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Back when I was a prosecutor, I tried and supervised cases where, at the end of closing arguments to the jury, I was confident the jury way convict and I wound up bitterly disappointed example when I try John Gaudy Junior, I thought we had him after I made my closing argument to the jury. Grumpy old School New York, tabloid reporter walked, to me in the men's room any said you crush that. I think you guys got him got himself later set on sixty minutes that he thought we had him or guess what that jury hung. No conviction and I also had trials where I had no idea what the jury would do or worry that they might even acquit, find the defendant not guilty, and I ended up pleasantly surprised at a conviction. Here's the point. Anyone who tries to predict what will happen

The trial of Derek Chauvelin for the murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis is just kidding themselves and you nobody who's ever actually try to case would I'm out and make a bold prediction about what the jury I'll do about what the outcome will be. Goes, even more. So in a case involving a cop and multiply that certainty again in a case like this one that involves race, and this one surely does juries are, after all, just collections of human beings, brought together by pure circumstance to sit together, would box and render judgment and human Things are nothing if not unpredictable. Mercurial could not guessing what any one person. One stranger who you dont know will do never mind twelve of them, thrown together by fate. So now here we are on the press: best of one of the most important trials in this country's history. and I truly do not think that overstatement people

Be reading about this and studying it generations from now, so here's my preview from the perspective of an expert as criminal trials lawyer of what to watch for, in the Chauvelin trial. First of all, the jury. Now, in any case, your We composition, the demographics are subject to really a few main factors. Of course you have to start with the population of the county itself. Now Hennepin County, where this case is being tried, has just over thirteen percent african american population. There is an element of random this who happens to get called for particular case who gets that jury notice in the mail, its largely lock of the draw. What order the number get called when their selecting a jury. Also, the lawyers use some strategy about

to exercise their jury strikes which enable them to remove certain jurors. Now the law says the lawyers cannot use those strikes on the basis of race, though lawyers do sometimes pushed the limits and get into grey area. What's interesting in this trial to me is that both parties, the prosecution in the defence left some of their strikes on the table unused the defence had eighteen strikes, they had the ability to remove eighteen jurors they didn't like, but they only used fourteen saying that the prosecution they had ten strikes. They only used aid. That's fairly unusual. There were times when I was Tryin cases where you would leave a strike or two on use, but it suggests to me that both sides are satisfied with the jury, as is, and as it turns out this Jury is actually significantly more rationally.

than Hennepin County itself by a good amount. Now we have fifteen jurors total. Only twelve of them will actually decide the case. The last three are alternates they get plugged in only if someone get sick or has to leave the jury for some unforeseen reason. All of those alternates are white among the twelve jurors who will decide this case. Three of them are black men. One is a black woman and Two of them are mixed race, women that is based on the self identification of the jurors that they made in court. So if you do the math here, four of the twelve jurors are black. That's thirty! Three percent and six of the twelve half are either black or mixed race. I know I know it's a bit. Crass to get up. you later and Polly up racial composition of the jury, but does it matter you bet it matters to the ultimate verdict, maybe I mean. I wouldn't casually assume that any Jura will vote anyway because of his or her race, but to the public's confidence in the legitimacy and the fair. of this trial and the verdict absolutely and, in my view,

It's a very good thing that we ended up with a jury. is more racially diverse than Hennepin County itself, because imagine the opposite scenario: amount if you had a jury with zero or one lecturers, that could absolutely happen in a county with only thirteen per an african american population. In that scenario, we'd have real problem with public confidence in the legitimacy of this verdict, and that solutely matters here. Second, what is the prosecution's in here? Let's start with the bottom line, what do prosecutors have to prove now? There are three counts in this case: let's take him from most to least serious most serious charges of second degree. Murder prosecutors have to prove that shelving in ten, Willie assaulted, Floyd, causing his death there's a forty year max on that the middle charge is a third degree murder charge depraved mind, murder, and that essentially means Chopin did something that he knew was so wildly dangerous

threatening to human life, and he did it anyway. That count carries a twenty five year MAX and then the lowest is a manslaughter charge, which means Derek Chopin acted. we urgently without due care towards George Floyd. That only carries a ten year maximum. Now I want to be clear. The jury will consider and vote on each count separately. They can convict on all three counts they can can make on two of the three one of the three or none of them and, of course the jury needs to be unanimous. It has to be twelve zero to convict twelve zero to acquire Anything in between is a home jury. Now, technically that sort of a tie or a draw. The prosecutors can lead to retry the case a second time, but practically it's a loss for the prosecution. It's a win for the defense, believe me. I've had Hungary's, including the gotta case. Prosecutors are miserable,

when you get to Hungary, the defence is overjoyed those sometimes it short lived if the prosecution decides to do the case again, the prosecution case exhibit a is going to be that bystander, cellphone video we ve all seen it. It speaks for itself the ape man in forty six seconds, the interminable amount of time that direct Chauvelin knelt on the neck of George Floyd and I have to say it feels a little insufficient to you that phrasing knelt on the neck. People say to really what their children did was paid. His entire body weight through Disney on George Floyd's neck, eight hundred and forty six, I mean eight hundred and forty six isn't awful long time. Try this one out. If you want to get a sense of it and your stopwatch on your phone just turn off two seconds sit there for fifty two seconds, see how long that is see how long that feels. Well, guess what you're one slash, ten of the way to eight minutes and forty six seconds and count on the prosecution, doing something

like this in front of the jury by the way to illustrate just how long a time that is, who else could we hear for what other evidence? What other witnesses? I think we'll hear from some of those by stand cells, the people who took that video and were assembled on the sidewalk yelling at the cop you remember the video yelling at Jovan to get off to show some mercy. He can't breathe. That kind of thing we're going to see. Their videos, their other surveillance, videos, body camera videos. Some of them show that a key points- George Lloyd, was not resisting, was not struggling with the cops. Others show that, if other times he was and we'll talk about that in a moment. In the defence case, we also worry Testimony I believe, from at one may be to medical examiners it. This is a bit confusing because there are two different reports here: first, the Hennepin County medical Examiner, the Facial medical examiner for the county concluded that Floyd's death was caused by essentially a heart attack

brought on by the officers knee to George Floyd's neck, but George Floyd's family hired an independent outside medical examiner, and he concluded that the cause of death was asphyxia in from sustain pressure, meaning essentially that Derek Chauvelin choked out at sixty aided George Floyd. Now, if you're the prosecution, it's not great to have different versions, but both of them Lay blame on Derek Jovan for George Floyd's death, two different extends either one enough to convict. You will almost certainly not here from direct Chauvelin himself like any defendant. He has a fifth amendment right again self in current Asian. This is what the cops mean when they say you have the right to remain silent. Anything you say, can and will be used against you in court. Any defendant can choose to testify typically it's very risky to do so. He almost certainly won't testify here, also you

almost certainly will not hear from the three other former officers who were also charged in George Floyd's death. They also have their fifth amendment rights. They have a trial coming up later in this summer. Now, third, the defences: what will Derek chauvinist defence be now keep in mind in any criminal trial? The defendant doesn't have to do anything at all. Sometimes defendants can do just sit back and say the prosecution has not met its burden of proving this case beyond reasonable. Doubt, in fact, defended. Don't actually even need to make an opening argument. In fact, when you watch tv. Usually, what happens is the prosecutor gets up. First makes the opening argument to the jury, and then the defence lawyer stands right up and makes his opening argument. That's often it happens in real life, but it doesn't have to the defence actually has the option of essentially deferring and saying we're not going to open right now, we're gonna wait till there,

their case, then we're gonna open or maybe we're not even then open at all. Now I expect to see too primary lines of defence. Here, the first one is causation. The argument is gonna, be they. The prosecution cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that Derek Chauvelin caused George Floyd's death, they're gonna use those too somewhat conflicting medical examiner reports are going argue there not entirely consistent with one another, and what it looks like the defence is going to argue is that George Floyd, essentially overdose now Floyd did have drugs in a system at the time of the death. That's confirmed by the toxic oh gee, which is just the lab report on what was in his blood. He had met amphetamine and sentinel in his blood, but it's not an easy argument for the defense. Let's just start with plain common sense: didn't there are chosen a grown man, putting his entire body weight on George Floyd net for eight minutes, and forty six seconds have something to do with it. I mean: is it just a coincidence that Floyd

happened to overdosing die, while under opens knee and Chauvelin had nothing to do with it. The other day that we're gonna hear, I believe, is that when used reasonable force, or at least not unlawfully excessive force to subdue George Lloyd and take him into that he now the various videos around the arrest before the arrest show that George Flood was compliant at times. He listened to the cops he obeyed, but he also struggled with them at other, here's the problem, though, for that line of defence really not about what happened in the lead up to those eight forty, six where Chauvelin had his knee on the neck. All that stuff really isn't that point. It's really about what direction did after he had George Floyd Rear

and coughed lying face down on the ground and then put his knee on George Floyd's. Now all this stuff that led up to that will be part of this trial. But really, if, on the prosecutor, I'm saying what matters is happen once Derek Jovan put his knee on George Voice Neck, that's where he killed them. That's where he made the decision. That's what matters that's gonna be tough to defend, so the trial starts today with at least the prosecutions opening statement. The stakes are forget about high. The stakes are societal. Their sis I make in the narrowest sense. The verdict will determine the fate of Derek chauvinist, the individual, but we all know that it's also about much much more than that. So stay with me throughout the trial will be following it here on third degree and breaking it down for you as it unfolds, and please keep on sending us your thoughts. Your comments, your questions to letters

a dot com. I hope you enjoy this episode of third degree with Ellie holding to hear future episodes. Just search for thirty where every or listening now and subscribe for free third degree, as presented by Cathy Studios, your home, is Ellie honing. The executive producer is tomorrow separate. The senior producer is Adam wallet. The technical director David TAT, ashore, the audio and music producer is nap wiener and the cafe team is Matthew. Billy, EVA Car, Lander, SAM Oser State no other lie gate, Kaplan, Jeff Iman, Chris boiling shawl, and Margo Maui.