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given the saddle and come out and see us partners in orlando that land m Nashville just go to if you should know dot, com and click on the tour link, and you can get all your tickets right there, welcome to stuff. You should know a production of iheart radio, the welcome to the podcast, I'm josh and chuck's. Here too, it's just the two of us, that's cool, because this stuff, you should have the week off and she said person dudes Yeah party party on wayne There is also from bill tat. Excellent adventure. Wasn't it party was it I think? So I can

see george carlin doing it yeah, I'm probably wrong. I'm probably wrong so chuck we're talking today about something we've kind of touched on before, but when we touched on it we were like well. This is something that deserves it's own episode for sure near or we're talking, mrs another, in our sweet on. Mental health conditions, boy with a lot of them, but we still got more to go here. Do you know and I think these are important shows in return. We do these, I feel like we get good feedback on people who have suffered. From these conditions and then say thanks for either. Educating me and or getting the word out to people who. be a little was the word ignorant about some of the stuff is Michael Jackson would have said you ignorant about this etc.

he just use that word, alot really yeah, but bring regardless. That has nothing to do with anything when you mentioned just now that I'm people who, like kind of road and a right in when we do episodes like this dinner, emotional pain episode, and we mentioned borderline personality disorder a lot of people wrote in why I don't want to say a lot, but some people wrote in and they said you know thank you for treating it compassionately, because when most people talk about it, they talk about it like they despise it or they despise people with BP. D and the more you look into the more you realize like wow. This is maybe one of the hardest mental illnesses that you can possibly have think we can be said that in the emotional pain episode, but if I didn't know before it I do now have to do in this research yeah in its, so clear that its one that somehow seems to garner the least amount of empathy.

not only among just people who knew no may or may not know much about it, but even clinic ends and therapist. Otherwise, as that stuff, you sent me like a lot of times. Try to avoid or or severely limit the number of patients they have than they treat with b, makes it even more sad because it is a really tough one. Guess we'll just define it kind of off the bad, and you know a lot of, It's episode will kind of be defining it in different ways, because it's fairly complex, but it is a I was known as a lester, be personality disorder which is in the anti social personality disorder category, along with history personality disorder, narcissistic personality, disconnects starting pd deputies make it sound like you know, you talk about your own narcissistic p but

seems like a lot of what it can be is sometimes a disorder of perception and while there are very real things that that do that can trigger people with BP a lot of times is the way things are perceived incorrectly either about themselves or about others or others, actions, yeah I saw a lot of people confused borderline personnel. But he disorder with bipolar or at least think they're similar. I guess because they are not ease or something like that, but no they're, not similar bipolar, has much more of a brain and central nervous system basins whereas while borderline personality disorder has a component of that the executive function of the person in their prefrontal cortex either then develop in a fully normal way, or it is not functioning up to snuff. I guess

More than anything in the thing, a differentiated from bipolar is its Simon of meaning its psychological as much, if not or than it is physiological, yeah and also a bipolar is characterized meat. We did a good episode on that quite a while ago, but is characterized by like these highs and lows, and then in between those periods It can be relatively stable. Where as with bird. a borderline personality disorder, it's it's sort of all is there is one thing you sent me at a really really nail on the head at the end of those with I polar, may, have a hair trigger kind of response during an episode where when you have a borderline pd yoga trigger response all of the time- and I can't imagine- tells us that must be yeah so that that kind of

calls out one of the big hallmarks of BP, which is its emotional. This regulation there thing that would affect other people a little bit maybe not at all stuff that most people that roll off their back right could set somebody with BP, off into a rage that could last days pity early They also my u self harm who it's called now suicidal self injury to kind of externalize the pain, because there, the emotional this regulation is so profound. They dont know what their feet when they just no. There feeling everything all at once and its cairo, extending in in an ocean and a huge wave hit you and you're just It yours profoundly enveloped by emotion at that moment, as you are well aware, by a wave and completely. Knocks you sweep your way yet

There was another and we'll talk about her in great detail. Her name is marcia lynn hand, Is it like him? I'm gonna go with him yeah she's, as will see, is someone who not only suffered from Bp D, but I'm gonna pay. Here, the the treatment of baby d, but she said It's like having third degree burns on ninety percent of your body metaphor. Quickly so your lacking emotional skin and if your agony at the slightest, your movement and since you did mention self harm non suicidal self harm it also people with bpd. Suicide rate of was it like fifty times higher. then average in the population yeah, so that this is this. Is a joke. This is a very hard core disorder that bears more.

Maybe the and understanding herefordshire less. Let's go back to the beginning, Shelly cross border, and personality disorder is one of those terms that has taken on its own. meaning in the general population, but if you stop and think about It doesn't really reveal much about what its describing it's a wonder, though? Not at all, you know just frustratingly so yeah nick us back to a jerk name, adolf stern, who really jerked it out back in nineteen, thirty, eight. Yeah he was psychoanalyst in he basically If, if you didn't know what it was- and I didn't even fully know what it was, I always wondered what borderline meant, very simply meant in means. This is stern in a year you not quite on this, chronic level and you're, not quite psycho neurotic your boy. Finally, on the border between those conditions,

become a bit of each so we're just gonna call a borderline yen and psychosis is what we would still consider psychosis, but under cycle analysis, psycho neurosis is what we call like anxiety, depression that those kinds of mental illnesses. So I guess ada stern, wasn't really that it gave a jerk become, will apply to dig combined them appropriately. It was otto kerm burke, who is the serious shortcomings in the situation ok, so he was a psycho analysing the mid nineteen seventies and so that sort You know it forty something years later and He described it as an unstable personality and disorganized conception of the self, and this is when it was a sort of starting to become more and more kind of talked about. in officially, I think five years, That was in the dsm version. Three yeah I mean that's pretty quick fur, something you just starting to identify.

five years later makes it in the dsm because they don't turn those yes m out, like you know, every few months it takes years to put one together, so cranberry seem too stumbled on to something that was worth looking at very, very, very quickly. yeah and isn't there, sir, move in or belief now that it's a lot of people think something that is like a diagnosis. She shouldn't even give right, yeah, there's walter about, that we're think we can kind of pepper it threw out. You know, get by your eye by yes, there is a school of thought that basically says BP is now a personality disorder. It's not even a mood disorder, although some people say it would better be characterized as a mood disorder. They say it's it's a cluster of symptoms that overlap with a bunch of different actual disorders and that the problem with that you say what will who cares. You're dying people group of people whose I'm rate of suicide is fifty times journal,

pollution. That alone is worth like, identifying and helping those people out, but there what they're saying is number one BP d gotten such a bad name in the general population that you literally stigmatizing somebody when you give them that diagnose it enormously heavy weight. You put somebody receiving Amy train psychiatrist. I know what I'm talking about: and you have borderline personality disorder, everybody stepped back. Basically yeah. I mean it's it's almost in line with seeing someone is this the path is print things get as far as like that. Stigma goes very much so yeah for sure. That's a great analogy actually so that so some people are like. Ok, it's it's stigmatizing, but even more than just the sciences in a surly there like we're saying it there it symptoms rather than an action, disorder Apparently, the working group for personality

he disorders further dsm. Five, that's the most recent one they actually said, If I were not sure that there should be a categorical disorder, which is the type that you either have it or you don't they they they suggested it should be dimensional, which means that it exists on a spectrum right so you can have a little bit to be pity a lotta BP Brain the middle or whatever and make our region And now is so it's a categorical diagnosis where, if you dont have be pity you dont have a pity. If you don't fit the criteria. If you do, you got BP right, then we'll talk about the criteria in the sector. but we do want a sort of reintroduce marcia lend a hand who, like I said, the real pioneer for her work in the treatment and recognition of BP very late in her life, reveal that she suffered from BP after me. No,

patients and friends encouraged her to come forward. and she said basically you know I'm to do it. I'm not gonna die coward is what she said, but The longest time does not out without information, was born in Oklahoma in I guess the fifties and in the nineteen sixties and high school, was diagnosed with schizophrenia, drugged up given electroshock, hospitalized was in was was practicing self harm. Of all kinds, and then had it, sounds like a a moment of clarity but a pretty profound religious experience. Yet the only thing missing was a visit from saint Michael a person ledge semi, cheese catholic after this religious experience she is able to which means a lot to do with self love that for, though she was able to still these emotions that she had before button managed it

point where she wasn't practicing self harm, and did she come up with the term the co acceptance, or did she just buy into that? I do Oh, if there was a descriptor of hers or not ok, I don't think she came up with that, but basically is universal. no acceptance is like hey, listen. This is how things are with me. This is things or with the world. I ex this and I'm not going to compare this to what I think the reality should be, what other people think it should be there's a huge, but that follows that though, but got bite I am going to do what I can to change those things about myself right, so that is the basis of a type of cognitive behavioral therapy that she came up with cold dialectical, behavioral therapy, and it is its basis.

Radical acceptance and the desire to examine in change how you interact with the world externally and its basically, the gold standard for treating a borderline personalities, right now, yeah and it seems like a really works. I saw that it was kind of may prove in treatment to reduce recital behaviour which, as you know, that The tail end of what a lot of people experience with ppp and the guy news and what will talk about treatment later, but The good news is if you have b, b d, or some of it does can get better and they have. They have proven and shown time and time again now that, through the treatments that discuss later it is, it is absolutely something that One can get ahold of in most cases. Right, which is great. That is great I mean like is for us as bad of

stigmas? Bp has the idea. I don't like it has a very high success. Rate of treatment is pretty encouraging now so linda hands basis of. of her understanding. Her definition of borderline personality disorder is that in its bio, social people who have BP are either genetically or biologically predisposed to having BP, but not everybody who has that predisposition is going to be triggered into developing, be pity it takes basically a biological substrate for BP. Usually your prefrontal cortex hasn't developed in a certain way, and so your executive function isn't functioning likening. I could have should the dye gets join together with a trigger

usually mistreatment of whether its abuse neglect invalidation via your parents. As a kid- and you put those things together in very often it results in what you be diagnosed with later, be pity yeah man, one thing I really took away from this, and this is something that you know Emily nine. It most instead I know our way into is Paul. You gotta validate your kids, yet its new, which is crazy, but it's you you yeah, you gotta, validate their emotions, invalidate their expense. it in their feelings, even it's something that you don't think it's. Like has the most relevance or whatever or even, if, like the kid, is wrong about something like emotionally wrong, like you still have to validate that and then talk them through it. But you can't do is just discount a kid's feelings, cause that that's like telling them that their truth isn't real and that's damaging. I know and in doing

parenting right sounds like a weighty nightmare to me difficult, parenting, Harrington correctly yeah, now I can imagine the exhaustion along combined with the fear of dismiss stepping once or twice them there. You go you scrooge kid up for life yeah. What you gotta do is in my experience is like you can't beat yourself up too much because parent, fails We can really go down a rabbit hole of your own I'll bet, depression, if you, if you screw up and you can't do that because kids resilience and you just gotta like you got it proved it that you can like pick yourself up move on and do better? He now jack and I don't think, Linda hands ideas that it just takes one or two missteps. It takes like a past years. A brochure genuinely bad parent very freely

they have BP themselves, and that is a real challenge to parenting. Well, in and of itself a bit you dont have to have had an apparent with BP to develop BP, but to be play it safe apparent. That is not at all meeting your needs robustly nationally and dumb. I say we take a break him we'll come back and talk about how you would be diagnosed with BP woody Let's do it is a Although there is not a yada yada, that means no contracts, no price hikes and no surprises. We don't even had with the lawyers and make us we put it first say no price hikes. We mean when you join metro, your price will never increase for talk text and smartphone data are only exclusions are for a limited time. Promos priest urges and third party services, Nada, yada, yada, yada, yada,

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Ok chuck, so we said that the police, in the dear some five, the personality disorder and just branching real, quick, a mood disorder describes patterns in feelings, leg. Mood swings in that eyes and lower limits, pretty reliable. That you're going to have it one way or another personnel The disorder focuses how you relate to others and they ve been definitely make sense to me that you would consider BP personality disorder them yeah, that seems to be a really key thing. Is that it's it's really sturbed year relationships, I'm so to be diagnosed, you fit at least I've under the following. Nine there were can read for you

I chronic feelings of emptiness and its emptiness feeling like isolated or lonelier hopeless, sure emotional instability, action to day to day events messaging we're talking about earlier, like sir mountains out of more hills seems slightly reductive, but this kind of a basic way to say and k, frantic efforts to avoid abandonment, whether or not their real or imagined that in eastern yes, the abandonment issue, and in this very very much includes emotional abandonment is a really big precursor. Yet, unstable self image or sense of self, what else Also behaviors, usually a big one, and you have to have impulsive behaviour, these two areas that are harming europe. day to day life, lowering eating disorder and gambling addiction, or something like that right,

another one is this is based on, and so this is where some psychiatry cb like see. This is not this is this: is a symptom? Were women about here, but its unstable and intense interpersonal relationships. Music You're really really close to somebody, for you know a couple of days, and then they do something you don't like and they're the worst person world running happen very very quickly, with people with BP enemy Stick around and stay in that person's life. You can find yourself walking on eggshells very quickly because you don't want them. to turn on you all of a sudden brown, so that's a huge one. If you have a lot of unstable, intense relationship, people that just kind of m o that is usually a big give away with brain with pity yeah. The last three recurrent suicidal or self, harming behaviors, who talked about that little bed and stress.

It paranoia or dissociative symptoms like feeling like the self the world isn't real. That's it feels like that's probably at the our end of the spectrum for the most severe ended and then, when we, earlier, was inappropriate and intense anger or difficulty controlling anger, I didn't miss it. Those purposeful wanted to end with a big one, ok I didn't, do it well, there's a lot of always heat, saying this qualifiers is just so easy to say, but I know I think it perks people's ears up like oh, this person doesn't know what they're talking about. So let me rephrase that I have seen that there are schools of thought regarding borderline personality disorder, that it is a a rage.

Sports trauma. You'll get a dad. Is your response to unresolved trauma? That's how you learn to deal with those feelings in those emotions to rage at people, because rage is as much a hallmark of BP as fear of abandonment is right and that's why some people critical of including it as a categorical diagnosis and the dsm five. There saying your PA, solid, rising rage. No, you just need to teach people how to identify their emotions and how to express them in a more appropriate, less hostile manner, and that's how you would treat somebody with bpd or not even with bpd somebody with a rage disorder, but some people think that that is what what people are mistaking for bpd ok, interesting you're going to be diagnosed like I said, five of those nine I you know, like you'll, be talking to a psychologist. Her someone in an interview, you might go out a question

something really and truly right; click, click click or they may speak to your family or something like that, it can be. If to diagnose, and there like you said, there's there's a lot of overlap between. You know that like anxiety and depression in things like ptsd and eating disorders, lot of more bidet, so I get why people can have issues with like this diagram this rather than its like a cluster of symptoms of other things. But what if he grew, that altogether than it in color its own thing than a majority the harm in that again, I think it's the stuff. And then I'll be distracting from treating the other underlying stuff. Maybe because they are there also. Is it and we'll talk about firm suit

but there is in a specific pharmaceutical for BP. That's another coup that some people point to that. It's not it's right. It's were missed taking it somehow, and I don't wanna like overstate the that school of thought is widely considered. Like an accepted diagnosis, railway line personality disorder order, so you want to make it seem like other. The cracks are in the facade, it's about it from all any day now at nine point, is people make some pretty good points, how well we understand it or how well we're defining and were possibly missing some component of it yet and isn't that stuff debate, usually herb it should be- and I hope it's couched in how to best treat people and help people right. Yes, rather and just like pooping ideas here now, I think that

exactly right. But I mean again if we come to this place, where even if, if a bp is this enter of a giant van diagram of a bunch of darius orders yea and were mistaking that centre overlap of all of them as its own thing? If you if you zero in on that group- and they have a fifty fifty times higher rate of suicide than the general population. Again yeah there it's worth zeroing in on you know, The third thing and, like you said, I'm dialectical behind Therapy is folk. Initially on individual sessions that are better than our aim to control that that behavior, suicidal yeah, yeah for sure you did mentioned earlier as far as causes go that sometimes there is a genetic link, but it seems that its really. The disorder that is like may be passed. apparently child, but some of those traits, and maybe that's because it is sort of a cluster

Sometimes you can't, you know you can have dvd and come from like a pretty good. You know I'm stable at bringing, but that seems to me the outlier- and it seems to be that, like most people that end up suffering from this had a. Pretty lousy childhood. Yet so they were either neglected or just kind of saddle emotionally unavailable parents, you just now really there for them didn't go to their dance. Recital kind of thing never went to single one, the excessive control sounds very freudian, but I saw one a classic example is an absent father, and and a domineering mother. It's like how many times have you as trotted that one out, but apparently early does have a screwy effect on people as a kid

and then also, if your parents or parent head mood, disorder, themself or misused substances, that would probably have affected their parenting well yeah it. This also made me think about like parenting. of old versus parenting, now in and parents can there, there are still, of course, is a huge range of bad. Since these days and then saying that everyone's doing it right now, but it definitely seems, like things turned a corner and parents, are trying A lot harder these days and like the sort of the old days of like kids raise themselves and you can ignore them in Bonn. Should I mean another so happens, but it just seems like happened a lot more back in the day and and maybe in the future. Things like this will be less and less yeah. That's the hope for sure amended it sort of a basic the servant elementary way of looking at it, but I just feel like

parents are more aware of stuff these day and night. The people of our generation and certainly the generator before that it was even worse as far as mental involvement in parents, you either one or the other in a fight, there's a lot of times. You know. Historically, the ones are like no we're we're, not gonna pair we're doing the work and we're gonna bring home the page acting so like I added I talked about before. Added that wasn't very involve, but it will. It wasn't like the kind of thing where he I ended up with bpd, because a bit you know for sure, you raised a question, though, in my mind, I wonder what percentage of boomer grandparents aren't allowed to see their grandchildren I'll bet, it's than you think are allowed to. You are not allowed to like this, have contact with their grandkids. yeah or its very limited and supervise and set actually, though, a lot of those grandparents, all of a sudden, are the most doting and the most doting and a scandal

Parents like oh, look a while this is great. Well, where are you when I was a good right air assure, but also I've? I think in some cases that the more they don't there are actually also undermining the parenting of their kids year under their dinner at the s, and imagine it can be very painful for apparent who had a on attentive parent to now have that parent be a variety the grandparents you have bpd. I would guess that would be a rating these incredible. I imagine it would be so There are plenty of other ways that you could probably develop the pd another very classic. One is any kind of abuse, emotional, sexual, physical abuse at the hands of your parent or a caregiver, and they see that about. Eighty percent of people with BP experience some level of childhood, trauma, whether it was emotional neglect or some sort of abuse. It is, it is a huge factor, a huge risk factor in developing BP for sure

absolutely and it seems to be exacerbated if you're a kid who is. Maybe Judas innately, a little more unsure of yourself or a little more vulnerable as a person, and then that is real. first with a parent who is not valid. Aiding your experience in your motion as a kid so year you're already starting back sorted behind the april, and then your parents are making it worse and so that can definitely you know easy toward that condition. Once I get that's a chicken or the egg kinda like air. You like that you know already in your parents is reinforcing ear. I get that kind of. Did you to do that, because your behaviour ticket, not chicken a parent or the disorder rashness? You know but we said earlier that there is also believed to be a biological component to a too there's. Not all psychological and it does

seemed to have something to do with executive function in the brain, one of the big things that executive functioning does is helps you control your emotions, not just in accepting things and dealing with them and moving on, but also year outward display of emotions, if you dont have exact, the function. Your emotional, this regulation is more likely You include explosions of anger, uncontrolled or anger, and then one of the thing is just BP that has that there's plenty of other disorders that have it, but one of them one of the key traits of BP, is it can last a really long time too? Can we make a t shirt that has a chicken that says parent across the chickens, chess, her and the next to an egg? In? Is mental disorder love it and just ass? The shirt

explanation figured out or don't how about this, though, on the back of his shirt mark is coming out of the egg? to really confused people. Oh well they change things. I like it so whereas the number of people who experience Bp D it's kind of a wide range like all this stuff, because it's one of those disorders, it is a lot of you don't admitted or seek treatment, so it's really hard to nail it down, but Libya helpless, with this one and she said, point five percent to six percent- and they find it about four times more in women, but they ve so found. Other studies are like now: it's the women who are brave enough to come forward and see, treatment and it happens just as much in men I also saw there. It's a young, that's an indictment of clinicians who basically have to figure out for themselves whether the person has BP and that their more like,

did your sign it to a woman and a man, a male patient interests there so regardless. It is very frequently die us more than you think it's one of the more common serious mental illnesses. Apparently, people receiving impatient mental health treatment, one in five of those people are diagnosed with BP, so it is very prevalent, at least in inside the the the clink yeah the mental clink, the elemental glink. One other aspect is a very black and white thinking you can have talked before about a splitting, which is You know really revering an idolizing somebody and then very quickly spiralling them. In this have been very very frequently in like several times throughout a day, even or it can be like just a switch that is permanent.

someone needs to really like it. I, like all of a sudden, it does no more. He display them in their thereon. The the bad person list forever yeah and that's that falls under the larger category of black and white thinking. It's not just applied to people, it's rare events things anything a dandelion can be entirely evil or the fully good cause. You see things in people in events as entire we one way or the other you said, for unrealistic expectations. If you like briar one hundred percent pure person, and I love you that prisoners, inevitably going to let you down in some way shape or form short, because no one's a hundred percent pure unkind, similarly neurons hundred percent evil and most p then you would labelled evil as if you have been indeed, probably aren't evil at all. They just did something you really didn't like, but now to you that person is evil not not to be trusted, not

you know they did something wrong at their core their evil and that's another huge hallmark of BP as well. you mean even darth, vader was was once a year. Boy here. just trying to learn the ways of the force. The boy did. He get pale ass. He aged you sure did this can also this splitting can happen with yourself. You you may vacillate wildly from feeling like yours you're, ok and that you feel good about yourself and you have a little bit of self confidence to really within yourself, that's when, like things like, you know self harmed come into play, since of your own personality. Can really change, europe. You know you could very much It's like Kennedy, these wild switches between, your goals and lie fur or how you want to present yourself to the world or light Your values and ethics and things like that and it

I'm not really sure, but it cannot seems like almost like. sort of auditioning yourself, kind of over and over sometimes oh, let me when we tried this new me or whatever or auditioning, are trying out a new thing that you think my help they that makes sense. No totally. It's also circumstantial too. They might act different ways to different people depending on what they think those people want from them or yes to impress like a friend or a new person, or something like that they might adopt that persons like copies and interests, but I saw it explained, is the people who have be and do that if they don't understand where they enter the other person begins because I have no idea what they believe in they just don't know so. They're kind of open for suggestions. Basically interesting yeah should take a break. Oh geez, I came out a left field

sure, I think, is a good time to take a break and then we're going to come back and talk more about personal relationships. as a matter of vital. Mobile there is not a yada yada. That means no contracts, no price hikes and no surprises. We don't even had with the lawyers makers, we put it first We say no price tags, we mean when you join metro. Your price will never increase for talk, text and smartphone data are only exclusions are for limited time. Promos priest urges and third party services, nada de nada,

I know yeah that data, not a yada yada means wireless without the gotcha that only amateur. Let's be honest, the rental car industry is the definition of boring rent a car, but you don't want a vacation. You want the vacation, you don't want a job. You want the job that is always over. Ah, that's why six doesn't offer a car. They offer the car the cars. You love for the prices. You'll love even more choose from six premium rental fleet at sixth doc Tom sixed rent, the car people are excited about what I would do for them and ibm we're excited about what I will do for business your business introducing watson eggs, a platform designed to multiply outlet my training with your data when you watson,

If your business, you can build ai to help coders code faster customer service, respond quicker and employees handle repetitive tasks in less time. Let's create ai that transforms business with watson. Next learn more at eyebeam dot com, slash watson, I b m, let's create a measure by tee mobile. There is not a gouty other. That means no contracts, no price hikes and no surprises. We don't even ahead with the lawyers and make us say we put it first We say no price tags, we mean when you join metro, your price will never increase for talk text and smartphone data are only exclusions are for limited time. Promos priest urges and third party services, nada de nada, I gotta yeah. That data means wireless without the gauchos omen, camera yeah.

we're back and talking about borderline personality disorder in one kind of hallmark with someone with BP is what's a called like a favorite person or just a person in their life that they have. I cyril, even chosen who they ve hooked up with it could be a spouse, it could be a partner, it could be a friend or coworker anyone that you really have latched onto as someone may be the only person that you really really trust with yourself yeah. I don't think you even trust that person you just that's the person you ve come to find you can lean on the most. I think, but here f p for those. In the know, the fairy person is very frequently. The somebody who

it was willing to kind of go along with this, at least for rail there's, a ton of flattery and admiration and praise, and all of your greatest points are pointed out all the time you're, also in real danger of letting them. person down and facing that wrath of re drew anger, hostility and if you, come back for more you're, going to find that you who was the favourite person, might start all bring your behaviour to fit the person with BP these behaviour, so you I start considering them when you're making plans like oh, we can go town this weekend, because this our friend with BP was going to you, know, wanted us to to come out further their sunday picnic or something like that. Right, like you, would be afraid to not go to

a picnic in you generally and of feeling like you're, walking on eggshells in its codependent relationship. That involves the favour. Person seems to be the person who is willing to take it the longest through the most and that it's not a permanent Thing typically, people get burned out on it and eventually abandon the person with dvd, which is again at the root of what they are fearful of, fearful of rejection or abandonment. The tragedy of the whole thing is that their behaviour, almost inevitably guarantees that they will be rejected or abandoned by the people around them. Yeah that sort of self fulfilling feedback, loop and yeah- I mean it's it's it's a big burden for an f p, and if you are a spouse or partner of some one- and you are the f p, like that's a lot too, an and so a lot of empathy goes out to those people as well

your altering your own behaviors, like literally things like. I saw people like you know how to I had to step out of like really important meetings. Just to answer a text within ten minutes, because I knew that that would set them off just little things like that can really add up to someone's burden. one of the other things that is difficult to deal with when you're in F p. Is that person wants you, although themselves there? You are right and very much by other people. They will try to isolate you from your other friends in your family so that they have you all to themselves, not just for time. I'm sure time is a big part of it also to cut down on any rational explanation, irrational moines from those other people like. What are you doing? Why are you putting up with this? isolating them would help cut down on that to gear, and

You know if you're, an f p. There's always the sort of saturn scary possibility that there could be a split incident that all of a sudden you go from being the f p to being the most despised person. I would imagine that something that has is probably comes over time and is not like a cat things can be but again be hurried for sure that it can. but it can turn on a dime the other. The other problem with it as well chuck is that the person with bpd almost variously immediately regrets doing that right and so they'll make every effort to try to win the person back, which probably those pretty growth for the f p I and those, things like I'll. Never do it again like they know what they ve just dying is worth regretting is worth feeling horrible, not because they just been abandoned a rejected. They just did it to himself.

so another trying to fix it amended, but it's all just kind of built on you know. Nicky ground, because it's it's gonna happen. again because it's impossible for that person not to let the person with BP down again yeah I mean I get the impression that people with BP generally dont have any illusions about themselves, because it such a struggle. Well, that is a big problem with not only getting treatment but seeking treatment, because when you aim is structured in a certain way since you were a little kid, you ve just responded a certain way to things even people around you're telling you that is messed up or you're being hostler whatever to you, that's normal, that's natural, so really really hard to interrogate your own behaviour little. I change it because it's eames normal and natural ray you. It's not that you to change your behaviour, because each you chase somebody away. It's that that some left you now. You need to go, get em back

rio. Even if you have people around you telling you it's going to take a lot of emphasis, repeated constant emphasis is that what you're doing right now is abnormal and harmful? And you need to go get help for this and that's yeah, that's one of the curses of it. They can't see it they, at least if they can see it most of the time they can't well- and this is I mean all- the mental health disorders require support system, but this one really seems to to sort of me at the time The of needing a really solid vast support system for treatment like we said, the good news is that treatment works they use I think that personality disorders were untreatable and that you are just kind of stuck with it. they have found that about half the people who are treated to seek treatment and are treated no longer meet the criteria after

the ten year leaving. It doesn't mean that they're, you know their perfect in autumn and fixed it means they can still have some symptom. But they have it under control enough to where they don't meet that five out of nine criteria and that's what is really sort balinese managing something that that, like you dead it that you might have had since you were like a baby, deliver productive. You know healthy life And that's kind of way: you're gonna, learn and dvd, which again is the gold standard for treating be pity. Is that you to be taught these skills how to deal with disappointment with them. went down with somebody not responding to your text, you're, going to learn a different set of skills and how to deal with that, both internally and externally, and one of the things that that kind of differentiates dvt from other kinds of behavioral therapy is that there's group sessions, but it's not a group session day. You know

we ve seen in a movie like my right meal, I was in a movie called no exit net featured in our group decided, and I think we can still see that our netflix. I think it is now like that, it's more almost like a classroom instead and then people get up in practice, these skills in front of others and with others, but it's not making a group fair possession in the traditional sense, but that's a huge component of it. As it is group work yeah and it's you know if it sounds a little bit like cognitive. Behavioral therapy is sort of based on that in part, because it's a real. And I get how it works. It seems like a real sort of rubber It's the road, practical ways of learning new behaviors, rather than an unfair bia's. As a huge part of it. But it's not just let's therapy in talk about your past until your blue in the face and its ike We we know what's going on and we think we know where I came from generally now, less real.

We talk about putting this into daily practice, like literally doing things and having a checklist anne and putting something practice, which I think is this I mean not only for dvd but stuff like that, is so it so speaks to me as a good way forward when you have any kinds of problems, because it's it's just a practical thing, it's learning new behaviors tat, another criticism of of pity its own disorder- that deep d b t get can be used to treat all sorts of different symptoms of all sorts of different disorders. It just makes a great that africa, but there is also another type, therapy that supposedly were truly welfare, dvd called psycho dynamic therapy, and it is talking about what you went through his child to europe in the face, but more about relating to relating back to her

you deal with people in your current life people in situations it relating it back to it, so that its not just one big confusing block, You understand your own behaviour better as a result of interrogating what you went through as a kid, and I guess it smells a lot like it. It believes borderline is like a a response. The trauma by using an rather than anything else, yeah If you can build out your emotional life map Imagine that's a very helpful thing to do yeah and then one other thing that really kind of underscores. How difficult dealing with people with borderline personality disorder can be one of the main components of dialectical. Behavioral therapy is what call a therapist consultation team. We re basically a group of therapists working with patients with BP

having like the blow steam session about them right in reminding one another like these. Are people suffering and we need to have any form, that's how hard it can be to treat people with BP. Yeah and, like I said at the beginning, there are therefore that will refuse treatment, because, while the isn't that we talked about. They say that national lines on mental health basically says if you bp and recognise that, and you want to see treatment, whether its You know dvd or any other kind you offers while seek out some that specializes in dvd, but if there is no one in your area, that does that they might you have a right, and this this goes with any. sort of emotional or mental problems. If anyone has there there or can for you. So you have the right to advocate for years. often find somebody who, works for you and who

Who will not stigmatize you? Unlike really like it's ok to question them. Make sure it's a good fit for you yeah for sure I think people just I dunno I think part of problems with a lot of these disorders is people can't be advocates for themselves and then might be part of their problems, so they're not gonna, advocated themselves when receive treatment and they'll just take whatever they can get in? It's not all therapies created equal and their mister greeley. Definitely not. I think, when the problems will be pity is that they might over advocate for themselves in like chase a soft, basically right, but the the thing is chuck is like you said: people take what they can get in part, because there's a huge shortage of psychiatrists, in particular in the united states people will take. Whoever can get the men within a year or less waiting lists are crazy. It is crazy.

Well, if you want to know more about BP, there are a lot of articles in resources all over the internet. To help you and since I said that the time for listening to me, gonna call. This was just call it was figures one day, I will write to email that I've been formulating a my mind for years, trying to put into words, but the show is to me. I'm tearing up just writing that sentence which provides you with a hint of weather, Email hasn't been written yet wink wink. in the meantime, I want let you know that Both of your names are listed on my big thanks to portion of my bachelor thesis custom, in my country to thank your college coach for their support during a graduation, yearn your thesis forward. I have It was only right. Do also thank the other people who supported me to the same extent as my coach, and this includes you guys

I don't feel the least bit dramatic when I say my thesis would not have been written, but wasn't regos, keeping me saying what you ve done for me over the years, but this year are really needed it more than ever. So, thank you all caps double exclamations I bet it picture my forward where your names, your mission and since I'm dutch afraid it won't make since the eu, but I think hey, brings and joy to see the prayer, some random j scattered throughout the year totally chuck has a little no sign through that's weird from not showed that means means watch, but don't count, and that is with much love in amidst gratitude from suzanne. Oh I'm gonna do my best year in Chris Vick, again crystal greece, it I like today are you I ask of you. I j k elections are going prison. Thank you, syrian I'm, in a collar suzanne. Thank you.

What is it then that was very kind of you. Thank you for tearing up. I think you did this right that you know. If he asked me, don't you algeria. If you want to be like susie and let us know what we meant to you, we always love hearing that kind of thing. For you, just right in say anything. You want whereat, stuff, pug As at I heart, radio, dot com, the stuff you should know is a production of iheart radio for more podcasts. My heart radio visit, the iheart radio, app apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite, shows the introducing uber teen accounts and uber account for your teen. With always an enhanced safety features. Your team can request

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