From CAFE welcome to stay tuned. if IRAN there's always a shadow narrative in american life, and we need to pay attention to that narrative. If we really want to understand, what's going on and and stay awake to the ways that, our can end up landing in places that we didn't put it That's Edward Norton, he's a writer d Turn producer and actor has been nominated three times for an academy award. He plays it, active in its most recent movie, motherless Brooklyn, a film nor murder mystery. It features of fictional eyes, Robert Moses Tie Builder, and get something essential about America. Edward Norman. I talked about the infectious nature of power. What infamous. trump line, made it into his movie. Why it feels good

look for the underdog any anchored to an actors. Authenticity, that's coming up stated. This question comes at an email from Cheryl in Sacramento California, who writes just right a vindelin statement and feel so grateful that he is speaking up. I wish I could say with every senator, weeded out loud and discuss? Well, that's not really a question, but I will take it in spirit. It's meant and maybe discuss a little bit of immense testimony. so, obviously, Charles referring to what appears to be blockbuster testimony of Lieutenant Colonel Alexander S, Lindeman, who is or of the military and served among other things as member the staff on the National Security Council in the White House and there a series of things that are interesting about his testimony, the opening statement having been released publicly and one of those things is how much Lindeman like so many other witnesses who have come before the house committees makes it a point to describe his

public service military service, uninterrupted self, a service to the country and one reason the people are doing, this is the kind of inoculate themselves against what they expect will be inevitable character, assassination an attack, from allies of the president does who you were how you came into your position. If your hand picked by the administration itself, like Ambassador Bill, Taylor was handpicked by my palm peo, you will get attacked and you'll be accused of disloyalty, maybe even treason or treachery. If you speak, the truth, which is perhaps why Alexander women at the beginning of his opening statement, recites his history. He says for more than two it has been. My honour to serve as an officer in the United States army he's a multiple overseas tours, including South Korea and Germany, Anna Deployment to Iraq for combat operations. Where he points out, he was it in an idea attack and given the purple heart. Another part background is also notable. Is he Prevention is an immigrant. He was born What was then the Soviet Union in Ukraine and his family fled

Soviet Union for a United States of America when he was only three and a half years old, his father would multiple jobs to support the family. He learned English at night and he makes it in does to talk about, is deep appreciation for America and for the freedom that- it provides an he feels it necessary to say quote: I am a patriot. and it is my sacred duty and honour to advance and defend our country irrespective of party or politics, given these would eventually but amendments testimony is. gives the lie to a huge talking point of Republicans. Soon after the visible plain was released. You recall the republican after Republican looked into the tv cameras and there was nothing to see here cause it's all second hand. It's all hearsay, as Rita the call between present trump and present Zaleski, didn't corroborate with the whistle blower set about it in fact, does nonetheless people said over and over and over, like a mantra secondhand second hand secondhand along alone call me when you have something first hand, will you know what Alexander Amendment provides first hand testimony as he was listening

the call invite away speaks the language. The present Zalewski was speaking so understood in real time without the need of an interpreter. What was going on in the call and, among other things, He corroborate the conclusion that other people have had about the July, when, if your phone call that it was inappropriate that are raised of red flag, because the President of the United States seem to be running a White House meeting and military aid instigation of down from political rival, some say his main political rival, Joe Biden, because of his son, parliament and accompanying Ukraine, and I and he will be one of a number of people who have first hand knowledge beyond that. also talks about a meeting that occurred a couple of weeks before the July, twenty fifth Funchal, that's meeting happen in Washington, DC between the secretary, the National Security and defence counsel for Ukraine and a number of american officials, those officials included, then national security adviser, John Bolton, Ambassador Volker and Ensanguined and energy But Eric Parry Here's what women writes in his opening statement quote

We proceeded well until the Ukrainians broach the subject of a meeting between the two presidents cranium saw this meeting is critically important in order to solidify the support of their most important international partner in this is important and says ambassadors Simon, started to speak about Ukraine delivering specific investigations. In order to cure the meeting with the president time in Bolton, cut the meeting short and then vote that's not what happens after that with the aftermath of that meeting was because it was a bit untoward. He says, following this meeting there, a schedule debriefing during which invests, recycle and emphasise the importance that Ukraine deliver the investigations into the twenty sixteen election, the violence and close quote so That's ambassadors, Ireland, whose already testified in the house basically linking those two things together in what is an obvious quid pro quo. There has been yesterday to about her silence has returned to the house to review his transcript, perhaps to withdraw some

testimony, perhaps as lawyers like to say, clarify some of his testimony, but it seems he's in a bit of trouble because was contradictory testimony about what really happened. then goes on to say that after Simon said, these things quote I see to Ambassador silent, that his statements were inappropriate, that the request to invest get Biden and his son had nothing to do with national security and that such invested things were not something the embassy was going to get involved in, or push then been boss, Fiona Hill, entered the room and quote asserted to Ambassador silent that his statements were inappropriate, close quote and then he and Doktor Hill. Poured the incident Duenna Cecily Council, where apparently a record was made social Sacramento. I also feel grateful that this soldier is up, and indeed all that allowed by read some of it allowed the important parts I think and we'll get. our sense of what is testimony involved when a deposition is released in its entirety, which I expect will happen at some point sooner rather than later. This

She comes in a tweet from listener. Re Bird Hill are closed. Since congressional hearings and depositions vastly different than the televised sessions without an audience of cost Humans or protests to committee members behave differently, hashtag ass pre! Well, yes, there quite different the most difference between depositions that are done by staff members and the five minute around you see in public warehouse man. These are often speaking more than their asking. Preening more than their eliciting truth, so couplings or play one Where the tv cameras you take away a lot of people's incentive to filibuster and to make a scene. Second, you have the luxury of time in those behind closed doors sessions, it's much harder for the witness to filibuster it's much harder for the witness to evade questions. So you get much closer to truth without a clock. Going. Then you do, I think, in some of the public sessions. This is not to say that there is no grandstanding that goes on behind closed doors if members are involved, because in many cases, if not most cases, there is an expectation that the transcript become available is not quite as powerful as a video

A viral moment that you see on television, but it can still be pretty powerful if there's a gotcha moment that some members trotted engaging and prompt, so some amount of that members are about. It may all the case by the way that the witness in some ways feels more comfortable, less intimidated. The more forthcoming cause, you don't have the million cameras and reporters in the room with alive audio so that in some cases also brings more light and heat. That's a good way to Safeway into something else. It's happening this week and that is on the day this podcast releases October, thirty first Halloween, it appears Nancy Pelosi, speak The house of Representatives is going to allow a vote on a house resolution that sets forth the terms on which the impeachment inquiry will continue and it's a bunch of stuff. I wanted to but here in belgium- and I will have a much lengthy conversation about passed resolution after the vote, but we speak on Monday, but a couple, a notable things. further to the question I answered a minute ago, so there open hearings. Everyone has been complaining that these petitions going on behind closed doors. But it is with me

rotation and most reasonable people's expectations. That we will have and hearings in this house Resolute The presumably will pass, maybe in some altered form, but basically in this form, makes provision for public hearings and here's. What interesting about those public hearings, the kinds of hearings it have complained about a lot on this programme and on television that don't read a lot alight and don't get to a lot of truth, because the time restrictions and the ineptitude of some people who are asking the questions. This resolution makes clear that there are multiple committees that will have involvement in developing the body of evidence that may or may not form the basis of articles of impeachment no fewer than five committees, the permanent. Let committee unintelligence the committee on financial services for affairs, the judiciary, committee, obviously, oversight form and also ways and means a lot of people getting in the act. But this resolution, presumably crafted by the speakers office, makes it very clear that the Central Focus Centre Court, if you will will be Adam, Shifts Intelligence committee, that's wrong law. These public hearings will take place. That's world is evidence will be developed, after which a report must be delivered from the intelligence Committee

to the Judiciary Committee, which will then do it's thing. So the show is really in Adam Ships Committee. That said here interesting about how things will unfold in that committee in public hearings, which is a dramatic departure from the kind of circus you ve seen before on television that people ask about on the show. So one of the things we ve complained about disease, quick, five rounds where you can get very far well. This resolution authorizes that the chair and ranking member of the intelligence committee quote shall be permitted question witnesses for equal specified periods of longer than five minutes bizarre and on further to say the time available for each period of questioning under this paragraph shall be equal for the chair and the ranking member further says each period of shining shall not exceed ninety minutes in the aggregate, which essentially means that the chair in the ranking member alone have the opportunity for a total of up to ninety minutes, to ask questions of the witnesses in an open hearing, but there is even more in specifying that this special privilege longer questioning time lives only in the chair and ranking member, the resolute goes on to say or a permanent,

lacked committee employ IE. If yielded to buy the chair Nike minority member. That means from outset, you might see Adam shift conducting in a long line of questioning, but he may also designate a member of his staff like we saw very brook due in the Judiciary Committee. We suspect a quarry Lewandowski, in that case the professional lawyers questioning happened at the end in these kids I think you'll see that at the beginning, the ranking member definiteness has an equal right and opportunity, so right off the bat Euthanasy, I think a focused line of questioning from both here in the ranking member, possibly maybe even probably done by professional staff members. Many probably have a deeper and closer the standing of the facts, because they are the ones who, during the questioning behind closed doors during the long deposition, preparation and deposition taking. So it should I think, a little bit more fruitful from the point of view, of shedding light on conduct and then after that, for the churn iraqi Member get their long opportunity with the witnesses the resolutions,

the committee shall proceed with questioning under the five and a rule pursuant to clause to J to a rule eleven which means that the service he treat? This is only regret calling for me- and I M very excited he's come to your shall hear November and I offer recently joined insiders, and I think I must be a group now so according to some really dark days, my friend and I think that a bunch of your listener anyway and my question for you is this: how do you get through your own dark days? You are such a voice for reason, Mr Issing sanity and I love the future pot costs more than I can say thanks lap and as an aside, my little brother Paul works with you branded any frequent. I thanks Elizabeth for your call and I was wondering if the disclaimer would come about Paul and and Vinnie Paul also by the way your brother was law school class minimum at Columbia thanks.

the kind words you know deals with difficulty differently and you're. The way- think about it is. I have to turns about the country of deep concerns about the undermining of the rule of law. I have deep concerns about this president and, where he's taking the country, but then I also have in for some perspective on these things and from time to time, been a while, but from time to time I talk about some things that people should focus on outside of politics. George, and I had a conversation on this day to podcast some time ago, recent look there are other things in life: there's music, their sports, there's literature. I need to have a balance between those things and so you know. I have three amazing kids and I focused on them My family, and I see my parents- and I still watch movies- that as many as I used to read as many books I used, but there are other things in life to think about other than politics. So that's point, one point two, as I actually have an outlet to talk about this stuff. So, in the same way that there are people like you who say you derive some comfort in listening to the stuff, I derive some comfort and fair.

In talking about it, especially when I, when I have my weekly therapy session on Monday morning within member on the insider podcast. It helps me to talk about these issues with p. who know about them, who care about them and think about them and helps me to know that there are so many thoughtful Americans who are concerned to want to have some more information about what's going on another, so much good in people. One often answer. This question is by reference to my old job. With a sudden New York, the kinds of things that people see on the criminal side are the worst. The humans have to offer. Theft murderer terrorism, arson the worst kinds of things that people do and at the same time, that was most idealistic and up the place. I've ever been because people who, how to do something about it. So, every time that happens. You can focus on that, but you can also focus, I think, more appropriately and all the good people who were coming forward, picking up and blowing the whistle, and that gives you comfort neck. If you hope- and that gives you pride- that's how I think about it, Socio Minneapolis with Mayor Jacob fry evening of November fifth.

A few of you having about tickets? Cafe dot com, slash tour My guess this week is Edward Norton. He wrote produced directly. And stars in motherless Brooklyn, a film set in the nineteen. Fifty that's based on a true story about a detective afflicted with direct syndrome, tries to the mystery. The murder, his mentor, the movie which is out on November first dig the legacy of power broke a rabbit Moses, who show an impact is more than just the physical lay out of New York, but all its history of discrimination and exclusion, the star of canonical films like primal fear, bird man in american history, Ex Norton talks about the danger of not knowing who hold power. What says about what he's producing films. Why act it approached their work, intellectually, not intuitively and

how he go about making a film about a. U turn his office and now we're finally allowed to talk about fight club. That's coming up stay tuned, no one likes to think they're home isn't safe. I mean it's a home, it's where you should feel safest and when you're away, for, if you is the last thing on your mind, should be your stuff back home. Simply That makes it easy to maintain your peace of mind whether you're, inside with your family or on a get away and now simply safe, just launched their new wireless outdoor security camera. So you can check in whenever, wherever inside outside with an ultra wide one hundred forty degrees field of view. You can see your entire yard, not the random slice of it with a view from your front door. Ten he p hd resolution even on it time. Zoom means the image is Crystal clear: No grainy nonsense even at night, but simply it doesnt just give you a visual into your home. It has sound to their camera,

has audio. You can see two or even scare off unwelcome visitors, because it's wireless and runs offer rechargeable battery have to worry about finding an outdoor outlet, you're sick, can be set up in minutes, already have a simply safe set up that works for you. Then you can we're integrates with your simply safe home security system. Extend its comprehensive protection to the outside. Simply If a celebrating this new camera by offering percent off your entire new system and your first month of monitoring service free when you unrolling interactive monitoring. Your whole home security to a new level to learn more the exciting you simply safe wireless outdoor security. Camera visit if saved our com, slashed, stay tuned, that simply saved our com. Slash stay tuned episode, is brought to you by Fender Football is back and the best bet you can make, is downloading the fan dual sports book app, it doesn't matter,

if your new to gambling or an old pro phantom has something for everyone, and, as an official sports betting partner of the NFL. You know your bet, you're safe, there's also never been a better time to use fan do because right now, you'll get up to one thousand dollars back. If your first bet doesn't win you can turn a small wager into a big payday with the same game. Parlay that just sign up with it I'm a code Spotify to place your first bat risk free on fan. Dual sports book down fend off today, twenty one plus and present in Pennsylvania, first online, real money wager only refund issued as non withdrawal site credit that expires in fourteen days. Restrictions apply, see terms at sports book out, fan dual dot com, gambling problem call one. Eight hundred gambler we're Norton thanks, are being on the show its pleasure, and I, as you know, but I want to say, I'm a fan was a fan. When you are, U S? Tourney

really followed the work you have demanded exactly no, no, I I really did you know I reached out to you and I really appreciate the the way you used that office in the city. Thank you. So here we have a lot to talk about. I was we can talk about your movie, motherless Brooklyn, for which I believe you Did the writing you directed it in you're, one of the stars of it I produced too and produced it. Did you also compose the score? do the film editing are going? What you're? Probably I order where I worked in Armenia, components of it, but I had. I have phenomenal collaborators in almost all dimensions of it. This is the hardest thing he worked on. This was the big swing I've taken in terms of the ambition of the scope of it. And yes, it's it's. When you commit yourself to all those dimensions of it it consuming its consuming. There's there are times when it feels like a mountain. You feel sort of like your Alex harmful than you ve started up.

Capitan with no ropes and you're in the middle of the wall, the famous climber yeah, there's there is nowhere to go, but up you know what I mean, but but it's starting to look very vertiginous creatively I always acknowledged when someone uses a big word, so thank you for refers to two minutes, vertiginous vertiginous. What are you gonna be or something a long time ago. Soldiers of the film I have so many questions about it and where the reasons you when I spoke about it was their themes of power themes, of corruption, themes of bullying in the film that are consistent with what we do. About on the show yen and when I write about and what we care about, give us quickly. The origin of the film in the novel and what you think the movie is about.

So there's this wonderful novel, motherless Brooklyn written by Jonathan leave them who was coming up in Brooklyn. As a writer when I was coming up an actor in your. Can someone tell me off at a party in the village they said Haiti, no Jonathan, get this new book coming out about a terrific detective. Who has to solve the murder of his his boss and only friend, and I was like comfort, overtime hours like you had me a terrific. You know really. I was like they did the initial impulse. None The high minded things in the deep themes that we ve been right or to talking about on the side were in it at the time it was completely the impulse of greedy actor going. That sounds like, a gig that I want that add anything you truly with yes, the character and the novel, which is wonderful, because it's a very deep interior experience of a relationship with this guy and his really wild condition of two rats and obsessive compulsive disorder and its. I compare it almost to a catcher in the rye, because it's it's like you're really

kinship with Holden Caulfield you by being intimate with his inner mind your you love him so much that? Has he tripped himself up and his foibles and ticks and condition you wince and and laugh and feel the deep empathy write. The plot of the book, even Jonathan, would say is entirely the experience of the character when I eventually got around to thinking. Well, how do you make that cinematic cause? It's wonderful, but it is a very. It is a very saree role, literally surreal experience. Could your insight his mind. I started thinking number one that the book has a very new ward, detective Raymond, Chandler Kind of style to it and though it was set in the nineties. I said to Jonathan that I felt like the gestapo of the whole thing was, was actually like a fifties, hard roiled the nineties, never enormous, no, no and an end. Jonathan loves no war and the book has the war flavour to it, and I said, look

Film is very little. If you put up guys in Brooklyn Invaders and ninety nine you, you could end up like feeling like it's the blues brothers right, a knife. I said, look I feel like your book. It feels like the fifties and what would you think about putting it in because no one knows what turrets is his isolation? Is real people can call him freak show in it not like hey. Who would be saying that today you know what I mean an Jonathan happily is not always super self confident as an author, but he also there is a really deep sent a file. Very erudite loves those films and he he got it and he was like I get it. It lets us play it straight and then one once we agreed that trends, Is it to the fifties and there was like an aesthetic upside to making one of those movies. We all love like like Ella, confidential or Chinatown, or it opens up the cinematic scope of it into something more atmospheric in and romantic in an old fashioned movie sense wise

Do what. Why is the atmosphere? Important well, there's couple things one is. I think that, honestly, I love those movies running the wide spectrum in or out of Africa. Chariots, a fire, the godfather Ella Confidential unforgiving. You can have movies that are across the gene, respect human away, but they do a certain things you witches you enter into them and it's like someone flicks a switch in your head. The the photography is, is visceral and right and the music is great and the costumes are great and the characters. The actors are adults. They're, not people play acting and suddenly your brain just goes oh wow. This is all all dead on and you you go through a portal into a thing that you accept as not play acting, not a dire Rama but an incredible the movie magic of being transported to something with big scope and and death. I wanted

try for one of those movies. One of those films, that's a big epic, adult film that is entertaining, but it also get. it's something essential about America, like the got unit godfathers a very entertaining filled with a godfather. Is it really about the immigrant experience the experience of coming to America and coming fully american, you know it. I mean an Chinatown about is a pretty dark and deep commentary on the shadow narrative. That's under the you know the delay of the american Dreams, the West Coast, the Californian dream and underneath it is theft and corruption at an enormous scale, ripping off the people and the people who did also raped their daughters by the way you know I mean it's like it's an instinct to say: hey, there's, always a shadow narrative on in american life, and we need to pay attention to that narrative. If we really want to understand

going on here and and stay awake to the ways that power can end up landing in places that we didn't put it in I think in a war in particular, when you get away from sort of what I call the Mickey Spillane Being re version other right, the best of new arm. It really is a bracing american tradition of saying, hey. The detective is sort of us he's? Not a crusader he's just go along in his daily life, but he starts to war in the shadow and realise there are things going. On here. Are starting to irritate that part of all of us. That says, we don't really like it. When people try to rigged the game to our disadvantage, and if you get us pissed off enough, we're gonna start getting loud about it. I think that's very healthy, so you take this novel. You moved back to the fifties and then you also add some other historical overlay on top in particular when there is always talking about the film, was there's a character who

Evocative of maybe even more and more powerful words necessary, a robber Moses, The builder planner in York, about whom we had a great discussion on the show not that long ago, with one of his biographers Robert Carol, we spoke about lend me John, but as a bit about Robert Carol, one of the greatest historian dollars in America amazing and so you have a robber Moses, like character. Was all this power New York City in figures into the platinum? How much When I get into an u craftily hide him with the name Moses Randolph sure so why'd you put that during the film and what does it have to do the message of the movie? Well, first of all, I think that it's always better if you're gonna do still essential truth out of the past. The past can be a very great way of looking at the present, because it's hard to know what's going on in the history that you're living in you know some of it. But you don't always you can't see every level citizen Kane the characters called Charles Foster,

But if you know it's notional about William Randolph first, but it's not it's about more than that. It's about a kind of american right and there's value into making it literary because you have freedom to make it an amalgam of different things, status not later than drug use. I don't know what he's doing. What's forebode, you sit Working Formosa. What does that mean that not cheese has, I said, they're all working for Moses Pulses Randolph. I called this character Moses Randolph, because there are many things about this story murder, revelations about cycle sexual history that have nothing to do with our Moses but on a new one. Here from their estate, no, no, I know it's not that it's that I wanted to be free to have him interact with a made up character, like my Tredick detective, but I also wanted more in it. There dimensions of the powerful men who had been brought up

by the ME to movement. Today. This very specific dimensions of that that have nothing to do with our Moses, his history. And yet to me you can create a kind of an essential literary character out of the mash up of many pieces of inspiration right, but obviously, to me. Moses is significant in so far as he represents as well, and the foes carriage says the danger of not understanding, what's really on the danger of not being clear about who has power, how is being used and how it being used, because it's one thing as Robert Cairo excavated, but you have, person who is clearly a genius and clearly has huge work ethic and is trying to do things like make a park or build a bridge

but all the things that are lost in the costs of that, but some people call heroic building is lost unless you have some insight into it. There's also have they too mean one on things that that's almost shakespearean that really gets into classical archetypal dramatic components that stories that there's phases of it? In the beginning? The idea that someone is such that they were brilliant, it's not just they were visionary, they actually weren't, beginning a jet. I night they were an idealist. They were applying their gifts to a legitimate vision of a progressive idea of how to evolve. Cities Hata makes it is better for people right somewhere. They change they like Anakin Skywalker, literally Robert Moses, went to the dark side Carol chronicled. This he became a machiavel. He became obsessed with power, a narcissist and in amassing power

lost all interest in the democratic process of getting things done and became as wander forces addicted to power addicted to winning addicted, to a unilateral, literally autocratic vision, and in that fees there was enormous cost to the obstinacy and insistence of his autocratic vision. He also again matched up with many others like him was, I think, almost unequivocally racist, hadda, discriminatory and exclusionary view of minorities and baked that discrimination, literally into the infrastructure of the city in multiple ways, and there are many other examples of it in the movie yet, and we know from your life, if you decide do why people take the bus or do people of color take the buzz and therefore, you build highways with bridges and have a certain amount of clearance that bus

can and waters was at intentional- was not intent right. So you build em, you build a great public resource, a beach. You bill, John speech. You make it literally gala Terry, an asset and asset to help the masses right, but then you structurally prevent latino and black citizens from getting their view of the public passes by purposefully, setting overpasses too low for public buses to clear this happened, you take federal money and you clear, stable middle and working class. Minority neighborhoods by tagging them is slums raised them. Have lots of corrupt people make huge fortunes in that process,

build? The worst slums and poverty traps in the world? The project's right? An? U denude, New York of its rich community characteristics, build these horrible things there were still living with today, and the problem is that, as you get distant, my grandfather used to say this, who was of an urban planner and kind of the antithesis of Moses? He was a humanist and a progressive and people start to look at these things as intrinsic characteristics of a city, because a city is a complex place. Instead of understanding that these things were done with intention, they were done with intention. This is not african american Black lives matter. Conspiracy, theorizing about structural racism. It happened in it was done with intention, and the results are what was intended and an that's hard for people to confront, because New York New York is most of your democracy works ride to New York is the making highly yeah. Democracy may be the subway. Now it's what we like emblematic of where things do: ghetto

maybe inefficiently but democratically, and the truth is that for nearly fifty years it was run by a person who was violently antagonistic to the democratic ideals, another person was not elected, not elected and people didn't understand or believe that that's where the power was right, just be clear, speaking the robber yeah yeah and that's why, when we introduce Alec Baldwin's character for long time. You don't see his face. We show that there is an anomaly duration of a mayor. We show that there is a lot going on that are the symbols of the democratic process and someone lurking in the shadows. Who quite clearly is where the juice really is right and then, ultimately we see him take that newly elected leader and roll him like a child, a great seen, even though the mayor's just been put into office, it's the other guy, get eyes apparent, not by whose face you haven't seen right, but also you know, bearing his want of somebody who believes he's in charge here, not the mayor and he's right.

for a long time in the United States. I don't think people grasped that these brothers in the oil and energy services industries have essentially taken hold of half the political world in United States like what the Cook brothers did. It is the same thing. It's like there was an amount of power over the political system that, if you describe did it sounded like a conspiracy theory and it's taken a long time for people to fully grasped the degree to which the GEO is owned in ways that ETA messing there's none of this dimension on the other side, it I'll, but for a law time. I think it took people a long time to grasp the scale and the power of the network created by these people, who have no authority from the electorate to have the kind of influence that they're having right is for the point movie. In other words, you ve done to just expose this gap between peoples, understanding of result and how it was achieved or to call people

arms in some way to meet? Considers to be explained her in exposing in addition to being entertainer or to be an advocate, can burn said something to me. One time that those Lucy said you know felt memory or narrative, films, filmmakers or chroniclers, Daddy's, ultimate, we're doing we're we're sorry chronicling at our best were chronicling the experience of living in the times that we're living in right and I think that they can take a lot of forms like fight club is not chronicling history. But people connect with it because it's chronicling kind of an existential state of feeling its chronicling, a spiritual condition of a generation of people who are feeling a little bit anesthetize by the phenomenon of homogeneity being created around them right. But the reason that connected was it spoke, the land

which had the signal fires in it. It's funny dark satirical, look at like what we are becoming that we don't want to become right, so people feel really connected. They were in the joke. Great people felt like yes in much the same way. Might my dad's generation like love, the graduate, because it had the nerve to kind of put the middle finger up at the straight world that young people in the sixties were expected to end into that's how people felt about fight club, I thing: are you even allowed to talk about fight club, given the first rule of Michael I think we can all do we crossed the twenty year threshold. Like two weeks ago, oh and I think, officially after twenty years later, I unfortunately have become the adult you never wanted to be an you're allowed. I was gonna: ask you set of beet yourself up later,

but this is audio, so we can do that is not our former fellow ass back. I know I know you any binding charge. You'd find our China. Let me citizens are, I have made one citizens arrested. I should think about. You should ask around about that. Everyone seems to have different answer them spoken like a true snoop. What what's your day. I'm a builder to this character, the Moses character in maybe it's because our Baltic, Has this other side gig on Saturday night, like other people have commented the seams, have some of the bearing of Donald Trump, but you wrote this year's were Trump came on longer seen yet he was a reality. Show host was so. What do you make of this observation that people have well to me if the clown shoe fits this way? This character is based on this characters in Spain.

your advice, say an amalgam of people who, I think were dangerous because they brilliantly amassed a kind of a secret power, that's very different from the many offences and threats the trump Exemplify but without giving away the ending their search the dimension of the character that has revealed the ways in which powerful people can become so inured of the idea that they have responsibility to anybody that they act out on that power in other ways. That were also seen a lot of these days, those I think, people finding echoes of of Trump and others who are in what I call the web of powerful men, treating women as a kind of privilege of power. Certainly, I think, there's connections there that honesty. I wrote that big speech of Alex in the pool again longed for but again the fact it then he came along and affirmed. It in many ways, is add on that

happens with hard. Sometimes it like comes at the moment that it's right for it. I don't. I can't really speak too. It wasn't prescient on my part, adjust it just dumb if this isn't give too much awaited. There is a particular turn of phrase in the pool speech. Yes, and says. I moved on her yeah that was written before downturn. Doubt wasn't that that when I got out no but sometimes use of them, you you look you again, some of you not trying to point a sign with an arrow at something. This is, More than me, that's like Lionel. I obsess on terms of professionally for oil as it might. My livelihood, aye aye obsess on the sound of voices and on turn the phrase and with a touch point yeah and on the culturally well, it's attachment, but it also it's such a strange way of our regulating and rationalizing an assault right. It's like almost by saying something a certain way. You can turn it into something different from what it was, and it's it's so insidious in that way

of vulgarity to the almost the pride in the animal Mystic ACT, but it also is weird and run around acknowledging what it is which can solve it. So rich linguistically that it's almost like its irresistible cannon prove upon now again, as I have just denies that that's it is, you can do better than that. It so encapsulates the psychology that it becomes more than the person who said it becomes emblematic array. These types of I mean I wonder, as I'm sitting here, how someone will write a script for the movie or one of many movies, presumably in the near future and in the distant future that involve a character based on dial drop that he wrote his on dialogue in a way that more credible for who he is then maybe most screenwriters. Could I think if anyone had written what we're going through did even in a laughed out of the room, I think we thought we were inter life becoming almost satirical in the Bush.

George W Bush administration's lichen, and that looks like that looks like rooms at home, homo beer, it it looks like an olympus of competency compared to where we are in now, but in a way, you can only earn a stroll through this kind of territory if you create a character who, on a much more fundamental level, earns your empathy right. I think that to me, the political dimensions of this to me Ultimately, you ve, always gotta, know what you're actually trying to say emotionally, and I think that the beauty of Johnson's character is dead calls on your empathy on a human level. You realise, when you route for forest com or rain man or Russell crows character in a beautiful mind or Stephen hawking. You know, in theory of everything or this character, unconsciously, youth,

like a better person, because you your rooting for an underdog and that reminds you that it feels good to care about people right and to be one of the people whose, on the side of the angels whose behind this person and when you create that a fact you can take people on a journey in which their rooting for this person they are enjoying watching them, navigate the world within their unique kind of This character. Look with beyond his he's kind of a hot mess. I mean he's the part of the movie where Nicholson would hit on the blonde and you be like God. I wish I was like that it becomes a train wreck for this character and, and I think it's fun to invert all the detective cliches with him, but ultimately part of where at the beginning, as have what's it about to mean. Yes, there's these questions about power and what happens the danger of We can't see where it actually is, but I think as important to me as like. Yes, he has two rats, but he kind of has to go on this journey that I think we all have to go. of recognising that his own,

daily struggles? Don't give him a pass on? finding the bandwidth to care about other people. You know any Google and bath arise character, instead of her being the stem fatal. Who takes him in the cynical destruction? She actually becomes kind of this vision of goodness this person who, despite being a black woman, who everyone diminishes and things as secretary and who experiences casual racism, she's fighting she's on the baron. AIDS and she's fighting and- and he has to kind of get to the point that he realizes that heroism is people who fight who care about other people and as well under false. As in the movie you, you have to love. Able to serve people. Robber Moses, never seem to understand that and very famously after he built all these things. As Robert Carol describes, he would say to himself wistfully: well, maybe not wistfully, why aren't they grateful

Why are they worshipping the greatness of me, the irony being? He got so much adulation for so long. He he wore this sort of bs mantle of the self. Was public servant free decades without anybody realize that huge. That literally the reason the Dodgers I'm still in Brooklyn is his capricious you know, as it will be another due to the thing yet actually and funny could say like will allocate he does this. Other Alec is like the greek symbol for drama the comedy mask and the tragedy mask. Not a lot of actors readily can do both right he's a masterful comedian, but he's a great dramatic actor. You know a really really great dramatic actor. I dont look at his satirical chops as in any way a diminishment on on his capacity to explore the really

dark parts of human psychology and all of it. His is really really great. I had a hard time, yet there is a line where he says you know. If somebody wants to try to jack me than the Dodgers can take it on the arches till the coast and it's something you up a certain line and you can't get it out of your head that there's like an actor that should do that, and I look at Alec and I just can't really think of many people today who have the heft, the cup a city fur? He is a mastery of language. So let me yet a physical intimidation that is very very rather wamabo. Yeah is physical presence in the film. You feel very much wanted me. Jackson, the rosy covers. Yes, this will come as no surprise. I told you this before. I think when the greatest actors in America,

and you do allowed of roles, and sometimes even one role requires you to multiple things. Are there things that you think even a great actor can't do absolutely? I got to work with one of the greatest film directors, Mellersh Foreman on my third farm, and he was an idol of mine, became as close to a mentor like as I I had in this business, and he D said something to me. One time he thought one of his actual greatest gifts was casting and he said to me once that he felt their roles have plasticity and actors have plus the city, some roles have more plasticity. They can be interpreted in many different ways. Some roles, don't have a lot of plasticity, so, like Hamlet, has great plasticity. You can interpret him with a lot of different ways and it can be very interesting. Patent probably doesn't have a lot of plasticity, but then actors have more or less plasticity to Daniel Day. Lewis is like on the greatest chameleon.

capacities of any argument, it definitely Louis could have played Dick Cheney. I dont know that's a good question see that was me lotions point. If the plaster Stephen actor overlaps plasticity the role it can be great, I actually would not say that I could play the role it plays in the film, because the role doesn't it has some plasticity, but not that much need someone with Alex very unique kind. Haft and power and gravitas, and I can see myself when I was older playing the role that will in the fireplace in this movie, and I could see Willem, having played my role, but I think the two have to stretch over each other with regret the magic do act. real life. Where are you going to meetings into other stuff? We Asher, I mean, I think, every everybody to a certain degree synthesizers certain faces for certain rooms. You know I mean I mean your trial lawyer right. People would refer to a trial as theatre were going on a play and if the prosecutor, you think of yourself not as the lead

after, but as a director, because you and all the avenues to come in a certain way, what sort of a told a certain way and is not a narrative. Yes, oh yes, but at the same time- and this is true from your profession as an actor- the advice we get, people is obviously you need to plan height. Tell things get a play. They tell the stories, got the compelling. You need your stories, not just facts and logical argument, but you better be yourself. Otherwise, it's nothing. How do you think about often tissue for an actor who, by definition, is not being themselves? I think not anticipate has to do with respect, for that a character is from his point of view is right. You can't play a villain from the point of view of his villainy. You have to play the villain from the point of view of from his point of view there's a rightness to what he's doing into his view of the world, and I can change like an American. It reacts. For example, you play a villain. You play white supremacist who and has some evolution?

so how'd you think about the two aspects of that role. Will you have to look at that, and this was David Mckenna whom it's his script and he was my close partner. We worked on it. We talked about the idea of american history: excess like an American off fellow or an American at bath, he's a general he's, a person who has enormous capacities, he smarties loyal to his family, but he has a real flaw, which is is dominated by his rage rain, and we really one look like the idea of rage. Just anger can be an incredibly destructive force that when you don't know where to put your age- and you aim in at the wrong targets

This is like, what's underneath very destructive patterns, you have to try to understand what that rages about and build a story where even the audience can see, even if they don't agree with it, where they have an understanding of what the underpinnings of this re jar so that they can see it as a tragedy when this person's brought low in some measure, this different access points for different characters, but it's not always their emotional history. Sometimes it's it's lily, their clothes or their physicality or the way they walk or their voice. You can. You can find your way in different ways somewhere theirs. I got an anchor into the authenticity. What is the relationship between intelligence intellect and good? Acting when I talk to young actors, one things I say, as you have to be literate, you can't like flowed along on the cruise control of thinking that, like tat,

and is the only thing that good actors have because honestly, good actors or a diamond does- and there are a lot of good actors who aren't famous actors when you could write- and I mean this- is a compliment you could write along budgetary essay on any character you ve played. Why didn't you see on the screen with great nuance and no historic reference and how it connects to the audience? And we ve been doing some of that today? Does one have to have that to become a great act? Well, I think a certain fluency with the dimensions of your craft rate and something that I used to like raw. My eyes, like people would say like will, Robert in euros in intuitive actor, he's not in intellectual actor, and I was like have you worked with relevant Do you have any idea how he works? What the hell are you talking about? You know I do your time, but, like he began

in an analytic framework. I've worked with him twice like he begins like a newspaper reporter, if not intuitive, he begins with notes with research with questions a gazillion questions, his famous fur investigatory work, analytical work is also a great drama, tragical mind. He looks at the peace he talks to the director. What's the shape of the thing, how does it work? He contextual alive, things all of that goes on before the entering in and I dont know a great actor who doesn't begin analytically before they go into what I'd call the space of trying to get in an intuitive muscular kind of relationship with the performance. I just don't know any sweet actor who doesn't work from an intellectual frame first is another way of saying that there should be no such thing as a good, intuitive actor. I think a lot of times intuition. The ability to act unconsciously within a situation has to do

with this kind of crazy imaginative act of having a so absorbed in assimilated, the imaginary world that you own. There you are literally in your mind, almost like living within it in all its detail, and so you get to the point where you talk about authenticity, you're, just responding out of the deep well of understanding of the whole thing right and then, of course, there's just those things. The instrument of his voice. The expressions knows things are sort of ephemeral, individual magic, but I legitimately I don't know, and the idea that an actor wouldn't Reed plays see films understand that different things. They have different style and they call on different tools. Sets you can't stroll into a common brothers movie and bring the same approach

that. You would bring to doing a filmmaker marrying. His reacts, a fire you, you know what I mean like. They need people who understand like the language of their types of films. It be like coming to build a table with the wrong having the wrong screwdriver. You know, I mean you ve gotta, be, I think, somewhat nimble, yogi craftsmen. You said something else about the new movie Motherless Brooklyn. Then I want to ask you about you said you can experience viscerally what we lost when we look corrupt people move unchecked, and you asked the question: what is our core national character? are we going to make heroes out of bullies and prioritize the achievements of power, or are we going to us That heroism means having empathy for people struggle to talk, but that a little bit is at the central issue of our day. I think it's pretty close these days. I think we have this huge, overarching issue. The global community has this shaggy,

Tick, monolithic challenge of our generation, which is environmental sustainability. I think we're deep into a crisis of our own making. That, though, acknowledge, I think by the majority, is still not being acted on by the powerful minority and to me that almost supersedes everything cause. It's like all our GEO, political and cultural conversations or like people having an argument at a dinner table, while the house burns and collapses on their head, it's pretty stupid but I think in a U S, domestic framework in and also by the way in Europe in Latin America, it's like the median line of history that we thought we had kind of moves away from certain very base things. We went through the twentieth century and dealt with like imperialistic wars and dealt with like huge wars against fascism and totality.

It is a bit like our grandparents. Our parents would say: will the one thing we're not can ever do again, his romance autocratic bullies, we're not gonna fall in love with Like Mussolini, again or people like that, and we're doing it an alarm the percentage of our populist, for whatever reasons are affecting their sense of fear resentment, talked about anger, marginalization. The bully has play again and this is rather remarkable. It's rather remark to live in a moment of feeling ourselves snapped back to that median line of like really base impulses that we thought we had left behind. Is the solution part to push back on the bully into bully back the boy,

or to unmask the bully or those amassing. Certainly I mean unasked push back. I got a really lovely letter about this film from Tony cushioned or who I revere, I think, is one of, if not the great dramatic writer in modern American, theater and film, and if this film flops I'll still have this letter from tony cushioning, then you'll have to Pakistan have despite us that no doubt the right there that they will be next to each other in the discharge for one I'm feeling love but he saw something that I was delighted in which it is simply that the form like the urban war, the thing which I think really does have in this capacity, that's like as much as art can ever contribute. I think this impulse to say hey where a man cons we'll go along for a while, but we know there's stuff going on and if it starts to get out of bounds. You're gonna hear from US got it, but a lot of new Argos into a very cynical plays Chinatown. You know, she's ends up with

bullet in her eye and he's muttering to himself do as little as possible do as little as possible. You know it it. That's not the only response like cynicism, in an acceptance of the idea that there is power that we can contend with, is not what we need right now, and I think I like the idea, if in a did you know, lonely theoretic detective can get off his ass and lift his head out of his own, very legitimate struggle and be inspired to like stand up against forbidden. What's our excuse? Look, it's not like people in America have been tested before, but a different kind of test. Yeah mental too for the same. No definite can you engage mean indulge me in a quick thought experiment. Yet if we were to make a movie or a series about the use, attorney's office and ask it is not in your capacity as a writer director actor, your father, was an assistant use turning the federal prosecutor just think about making such a thing thrilling, good question: I

for a now. Now I think, come I mean there have been some, compelling dissections of what I call the world of law, litigation. I mean the hook of all great mill. You storytelling is that there is a rich bed of great variation and stories of the guys. By definition, I think I mean, if I think, back to the years my dad was a prosecutor in your turn, his office, like I can name a dozen cases that are so memorable that I remember him from being between eight and twelve years old and that I still ask him about right leg. He sobbed cases in a dream, literally he he had people fake heart attacks on the stand he had so many things happen that that's the core of it is, I think it's it's stories and I think some stories that unveil aspects of sort of,

the way that people behave that are hard to believe you should do it. I think I think, there's your eyes. Are you in waiting here and I'm thinking like wait, a second billion it's done really well and any it's just about DE bag finance hears what about, actual leg fighter, but but I will have your people comment. I think, federal if I think, of federal prosecutors as fighter pilots. I think of like that is my dad's, like era as wing leader in in a fighter squadron it was that intense and thrilling. You now know it's quite a thing: it's it's quite a thing,

I think that the people who are real public servants and real, really devoted the law enforcement in that particular part of our system are right. Now, a really important part of the bulk work that we have against encroachment into, like the rule of law. Being decimated to the point that we, you know, we have people acting like we're in a banana republic and there's no accountability. My biggest fear is that there won't be like what I would call perk, walk level, accountability for crimes, and I think, if it gets a passive deals, get cut. You have the same problem. You have that to me the biggest failing of the tarp you know at the end of the financial crisis was that there was no adjustment to the risk smiling because they gave him a hundred cents on the dollar, and even people and finance will say it was stupid not to make the bank's take a haircut. There were like well. Why not do it again? Could we got everything out of it and I think in this situation we have serious salts going on against the rule of law and if, if we let it have an Ec Sony, unlike

just go over him, be quiet and we'll will forget all about this, like I think, that's not accept the more I now I think we need. We need some weeds and accountability cause. We got people flagrantly violating like the law. Here's a question that about a lot of people have thought about. As a lawyer and a prosecutor, someone who were four member of Congress and its work. put in the country, and that is how to persuade people to a different point of view and, as I mentioned before, and trial embassy of facts, you have logic, but you also have stories and some things change in the country very quickly, comparatively speaking people's views about same sex. And marriage equality change role to be quickly and it was not through argument about the constitution. I think it was a little bit through we're getting to know. Folks were not like themselves it. How do you think both as someone who, I think I know. Well, intellectual, but also someone who puts stories on the screen? What is

understanding, based on your acting experience as to how you make people's changed their minds or evolve. A component of it is like falling Malcolm Gladwell theory that expertise comes from ten thousand hours whenever right, I think younger and younger generations, are living with what I would call a healthy level of exposure, more broad minded there more broad minded younger and that learning that learning that comes from exposure and familiarity creates comfort and creates a sense of the commonality, as opposed to like that, is harder to manipulate those people into calling something alien that they know is an alien. I also just think. Unfortunately, I think what one things that's happened is a certain amount of people have had their fears, stoked there being talk down to and this is part of what gets raised in my film- is that the painful charade of heroes of the public, who actually hey people- and I think this is

not as broad minded is, where you're getting it's a little bit more of a Tutsi response, but I think that people need they need. It pointed out to them that their getting played that the people that their conferring a kind of a heroic value on actually despise them. are using them there being manipulated and distracted with a lot of things that non affect their lives, while the things that do affect their lives are being dismantled around them for the benefit of corporate interests. Basically, sometimes I think we don't do a good enough job, that human empathy that you're talking about reaching out to people and making them know that their heard it is important, but I think it's also really important to point out that the people who are actually that they should be scared of the people,

They ought to be scared of are the ones above them who are playing them and highlight the ways that their being manipulated and laughed at in essence, treated like copper, tops mind mind for their votes, while their fed the cheap synthetic of alignment with their anger. You know and its sometimes I think when you talk about being unmasked, I dont think we ve done a good enough job at an masking regally without fear, unmask, ing and calling out what these things are. Now our were sitting within kind. Fall out of of being too tolerant, pretty long we're getting there film in writing, journalists whistle was inside, so hopefully some of that will take place. I agree, and I think, first and foremost, this film, I really did set out to sort of like making

those characters. That's memorable that I loved growing up. I set out to make one of those films that a romantic experience did to me. It's like worth going to the cinema to see because it like I said so well, I a really been taken through a portal there's a level of craft here that just beautiful, to walk, hid hitting me on a grown up level. My grown up mind goes. I can't believe what I'm looking at and the music is hypnotizing in grade, and you know I got Tom. You are and went in Marseilles to play together and it is a really really great great slaughter and the Jackal again, but I also do I'm always happiest when I'm workin on anything that I feel like has some kind of residence with the times that were living in, and I hope this one does. Edward Norton Thank you for making the time. Congratulations on the film I've been a fan for years and years in yours, so this was a special treat for me, total pleasure and I love the discussions you have in here I think, are important. Thank you, sir.

the conversation continues for members of the coffee insider community to hear the statesmen bonus with Edward Norton and get the exclusive weekly CAFE insider podcast gotta cafe dot com, slash insider right now you can try a cafe insider membership free for two weeks per capita comp slash inside so I went in the programme this week about the show little bit so the three period ending with the last interview has, I think, yielded more input, more commentary, more emails about the nature of the interviews and the nature of the guests. Finally, the guests than any other three week period going back to the beginning of the show, We had George Conway, who Everyone knows and has become famous for being a fierce critic of the president, married to Kelly and Conway Day. We had gear DART us who write some provocative things about the elite and about the region.

Country about the dramatic limitations of charity and then last. we had Cameron Douglas son of Michael Douglas, grandson of Kirk Douglas, who my office prosecuted for drug trafficking crime and with respect to each of those people. We heard a lot from all of you and it's kind of encouraging, even though- People like the interviews and like the selection of guests and some people Didn'T- and it's part of I think the show growing a little bit bring folks to you who I don't fully agree with, and there may be a bit more provocative but who, I think, have important things to say with respect to the camp, Douglas interview he's been on a pre wide publicity to and maybe you saw him being interviewed by Diane, Sawyer and in other places, but I felt brought to the show was a perspective. On being someone who went to the system people really enjoyed the interview. I think over all most people did resonate with them lesser brine, Farley, tweeted, wasn't going to listen to the interview to cut up and everything else so glad I did without a doubt one of the best episode

I think, would remain was his voice, so raw and real thanks for one of your best episodes ever good luck. Cameron the people. I think we're kind of annoyed that he was given in our long platform on the pot cast rich white kid who messed up deserve what he got it maybe was treated better because he was a personal privilege other people commented that they didn't see? Contrition in his attitude, they seem kind of smug all those of your fair, some people said they were eyes that I was his friendly as I was when I think I was perfectly friendly with him. But the point was not. This, from down as the former use attorney whose office was responsible for sending him to prison in the first place, try to do here is to bring people on. If I disagree with him, I press them and then say what they have to say and it largely speaks for itself and I think that's tended to work its power also of my deeply held belief that we don't talk enough to people who are not like us and what could be more different from the former federal prosecutor. talking to the person on whose indictment was my own name. I give another example of Trying to adhere to this principle is past Sunday. I was again

in the past and Youtube Interview show of a person the probably allow people listen to the show dont like very much and We would very much he's on the other side of the ideological spectrum from them in his name is been Shapiro, Some people probably wondering why would I go and Ben Shapiro show when there is no one had been Shapiro, show a he invited me the eye. like. You know what he's got a lotta listeners he's got more, listen Since they tune, does and why Those listeners only here from conservatives why shouldn't does there is also hear from people with a different perspective. Why shouldn't? so be reaching out to people talking about the of law. Talking about issues of justice with huge ass audiences, who may not tune in to stay tuned or may not. Me on CNN, or may not read my book. I think that's a good thing and people should expand their horizons and think about all the kinds of ways you can communicate with. People disagree with you, because that's the only way, persuade people who disagree with you, and so maybe I persuaded a couple of people. Maybe some people have their eyes opened by common Douglas, maybe people have their views confirmed about the world and about the system by common Douglas. But that's all well and good. Conversation is good. Happy Halloween

Well, that's it for this episode of stay tuned, thanks again I guessed Edward Norton if you like. We do rate and review the show. An apple pie casts or wherever you listen. Every positive review help new listeners find the show send me questions about news politics, injustice to eat them to me at three Ferrara with the hashtag asked priest, or you can call me the message of six nine hundred and twenty four seventy seven thousand three hundred and thirty, eight that's sixty six thousand nine hundred and twenty four preet or you can send an email. day tuned Cathay Dotcom stay tuned is presented by cafe. The executive producer is tomorrow, supper the senior producers Errand Alden, the audio producer is David TAT ashore and a cafe Miss Carlyle, hearing, Julia Doyle, Calvin Lord David Calendar and justifies our music, is by Andrew Dust preparers stated