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Ah, inspiring performance combined with luxury design as standard the time is now the all electric pollster to book a test drive and order today at bolster dot com. from cafe and the VOX media podcast network. This is stay tuned in brief, I'm preet bharara last tuesday Kevin Mccarthy was ousted as the speaker of the house of representatives after fellow reply. A representative mac gates introduced emotion to vacate the speakership. This is a historic moment. This is the first speaker to ever be removed in such a fashion and his egg as highlighted the intense fishers in the geo p in the larger tensions in congress. join me to discuss these issues as John f harris here's, the co founder

and global editor in chief of political and he's written extensively about the dysfunctional mccarthy speakership in its political altitude column. John welcome to the house thanks so much pre. So let's go back to win. Kevin Mccarthy became the speaker, and others have suggested, and you have also suggested that the seeds of his own destruction were sown at the time he became speaker. We mean by that, in order to win the speakership and recall that it took fifteen votes, He had a trade away, a lot of the authority that the speakers traditionally have. You know in the what day is that was really really powerful position? I would say we have to two percent, also. The nancy Pelosi be even in this era of a less governor bauhaus, she exerted a quite a lot of authority through the strength of her personality. No Republican has been able do this for a generation. Now it such an unruly house republican conference and

The nature of the institution has changed so profoundly that the old days of work I've got troll over what committees you sit on. I've got control over fundraising. I've got control over whether your influential or you're, just a ghost at the back of the chamber, no speaker is held that kind of authority, but eve the remnants of that kind of authority, Kevin Mccarthy effectively traded them away to actually, when the speakership out on the fifteenth out back and janet where he traded away his influence on the rules committee and basically ads as to the world that term he was vulnerable that the end time? I had a small number of republican votes, could dethrone him and that's exactly what happened in some. since he was never really speaker, except he had the title of. He had nothing like the historic power that we associate with this office, So why now was just because of the argument over the shutdown of the government or something else who was it

the nation of things pricked. My own view is that was just a pretext. This was going to happen in due course as you said, the seeds were late in the ground? Back in january? and at some point this was going to have another pretext or that the perception of that was, of course, the deal that cabin mccarthy took to avert. A government shut down last week and that allowed the mac aids and the others who have been critical becoming. It's easy to see. We told you is not really a true conservative, at least in the modern incarnation of that word and less dumper. now in a federalist majority. Two hundred and republicans stayed with him. You know It's just a handful of or able to join us was democrats to oust him, but that showed just how precarious his bill always was, as I say, his speakership was effectively

an optical illusion. He never really had it. Speakership was effectively an optical illusion like that What was the motivation for and we talked about it, but I want to understand it better the motivation for the seven other republicans to get rid of mccarthy, knowing that is going to throw the caucus into turmoil knowing is going to, hopefully knowing or presumably knowing it was going to weaken the caucus busy. The Democrats, what's really in it, for them: wealth, coursers, an ideological component and anybody who try to defend their actions as is going to assert that they were unprincipled grounds. I think you have to say that the really this was personal animist, certainly mad gateshead not disguised his personal animates effectively wanted, mccarthy's antlers on the rec room wall and he got them the others. I don't think

was necessarily am quite. It is fair to describe it as a fit of personal peak. The way it might be, that might be a fair description of mac, gates's motivations, but I dont think you can understand the lack of risks, back to the cabin mccarthy holds among the most conservative members of the house republican carcass, and that would include a lot of people who and the two hundred and ten just see him as a strictly transactional politician. They don't steal as guided by convictions, any sort other than his personal survival, and them they just seem as transactional figure. In the end, I think it's not go too far to say that they feel contempt towards him. What's that something about which there is by partisan consensus, democrats kind of despise them for the same reason. Maybe some of them do right precisely in a hole some moves. You can have a certain amount of sympathy for cabin mccarthy like hey

you know you try doing the job when at any given time, just a small handful of members can throw you out of it at ease. The sympathy is really limited when you look at cabin mccarthy's own actions in the period leading up to his speakership and well having it if he was really trying to build bridges of any kind You re certainly wouldn't have backed the conservatives and trying to a peach Joe Biden. He certainly one taken opportunities, as he did tat sort of practice, the sort of most flagrant, the parson. That was democrats, absolutely zero reservoirs of sympathy. I think, is notable that a single democrats. It hey, you know what were better off with order in the house rather than chaos, and certainly if it has to be a republican I'd rather have it

Kevin mccarthy than somebody else. No once said that no one can claim explain that because there was some speculation, but some Democrats will vote that way all would have taken is a small. Chancellor democrats to save Kevin Mccarthy, and now the Democrats can get someone did they'll have to deal with. It will be more conservative and more intransigent. No they'll, be different. But I hope, moreover, that data the We're going to have to say I don't wanna make those predictions that certainly one possibility, but I, one does have the sense of the house kind of taking up in a medic of sorts right there you know I could you take when you saw poisoning while the serpent and heave it up, with apologies for kind of a vulgar word picture there, but one does. Since that's what's happening, the house is retching and they reached up Kevin mccarthy so it's possible that something more like can certainly now civility your cooperation, but the normality could

urge from this. What's the fate of mac gates, there has been discussion that there could be something emanating from an ethics review of him, and I guess the mccarthy, people or mccarthy himself was suggesting my gates could be ejected from houses he completely safe. Now, while I wouldn't say that mom, you know just as my gateway cabin mccarthy's, antlers on the wall. There's plenty of people would like to see matt gauges, antlers upon them, and them others putting people hunting for him? I dont ears, I can tell- and I dont them a lot of time on their gates had spent some time with around cabin mccarthy. I'm off the market tears here, an anti institutionalist he's somebody who has learned the politics of contempt from watching for president donald trump and then Oh, where he's Jesus transactional, politicians, Kevin Mccarthy, as he does,

an ethics review. We don't really know the status of that we do know that is quite interesting run for for governor and if they His aim and really stimulating a hard core conservative base is his perceive pathway. In the republican nomination, he's probably play discards rather effectively in this. How do you think Hakim Jeffreys, the democratic leader conducted himself and manage the clock, is in all of this well as we discussed the zero democrats voting to help them Kevin mccarthy out even as some initially were, were wondering in that scenario described earlier. He wouldn't we be at her after doing some deal, making minority leader Jeffrey said. No more, not doing that, and I think it notable anyone whose very early tests of his ability to unify the democratic carcass. He succeeded. perfectly no dissenters saw

that's a fairly favourable sign early about his ability to attempt to manage the democratic conference The good thing about one hypothetical. Absolutely I'll take you say I never answer hypothetical run out of this and I loved, or that it will do all they want to make is that you will make predictions so had the best effort. I Well, a certain species of prediction: isn't it escalated about this before the mid terms, and I think it would take it's her is enough. I now know think truly on the table, but we'll talk about it from anywhere in the the possibility that there will be a movement in favour of donald trump former president becoming speak of the house, because the rules of the house don't require the speaker to be a member. There is this rule rule twenty six. Some people say, would bar trump because he's indicted and multiple places and as a rule that the house has arrived republican rule. I think republican rule rather than the housework them, if you are a member, if you remember the house,

and you ve been indicted for a crime that could be punishable fur from more than two years. You have a step aside from leadership, so discuss the possible you ve trump as speaker. Well, it's a certain fantasy that some republicans clearly hold. I'm with you print. I don't think it's actually the most plausible scenario. The reason I don't think it's the most possible. Are you, among several reasons I doubt is that it would be an awful lot like work and I'm not sure Donald trump really wants to do that kind of work. running the house even in a kind of symbolic way. I suppose it's an awful lot like work and The kind of work is not at present trump. Doesn't them doing work, but he likes basically doing them. Tromp related work and I m not trying do the hard work of cuba unruly carcass organised I'd be a little surprised if that were job

the end of the day was attractive to him, but I will say it was a two things One there's a certain elegance to the idea of the fact of the matter is donald trump. Is the leader of the republican party and no one else is obviously cabin mccarthy. Wasn't like mitch. Mcconnell really is. I don't, like any other people, vines the republican nomination not really breaking through our donald trump runs. The republican party, so Why not just acknowledged that in a sense to be a certain elegance to him that scenario you describe the other thing I would say the reason I kind of careful predictions brief. That anybody running the tape with never that so many of them don't come troop. So this would be a totally outlandish surprising scenario, but we ve had

at the end of outlandish scenarios of actually played out over the past two seven eight years. That's maybe this would be another one that don't discount entirely well, more likely candidates include representatives, Scully's and Jim Jordan. How do you think they will fare in back willing and who has the advantage of anyone. You know I do tend to think that the least has them aside wake up precisely because the republican conference capital, is so disorganized there there so angry with one another. So rudderless he's not in great health course he's got the or around his reputation for He was a victim of of gun violence. A couple of years, a at a house softball practiced in alexandria virginia, he might be the kind person that the conference could say. Look, let's unify around discoveries and fighting and you know he given him.

Age, given his health might not be in the job that anyway. So let's just go stephen move on in any way. that's kind of the scenario that I'm betting on, but not with any special confidence, in Jordan, has a shot, though I mean he might because it is presently trumps party and he is the person of most of those candidates is most allied with the trunk brand of conservative as milk. It will describe what a gym jordan speakership would look like. I think what it would do is take trump style politics and that were accustomed to now in the presidential context and inject it firmly into the house. I think it would be a kind of nonstop parson, about another very legislation. I would think so. No, and you know Math is math pre directly. He doesn't Edith doesn't have any greater margin. Then them cabin mccarthy did

until I really think until the elections a year from now, thirteen months from now we're going to have an effectively ungovernable house, any switch of just a couple of votes means that there is no speaker backed mccarthy for a second Is there anything he could have done differently to save himself, I've been pondering that an them. I'm not sure. There is a good answer to that. He never would have become speaker most likely back in january. Without me, in those compromises that he did, they work actively fatal compromises. They almost guaranteed this outcome I suppose that if he had been kind of more insistent from the beginning in signalling that work, I'm going do be running the house around and governing again

which means a key knowing I'm going to be trying to seek bargains with them with the Biden, white house, I'm not going to be expressing open contempt towards democratic through pursuing the impeachment prisoner by, for example, it possible that he might have commanded enough grudging respect from the people then his own party and from Democrats that there would have been more of a kind of enhanced sympathy. Like luck, you know, I don't like all cabin are these choices, but I do fundamentally respect that he's doing Can these choices and principled way? I guess Imagine the last nine months, if he'd sort of fashion that reputation but its exact opposite of what he did and I think it opposite, of whom he is a issues

simply not somebody that the commands respect, fear deference from either party the chaos in the house republican caucus does that say anything about the larger republican party or is it confined to the house? is everything about the large group of public and party? Doesn't it it's Donald trump parting he's interested in the tribal politics here interested in the politics of contempt is not really interested. In fashioning a governing agenda. At least there's not been a lot of evidence lightly. Of that the chaos in the house is a reflection of a party that is virtually ass, well to lead by anyone, but him that's fair enough. John Harris thanks rejoined the shop. Thank you. For more analysis of legal and political issues, making the headlines become a member

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