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I walk into the pot calf and how we firmly and I'm scared out- and today we are talking about a topic that new and dear to my heart and probably learn dear to the heart of anybody who has ever studied Geisha or even the japanese culture, because it comes up a lot. I first learned about this story in Jody Cobb's book about and dirty cop is a woman who was the only westerner to the best of my knowledge to ever be fully indoctrinated, indignation, culture and because in the west we often equate geisha, we think of them as leg sort of high class colleagues, but that's not really accurate. At all. There really artists can avoid an miscreant misperceptions about the ottoman hair Mama re like they were really women of culture and really artists in their own right and performers and was not completely, of a sexual element. But that really wasn't we do with our cultures about and so that

really open the eyes. I think, to a lot of westerners about it and so to the story of Oki tee. Who is really one of those four great tragic figures visa culture. And when you told me what you were thinking of researching, I didn't ring a bell, but once I started reading about her story, I thought, of course they heard a fire, and part of that is just because it has a strong retail element to accept in the worst possible way in Ohio, tragic, tragic story, but it it will. Probably familiar to a lot of listeners, even if the name is unfamiliar right away. You swell and even if the story itself does ring familiar to them the themes of adieu because it as you said it, it's like your classic kind of tragic romance story here,

there are a lot of elements that are very common and that's not really accidental will discover, because a lot of this is in embellished tale that no has grown in reputation and the details have been a stout here in their along the way and enveloped her romance a abolish duty hum another thing than it probably was. It has We're going to sort of do a classic, Steffy missed in history class. Take on it then ran and examine that story. The story that your likely to hear the legend, the and then what historical basis. There really is right: the sort of wealth, being in thrilling but living when few yeah. Now the tale to see how it happened. Changes in interpretation of the era. So

for quick background of e g was born in December eating forty one in Shimerda, Japan, her parents, the factors were each Ebay and his wife, Morocco. And they were fishermen. I mean they were no fishing village. Camera, is the southernmost port city and the easy peninsula. So this is, time when Japan was not open to the outside world in that plays into story pretty dramatically, but according to the legend, which is our gonna kick it? I e g was incredibly beautiful and was sold interrogation house when she was twelve years old- and I guess, if you read this this book about the history of geisha. Is that a normal age to be entering the geisha? Ah, yes, I mean and when we face she was sold them. The geisha Hau fat in and of itself has some connotations that sound, really bad,

for a lot of these families having a daughter that couldn't contribute to the work of the day to day, like needs of a fishing family. They couldn't afford to keep children and raise them well and give them the things that they felt that they needed. So it was really in many impoverish families eyes a better thing to be lake. Go to this life of opulence where we'll be given everything and care of what has become a woman of you, no great grace and beauty, so it while it sounds really creepy anyway, I mean it is unsettling to think that a family be like we're. Gonna give you to these people common and as far as AIDS untrained remember, because it has been a little whilst over the whole book through but I have heard accounts of kids much younger than that, even where it's just from the gecko. They kind of don't even have the resources to really get their kids through

early formative stage in the amount of training that again show would have to go through to you'd start very early. You're, learning, thick and dance and things like that that take a look of a lifetime of practice. And the buyer there's a biography about Oki, which is often referenced in a lot their literature about her called butterfly in the wind and they re Nora and its interest. Because it's written very much in the style of a novel. So in terms of historical basis, I question it a little bit and right the lot a very prose fiction style which talks about the inner feelings in the inner thoughts of of the characters of the we were, you know, there's really probably now historical documentation that kid lend sources to that good, read in it. It's fundamentally you no kind of a really fleshed out in

the version of the sea legend like its told over and over, so that in in mind as we go forward, as you mentioned earlier, wherein the accords legislative action. And if you go after her to do more research on this yourself to it, and you pick up the back and think wait a minute. Historical now definitely does not read as a textbook. So it really is kind of a novelist asian of of the story and in this book were told of e g meeting, even though she is in in the geisha culture at this point she it's a man to do more to in the after,

of a storm that his shimerda and a lot of people had to evacuate and she meets hindering the evacuation city and it gets out of the clay, stirred geisha training, environment, yanked story, one at that point. She was already working as a game. I can't I'm Turner member if she was still in the apprentice stage or she was working alongside another ass. She had already ascended to be in her own right of fully fledged geisha, but you know Tomorrow's telling the story of duty is troubled because the opulence, Asia World in this sort of indulgence of, is very unsettling to her. Yes, it is really how rehearsing yeah, how a person should live, and she dreams of like a simpler life. She wants to be a wife and a mother and silence. It's you too much you who is very kind to her and, unlike the gentlemen that she's been entertaining, isn't want anything Her he's not you know, she's not paid to make can't make conversation with him. He just wants to

with her and care for her, and he doesn't care that she had been a geisha. So she thinks all her dreams are about True care, though we know that down equipment. Why? Exactly? As you might think it has in eighteen. Fifty three Commodore Matthew, Perry of the. U S: Navy first landed in Japan. And by eighteen. Fifty four. He had sailed to speeches Hometown motor harbour of varying number of ships, depending on the account reed had just pretty startling. Does that's like a historically significant event? Is the dead Hamelin? Historically, I mean it's huge, but even so indifferent historical tax that are cited by their tax, different numbers of the ships. He brought them change up in forty nine Florence Summit, seven and from its nine, but the most for in pay is not the number I shall read out what he was there to accomplish and to demand really mandate that Japan a stout,

trade and diplomatic relationships with the? U S, because Israel in early Japan was closed society and had then for its history. So this was But they milestone shift in in in world really It also pretty important in a peach life. Yes, now in some telling the story, the dates get real floppy in some telling the story, Oki Chee was seen by Townsend Harris too became the Euro Council in eighteen. Fifty six- and So all ready there sitting dicey there, because that's after these, these treaties were being discussed, namely that doesn't going to be the first thing we get into getting into the legend debunking yeah. So there is one version of the story where Townsend Harris sees her when, seventeen she's leaving a bath house with a friend of hers.

And he thinks she's. Quite lovely. Sheep doesn't interact with him during the but then later on people come into her life and say by the way. We need you, because this journey thanks, you're beautiful, and if we can give you to him, it might Greece the wheels of this whole negotiation process. I mean things, go a lot smoother for us because they were not going well, ah, no other accounts I have a key not being seen at about half Ralph, She was chosen by government official left because you re so lovely exactly shoot, she'd be good candidate. I'm sure he'll, like her oh in some versions to they offer up something for her taking on this road, and that is a job for her beloved who was a just a ship's carpenter. You know of a very simple sort of working man. They offered to make him a samurai, high profile, high class position,

counts. Those say that he was just move, the way we live in a job in another town. He I wasn't here the reward, if you do that, it's just getting him. Of the way, and that's because, depending again on account, they might have been engaged. They might have even been married rights. Those accounts differ some say they were already married. Some say they were engaged some sick just say they were in love. That he's like a man who needed to be removed from the equation Take it all easier, and in some cases that's told, though it was offered up as a negotiation tactic, with a key and thirty months we will make your lives easier financially. If we can give a kid she did this foreigner and in others it's much harsher and they just cunning gave hurt. Tell him, and they just kind of push him off into something else.

Though, however, that ended up going down. Trees were signed in Shimerda in June of eighteen, fifty four The two seiners in question were Commodore Matthew, Perry for the? U S and take a coup higher she for the shogunate and the agreements did have a major effect. As we keep thing on world history, they opened up Japan to international trade. So it seems from our legend, at least that maybe I'll catch you ve got the job done yet, but even the job that she was given is a little bit in question and also you know so as a little brief sidebar form, later. I believe after Matthew Pirie had wrapped up his business there there were russian ships. That also came so right around the same time. It's not especially impact

the story, but it it's interesting because it does kind of point out how it the domino very rapidly that Japan opened up to the U S trades and then there is a russian consulate almost immediately after that that opened as well. So it was such a hugely shifting time Japan. I mean immediately after having been a close country within five months. They were trading regularly with two other countries already major countries, here's the thing, saving money with Geico was almost better than playing pick up: basketball is always that guy who joined your game, He never passes the rock he. Instantly bricks theories and who can We have you and then put his hands up and say no foul, no foul with Geico it's easy to switch and save on car insurance. No need to fake an angel sprang because you're absolutely exhausted, so which in save with Geiger it's almost

Better than sports are yarn, were jobs more fun and if they are, then I was assigned to return here with me about your I'm looking for anyone and everyone who makes working out a blast. That's you! It's! A team altered outcome for transport awesome perks, like team altogether and more that's team alter at that time to end nobody's nursery opening his residence twenty one plus, if it'll routine, altered autonomous, and today we can apply to irresponsibly atypical abortion like use English Missouri, of Ici, though, did live with Harris who, as we mention, went on to become the? U S, counsel, for a time again, depending on the story three year three days The number three seems to be important pragmatism, pretty vast, different, greedy, vague difference for how long you lived with somebody

and then all sorts of versions of the legend of what she did. While she live with him right, there, she was some sort of half, then this is out Matic movie version of the tale to kill him under cover geisha gas, but ends up being loyal to image of savings. In other versions, she's sent to Harris by the shogunate as spies, though not somebody to to ease the thumb. This treaty negotiation at all that turned to see what the, U S, representatives were up to here, and there a great deal of debate and discrepancy in accounts of whether or not their relationship was consummated, she has been described as his lover as his housekeeper as his nurse, their people. That We ve that she served until the american conflict closed as, like the local dress for the consulates. I mean it.

It's all very. It goes from everything from I'd like a chaste, caring nurse to a prostitute Basically, I consulate prostitution in every version and between you know. Embellish at will, apparently, is how that one went through. However, version you like the best is the one you tell behind it. Is it's a very much easier on ending story, because it just gets even more out our two as it goes on YO after Harris left, Japan Loki, she was behind in this deserted the central focus of the legend that being laughed and then being a shunned woman. Somebody who was called Trojan kitty, so the mistress of a foreigner, the mistress of a barbarian, derogatory name for her

and he was basically ruin ruined flow from this association, whatever it might have ban with this foreigner and the stress of of being shy, by her the people she knew her, her home town led to a drinking. Other here, which are very serious and obviously her career to as a successful geisha with was not going to I didn't really just spark that back up now, because he really I mean no one would pay for heard too be in another. You know their hearty because she was no kind of Consent- trash at that point, it unfortunately fell She had a look for other. Eventually, in some reports and in the book we mention to tell a story of a start, a hair salon, business negation, of course, have the elaborate hairstyle ray.

Signify all sorts of things about about them to think Molly and Christian did an opinion on that some time ago. I enough stepmom ever told you, but that didn't go as planned. Turned out that the universe. Many women that she was hoping to draw with her knowledge were not the ones that wanted to go there, because she was again still seen in a dark light and sober clientele tended to be women avail repute, high class women in the town didn't wanna be seen, grounded in wanting to associate with her, which is really really but in the meantime we have to wonder what happened to her love, and so, he's never mention him again. They could just kind of jumped to how Okochee story ends. Butts others- and this happens in the book. They we're united for a time, but it's a

conflicted relationship initially when she meets him again. She almost doesn't want to be with him like she can't quite rap her mind around it, but then do strike of this relationship, but she's conflicted system we about dragging through Matthew and his business. He was very popular carpenter down with her grace in its very dramatic in its told in various very there are various levels of drama, but there is lots of drunkenness there're fights where they talk about her having hung onto the fact that he left in the first place when the whole deal with the car was going on, and you know it was really on a trajectory that they could never get to a positive place again. They both start to develop pretty heavy alcoholism issues, eventually to do what is best friend convinces her that if she really loves him, she has to leave him because he is he's not getting.

Anymore, because people don't want to be associated with her even peripheral win through him by His time is short year. Anyway, he died a year, Leader of a heart attack and we'll lived in Kyoto and Machinima for a time, the daily working as some sort of geisha in the darkest versions of the story, as a prostitute and finally did returned to Shimerda where she opened over surprise. She called it an show curl, but it didn't do well lost money due to poor management of key was not enough, state to run a business know how to create a lot of the time employees apparently stole from her ear, there's one story of an employee that is fairly conscience He's trying to tell her like people are stealing dont. You can

and she's just kind of two during the care, and so it turns that employ you were there like if she doesn't care, I'm just gonna start Zealand from the tail was well see, can see where that's not really a good way to run a business Eventually, though, there was a kind of change in sentiment about her own. Maybe we ve been too harsh, maybe she has been misjudged She was in debt by that point. Bearing of how her life turned out, and it didn't do much to help her at that so she die by suicide in eighteen. Ninety, two at the age of fifty one by drowning herself near shimerda. In the book to its on March twenty fifth, which is right, there is actually a frame the day we can talk about a little bit more and it's on a different day. The day in the book March. Twenty seventh manifesto festival actually happens in real life today and is TAT

is the day she died in the book. That's actually the day that local priest took pity on her, because no one claimed her body initially and after two days he just couldn't take it and he claimed her in and found a place for her in his temple to be buried. The legend, which is horrifying, fair legend, says he's at fifty wine. This tragic lay living with. American conflict for our council fur didn't. Take it him. He claimed her in and found a place for her in his temple to be buried and that's the legend which is horribly had thoroughly. Turning to historians, a lot of the details of that story are not true. At all I'm sure, that's apparent just from the discrepancies dramatic. She open these businesses, but we know one of the business is really the restaurant, because restaurant is still bear and in the very blame version that comes up among historians. Is it ok

and another young women were housekeepers for here is for a very short time and her down Spiralling life was not real, unrelated yeah, I mean there could have been a shadow cast on her reputation by things, but that it was not nearly as dramatic as is often told her story yeah. The major I can see that we told you to remember fire if it has to do with the timeline and the treaties, because, according to the legend she is clearly offered up as some sort of treaty bona yeah work out. The treaty, with the help of this young lady may was a talent. Asia doesn't matter, she's always only linked to Townsend Harris, and he actually did not get to Japan until eighteen. Fifty six, so here and even later when that treaty was happening, he did work on other treaties up along the way. As you know, shifting politics and trade needs were addressed.

Which is actually called the Harris Treaty of eighteen. Fifty eight much later after this whole story was unfolding in it. Because the treaty of Amity in Commerce- but he can have been offered a key to make, those initial talks go well she wasn't in Japan? He wasn't there. Yet he was doing other thing, more discrepancies on the nature of the relationship in a timeline where's. He was the first foreign lived on japanese soil here, but yeah where's We heard there's a one source. It says she was only there for three days and not even until may of eighteen, fifty seven so again, nowhere near when he was Treaties were happening when he first got there and then, I'm kind of grasses. May I read you should really be. Ok, though, we told you that one possibility was that a pc served as a nurse to Harris. That was the extent of their release,

there is a large monument in front of the main building of the temple. Commemorating the beginning of council being consumed in Japan here is supposedly was a big milk than he drank lotto milk, because he had authors and helped with them in a kind of in a roundabout way and supports the nurse story supports, maybe even the guy you needed and nerves and in the sort of novel ized history of her life. They do. There are instances where she is asked to go. Get more milk, these can't keep up with his need for milk, and she doesn't really wanna go out because the the villagers, like her, and they ve already started to show her and that she has to get milk for him in its very dramatic stuff, but yeah the Oliver's embellishments her really developed likely through gossiping rumour I mean we know it. You don't have to be in eighteen, fifty Japan of gas of there.

Lots of stories that happen in modern era. Grow so outlandish, bizarre that they can possibly be true, but people believe them. Certainly Okey story, even though it you know is in large part function. Not true were pretty sure it's very popular in its actually become a big. Thing: intermodal its memorialize throughout yeah merchant, so each souvenirs to tourists there, a tourist attractions built around her story. Could you, which is the the Temple where she was taken after she? Had asked and buried to succeed, sixth century temple, As we said, no one had claims of body and a priest. The new her family took pity on her arranged for her to be very there, and there is also a museum there of her possessions like Combs and some of her musical instruments and when she was a geisha but the way

this to me- is that her legend and I was unable to find out what version the legend, but her legend is related on a loudspeaker in both english the need for tourists has very clearly the legend loses all of its loudspeaker up here, If, if you're saying well, ok, she said to me that I might have had authors uses delivering milk it it's a strange thing to conceal Yes, if anybody has visited the site, we would love to hear more about what Fifthly, I over the loudspeaker what version of the legend, but the most touching part of the story, because I think that we can. We can assume that this part is true. Her beloved is varied with her there. Yes, again. I have seen pictures I haven't been by half pictures of their two sides, and they are side by side.

Is really no verification in any forces that I found that, yes, he is actually there or if it was just a monument erected, the idea is lovely regardless and then her restaurant is also a tourist destination. Now onto good is still a restaurant on the first floor, but part of the second floor, illegal Room is dedicated as an Apache museum there. I'll a lot of other key items on display at Gilchrist Energy, which is a buddhist temple that came the american Consulate in eighteen. Fifty six and Harris lived in the Temple for to making it a pretty I was heartily store where the american conflict in Japan began within the Temple yeah, so the Temple display pipes and dishes and other belongings of of Harris's, as well as life size figurine of yours in Turkey, and this was another one where, if you ve been there

like to have more information, about. While there is a time article about a worthy described, them is kind of gas like it's a really creepy, they Again, that's through one person's eyes. Other people may find them very touching and romantic here, seeing them it in person all messed up the nicest of this story. I think, although again, the date is a little strange, if, if this is the day they choose to commemorate when Kiki is honoured every year with a festival on March. Twenty seventh which is either the anniversary of her death or the anniversary that the priest claimed her body and took her back to the Temple yeah. So do you remember this woman and kind of become a symbol of how you know, people can be victimized the changing wines of culture Lehne assembler of that at that time. Yes, sir, there

through some film at emulation, Isabel there's one cup tis, you know Kiki, which it was very I believe that is made in the nineteen thirty ease and there's only four minutes of surviving footage, which is like a brief dance section. So it doesn't tell me the story. It's literally almost watching a documentary ever geisha performing but there is another movie in nineteen. Fifty eight called them. Green and the geisha in its actually starring John Wayne and japanese actress named, I got under an it film on location in Japan, which is a big deal in the movie, came out and its triggered by John Houston, who already had established a pretty spectacular career. At that point, I've got a thing: Maybe it's not what you think. It's very very interesting because, like if you look at the rotten tomatoes score, it's only like, I think it's fifty three percent, but then You look at it in Itunes, to restore like there's a lot of

we get reviews if it were some people are like. I think this is the great unsung role of John wanes career, but other critics will be aware. This was the biggest misstep of both John Wayne and John Houston, like it was just. It did not over wow, even though beautiful because it was set aside mounting Japan yeah and they really did Jason at that. Fifties to adjourn you didn't really bring the whole crew out to another country. At that point, I want it all the more of it, and then I couldn't help thinking just for John Wayne in his little his robes. It's like it's worth. It I couldn't help it think, though, that it the time for another adaptation of their yeah. It's such a compelling story. It does. So suitable perfection. I mean, maybe that's why? historical accounts of it seemed to be kinda pretty strongly with with fictional l,

yeah it it's one of those stories where the historical basis is great and it's a good kick off point that maybe more could happen. That is the perfect, giving a fear I will come. Let the idea basis by sheep isn't in the movie she is said, is an assassin and kind of moves into a spiral before she becomes. They become very. And of each other and fallen love, and it's very dramatic- and you know, really kills him leave her behind. I guess I'm, basically, Thing is finally that also tragic round me here I mean yeah and because there is so little actual documentation, it so easy for this to be even further embellished have added

go, go, go crazy. So, while sad, I think it is lovely that she has now been redeems in history. Again we don't know. The the value actuality of what happened, but as a symbol, she's really become very important to kind of recognised the just the ways in which people's lives are genuinely affected by current events- and you know when people become pawns, its drawing lives so good to have that were remembrance and have her honoured in the way that she is now at the festival, so sad story, but what sort of a happy coded to it? Yes, I pay Sonya ITALY's good too. A festival day. You have ever tragic at least you gonna. Furthermore, last of all in the long run, and maybe another movie

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to a train mechanic with years of experience, or do you take it to a celebrity, and why are you doing the same thing with your health? I'm Tom HOLLAND and I have a brand new podcast called thickness disruptive. A groundbreaking shielded deepens the most common exercising attrition miss once and for all with science, I'm an exercise physiologist with a masters degree and emphasise science and sports psychology, and I have, over thirty years experience in the fitness industry timing to weaken durrants athlete. Having completed twenty six, I may attract the lawns and over seventy marathons and ultra funds around. We will your interviews with the best in the business the talk doctors, nutrition is professional athletes and in each episode of fitness disrupted, I will give you actionable advice. They can begin to use right away, no more wasted time and money following bad advice was in a fitness disrupted at Apple pod, cast an eye heart radio app or wherever you listen upon cast

Ok, moving onto listener mail today, I thought I would please we'll now willing postcard. It is from Renate in Nominal and she to say Ladys. I took my grand tour of Europe before your pipe has started so now that I finally gone from, are interesting again. I didn't want to miss this opportunity to thank you, mail, I monetary on tripped China for college in events learning a ton about the dragon. Lady, if you visit the forbidden you can see her summer palace, which is amazing, a definite recommend a warmer month, because not only is there in January and apparently founded rather, Chile call for that's really club the Dragon Lady, with such a fund, to talk about. And I love it as I always when people are inspired to take a trip on the package and forbidden

these are my book. It was told- and now they have a Starbucks Sancho get together. Now, though, I think it was something he back office. I have to mention two things you guys know. I like the stamp international stand on the poster. This one has the court's stay out its bracket I mean no one alligators kind of settling the kind of cutaway affairs like a alligator whose resting his chin in a sleepy way on the other, allegories back his smiling at the reader. It's quite dear. So thank you. Thank you for choosing such a good stamp it and a beautiful postcard. Anna, lovely tired- and he had come. So if you would like to learn more about the topic we talk about today, you can go to a website

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