans, fine rewarding. So if you think about em, there's concept called completion by us. Rather, humans like to recognise the task is complete and when we recognise a task is complete. We get a little head of dopamine. That makes us one assertive:

Repeat those behaviors, but what it means is. It also makes a sort of predisposed to like to do quick, easy to finish. Asks, and it also means that we really like to see progress right, and so, if you think about something like email or checking, your slack notifications or checking your social media notifications is really quick, easy to finish tasks and also tasks. We gotta see progress right. You gonna get a widow down that notification count or that message count and. Those that those features of those technologies. I think really pull us into doing that kind of work that feel in a surface e way, productive right, like I had fifty unread masters now I got amongst era like a sort of feels good in the short term, but you then he turned to look up at the end of the day and you ve been busy all dying at you feel like you did nothing that was using other people's priorities. Not your!

precisely. One of the frustration of is, as I spend so much time, yanked around by other people's demands, just dealing with the incoming as opposed to doing programme. Were you have one I think there's this there's this other concept they talk about, which is the rule of ratification, which has the idea that we as another should human behavior thing written this. This idea that as humans were raised to be social animals and We want to return a positive action with another action rights. If you like, give me a birthday present than when it sherbert Jack and I feel like I shall give you a birthday present and for the most part you know, that's good assertive, encourages the social contract right and encourage a sort of flu human relations, but one of the interesting things about that is that I want to reciprocate. Even if I didn't want you to do the thing that you did for me right, and so, if you think about this lakes fire hose of, as you say

emails or demands and request that we receive there's a sort of like core human part of us that wants to reciprocate but the problem is in this digital there's no boundaries right, your inbox, never shuts down. It's never like Dan is busy like he cannot manage. You know he only as twenty four hours in the day he is exhausted and he can't handle any or more email. So we're not accepting it right. The digital world is like to spring and bring an end, no boundaries it's the now, and so that kind o leads us into this you know were now in this space, where you can run entire life based on other people's requests and demands right, and so there's this. We talked about ten of the the onus of self management a minute ago, and so there is a huge part of that. Now is real he about setting boundaries, in saying no in a way that I feel like as fairly unprecedented, and it is quite difficult I want to highlight that I conflated too

concepts earlier. One was fake productivity and the other is kind of your critique of self help, so we'll get to your predictive set up for a second and in a second. But let's stay mistake: fake products. I guess the two questions are coming up. You can take him whatever already want one is that so I've kind of de facto designate, it's Saturday, which has worked day from example good morning America against Saturday. After I finished the show, I usually set aside a few hours to deal with my email, backlog, and I feel reasonably good when I finish eggs, a lot of it is so our work, and if I dont do it, do you know it's, I feel anti social, so he's that truly fake productivity. So one question question is how do you set boundaries and start saying now? Those are two totally unrelated questions. I think, but but they're, both in my head on throwing a match I remind you if you, whatever way, I mean it No, I mean, I don't think that's I mean it certainly has

portion of your emails are valuable and are related to you know things that you need to do that are related, probably important, important goals that are meaningful to you, that you want to accomplish right are a hundred per cent of those emails related to those types of things most, certainly not. Remember, looking at there's a pretty interesting study that was done in the Harvard Business Review a while ago with senior management, so people you think are pretty good at managing their time, are successful and they looked at how they use their email and their numbers but one of them was that, basically about fifty percent of the emails that those be responded to work emails that had nothing to do with their job and they didn't really mean to respond to get us. That's senior managers wasting, maybe fifty percent of their time. Responding to

They are not relevant right and I think that's the way that all of us react. You know there's a lot of you know we have that urge to reciprocate, and so we are not responding to things that may be. Are not that important and the other thing that I think happens within is specifically, is like you know the way that your inbox boxes, organise everything serve, looks like an equal priority right. It's not like me. Maybe gmail contact something a priority sender, but you know there's not weight given two things that are more important, and so of lures. You enter this. You know habit of disruption, to everything as if it were of equal importance I'm so like. What am I rules for myself is like not to treat emails from strangers of as if they were urgent, yet had just like a tiny little, to make right and I mean maybe it could be

You might be an important stranger like coming on this pie gases. You no good and valuable thing for me to do, but that's kind of a rarity in terms of people eat out now getting in touch with you. So I would say yes, part of that, of course is part of that. By that I mean checking your email is valuable productivity, but I think a huge part of it is not only think we're gonna get sucked into treating everything almost as if a very well tat your second question, which is that how do we set boundaries and say now it s not totally effect right? I have a lot of stuff comes over the transfer money. You oh, is from aspect for myself. Is strangers, or people I kinda, no ridicule. I know really well ask me for something I want to do it, but I mean it takes away from the stuff I'm getting paid to do. You know I want to be a good citizen and a good friend of ours of, but it just overwhelming, yeah one. I think I may make a probably do like a whole pie- gas, none saying now or more,

hope, I guess and saying now, but a couple of ideas I mean. I think that the first thing is that, because it so easy for us to swim in the sea of responding to other people's request. You know we have that sort of sense that, It may be the end of the day we we'd just Canada, busy work. We didn't do stuff. That was that meaningful, but I think because we're so caught up in this, now in going to meetings in kind are running around like chickens with our head cut off from one things in the next. We don't take time to get really clear on our goals and thinking about what are the things that I want to do. That would be meaningful. You know what what is the stuff that I would were in the grand scheme of things and if he don't identify that stuff, how do you now. What things to say no to if you're setting boundaries, you kind of have to set those boundaries around something right, and in this case red Andrews we go around like I want to protect these things that I think are meaningful, but I think most of us are so caught up in this rat ways that we don't need them take time out to do that so either, of course,

making time to do that which is fairly obvious through the first thing? And yet we dont do it and The second thing, like a super super small thing that I think is really interesting, is on ding when you're responding to emails when you're saying no to things from saying. I can't do that too. I don't do that So you know like I rather than saying I can check emails on Saturday. It saying I dont check email on saturdays or rather saying I can't miss my Jim work out. I don't miss my Jem work out in that comes out of this study. That was done. It looked at people and I think the specifically Meares resolutions and how to get them to stick to those resolutions, and so the study was really actually about self talk. How do you talk yourself internally and they found that when people would say you know I don't miss major mark out rather than a canvas major mark out. They are more likely to do their homework up, but I think it actually carries

oh averting email, for instance, in a really useful way and for a couple reasons one because you know I think the thinking behind this is that when you say you can't do some sort of implies like like I do it now. Under these circumstances, with circumstances were different, then I could write. It often leaves the door open for somebody. Gonna come back at you with that request and indifferent form, whereas when you say you don't do something, it sort of gives the sense of like a hard and fast rule or principle, and when you frame it that way usually have to come but the reason why you know so if someone was asking me to do is speaking egg, for instance- and I was going to say- and I am I dont- do speaking engagement, so I dont use,

king agents in the summer that should have a natural like why it s a kind of almost asks you to form some principles around. Why you're saying now, which is interesting, but the thing is a deep personalized that rights as Non Ike. I cant do you're speaking engagement. It's like I dont do speaking agents is not something that I do not have a true for. You know that Sancho, for example, but I am do them only very rarely, but so UNICEF kind of deeper slices as well, which I think is one of the things that people find such hunting with saying now. Is you know that that's her personal aspect? I, like that alot just go back to another thing. You said about prioritization I went through a process recently using there's a website called Trillo. Were they create these kind of boards? Fellow boards, you're from I read your I haven't used child. I am familiar with. I said the ceo of timber time happier was a little concerned, Slash frustrated.

Me for being overwhelmed and complaining about the lobbies like we can create a boy. I don't. I have described trailer well enough, but basically you create a board of your priorities. You do without any thing, but in this case, where do my priorities and I found it really for TAT, was clear that at the highest level priority there really only two or three things: Then we graded amid low, not now, not ever. Really gave me a lot of clarity, and then we did it with a little committee that was the ceo. My wife was very cherished with her time as it pertains to me, and I'm not sure this is translates to all relationships with the nature of our relationship. She's alive Very much in it in a very involved in helping me be a better person generally and also just work more efficiently ends and wisely and then also another colleague, my colleague Grace Livingston, whose

the Bruges on the show and also worked with me on this new book? I'm writing says little Committee of the four of us we actually are now meeting regularly to go back over the trail aboard Is this all sound like this, this job, with your philosophy about how to how to work in a more effective way yeah. Absolutely I mean you know one of the things that we were we were talking about before we got they are live here was a related to this podcast. I also created a course which is called reset, and the whole first section of that course is about intention and motivation. And the first lesson in the course is literally about setting goals, and it's actually also about the psychology of how we think about our goals, which is kind of interesting.

But the reason that I have people do that at the outside, but she actually kind of difficult. It's not like a particularly pleasant way to start the course, because it involves like a lot of soul searching and so some people kind of her like they find it like a little bit challenging. Probably, but the reason that I do that, and so it starts out, was setting goals and then it talks about how to track and kind of celebrate your progress, which probably part of sort of a unintentional side effect of having the Trillo Board, is that you get a see yourself taking those priorities off unkind of recognising as a group in and looking at, where your progresses and the other thing that's happening for you with that as well, which we talk about in the third less. I'm in this intention of motivation section is accountability right, so not relying on your own will power. Alone to in a complete some sort of long term, project and the reason that we start out without staffing goals in particular is

You know what I touched on earlier is it you have to have that framework in order to set boundaries, and now in order to look at your calendar and say But what am I really trying to carve time out for right if you're, for trying to kind of fend off all these meetings and other request. You have to be kind of clear on legal. Ok. What do I need time for? What am I trying to accomplish? What meetings do align with my brain parties, and if you're, not clear on this thanks you're. Just how are you make any decisions you now and then how are you gonna, set boundaries and and say now and can do all that stuff you now which, as we talk about it, it's you know, as I say, it's kind of a cut of obvious, but I think that we're just you know There are so many things that are always here to occupy our time that you really have to be intentional, about carving out space, to think about that stuff of accountability. Peace for me has been huge breed, and I'm pretty new to this to thinking about how to work,

in a way that isn't so frantic and I'll. Just you know again, I don't want to say talk, I'm going to talk more about. What's going on with me and my wife, but I dont want to say it in a way that every I know plenty plenty of close friends with wonderful marriages where this wouldn't work right it just the nature of their by ship isn't. So I don't want to say that if this doesn't work for your marriage is now your marriage is jacked up. What I'm saying is in my relish of my wife, I she's my never won the closest adviser and she has the bandwidth to lean in and advise me. So we now do this thing after we created the trailer board that not only do the does the little committee,

forget, together once every six or so weeks to checking on the trail aboard but Bianca, and I every Sunday afternoon get together and just talk about it. I knew we look back over the counter for last week. Did I do the things I said I was gonna do and what coming up this week- and you know I've big chunks of time carved out for the book and sometimes that those chunks yet whittled down because of other requests that have come over the transom and we evaluate together like What did I make the right decision this past week in saying yes to these things that took away from my main priority, which a finishing my book, etc, etc, and I've just found having some areas, trust me on my side. Working through this will need to be incredibly valuable, yeah I mean, I think we all have the sense, and certainly I used to have the sense that you know if you couldn't complete some massive. Project on willpower alone, it they are falling short or failing in some way

and I was finally take on projects with fever, no accountability or having no sort of partner to help me and now actually work with with a coach, which I found incredibly helpful, and you can tell me if this is true for you, but I think one of the the biggest by products of that of having you know it could be a collaborator. A coach and accountable the partner, whoever it is for you is, if you are like myself very ambitious best rage, human oriented person, as I believe you are as well, what you tend to do is you tend to never think about what you ve accomplished. There's always looking forward to the next thing right where we haven't accomplished and when you have that accountability partner. In this case, your wife In my case, a coach. I find that I spend a lot more time recognising what have accomplished right because

you have that meeting any that kind excited ragging know. You're gonna have that meeting and some sort of think about like. But what have I done that thing and have I done that thing and yes, I have no. I haven't done that thing, but for me. Taking the dialogue, I've just driving myself internally and sharing it with someone else and having and accountability partner means a lot more recognition of progress, which then, of course makes you, Oh god, you now, whereas opposed whereas Eu Dominoes, all internal, I would never read, I thought that only be focused on what I hadn't accomplish yet, and I think that is a profound shift yet on one that really allows you to be more compassionate with yourself will say more about that, because it was, I actually scrolling notes and myself as rewriting here in the thing I had written down that I wanted to get to have a long list here. But what are the exact just written down was celebration?

celebrating things you ve done. I feel like I do a terrible Jabba that, even though I now have this newly minted accountability partner, we I don't think we're really celebrating that much but its eye. I noticed that in your work and- and I dont fully understand how to do it, and so I thought it might make sense for you to say more yeah. One said this: the idea of celebrating progresses is when I mentioned that I do teach in this in this course, as I feel incredibly important in that really originally came to me out of this research of three sir, a mob allay who is professor and researcher at the Harvard Business School? and she had a really wonderful book- called the progress principle and she did a study, should a fairly long term study.

Trying to remember how many people it was, it wasn't huge, maybe like four hundred people. In any case, she had them keep a daily journal for about six months. These are people at work so that they had to write at the end of the day for about five minutes in a what rear, major victories and what we're setbacks during the day, and so she, you know, then took all the data from these journals. Kind of you know crunch. The numbers are crunch, the feedback, so to speak, of what she found was that what made, what have the biggest impact on people's mood, their sense of well being and their sense of motivation, was making meaningful progress, at work, but it was in. You know one thing that she talks about as this concept of small winds, of a sort of these baby steps right and acknowledging those baby steps,

which is something that I think we really tend not to do. And so for me, that's kind of underpinning this idea of thinking about ok? Well, how do we track our progress and how do we, celebrate our progress and in a sense you know, you're saying why not released operating. But I think just the tracking and the recognition of the progress is innocence of celebration in itself, because it something that we normally completely just below right by, as were you know, in pursuit of these goals, so I think actually, tracking that price whereas in a very analogue way is what I recommend. So you know what I

working on a bug I had a you, know handwritten calendar, and you know I write down my words written everyday as a way of kind of tracking and celebrating my progress, but you know there's many different things like if you're up you know salesperson, it could be like you know: cold calls made per week. You know if your programmer could be lines of code written anyting but I think that acts of tracking the progress and of making an analog, because for me there's something about when its analogue is usually visible right? So, however, your tracking, this progress, like creating a system for yourself and literally putting it up like on a wall in your work space, you kind of see it in a regular way, literally see yourself making progress. You can, of course, do this with digital apps. For myself personally, I find

there's, something much more rewarding about just kind of being confronted with it constantly. And just kind of updating it by hand having a little bit of self criticism, because what I really the guy the got. This is such an important topic me right now, as I struggled to right and left aren't book than I am getting a little excited and just chasing all the shiny objects and ask you a million questions. Really gave you an opportunity to describe what your core philosophy is. Before we do that, though, let me just go back to the one of the questions asked early on, but I didn't ask in the right way, which is your: what seems to me, like much of your work, is reacting against the way productivity is talked about and of interested to hear that critique and then move into what you actually stand for right, we'll get. Those two things are completely relate,

and so I think, to the way that I kind of categorize when I talk about the past and what a teaching the course is, this idea of kind of heart centred productivity. Which is easy to talk about by talking about kind of what it's not, which sort of the critique of what's happening now and that's the sum. I think really like a sort of speed, obsessed idea of productivity so and I think, We ve gotten this place right Lee comes out of the way that technology has kind of slowly and I would even say a little bit insidiously kind of change our values, I think of it, as I call it. Certainly digital. We have this digital values of kind abuse. Worked through this twenty four seven, their action with technology

anything of those values as being a couple, a different things and instant gratification focus on instant gratification, a focus on short term rewards, and this kind of feeling of like no boundaries detailing exponential growth or freedom, so instant gratification. You know you look at. We talked about slack right. I can instantly message you I can instantly got in touch with you. You think Netflix, Spotify, Amazon, Prime Goober, right all these ways in which you can get music movies, groceries a taxi and other persons attention right completely kind of on.

Demand right, and so you start have this feeling that maybe you should be able to execute on demand right. A kind of seeps and thinking about this idea of short term rewards. Obviously, that's related to instinct gratification, but again going back to what we touched on, I'm thinking about email or think about slacker. Just checking your social media notifications right these it you get these little kind of. We talked about that completion by us right, yet that little hit of dopamine when you complete this task and a kind of reinforces this idea of short term, rewards right of getting something really really quickly. But, of course, the work that we do. That really has meaning usually is long term, and it takes a long time like writing, a book which are working on now right and sets challenging and its difficult, and it's very opposed to that kind of modality. Thinking. And then this no boundaries, peace constantly you'd. I think

this idea of the Digital South, which will I'm touched on Earlier- is, as you know, I'm available twenty four seven, I'm always on right. You know, I don't have a door to my office. I don't have an office anymore. I'm working in an open plans, space You know you don't leave work at five p, dot M or six p, DOT m right or email follows you everywhere, and then you know, there's all these kind of start up stories like exponential growth, and you know this feeling like everything, should be able to expand. Infinitely, and so there's just really this feeling of kind no boundaries, that we get from our technological interactions and so all of those things, Instagram vacation short term, no boundaries are kind of service of this idea like speed and efficiency again over everything else. Right, and I think the problem with lad is that its

fundamentally opposed to we work as humans in how to our well being, and I think it's also fundamentally opposed to doing anything. That's creative, because this kind of fundamentally opposed to the creative process, which is by nature and inefficient process that cannot be Ah, you know improved and made more efficient and the way that you could make like a foreign assembly line more efficient, so this idea of heart centre productivity that I talk about is kind of like ok, let's, let's discard the super efficiency speed focused approach, approach which is really leaning, assented burn out in others, a study, that's done every hour, call the general social survey which looks at about they talked about thirty. Six thousand people

in America and of ask them how they're doing and part of it is about work and they asked people. Are you regularly exhausted from your work and they did that city a couple years ago, and fifty percent of people said and re really exhausted from work right. So, there really is a kind of rising burn out phenomenon. I think it's from the speed obsessed way of working and says leading us into Bernard and also as in a plane. Even as we're headed into burn out we're not really doing work that feels meaningful because you can't do work. That's meetings on this lie, so that's kind of that's kind of their critique and then. For me, the the sort of solution is, is moving that sort of more hard centred lab working. So what is that look like heart centred productivity? Now I mean so. I think it's. You know we ve touched on some of it already right. So we talked about. This idea of you know it's a kind of tracking your progress and celebrating,

your progress on, but it really is about moving out of I mean that's one aspect of it, is really about a few different things. I mean really kind of getting back into your body. I think our speed of approach can oppose the super into the head super into anxiety. Superintend really stressed out place so kind of getting back into the body, so a lot of them. What I talk about in the course is about your kind of natural circadian rhythm rights of the twenty four hour cycle of energy peaks and dips that we all naturally oh through over the course of a day and kind of learning how to align your work with those natural body rhythms and, unlike what does by rhythms, are. What are you know when is your kind of cognitive energy peak like one is a good time to exercise? When do you need to take a break, how to figure that out

Well, it's I mean there is the simplest way, this kind of three the shirt three different, our typewriters, that kind of regular bird early bird Nite, owl type of our type. What about. Like wounded bird, I think that what is intended by one on working leg right wing right that our bedroom, That's outer that's out of alignment of your circuit in rather nice the right it s trying to do too much by in terms of EU nonsense. The easiest way to think about it is thinking about kind of when you like to go to sleep and when he liked to go to when you liked to wake up when you're kind of inured most natural kind of modality, I mean it. I asked I remember asking scientists like how will how can I exactly figure out my circadian rhythm and in fact, you literally have to its related to core body temperature, and you were literally have to have a thermometer

in your body for, like three weeks, monitoring your temperature constantly to figure out your precise circadian rhythm. So it's like a very em. It's holding science. There's not like us, simple diagnostic questionnaire you can take. But these things to look at sleep patterns and early bird as someone who likes to make up at me, no five. I am issue, regular bird of someone who likes to wake up, maybe seven, seven hundred and thirty, eight ish and the night owls. Usually more of you, know somewhere really doesn't like a Pitbull ten, a dot m to eleven, a dot m and, in the course go through and break down like a cable, whereas I kind of look like four year, circadian rhythm throughout the day and in any case, to kind of circle back to kind of answer. Your question about hearts and productivity without getting too lost in the circadian rhythm in others. There is an aspect of really coming back into the body and figuring out o my body and my brain or like a play,

and ass. You now, and it's actually like a really powerful tool that, if rather than and of running, roughshod over my body if I were to actually leg think about how I got a line with that. Then I can work in a way that is actually more productive and much more powerful while doing less time, because I'm kind of working within my natural energy. So that's part of it and then I am again. A huge part is about per annum. Setting in assigning boundaries as we talked about, but there's no a huge part this really about shifting the way that we frame our productivity and pave the way to be taught to ourselves in our head about because they think they're so much. The just so much self criticism right with kind of as you said at the outset, this we just all sort of like full imbibed, this notion of like productivity and like being at workers. We have to be productive and that's even Howie

we review our day, like that. I have a productive day. It's like a question. We ask ourselves right somehow bats become the yardstick, but I think that leads to that kind of really beating ourselves up, because we we are getting kind of getting pushed by the tides of other people's requests and demands like we talked about going to pay. Too much and get overwhelmed, and then we You know, and I M kind of, and a beating ourselves up and so a lot of this, the shift. I try to effect with the course in this idea of heart centre productivity, is really about and it is really about just kind of getting back to serve a more natural, humane way of working, but also just understanding our limited, like understanding literally like what are your limitations and I think people find it a real relief you now when I say yes, we talk about like how much good attention Can someone exercise in a day in an

And if you look at the science of peat performance, it's like forty four and a half hours a day of like really like hard concerted attention, a max that most people can execute and when you tell people that their like Take a leaf men. Like you know, of any feeling of I got. You know if I was able to write forts, hours three hours, that's good! That's good day! So I'm carving out. I've sometimes will carve out aid clear a whole day for writing but I know I never use all that time for writing as I just can't do it our eye and I feel like a failure you're so you're saying I probably should be that much time or or Finally- and I mean this is this- is I mean I think this is, completely normal right. Wait. What you're saying I think we all have that feeling particularly with creative projects. I think there's this impetus to like I can't, anything done unless I have this huge kind of open block of.

I'm right and then and then yea Adena. You read these stories about whatever, like Raymond Carver writing for like fourteen hours a day in earlier, like a brother, do eight hours a day. You know but so it's really about it. You know adjusting those expectations too, like what's realistic, to ask of yourself and then work, with that, and then it really allows you to you, you're just being literally realistic about your expectations, and so you can feel good about what you ve gotten done in a day and It really is true that I am most people. If you you look at one of the examples, are my talk to a guy Alex Pang really great by caught rest and he kind of collected a bunch of Minister data and anecdotes about you know some of the greatest kind of artists and scientists around and how much they we know

work in a day and the number that he came to was really like three or four hours. You know you're. Looking at someone like Charles Darwin, you know like that's how much he was working in a day in terms of like concerted effort Ah was generous the day track anymore. This actually going for very long walks. So you I could use that whole eight hours fur something really It had to writing yeah Maybe not! Writing it sell right, you know but because there is that whole, and I think this is precisely the problem. We just think that we only need time for Mission right, we don't need time for reflection or

to figure out what you're going to write about some? Who knows where that's happening, but somehow right it's happening somewhere. You don't need to carve out time for that. What you need to carve out time for us like sitting there and like writing you know, but of course, there's this whole and that kind of got back to what we are talking about. This idea of the creative process is something kind of inefficient and organic and in a really were even created. I mean you can show up, but kind of inspiration is little that on its own schedule, but it certainly not going to arrive if there's like no space for it to come in and kind of Andrew, your brain raise your running from this engagement that engagement

This meeting right, and so I think there is a whole part of carving at that time. That is, is carving out time. Just for that reflection and some of the less tangible parts of the creative process is your work and advice course really only directed at people who our new and creative workers for anybody doing any work of any sort? It is for anybody doing any work of any sort. I think, generally speaking, it is for people who have some level of autonomy. Over there schedule, because if you are, working within a schedule and that you cannot control when any way may probably couldn't do some of the things that I might recommend doing right, Widget assembly line workers can't do this right. Let's say you know you do you do cousin

service. Ninety five and you have to be on email constantly, and I think you still could take some things away, but you know what I mean: they're certain certain rules that are more rigid than others, but in terms of ensuring- about creativity? I mean, I think, that creativity. It's not about being a designer I prefer an artist. I mean creativity is just about problem solving, you now. I think we all do it. I think engineers do it. I think mothers. Do it. Using a child. I think that you know. Even Answering customer service questions require some level of creativity, so I think that the creativity keys, it's actually the Does my pike ass easily ass people, five questions and one of the questions that I always ask them is: how would you define creativity and ten words? Alas, and my favorite answer was from Kim Chambers who is this amazing marathon summer?

She just that self expression and I think that's my favorite definition. We all have a self to express great if it is merely the process of expressing myself. I think, there's infinite ways in which you could do that, and I think that we all have something. You know creative, that we want to do in our working life. And that's the stuff that really gives it meaning more ten percent happier after this better help offers licensed professional councillors, she lived in a wide array of issues like depression, anxiety and grief, conduct with their profession, counselor and a safe private online environment. It's a truly affordable option and listeners can get ten percent off your first month by going to better help dot com, slash happier fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with the counselor you'll love

ass question? Now that harks back to something you were talking about already, but you didn't use the phrase I had this delicious experience. Listening your podcast, because you coined a phrase. To describe a massive component of mine, internal life, that idea we been able to describe which is productivity. Shame, that's your phrase which I'm gonna to, although going to give you credit for a promise they're about it, a lot because because I there's this ambient noise that I'm sometimes aware of and sometimes not in running, in the background of my psyche, all the time am em. I getting my stuff done, my letting people down my working on my priorities, blah blah blah all the time and that's what it is productivity, shame I didn't have a name for it until you have described it

So can you hold forth on your view on the what productivity shame is and how we can deal with it, yeah, yeah one! It's funny! I actually arrived at that term. Only after you know we ve been talking about this course reset that IRAN and getting feedback from people who have gone through the course and realizing, and that phrase kind of came to me, because so many people had come into the course and words Talking about you know, just as you describe how much they were beating themselves up, how and satisfied. They were feeling how unrealistic their expectations were: and in that kind of lead me to to really thinking about this term. Productivity, shame, and I mean I simply define it as some you almost he almost setting yourself. You know this act. Of setting you know completely unrealistic goals or schedules for yourself, which you know to be unrealistic, as you do it and then

they kind of being yourself up for not being able to meet that. Give for the missing piece. For me, as I often don't know, my limits I can do all this stuff or some you know Superman in that I walk round miserable and make other people misery It once said that is kind of precisely that recalibration is what hopefully happens with the safety of center productivity right is understanding that what you're limits are right. How much attention can you exert in a day like how many hours of kind of peak cognitive performance do you have on how much time an you realistically carve out of Europe may be already busy schedule to do the work that is meaningful to you. So actually thinking about yourself as a human in a body with limited capacity and like true, We recognise that and lets say accepting that

and then you know making Decisions about what you take on from that place, because I am, I think, we're all not all, but many of us are so far removed from that place. Like so sucked into this, responding to other people's request, this kind of speed obsess efficiency had sassed. I can do everything. Super pact, calendar type of working that we, you know, have no sense of our own limits, and so that is how we fall into that cycle right, we're just constantly making I'm really really really unrealistic plans and then getting ourselves up about it. So I think that's kind of how we get into that cycle. Answer answered, yeah. How we get out is to make more realistic yet way things just to be concentrated begin to be no kind of come back.

Into the body and understand that we have limits and recognizes limits and accept them and then plan accordingly. So the question it give come. You have my line as I am exposed to your work. As you know, my first impression is that, while it just feels like such a merciful, oh, like life line, given my very inner serve inner sternness self, directed at sometimes externally, directed about productivity, recognising our limits, maybe Spain decisions about what we can could be doing allowing ourselves some rest, but them wonder like. How do you draw that line? You're a liar. The day I was at home, my family, my wife and child were upstate at my wife's smiles house and I had a placed myself and I felt myself. I was gonna work on my book I was so tired that I watch

They want to tv and then fell the horrible by myself. So like how do I know the difference between taking the rest that I need in the to invoke the name of the book that you are talking about before, and the idea of Charles Darwin Meal taken long, why? How do I draw the line between giving myself a break in a way that will improve my productivity in the long run, as opposed to just procrastinating Yet it is a really good question and I think You know you talk about meditation alot on this shell and I think you know What we're talking about in this case is your creative practice right, you're talking about writing a book. And I think, a creative practices not entirely different from a meditation practice and that it depends bends and it becomes much more subtle as you go along so

for me, the expanse, isn't it in its most useful, probably from it. I've got my personal experience of this point. Is that ok, I back a little bit. So I did. I did an episode of the podcast. That's called who're you without the doing, And I heard is really good. Thank you seal now, one of the things that I am I talk about is this book shambolic the path of the warrior? I quote from that book in that particular episode, and the passage that I quote is about thing about discipline and in that episode in general, I talk about this concept. A sort of tender discipline such it adds another that's that's a phrase you coined right. I think that Algeria RE term, another, those oxymorons right, hurry, slowly, tire discipline dress

I centre a activities. Rob mine, intellectually. Does this deficit credit for everything, but search good stuff. We cannot carry on. We have also so it's looking. It's kind of contemplate This idea of tender discipline which really emerged from reading this particular bucker. That gonna crystallise the idea, and it's like I don't know if I'm gonna say, is almost Chung. I'm trauma jovian from Russia is a very popular tibetan buddhist teacher Elzevir, controversially dragged himself to death and like slept with his followers, and he was a body men of an ancient, and also quite controversial concept in Buddhism of crazy wisdom. So he acted ways there. I were pretty crazy, but he also

as long as you're about to talk about, you know, you're about to observe paraphrase, I think some of the things he said about tenderness, as you put it as it relates to productivity, and so it is also capable of wisdom but he's a conundrum for me, because he did a lot of stuff, that owner of of rights, of way the strain may be the good out of the bad or the even the crazy the concepts he talks about this particular bug? Is it just thinking about this concept of discipline and this idea, that if you, we're waiting for your discipline to become immaculate. It's never going to happen, and this kind of idea that the of your constant kind of looking back at yourself in monitoring yourself, like my disciplined enough, I am a perfect enough right and that, at a certain point you kind of have to let go and just trust, and that's where the real discipline comes from sir,

well, I will use my study for two things came to my one is, I believe, who is my friend or in so fervid, but on this package before as a popular meditation teacher one, I was popular teachers and on the terrace and happy tell me a me a story about being on a meditation retreat worries to walking meditation, and he start- weeping when he realized that his own life and his whole meditation practice he had spent evaluating how he had done on the last step, I. That really resonant many. That came up mind as you were talking. The second thing is: you're just having a letting go and trusting in some way and I'm thinking all right sounds good. But how do you do that? Because the only way I know to work is to make liberal use of my internal cattle prod Yes- and I definitely relate to that sentiment as well, but I was going to say right so so I was just kind of side side. Digression to this

of tender discipline in this idea of that, in terms actually becoming more discipline. I think there is this piece of like trusting yourself right, so we come back to what we're talking about about your creative practice. And how you know the difference between when you're procrastinating. And when he may be needed. Just take a break and when you should work what may my own experience has been with my writing practice. Is that as I kind of sink more into some of these concepts of hard centre productivity and of thinking about aligning my body and in a trusting, I have a limited amount of attention, but kind of aligning with Ed and using it, as I have gone deeper into that place It's become easier for me to make that distinction, so it's been

come easier for me to essentially, I know when I should call both myself and one I actually need to take a break right because of what what you're trying to figure out in those moments, as you know am I just you know is this just resistance and I should push through right using my internal cattle broad, make myself sit down and right, or Oh, is this literally not a moment at which, because I need rest or maybe I just need to go- for a walk and find some I'm just not really inspired today, because that that is a certain fact or sometimes You know how do you make that distinction, and for me the more that I've kind of just you, and to make them adaptation from Paris and again just kind of sit in my practice, which is my creative practice right kind of show up and and be

more trusting and gentle with myself the easier it become to make that distinction about when I should kind of competition or not, but I ll give you one just like it, tat great great who it is Do you want something more tangible, which is? I think that I think it's useful to think about whatever you know, the creative project is having a certain energy to it right, and so, when you put the project down and don't look at it for a day or two or weeks, you kind of left, the energy racer turned it off and you don't really know what the energy field like anymore and soon some. So it's you're not motivated right. You don't have that momentum. You don't have that rhythm of having been working on the project, and so once you ve kind of broken rhythm and left the energy of that project. I think you'd have sometimes is difficult to know like I am islands like yours,

become disconnected from it. So I think when you have those moments too, it's good to just sit down for fifteen minutes and you know kind of feel the energy and, like you know, maybe start to write a little bit or try to start to write in a lot of times, just by getting back in there, you the flocks but sometimes you know you got back and then you're like now, like I'm, not feeling it today, so I think also acknowledging the role that man, aunt em plays and creative projects, which is huge, is huge re. That kind of building an object in motion wants to stay in motion and object. Rest wants to stay at rest, but rather than beating yourself up about it. If you really don't now, just kind of like die back into the energy for fifteen or twenty minutes, if it picks up and if it you know, doesn't pick up and you just really feel exhausted, we really feel and inspire them in to say today not that that's great

I like that, is very useful. What about deadlines? So I'm a journalist and I've for twenty five years have worked and before that in college we had deadlines and there was a certain there was and is for me a certain adrenaline associated with like this is airing tonight or you know, nine eleven just happen. You're gonna be on me here tonight. You gonna finish: writing your script, and so I think, by the autumn, or in the book process, and I'm thinking about. Ok, I wanna get him. I want to have saner more self, compassionate workflow but will I be able to you know, do I need deadlines and do I need that? Add rental in order to get anything done, and how do I balance between the two? Do I create artificial deadlines, but then, if I do, that am I going to set them realistically and is there In the midst of all this that I can is there any hope that I could. Enjoy the work while I'm doing

I just said a lot it broke up. You can pick a pardon. Giving in there that you think it's cogent, what you make me think of, I didn't interview with them. Oliver Bergman Oh, yes, you have an ownership, yeah, very funny. Assertive anti self help solve our right artists and he's right the book about productivity right now, a yeah yeah, yes and Anyway. He's a very thoughtful- and I am also very funny guy and he He introduced me to this idea of half stutters law. I think it's com, which is basically the idea that everything so specifically pertains to creative projects or any time you're doing something new for the first time and basically says that More or less, if we totally distorted on everything, takes longer than you think it well Enzo and Even if you acknowledge that everything

Ex longer than you think it well and he Projector schedule based on that assertion. It'll still take longer than you think I well I mean it's. I think it's a little bit of a joke like principle by in any case rate. This idea that particularly Billy with any project the any kind of creativity is really kind of impossible to know how long it will take right. So what do you do? about that lines. In that scenario, and how does that relate to motivation? And I can speak to one of the things that I talked about in the reset course, which is you know. We talked about goals earlier I like to set goals and small windows, so maybe three month, windows or you could even do half of that sticks. And I like to do that specifically because you never know how long something is going to take, and so, if you give yourself sort of a smaller range goal, so you know you're right but book like the goal is not like finished manuscript. You know the goal is

thing that you think you could realistically accomplish, and maybe six week, Sir, my information chapter to write, you break it down, and so there a publisher need you to have a Finnish managed directly by some point right so that she can I am sure, are you ok, let's say you have ina, usually have nine months or a year to write the book typically say a celestial, a goal for six weeks or something, but that the point being sending a small ball. So then you can assess like how long did that take you know, and then you can make another sixty gall and adjust to something more real stick so the goal isn't something giant and you work for nine months. Something to realise like? Oh, my god, my projections were completely off. You know you said something smaller, so you kind of track your progress stay motivated over this small portion of time. It also makes it easier to tracker progress and stay motivated, because the goal is in sight

really far away, but it also gives you that moment to check in and then recalibrate whatever the next kind of baby step goal, you said is because you're probably gonna be really off in terms of your projections about how much you can accomplish. Why do we work? This is terrible Father used to call the curse of the middle class as set out in a play. The lottery today in never work again. Worst, do fine, tat you can actually, while engaging in creative work, which again you very helpfully described, not as just necessarily making paper shea would or doing, arts and crafts. It's really like anything that involves problem solving. Do you find it? You can actually enjoy it because I have a heart. Time, imagining enjoying writing a book yeah I mean that is that's probably one of the core sort of principles of this idea of heart centre productivity. We didn't get to is this idea of enjoying the process which

you know, and I do all of these things I do this by gas. I make the score export these questions because are challenges that I myself have. I am like an extreme we extremely outcome Orient said person, you know. So I'm always thinking I'm always thinking about what snack some always thinking about the end goal, but. You know, in the grand scheme of things right I mean. How could you see many times I've around I have that whatever I thought would be the thing that would somehow make me feel great, and he knows I'm sure you know it never. Does I published this, I publish this. I make this conference or I do this thing you now in every time you arrive at that thing. It's always can like well like

I thought a big they had a word for this call. It suffering you that that we're gonna get that next thing, that next meal that next bathroom break that eggs, vacation and finally will be happy it just doesn't work insatiable. Eighty, always research itself, yeah one. You know I think here is so, but here's the twist here's the tourist that can make you want to get into the process. So I told you at the outset of the course we talk about goal setting we talk about how you think about your goal. And one of the things that makes people really not achieve their goals is spending a lot of time. Thinking about the outcome of the gall and talking to other people about the outcome of the gall, because what happens if it makes you feel like you, ve already achieved the ball right, a kind of creates a sort of like mine track where you just

You, like you, ve, already achieved it because you spent so much time. Thinking about it and you know it. So when you look at research around that people who essentially spend you know more time focused on the process rather than on the outcome means they are actually more likely to. Achieve the goal in the end and, of course, you're, saying you're, saying if I spend a lot of time talking about the outcome as if it already done I'll, be happier or less happy. Well, the creature, motivation, okay, so that may sound I thought I was saying the opposite kind of drains the motivation havoc, as I feel like I'm never going to finish this book, and so talking about it isn't as something that might actually exist in the world. Is absolutely deflating. None, but but talking about finishing chapter I'm working on or transcribing.

An interview I did but that's it. I can imagine and here's another thing in terms of enjoying the process that I think is has been really I'm a big and for me, is shifting to working anymore analogue way I find that whenever I do something an analog, I always enjoy it significantly more. Then, when I do indeed shall so, for instance, the village like not writing, talking about transcribing talking about in interviews he's too at all of the energy, is for my pie, casino in a word document on my computer, Now I print them out, and you know I go. I get up from a gas gonna go said, oh my couch by the window. And I added at there and then I have whatever then come back, and I make my changes at my computer and I find that Am I enjoy the process significantly more? doing it. On paper, I'm not hunched over my desk and

You know that apply similar leads. You there's a whole section, of course learn talks about working, an analog and creativity, but same thing like if I'm giving a talk- and I have to make a keynote for that talk. What I'll do is get out I'll, get like a big sketch, pal and I'll go in a sit chairs agenda. My down on sofa and I'm really map out like okay. What am I really trying to say whether the bones of this talk- and I never go to my desk- or go to the computer until I'm like really really really clear on what I want to say and ready to kind of execute, and that point then I'll go to the digital space or go to the computer, because when you can start out in that digital space there's just too much you can get really into polishing and tweaking right click. Ok, what should the color B, which the font size be when animated give em they're gonna, get to like make this part of the tough funny right? But ass you go through need all these things.

Things. We get stacked about these things, but you Starvin, really. No, no, you wanna say right because there's just so many distractions available in the digital space. And I also think the digital is really about like executing polishing and being precise. And when you're in the early stages of grief, project you're trying to figure out what you want to say, you don't really want to be precise when we messy and that's really easy to do on a scratch pad RON white. Bird or in an analog space and away that's gonna difficult to do in Digital. So I think that's a huge shift in terms of enjoying the process. More is moving things out of digital space into the analogue space when you can just, and also allow yourself to be away from your desk in a different space in a kind of using your hands on me and of doing things and sort of a more natural. Where is interesting, I sort of naturally do this. I

the little guilty in terms of my contribution to the environment, are constantly printing things out and working on the paper and then going back to the computer and doing the fixes in the polish? Is there and then printing it out again, and then I find that step away from computer does make me happy. I wasn't doing it for any. I just drove intuitively knew this. Nobody ever told me to do it, but I still hate every part of writing a hate it hate it, and yet I am compelled to do it. I love coming up with ideas and I really feel powerfully. I feel very strongly that at least with this book that out it would, I want to write it but a age I hate the doing of the thing and reminded me so dizzy. Cliche about books. Is nobody likes writing a book. Everybody likes having written a book, so maybe it there? There's no way around this, but I keep finding myself thinking. Maybe I can use these little hacks, which you you're proposing here. I met. Some of them are not just little hacks their big structural rethinks, philosophical up approaches,

different, there are really important on not devaluing them, but I am, I think, they're. It may just be the case for me that the work is always going to feel a little crappy because it's hard yeah? Absolutely I? I can't- for her name. But there's this is a poor distant another. But a writer that I really like- and she says you know like researchers have ended in Writing- is how you down sounds Vienna sounds about write to me. Let's Definitely it's always a struggle and in many ways an early. Why tonight choose that I've I see to continually feel compelled to do this thing and yet but the enemy. I think, if you one thing that I am I recommend, if you do print everything out, is Savior copies. Let them stack up on your desk, the up like a little testament, of progress to all of their revisions and differently,

You know how far you have progressed through the writing of the book. That's kind of satisfying to deal that's what I did with my last book. I led, all of these at its just a crew and a huge stack on my desk. So you know when I would get too difficult point can be really frustrated in kind of like a I gonna go, through this I'm gonna figure out this chapter. I can look back about me like ok, Molly. You know you went through this before three minute through the through the other side and figured out again. Michael everytime, I have a few more questions. If that's ok, say more about tendered discipline. Are you able to. Are you really able to motivate yourself in a way that is tender as opposed to self critical, Well, I mean it's not it's an ongoing challenge. I am significantly better at it than I used today. I will say I think that you know.

Here's the thing? Let me give you an example of this is theirs really amazing, but called scarcity if you're familiar enough by elder chauffeur, and I think I send all molina- then I might be mispronouncing his name but it looks adds to Texas our city on scarcely money and scarcity of time. I imagine must have your listeners. Your problem were afflicted with scarcely of time. And means that they really they really looked at from an analytical from a research perspective? What happens when you work in us over scheduled Overbusy over stimulated way that most of us are working in and what they found was that it creates a kind of tunnels are people we're really only able to think about the next thing right. The next meeting you have to get to the next time I have to respond to you.

And with a tunnel vision does, is it makes you less controlled and makes it less insightful and makes it less forward thinking. And so, if you think about those qualities, less controlled lesson, cyclist forward, thinking, you think about what you need to complete any type of project or anything with meaning those are the things that you mean right and so what they talk about, as the solution is, you know working in this Super jam pact time constrained in a kind of way right, creating these at her slack. Actually, I used the term white space so great and kind of white space inner schedule and I use the term white space because thinking about like design rights too

if you know any designers and then looking at a graphic design, they talk about white space, red and white space. Is you know right what what kind of helps you the blank space, but it's not negative space in the design of the space that allows you to kind of understand what you should be focusing on your your attention on right. What's in the positive space, and it creates a kind of I'm an uncluttered environment, ripe and essentially whites basis. What sort of brings harmony to the overall design? But if you take that concept, but wait says you look at the way like. Let's have a look at your calendar year, Gaelic calendar right, most of us have like zero white space and our colleague like we're looking at our calendar as a design. It would be like a disgusting cluttered, awful busy design right

and so I think, about this concept of white space. As you know, that's the thing that gives harmony and balance to your day this. What most of us are missing. I am going to answer your question in the long run I don't trust myself, but I trust, but don't you think about You know how our working this really jam pacts way, I don't know like it's like a few create a visual body. Embodiment of self criticism is kind of look like this jam pact schedule, I like how could you be gentle with yourself in that scenario right, there's, just there's no room, there's no time right! There's no time to deceive reflecting kind of you like! Oh hey, wait now, you're being too harsh, like would think about this differently. On top of that right, so. I think my answer to your question is you were able to kind of pull back from.

This over scheduled overwhelmed way, working and create even little pockets of kind of white space for to go for a walk or to just contemplate your creative project, or to do nothing at all or to meditate that space itself creates the opportunity,

this kind of tenderness right and, if you think about, and even if you just think about look, you know, like I'm very liberal representation of space right like if you were in a small closet. You know and like how you kind of feel about like what can a mindset that would create and what kind of level of comparability that would create, and what kind of even maybe like voice that would create if you're in this tiny, tiny constraint, space verses. If you're insane like a cathedral right, you have more white space. Yet more space around here right, there's this opportunity for opening and for tenderness and for compassion that feels super different, and so I think, when you think about your schedule, you may want to start open up those those pockets of space, and that creates a little bit of space where you can be more generous.

With yourself, you can be more tender with yourself and ultimate question. You don't have meditation practice, although, as I understand it, there are some meditations involved and reset course. I quite understand that, maybe to explain it, but but it's Things to me like, oh, when I kept asking you how to do these various things you know your various precepts. How can we operational eyes them? One of the things like half expect you to save- and I know you don't meditate was watching. Meditation could be really useful in these because a boost yourself awareness second boost your ability to be self them, passionate, etc, etc. Do agree with you re a meditation could be a useful component to what you're describing and if so, why aren't you doing it, but I wasn't meant to induce shame. I actually think you're doing fine without it, but at this period

no, it is absolute. I mean, of course, meditation can be incredibly useful for all of these things and, as I just sat right, we're thinking about opening up space time and space and as a way of being more gentle with yourself and of course, I think, that's precisely what meditation Does I work for me? maybe a more general- and I used to be my heart anyway- I Do I do manage aid? I just I dont have, I would say like to me. I dont, a formal, meditation practice, to me. When I say that what I mean is a kind of doing it with some regularity and having really kind of thought about it, but I do have a regular practice. I practice Ricky Wedge.

Then don't for little over years and not very long, but to me that in even practice, Ricky on yourself, why don't even really know what it is. I have one friend is a Reiki master and she described it to me, but it's like a massage kind of it's a form of energy healing, and it has to do with the seven sakharov of body and the only ever is scientific evidence, I think, is you know spotty, perhaps but the idea of railway is that you as the radioactive nor are sort of a vessel form this universal healing energy, not that you yourself are doing something which, of course, can sound very out there. I find it's much better to experience Ricky, so we can do a regular

Sometimes, I feel like that is much more likely to convert. Someone then describing at which I find even you know what I've had Ricky described to me, intellectually and like I don't know that really a thing, but in any case what it feels like me practicing again, someone is very similar to, I think, a loving kindness, meditation. You know, we don't have very many opportunities in our culture to touch them. I'm in a gentle and loving and also none actual way, and when you do ready with someone you really kind of tap into their energy, really feel their energy, which means you also may be really feel their hopes or their sadness of their grief or whatever those things either inside of them. Which, of course, I think it's fires, a lot of compassion, so

to me that's been an and then you can also practice it on your self June's. How feeling said to me that actually feels a bit like meditation and that's kind of then my expiration over the past year, but I The reason the sewing and as I just told you have actually been doing a little bit literally just one on a mindful self compassion retreat, I'm in which there is quite a bit of meditation. That. Wasn't a meditation retreat so much just moving into meditation a little bit more, and I think For me, the reason I'm moving into a more is purely for, like spiritual reasons, and I think I didn't approach it before, because I wasn't maybe in that place

But I think a lot of people initially come to meditation because you know they want to create what we're talking talking about more space, more space, little more time, a little less anxiety, little less stress, and I all with all of those things through of these other, all the stuff tat we ve been talking about. So I think I didn't need to come to meditation for those those reasons- and I think I probably m kind of coming to it now, probably from or spiritual reasons, far question you to plug everything. You ve talked about the core. She mentioned the you wrote a book may be written others. Where can we find you and social media website? Everything give us everything yeah. Well, my personal website ideas, cagey Ellie I dot com, Joslyn, Piglike outcome and then

there's the pie gas hurry slowly, which we talked about. We talked about the productivity, shame at the said, the who're you without the Duma English about fifty episodes. Now, that's it hurry slowly, dot, co! Recently, dots! now and then there's the related course, which is research, which I call a cosmic tuneup fear worked out: which has at reset hyphen coursed. I come we want social media. Are you avoid that I am only on twitter at J Katy? I it's been really helpful? Adds a meteor pack has his great and I'm gonna look into how this have an you wrote a book called managing your day to day right, yeah that was what ninety nine ninety areas manage about it? I and there's a couple other books, miseries smile, but you can find Amazon. I know that our mutual friend seventy Selassie, who is meditation teacher and also a coach, gives that book to her clients, though that in itself, is a massive endorsement from in my little world at every meeting,

I was, I was very excited about them. Thank you. So much really appreciated. Thank you so much for me. This is so much man. Ok, thanks again to just when keg lie really enjoyed that conversation and have been integral her recommendations into into my work to the best of my ability, since we recorded that if you enjoy this episode or if you where the issue is again, I just like if share it either directly with a friend, a group of friends are on social media that I think it's a great way to help us grow. The show, as I said before, every podcast hope host makes. These request is a reason we do it because actually really helps to grow the show, let's do Bushmen seasonable one day at its job, I'm calling from LA powers in delude not really, but I'm calling from the loot here, a blot out, I'm having a hard time finding the motivation to get started again, and I think that

the problem with getting going at a lot to do where self worth, where they get? Where these issues and again I just like any ideas you might have about getting a good meditation practice in overcoming the initial inertia. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, I love them you're. If you're joke about the flophouse in Duluth, when I wrote that in my first book I kept that was like tat of a repeated, there was a refrain I kept coming back. You I've. I've heard from a lot of people like? Why do you hate Duluth? So much in that the Good NEWS is there are so many Duluth there? several around the country- I don't know which one you're calling from, but I'm sure there's not a flophouse there, but I appreciate the call and thinking about your question, because yeah. I wish I had more specificity on what you mean by self worthiness or self worth. And how exactly that is hindering you, but I am a couple thought

an end re Housman are ACE head of coaching coaching on the ten percent Hap happier app she's she's in charge of all the coaches we have who interact with the EU. There's she's waiting as well. So the way from me was that may be a good practice for you to start would be here. I go again with this word. It is term self compassion. Will we have guided self compassion practices up on the temperature in happier app you can play they also, if you dont, want to describe you wanted to search for them on Google. I'm sure you could find a few that, It might be a good way to start if, if self worthy near, if this inner, if you. At this inner dialogue around you know criticising yourself. Maybe that's a good place to start. The other thing is, if you who are running this story line in your head of you know, I know Adaptation is good for me, but I'm not worth it are not worth investing in that way. If consciously or subconscious Hey, that's going on with you one

one way to maybe get over the hump would be to commit to doing it. A little bit every day for forty six weeks just drop, the story for a second and say you know what I'm just gonna commit for forty six weeks and see what happens the reason I say that is because I think the way this practice really gets its hooks in you is when you see the benefits that when you move from extrinsic motivation. In other words, I listen to this guys podcast, I feel guilty than doing the thing or the other votes. Scientific communities telling me I should meditating nor my wife or whatever, and that that other people too, when you doing a thing to do a thing you can move from that extrinsic motivation to intrinsic motivation. In other words, you do it because you want to do it that start. It happened when you start to see the benefits. In my experience, what are the benefits and when we talk about it before but reduced distraction, and even more valuable, the mindfulness, the abyss

Would he not to be so yanked around by all the various storylines you ve been running since you were a kid one of which may be this whole thing around self worth, or maybe you notice after six weeks of meditate of like five minutes a day of meditation or five minutes, most days, which might give you just might be easy and easier to do this five minutes of most day daily, ish, meditation, five weeks fibres fibre, sorry, five minutes of afore six weeks of daily Ash meditation, you may notice, oh yeah anger, hit you in the middle of a conversation with somebody but you're. You see it and you It passed before you say something incredibly stupid a moment like that. Were you clearly see the benefits can push you into the range of intrinsic motivation, which really can get the train on this. What I just said, I think, fortunately, for me gibes with what Ray Housman. The aforementioned re husband had to say that she struggled for free

where to get a regular practice practice going in the thing that really got it down, firm and locked in fur was seeing the benefits that she was more an unkind to herself and others, and that made a big. Efforts and she too says try fight eight minutes, day and see what you notice yeah. So I threw a at you. Hopefully, some of it will stick and stay away from those flophouse us. Thank you, one more here again I dare not only am I think, when you upon castle she's doing our meditate midday. They had got you coming

but if I did an arrow meditation, I wouldn't have the time to work out an. I would also be getting less sweep and I suffer from some held this year, so it feeds into my day and a half hours a day to do all of them. In my head and Michael which one it is the most important for my physical mental, emotional. Well being is it you know getting Leslie and doing an hour of meditation or is sleep more important or is making sure I can get some physical activity and important when we are able to do all of those. I heard.

For me to know where I should be putting my attention residents scattering trying to do everything. You know five minutes meditation instead yeah though when he help, but that would be great. Thank you. It's a great caution is important. Question nobody's asked him before. So I'm glad you did the obvious tell you when I do This may be controversial with in some circles. I don't know, but for me I really prioritize sleep and physical exercise over meditation that I mean I don't meditate, but my number one priority is sleep. I specially feel this way after having sat down for quite a while recently with Doktor Matthew, Walker was an eminent sleep expert at the university universe. California, in Berkeley were an upward was that in the coming months, sleep seems to me, like the apex predator of habits, like the it's hard to do anything else, if you're tired

and this is just an enormous amount of research- shows that the whole system- all systems break down. You know under sleep deprivation No, I don't. I'm gonna stay away from being too prescriptive and you can say what I do which is it. I go for sleep first and foremost, second physical activity. I've had depressions for I've struggle with it so much over the course of my life. It is the best answer. At present. As far as I know, so I really try to be aunt em. You know vaguely narcissistic and have to look at my stupid face on television highly motivated to exercise to. I really make sure I do that six days a week. I do try to clear out quite a bit of time for meditation, but if in your schedule, your finding that, after having got enough sleep and doing a little bit of exercise that you don't have an hour to meditate or something like that. I don't see that as a problem, so do what you can obviously, I'm kind of of the two to appoint am of the view that the more the better? But if

Five minutes is honestly what you can sanely fit into your day. Then I see nothing to feel badly about there But you know you may want to see if there are others in the day, were you know, you're, just mindlessly, checking Facebook that that that could be a time where you meditate or like right before bed. I actually really have gotten into doing quite a bit right before bet fact last night I'm. Recording this honest. I am recording the intro and outreach to this episode on a Saturday morning. Last night I having trouble going to bed and I meditated for quite a while got into bed, was tossing inter and per Matthew Walkers advice instead of tossing. Turning to long which can turn the bed into a kind of you know, a crucible. I got back out of Ed put my sweater. On went to the corner of the room and meditated again and that I, in till I get super sleepy and then went back to bed and I fell asleep. So that's a place where you could probably fit in quite a bit of meditation there,

the areas where you could sneak in it. Each time at the office. Maybe areas were in your commute if you're and who were attacked here a subway or a train, or if you drive right before you get out of the car to go into the house or right before, get out of the car to go into the office lots of little places. I would look for so that this is an area where I'm being prescriptive. Trying to slotted in throughout the day in strategic ways. I think that is a really good idea. Best of luck with your health issues, and Really appreciate the call Natalie. Thank you. Speaking of thank yous. Let me just thank you. Nobody help me do the show, and there are a lot of People- Samuel, Johnson, Grace Livingston liked Bosky. Who is one one who's in the engineering both running running boards. Why record this learn hard Zog and the chief, the boss, Ryan Kessler, we'll be back next week.

With part to the self impassioned series. I can't believe I'm saying of compassion and then part three the week after that and one other thing to look out for and just couple days, we're gonna drop, a special self command, the meditation who share in Salzburg, Z next Wednesday there's not a person in Amerika who hasn't been impact it in some way by the corona. I was pandemic, but it every community there are pockets of people who were sitting up. Every day this is my my day last day of the cylinder stretch of proteins for one of our time in these or America's essential workers, the people who are keeping moving. I turn into a home school mom and now in a new plants from Ebay, see news you going

from damage? I actually went back to my office inside crying because it is not fair hearing here and making sure that our community have sound faintly Lorraine. This is essentially inside the from the urgency by the police cruiser to the czech outline. You hear what this pandemic sounds like the people putting themselves no one's way, there's always a risk that I could breathe is home to my kids. Are my husband or my parents? Listen to the essentials inside the curve on Apple podcast revision, podcast him.