From cafe and the vocs media pack has network welcome to stay to humphrey bernard. I do not believe that, at the end of the day that people will look back upon this hope. This attempt to defraud the united states and overthrow democracy as anything, but what it is, which is a demagogic disgrace to our democracy, That's john avalon he's a senior political analysed in ankara CNN, where he appears only on the networks morning programme new day avalon spent is here at the intersection of politics and journalism, he's written. Several books advocating for political centralism. The more recently he's turned his focus to history. publishing works about some of america's most consequential presidents he's also, The rise of the extreme right wing in our own time from the tea party trump

We discuss why avalon remains optimistic, that the country can be united the indeed, legacy of george Washington's farewell address in whether we need a third political party in the. U S, that's coming up stay tuned. This episode has brought you buy directv stream, directv stream. Is you the live tv? You love? That means you can stay up to the minute on twenty four hour, live news from entertainment to current events. Wherever you are in the? U s, whether that's at home, on your tv or dreaming on the girl and you get your favorite live sports, so you can catch this seasons biggest games, get the best of live tv with directv stream. Get your tv to go,

at the wrecked evie dotcom from the moment at him. I tongue it's like my senses were straps. You, a high powered rocket rocket, was made of a memory from pillar. Then, just like that, I was ready to start my morning ass. The thing with, though it off your cream cheese. You don't just tasting, you feel it now. Let's get your questions. My favorite question from a listener this week is not quite a question but a statement. It comes from Sarah and county clear all the way in ireland. Who writes sorry to hear you have nothing to talk about this week. August is so dull. Thank you. Sarah thanks for asking questions and thanks Your comments have thanks for listening in a completely different time zones, so Obviously there are a lot of questions about the searches executed our logo what it means for former president from what it means for the justice department. How republicans

reacting with the law is what the policy is, what the tea leaves indicate Joyce vance, an eye on the cap inside of this week spent a good hour reacting to the news. From Monday evening, we ve taken it behind the pay, while all you have to do, is go to the following: lincoln: give your email You can listen to the erelong discussion. Gotta carried out come slash trump, that's cafe. Dot com its trump. But I'll talk about some of these issues now, because I've done repeated questions about them. One question that, A lot of comes from Amy Baskin, who writes, who signed up the fbi raid. In what specifically, where they looking for Well, if you listen to me, enjoy you'll, know that we take a little bit of umbrage at the word. Raided sounds pejorative in some way. The executed search warrants the which is approaching happens every day in federal. Uncle jurisdictions all over the country whose often the searches will a whole host of folks you'd. Have the line process peters who prepare them. The case agents that the fbi, who assist in the preparation of them, in fact,

an fbi agent, who will have sworn out an affidavit that sets forth the facts in support of a finding a probable cause that a crime has been committed. and that fruits are evidence of the crime will be located at the specific premises that are sought to be searched. Then you would have- supervisory level after supervisory level, given the stakes here, as I have said, for them, a couple of days. Almost certainly you would have had the blessing and sign off the attorney general merrick garland himself, not because its required, any rule or regulation that a search has to be prove by the aging when it relates to a private citizen Donald trump. Is that, because of the nature, the inquiry, the amount of scrutiny to bear homeric garland him health is gonna, be the one accountable, in fact Kevin Mccarthy. I think said that he planned to investigate the search and all other things relating to the investigation of the classified documents. If and when he takes over a speaker of the house Thank you told merrick, garland, clear your calendar. So in those circumstances

I think almost certainly merrick garland will have not only signed off, but probably even read the affidavit application materials because it makes As for him to have done that, most importantly, who did not sign off and the fbi searches was fighting for anyone in the white house. As was credibly reported, by more than one use worse. This past week, apparently job and the white house staff were surprised to learn. The searches and moral, a and only learned about them from social media. When the news broke, what are they looking for? Well, we don't know precisely what they're looking for, but all the reporting suggests that they're looking for evidence of violation of one or more crimes, possibly the destruction of government records, possibly the removal of classified information today, they find, those actual things notwithstanding the turning over fifteen boxes of materials some months ago. That's evidence of a crime. They might also be looking for communications. It might also be looking for evidence of destruction of documents in whatever form that might take, but will no more.

that if we ever see the search warrant information- most importantly with respect to your question of who signed off on these for he was a federal judge, most likely a federal magistrate judge. So someone in a different branch of government outside of the department of It is obviously outside of the white house who made an independent judgment that the facts set forth in the affidavit, supported to finding a probable cause that there was evidence of a crime at those particular locations. So you have internal controls at the department of justice. Even external, independent control and all of those things together means there is a lot of scrutiny brought to bear on the search before it even happen. this cost, comes in a tweet from Kenny paxton, who says weight can the d J use any evidence they uncovered during their search, even its ford. From crimes than the original warrant, hashtag aspirate, how I stated yeah they can

Under the plain view, doctrine leading to the fourth amendment of the constitution. If law enforcement agents under duly authorize warrant go in, search for something so, for example, narcotics in an apartment in process of searching for narcotics in the places specified by the worn and authorized by the warrant. They also see a pistol or ammunition. They can search and sees those items as well. I suppose the spirit of your question relate to the speculation that may be It's really going on here is the fbi, in the department of justice may be saying they're looking for classified document. Information in violation, Those statutes, but they're, really looking forward to really hoping to find, incidentally, is essential. Two january sex, the insurrection, so the comic so things and they're not going on a deterrent, elegant and going in places that word authorized by the warrant does not allow I think it's also a little cute by half for at this level and with this kind of fraud search to be playing games with praetor

In wanting information relating to one crime but stating to a federal judge, you looking for evidence of a different crime, I don't think it works out. One possibility is Maybe some of the classified information, soulier. Sensitive information could relate two communications regard in january, sixth, and what president from did or did I do with communications, he had soared it's possible? There's overlap in that regard, but you know I don't think the speculation they're using. This serves as a pretext to find out. Relating to january sex is re plausible, the question comes at an email from Christie and it's a point of some confusion and I'm not posit I have this right, so the lawyers out there you, let me know the question is: how do we know what from could be charged with was trapped notified as part of this? for it. So there's a lot of people out there who are making a correct observation for series of objects one is the search warrant in its component parts. The request for the search and all the common

in parts of that no mention what those aren't a moment is not becoming public through the justice department. Dick. mom about that those things are sealed the prison, premises are searched. The prisoners there at the time gets a copy of one of the components. The search for itself, which is often just a one page document signed by a judge that makes clear to them in his property is being searched. There's legal authorization, judicial approval of the search in there. also the document that specifies that particular locations can sometimes it's not the whole property, but particular some parts of the property. The package that goes to the judge, not just a sword, we're in itself, but also an affidavit of referred to that earlier which is a sworn statement by law enforcement off that sets forth based on personal or other knowledge, the fact supporting a finding a probable cause in soldiers consumers have understood of new york The practice is also to have an application and the application, along with the affidavit it sometimes make a reference to the particular stature, whose violations or potential violations are being in,

to get it. I have not seen that. I could be wrong about this. I have not seen that the search for itself identifies a particular statutes specifically and it's a search warrant that has left behind with the person is says, are being searched when you asked the question was trapped notified as part of the search, what he could be charged I'm not sure this necessarily true, based on the standard form of the search warrant. Restrictions, there's an attachment to the warrant, sometimes called I shouldn't be, and sometimes that document does less the crimes and the statutes that are being investigated. They can varies by jurisdiction. But I, like some learning on this at the alot of people, are stating in a blanket fashion, the trump must know the statutes that are being investigated. I don't know, but that this is certainly true. I don't know it the practices in federal court in florida, so I'd love to be enlightened on it there's some confusion,. This question comes in an email from Jefferson who writes I'm hearing that have trump ends

being charged in connection with taking classified documents he may not be able to run for president again is that true. Now This is getting a lot of attention, just like lots of other things have gotten attention over the last number of years, people who are opposed to present from politically are looking for any avenue by which other than that a box he can be prevented from being present or taken. A presidency and as we saw when he was president people kept talking about the twenty fifth amendment, that some basis for this speculation has a particular statute that might be among the ones being investigated by the justice department in that Eighteen usc tenuous code sections, Seventy one which seems relevant here and probably one there looking out and probably is one that specified in a search warrant affidavit and application in section twenty. Seventy one makes it a crime, essentially If someone who has custody of government documents will lee and unlawfully conceals removes mutilates obliterates, falsified or destroy them seems, like

applause, a plausible scenario here, depending on what the evidence ultimately shows now that statute, which is a maximum sentence of only three years also says that if the defence whose convicted is crucial. in a federal office. They shall forfeit the office and more relevant to your point. They shall quote, beat qualified from holding any office under the united states. End quote if you really the play language, the statute sounds like no. A simple plan get the evidence. Charge trump between seventy one convict him, and then you have an argument that he can become president again. It can behold office under the united states. Again, the problem is that in future untested statute does at least one case that cast some doubt upon that statute and the regional problem. In the minds and writings have a lot of experts. Is you have this other thing? That's not it Actually that's above a statute that call the constitution and the constitution sets forth very plainly what the quality genes are for the presidency. It doesn't talk necessarily, but all the other offices, but certainly of the presidency.

The statute is generically seems applicable to federal office the more persuasive argument as much as you may not want to hear it is that in a conflict between the constitution, which arguably contains all the qualifications required for the presidency and a stand You a mere statute that suggests A conviction under that statute disable someone from becoming the president the constitution, winds and is the x. Of source of authority for what the qualifications should be for becoming president I had been. Some experts have opined on this in one way or another. According to a new york times, article analyzing, the issue, which is quite interesting, and I commend it to your attention. There's a suggestion. Former attorney general Michael, be new when, discussing the applicability of twenty seventy one, not to donald trump at some years ago. The Hillary Clinton Who is also investigated for issues willing, declassified emails may be improperly stored or handled. He suggested this may be something that would prevent her from serving as president, but also court

the article, Michael being the you thought better of that analysis and said he believes he was wrong. So we'll see what happens very very, very far away from a discussion or litigation over the presidency and the ability to hold office. We just had a george. It's gonna take a long time. I think some to soar what they have their probability their investigating to do run. The customer election there, through the justice department, wants to be kept but what actions are takes within ninety days or sixty days of an election. In that time, threshold is coming up, but at some point in the future we can revisit it if we ever get. The we'll be right back in my conversations with John evelyn,

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They create a more efficient work. Environment used code tuned to get fifteen percent off click. Ups, massive unlimited plan for a year. Meaning you can start reclaiming your time for under five dollars a month sign up today. It click up dot, com and use code tuned hurry. This offer end soon The John avalon. As an author columnist and commentator he's written books about george Washington and Abraham lincoln also the former editor in chief of the daily beast and while still twenties. He was a chief speechwriter for them. new york city mare, woody giuliani, he's not so fond of any more job avalon, welcome to the show great to be with you break our pleasure long. Where do

so we were going to talk about a million different things. I should note for the audience when you get right to it. No chit chat with you for today, John. We are record this in the three p m our on tuesday, august, ninth and less than twenty. Four hours ago, we got worse from none other than donald trump himself, that a prevent the agents and executed a warrant for documents and other materials, admiral logo florida. And so I ve been asked a lot questions about this at multiple including on our shared network cnn. So I'm gonna take a break from that and ask you some questions how's that let's do it in the middle ruler Russell take break you gotta, yeah, so I was there a lot of legal aspects to this. We can talk about if you want, but one of the stories emerging from the search, and we don't have. copy of the warrant, we don't have a copy of the application of a copy, the affidavit because with the application cheating,

how much evidence there is all we know. Is it a federal magistrate, judge or district judge its possible sir? off, on the searches based on probable cause presented to the judge by. Justice along with the fbi, but apart from little story there's a very true troubling political story? What do you make of all republican leaders, mostly trump supporters, but some of them trumpet jason. decrying, the search without knowing more information and together with that question

Tell us what you think cause you're, a keen observer of this. What do you think about the potential for violence or other bad activity on the part of trump supporters here? Well, you know this is one of those moments that dumb, you can feel the history and the present tense, and I think he skated to to where the puck's going, I'm afraid, which is the the question of political violence. Last week I was, I was hosting new day of filling in for our colleague john Berman, and I noted in a very busy newsweek and that Chris ray had given testimony F b. I director saying that the threats of political violence had accelerated and we're now, basically at twenty four seven thing: three sixty five and that's clear,

a departure from our best traditions. It's not anything resembling normal. We ve had moments of of intense political violence in our r, our past, obviously in and even within living memory. But that's the kindling. That's underlying our politics. Right now and donald trump has shown that he is more than willing to to fan the flames, but the fact that republicans in the senate. Some people who are not known of being the hard core trumpery in the house, are getting on the bandwagon. talking about the Biden regime comparing to a marxist dictatorship in the case of Marco rubio, that's really loathsome stuff and it's dangerous because there's a downstream effect. Do you think that sure clamouring for an investigation of the desert from an already when there's no charge lodged against donald trump. We don't know what the

the search have been, we don't know what the basis for the search is decent are doing it because you think it's more politics within the context of playing The base yes, but that's the fundamental problem I mean all my work tends to be focused on the question: the problem of how to combat hyper partisanship and polarization it's what all my books were about at the end of the day. It's what most of my calmness about and that's the thing I'm most concerned about, and the disconnect between the g o p, base in particular, and the general electric is kind of the original sin from which out of our our current problems flow. So what's good for them, a p politicians in terms of winning their closed, partisan primaries is utterly disconnected from the question of what most representative, the american people as a whole, let alone how to solve problems or unite the nation, and that's what we're seeing Kevin Mccarthy desperately wants to be speaker. He needs to keep donald trump on

on in his good graces, so he'll say or do whatever it takes, including threatening the attorney general with impeachment its short term thinking did, any these folks care that it appears fairly clearly the Joe Biden and the white house had nothing to do with authorizing were blessing the searches, the reporting that I credit, makes clear that the binding only found out about the execution of the searches and moral logo. from social media or the press them. So and yet, as you mentioned, Go there's all this talk about the vine regime, the boy fbi by the way the by the fbi, led by chris re, trumpet pointy does not hampered by downturn but not hampered by Joe Biden. Or Barack Obama or anyone else and someone who was touted mightily at the time of his appointment by Donald which vacancy by the way came about because trump fired the prior guy, you didn't do think any that make us, because the larger question is.

we should matter for me question what does it say, better discourse that people can just blindly make assertions about environment. When there's no evidence of it look. We are deep in bizarro world, that's not exactly news, unfortunately any more, and there is an entire echo chamber that is fundamentally resistant to facts, because that's the trade they made and, of course it should matter that the white house didn't know about this, and you know a lot of folks on the left not too long ago were complaining It's bitterly about merrick garland, saying that he wasn't moving aggressively enough, that he was too concerned about not politicizing the justice department, which you know. As our friend and colleague, Eli hoenig pointed out. You know bill Barr's justice department was enormously politicized, even though he resigned at the eleventh hour and because he wouldn't overturn the election at the ex president's request and facts matter,

and and and and at the other thing that matters is equal justice under law, and it seems to me that that's where we're at you know you can't have oh we'll see opinions you know it exonerating a sitting president from indictment, no matter what he might do, even as trumps large organ in court shoot someone on fifth avenue and then say that lying the law to an ex president is the violation of some some external code of conduct or risk polarization further. It very well might that's a real danger, but the core problem it seems to me is, is the right

when playing the rats and the left wing does. This is well just less effectually. The far left. You know the this. What what should guide decisions? It seems to me- and you you have- we are even greater experiential insight into this- is simply applying the law without fear or favour, and and and that's not too much to ask in fact that sort of table stakes in a democratic republic and if we, if we are guided by that, we should be in a good place. But there are folks who want to ramp up who have a basic condition. The shock troops two to revert to conversations about civil war. That's incredibly dangerous and its least patriotic thing you can possibly imagine it put aside violence. The idea that people get riled up when their guy or their woman? If it's the case, it will remain. in the crosshairs of an investigation by the fbi or some other law enforcement agency I get around that it

some ways over the last number of years. I keep thinking kinds of cases are special and they move people. more than cases against congressmen, other senator or their governor, and they believe You know seventy eighty million people come vote for somebody. People really want Hillary Clinton to be president. They thought mistreated. On the other side, people hated her who were trump supporters and wander locked up and the inverse is true, often for donald trump. You know in a hurry. Wasted do any optimism. that so long as trump keeps doing things and enjoy jeanne activity, that legitimately draws law enforcement scrutiny, whether its in georgia or in manhattan we're in d c or anywhere else. That there's any hope for any kind of unity and- and you know, trust

in government that I think we used to have more of an ultimately yes, but with a couple of key caveats. First, all the question optimism, I'm a big fan of what is, unfortunately, an apocryphal, lincoln quote which is I'm an optimist cause. I don't see the point in being anything else It was I who is there really do you know what I I don't. I don't know, who actually said it, but it sums up,

I think my general point of view and end of think does a good job of expressing lincoln sort of balance between optimism, fatalism, which is a very american balance. You know we have to be optimistic about the future and there's no point in in being fatal listing. That said, we also need to be realistic about the larger forces were dealing with one. The reasons I like studying history and applied history in particular and try to bring it into my journalism is cause it imposes perspective and in, and we can take some comfort from the fact that we ve been through far worse before, while also recognising that tribal politics when tribal politics enter into the arena. That's one thing get ugly, in fact, where we are fevers, break cults, ultimately and ultimately, usually badly. Sometimes fevers don't sometimes fevers cause death. What god you're been dark now,

Are you all right, great John mccain joke it? How did you know it's always darkest right before it goes completely black, only black I'm not always feeling sunny and looking up, with you and everybody was mrs pack has knows that whenever possible. I strike notes of optimism, I'm still optimistic about the country. They gave me my family, so and it had been moved me every day, even when things don't seem great or registry, but sometimes fevers don't break in and it s the brought a question to you is, as I say, if history and someone who's a student, fist, he's always asked to predict the future like this is america fundamentally changed or not base in the last few years. Will let let let let's ask ourselves the question by applying the lessons of history, you know one of the fundamental problems with the weapon eyes: nostalgia of phrases like make america

great again, as you have to ask yourself what when was amerika great. What is that period that you are hearkening by two. Usually it has to do with people's childhood when the world seemed simpler, because they were right, my grandparents, where immigrants to his country and like you, you know their their experience in the appreciation they had for this country was fundamentally formative for me. because they had something to compare it to. But let's say somehow, your gauge, for when things were great was oh, I don't know, but does the sixtys and seventys there's an exactly. What are we talking about her? I mean you know political violence and assassinations were rapid anti government. Violence was a real problem, particularly on the left. People forget about that. You know went went need open, nixon in part, because there was so much civil unrest and then, of course, compounded by watergate and the downward trend in d

for us that that created in addition to to vietnam. So what the hell are we talking about and of course you know won't, I can't say we're we're talking about here- is to be no the guy again for a moment, you you, our people, you haven't you an appeal, yet strife you had me inequality in many ways, and you have now, but I'm I'm young to remember and a little bit older than you are, but when I- it has mark a fundamentally changed one, in which I'm asking the question is in so far as this is the first time that there that I think and I could be wrong- I could be corrected. First and that I think, the Peaceful transfer of power was in jail, pretty and may be in jeopardy again in the not too distant future notwithstanding the upheavals of the night,

in the sixties, retired civil war. If you want that feels different to me, what he did is it is and and that's why we should be wide eyed about about the danger we face, the founding fathers. When you know I did a book one george Washington's farewell address and and one things I did as I looked at at how remarkable was the founding fathers tried to apply the lessons of history in the creation of our documents as imperfect people and as imperfect as those documents were right and they specifically drew on the lessons of the ancient greek and roman republics and how they fell, and they tried to build fail, safes that addressed those checks and balances, separation of powers, etc, etc, and what has developed over time having a a a chief executive, even though they were very conscious of the dangers of populace

if the dogs and having a president who would threaten the peaceful transfer of power, is a founding fathers level nightmare, but they did not anticipate that a national politics would be so polarized that the party his party, would would would go along with that, after an attack on the cap right that that seem to violate basic concepts of institutional self interest. But of course, the founding fathers you know I mean the constitution doesn't mention political parties. We forget that yeah, you know so so, but but one of the things that Washington focused on in his farewell address, one of his chief warnings is the dangers of what we would call hyper partisanship. They called faction. So this is, I mean this is a a a fundamental view, arrests that has infected our body politic. That has destroyed democratic republics in the past. So now I'm not trying to be pollyanna about this at all. I'm just saying it's an outlier and I dont think that in the fullness of time I think

No rarely does life, give you very clear, black and white in oh right and wrong Trumps lies about the election, MS attempt to overturn the alive in a systematic way. Exploiting people to do it ultimately culminating in attacking tackler capital, is one of those times that still a jump ball and the structures of our politics make politicians afraid to call him out who know better again. This goes back to you know where the rigged system of redistricting closed partisan primaries all those litanies and that I rail against all too regularly on air and in print yet but yeah. That's why we ve got a problem, it's very serious and we need to deal with it in in in the near term and, frankly, mid term,

and we need to learn the right lessons, but but I do not believe that at the end of the day, you know that that people will look back upon this hoax. This attempt to defraud the united states and overthrow a democracy as anything, but what it is his eye, a demagogic disgrace to our democracy, and one ask you some more about washington and in particular about his farewell address self verse question is a hard won, whose farewell address was better washington's or trumps I guess I guess in fairness, the second, the second one didn't didn't, do a farewell address. Did he know he he he didn't. He I I think shook his fist at the air while getting on a helicopter to morrow logger. Look I mean

come on get off? My long he is is, is not the first president to skip the inauguration of his successor. John Adams wasn't particularly excited when Thomas jefferson took over and and more notably into the point andrew johnson stormed out of town, what are they gonna, while its gates It's been a while. You know your you know what the case Andrew Johnson, I mean. You know that the previous clear contender where's, president of all time. You know it did so again. We know history This perspective in a mark twain is to say, history done repeat, but sometimes it rhymes, and so I think part of Our job is to listen for the rhyming, sadly, no, sadly, no no, I know I know it was mark twain, but we're talking about the farewell yeah and you know he talked about the theme of your work being about hyper partisanship and how that's bad the theme of my work.

has been the importance not just of of good laws and regulations and policies and institutions and constitutions, but also people in and You george washington, made the very very fraught decision. To leave office mean hence the fair, Well, it wasn't, he wasn't term limited back, then didn't happen until couple of centuries? or almost an of people's lives and wondering what your view is. Is that argue the most important and profoundly helpful present she'll decision in history to step down after two terms voluntarily great question I think you'd have to say the answer is yes, because he was a president without precedent and that he was acutely aware of that and the thing about about washington for all his flaws, because, All are all r r r R historic euros are are flawed because their human, that's. What makes them interesting is that he understood-

that he was forging a national character through the exercise of his own character, and you know he didn't even one run for a second term. He was convinced that one thing washington we wanting hamilton egyptian could agree upon. Is that of washington left after his first term that the nation could have devolved civil war, then so he stayed on somewhat. Regretfully, but after the second term he was determined to go home to mount vernon? This wasn't in our a cincinnatus style pretension. This was real deal, but the repercussions voluntarily, leaving power, that's what was truly revolutionary. That's the second! Now the revolution and there's a great quote from Jefferson that uses the upper graph too. That book wash em, it's farewell where he says an unfair phrasing it is due to the moderation, virtue and character of one man. This revolution was not ended, as most others have been

by basically a new form of tyranny being established on the embers of the old it was in. That was lincoln's to Washington's example and if mccullough, just dot he's one of my literary heroes and one of the things he'd say about the writing of history and the lessons of history is that it all comes down two character and there are moments, let's face it, where we have tested the proposition that characterise destiny in recent years dinner it looked like that ball was gonna, who's, gonna, was gonna, go who's, gonna, go fair right here and that's the problem I think we see that ultimately, does you know in your crystallizing. I think very, very artfully this. This problem in this tension between having good laws and constitutions versus having people of character who operate within the un? of discretion. They have to do that Some of laws in washington was wired to step down people,

And have been necessarily surprised if he had not step down that's the way of powerful men since it virtually back. Then how far have we come from that idea that you voluntarily relinquish power, Two people who may be don't even agree with because the peaceful transfer power is important to today. So I want to put this in perspective because we can't lose sight of the fact that donald trump is still the outlier, but the conditions that he exploited. I think I have to do with cautionary tales about how people are often cowed by people in power and the prospect of holding onto power, particularly when they ve been convinced, that holding on to power as a matter of life or death not living to fight another day, which is democracy, is predicated upon. We have established over decades a a a hyper partisan information ecosystem that has Monde,

ties people's anger and anxiety and resentment in such a way that people were predisposed to believe that they couldn't possibly lose an election, because that would be akin to losing their way of life and and and that's the psychological precondition civil war- that's what we saw in the eighteen, sixty that I read about it in my book, lincoln and fight for peace. That's would soon crow, really dangerous about this structure. That's been put it's not just social media and the hyper partisan media ecosystem, which I think twisted our national character a bit, but also then, the structures that have been put in place in partisans but the rig system redistricting the decline in the presence of competitive general elections those partisan primaries all which create incentives, structure where people are afraid to speak up because they don't think they're ever gonna, have to face a general electric. All those things concern

fired and donald trump took advantage of it in a way that people thought was impossible because we have been a nation of laws. People have held up now, might pence stood up, a bunch of people stood up at a critical moment and stop this from occurring in the last chance. the moment the last possible moment. But now we ve got a really apply the lessons of recent history and make fundamental reforms, also recognising the importance of teaching character right. And an institutions, and instead of structures that reward people of character, because you know might tenses political travails or ever of the situation. We ve gotten ourselves in sorgen up work. Our way out we're gonna have to defend level demand, see and strengthen liberal democracy at home and abroad that our generation's responsibility now, but we have to accept a clearer. We'll be right back with more of my conversation with John avalon after this

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start your new language learning journey today with babel right now save up to sixty percent off your subscription. When you go to babble, dot, com, slash tuned, that's babble, dot, com, slash tune for up to sixty percent off your subscription babel language for life. I'm alex heath and I'm co hosting land of the giants, this season matter, the company formerly known as facebook. So far, we ve told the story of mark Zuckerberg journey to reaching billions of users from the creation of the new speed. To the acquisition of instagram, but such massive scale that comes at a price in europe comes episodes will examine how the company has had to grapple with the uncomfortable side of its power from reckon with former president donald trump, I think in the end the thoughts, but if you want to start

saying that had for government com threatened to deploy force to restore poured that sex are really quite a morrison present to the harms its own technology amplifies or line harmful sensational content. Fundamentally, does better under user will Zuckerberg high stakes pivot to building the matter, verse work and if it does. What does that mean for all of us follow land of the giants wherever you listen to hear new episodes? Everyone's. Can I ask you this question, and maybe this goes to some of the polarization we have an end. The short version of the question is: do we care about politics too and the long overdue. The question is: No, we say every four years anything more more recently it's been a true statement, but will your democratic,

Republican. You say this is the most important election of your lifetime and, as a matter of political will, rick and maybe sometimes in good faith. But not always. We say that re election is existential. An you pointed out before the people sometimes think that life, as we know it will, will end if the other side wins, the election is at that wrong. Dessert contribute two how polarized we are that we as part of our normal traditional politics. We tell everybody the entire universe and the way that we understand life to be as americans will be forever and irrevocably altered. If our side. Doesn't when it's not a mistake, I think it has been a mistake. In the n n n n b risa pass. We look in the rearview mirror of history because some of these elections in oh you, you look back at at at at at home,

mama came even with pale and on the ticket you look at our own bomber romney. You know this was centre right versus centre left. Obviously, you know truism behind that isn't just the coercive sort of emotional appeal, but elections. Our democracies make decisions about the trajectory they will be on, so every election will determine the trajectory to some extent for the next four years, and so therefore there a real urgency. It's our chance to be heard. What's different is, if you have some one on the ballot who is trying to overturn democracy. has demonstrated record of doing so. That's excess steps different, which is why we ve got to and I'm getting near the robot if you're the other way to put it, is, do have we politically in the past. Have we cried wolf too much? Yes, yes, I I think we have- and I think that's an important point and the second point you ask: do we care about politics too much I mean I'm someone who loves politics, because I believe its history in the present tense. That's the lens

which I see it, that said the tribal politics or when we get into problems the decline of other elements of people's identity. That used to supersede partisan affiliation in perhaps the decline of of religion and peoples. to give people a sense of purpose, but religion was render unto Caesar is a separate thing right. You didn't blur church and state. It wasn't until the nineteen million, the nineteen the election really beginning united. Seventy six that six, that juggles became politically involved in active that that there is a sense in modern life, and I think it's a backlash to globalization are that people feel unmoored without a sense of purpose, but finding that purpose in power

is in politics, as opposed to liberal democracy, writ large ride damage being of a vigorous citizen in a democratic republic. That's where we get into real danger because love those folks are being manipulated. People polarized for profit. I dont know that people adequately appreciate that there are people who polarized for profit, financial, political and and and were reaping the whirlwind it more different about now then, before weren't or and all the ingredients and elements of this level of polarization baked into the americans do that for at least a century we have

civil war, a century and a half ago. So what's different now well, there there are million differences. I mean one of the reasons why I think talk about a second civil war is dramatically overwrought. We don't have an issue like slavery, a fundamental contradiction to our our deep spies. That's dividing the states. We don't have state militias that can be militarized and weaponized in conventional conflict along battle lines. That's not to say we should dismiss the dangers. We are playing with fire to be clear, but there are fundamental differences and I think it's very clear.

That one of the core contributing factors, in addition to the ways that the incentive structures have been put in place by the parties to try to undermine majority democracy. Democracy, Jane Merrick, great piece in the new yorker, encourage everyone to read. I've covered redistricting fights and states like ohio extensively. Where were you know, parties carve up maps in such a way that their no longer have to be responsive to the will of the majority of people? That's incur really dangerous, but I think that the compliments of the rise of social media balkanization amplification, the most extreme voices? Conspiracy, there's voices, because the algorithms are organised, Monetize engagement and people are more engaged when their agitated and and and and lies travel faster than the truth. Unfortunately, these are things that we need to act. Our control of human as human beings on codes

I did with the rise of donald trump in such a way because his natural mode of communicating was perfectly suited to that medium right. Ah, you know where it where his conspiratorial, confrontational, hyperbolic hyper partisan appeals were amplified dramatically, so I think we need to not only strengthen the electoral counteract. We need algorithm reform and fundamental ways in there's been bipartisan support for that in the past, although it hasn't past yet those things I think or existential on the way they have a balkan ized, our country, in in a much more fragmented way, even though we were in the past and you could trace back and you can look at the decline of the fairness doctrine immediately talk radio immediately supersedes music aware there are key moments in this new gingrich the weight. The rules here in place too. Undermine a more unified style of of guns. Some congress. You know there are. There are key things we can learn from we're. Gonna have to undo those things we are going.

We have to address them to remember the essential wisdom of the country, which is e, pluribus unum out of many one. We did emphasize the things that unite us, not divide us in our politics and our so are social media, and particularly does not do that. Does the opposite right now, podcasts they're a force for good? Yes clearly, but it isn't. But can I just make a series of one on top of that Jes shore and extended conversation about people, reasoning together, ideally with, with some meaningful disagreements. It's not all in amen, men quarter, people hype each other up into sort of a butt other, where they get to demonize. We note the same books but but an extended conversation is part of a strong civil society. That's very different, then demonizing,

people in two hundred and forty characters to maximize your reach, because you know that's how we gauge success, it's a very different thing at the risk of getting you in trouble with new management and cnn. Why why don't? We have extended conversations more often on cable news? Why why? Why can't you have me on for forty minutes and have a conversation like this? Why don't we do that? I I first of all I I do think that there are I think there is the room for it and ended. There should be more extended conversations, but you know I'll perry with referencing. My wife has a terrific shut. Sorry here, that's where I was going. I recommend Margaret hoover's firing line on pbs, because it's a true you know it's a half hour conversation, a contest of ideas that a civil and substantive and it's the only place on television that I'm aware of that. Does that and so, at the risk of you know,

but cheering on my bride, because she's, brilliant and beautiful and brightened and shining in every way. That's one of the things that show does and she's revived the william of buckley firing line tradition, but she's moved The directions consistent with her personality in pv, but that's part of the virtue We do have larger, extended civil conversations without shying away from disagreement symbols depends on civil discourse? Is a talk to the new guy talked to the new boss so I think other cruel you're gonna get under way to see and stuff, but I do think that chris understands it gets it in a fundamental way: sorry, it's a terrific show and very substantive and your wife is terrific. Thank you. I agree and we're going to have her on in some weeks to critique your performance today. I just went nuts over having your first stop, so you could do your business and then she'll critique it. I I you know what and then you'll get the better of that. But you know when Margaret mire on cnn together, one of things we here is because we do

I a that. We come at things from different perspectives. We often end up in the same place, but the mere function of people disagreeing agreeably. Ah, it is, I think, gives people hope You know- and I think we need more examples of that and our civil discourse, people who have disagreements but love each other in whatever form not love. Make may take I'm going back to my ancient greek here, but I got bay whatever in of that's what democracy depends upon an assumption of goodwill among fellow citizens. Even and perhaps especially when you disagree. The problem is, if some of those people in those tribes are not. sitting in good faith if the EU a disagreements about policy But then there are also bad. Faith lie about reality and about facts. Whether its climate change or the election or something else, and so your some. It's not just tribalism right we ve had tribes for a long time since the beginning of the republic. As you mentioned the family,

Fathers talked about the dangers of factions and tribes by which they meant largely political parties but I think more reese, maybe I'm wrong, and maybe, if I lived in eighteen forty three, I would have a different view. It seems like there's more bad faith about real facts it about reality. Then there used to be. compounded with that you have the ability to do so. Eight more widely and quickly bad faith lies than ever before, and that combination can be beautiful and great if you're, promoting the truth and virtuous,

citizenship, but it can be the opposite. You people are acting in bad faith is bad faith. Our problem is part of the problem and its again because of the incentive structures. You know we underestimate how the hyper partisan economy as itself corrupting how people of monetize their various tribes, their separate economies that they're looking for the d, not just the the the d, the endorphin ranch of appealing to you, know that their their base, but but but the actual financial structures and careerists reason. to fall into line, and you know one of my favorite quotes is by vos love hovel. Who says you know it. You know it. Idiotic G creates the illusion of dignity and morals while making it easier to part with them. but it s all Jews, almost dinner highfalutin compared with just the crass career, isn't that has led many people

to excuse things that they would have condemned. The basic idea is great, goes back to the golden rule. This isn't complicated, treat other people's you'd like to be treated. You know or I'll I'll I'll jump to the got grover cleveland, you know a democratic crooks as bad as republican crook apply the same standards. But but which we are not doing that right now in a lot of it is simple, bad faith, because it's it's stark, crass hypocrisy and say you gotta call it out, but you gotta stay mord to real principles gotta make sure that you don't in reaction, become what your condemning an intense but you can civilly, insist on a fact based debate and an u dont. You know not every it's not a mythic moral equivalence on every issue, and I think you know I'm I'm a centrist, I'm an independent, I believe, in those in those principles as well as a means to healing the nation. When I look abraham lincoln, to see a guy in the middle of the civil war, whose assassinated remain committed to the idea that there's more than unites us than divides us is in a mere as americans, even the midst of civil war that those the inspirations

We need to look to into model as best we can, even though a fall short. Do you. A third party if you andrew yanks forward party, I do so I I am someone who has since my first book, which was called independent nation about central leaders in american politics and has some succeed and some fail believe that we do have a market failure in our two party system. I don't believe the two parties- and this is demonstrably statistically true- they are not equally playing to the base and they're not equally extreme, but the fact that the number of self identified independents has risen from around twenty five percent in nineteen ninety two to between forty five, fifty two percent now at the time the parties have moved further to the extremes. There are no progressive republicans anymore and very few conservative democrats. If any, I think, speaks to a market failure in our politics. That's why sixty

two percent of americans say: there's a need for a third party. Now, that's a bellkor there's some folks who are on the far right and the left far left that I think where I, where I think that history would suggest third parties run into trouble, is when their farm primarily focused on running people for president, because they can play spoiler role. If you want an inspiration beyond teddy Roosevelt nineteen twelve, this merriment not be the subject of my next book, so you give you stepped on a hornets. Does it our first here by words, not a done deal yet? I've got a number of ideas I'm looking at, but in all ulcers this is to look at the rise of the republican party in the eighteen fifties, culminating in in the election of abraham, lincoln and a eighteen sixty. You know if you want to make a difference and offer people an alternative which is an off ramp for the polarization I think it's enormously dangerous to have one party states, because one party states are invitations to corruption, among other things, but some people, certain states and regions can't get past. The are the de next to a name, sometimes for good reason, start building a third party in individual

states simultaneously, some which are all Democrats, some, which are all republican, offer. People alternative, focused on reform and trying to find a way to come together begin with mayors, governor state led slater's right, the best thing about mayors, sphere, allegories to say: there's no democrat, republican or socialist way to sweep the street You gotta be a non partisan problem solver when you're, not you get pretty disastrous mayors valid to Allah bill DE can challenge that sure jones for moment, because sure, if you had said. That to me- and I think that's right- but if you say that to me three years ago, just said you're totally correct to say about the way, the justice should enforced. The law is its political and there's no democratic or a poet way to try hobbs act, robbery case right, a political thing. However, there has been an intervening event in the lives of every american. Every person who lives in the world, and if no longer live in the world- and I would have thought that the answer

of a global deadly pandemic. I covered nineteen been like clearing the snow and they would been a democratic republic and way to deal with that, and yet there was That is an unfair comparison. I think it's a fair comparison, but not if you look at a at a hyper local up and look, I think if you really want to analyze the deeper divide, our society, and this is a comforting thing. I dont think its red state be boosted. I think its urban verses, rural and those divisions have existed since literally the constitution the convention. I think most mayors tried to look out for public safety in a fairly traditional way. I e: how can we ensure that you know we? We, we don't have a pen get worse on our hands which which in some ways now pandemic, certainly transcend politics. Pandemics, don't care about partisan politics

I think it a governor level at a centre level. We did see the downstream effect of the participation the pandemic, which the dumbest thing in the world we could do and it led to a million americans dying, which is well than died. The spanish influenza epidemic hundred years ago, which my grandparents families die and which is one of the reasons they came to america so is. It is its tragic we said is: it is a little political, isn't arguments tribal and even looked at every major city mayor the country, but large city mayors tend to be democrats. Is that relevant or not? Well, not always because actually, eighty percent of eighty two percent last time I checked- mayors, whirl and america elected a nonpartisan elections. So if you look at at trials and south align our other places. You know that did not part of and and those folks may may have been democrats back in the day they may or may not be now. Other other cities know there have been republican mayors, but their represent. An urban report terrorism, which means they have to reach out beyond their base and you know it was that generation of third way: mayors,

de ninety who helped in a turk turn things are this country. So I dont know that that's all always the case. But your points taken We see, nay, a major breakdown of things that should be well beyond partisan politics like public health and that's a symptom of our largest sickness that we need to deal with. Here I mean there's a little bit of a problem of a movement Look at you against expertise. He up Tom nicholls has written about it. yeah! He has gets to the show who now looks indian food. Finally, I'm but a dinner next ends. I got lay time and a little bit its the rhetoric that used is anti elite and some of the people who have the entirely rhetoric has elite, education's and credential. Now the ivy league innocuous drive me crazy enough, so level name any of them at the moment. My aim that phenomenon- you know you all of them in the senate, my god go through less ted crews,

gosh Ali Tom cotton. I mean it on and on and on well you're. The elite is the latest yeah. I guess so. My point is just you know the the these folks who I mean some of these went to harvard an yale and for like senator John Kennedy, or you know dissenters santas I mean did this one of the things the founders feared, one of the job you having your life, was being their principal speechwriter, fray. Particular me you talked about mayors, communism, many them are democrats. This was a republican mayor in my question. Simple that man really giuliani what happened. This is the why should I get I get the most, especially from people who knew me back in the day I was Rudy's chief speech writer in the second term through nine eleven. I was proud to work for him. Then his be the first to say he wasn't a perfect person, but I think the twenty years of rudy and Bloomberg turned around.

city in a fundamental way and he was poured out whole third generation of mayors third way generation of mayors, I've made a huge difference, dick rear in l, a steve goldsmith, indianapolis on and on and on ready, is somebody I'll take the two quotes, that most associated with rudy that you no one was to be locked into partisan politics doesn't permit you to think clearly. He is no longer thinking clearly and hasn't been thinking clearly for over a half dozen years, and I think there are lots of reasons for that. I think he went through a rough part of his life. I think there's an ex mayor's disease where he become addicted to attention. I think you know trump appealed to

one of his worst instincts, but gave him relevance and he was never a big fan of the clintons. But clearly things got out of control. The other thing, which is particularly tragic as someone who, I think was regarded the manure. You know you were he was turning for the southern district and now regard as one of the best blair shortly prosecutors, the his generation. He is to say that you know the laws about a search for the truth. While we couldn't be further from the truth in the way he has conducted himself in recent years both those things. I I view as genuine tragedies and and and and I think he is so far from being his best self and the damage he has done to his legacy and which he has made a decision not care about apparently, unfortunately, his last chapter, his worst chapter, will largely define him in the eye, this fellow americans. I dont think that would entirely eclipse not eleven, nor do I think it should his leadership at and more attention should be given to the sum of the policies he put in place that were enormously effective in new york, but it's true

Actually what's happened to do you have any continuing relationship with him I saw him at a funeral for denny young, who was one of his clothes states. Who is a wonderful man, hopes proud to work in that city hall with my colleagues, and I try to stay in touch with them even an end because of our disagreements around the the trump era, but when he did the trial by combat thing that was on them. That was too much for me. You wrote a book in twenty ten called wing. That's how the land friend how the lunatic fringe is hijacking america, if you were to write that book today, would it be three times as long or not least twice the size I mean I did. I did it, I'm getting money, ten, it's almost quaint, it. May time is, but it's a reminder that we ve been dealing with this in microcosm forum

long time it's gotten worse and worse, I mean trump- doesn't even appear in the book. I think it is In addition, he makes a brief appearance around his. His is pumping up birth tourism, which is you know the first his political sense in some respects? But you know what I did with that book and I, I to do this and in my reporting it came out of my reporting when I was then a columnist for the daily beast, covering the from out the two thousand election, the first year of a bomber looking it at some of the matter. Resistance et cetera, is, I would say, ok, look at this figure what say glenn back That's it understand. Glenn back, you need to understand the john birch society. So when I try to do is take take reporting about a contemporary figure and then open the aperture to look at larger strain that that he's tapping into, and I did that with all the figures in a lot of them. You know, like the hatred groups I wrote about which is a term for the self styled militias vigilante groups in

One of the earliest interviews with them store roads is that the better the oath keepers, who obviously played a major role, generous six interviewed the founder of the reaper centres, a gun in my vanderbilt, who gave me a quote. I ll, never forget, which is all politics at this point, is prelude to civil war. So you know some of these characters have unfortunately only become more problem, but I think that's a book god, that's unfortunately edged well. I guess We started talking about current events with this. Urgent at mar, and I want as we're getting close to the end. I ask you about something else that was pushed off on pages, at least for a day, because the searches and that's this incredible vote in the senate. for the inflation reduction act, which does many things, including

of tax incentives and other incentives towards conduct that will help reduce carbon footprints and help the the climate change christ. Some weeks ago, people said the politically Joe Biden was dead in the water. I know you ve talked about this, you get asked about and you ask your guests about it. Now people say he has had an amazing week. We don't know if that has any effect on the polls just yet. Maybe the polls are also fine. That's just the way politics is these days, but based on your experience, both in politics and as a historian, and as journalists must must the story about Joe Biden repeat in familiar patterns in cycles, because that's how journalism is, what do you mean by that so I have a narrative, the prevails. People say this all the time and I dunno. If it's true or not, no, I haven't done a study. in the end they look for things that counter them. Narratives of the narrative is someone is up somebody up someone's a high flying. That's those most common narrative right, the high flown

inspiring leader commits Error some sin and they fall from grace in Everyone turns on them more rare, but also wonderful story. For you know, journalistic mythology is somewhat is, is carried out. The cannon outdated, the underdog their failing, and they have a dramatic turn around. I feel we often have cycles of up and down. Is that fair? I think it's true a battle that european initiatives there were well know the hitherto two things are not always the same right I mean, I think it's clearly true, that narrative exist in politics because they exist in human nature. We tell ourselves stories to understand the world, john did he not exiting the we tell ourselves stories in order to live, and so I think that Paul this perception and so narratives do exist and things that contradict or reinforce narrative tend to get picked up more, but even

larger than the question of narrative, of course, is fact, and and here's where it can be useful to try to impose historic perspective on the present tense. How will things look in twenty years? Thirty years? How will Joe Biden's presidency be judged? Obviously it's incomplete and you can't say, definitively but here's what you can't say more bipartisan legislation is passed this this congressional session, even before the partisan it out for reconciliation, inflation reduction act with a fifty fifty senate, and if I were to Well, if we were to pull all the articles that pronounced Joe Biden's agenda dead and beat out, those folks would look foolish. Instead, I think, as er, frida car is written in the economist has a very good a editorial about by it has shown willfully or you know fitfully, but but over time, that it is perhaps possible to still govern for the center

he has not coalesce the centre around him and indeed independent started, abandoning a really precipitously with the the withdrawal from her afghanistan also precisely one year ago, certainly this month, but these accomplish are extraordinary and they are real. They're not token played the base stuff. The chips act is amiss Major investment, american competitiveness and aren t the infrastructure bill is is is something that is overdue. That has been talked about residents, rubber infrastructure wait forever in every man happening, and then this bill, which lowers prescription drug prices, starts dealing with climate Age accelerates investment in non fossil fuel energy, while raising revenue is physically responsible and in that sense, is a major accomplishment and sir to opt in. I think, and I think it's partly human nature. You know we focus on conflict and I dont think we spend enough time talking about successes.

And I think that's a criticism of the media is rooted in inhumane nature, but I think we need to counterbalance that because it is an issue. We need to celebrate accomplishments and then do a better job covering governing frankly, a brother faulty to the horse racing. The conflict is you're. The outrage of the weak only off the hook a little bit, and so maybe Maybe the fault is not in the journalist. Maybe the fault is in the audience because you can choose which journalists they went listen to him was crazy. To me, don't have exact figure in front of us. Crazy to me is there are a large percentage of americans who don't know about some of these successes. I saw some weeks ago and they have the number of top of my head. Some significant percentage critically republicans have no idea that the infrastructure bill was passed and signed into law in part. The reason is that no shovel in the ground. Yet but people we'll just choose not to learn stuff, and you can avoid a monumental people who, for the news, generally there people who even to pay attention to the news.

You in their silos, depend what channel they watch and who follow on social media and in no way is this: is it fair to blame the audience, tribalism of the audience here. I think it's a contributing factor for I mean we have self segregated ourselves into separate political realities and the danger is that places the label themselves. Disorganization sometimes do not cover breaking news if it conflicts with their narrative. You hope that over. Tom. You know, shovels in the ground and and and lower regular postscript, drug cross and on and on and on which will start to see been. But, of course you know we as human beings. We're good at reacting to short term perceived crises. We are bad at dealing with long term crises, and so that's part of our jobs. to impose a sense of of perspective. Now we got, we talked earlier about the other the algorithms reinforced that short termism that reinforces and elevates conflict and controversy in c c country, no conspiracy gone too

is making tens hundreds of millions of dollars by spreading lies, so that's part of challenge. We need to face two too. I think defend our democracy. Frankly, it is to adjust those algorithms and the incentive structures that lead people to appeal, the worst elements of human nature, rather than are better angels, but it also requires leadership in power. dixon media and then the port of average citizens. Citizens need to recognise that you have a responsibility to that but with their eyeballs every day, whether they know it or not or whatever if their attention to the attention economy, so we have our work cut out for us, but you know we We ourselves a disservice if we don't celebrate our successes and highlight when there, but by partisan winds, and we need to make an a conscious effort to do that it just so. We can live in a fact based reality and remember. That transcend the truth. That there's more than unites us than divides us is americans perhaps to be well. You know that sounds pretty good and I buy all that

So let me end by asking you a personal question: will you and I talk about politics and I'm in here you something that you once asked me. You have worked for a politician europeans, Just for a politician. You ve studied history here the eloquent on these issues. You care about the country, you care about democracy, you care about progress. I have use on what the party should be saying. You have views and how tribal we should or should not be. Why isn't there a political future for you? Why aren't you doing that? Well, I mean the books or nice, the books or nice john, but habits of bills. I appreciate that very much, and I have asked you about that- and by which she had run I for myself, I I made a decision early on. The people who are interested in politics should run for off, to early in their lives that it should be a chapter of your life that people do in that. You need a personal and public identity separate from politics and that, ideally you have that

You have that a year and an and and I'm trying to answer is honestly, as as I can you I've. I've got young family, and I love what I do. But I do believe that you know that ideal politics and journalism are two sides of the same coin, because you care about the country because you care about civics. You want to elevate the debate and I would be honoured at the right time to a wet. To roll up our sleeves and get me arena because I think that's that's of a well rounded life of a us citizen in a democracy. Ladies and gentlemen, you heard it here he's running That's it stuff he's running as a very very I love, love love. What I'm doing now that was I even a dumb very now- I'm very excited we're going to have to we have to talk after this. So I want to remind everyone, your most recent book lincoln and the fight for peace excellent, and maybe you can tell people the name

and the link for your political action committee must have suffered due to the cnn new day, reality check jonah, exploratory committee didn't even talk about what what office reality check every morning on new day cnn John John thanks for being here is a real treat. Thank you. My friend great talk with you My conversation with John outline continues for members of the cafe insider community to try out the members for just one dollar for a month had carried out come slash insider. Again, that's capita com, slash inside So folks, there's been a lot of news this week.

but I want it in the show by talking about what could end up being the signature legislative achievement of the Biden presidency. I'm talking, of course, about inflation reduction act or the ira, which on Sunday after an all night marathon, what they call a load aroma. The deal was announced, somewhat shockingly just days, here by senator Joe mansion and majority leader, trucks humour. But it's ass, it was not a certainty until the vice president I'm a harris the decisive fifty first vote now its expected to pass in the house and to become law legislation. which achieves some of what was proposed in the failed, build back better plan focuses on climate action, health care and corporate taxes it's the largest single investment. The federal government has ever made to combat the climate crisis about three honey. Seventy billion dollars worth the billing with regulation around the fossil fuel industry and incentives for transition

cleaner energy solutions like wind and solar. Also extends the affordable care act. Healthcare subsidies for three years, which will prevent spikes in the car, cost of insurance for roughly thirteen million americans and among other things, it allows care to negotiate the price of certain prescription, drugs and capps ii, annual health care costs for seniors at two thousand dollars. This is a very, very significant bill, and one that will make a difference in the lives of many millions of americans, but also mentioned it, because if you allow me a point of personal privilege, I used to work for the man who got it done. Majority leader, chucks humor, Now I often talk about my time as us attorney, because it's relevant to the topic We discuss and the cases and fold addio J. Proud. As I am of the time I spent in and leading that office, I am equally proud to have worked for senator humour as it chief council on the judiciary committee. As the washington post reported, it was humor

who, after secret negotiations with centrist senator Joe mansion and later conversations with kirsten cinema, resurrected the bill that most people thought had died without mansion support in July, and so I was watching the vote play out on tv on sunday and I thought of my time and Senate shimmers office and the thing that for me, the most the tumor himself seemed to get emotional on the second floor. That's not so common for him and when Move me was at the end of his remarks. He spent a good amount of time thinking the people who don't have household names who you'll never see posturing on the senate floor, but our israel ansible, as anyone for the unlikely I agree that was made with this bill. Those members of senator shimmer staff, and I will tell because I was one of them that he rides his team hard. He demanded really heroic efforts from them day in and day out,

sometimes all night long, but he appreciates them more than any member of the Senate and he took them off one by one name by name and of course I cannot forget my own staff, the best staff ever on capital, and my members know it The members know how good mice is so dedicated to them the best in the business. MIKE lynch, Morton Brandon had been with me just about since I started being senator and they are such rocks in our office. So add my thanks to majority leader trucks, humor all the other members of congress who awakened to the challenges we face in the world and came together to pass this important bill, but also to each one of the staffers were working for days and days to get this done, many of whom are dear friends of mine, and I want to say to them because its warranted. Thank you

for your service to this country. That's it. this episode of stay tuned thanks again to my guest john avalon if you like what we do and review the show, an apple pie casts or wherever you listen, every pause. review helps. Needless, I find the show send me your question: about news politics and justice, tweet them to me prepare our with the hashtag asked crete bore call and leave me a message at sea six, nine to four seven, seven, three, three, eight, that six nine too for free! or you can send an email to letters, a cafe dot com, Stay tuned is presented by cafe in the vocs media podcast network, the exam

producer is tomorrow, suffer the technical director is david, tat, ashore, the senior producers or adam waller and Matthew billy as a team is david, curl andor, SAM overstated, as a lie, not wiener, Jake, kaplan, sean, shaw and Claudia Hernandez or music is by andrew dost. I'm your host preparers stay tuned.