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learn more, I discovered dot com, slash credit card limitations, apply mason has a car for everyone. It means every driver who, once more whatever your more, is more fun, more freedom, more zip more head turning style, more turbo charged excitement from sports as an sedan to ease pick ups and cross over at these on more is all we do no there's no compromising your next adventure for endless through else and the more you ve been looking for check out. Nissan's, exciting line up, learn more at me, son, usa, dot com Welcome to textile production from I heart, radio, hey there and welcome to tax up. I'm your host Jonathan Strickland, I'm an executive producer with iheart radio and how

attack aria now before I get started on today's episode, which is a part one the two partner I wanted to. Let you know that I'm going to be at this year's. I hurt radio music festival house of music, I'll be recording alive in the eye heart I'd casts studio, that's powered by bows, so come by on friday. This friday at six p m to the free house of music outside t mobile arena I'll see you there and you'll be able to hear the episode I record at the house, of music at the I heart, podcast studio, powered by bows on monday at episode, should come out monday and will be about something really hurt net anyway the house music in case you curious, is this big interactive exhibit where you can imagine its immersive mixed reality of these

experience is linked to the various artists who are performing at this year's festival, and there is a lot a wide spectrum of eggs, periods is like something for every body There's a room, that's dedicated to public enemy, there's another dedicated to fall out boy. There's one dedicated to kelly clarkson. Like I said it's a pretty wide range of experiences and their mood besides, that those are just three of the ones that will be part of this house of music experience now as part of We have like us at this, both powered podcast studio and I and what you're thinking. Yes, this all thing is way cooler than I am, but they still asked me to come so I'm gonna go there to see some of you all their. I now, let's get to the ep, it's so since I am gonna be travelling out to las vegas this week and it's going to really disrupt my normal, recording schedule. I decided

to get a jump on things, and I wrote out a two part episode for ya. part one is today. Part too will be tomorrow, then, on friday, I'll be recording live in vegas and then next week should be. I can. kind of normal, I'm actually still gonna be in vegas were a separate thing. Mobile world congress, but we'll see how normal I can make it I'm bringing Recording equipment with me I'll just be recording, probably in my hotel room but someplace its relatively quiet is my hope. Ok, now I have done a few episodes about patents on the show. Today, I thought I would talk about the history of the patent office here. the united states and all, we'll talk about how one massive fire prompted changes meant a second technically more costly, fire was Similarly, far less destructive

but that's doubly getting ahead of myself, because I want you and be touching the fires at all costs. Fires huh but I will be talking about them until tomorrow. However, first before we and any history stuff, let's, go over why patents exist in the first place, so the purpose of a patent, is to grant limited, but exclusive rights to an inventor of their inventions and when I say inventor I don't always mean inventor, I mean patent holder because the entity that holds a patent, might not have actually responsible for the invention, but through war ever arrangement between inventor and entity? There is. It means that the did he holds that patent and they are they this limited, but exclusive set of rights, so concept here is that the inventor comes up with either a significant improvement over an existing thing, or they

up with something that is totally new altogether. The inventor than details were this invention does and how it works in a document in a set of specifications ideally so that a person who was reading it would have a reasonable idea of how it functions and potentially but even follow steps to create a version their own in the future. So the patent means that the patent holder can choose what to do without invention and no one else has the that right for as long as the patent is valid patents. Do eventually expires. That's why I say: there's a limited exclusive rights granted to the patent holder, because eventually they do expire The patent holder can choose to make their own invention themselves, so they could start producing whatever it was they invented, and they could also pursue legal action against anyone who copies them. They could argue for patent infringed

So if someone were to try and make their own version- and it appeared he based off the same functions operations that were covered by the patent the patent, where could say- I hold the exclusive patent for this- I didn't give you permission to use this invention. You owe me money and us that the argument is a sound one in the court finds that yes, the the a b or whatever was in fact based upon the exact same principles the patented invention. There the court is more likely to to side with the plaintiff. In that case, so the inventor or patent holder, could also licence their invention to other entities like a maniac company. So, in this case, the company, or whatever pays a licence fee to the patent holder and then that company starts to make the thing and sells it themselves, and the patent holder just sit back and collects licensing fees and does have to actually poor they

capital into making the, thing themselves: if The patent holder is a real jerk. They can a patent on something and then just sit on it and just wait to see if anyone ever makes anything that could be said. to infringe upon their patents, then the patent holder could sue or threatened to sue that other person or entity look for like a really big settlement or court decision of this kind, patent holder is what we call a patent troll patent trolls, don't make anything, they typically dont licence their patents either, so they just sit on them. They patent something and they wait and the like pounce if they see any one. That makes, something that they could argue was predicated upon. their patents. It's pretty off and obviously it's a way of behaving. That's antithetical to the purpose of a patent,

patents weren't made so that you could set a trap and wait and then pounds on someone when they appear to us to trip the trap they were made to encourage innovation and invention now, because, patents are available for public review. You can go and look at all, he's patents that are filed to this day, you can see Various databases for all patents that have been filed. It that still exist will talk more about that in tomorrow's up but this also means that the inventor or patent holder can't if they're invention to themselves forever, ideally someone with the materials and skill would be able to take those specifications that were laid out in it. And along with, whatever sketches, might be included build their own version of that invention. They can't do without the inventors permission until the patent expires, but at that point it enters public domain and its fair game. So the thinking behind this is

really useful inventions shouldn't be walked away from the public in perpetuity. They should be available. For people to make use of Beyond a sort, span of years. So patent is meant to grant a reasonable amount of time to the patent holder in order for them to make money. the off of their invention. Chances are by. time. The patent expires, announcements will mean that the original invention isn't necessarily relevant anymore anyway, but the patent going into the public domain. People are free to build upon that design and to improve upon it and to evolve it. So a path It is a balance between providing for the benefit of the inventor or patent holder and ensuring the public good. In the long term. Not there criteria that an invention has to meet in order to be patentable for one thing: it needs to have a useful purpose, though that could be a fairly subjective criterion,

It is to be new if they're, all the versions of this invention out there in the world. Well, then, it's not eligible for a patent. We ve seen this recently with lots of things where people have argued: hey There were already versions of that technology that existed prior to your a patent application, so you be able to receive a patent for that, because it's not do something else already exists, that does the thing you're doing is also. Must be non obvious to that needs three inventive. It needs to be something that not just any body would say. Oh This is bad design. Let's just change this one thing, and now it works better. So you it can't be an obvious improvement as to be something that The air was special at the each person could have invented it than a dozen qualify for a patent It also has to cover patentable subject matter, and this gets a lot.

Or a complicated, so, for example, you couldn't patent, something that occurs in nature. Like a flower assume of course, that the flower or he exists in nature and that make sense now Our is not of human design. It's not a flower, that's of human origin, but if you were a to create a new kind of flour and it reproduces asexually, and it's not found nature. That is something that is patentable, you can also patent process. In fact, you can patent really kind of action process you if they have like a concrete outcome. So he came up with a new way to conduct business. You could conceive- the file and receive a patent for that, and you can pay formula for stuff like drugs or other chemicals. Those kind of things can be patented, but Mathematical formula cannot be patented, neither can scientific principles. Those cannot be patented

that mathematics bit ended up being a real hang up when people started writing software because they wanted to patent their software. But. there were long debates over whether a programme would be patented because when you really get down to brass tacks, programmes or just a set of mathematical operations and met Article operations and formulas are not patentable. second the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventeen, the patent a trademark office was reluctant to issue a patent for any invention that included calculations made by a computer. Supreme court in the united states backed up the patent office in a couple of major decisions. During those decades started to change a little bit in the nineteen eighties. However, the supreme court ruled that one process that did include software was, in fact, patentable but this was a process that had a lot of different elements in it

If a curious, it was really about heating rubber to the proper temperature in order to cure the rubber em Software was one part of it, but not the only part so This wasn't exactly a clear cut case, saying yes, softwares patentable, it was more like the software was part of a larger process, and the overall process was patentable today. obtaining a patent on software is still a little dodgy and it can really gum up the court systems in the. U s, but that's a matter for another episode. So as to well some other stuff that you cannot patent. Are you can't patent surgical procedures. You can't patent a dance, or an exercise, though you could an exercise, equipment or dance equipment at you can't pay an invention that violates the laws of physics. So that means like perpetual motion machines are not eligible for patents, even though that hasn't always stopped inventors from trying do bandit and, as hasn't start the patent office from making a whoops,

at least in the short term? Well, we're gonna talk more about the actual history of patents in just a mom but first, let's take a quick break to thank our sponsors hey it is, is tanya rad from the scrubbing in with bacteria and tanya rad podcast, oh, no real! When you get it it'll, say: ebay, authenticity, guarantee and you'll feel it. Maybe it's a head turning handbag, a watch that says it all jewellery that makes you look like the jam, sneakers and street where so fresh every step feels fly when it comes The style and luxury Ebay gets it there. Making sure the things you love are checked by experts, not just any experts specialised experts, real people who love this stuff with real hands on authentication experience, so when you see that shiny blue check, mark that says authenticity guarantee shop with confidence, every inch stitches

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if you need a little help. Finding your style footing pair up with a personal stylist they'll help. You put your look together either in store or from the comfort of your home. Best of all its time, totally free, so head on over two macy's dot com, slash personal stylus debugger appointment today meets zone has a car for everyone, but me as every driver who, once more, whatever you're more, is more freedom more turning style, more turbo, charged excitement. Nissan has it. More fun behind the wheel of the nissan z, the sports car built to deliver the most thrilling. Dr ever get more action. from the nissan roque that can take on any terrain with a twist of a dial, if more Adventure is what you're, after find it in the nissan pathfinder the vehicle, with the muscle to handle the journey, look in for more zip. The agile and stylish nissan centre is for you

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join. The eldest around in the morning show for a special gathering at I heartland in state farm park. It's a holiday celebration with bun talk about the best and worst of holiday gifts, holiday songs and deserves the good and bad of the holidays like real or vague trees, ignored and the statute of limitations on holiday, illumination, plus a very special elvis ran in the morning. So poem twas the night after christmas. What is sure to become an instant classic and, of course, all the usual hilarity you'd expect from this mary band of humans. Don't miss this special event starting Monday December eighteen, that seven p m eastern had state farm park in ireland on roadblocks available for a limited time afterwards cigarettes and check out all the exciting things date arm. Ass, offer suit up in your virtual red polo and got ease and had to this date. Farm neighbourhood find their new holidays governor, had bread chance to win a limited edition, hover boardgame perfect for writing in the snow. All across I heartland visit, I hire radio dotcom flash. I art land to start playing today and don't forget to tune in for the event starting December eighteenth.

Ok, we're back so the history of patents in the united states involves one of the founding fathers of the country, one of our early presidents, in fact thomas jefferson, so, old tommy boy spent a great deal of time in europe securing support as the colonies, that become. The united states were attempting to establish a new nation, and one of the many things he picked up well over in europe was this concept of patents and he felt that deny states would need its own way to protect ideas and inventions and innovation and fermentation. So please, This is something we need to establish in our new country, so seventeen, ninety as secretary of state, thomas jefferson supported a bill that would establish the that, secretary of state, the secretary of war and the attorney general would serve as a tribunals and they would.

the power to grant or deny patents. Even the earliest version of this law. The government required that inventions pass a standard of being quote sufficiently useful and important input if you're envy didn't measure up to that standard. You are not gonna get a patent for it. fact, the tribunal with so strict that for the first year, the patent law was even a thing in the united states. They grant the only three patents- very first one was for a process of making potash which is used in fertilizer. Washington gave that pan. his John hancock, which just one it because I'm lame- and I think I'm funny at this- There was no numbering system for patents, so I'll georgie boy sign the first patent into the. the. U S, that's not that potash patent was patent number one, because we didn't start numbering patents for like for more decades,

and I imagine the filing system back in those days was a nightmare- In fact, I know it was because some of the leaders of the patent office went anchors trying to fix it value. Original term of protection for a pat was fourteen years and after four near the pact. Design would go into the public domain and any one would be able to make use of that invention without committing patent infringement. This ah kept inventors from being able to hoard their own work, which jefferson and other saw as a way of protecting the public so that the most people could bend that from inventions while the inventor would still enjoy a fairly long span of time as the exclusive rights holder thought being like oh yeah, you're, big you're, going to be able to get rich in fourteen years and after that then You know you had your time and that invention needs to be a sort of free up, so that more people can take advantage of, The early version of this law also later

that patent applications should include detailed drawings and, if possible, a model to demonstrate the working components. The model part would be really important for nearly a century- and this would determine if the invention described was even possible if it would even worse and to understand the underlying working elements of that invention. Your model was such that he could not see how this invention could possibly work when built at scale. That was a beds. so the model needs to be able to convey. Yes, this is an idea that will work in the real world. One of the big issues with these models that they took up a lot of space right, like you had to find a place to put them, store them and preserve them, and thou would become a huge challenge later, on as more patent applications, would pour in now

if you were inventor you did choose not to pursue a patent at all. If you wanted to, you could just try and keep your design a secret. You did she used to not share draw eggs or models of your invention and maybe you make the thing and sell the thing, and he never bother to explain how the thing works to any one else, so you might want to do. That rather than describe in detail how your invention works, because that way you, would be the one making all the decisions about your invention forever, or least for as long as you're alive. however, if someone else were able to figure out how your invention works, then they could go and make their own version without going through you, and if you, I have a patent protecting your invention. You don't really have a lot of recourse if your competitor is better at marketing and selling your invention than you are, you could find

self at a major disadvantage, so, while filing a patent requires you to explain how the hack your thing works, the protection, and you get from up, and can outweigh any concern about now. Giving up your secrets. I must add that trade secret- you really want to protect so yeah That's another alternative to getting up. just not necessarily a wise one, depending upon what your invention is any way back to. The house We're patents in the? U s early inventors were starting to complain about the patent system that jefferson had kind of overseeing and there's not real a big surprise there, when you have only three batten applications that make it all the way through to become patents in a full year, it started to save this system is not working as intended, so some inventors complained that the people who are occupying the positions that were received

well for reviewing. The buttons were inherently biased against the industrial class. and there may have been some truth to that of the political leadership of the. U s largely came from more. Mr craddock lines, sometimes agrarian once thomas J for example, so we a couple of revisions to pat long, the following years, that if things around in a major way, so in seventeen. Ninety three, just three years in to this grand experiment for technical, if you count like seventy ninety nine, one ninety two and then maybe three. a big change happen, and that change was that it removed the I bugles right review applications and then reject them on the basis of lack of merit so kind. like a drastic opposite I'll. Things had been going up to that point. So essentially, the thought was that the patent

This should just grant patents, regardless of whether the application demonstrated a useful or new invention or not if they aids, their money. They gets their patents. That was the thinking. That would mean that the EU s court system would be received It's for hashing out all the different legal cases that involved with this approach. Remember if, if you I am able to review and reject a patent application and so on patents and invention, and then someone else tries to patent the same invention. You can't rejected. That means you. and a patent for both inventions, even the one clearly predated another which kind of is the whole question about who has those patent rights under fire right, these are things that would end up going to courts and the courts would have to decide all that, so it was a passing the buck up responsibility off to the court system, not that

I do necessarily wanted this, but this is how the law was changed. So if you, el the patent for something simple there had already been around for ages like you didn't actually invent something you just decide to file a patent for, like I, don't know a shovel, then technically you a application be, then you would get your patent approved and you could theoretically user patent to go after any one who made a shovel that in pale chances. Are that wouldn't really go very far in court like it? Wouldn't be? successful kind of tactic, but it would take up a lot of time. It would waste time. And to be a real nuisance and so yeah, this was a big change. Now another set of revision stated that only a u s, citizen would be able to receive a. U s. Patent that rule would also evolve over time. You would have exceptions or some language that would change the submit like if someone had been in the country for

least two years and expressed a desire to become a: u s as and then they would be eligible for a patent than the others would change again. So this was an evolving concept, but There was a time where, if you want to get a, U s! Pan! You had to be a! U S, citizen, interesting, because again, the united states had not existed for very long at all at this point from seventeen. Ninety two, eighteen, no two there was a solitary clerk in the state apart Who oversaw operations because rapidly This old tribunal approach, as simply said, let's just one person in charge of this and not have to take up department time with the eaters of three different departments coming together to make these decisions so came a clerk in the state department who had to do it, and I was rough so Once you get to eighteen, o too ever since then appoints a physician named

doktor, william thornton, as the superintendent of the patent office opposition he would hold for twenty six years Theirs and to this day down, Her thornton stands out as the person whose As leader of the patent office for the longest tenure doktor, though was a highly educated man. He was born in the british virgin islands in seventeen, fifty nine he was sent to who attend school in england, he ended attending the university of aberdeen and earned a medical degree there and Interestingly, when returned to the united states. He participated in a little competition, there was a competition to submit designs for what the euro. Capital building should look like so he created one

and he won the competition. He would actually go onto design other buildings that would become famous landmarks in Washington DC, not all of which would survive do, something's gonna happen in just a few years. But he did this without any formal training in architecture. He was just really interested in it and submitted his designs and one anyway he assumed the role of patent office superintendent on june. First, eighty oh to becoming the first superintended, though the united states patent off now. Originally the title was more or less informal. There was no official law that really establish the office, in fact he was allowed to hire an assistant until eighteen, ten, meant he had to oversee all the work of the office. Personally, it was an office consisting of one person, and that was the superintendent. it's hilarious

that you could be a superintendent and have no one to superintend. I guess any that year. Eighteen ten would also see the u s: government purchase a building. There was called blog its hotel. So it was a building that was meant to be the of the sort luxurious hotel, but from what I understand. Apparently, the money to build the hotel can a ran out mid construct. Nor towards the end of construction, and so it was not quite finished, Oh? U s. Congress purchased this building and choice, is it to serve as the headquarters for the united states post office and the patent office. That. stop this bit would later that being very bad news as it turns out, but it that's getting ahead of things. It must take another quick break when we come back we'll close out this part. One episode of

the history of patent law and the patent office in the united states hey. This is tanya rad from the scrubbing in with becca tilley and tanya rad podcast you'll know real. When you get it it'll say ebay, authenticity, guarantee and you'll feel it. Maybe it's head, turning handbag, a watch that says it all jewellery. That makes you look like the jam, sneakers and street where so fresh every step fills fly when it comes The style and luxury Ebay gets it there, making sure the things you love are checked by experts, not just any experts specialised experts, real people who love this stuff with real hands on authentication experience. So when You see that shiny blue check, mark that says authenticity guarantee shop with confidence. Every inch stitch so, and logo is verified authentic through a detailed inspection. That's how you know that Ebay's got your back because you finally step into those niggers put on.

that watch at your real gold, glow up three not a handbag over your shoulder or step out in that street, where you realize that feeling is, unlike any other, with ebay up until it guarantee you can trust that feeling of real is always in reach and sure your next purchase is the real deal visit, Ebay, dot, com for terms. Refresh your winner wardrobe and get ready for a holiday party season, with some updates from macy's loved to shake things up with bold bright colors. They have everything from royal blue coats and eye catching green handbags too highly pigmented beauty essentials. If you're looking for a more minimal vibe check out their warm texture, rich winter, neutrals for even more info and the must tabs, you need right now, visit macy's dot com, slash own your style. If you need a little help, finding your style footing pair up with a personal stylist they'll help, you put your look together, either in store or from the comfort of your home best of all its,

totally free so head over two macy's dot com slashed personal stylus to book. Your appointment today means zone has a car for every one, though, in every driver who, once more whatever you more, is more freedom, more and turning style, more turbo, charged excitement. Nissan has it. Yet more fun. Behind the wheel of the nissan see the sports car built to deliver the most thrilling. Dr ever get more act. Judging from the nissan rope there can take on any terrain with a twist of a dial, if more Adventure is what you're, after find it in the nissan pathfinder the vehicle, with the muscle to handle the journey king for more zip the agile and stylish nissan sandra is for you and for a drive. That's positively more electric nissan area has the perfect combination of raw power and refine luxury. When you one more of what makes driving exciting from sports cars and stands to ease, pick ups and crossovers nissan is the call

because more is all we do get there. less thrills and the more you ve been looking for check out nissan's, exciting line up more at nissan usa, dot com

to win the eldest around in the morning. Show for a special gathering at I heartland in state farm park is a holiday celebration with bun thought about the best and worst of holiday gifts, holiday songs and deserves the good and bad of holidays like real or vague trees, ignored and the statute of limitations on holiday, illumination, plus a very special elvis ran in the morning. So poem twas the night after christmas. What is sure to become an instant classic and, of course, all the usual hilarity you'd expect from this mary bands of humans. Don't miss this special event. Darting Monday december, eighteen that seven p m eastern had state farm park in ireland's unroll blocks available for a limited time afterwards cigarettes and check out all the exciting things Dave arm ass, offer suda than your virtual red polo and got ease and had to this date, farm neighbourhood, buying their new holidays, garbage or high bred chance to win a limited edition, hover boardgame perfect for writing in the snow. All across I heartland visit, I hire radio dotcom fast. I outlined to start playing today and don't forget to tune in for the event starting December eighteenth.

ok, we're back. Now we left off in eighteen. Tat with the bludgeon hotel becoming the new home for the post office and the patent office and doktor. Thornton is well into his tenure as superintendent of the bat novice. This would be the year when would finally be able to hire an assistant. Will two years after that war broke out. Now, fittingly there was the war of eighteen, twelve, so least everything lined up so that the war was on time. However, that were actually lasted till eighteen fifteen, so it kind of overstated welcome anyway war was primarily between america and the british frequently fought through native proxies like there native americans who were fighting on behalf of america on one side and fighting on behalf of britain. On the other side, now to go into all the reasons

Why there was a war in the first place, is beyond the scope of this podcast and besides, there is actually a lot of historical debate over what the heck really press the potatoes this war. I mean there are a lot of different factors and people argue over which ones worthy most important, but for all or episode the important is that the patent office was in washington, d c and an eighteen fourteen british forces cap church, washington, d c, All the government buildings were potentially endanger because they were important and they were big, and they were great targets for setting stuff on fire so the story goes that doktor thornton prevailed upon the british to spare bludgeon hotel arguing that the patents and the models within the hotel, where for inventions that could benefit people all around the world, not just in the united states,

If the british were to burn them all and destroy them, it would be inflicting severe self harm down the line, and that plea appeared to work. The british did not burn down the block at hotel the way they did with many other buildings including the u s, capital which we recall, was based off of doktor thorntons own design. In fact, congress itself would have to temporarily move into the bloodshed hotel in eighteen fifteen as result of having nowhere else to meet, because as the you s, capital was so badly damaged by fire and had to undergo extensive repairs and just to be historically fair, while you know you could say, while the british came in and started burning, all these important buildings isn't that terrible. We have we'll keep in mind that the americans had captured and raided and burned british held properties in canada, leading up to that. So

neither side was innocent, this kind of behaviour they both had been perpetuating the sort of warfare against one another. So I don't want to just be fair to the brits. The americans also got a little happy with the match. Sticks doktor thornton got into us some, fairly significant disputes during his time as superintendent for one thing: a major thing he disagreed with the seventeen. Ninety three revisions to patent law, that and he was not supposed to reject patents that failed to describe something that was new or useful. He thought that is dumb. It's just ludicrous. To give a blanket approval to any patent that happens to pay the application fee. He largely ignored that rule he Joe said, no know, I'm gonna tell inventors that I'm not gonna approve a patent.

If the invention they describe, isn't new or useful, so He became kind of the soul arbiter today, if a patent was worthy or not he so occasionally would list himself as an inventor or a co inventor on patents, I dont know to what extent the We contributed to the invention. maybe this was because he would sometimes work with applicants in order to get patents and shaped so that they could be approved. I don't know the answer to that, but they did bring The question his ethics like, is he just listing himself so that he can enjoy sir? of the the the reward, invention going into production. he was involved in africa or fraction If you're down here in the south, with Robert folded, That was the inventor of the steamboat. Fulton was fine, very frustrating to work with the patent office and this might be

He, because that doktor thornton was also close friends with a guy named John fitch, who was: contemporary and competitor to Mister fulton just goes to show that conflicts of interest. I have always been a thing doktor thornton served as superintendent of the patent office until eighteen, twenty eight and he stopped then like he totally stopped cassio heat. He died the next person to hold the office, would be thomas. jones, another, scientist and physician and that came quite a shock to a guy named William elliot William Elliot had been doktor, thorntons chief clerk sort of his right hand, man, Anne Elliot, had assumed that he, it would be promoted to superintendent upon doktor thorntons passing, but that did not happen. And so the seeds were sown for some

major drama in the? U s patent office but would that bit of foreshadowing we're going to to bring this episode to an end, and we will pick up here to me ro with tomorrow's episode, just a reminder. As I said on friday, I will be in las vegas at the I heart house of music which is free. It's outside the t, mobile arena, the festival, but it's a free by the festal. So if you want to swing bides a high on friday, I'll be out there I'll be the bald guy, giving greater podcast at six p m? hope to see you there and I hope you are all well thought you again really sick.

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