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First of all, if you ever wondered how your investments, insurance, taxes and retirement plans connect, you know that money it'd be complicated. So where can you get the bottom line on the latest topics and trends in personal finance? So you don't miss out on opportunities that could make your money work harder tune into edelman financial engines, everyday wealth, podcast hosted by jean Chatzky, a financial journalist, sl in new york times author with a unique ability to cut through the noise and simplify things every they was available wherever you get your broadcasts you at those two psychic powers and government conspiracies history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn stop. They don't want to a production of. I hope we,

hello. Welcome back to the show. My name is matt, my name is no. They called me bed and were joined, as always with our super producer, bald michigan control, deck and, most importantly, you are you- you are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't want. You to know today, His conversation is much more than a spoonful of sugar, but we should start out by say I do. I know when they're behind that sugar is amazing and a lot of the stuff about sugar that people don't know is frankly terrifying we ve all been there every few. it seems, for instance, a study comes out arguing for against some aspect of sugar consumption usually focused on a person's individual health and in the u s, as many people pointed out- it simply sugar is in almost everything and it's a mould. Billion dollar industry is fraught with injustice and

shouldn't. We are learning this today in a conversation with an expert in this stir being story, the journalist, the author, the creator of the new podcast big sugar, as well as by cast called freeway phantom Celeste huh. Please less! Thank you so much for joining us today. My pleasure just say no celeste, where I think we ve had this conversation before, but for the three coasts of this point cast, we listen to a lot of mp, are especially back in the day when we were working in book and weep its. We listen to you a lot, so it's very cool to have you with us. That's really kind, it's funny So my background is with public radio with georgia, public broadcasting- and I don't know if we ever interface directly, but I worked with a lot of the same folks that that you did back in the day, and I think we may have share a news call once again, broadcasting is easy.

it deceptively small there. I I try to tell people who are just coming into it like straight out of college. You know don't be mean to because I'm going be again and again and again, very true. So, let's go into it. As as we said you are a veteran journalist, prolific author, you have a hosting e p. Multiple present prestigious programs, like what retro report on pbs on second thought, of course, to take away, and more so for any fellow conspiracy. Real is tuning in saying, hey, that's it are you familiar voice now, there's a reason, you're feeling that so you ve you ve written books like we need it. how to have conversations that matter. Do nothing and, of course, speaking of race. Why everybody needs to talk about racism and how to do it. These are deep dives into the nature of communication connection and that's something

we start there because that's something that stands out to me, at least in big sugar beet, your diving deep into the history and end the troubling present of sugar industry, your examining aspects of it, that honestly, sugar companies, probably dont, want the public to know, but It's a humanness to it. You know, there's an it's so easy to for our minds to gloss over when we hear abstract stats and numbers I, but this show is very personal and it's very human. which sometimes love about it. So maybe we started that human moment was there something that initially inspired your journey into the disturbing. I'd of this industry, like you mention, you went sugar free for a time. you also said you know, for you learn sugar is never thing, but I'm just wondering was there like an aha moment, earn a epiphany yeah. I think so. Look ada. As you

I've been a journalist for a long time and I get that the average person does not have the time to Follow all the stories that these technically should write like everybody is never times. everything about all the chemicals that are in all all of our foods or the industries that are factors everyday. I totally understand that, but ever once in a while things, bubble up and become so urgent and important that it's time to pay attention and sugar is one of those like its time and for me, that's the thing that sort of came across my desk like I began when we started doing the interviews for this, and I started listening to the the stores of these cutters. These jamaican cutters would come over the urn and cut the sugar cane by hand infidel, if you're a listener of the show and this is a rural, brutal job. I mean

using machetes. I don't know how many people have ever actually put their hands on a cane of, and on sugar cane is thick. It is tough. It is it's like a piece of wood and to be sitting there whacking at the sugar cane all day long with this razor sharp machete they wear pieces of of chain mailed to try to put themselves at the same time. There still sometimes make mistakes, of course, and an cut themselves cut off pieces of their fingers and bodies and hurt themselves there in brutal heat in humidity, they barely get fed. Sometimes it is gonna a of rice on two here that this is what they were going through. To get is sugar, underwear tables, and then the sugar industry they sugar barons. EL stole their wages from them. Here I mean, that's, that's why I ice, which should have free, because I,

couldn't. I could I didn't want to eat it like I, I couldn't do it. I was like. I just lost his tail: for me it so interesting how he gets is one of the few crops. I guess there have indeed been a modernization to the way that its harvested there. There's really no magic bullet are like Can machinery that can do it, and you have to have this human aspect to it and then just a follow up. You know these, books that are coming from Jamaica, they're coming in from Jamaica, because the job So dangerous and difficult that that these companies can't find americans to do it, so they do they have agonized since this case this section suit in the united states, at least they now have mechanized the harvesting of cane. It is still hard by hand in many other places in the world. The reason they were

and you mean to do it by hand- is that they can that the human cutters can get as far to the ground as possible, meaning you get more of the cane rail pulling it out right exactly, but they still because it's cheaper. They still burn the cane feels when the high rest is over. Meaning is an ecological disaster. Every single year we went down to These came fields to experience it for ourselves. We parked in the parking lot of elementary school and they were burning the cane fields and as soon as we got out of the car, I was covered in this thick greasy ash and I looked to the the playground and all of the the plague toys in the merry go round and stuff were covered in this ash. Apocalyptic apocalyptic is it is. It looks like the beginning of terminator and

So they only did that here in the states because of that class action lawsuit were the cane cutters we're trying to get back the wages that bed were taken from them, so yeah it's it's just this. I mean to think that we need states. This is this is the way we brought these. These were it's over from jamaica to have them cut the shirt, and down from us- and this is the way we treat them like this- was their american experience, and this was the eightys and ninetys meaning that again and pat the past is far more recent. it looks in the rearview mirror I'd love to talk a little more about those were so one thing they really respect here is episode wine, a big sugar like from the jump, we're diving, into the stories and for people who are not familiar with the sugar industry in know other than like they're they're pack of domino sugar. They get the grocery store

for people are unfamiliar with how this is made its a harsh awakening leakage. You tell us a little bit about why king cutting is so often called the hardest job in a man. Erica, if alluded to some of this, like the medieval chain mail, the the the idea that these guys sometimes referred, a cane cutting is going to war. But what? What does the average You need to know about this profession as it was then yeah again. A stock of sugar cane is in incredibly thick like if you've ever had a piece of bamboo? Do you see like in your grocery store? If you get a little miss a ban boot, that's that's not what it looks like big bamboo. That may be and a bare snacks on either its thick would like is thick and hard and It takes like serious strength, they

it would in order to before these workers were given the go ahead to be too should be shipped to the united states to work here they were given. incredibly intrusive physical exams. They stripped them naked, they peered into every corner of their body to make sure that they were physically. Capable of doing so, and even then many of them did not make it through a season is brutal work because cutting this kane they would have, they would grab it with their with their arms and with the other arm. They would slash down with this machete to try to cut through when it takes power in your body. In order to make it through this cain and again it is a very hot and the leaves themselves these are they have these leafy fawns coming off there? They, the kind of slash and you will get those that in your arms little cuts in your I'm says you're going through the cane. It's it's planted very close together. If you ve ever been in a cool,

field. For example, you can get lost in a cornfield quite quite easily. It's very much the same thing just all day, long for hour after hour after hour, going down these rows of cane and just methodically grow, cain and cutting and grabbing a cannon cutting and throwing, and when I say throwing these these pains way, a lot is just And then you look at the dorms in which they were living and they work. I'm lost where's, I'm literally a writer and journalist, and have been for twenty five years, and I I don't even know how to describe the places- and we they were living in which sometimes the places where in which they were relieving themselves were holes in concrete, like slaves orders I mean, let's be daddy, I'm honest, I mean that's practically what it s all a little talk about what the way, what an the visual worker, perhaps thought they were getting into before. Are they left right before they left for jamaica itself,

When did like to me in the park, gas very similar to something we just covered fishermen in thailand. Where There are sometimes coerced onto a ship under false pretences of the jobs gonna be what their life's gonna be like. Just eight. job opportunity, right as it sold to workers, often only in this case with with again I'm using the names, power and fidel there like nicknames about when they went, told they're gonna go get this job in america to do thing what that was like verses when they actually arrived in palm beach and met for the first time the people in charge, you know, there's two different levels here, because the people that they are told that they're gonna be well. They are sold this. idea that they are going to be well to send home to their families real money and, at the time jamaica was desperately poor

I don't need to go into the colonial history of why jamaica was desperately poor. Most people, we aware of colonial history, probably know that so oh the money they thought they were going to be making under the each one in when visa was going to be well worth it on, regardless of what conditions they were going to be working under, so the people who were very first going those maybe this is there, for his the united states to work under these conditions- you're absolutely correct. Maybe they didn't we basically they were getting into. The thing was tat. They were people who went back again again and again, even though they knew what they were getting into because things were. Oh desperately poor in jamaica, that they continue to sacrifice. However, they would not tell their families when you read the letters that they were writing back home to the families. They didn't tell their families what they were enduring, often back in the united. days, does not want em to spend Their days worry

in you know what you're going to come back with all your fingers? Are you going to come back at all that's right and they would be constantly threatened that if they didn't work hard enough, if they didn't pick up the pace they would be deported because these employers had they a power to to send them back to jamaica, to make them not only lose their jobs but send them out of the country immediately thats. What that visa men, and so they were constantly in fear of being deported as the united states, but you know the money they were making here was still better than what they had backing jimmy at the time in the in the eightys and ninetys, and that's even minus the. What are we called the company store mentality right, like these guys are charge for transit, room and bored,

that comes out before they ever see a sense in a paycheck that actually goes to them, which, which could be doable other jobs do that so long as you can predict what you're actually being pay right. That's the key piece yeah you know no way to to say this for sure. I can't, as a journalist, confirm this but here is as though the payments was purposely obtuse it, confusing the way the things being paid. In other words, there was confusing system of worthy being paid by the time where they being paid by the hour, they were supposed to be paid by a certain. some under the visa system, but when you actually looked at their hourly sheets, it was being paid by a certain a different system and it was very, very difficult to understand how they were being paid and which

I explained this over the course of of the pot cast an and you can you get the sense of why lawyers who are representing them in the class actions suit were concerned that the judges wouldn't understand and- and why what kind of walking, through it step by step by step, to try to explain to the court and why they finally got to a jury. A kind of guided are all muddled up. The jury's didn't quite get. It under a visa programme. Might that are their different stipulations that maybe allow for a more vague system, of pay and the necessarily line up with we're laws for you as citizens, and as I don't know, I'm just curious what you know I mean they have to be paid a certain amount per hour. Somehow They found a loophole to make that job. They always made the holes and, in fact, in the end, the only way that we focus on one particular.

company was actually owned by the fund rules. The two brothers who originally took human brothers who fled to cuba. Castro took over in their family, lost everything. They were in normal fabulously rich in cuba, literally owned a palace there and awful, The united states are they He was sugar, and we focus on them because they were the ones that kept the the class action lawsuit going even when we suspect that their their legal fees exceed the amount that they would have had to pay the workers in back pay and they ended up having to rely on it and outdated law that dated back hundreds of years to light colonial america in order to in order to avoid having to pay back pay to the locked, the workers atrocious unclean,

can you tell us just about how that class action lawsuit began like who started it and how did it? How did you come to fruition? So there were some public interest, lawyers who had been representing immigrant workers, in taxes and other areas, and they got a tip from an anonymous person who who said you know these people are being underpaid, and you know was very, very difficult, even speak to the workers and He described how difficult it was to even get close to them. The sugar companies prevented you from even speaking to these workers even getting close to them in the fields. They would have security guards and escort you off of the of the property. If you even got close to the

arms and you couldn't even talk to them, and so it took quite a long time for them to eat. Get this case going, but they eventually were able to what they had to make a lot of trips to jamaica, to even get clients for this, and I just the shot out. One of my favorite bullets in some of these interviews you do is when, we learned that one of these lawyers he's he's very. Very steady and very like affable and not shaken by a lot of things that would terrify ordinary people. They could say on some kind of death threat, time, and he replies well, I thought tat right now- but I guess I can give you call- would back in that, while this is the guise of does refer to as the harvard idiot in texas,

cosmic and says: hey come down to my property, I need the I'm going to kill you want over us would have remained a pencil in chinatown. I can't make it and also the diamond. Forgive me blinking on the name, but the journalists that any kind of starch the story off huge guy has had a history as iraq, musician and various other kind of occupation. For he landed in journalism. He is told basically you're, never gonna talk to one of these people. You're, never gonna talk to a cane cutter and he does try me and then it is difficult, but you know by design, but he he eventually does. You know cut through and no pun intended there either, but how? How are they able to keep people from these workers? You know and keep them so isolated in a way that is, frankly, really does feel like slavery like having kept. human seen other their kept away from any one that could possibly help them. I mean

I gotta tell you even even we tried to even talk to do the either one of the fund who alfie and pepe fun who'll of of? U sugar and it just is so striking that if you have money in america, you don't have to answer questions ever about anything. That's the truth We have a long, montage thereof. How how hard we tried to talk to one of them. We tried then just running into them outside their building. We wait. I went to their home. I went to their yard we went to their building. We try to even just robbing off a letter at the front desk of their office. We couldn't even get to the receptionist yeah, If you, if you have money in america, you don't have to answer for the decisions you make or what you do, and this is what a stared this point for a second too, because the the

Incredibly sophisticated stonewalling here it does, like something out of a thriller novel for a lot of folks are listening, and you can say well this sounds a little larger than life. But if we voice- the document erin Stephanie and I like the journalists, they lose their work- in this field. There they're trying to talk with workers, as you said before, the before the legal case and the travelling to jamaica, and these got these folks. Yup having to resort basically to tradecraft. They have to pull some spy craft moves just to get in on the one thing that struck me, I really wouldn't to ask you about is our documentary and here is very explicit and very very certain that the sugar

companies use their influence to push law enforcement right, intimidate them and harass lohmann she's gotta keep picking up like she. Switching rental cars out, which is another spy move, did. Did you your team ever feel, unsafe or or threatened in your invest, the because it seems like these guys are not playing around so you're talking about stephanie black, who eventually made the documentary h to worker and yes, she was followed and she had to be very, very, very careful, We did not have that experience. No will say We knew that happened to her, and so we weren't, you know we didn't. We were already prepared, I mean, like we already knew going in that to take

take measures and we got in we got out. We we make short trips we made to day trips, you know burn burner. Phones that you go through Celeste. I didn't you know and you know I'm not met stephanie black iceland, Thirdly, a member sank after a long time. Envy are, you know, come at me. Try me, you will bring it on so I'd like to see see. Try so that it's a different world. You and end you know, to a certain extent, is the work of somebody like Stephanie. I can and Alec I can build on their work right that then you bring in somebody with who has a little bit more

standing that makes it possible to were then they are getting. That was somebody who has a little bit and not an equal power button? a bit more standing to wear nice, try buster more duncan, A your oppress a little bit more difficult to push around Of course, big sugar. We have. I hurt media. Thus we have imagined audio behind us like now, exactly a year ago we is. Is this value fear part of this at all, or is that just Marie brenner to fear publish the original article? the end. So and you know Marie brenner- is no joke right. I mean we're talking about a legendary journalist and so now absolutely nothing in that original article was not fact chest a billion times and absolutely.

Water, tat rock solid, haven't you know, including the very opening scene. I mean the opening just approve much power? These brothers have the fund will brothers, the opening Siena Marie brandished article is where bill Clinton is breaking up with monica lewinsky He is called her into the oval office to break up with her and the trees aid, calls him and says: there's a phone call for her, you and buildings. Says I'm doing something and he says it's off if on whom he says, That goal how powerful you guys are, and it just is there to show you the fact that for so many generations. Sugar has been operating under the cloak the shadow of darkness and men it'd, be leading our lives and this pocket. Like the title is the podcast is perfect. It is stuff they don't want to know about it.

So many ways. It is time it's a reckoning for the sugar, history it really is. You get into this in the pike has to adjust the idea of sugar as part of our diet and is the way then pushed on like children's cereals, and you know the marketing behind all of it. Let let alone all of the dark goings on behind the scenes and how it actually now comes to be in those products. I think a fascinating, and are you draw really interesting parallel between the history of slavery in our country and in those conditions that didn't change a hell of a lot like a lot of things. I you know, we sort of converted prison labour to what we were getting out of slave labour? You see a lot of these loopholes in american history. Can you talk a little bit about that and that parallel you kind of sea in know into that transition between doing a kind of through slave labour, the slave trade and then kind of figuring out a way around it, but basically keeping sick. I mean no, first of all

slavery always was about control of labour. You know racism was, invented in order to justify control of labour, not the other way around and so there is a direct line between sugar and slavery, and it is still wage slavery to today. You cannot separate the sugar on our table from slavery. Can't, and so it today today, with the ways in which we have initiated the public eye, and even if you look at the ways you know you you think about the end of the reckoning that came for tobacco. The reckoning that has come for the the pharmacy pharmaceutical industry in a small way in the ways that they have a manipulated, even science, and that happened in a certain way with like eugenics in the way

they manipulate things to you know, try to make it look like racism was justified scientifically. That was again to try to manipulate labour to say that sir Races were designed to labour right. That's connect sugar. They designed to stand in a field and culture your all day, but also in terms of the science of our food and the way we eat, you can even just go back to couple decades and look at them The baby nebulae that our sugar sighing science to say that it was not sure that was me listen that it was fat rail line you can find he's adds that say if sugar it makes you obese bees, then why are there so many skinny kids kids eat more? Surely that is called that life clear and now we know that there is good fat and there you know we have things like ito die and all other even adds that at that

sugar as a way to control your appetite. They said sugar might just the willpower you need to curb your appetite. They had sugar advertising sugar. As the quick energy you need exist, too much they had ever done sugar as a healthy way to eat less. They had advertise sugar as not dangerous to your teeth right so There are so many ways in which they have manipulated the the american public. They put sugar into literally everything you mentioned before that I tried to get sugar out of my diet. I I didn't have time for it, because it I had to end up making my own stuff, it's a second job yeah and I didn't have the money it became so expensive to try to buy all the specialty things that I needed in order to get rid of sugar. In every thing it's in everything

Nepal is for a word from our sponsor and then will return with Celeste headley in world where modern technologies rapidly reshaping our day to day lives. The new podcast technically speaking and intel podcast uncovers the remarkable ways. Tec is improving our livelihood across the glue brought to you by Ruby studios from my heart media, in partnership with intel. Technically speaking, is your passport to the forefront of a eyes, marvels and modern technology. Each episode take you on a riveting journey, as you discover the awe inspiring innovations of our modern world from game. Changing innovations, revolutionizing early cancer detection to ay. I software that the texts, pests on crops- that can be detrimental to seasonal yields, tune in four conversations that are shape in tomorrow today, listen to technically speaking and intel pardon asked on the I heard, radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

presents what cats want cats once Sheba. Perfect portions cuts in gravy too convenient servings of roasted chicken covered in savory gravy know what else cats want the red dot from your laser plainer on. Why, on the ceiling on the couch on the floor on a vase, by Sheba perfect portions cuts in gravy. Zero mess there are left overs snapped peel, serve shiva what cats one there is no magic spell or hidden she'd code delivering an active lifestyle. All you need is you you hit it out. The part before sliding into home bore here nothing but net game, waiting, three pointer being active, doesn't have to be a chore, make fun

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no matter where you are in life. If you have questions about how to make the most of your wealth tune into edelman financial engines every day wealth a podcast created to help you make smarter, more informed decisions about money, issue hosted by financial journalists and best selling new york times author jean chaskey in featuring different wealth planners each week, they'll share their stories and their expertise on a wide variety of financial topics, you'll get practical advice that help simplify the often complex and confusing world personal finance, everyday wealth available. Wherever you get your pockets and we're back, A celeste is thereof bay in the stuff. They don't want you to know of sugar. Is there like an alliance of some sort or a group like lobbying group or anything I mean the others, the trade industries. I mean, there's that there's a very

small number of sugar companies that make up the sugar industry, and there's the lobbying group for sugar, There was a response from that: the sugar trade group to our podcast, saying that you know this class actions suit, happened a long time ago and now they're very modernized, and they employ a lot of people. All those things are true. by, but if it's, if it's a group like that they are the ones, so I guess there individuals are, you said alfie was able to get built lean on the phone as an individual, powerful human being, but it does feel like if you ve got a group. That is making a lot of money subsidizing their products with you know we're super cheap labor, at least for a long time and with government funding right you can probably spend a lot more money. Lobbying I'm assuming that's what happens. I don't have that c d

to me. Just feels its Creepy thing that we talk about a lot on the show where a large group, a fairly small group in this instance, can wield so much power with law makers and even with the executive branch it do. You still got that sense yeah. I mean this is a small group of people, and let me tell you how bad of a deal this is for the united states taxpayer of it so bad that the cato institute call about referred to them as a cartel not surprisingly chirac like one like one. Well, anyway, we give billions of dollars tee to the: u s, sugar industry, to plant sugar. We pay them billions. to plant it to grow it as though it's not a profitable industry right like as though people when we have to prioritize it,

right, it's not like it's kale people are going to buy shimmer. You know you don't have to incentivize it, so we pay them billions to plant it. We buy them yards no sugar, is more expensive in the united states than pretty much every other wealthy nation in the world, while we're paying them billions. There we're paying more for the product in the grocery store, and they are there. And carrying out environmental disaster, sure. It's like burning down their fields and The environmental costs, on the other hand, for example the everglades ard, total rex probably gonna end up costs in the: u s, taxpayers another billions of not trillions, plus the climate change costs, so there's another cost as well, and then you come to the healthcare us, because when you cover towns in ash year

we're talking about a massive cost and then, of course there is the human cost so our concept of the consuming the product itself? Let's not forget me no more again, which again. So if you start hunting. This all up, it's a pretty bad deal wire. Well, it's a great deal for the sugar barons since there still about, but that's like one of the questions you know like how. How does this deal come to be? right, I mean like how are we to say enough is enough in the neighbouring countries in world war two, because we we're afraid that we were all bought in on the fact that sugar was unnecessary was needed for energy. That, especially for us, there's that they would need that that cheap energy burst in order to keep their energy going for all the athletic pino things that they were doing

ok, so they put all this money into the sugar industry. to subsidize it to make sure that we wouldn't ever have to rely on other countries in order to keep sugar in the united states. So that's how it started in world war two and it is just kept going because the sugar barons have continued greece to butter both sides, these bread, giving very liberally to both, though, publicans and the democrats to such an extent that it is has been seen as a sacred cow and so the american public just has to look, as we say in, as we say in the podcast, the the farm bill is just not a sixty piece of legislation. Don't pay any attention to this and that's really one of the major purposes of this podcast and it's why we brought it out this year, because the bill only comes up for reconsideration every five years and is up reconsideration right now and it's time it is time to

paying billions of dollars to people to grow this product? They were gone anyway and then pay for it again in a grocery store and pay for it again to them, the environment and pay for it again of the doctors office and pay for it again and again and again and again and again and again, I wonder if we were paying so much more the grocery store. Let's say I, like, I dont know exactly how much you know a certain amount of sugar costs right now, but if, if that was doubled, let's say or even tripled, I wonder if that would in like really have a ripple effect. the beneficial effect to people not using sugar as much at home and also would increase the price of meal highly sugared products there our giving asks whether you are giving us all heart disease and, as you, diabetes in fatty, liver disease and all these things I I dunno, I think you I sliced, I can act, see that working really well yeah,

Maybe so I mean the us has guaranteed sugar growers a price of sugar for a really really long time, they've guaranteed that they will get a certain price for sugar, and I mean yeah, I mean but look at this look at the look at the uproar when, when a bloomberg trying to put a sugar tax on solar, oh yeah, yeah. I remember that, the less tax didn't I didn't gibe with the public and there were several there were several pierre. firms more than willing to push back against Bloomberg, and they somehow had a lot of money to do it. Just yeah she's point yeah yeah these these, these ground, swell of consumer anger, about gesture we gonna do beside like. If we're not putting sugar and everything if we're taxing all the sugar, what are we going to use Aspartame out of wood airways heard

So we re, Jos, is comin out again say: hey guys, maybe Aspartame, not a great idea, and then FDA says now It's fine we're the ones who approved it. It's good. Have we gotta, we gotta call right the f D, a didn't reply until they checked in with some folks, just another same in the idea of a diet soda exists because it is an alternative to sugar analysis, I guess I also does get be diet side of them than we had two compared to that when we get to have for a treat it's so foundation early? You know entrenched and our culture, like with the colony cooking, shows baking shows all the stuff no one's going to stop using sugar and switch to me. It's like, I think, that gene is already out of the bottle. I don't want. You know what I will say this god thriving. I went without sugar, basically for six months and I will say that it was hard but We also say that, surprisingly it didn't taken.

Very long to certain, lose my taste for sugar and realise that pretty quick If you start realizing that you can suddenly taste the real taste of things yeah. That was what was it like when you had. When did you have anything that you ate like an months seven or something where you thought whoa? How much sugar is in this yeah, like? First of all, things that have sugar like beef jerky, like t t, does not need sugar things like bread. does bring in it there's all kinds of things chicken nuggets. yeah True sorry gets house in them, and sugar in I tell you in dressing, this there are so many things that have sugar in them and then you start taking them out you're like oh.

This tastes so much better when it's not so is always you use f bomb celeste delight like that, My my friends, you from other parts of the world, that's where their main complaints, they say. I by any bread in the? U s that isn't somehow also cake exactly when you start eating bread. It tastes, like I, don't know, bread, like it it's and I will say that that has lasted for me. Like a all my own dressings, I do my own bread, because, like what's but what about natural sugars, then there's natural sugars in fruits in things you in other ways to get a similar effect just buy in other natural. sugar that are contained within you,

I go yeah, of course, but in order to use those in your your baking and things, you have bye, it also in order to use in order to get those to use in your baking. You have to like track down these manufacturers who are not connected to this, like wage slavery, blah blah blah blah blah where there's like the company called wholesome that are like, as implied by the name not connected to this whole horrifying industry by them in the supply chain, you can really expensive. It is like the? U S, economy loses a billion dollars a year because of the? U s shoulder programme. a billion dollars a year and an Some economists estimate that the? U s sugar problem causes somewhere between seventeen thousand twenty thousand people to become unemployed on an annual basis. I go, that's where I understand is like

doesn't seem like we're in the business of losing a billion dollars a year. You know the government's pretty stingy for the most part when it comes to things like that, like, whereas this hostage situation taking place like where holding the gun to uncle SAM had that is forcing us to continue with this horrible deal that has occurred. The board horrible that it seems to be quantifiably bad, so Oh as you're, the title of your show implies this stuff don't want you to know. This is not how they presented here right. No politicians also don't read the fine print and that's now are they presented. They instead say this is how many people they employ, we're just farmers just an american farmers. We are, if you read the althea fund wool, heavy fund, more story, they are immigrants who made their way up through their own grit and there the

There are the classic american dream story. That's their story, that's good pr! You know we shall call pixel get that win made, but that's also that's also so intentionally so insidiously and purposely missile eating. You know, I'm really glad you mentioned the idea of the past, titians interacting with quote farm interest, because I Think a lot of americans are aware just how open monopolized that has become like every time you I hear a politician of any ideological stripe talk about, but you're working for small farmers. I have to try not to laugh, because what we need to realise is so many of those quotas. Boats. All farms were long ago, bought out by larger larger interests that have allowed away. to your point: they have a lot of weight to do you think part of the problem not just comes from Lake lay

you see in tradition and dependency from world war two, but could part of it be the rule. actively constrained all horizon of politicians like how you know it's it's politically. It's very difficult or a congress person, someone on a local level or even even the president honestly to please support his decision. That is not going a bear fruit, for you know within two to four years right so Is that part of it the time horizon? Does that make it tougher for them too to break the cycle? I'm maybe I mean perhaps I think, is more about the fact that politics, voters, homo sapiens always has an ever- will be more motivated by fear than positive feelings always has been and never will be,

that's our species and that's our neurology and that's how they make dollar works and therefore, please, commissioner, know that they can drum up voters by talking about americans and farmers and the threat to the american way, and and that's it they can get voters to pause, and they can, simplify everything down into very, very simple terms, and they don't have to talk about. The phosphorus run off sugar cane fields and how that is causing saw grass to completely overwhelmed the everglades and ruin the environment and how that fleet into climate change and how it's going to cost trillions of dollars to bat and how that's gonna fall on the than the most

honourable and has to pay for and how they don't have the money to pay for it and have that that's a result of inequality and blah blah. You mean you know, who is that and to explain all that and who cares is. Also another way of creating sugar by processing sugar beets, involve harvesting sugar cane in this brutal labour system, sugar is more environmentally friendly, not necessarily so that's not event it. I will say this: sugar production from the dutch beat sugar, which, I assume is what you mean does produce quite a bit less yo to an end. Those little fine particles into the air then came sugar. It also uses a lot less water. So, yes, Sugar is much more sustainable. Then cane sugar is it.

does it take less land? I'm not sure I don't know the incident yeah. I not I'm not sure, as I only bring it up because you'll you'll probably remember the story that was very big in georgia in the early aughts, the imperial sugar refinery explosion- That was a product of poor conditions here at home. You know where the stuff is being refined and created and put into the packages that we then find on the shelf. I believe upwards of a dozen people were killed, and then they were now hugely in injured if they weren't killed. There is hope: big story, because where I was covering at the time There was a big burn unit. The m at the medical college of georgia, which are outside the M there was a time called like augusta state versus the arizona medical facility associated with it. So a lot of those folks were, you know, sent there but died. I dunno, That was an isolated event or their other cases of refineries having unsafe,

decisions as well that you ve been. There are many of them. You know there are many of them. I mean where you know any time that you have that amount of particles going off into the air. Any time that you have. something that is a refinery which always means heat. which always means grinding, there's, there's gonna be unsafe conditions and any anytime that you have poorly paid workers and a lot of them. You know there's going to be danger, you know I mean I think that and knowing that, but any time that you have industries that are pushing for less regulation and you have a government bodies where they are. Severely understaffed, and that includes the government body that oversees agricultural production in the ets there's a lot of danger ok I'll, take a quick break. Your word from our sponsor and then jump right back in with Celeste in

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listen to this, what we hope people can take away from this show. Why is there we're all about empowerment right. So knowing problems of the sugar industry? Are there? Things are steps that you know? jane and John Q, public or whatever can take to help mitigate or address these injustices. I mean, I hope, the thing that people do is call their representative in their senator abundant, the thirsting for some foreign bills, reconsideration right now and it's time to take action. It only comes up fur reconsider As I said, every five years so I kept my watch. Your time is now and you're saying as it's written. Currently it should it. It is way too many dispensations from these big companies. It makes it way too easy for them to get around. You know if conditions in and you are pushing for, we

putting it in a way that would take them to task, or that would in some way improve things. So when we talk about how much money, how much is in the farm bill for you, a sugar, and we may talk about the fact that there is billions it for you, a sugar in the farm bill. Then, what we're talking about, billions in your money right for the. U S, sugared programme, assumption that that's your money, so you also here politicians say we don't have money to how whoa how's the whole, less when you say that we don't have money to force schools, to pay teachers more to pay firefighters more, we don't have money it to build new to resurface highways or build new bridges, but we have money to give billions. u s sugar and to all the fun who owns a got. That's worth, I think, over thirty years

forty million dollars, it's time to call. You representative, in your senator and is really important you'd, it's really boring. do it as an individual, whoever you are listening right now, because there are so many advocacy groups that are going to be a part of that farm. Bill fight against the things that probably in all of our best interest, yeah, exactly and you know your money, it's your money, It's your money, you like the? U should like the folks, we He recently did a panel with some folks about criminal justice reform and their research. While lawyers on the panel, whose job it is to to seek this kind of stuff, and they pointed out that these calls matter that that, if, if enough we'll call him and it makes some noise is going to change the conversation to some. Great, you are not powerless. Side is thing that is easy to feel overwhelmed and completely you now like,

hands are tied, but these things do do matter, and then they really do that agency that we all have listening. If you're the united states, that is arguably another thing they don't want you to know is that it does your voice does matter and others, there's really beautiful. My boy, you hear people in these advocacy groups, and Please say the sum like what you're saying Celeste, you know, eight might feel it might feel like You'Re- emptying an ocean with a bucket or spitting in the wind. When you are that one person making that one call, but if we move in moss that we are not one person right- and I haven't heard of no friend of mine, it used to be that way would say like you would you get one call right and then you get twelve calls and now something ass, the happen, especially if they all come in a close amount of time oh it is. It is at least in spain

or to know that we, the public are not powerless in this situation, even though we have been brainwashed cross generations, I would argue we ve been mouthwash high there to her that also listerine Helen two story for another day, but we should we should so we talk, we'd be remiss remiss if we did not mention another project, you have. You have helms and created that is of immense interests to every long MR of stuff. They don't want you to know so less. Could you tell us a bit about the freeway phantom him? Yes, speaking of things that you actually can do something about. I mean that's another thing. That is a message if the freeway phantom the freeway phantom is about the

the first serial killer in Washington dc that that we know of even though most people don't know about the freeway phantom and the reason we don't know about the freeway phantom is because she murdered black girls in a poor and low income. Neighborhoods, that's why people have never. Rid of him. He murdered as many people as a son of sam, and yet these were young. I mean as young as like ten and twelve years old black girls in and low and low income neighborhoods and middle income neighborhoods arm in washington d c in the early nineties seventies, he was never caught and the reason. I say that people could have changed. That is because, if, if

His murders had been given the attention that they deserved even at the time and if word had gotten out and they they maybe could have kept. Some of these girls safe. These girls were snatched off the street in broad daylight, as they walked a block, maybe two blocks away from their homes, in some cases, as they were walking to the grocery store. If, if parents had known these were not neglectful parents. These were not bad kids these, good, kids in their school jimmy uniforms in their own neighbourhoods, and these were lives that needed to matter and didn't, and they were forgotten. so this is one of the key reasons. Why not just for me but for the entire team at a tenderfoot tv and at my heart, This is why this is so personal for us, and so important for us is because

We need to even fifty years peter their names deserve to be said. And remembered it is important that these girls lives matter today as much as they did then, and that it means something that I understand why law enforcement every community and every media outlet needs to take these things seriously when it I'll disappears. When somebody disappears. That's important and it needs tension and it needs immediate attention within those first twenty four hours and there's that's. Every neighbourhood can take part in you know one of the things that the people talk about. Is that one of the ways that you keep everybody safe, especially children, is by getting to know your neighbors

earned their names, learn who lives in those homes. That's a tiny small thing that you can do to keep people safe just on your own street and someone we're talking about these little things that you can do. That's one thing that you can. Today stopless when you start listening near what and you're street and learn who lives in your neighborhood. Now easy piecie done and it might think about how that increases like. I don't the community value of just where you live like at being able the help your neighbor. If they need some help, maybe they will help you if you need some help, that's amazing one. That message also makes cooler too, because then you get into like block parties that you know You can hang out which I, like I love, hang anywhere, where I don't have to pay money to be there so day, vassal. That's a huge cool part of black parties for me and barbecues by I, They are also on

little bit more serious note about that. It does not help us lock anomalous occurrences much more quickly, right. You know your neighbors, you know when someone's a stranger and then that's not a you, know inculcate paranoia in every one. But it is it's a form of being aware of your surroundings and less that also what a book and because that also goes back to severe your long standing work about human connection and communication with people. I have to say listening to listen to we ve entered the deal Purely aiding thing is just as you describe. but I mean the day. I don't know if you could say law enforcement drop the ball because

That would be like saying they picked it up in the first place. You know to what extent they worked hard. I mean I went through the boxes of evidence that they interviewed hundreds of people, they followed they did they followed leads. That is actually the case, but they also immediately made assumptions that these parents were neglectful they It really made assumptions that these twelve year old girls, have run away with their boyfriends. They made comments about these girls being were wearing provocative clothing when they were in their school. Jimmy uniforms so yeah, They dropped the ball yeah. They also took these girls lives lightly because they were black because they were living in poor neighborhoods made assumptions about them, and then they immediately got distracted by the vietnam protests, which were a bunch of idle again, I'm not sure,

stereotyped, but for the most part they were of a whole lot of, it'll class college. His protest in the war, which is important. It was absolutely important, but it also took probably needed attention away from these girls lives who had been murdered and again he kept killing. and if they have gotten the attention and resources that they needed, they might have saved the girls who's got killed. Like and later and later and later, they could have caught the sky and prevented him from killing get more girls? And this is it? Wouldn't this story wouldn't be important. We wouldn't be doing this podcast today. If this work still be still was, this worked still opening yes. Now, let's, let's start because I think, goes back to community in its a parallel full disclosure, I'm an e on freeway phantom brow, but it's a

although I saw with atlanta monster in the cases where the latter missing and murdered where there's a distress of those who are supposed to be taking protecting your community right, a complete distrust so that wins. Even if somebody knows something and was an eye witness to a child being abducted is highly unlikely that that person is going to come forward and actually speak with a police officer and give that story, because there's trust between that individual and that institution d, it feels to me like. That is still a major issue. What what? What have you found? Celeste yeah? I think that's also the case- and I forgive me met me- I'd forgotten now how much they reward is up to now. It is now a three hundred thousand dollars because it was matched now by heart and tender footing rain. So the reason for that

is because we know for sure, because we did the interviews of members of the community. We know that they did not tell the police things we no. They didn't talk to the police. In some cases we know they were forthcoming with the police, and so We know somebody knows something and that person may still fifty years on be alive We also know that they may not still be in Washington DC, which is why so important that this package be heard, as many people as possible over the country. Maybe it's persons living oregon now, maybe living somewhere else entirely and we want them to near the gas and coal and get in touch. because somebody knows something and then, realized. That piece of information may be exactly the piece of information that could bring closure to these families, and so that's why the reward has been doubled because these

Families deserve to know what happened to their daughters. They deserve to know you know, I mean how horrible to not only lose your daughters this way and have their bodies guarded like garbage on the side of a road, but then to not actually have answers about who why what happened to them You know and have so little invested into getting those answers that fit two years on. They still have have no resolution, and so that's why the production, companies double that reward is because we know somebody knows something and it's worth trying its worth its worth. Agreed and that's- maybe that's the message that we take with us at the clothes our conversation today. It is possible to make a difference as an end of it

and it's not only possible, but it is one the best and most noble things. A person can attempt to do so. We want to thank you again, less for all work bringing this injustice to lie. You know these shows are coming out back to back to back. So I can Only imagine what craig two pandemonium. Your calendar looks like in you may time for us and all our fellow conspiracy realists where people, go to or more not just about big sugar, not just about freeway phantom, but all your many other projects, I mean,

for them mean united. I got her shoes, I have a website, but because it's only me updating, it is very regularly updated, but yeah the old and the new social media, most likely update, is instagram, which is mostly pictures that my dog and indeed interim twitter, but will see how long it takes to lead. Clothes pressure and listen to big sugar and freeway fan, you can find them wherever you get your pod casts or your favorite shows, I really like Listen to them now, freeway phantom, I think in this moment, when your hearing this episode, you can listen to every episode of freeway phantom

as well as some of the bonus episodes that are coming in one of which I just dropped this week. I believe that would be. I already want to give the title cause we're not going to spoil but yes, thank you so much less. We can't wait to learn more about big grand issues, hoping we can make a difference here. My pleasure thanks for heavily this. Was such a fantastic congress. asian guys, knowing when a lot of places and for everybody list, even though we talked in depth about big sugar industry, during industry there is so much more in the show. You really should check it out. definitely and also check out freeway phantom, because there's It's why story that takes a lot of different places and there's a new profile of the killer inside that show in his worth your time and were also

I guess, since in full disclosure, as you said, matt- u e p, your foot, shows unclear freeway phantom, but we also do you might hear some familiar voices, cameo aid, well, the things all of us are sudden. All of us fans think that's right, yeah! It's a pleasure to work on and a real pleasure to talk to Selassie been a big fan of hers as we all for quite some time, really, even uniquely talented journalist and storyteller, and really generous with return today. So we thank her specifically. Thank you for tuning in you wanna. yet at us all mine, you can do so. We exist at the hammer, conspiracy, stuff on twitter and youtube and facebook conspiracy, some show on instagram and tiktok. If you'd like to all us with some thoughts you can. Our number is one eight three, three s tea. d, w whitey k you ve got three. It's it's voicemail, giving

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