From CAFE and the Vocs media pack has network, welcome to stay tuned on preparing the culture has changed. America has changed what the standards are, what lines can't be crossed his change and Richard Nixon as bad as he was in so many ways was still situations and that just doesn't exist. With this present day republican Party Kurt Anderson he's the host of the new public radio exchange. Podcast at war. Anderson is a veteran chronicler of american power and politics, In the nineteen eighties, he found it. Influential spy magazine where he was an early critic of Donald Trump for twenty years did the taste, making radio show studio three sixty and recently he's written two books. That is land and evil geniuses, which dissect roots of our nations current problems with truth, money and extremism.

Anderson and I discuss present Nixon's fragile psyche and the lesson our own leaders can learn from his mistakes. We also break down the state of modern media. Can the shifting relationship between the New York Times and in iconic expletive and just to know. We do use that expletive towards the very end of the show, so lizards russian Tis advised that's coming up stay tuned. Restaurant delivery apps have made it possible for many of us to order pretty much anything. We want he with the click of a but but at what cost, I'm amygdala post of the latest season of land of the giants. It's called delivery wars and we're going deep, a third party restaurant delivery. companies like doored ash enumerates, have changed the way we eat All episodes are fallow land of it.

wherever you get your purchases from Rico Eater, the Vocs media, Pakistan. It's time for some listen requested. This question comes at an email from Jeff who writes. I saw Andrew Cuomo question is weakened by investigators in Manhattan. How it Investigator, go about conducting a sensitive high stakes, investigation like this one. When can we expect that the investigation will conclude and there will be a report on commerce conduct? now, of course, to have your talking about an investigation is being conducted as to act. nations regarding Andrew Comas alleged sexual misconduct, sexual harassment in the world as governor of the state of New York as many I also know that in essence, is being led by your estate attorney General Latisha, James Tis, James, who was appointed as our council, including my six, further use, attorney's office and old friend June camp and a leading employment lawyer and Clark

investigating the matter so is about. question you ask: how do you go about conducting a sensitive high stakes? Investigational the to individuals and their teams have not experienced doing that because, most importantly, you have to be meticulous. You have to be thorough, you have to talk to everyone you can think of. Sometimes you have to interview people for hours. You look a document to look for corroborating evidence and I think that Andrew Cuomo was himself interviewed over the weekend as it has been reported. I have no personal knowledge of that indicates that in all likelihood the probe is nearing its end. In my speech In my experience, overlaps with June Kim's experience, you interview as many people as you can. You can as may documents in communications as you can drink. Of course, your inquiry and then you ll the final subject for the end: that's what happened before the case against Hillary Clinton was closed as Jim Commie made clear a few years. That's what happens in most investigations of this nature. You get as much information you can about the alleged conduct of the subject, and then the subject is willing.

In our view that person- so I don't know how long it will take them to write up their findings. My guess and again I have no personal knowledge, probably in the coming weeks, not months. Work also predict based on my understanding of the professionalism of Kim and Clark, is that the report will be found based Professional, it will be without innuendo, it'll, be a cold. Look at the facts. Mentioning corroboration has any dismissing some allegations that may have been reported if there is no evidence to support them and the report will speak for itself. So I. the report to be honest and accurate piece of work, in contrast, say to a certain doktor report, using on death I got an email from Christie on a related point. She write typewriter, I saw your name tied up in the noose around the corner investigation in some rumours that you're going to run for governor any truth to any of that

crazy. I you asking a question because you may have seen a story on page six in the new post, the headline of witches quote governor almost team, promotes fishy story about Pre Perreira as smokescreen. End quote, so this gets more complicated and I should explain, but let me begin by taking a step back. As you know, As I have said many times, people don't like to be, investigate it. People don't like to be prosecuted, I've, never gotten flowers or travellers from people that I've investigated over the years and Andrew Cuomo in my experience, is a poster child, for this purpose vision, he's engaged in conduct over the course of time, not even not just with respect to this investigation that we just talked about, but prior investigations as well. He seems to be scared of all come out. He has adopted the strategy. The lot of other people adopted, maybe will sound familiar to you, given the prior and that is one way to undermine an investigation. is to undermine the investigators undermine the press. Peters and suggest

even without any evidence at all, then invest. The Asian or probe is political in some way or to coin a phrase is a witch hunt that sound familiar? How do I get tired of dollars? It's kind of bizarre Frankly. At the end of last week, I was told by Rapporteur that the Cuomo Camp, it was very clear that it was a Cuomo camp. Was trying to put at word and get it reported I was meeting with party leaders in the Democratic Party in the state of New York, because it was very interesting in challenging Andrew Cuomo in the primary for governor next year and the first I was confused two why that would be said, because it's not true a meeting with anybody in applying to run for governor next year, and anyone who knows me knows that it gets suggested to me from time to time and is very flattering. But that is not my plan. I'm sticking with what I'm doing right now Appreciate that so I wanted will. Why would it be that of all people, Andrew COM, would be suggesting to folks than I or someone else would be a primary challenge to him and his became clear when I was talking to them.

Or they wanted to be able to argue the Como camp that because June cameras doing investigation with respect to sexual harassment allegations because, he has been a friend of mine for a long time. He would be intentionally trying to make it worse. For Andrew Cuomo goes. The lodge I guess so that I would have an easier time in the primary. Demented, if you ask me, doesn't make any sense, but if it's part of a pattern gather the common people had been doing is clearing without evidence, it Tis James, the attorney general, by the way, the person to whom Andrew Cuomo for the matter. When it wasn't going away, his people are now claiming she also is trying to slam Andrew Cuomo because she wants to run for it. There's no evidence that she wants to hunt for governor He has not strategies running for governor and people. Frowned Andrew Cuomo dating blithely that she is why, undermine whatever comes out in the investigation, which is a tactic used by among other people, Donald Trump and by the way, for what it's worth.

Based on my experience over a number of years in the state of New York and as you will return, There is no way on earth the people around Andrew Cuomo spokespeople allies, those being on the record if the record are making any of these statements, putting the lies about me, but the direct approval and or direction of Andrew Como himself that you can take to the bank to dust The point Andrew COM on the people around him should do that which he himself said folk should do when he's alligator of sexual harassment first arose, and that is let's wait for the report, and I bet it will. For itself question comes in an email from Maria. Do ask what you make it the indictment of Thomas Barrack, the chair, trumps inaugural too. It is: alleged crimes, implicate Trump himself, Atomic of course, has been a very long time. Associate and friend of Donald Trump he's reportedly a billion year in its own right he's in business with shared

here in parliament afford and, of course, prominently in recent years. He served as the chair, Adele trumps Inauguration Committee, Tom Barrack and some other folks are facing serious federal felony charges, chief among them failure to register as a foreign. Because they were doing work for a foreign power, namely the Arab Emirates through you. I e there charges of attraction of justice and making false statements as talked about for many years now on. The show is a federal crime. Adding any time that you are the subject of charges by the federal government. It serious iii to the council, Seven total against Homeric carries a penalty of a maximum of five years in prison. That's series. I think there are other notable things about it: number, one that the conduct in the case and the answer to the investigation occurred. Not when this admission. And was in office, but went our trump was a president and I'll trumps. Own appointees ran the use attorneys offices in red

Justice Department. So when there's a debate about whether this is a witch hunt or political, I think that's an important fact to keep in mind it's a long and diamond what we call speaking diamonds. Forty six pages there a lot of details in a lot of allegations that the government Have to put into the indictment but to the east but they did to accept that improve the facts at the sight and there's a lot of direct quotation of communications between Tom Barracks and officials at the? U N E. I think it too serious case for him, because it strong It alleges, among other things, that the Euro III officials basically directing Tom Barrack to do various things up to and including insert, a passage. They pray approved into a speech that was gonna, be given by Donald Trump. They had conversations who do you, I wanted to be the less ambassador to the EU, I E and Tom Barrack is heard saying that he would help them without process that goes to the heart of the allegations are than ever to effect and change in shape american foreign policy in favour of the way without having registered as an aid.

to do so with the Department of Justice, which is pretty easy thing to do, and then you have the nations of lying in obstructing justice and allow People like to say the cover up can be worsened the crime. The way I think about it is the cover up. His It helps to prove the underlying crime, the lying in, AIDS, that he knew and was conscious of the fact that he was committing crimes before there was something wrong with his conduct. He lied poured into the indictment. that, whether or not he been directed to do anything by the USA, he lied about whether or not he had a dedicated telephone, with a messaging up on it with which to communicate with you at your officials, and he also denied and lied about whether not he tried to facilitate contact between the, U N E officials and the White House, those charges and the failure to register charges. I think mutually reinforcing, Therefore, I think he's in Trouble Marie. You also ask if any this implicates Trump himself would not in this indictment, fairly clear from the and I think from other things that had been indicated from the Department of Justice that this

all about Tom Barrack and his co defendants- and he was running. This- were surreptitious influence game without the knowledge of Canada, Trump or president from or any one else. Now, people asked the question: will he flip even if these counts don't have anything to do with I'll drop Tom Barricade. He flipped on the former president and based, the president's we ve seen. I don't think it's likely. I think that, obviously it is known. This has been going on the line it is alleged that with telling occurred when he was interviewed by FBI agents back and twenty nineteen so here is lorries of illnesses coming. Presumably, his lawyers have had some conversations with prosecutors in the eastern District of New York, which brought the case about potentially cooperating just like Alan Weissenburg CFO, the Trump Organization Tom Barrack chose not to do that is always possible to some information he can substantially assist with in the future. But given the nature, charges, given his long standing loyalty to Donald Trump and given the fact that

prosecutors went ahead with charging him rather than announcing a guilty playing a cooperation agreement that I, for one at least, think the likely to cooperation is low but statehood, stay tuned, there's more coming up after this if you want an e commerce business? This add my change, everything for you and that's not something I say all the time. Ok, but if you ve ever scrolled whist play through incredible marketing emails and texts for major brands and wondered quietly allowed. What sort of magic duster these guys sprinkling over their community visions, I'm gonna, let you in on a major secret. They probably use clavijo Clavijo too the mystery out of email and sms marketing, offering all you marketers entrepreneurs and creators out there, the data

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by something more than a set of double a batteries. What if it actually cared Well then, it would be simply safe, safe is an award winning home security system and shore. It uses the latest technology. You need to keep your family safe. But what really said simply safer part is its people highly trained security experts who are always there and ready to help if an alarm goes off a real person, I'll, be there over the phone to make sure you're, ok and if an emergency does happen, that person will send fire and police responders to your front door right away plus simply saves exports. favourable to chat twenty four hours a day seven days a week, even if you just need help setting up your system. The bottom line is this simply save. Has your back with a team of real people who care

It's one of the many reasons he was news recently called simply saved the best home security of twenty twenty want to find out have simply safe can help. Make you feel safe and secure at home visit simply save dot com. slash preach today to customize your system and get a free security camera that simply saved our com slashed breed today. My this week is Kurt Anderson, he's the host of the new seven part history, Podcast Nixon at or what Is archival, audio and audio and with unique with to make sense of President Nixon's tragic mishandling of domestic descent and foreign conflict the final episode of the past is out this coming Monday curtain. Talk about why Nixon story still matters in what is far from grace can tell us about the current state of american politics. Kurt Anderson welcome to the show glad to have you such a pleasure

so in some ways you're in the category of favorite kind of guest, because you are or purports to be a a fan and listener of cafe back Ass, including coffee insider buck, so that you can check? I said that because I knew I dont you actually. get. The list, should look at the list and see and see what kinds of people were actually Describing that simply cannot thing to do. It would be. But yes, I am, I am a fan and in the other not listened to the pod cast based on your book, I have read the book. Will thanks for doing that, So you have a new podcast series that is under way, and people can listen to called Nixon at war, but before I get to the podcast itself. Since I have you and since you become some of an ex an expert in connection with doing this broadcasting and other things that you have explored and written about.

Captain we target generally. That makes them for a moment what kind of perils withdraw to the current day yeah, how good a politician, just as a raw strategic, tactical, smart, intuitive, calculating Powell, How good a politician who see he was an amazingly great politician for the american circumstance of the second half of the twentieth century. You know he was I'm an end. He what he was not famously and obviously is losing the presidency to John F Kennedy. One thousand nine hundred and sixty is attributed to the fact that he wasn't so great on television. So, apart from that, he was a fantastic. was not a natural politician who loved to do the retail part of it. He was run television, which became obviously more more important part of the thing his career, went on and afterward, but in terms of the brain

maybe you don't you think television being good television is an absolute requirement now for national politicians maybe even for local politicians what yeah. I don't know about local, can one sees Congress people on your soldiers who are not good origin and they still gonna get a fact it anyway to become president of the United States. Mandarins, no question no question, and and you know, the Susan was round in euros with everybody had it. There was Jack Kennedy run for presently became president and you no lesser greater degrees with Singapore again and again Ronald Reagan. Obviously, booklet. We're gonna tv, Obama was good on tv. Donald Trump was whatever he is on tv. Well, I'd look t began to where he got yes, he is we start exit, there's another kind of media, so though every generation has its new forms of media that affected influence. Politics and politicians have to learn how to be good at those things. As you point out in nineteen sixty Nixon, Kennedy. We have this new, think all social media and I think most people

I would agree whether or not you liked Trump on social media. Where he's now kicked off mostly He was very good at it and got a lot of attention set up a lot of oxygen, but would you say about social media that it is necessary? For national politician to have a great end, powerful presence there or no, because a binding, I dont, think with. We know that I dont think it has not heretofore but like let's see what Mickey Hayley does on Tik Tok. You know in a year. You know I mean you to say that this year to all phenomena, I'm Atlantica you know and what by social media. Obviously, in Donald Mean Facebook and Twitter you don't use that has no one had so now anybody who able and willing will certainly try, but it goes. Larger question of whether don't drop is a sweet, generous figure. Of anything just doing thing to get attention that yeah there are the mat, gaiters and

and marginal regions of the world who share that. But you you also to be good on social media- requires kind of slight, perhaps slightly reckless. Performative ability that I think still Republican politicians are little afraid of do probably hit other quality. The tracks but Nixon, and you could make the same point about other politicians, although not that many, but that category would include Joe Biden, and that is a person who became a national figure successful early enemy Nixon was pretty young. We became vice president to Eisenhower but then he lost the presidential election to somebody who your many Folks, all of you when you like so many folks thought, was added experienced and then he went for a lesser offices, as is described and talked about in the past, governor of California.

Part, because the price package also suggests he. He was the least californian persons of her up for stay went office in California. Arguably, so. He's got failure after failure, including at state level, but he sticks to it and comes back in nineteen. Sixty eight what is the quality there? That causes a guy who has been a heartbeat away from the president, but then suffers incredible and painful, and perhaps humiliating electoral defeat want to stick with it. important to politicians generally will certainly that incredible. Almost too, The unfathomable unfathomable tenacity, given those double rejections, not a quicker, but but I think I might add that we give me a try fire me. A couple arms, and maybe I know he is incredibly tenacious and n- was

correctly convinced of his own shrewdness smartness I'll. Do anything I need to do to get elected all of those all of those in this house. It is for a successful politician that had nothing to do with the problem. but of presentation or retail aspects, so so just that I'm in and why you know, as you know, having us in the past the premise here this was his last shot, even though he wasn't at all. He really. This is. I should be president I'll be the best president and is now or never so I was going to be, he wasn't can be outlay. Stevenson run it. No, I don't think so. In many in we were in any sense was given here my students- and I think too understood that some way as the late sixties were happening and he's running for president. That first time he understood how He could use the backlash against the late sixties to win. I actual that's not so it's implicit in the podcast but

from my reading about him, he's thought o this. This is a good moment for me, I'm a dimension of Joe Biden earlier, and I don't think there are a lot of people who compare by Nixon but in the sense of Biden had multiple embarrassing run to the presidency, failed are any comparison there with respect to their qualities. That's an interest, that's a very interesting comparison sure and in the end they almost they don't. our generation, but by his only one generation younger than Richard Nixon in terms of they are both from this saner time. I guess I dont think I think, though but in the terms of Joe Biden he seems to have achieved some level of with And if I get it, I get it. If I don't, I don't, whereas Richard Nixon was just I gotta get this. I gotta get this. I deserve this.

gotta get Zelda connects, always I'm the phoenix and I've been arise from the ashes. Well, I'm the phoenix that the the the bastards, the liberals, the press, the who members are keeping me from my rightful place. People talk a lot about, and you do also about Nixon's paranoia, isn't an anew real quality for nationally successful politician. I think well, on the one hand, look we just had a president who did the neediness and paranoia. Don't tromp obviously makes us think like I. I guess it's a natural thing, but now I think the degree to which he had it and it drove him and in the whole package of resentments that field it ah, is from my reading of history unusually high of presidents in my lifetime, I may not Ronald Reagan- Paranoid no Gerald Ford, no Jimmy Carter, not really Brok abundant. No, so hiding was exceptional and then would you say, that's the reason for his ultimate undoing this paranoia o aborted

left for me. If you want, I one word for an effort for the red. The that the reason for his undoing it is. It is paranoia absolutely and or resentment I mean if they come in his case. As flip side of the coin, we noticed when there's something else that was sort of interesting, that I noted in the pact. asked. The man is this observation that Nixon all those from California and had always resentment towards lots of different classes of folks he did You wanna be admired and accepted by the New York City Elite, and you have a little bit of that Donald Trump who grew up among the New York City elite. depending on how you to find the elite in what he sort of establishment institutions are. He was not there early accepted, discerning disrepair they are between Nixon in Trump. I think absolutely didn't mention that in the pot just because it seems more about Trump Nixon, but absolutely again. They come from different.

Class virtually different level of wealth, but I think in a certain way a guy, the sun and grandson of these guys in queens and he from bike just wishing wanting to Saturday night fever kind. why make it in Manhattan is, unlike Richard, Nixon coming from small town, Nowheres, Veal, California, and and in a running against John F Kennedy, a hub Harvard I think there is a definitely a connection there and just as Nixon's visceral resent of the elites, the liberals or that

was real and- and I think his silent majority, his supporters understood that. Do you, the great silent majority, am I got all Americans. I ask for your support the same with with tromp, as he was running the first time when the press would say, but he's a billion he's a rich guy, how he has nothing to do with you working folks. Yes, he does. They sensed that his rage and resentments and contempt and feeling feeling the content toward him. They saw that it was real. They saw that you know, except for his fixtures and his third wife. He was just like them, except for those things supper, those things as Emma casinos areas, and I think that they both used or or had the benefit of the the authenticity of their resentments and insecurities and paranoia that the sum of their voters, sure

you're. So I asked the question in a particular way. I asked you what it said about Trump and Nixon that they were to be accepted by the New York City Elite, whatever that is, What does it say about New York City. That is engendered. That kind of approval seeking on the part of powerful people like that. Well, it is, it is as Paris's to France. New York is to dance dates. I mean in others, lost and was theirs Washington there's all these other nodes of where you want to be approved of LA certainly again in the twentieth century, for in always accept political power in New York was the the blacks and end so that it does not surprise me its natural that there was in Return Dixons Day, certainly no, no alternative. There wasn't her at the time right. George Wallace was trying the grass roots anti elite. Canada, see that

Donald Trump successfully did so. In that sense, I mean again looking back nineteen sixty eight and Richard Nixon. Nobody mentions nix, plus Wallace equals Trump. You know where the eligible and politics is the the VM illegitimate child of the to those people. Don't trumpets in something like that- maybe the legitimate and with a lot of a lot of artificial color, and it is of adding a final background personality question and the recent asking these is because I think It helps to explain, and in that context we when even drive the narrative of how Nixon handled in parallel the Watergate Issues and the Vietnam WAR. If you could graph Richard Nixon Personality- and there are two things you could graphite in a pie chart and one was insecurity and the other was arrogance. What percentage of the pie chart with each take up? You think our own Nixon. That's that that's perfectly well what question, because they are major parts of that pie. Chart I'd, say about

haven't half is probably fair and you think, that's unusually think, that's typical among powerful politicians. I think that's the little among powerful people. I think that's Tipp, of lemon people. Earliest successful people is yours. You successful guy or you fifty fifty. No, my arrogance is higher than these facts. Seventy thirty in favour of arrogance is Chris could be that this is guess. Therapy was actually to another, sixty forty, I think it's hire. You know I think attired that, because you are prepared to tell us that it was sixty five That shows that I might have secured. Certainly, I think that shows that you're under reporting you're gonna get me about you I have no one when I come on Nixon at war mechanism related questions now about ivy. You said you read my book. I have written a book, I apply percentages, you know. There are times that I have roaring insecurity they can also- and I am quite confident person to depends on a situation- has got circumstance amorously,

it depends on what but but I do think by the way that it is important for the pie chart never be all of one or the other. Do that all will. Of course. Of course and you know I mean we can attach different words to those in our confidence and and melody, yet it's kind of us, the different Bertelsmann thing, but not so negative. So this podcast talks about two things. Not just one thing and here's how you boiled down- and I want you to elaborate- is a big softball few Kurt, who is to explain the podcast The following way. You say- and I quote, I always thought- of the Vietnam WAR as a completely separate topic. A different disaster happened to occur at the same time, as all the misdeeds we know is Watergate, but in fact the two stories are deeply intertwined. How so in lots of ways I mean in terms of the first part of it

statement, Watergate came along and eclipsed everything else about Richard Nixon in and when Watergate. Well, when the water did burglary happened, I was seventeen when we make some left office. I was just about to turn twenty, so so I was I like America because I was then in all its end. If I go in college, paying attention to Watergate obsessive so I was too was, was suddenly thought of Richard Nixon Watergate as synonymous and kind of forgot about his conduct of of the Vietnam WAR to some degree, and certainly in retrospect and and I think in the popular understanding who Nixon was. That certainly happen, because it was the big event, and Michael, never happen. Vietnam. We tend to understand what first of all as he did started, he he was ending. He he was an amazing had he he was pulling out slowly, and so he doesn't

you know in a certain reading of that history, he doesn't doesn't savaged as much as he I believe now. Having done this by cast ought to be What I really didn't know and had never registered is the degree to which you paranoia about his own misdeeds concerning Vietnam uncovered in especially in the wake of the Pentagon papers in eighteen. Seventy one. another thing that drove him. the rails and maiden start ordering burglaries and enemies lists in abuse of the IRS and all the gangsterism that then are you a year later produced or wanted a burglar, burglary and two years after that, his resignation. So

It one leg just directly to the other end intraday short order. I had I had never. Just in my you know, mental tat log of Nixon Vietnam, the nineteen sixty to seventy is. I had never seen that that full on interconnection- that was just recently the case does not take a step back. You mention the Pentagon papers remind people who may not be familiar because their young, what the Pentagon papers were the Pentagon Papers war. Was this massive history that the Department of Defense under Lyndon Johnson Commission to find out what is the history of the United States involvement in the war in Vietnam there in the middle of the war, in fighting the worldview? and Johnson has escalated, had sent more than five thousand Americans, their fight it, but his secretaries events, let's figure this out now that we ve, you know it is kind of like ready fire aim. The here it hit the big way back to quit. The

report to aim and soon I was meant to be, and it was meant to be secret and theirs. It was meant to be secret brand and then- and it was finished at the end of my Johnson Administration- Sixty sixty two sixty nine and then two years later, a one of the people who would actually contributed to it was part of the defence establishment of Lyndon Johnson and of a little bit of return next and then your Ellsberg leaked it to the New York Times the New York Times published it June thirteenth. Eighteen, seventy one- and it was a big big deal because it it said, look of look at all this is this history of of lying and falsehood. That was at the very core or of our are Vietnam policy, let alone immorality and all the rest to put the White House in a bad light in executive branch officials in a bad light, but not the next demonstration correct so explained little button. You go into this in the past. You know Kissinger tells Nixon, I believe,

we don't have luxury to decent the union through the lens of what's good, politically or bad legally for us in public opinion it actually, if anything, well how about a little bit that got better the gold mine, a boy how the greater the minute they gotta than mad that management of how the gap and that all This was the guys from before right, So why was Nixon so angered and why was such a pulse of event for Nixon, where he wasn't even the one who is cast in such a bad light, while the most charitable version is that he just thought that secret documents see become documents shouldn't be linked to the press, so that that is the? righteous charitable arguable case for what Nixon's reaction, but especially, I think, listening to the tapes. And and and tracking how his react. This change quickly over time.

That was what he said and certainly was a part of the engine of his freak out, but it was more about Oh my god, if the liberals and the peace next Argonaut leak that God knows what their league about me and bring me down. So it was. It was it was. That is fascinating. That's on takeover! number one in this some news today that we can talk about that is really relevant to this so fairly timely to talk about even now in twenty twenty one! There is nothing wrong with an executive branch official up to and including the president to be upset with an angered by leaks of classified information, and we can get to the question of what We spent mechanism there should be and whether this should be investigated, but but the fact of something that's supposed to be classified and is appropriately classified not getting to stuff that's over class. Why? But appropriately class? by material. You read about in the times of the Washington Post to the Wall Street Journal Fair for officials to get upset about that right. Yes,

absolutely in many instances. In this case, though, if to take to take that argument. In this case, we are talking about reports on on the conduct of the war or from at the very most recent three years earlier and up to forty years earlier so It wasn't is always you know, with the methods of intelligence, methods were being released or that the conduct of the war now would be jeopardized or any such thing? So, but yes, it was a secret document. Do you think the most journalists agree has been very limited question. The most journals agree that it is fair and understandable for president's to be upset. The probably classified information has been linked to the press. that's a good question. I'm anchors there is the question of do they understand it proposed that way by, say you in this direct way, but

do they really I mean we're. happy that Barack Obama the Obama administration prosecuted people for by but that's the second part is we're gonna get to that cause. It there's some news on that, but I don't want to mention what I think people in their views and where they come from their journalist, whether it is, I think it useful. understanding. The other side is coming from now. It is often the case very often the case, the people a justified reaction is something that's legitimately perceived as bad and then the overreact and we try to do things like prosecutor listen a way that is contrary to the values of the first amendment, something out of the bump, I'm putting that site right, I guess I'm just want understand one another We understand the waiting us as a general matter of the legal classified information or, if, generally speaking, the mission of trying to get as much stuff from the public as possible. they didn't overrides any sort of at least understand that this is this is it is a complex one,

and I think a lot of people approach it as it. I get so easy, of course, the stuff if it gets leakages latent, you know, that's wonderful. There should be protections for joy bit of music, you talking about is United happiness Lunch time. On Monday July, nineteenth and minutes before we came on tape America, on the attorney general, announced a new set of God, principles that make this department is happening, and probably the most protective of journalists against subpoena in compulsory processed by the two from the justice in history, So certainly, there's a view by this administration that, if they don't like something that's coming out what they can do about.

Has to be limited because of the principles of the free press. Do you think journalist understand is to be a complicated thing or a simple black and white thing. Well, there's a lot of your kind of journalists as we know that there are still good bad faith ones. Then there are responsible, intelligent, thoughtful, good ones. I think the people whose journalistic practice entails this kind of you, no secret documents, classified documents and pop reporting them are not absolutely understand that ninety nine but, as your question also implies a suggests that the journalistic id of o locally secrets, I got em, I wonder Porter gets the way of the super eagles. No, of course, I understand that you know that the needs of of government to keep certain things secret. You said something else recently and use this word a few minutes ago. In our talk as well- and the word is, gangster obviously always makes me interest

When people talk about getting escapes me- and you said- and this this has been sitting with me for a couple days quote- I never quite realised that to which Vietnam and specifically the Pentagon papers released, just turned him Nixon into the gangster that he was always ready to be. I love into the answer that he was always ready to because a lot going on, it sends, including you know it application about whether his gangsterism was latent, why that was the trigger? Why the word gangsters is to talk about their water sure, and I think I said in an interview, but I'm not I'm not backing off at all. Stand by that statement absolutely well. You know it wasn't as though you he was a saint and then he became the bad guy the end. You know he key here. He was always willing to do dirty deeds, as we saw in in,

his joining up two bit to being this or squish year, and I come units to Joe Mccarthy's hard core anticommunist in the fifties, but he in oh he he kept to certain basic moral legal lines. It seems most of his career, but he was, it didn't come out of nowhere that the hot the or burglaries abusing thermal power or executive power, all the rest. So that's what I meant by the king He had in him as a latent peace. Now, I would also say again in my sense of the day we are all sinners. We can. All you know in the right circumstances, turn out to be crux or gangsters or bad. Or whenever, when push comes to shove in our characters tested. But at that I meant by that in that case, and so I think the other thing I meant, or I mean to unpack, that is that the national security justification because we were in

undeclared war from Vietnam. Or anything he wanted to do because, as you, Tom David Frost, some years later on when the President Desert is that it is not illegal, by definition, exactly So you know he had that kind of problem. Oh autocratic, righteous gangster thing that was, then. I think that for the last three years, tat his presidency triggered by the Pentagon papers leak and release, decided I them by name or will it take do whatever it takes an blood you know breaking the Brookings institution breaking a Watergate birth into Daniel Ellsberg Psychiatrists Office, whatever it takes to, find every secret. We want and keep every secret about me that I want to keep it and so that that's what I mean about becoming a gangster and when hiring

burglars and dogs in former CIA guys and took to do this dirty work But here's the thing that I don't get and maybe no powerful nationally successful folks- are always bundled up in contradiction, but guys who want their secrets kept and are paranoid about their secrets, and see a lesson and other people secrets being revealed as causing them be even more paranoid about their own secrets, guys like that, don't take all of their meetings. Yeah, so can you explain to me will, because I dont think he understood himself to be having suddenly become a gangster, a smart. You know, John got a guy who, like we don't talk in the form it on tape, wouldn't do any that I dont think you understood that yet even as it was happening because again he was the present. Of course, he could or this extra wires he was, after all, ordering tens of

thousands hundreds of thousands of people to be killed in a war. So what what's a little breakin I'm? So I think that part of it, but also as we talk about in the in the package, his insecurity and you're too combined with arrogance, led him to the taping. He set up. The taming says in the of lovers and elsewhere in the White House and an online phone calls it. He had as well, because he was What did ST understand, how good he was there. he was the one doing good things wasn't Henry Kissinger that he was the one. who was the architect of the opening to China, not Henry Kissinger, so it was, it was that kind insecurity, slash narcissism of one a record for history that led him to tape it, which, of course, is the ultimate irony tragic irony: I get AIR Richard Nixon, like I guess, You mentioned Kissinger. Is it your view?

Kissinger ably manipulated Nixon. Yes, he did indeed he an end judging by the tapes but of which we play it. Many it wasn't too hard to do again. Who do I think of the last president. The Dixie advocate Keseberg, because there is no more. I guess foundational question should have asked you not just that Nixon was very, very smart, politician This is a highly intelligent person, correct grip, because it is more than ever. Nor is there something else it player. Ah, I'm just nervous differently, smart and Dixon, but now they were too very, very smart guys, but Nixon was a very, very, very needy percinet that insecurity. Part of your pie, chart and Kissinger shamelessly pandered and played that, like nobody else I mean even his chief of staff, Bob Haldeman. You hear him on the tapes you know, Mr President, that was great, but he goes. Nowhere gets no we're close to what Henry Kissinger was.

going to do in say all. Mr President, you other you're, the fantastic you're, the most wonderful, in all honesty that Europe is that your Kissinger impression that says I couldn't if it's not bad, prepare my offer. That is ensuring passionate I wasn't expecting it. I wasn't expecting a noble, sir. The I think The first Kissinger impression we ve had on the show that really out yet so it's the best one let me be clear you can say, that's definitely the best one. I do think that there, there ever was a time even after the presidency- and maybe this is known- I just don't know it- that Nixon appreciated that he had been manipulated. That's a very good one, probably again he was self aware enough in and ruthlessly honest enough. I think that probably understood that, but but and kiss. I think you know at the time that he and Kissinger both used and manipulated each other, and they were these two.

no scorpions in the jar who had made some kind of agreement, helped you know too And help each other in use each other, so I think he knew that, but if you're Richard Nixon and you think about what how did Henry Kissinger minute, let me what did he make me do that I wouldn't have done. I dont think that their duty thing I can think of that. That would be. For the theme here we ve been discussing is that things have happened in Vietnam from the perspective of Nixon and things he did with respect to Watergate or you're. Twined is an unusual given at these words There was a domestic issue in a foreign policy issue or are there many other occasions that perhaps we should look more closely at these things in other presidencies policies. It looked to be separate and distinct and involve different personnel and different considerations, but are actually frames, very intertwined and wrapped up with each other, because their overseen by the same human yeah. Well, I think if we can proceed to Donald Trump

who is this permission granted serve, however, Who is it who is in some kind of devolve Frankenstein version of of Richard Nixon? That's unfairly Nixon in many ways, but I think we see there that like what he didn't, you Cray what he did it with Russia, what everything he did obviously was simply and purely about. How does it help me? How does it accrue to my reputation? My feelings, my money, my my whatever? again he's an extreme example, but but he's not in that as otherwise. Entirely, not why are so yeah? I think your point is a really good one, and I think there are are there ways in which the distinctions between this part of a presidency of that programme presidency, our art who are more permeable in fungible than we think for sure The thing when Dixon is is well Watergate was such a one off so far as it is a thing that is it. You know that

that that's is hard to what what would be the Watergate equivalent in other presidencies? I don't know in Vietnam is not a one off, but it certainly is in its tragic import, a huge, indifferent things so so Yes, I think that's true, and we should regard presidencies as much as as reflections of the the guy in all of his respects, as opposed to this bucket of policy or this silo of issues. But I think that there is a certain curiosity to the two to two Nixon? What people cited over, which is to say the end of the year on war, which is destroying so much of the american fibre of solidarity, an Watergate which was destroying the rest of the sense of american self confidence and trust in government and institutions. In the rest,

My conversation with current Anderson continues. After this. On the latest season of land of the giants, food and tech collide, I'm amygdala upper hosts of land of the giants- delivery, Moors people, one hot, delicious food delivered to their doors. They want it fast. A cheap and acts like door dash blueberry to grub up have been happy to provide the third delivery industry is now worth more than a hundred billion dollars, but none the major apps are profitable with billions invested, sir, I pianos a pandemic that exploded the growth of industry. Why aren't these companies profit in whose bearing the costs of others convenience all episodes

right now follow end of the giants wherever you get. Your part casts for Rico, Eater, the Vocs media podcast network, a folks prettier, as many of you know, CAFE, is now part of the box. Media pack has never hear it stay tuned. We engage in discussions each week about the most critical issues of our time. If you like, We're doing I have another talk, has recommendation for you, it's from our new sister network Box and is called today explained every week day, Post Sean Swarm, sits down. Would reporters and experts from the box media pockets network and beyond to clearly breakdown the most complex news stories, day and why they matter they recently cover the dirt Chopin trial, finds two trillion dollar infrastructure plans and even dedicated a full week of episodes to discussing climate change and what we can actually do to save our planet. I think you're gonna, like what you hear you can find today explained in your favorite

I cast up how naive visit to ask whether politicians ever asked first. What is the right to do rather than what is the thing that will most advantage me or my party or my position, or you have spent more time with professional politicians, and I have so you popular a better answer that question, but, but I would say- and we have what in making this punkahs wanting that astounded me was the end of absurd I want to spoil too much, but there's conversation between the present stage, Lyndon Johnson, a Democrat, his his democratic secular state, his democratic sectoral defence talking about whether they should confirm this news story. That's about to be published the day before the election that could win the election for his democratic vice president against bitterness, You know nobody was listening to this as far as they do in the future, but they they were.

Very earnestly saying, but what would be the right thing to do here is of the essence and his mighty bay, this as a deadline to meet speculated that shit. The story be published. It will create a great deal of excitement now or in cash from psych honours well and good and fine, but if he gets it for my ass, our base you're that we try to do such waited. Our motives are not quite And then to be heard what we say and they confirm, however, a secretary of State Rusk cap I gotta hear about that- require from about the guy that, where an irrevocable, and from their point of view they did the right thing. So it might be. either now or more naive now, but at that moment

in November of nineteen sixty eight, that's the way it winter. Many. later decades later after the time to do that, you study in describing the podcast what the lingering consequences for us today and twenty twenty one, I think other than, as I say, Vietnam in Vietnam plus Watergate, maybe permanently crippling America's ability that got governs often get along I think what Richard Nixon did as a way to politically use Vietnam. Aunt. I wore protests in the end were feeling setting up what he did so brilliantly, work of evil genius in in his famous silent majority speech, the independent sixteen.

As the Anti WAR movement was really becoming scaled in mainstream. To create this US, regular Americans, silent majority, whites urbanize, describing how you will first then protesters hippies liberals, the press, professors like people the way he he tea set that up very explicitly as president which to me is, is different than doing it as a candidate nineteen sixty as pro around any issue of foreign policy. Right not around the cultural issues that he is making the issued this auspices than thing set, that up to eventually and and obviously in horribly and drop presidency, to become the central primary republican issue. If you can even collar and assure platform tribunal, caulerpa form, but the way they run. This is US forces them an end and that really, along with you, know all of

The position of the Justice Department, where that well sure we saw bill bar, but look John Mitchell, Richard Nixon and taping, trying to find the spy on journalists, yeah Trump Administration, but look look at the next. Russian, so I keep getting in mixing I realise that a much more confused by Nixon in his legacy than I had been before good and all the things you know I don't have large- might allow the thing just what I totally get it. The end of the Nixon story is not that these things worked. The The next story is that he was completely ruined, humiliated had to leave the white grounds unreal one. On every lists will get to this in a moment is on every list: a viable contender forward. president in the history of the country and most corrupt So why are people during these lessons from before the end of the story? Well, what What you just said tells and why I kind of cringing pushed back,

People say all love. He was a great moment and that is on before, when resigned in whose peace fallen was garden. You know a justice in dignity and rule of law triumph. Sure, that's all true but in some ways the rot and the decadence that began in that time and out of that administration. So evidently is part of what letters to the two thousand tens. Now the two thousand twenties where We have moved way beyond the pale that we had never moved before. We move way be off the Rubicon. Where were you know famous Lee nineteen. Seventy four, the elders of the Robin Party, went to Richard Nixon since President, you gotta go to undergo this, isn't gonna work, An absolutely nothing like that happened, obviously with Donald Trump, and so the culture has changed. America has changed what the standards are, what lines can't be crossed his change and Richard Nixon as bad as he wasn't so many ways:

was still an institution must be understood, as did the rest of his party. Understand, like you stepped on the line, been caught. You gotta go and that just doesn't exist with this present day republican Party. Do. Thinking about this conversation getting more concerned. And it might be because of mice simpleton prosecutor, brain which has been pressed for a very long time into the belief that there is such a thing as deterrence, and so people do bad things and they get punished. other people see that they are generally deterred from doing the same thing. That always get me some subset of folks who may be troubles in that category, who don't care and reduce gonna, be corrupt and no amount of but the grace of God go. I stuff ever penetrate their brains, but in inhering us talk about this You know you had Nixon doing all these terrible things. He was cast political oblivion for it, and still people learned the wrong lessons trumped at all these terrible things and was on multiple acacia.

try to be held accountable by the Congress. Who knows what other accountability awaits him? I'm not quite sure that there will be it seems to be compounding the the legacy of Nixon if next was punished politically at least, and not everyone learn the right lessons if trap is not punish politically or otherwise. How much worse? For the lessons learned now, that's a very competent question. I know you have sixty seconds to answer and well. I was just return. What I mean it's virtually drove a question which is to say yes, we're it feels like, a little bit in this way, because because Trump has not been really held accountable in any meaningful way, an end A meal ever leaving him aside the Republican Party the senior Republicans held themselves: account will have not you know which Macao has not helped George Holly, really accountable, even though they get you know the yellow each other they did for briefly so,

so it's all a measure of how you're needs rule of law, a prosecutor, Aerial deterrence- oh, they won't come at those crimes anymore at that level. With these people isn't looking. You know what gets by, I often say I think of you know what we mean when we talk, I think, legitimately, about this role overcome party in its someone, even supporters being members were called, which I think is no longer a metaphor. Well, how do you d programme people from cults and not an unknown people, that's a nice seen them get out the other side and, as you know, we saw what happened in Germany in Japan after the war effort were too what we want to say is: it is a larger sense of this week. This is supposed to be a deterrent and an somehow two generations after Knit Richard Nixon that isn't so anymore and ends in summer. But it seems to me, is because so many millions of people have been have have come believe that no, it simply

who has the power and it doesn't matter how you get it it's just about. Who has the power. you used the word early on the package that has not often used on the spot. Customer family back ass use the upward and you must know why and bring up the F word because because you recently did in meditation on the use of for. Let a word in the great lady, the New York Times, when we do you think of delving to the frequency overtime of the usage of some people's favoured Worthy f bomb in your times, because I was slightly shocked at the beginning of the summer when I saw a long assailed by the esteemed and great Salman Rushdie I use that word in its past tense in a liberal way. I'm avoiding using it. You can use it. We can believe it zones, or it was just talking about one thousand nights and

two horizontal sister sat at the foot of the metal. watching her sister get fucked for a thousand one night, wow. I was funny to me that I was shocked to see that in the New York Times- Chuck generally le you're. Familiar with the word I- and I am very familiar with that usage as I was then, of course, and again and again, and when a back when I was out of them new magazine, one of one of my things was like we can use these words in this asterisk asters. Asterisk thing is stupid and leather use, em are dumb, yeah and so I thought like that's interesting and then I've and then- and then I heard heard the word ANA refine, podcast insomnia, that Britain and the trends an end then yet one comes across all these like it and then he uttered a certain barnyard apathetic. Then they use the word all these contorted ways the journalist to not, to my mind, ridiculously sometimes get around saying, though

let her words in question when they're in the news right. So I was curious just like what is the what is the policy here and so on searching my New York Times our facts as a subscriber. I could do and disk exactly how many times over the years from what apparently was the first use back and ninety eight for early, such as far as I found it at an end and how it ebb and and how the floodgates would be open. then closed, and ever just amazing to me that. It seems as though there is no clear policy for that. That word and other Dirty naughty smutty, whatever gear do you have any other than the and the the observation that there's an inconsistent application of some nonexisting rule about when you use that word in a in a newspaper. If you were asked to write the policy for the New York Times what would be an appropriate f word. Say it was going to believe it, because if we are effort over time, What would be? What would be? What would be your guy?

secure ass an usage of the word fuck in your times. I would I would have to sit down and consider that in writing, but I would you read would read books a philosophy of ethical? No, but it's interesting that some of them the comment I got from people afterward was sought. They have actually a different policy for print and an online occasionally, which is odd. That somebody was saying. Oh well, that's because you know some grandparents may be read in the press. It that's ridiculous. You know, and then they grant grandparents. You know better than anybody. Wealth What that word means and the context in which its Hughes I've been working. Children then grim angry I you know. I know I don't know that it would be very difficult to codify the policy and not make it on a and not do as there now obviously doing it on a case by case basis. But I think if I were the editor, I would not

get so weirdly inconsistent from day to day that there is no I'll try to have the I mean obviously win win, Donald Trump used it and it was the noteworthy or when the first lady used it talk about Christmas decorations, and it is not worth it used it. But pretty recently when it's come up in news events, they dont an agenda and, as I say I mean that the in the Supreme Court decision about the cheerleader and Pennsylvania, who was totally free to sites to do her snapchat with you, no fuck everything in hurdle, Snapchat but they didn't say that like why, that that seem Like that, in my code, when to use. It is exactly when you should use, it is literally the basis of what the Supreme, what was deciding was protected speech, not the basis of a punishment as a corpse in contravention of the first woman right right. What She had said F as a reader of nor times you dont know what she said you know tell you to go somewhere else, and- and it is

rage and, as you say, without important. First Amendment Supreme Court case like come on sale what about until about television. It was and between television print. I don't know at this point, so turned into a standard and practices. I know in Britain and the internet has mooted all of that right. I mean what place it gets weird to me, and then you know I'm I'm very good about my language on these programmes. I may not always be good about my language privately, but it does in some ways. Over the last few years Jars me a little bit to see anchors say the words bullshit and shit hole part it may be necessary because in those instances it I can think of the directive. The president of the United States and have you reported in in a way that the people can understand the context without using the words, do you think that's fair? I do

But- and I say again that day they haven't caught my eye, tv, even though what is to be in the age of the internet is different. I get that, but an end in terms of Being a whenever you are alarm startled, offend not offended. You spoke of his jarring, destroying us no joint. Well, my strong experience that was having young children in the ninety. Ninety, in ninety ninety eight I'll write with less than when the DNA. What what are we talking about daddy? And that was right? kind of job exactly arms, so that that's. Why this peace, because it's not an easy all or nothing thing used to be. Like we never say his words. I never have these words in print and- and and to me the various solutions, the F bomb, the be asked, risks that all those things I I just think they're coins stupid because of course, what there

What they're doing is like. Oh, you the listener reader are forming that word in your head, but we're not the point here I will work. Who's that that's what made so now so next. So now, I feel I'm trade in meat It is now I feel that you will be judging me or have judge me to use a tense formulation that used earlier when you this package, and if we be bout these words, then you think we're being coins well it's fair. It's totally Farragut, I mean I mean I not you you're, not last November. I stammering, I think I think I have an oh yes, I do. I think it's silly and and frankly the reasons The word myself is, is I thought, won't punk

no FCC, we can say whatever we work hard for you, gonna fuck, we're we're gonna put it, who I'm shocked coronation the package is Dixon had worn it great. You can get a where we listened to your bank ass. Thank you. So much for being such a pleasure My conversation with Kurt Anderson continues for members of the cafe insider community to try out the membership free for two weeks had to cap. It all come slash insider again, that's Cathay dot, Slash insider, so books to end the show. This week I wanna take em up to address to me as a very important controversy. Now, it's not the most issue facing our nation today, but a matter signal

to a subset of the population, one that I find myself in, and that is a subset of people who are true fans. Every springs the controversy is simultaneously. I should say about music in language and evidence and even stricter listen to proposals and stay tuned every week. You know their talk about Bruce all the time most only when I went to see him live on Broadway with myself couple weeks ago, you may have also heard me say, and I've said a model. times on the record that this thunder rode on the nineteenth, me five album want to run It is not only my favorite Springsteen song, it's my favorite song period and I don't hear anything. in fact I started one of the chapters in my book, the one about cooperating witnesses with the line as an inside joke to fellow Springsteen fans, which Worse is the first line of thunder road, Now. The second line of that song is where the controversy arises. depending on your lyric after the screened or slams.

The lyric either goes married. as waves or marries dress sways. The same night I brings in Broadway european reporter Maggie Haber meant was, coincidentally also in attendance. recent variety article notes just before the show started, Maggie tweeted out A screen door. Slams marries, dress, sways emit you taking aside. If this controversy little did No, that would ignite a Springsteen fan twitter storm. My whole life. I've thought that marries dress waves and have cited as waves at home and Carry yogi to be clear: this isn't a new debate sparked by Maggie Springsteen and had been fighting over whether the dress belonging to waves or sways for the last forty six years. Yeah. That's all this and many have argued that it sounds like sways to their ears. important bit of evidence,

The original vinyl pressing included lyrics that clearly stated waves. It's in writing! That's the original text that would suggest the original intent of our founder grew Springsteen. Well, not fast last weekend, as a controversy was renewed Yorker David Remnant, whose also a former stay tuned guest reach two Springsteen's longtime manage John Landau, the email to see if he could set, the debate- and Here's where the news comes in land. That responded with some official word on the subject. They said, despite text on your written, a liner notes, the word he says, is not waves. It sways and he said that any typos in official Bruce material will be corrected. Typos forty six year old typo, he also by the way, interestingly claims at theirs even earlier, writing the Bruce. wrote the song that way with the word waves in Israel.

No books but he's pretty no evidence of it. I don't know how court would interpret draughts of legislation and other they put a lot of stock in them, but Nonetheless, that's a land, our says it s not enough If it can evidence, he also pointed out actual common sense argument in favour of the word sways he's had pulled by the way, dresses, do not know how to wave. I don't know if that's true when will come back to that in a moment? There's other common sense argument. As the next line of the song. So it's we endorse lambs areas, dress way, or sways versions, giants across and plays and sways better rights replace. So the art goes so I get that so I'll admit there- some real evidence. The marries dress sways Some people are still not buying it. This week I tweeted simply marries dress waves. I know pretty there

me- and there was a lot of reaction monsieur some of it with you. Some folks agreed with me. Christine responded yet amendments or for the constitution, not Springsteen lyrics. I stand The printed lyrics on the original album good for you Christine Data. Responded. We have all been saying that since nineteen seventy five, because we read the words on the album cover, it's over no take backs that's a decent point, Marvin wrote. This is like that black and blue or white and gold dress controversy from a few years ago, see what you want to see you here. What you want to hear my ears waves for forty five years, Marvin Great Point but it may be that the better analogy is had business about whether you heard Jani or Laurel. Remember that in just said, I'm with you for others, address, can't wave, I say if the stars he'll banner can wave so can marries, dress men Jeff. Many folks. However, on the other side, Your hair day spectre here they posted

stand with a lyric. He sang not the uncorrected misprint yeah forty six year old, misprint Sean replied pretty much. As I respect your opinion on all things Bruce. I have to disagree. This one sounds clears to me. Both the s for sways and the lack of a plea for waves. Sam wrote, sorry, my friend, but marries dress ways sways rhymes with plays beside dresses can't wave. Ok, that's your opinions him, but I think we redress that, and some folks don't take aside, were replied that risk anything it wants to. Is the boss for God's sakes, that's a fine point So amid the turmoil, some members of the street band cut into the act. Nea laughed winds, wife, tweeted quote a band member has waited in Nils laughter. is going with sways so that significant? But another street pin number how different reaction to the controversy

into the variety article Stephen Vans and also known as little Stephen wrote, quote: oil they get Bruce Lyric shit out of my feed so I have always been a waves guy and perhaps to some of your dismay, that's how I will continue to sing, I think, I'm too old to change but as a train lawyer and someone who really values, evidence and some it was not a school disciple. I dont think the text is everything I am prepared to believe, marriage rested indeed sway in that wave. I will note, however- a moment that I'm recording this the elder. Authority on the subject. The boss himself has yet to confirm or deny so stay too, screened, sway. And there is another relevant party who is also not waiting

rightly noted the end of the article on this controversy quote. Mary could not be reached for comment on this or are not being particularly beautiful. End quote you well! That's it for this episode of stay tuned. Thanks again to my guess, current Anderson and if you like, all that history curtain I talked about today. Don't forget check out our new weekly history podcast now and then, wherever you listen if you like what we do rate, review to show an apple pie casts or wherever you listen. Every pause. Review. Helps new listeners find a shell. Send me your call Is about news politics and justice tweet them to me at Pre, brought with the hashtag asked breed

or you can call and leave me a message at six hundred and sixty nine two hundred and forty seven seven thousand three hundred and thirty, eight at six, six thousand nine hundred and twenty four preet or you can send an email to stay tuned to CAFE stay tuned is presented by Cathay studios and Vocs media podcast network. Your host is pre Ferrara. The executive producer is tomorrow, supper. Senior producers at a smaller. The technical director is David TAT ashore. The cafe team is Matthew, Billy David Orlando SAM overstating Noah Ally, not wiener, J, Kaplan, Jennifer, corn, Chris Boiling and Sean wash their music is by Andrew Dost. I'm prepared statement.