When it comes to otto home and life insurance, you want accompanied that's on your side like a mika. They take the time to understand what you me and tailor a policy to meet one needs when you need a meagre. Their representatives put you first and let you know what you can expect from them. They'll tell you exact, what you need to do and walk you through it by choosing meeker you you you'll have someone in your corner when you need it most. A Mika empathy is our policy. Welcome start on your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide the off begin right now. This starts out real. The grass taste here, your personal astrophysicist, and today we can talking about the science of meditation when he first introduced my co host, marcia belts, gate,

your first time with us welcome back marcia. Thank you. So much so excited to be back, and I feel, like our topic will be a little. Is for me to understand then crypto currency without topic. We want you stay with every every bit of it, the quantum computer that Stalin appreciate steel factly so you're a comedian anna musician, that's a potent combo so and I love your work and, and you know, let's presume this- is not the last time you'll be on star talk. So listen, let's introduce our guest for the day and that's going to be and harris. May you might recognize that name and his face? He was his mid card. On for a busy news like forever, and then he retired retired and then took up?

meditation. I ve been doing it for a while, but then made it full time dan welcome to start off. Thank you. You make him feel all that was a correspond. Forever. Might vat gale did? I gave a speech once it syracuse, university in a lot of kids were coming up to me in saying I've been watching you. My whole life would actually to acts the child magnet allowed? Why so? Dan, just just a little bit about your career, you weren't just sitting at the desk. I mean you, you know you have emmy awards free your reporting. So what do you think of the the netflix documentary dont? Look up? What would you think of that

yeah from permitted? I didn't hear documentary you know, because the media is is deeply implicated in that. Yes, I have no, especially now that I'm not part of the media out y'all start bashing and I won't get sensitive yeah cause. You are the good morning america desk for a while, and I will set up a kind of programming. They were so to parodying there Yes, they are ok, Alright, I'm going to bring that here. Whatever you ask me, I'm just going to deny and make a way out of it. So tell me: you've got this app and even before the app were to tell me about this ten percent happier concept. that you ve been engaged in, not only while you were correspondent, but even in retirement. Yes, I've tried to give it a super. Quick version started, because I had a panic attack on national television back in two thousand, for you can go

that, if you want to see it, martial law was alive there. It was like a better version of AL capone vaults. You know when you hereafter Rivera did that live, show unrhymed time, television and didn't find anything in AL capone svelte. This was live and actually something happened, I lost my mind and there was an audience of point o one: nine million people june morning in two thousand, for the reason I had a panic attack I found out later is because I was doing some very dumps my personal life I had spent a lot of time, in war zones, that's not the dumb stuff. The the war zones was part of my ass part of my reporting job, but I came home from now from those experiences in Iraq Afghanistan and other places, and I got depressed and I very unwisely self, medicaid with recreational drugs,

even though I wasn't high on on good morning. America. My doctor later explained that he was wasn't. My drug use was enough to change my brain chemistry and make it more likely for me to freak out and so that experience put me on this journey that ultimately landed me on meditation so morning as a comedian youtube experience exactly that same war zone thing I doubly I'm relating to attack has, I think, also yeah. I started having really bad panic attacks and I don't like you, know Xanax, and things like that take a when I really have to so. I have tried meditations, I'm super interested to lake here your journey, for sure, wandering over comedian- has a panic attack. Does the earth this does the end of the day was right? It is it's hard to cause guy, like I've, only ever panicked on stage one time.

and it was kind of weird where I was just like silent for twenty seconds and then managed to kind of get them back, but it's it's a freaky ex. I can't imagine doing it on live t v at such a The experience that everything, if you haven't, had a panic attack, I mean it literally feels leg. You can't breathe. That feels you're having a heart attack and you can't tell anything to your brain. That's lake, I'm not dying your brain issues like this is it. This is the reason you're implying that. Had you not had these coexisting factors, you might not have gone through that episode. Is it Yes, I mean- I didn't have stage fright must have you know, which I made a joke and when my books, that my career up until that date represented a triumph of nurses, over fear, because I would like to be on television, but I had stage fright and ass. I was can walk in the line, but then you add in significant amounts of cocaine and

I crossed the line to freak out zone yet color help with anxiety of it. Now so you know if the data on this yeah. This is all very important feeder information, because when we go to our second and third segment, we'll be bringing on friend of stars heather berlin, whose I sort of residence a neural, and so all these factors will matter when we share with you are telling us with her. So so tell us now who, who got you started on meditation, who sought thought figure that would work very well Multi fact oral, but I think the most important variable was my wife. She gave me a gift of a book by a guy named doktor mark Epstein, who is a psychiatrist based in new york city. Where were we lived until recently, and he has beautiful series of books about the overlap between psychology and buddhism and

I didn't actually know much about buddhism other than the fact that I had stolen a buddhist statue from a local gardening. Dora, knives and forks. I thought it would help me with a little bedroom, your high school, so not because if he ever a boot on your on your window, Sylvia, your your hip we got the british museum over here- is in any way the statute, imitation on those bass. I think I can talk about it anyway. I don't know either food buddhism, but I read this can, and I realized that that there was so much in here that spoke to wear them the way my and works the buddha called it. The monkey mind this. This constantly active, leave being from one head of pleasant experience, one promotion, one slice of cake, one law, to the next and yet never fully satisfied the monkey mind minus throwing the poop I'm guessing his well

I mean your mind, rings ideas, while cocaine and coffee become rather correct. Your I agree with you march. I disagree with you neo, because I am an over your my but my mind during a lot of hope. Other vehicle- I and I said was mind's, irrational boob dispenser, oh man, okay, so it's a it's! A it's a figurative, poop dispenser there you go alright, so alright! So, and that set you on your course. So I'm guessing here that it is a very educated guess that the the meditation has It is all about sort introspection, as has so much of eastern philosophy, so the rest, is there is, is kind of the pre a preordained right. I mean it's, it's not the entered. The word introspection is interesting, because it's not introspection and the way I think we in the west might think of it, because you're not sitting there and

wising your thoughts. The way you wouldn't therapy by the way, I'm pro therapy, I go to therapists and et cetera, et cetera. So that's not a degradation of therapy, but this is more of a mental ex besides, which I know you'll, get at in your second and third segments with your neuroscience friend who has a ruin. Yet even heather can talk about this, but I'll just preview it by saying that, and I can describe what meditation is. If you want, It is essentially like a series of exercises for your brain. Extension your mind and you can. The changes on the brain scans and that's really compelling. So it's not navel gazing and in the way in which we in the west might consider got it. So it's it's goes beyond whew right as this where, if you, if you have measurable data on chain in your brain scans? It means you're, actually doing something, and it s not just talk at that point.

Is it yeah? I think it is fair. I mean it's interesting, the more I've gotten into it, the more open I am too. I owe my first out You know I was raised by by academic physicians. Are married to an academic physician. I was not smart enough to to be a doctor, so I wear make up and talk to television cameras reliving, but I, the science is really what got me over the hump and allowed to allowed me to do this thing, but the more I get into it, the the more- and this is probably an inhospitable place to say this, but the more open I am to things that might have, I might have dismissed as well, which now I would just consider sort of other ways of knowing things and that we just and that were always looking for scientific validation. But maybe you know I dont meditate, because I think it's going to change my brain. I meditate. As I know it, makes me less than an asshole to myself. others and that's really helpful. Ok, that anything that reduces the esa,

weakness in the world is a good thing as yet, no matter what the foundations are gets, what let's go? Let's go back to square one, what is meditation just gimme your best sorted definition for it, so that we can start there. You ve done some meditation marcia. Do you remember what flavour you did for me? It's it's really hard for me to men. I say, and what I noticed is and the more I would try and structure it, the less likely I was to actually just sit there and be present like I would try and get the tapes and things like that. So the time As I have found, I best meditate or after I do yoga whenever they have the like ten down lay down period. Those have been my most successful times. I think, because my body has exercised and I can sort of meditate at that moment and then just truly leg. in bed in the mornings and for me it's putting my phone different room. Enforcing myself, not to lake, go check

for an hour and then I can actually just sit there and think and not watch tv and that's what I call attaining, I dont know if it actually is, but that sort of what's helped me with my anxiety, especially over the last year, to try and stay present, and I Little things like all tapped, taught my heart taught my head and physical things like that and point to the like. I dunno, if you've done this, when you have panic attacks for use, point up- and you say I see the ceiling. I see the door you to start naming things around you to keep yourself president. So that's the kind of meditation. I guess you would flavors from voting. nor the entry level about it, he said I can I be walking around me. I want to go to bed chocolate chip level of you. Go, go go so what so? What flavour? Dear you well yeah. Maybe I can up this ambiguity the flavors year that so there, the word meditations labelling

Sportsmen describes a whole range of activities. Marcia had on about seventy five of them in her a paragraph that she just uttered there and yet and and that's all good for me I usually start with a very basic form of meditation called mindfulness, which is derived from buddhism, but has thoroughly secularized and has now been studied in the labs extensively. And the real there really three beginning steps for this. One is sit comfortably. You could lie down. If you want, I don't you or you can, which is often the lotus position at all like to do that gaza fifty years old and very limber, but he just kind of sick. Close your eyes, that's the first step. The second step is to bring your full attention to the feeling of you. One thing: usually your breath coming I'm going out? If you don't like focusing on your breath, some people find that sort of an anxiety agenda can anxiety producing thing, so you can just, the other for your full body, sitting you're lying down, just picking one thing to focus on and then the third step

As soon as you try to do this, you just try to failure, rather feel your body sitting in a chair, your minds go bonkers. This is the monkey mine and you'll, see that you're start in the start, a homicide or you're wondering you, no one's lunch or whatever and the whole game is just to notice. When you ve become distracted and to start again and again, Get you're, not trying to clear your mind, that's impossible! Unless your enlightened or you ve died, the whole games didn't notice when you ve got to come, distracted and start again and again and again in the benefit, is mindfulness this kind of self awareness that allows you to see the chaos and cacophony of your own mind without being owned by it. While so that's why the silence matters, because that could create an artificial distraction. That is, needless in your efforts to achieve your goals, for some people meditate with music. I've never understood exactly how that works about those tones. You know those bells that you here some time yet

might resonate with some frequency within your soul so there's sound baths which again, that's not something I really understand or have done much of you, the bells off. In the end the flavour of meditation. I come from. Our side are used to say, start or end a session of meditation. Oh gotcha, okay, so, like I said, they're lobbying, both very pavlovian by the way. Yes, yes, I like some of those sounds. I like some of the olms and the like the bells kind of clear out your head. It feels like mouth wash in your brain summit are frequently or like that, I'm just to be clear for those who don't otherwise. No, these aren't like dinner bells. Sleigh bows there there tonal bell, right there like us

can only about a tale to slave owls. Agatha now know well, noise is none other than I do more. Cowbell might have on sand and screaming ash so yokes. So you have an app called a ten percent happier and welcoming the average name for the what you do, and you know I wanna be twenty percent. That's why you heard me back to the ten percent you know with what was that thinking behind that. What did you borrowed from the business world where they say I want you to give one hundred and ten percent today and that's of course, mathematically, not real it's spiritually emotionally? It might mean something. So where are you coming from when you get this ten percent thing going, I got interested in meditation in two thousand and eight or nine before it was cool. It was like the first time I've. I've ever been ahead of a trend and well

the entire nineteen sixties and seventys with you know, maharajah. I guess you know. Maybe I thought there was a matter. Patient when I'm back then just but you if you would only just born safe will you deserve? fifty or america. Where are they now, but you might maybe up living. Let me offer you away out of what you just said he started meditating early in social media universe. About that I appreciate you offer me the way out. I would say maybe I got interested in meditation before the second wave of cool happened. absolutely right. It was called the sixties, acerbities giant then than your examples include the maharajah, my you Paul macartney, John lennon they're all do in its you're, absolutely right. It was called the sixty to seventy. Then it went away. I got kind of marked as part of the sixties, becoming a bit of a cultural caricature

and then so. I got interested in two thousand eight thousand nine and a lot of my friends thought it was weird and or making fun of me and one day a friend of mine at work was saying: what's the matter with like. Why are you doing this thing? I kind of I don't know said he I cause. It makes me like ten percent happier and I could see The look on her face changed from scorn too mild interest that clever. There ok are you gonna, be there The ten percent yeah I can only go with a ten percent and that's a starter package that answers since now, I'm stuck with math questions and jokes for my whole life, just double down on that to say that it's like any good investment. The ten percent compounds annually the radical good news of meditation is that- and this is what the science

Knowing, as is that happiness is not a factory setting that is unalterable, alterable its skill, you can practice and this practice the benefits compound over time, and that is incredibly compelling. Hence it ten percent and I wrote a book called represent, happier at which I thought was, can be mildly, embarrassing and go away and then a kind of add to a podcast, where I interview meditation experts and then this meditation app, which had, let's at a very natural arc of an active person, who's trying to get the job done. So congratulations on that. One of the book come out almost eight years ago, two thousand and thirteen, the ten percent happier book and ok, we

look for that and maybe link to it. So so you have, I noticed- and I picked up a couple of your and the episodes, if I call them that are you have you have a cadre of meditation experts that help the listener to the podcast get into different meditative states right and if, as I understand correctly, these different meditation experts are arsed are slightly differently tuned relative to what your needs might be. If you then tune in his act at it. If you listen, is that correct? Yeah me? I think there are there are different use cases for meditation. We have a lot of meditations that help. You fall asleep. Some four first thing in the morning there a medicine, since that help. You boost yourself awareness. This word mindfulness thickets, tossed around a lot and others oh that meditation has been shown through a lot of research to help you with is compassion- or, you might say, friendliness warmth. If you want to get grandiose about it,

of even- and so that's a really compelling thing to think about. As a skill and as we Look out at the for me personally, as I look out at the world in house screwed up. It is The notion that we can boost our capacity and the capacity of other human beings to get out of their own heads in view of the world and pathetically through the eyes of others that that is a skill. That's a very hopeful that sort which between knowing your own mine, better and being able to interact with other people better. So, for example, is there a meditation course was. Go that far comedians. It can better get in the head of their audience because they want the audience to last right and if they don't laugh, they're not connecting in the way they need. So could you, limit of this from what you're describing have meditation app for a meditation course flavor for every need. Has in society so that you lift all boats, yes

wrap rather than just the boats of dependency is have emotional inner needs to to soften. I believe we do. Courses on stress anxiety, also relationships productivity. Having more self awareness in two in your daily life, when we were there very There is no aspect of your life that you can't make more awesome through it. and finally turning it into a practice and that's what the outcome of a pocket europe has hit the hardest part as though you start to realize, like a hike, fix all my own life. It is all me and then I think now well. You know what I I don't think you should register risks. Do you march, I don't think the goal is to try to fix current quote everything all

I think the goal is marginal improvement. Overtime, Marshall daddy's attend to resent guy, so don't buy, not ass. I am, and I like in sync ratification. I don't have time for this margin. Improvement over it's like a cocaine. You know I advocate yesterday you will already said you didn't like that I'd only I hate it a big tool off the table, exotic so dont. Let me let me have a personal story. Here is not a story, but just I'm like the opposite of anxious. Ok, if I speak, you ve been a public setting It is I'm as calm as like I'm sitting in my living room and three thousand people are just there and we're chilling in the living room. That's what it feels like to me. So I have no anxiety at all, I'm very comfortable in those settings, and I there are other things that I know people reach for.

To compensate for what they might need. I dont have no relationship with caffeine at all. Ok I'll have a hot chocolate. Once a week just what I like chocolate, not because I'm after the caffeine that in it so- and I can sleep like that- I can walk away from this camera lay down on the ground on the carpet here and be asleep. Ten minutes later so I've never been angry at a person in my life. Just basically saying everything. That's your whole life doesn't really affect me, but what I'm saying is try a meditation app. You know where it said, sit down, focus on your breath or did a lot of the stuff you were describing, and I just went to sleep because the soft voice talk begins to talk and I m sorry- I just go to sleep, and so maybe I'm meditation proof. Ok, because like

Am I unreachable by meditation, because I don't I don't know, I don't believe anybody is. Let me ask you this: when we refer, because I love everything you just said, and I want your mind on many levels where, in your life, do you struggle? So I don't think about it. That way, I think about it. Like ok, I'm struggling exam act, amick right, and so I spent my whole life. There's a book in front. I don't know, what's in it, I got a study it and so then I work through you slogs through it. You the brush and bramble. You get a little bloody, but maybe you know if it's a particularly difficult physics problem or something, and then you get through it on the other side and the The reward is that much sweeter for having struggled to get there. So for me, a struggle not something to bring to bring axed within me. It I'm attracted

it is it well. I don't understand that. Let me keep at it and that that excites me, and so I don't I don't. I can't think about it. The way you asked me the question about it. Well, I, If we talk to everybody in your life off the record would they say there are at day. Where you have a bad day, our relationships that are fraught or is there No struggling. I can never be woke enough for my daughter twenty five year old daughter me and my bike constantly isotopes saying as well. I think I am, I will never be woven visa. I learn all you see. I am. I learned a lot from her, so I you know we talk and this tension, if I if I did my heels and based on my own life experience but she's a life experience, that's that's the has vectors going forward, not looking backwards and

I I'm intrigued by that challenged by it and intrigue by it, but for me every challenges, an academic just now with it's relationships. There's are other complexities, they're right a married thirty three years and the you know, the big secret of marriage is that marriage is work alright, because it in fairy tales. You know we don't we're all the fairy tales end they and at the marriage right. So the is advice of the court's yes, but they'll. What to do to get, because if they would happily ever really really, Oh, give me some stories on the other side of that of the trench right. So so so I don't know, I think, should be taught you can talk to my room, motives. In those same will you he does this and he does that. He does but you're telling me that many, it is much more for yourself and what you need and what you want, and so so that's an interesting

Where can I love a page kai? I say a page go for it to me. It sounds like you said you tackle everything like an academic challenge, but what the challenge of meditation is correct me. If I'm wrong, It's like you, have to see your own brain as something that's worthy of study and something that's worthy of growth and under standing and so you're like I don't, have the typical struggles with somebody else, but meditation might be helpful for you understand higher own mind works even more or do. If that's, if give marshes correct, she is, ok, ok, so as for you I mean everybody's gotta have their way and I think she astutely observe identified one way in for for a mind like yours. That is really interested in science, really interested in the detail. Figuring things out, buddhism

and meditation, I think, would have an enormous amount to offer you, because the mind is massively complex and fastened, and in many ways lawful, and you can get interested in what makes it work. So units for suggesting, This is not how you began. You began by saying I had this problem at the remembrance and meditation solid it and ITALY problems in your life medications imagine that asia is your words to amend, dictation can help you overcome them, master them and the like. If you have no such litany of problems and you're, not on any kind of prescription drugs, you are now saying that a challenge you unjust asking you nothing that the meditation can enhance whatever it is you doing well and maybe even do it better

Labour yeah, I think many things are true simultaneously, just as when we talk about astrophysics, where I know nothing, but you can talk about one way in with meditation, which is, I think, the most common way in which is suffering people, yeah man does address very elbaradei anxiety for you for you. I think that there is. There is a I think is phenomenal, though, that the there is an enormous amount of wisdom. I hear coming through in your description of your own mind, stay that's amazing, I dont think you have to. That date, I'm not a meditation fundamentalist, if not it regularly very delicate and sheltered cool fundamental is radically to track the interesting jor for you might be just intellectual interest, because they're so the mind is so vast and is so interesting and I there would be a lot there for you to play with. I just want to respond to one lasting which, as you said,

meditation is all about your own mind, but what we know about the universe is that the line between self and other is porous and blurry and you can't, if you look close your eyes and look for the self for some little hum month list of marcia or neil or dance in the mind. You cannot find it. We can't find the seat of consciousness in the brain and so that we are in her dependent with other people and with the universe writ large, and so Take your model return on your that physics would be we're entangle. yes, yes, yes, we are not so well. hush of intangible meant working on your own mind, is working for the greater good. The same you you, you call you both. Catherine aggregate others see it connect with their yourself I have no rebuttal too that perspective

Well, there has been a delight to have you and just congratulations on trying to having improved yourself and now attempting to improve others, because at the end of the day the world is better off for people like you. Having, live in it sir. Thank you. Imagine new york. If we were all just walk you're on having panic attacks all the time we have the world's poor little girl, it's great to meet. You ever think about a long time, venza written to me genuine marcia, I'm a new fan agreed to meet you actually it's nice to meet you so weak. When we come back, bring on start talk a correspondent. Can I call, can I use that word caught us start talk brain corresponded, heather, berlin it's dark chocolate.

no streaming exclusively on paramount plus we are the great wonders and great danger. We come together. The new season of star trek strange new worlds. The next great age of exploration starts with us. The large shields are ready for some fanciful. You know off gutters, star trek strange new worlds now streaming on, parallel plus, live long and prosper. Hi, I'm chris caroline from walworth, new jersey and I support start, work on patriot. Please enjoy this episode of star talk, radio with your. And my favorite personal astrophysicist, neil de grass thyssen

we're back starter. We're talking about meditation coming off our first segment in the conversation with Dan harris abc corresponded turn meditation. Who do I get to use that word more gallia totally. We can totally do that. Absolutely, as is the dna of start We bring in an academic expert on the subject matter that any of our pop culture, representatives bring to the table and of course we have our neuroscientist at large. Heather berlin, welcome dies and lies are always a pleasure. You're and you're you're at the icon school of milan, the skull, I said to a on each and admire Sinai. New specialise in figuring out with them.

is doing whether or not people know it is that's on your business card. Isn't exactly yeah, that's my slogan. So let me just bring up some broad questions here that are arose from that first segment, so many people who have mental challenges one of them, a big one, I've been told is is, but more should be done. but there are others, there's trauma in life, for example, possibly even ptsd. You can think of things that a problem that a person can't shake- and you know as as a clinical person, is your first thought. Yeah, there's a drug for that more At what point to someone say is a drug for that and at what point to someone say, get to know your mind better. Maybe In her mind over matter, mind,

over them, Early behaving mind over the mind. Is misfiring How does? How do you strike a balance between those two often you know, we start with the kinds of treatments that are non medication. These treatments and no yeah. Yeah for sure, and that would be I mean you know, arms, various forms of talk farrabee using technology, garcia of renouncing mindfulness base. So production urge or meditation as part is integrated as part of therapy. You know because your thoughts, You know you can change your brain and that is a way to change your neurochemistry just via controlling your thoughts and your emotions and how you respond to them. So do we? We always do that. First now, peoples nor chemical, unbalanced or nor circuitry is such a way that that is not enough. Then we

supplement or augment that with medication, and then we find that there's a synergistic effects to that. The medication last mindfulness space, where the talk therapies and together, better than either one of them alone. So it's never just like. Here's a pill now go often and any now you'll be better if it it's gonna be a bit of both bunch. start always with non medical. mention any sort of move up the ladder, though it is an appeal cheaper than therapy so, while we can adjust superman faster gather, bulgaria model, but let's hear it. If you know the neuro chemistry, the elite? sure, chemistry of let's just whoever defined I don't care, it doesn't matter of a normal brain. Ok is the brain it doesn't have, nor

logical issues that we have identified in textbooks. Is that the chemistry you're gonna try to recreate in the mind of someone who has mental challenges, so First of all, there is no such thing really as a normal brain. Every brain is different and now we're talking about people at the extremes. Yes, you people with extreme Nor can we go on down says or on problems in their narrow anatomy. What else If those extremes, everybody is, has something: basically, everybody we're all wired differently, and so there's no one ideal place that we're trying to get a person to be at. So that's why psychiatry is is an art more so even then a science. You know it's not like. We know. Ok, it's like you have this picture. I take this antibiotic. You know it is

Try this as a sorry or a selective saratoga. We have taken him at her and see if that has an effect and there we sort of measure. How is an effect in that prison and if it works great, if not, ok, we'll try. This struggle will try them. So there's no perfects armed with little dosing too rosy here, there's no there's no ideal state we're trying to get it. Just is really individualised medicine. What works do you based on your symptomology, you know what kind of treatment do we think is going to be best for you, and so there's no ideal state. It's just it's just what's good for you, so if you're person has an over thinker, you have a highly active prefrontal, cortex and you're ruminating, and you can't stop that inner voice. You know giving you needs to have a viable down. How to focus your attention is one way is that doesn't help you need something stronger than we can help bring in certain drugs and see if that has an effect or not in others,

I know what drugs does for your hair type defeat. That sounds horrible. So let me ask you at an awkward philosophical question, all right- and I I I I come to you from the world of physics and in physics we we fish has been around a long time. What I mean by that is their things we ve. fully understood about the universe. Over many men- centuries by the works, hard work and brilliance of key people who have been in our field. That is a much deeper history, then psychiatry or psychology right. When you you're sort of modern psychiatry, psychology, its? Is it much more than a century old? Really I mean, but maybe late. Eighteen hundreds was physics. We have authentically physics going back five hundred years ago, so my my question is: could it be

that red neuroscience or order a couch, you know a couch therapy is something that needs breakthroughs brilliant neuro. People haven't been born yet so the day? we'll come? Will you say you're just analyze the neuro chemistry's ears? What's wrong fix it here, nip tuck. Do how did you hear about the door and if one certain, ok, you locate ready? Does I love this question? So? First of all I mean psychology arose our unemployment on this. More sure. You wouldn't know I'm freaking out because to me it's like because it's about the human brain it can never be standardized and the way the physics is because humans are conscious, as just like we're talking on the first segments about our consciousness. So I would tell you want a doctor nominal beheld, my ray and I'd be terrified. They use it for evil from no there's one. Ok, there's a day. We look up at the night sky, o the moon,

is doing this and that an that's different from what mercury is doing. That's different for and everybody's, doing their thing in the sky and no one really understands it exactly and so forth thinking? Oh, my gosh mobile. Never understand it because we are mortal and that's the divine space of the Heavens. And how can we ever understand divine either way. I say then gas where we didn't watering. The former was come forth and it brings in altogether, undue one coherent, understanding Are we in this moment declaring the brain is just complex and we can never do it or you admitting ignorance about where we relative to it could be one day so that the person walks You put him in. What are your machines that I know you got back room there in your home and then goes boot and then With these fixed what he said in his giants,

It's ok, go to taco bell in two minutes or less psychology arose out of philosophy. Philosophy was the origins of psychology, but technically, if you really, you know the the the the science of the mind. You know, maybe a century a century and a half old, true The problem with the brain is subjectivity. So, I've always been interested in the brain, because I want to understand the neural basis of consciousness. How does this physical piece of matter create subjective states? If I ask the most subjective thing there is in the word exactly so. If I ask you, are you depressed? You can look at how you're acting whatever I have to ask you on a scale of one to ten, how sad you feel or how much pain, or you were right. So until we can solve that problem of subjectivity, which is really what we want to work towards, having a unified theory of the neural basis of consciousness. And we are working on that right now- you don't have yet we can. We do not have an agreed upon period of consciousness and more sure you know the best evidence that they don't have. It is that if you go to the bookstore and he looked for books on consciousness, there

shells aftershocks large, as one might have what we re doing it at one book on gravity on itself and its fifty books were consciousness. That means we know nothing about her tat thou, be happy about Have you figure it out, though? Don't tell anybody because I dont want the club and I dont want- I don't want it I don't want to this- is the thing the thing about consciousness is the first person subjective experience, so the only one that can ever experienced your consciousness. Is you to know what it feels like to be you, but there are a couple of main contenders of like what is this integrated information theory of consciousness? The other is a global, neuronal, workspace theory of consciousness. Some talk about. the processing encoding. So there's a bunch of theories out their floating around and were actually engaged in a large scale study right now cross labs to test these differ.

here is against each other experimentally, which is very difficult to do in and of itself, because the problem of subjects under activity, but also could the concept of consciousness itself be malformed. In how you even pose the question? Why? Yes, I was actually to be their departure on this topic because he is he's philosophizing that consciousness just exists in the universe, is a fundamental problem of the universe, and we are just subjects We increase matter right. We're They ve no matter or me, and my fellow neurosciences matter creates subjectivity. Greets cost is that there are some people with different philosophical views. That say it exists in the universe and we're just like the conduits of it. no further evidence that nobody really knows anything. We I know the universe gives it to you and the other person says that you give it to the universe right. If that's what arguing about you don't go anywhere. You also, let me think that ended up killers elsewhere

as the human species in over the course of time. You know, theories will emerge and, and we will get closer because each brain is slightly different, you would happen each individual map out their entire brain understand their full history. Also the brain isn't static. It's constantly changing, so where you were yesterday is different than where you are today was a moving target, so so many variables involved that it's really hard to pinpoint and should change it in a way that's going to suit you're going to change the person's behavior. However, the one thing we are getting closer with our neural implants will be. Can you make a wrap? move laughed array depending on how we directed or make it eat or naughty, and so we could to control human behaviour. By We can control how you feel and think you know, I'm mean eventually get there, I'm sure of it.

Terrorism is scary. I'm scared of that marcia she's here when I was in place to control your behavior. Yes, so every time I left or right, I'm gonna go am I doing than anything else would making Simeon these remote control that high on your drastic than the others got. You know what I meant break when we come back heather. I want to hear from you about the the clinical studies and laboratory study. of what the brain is doing when its meditating or what not meditating or or just what, what what going inside the brain tells us about what's going on outside when for those referred. Drugs, trade with three of meditation-

There would then harris who set us on this path gotta meditation app called ten percent, smarter, it marcia, tenement lapierre happier. Ten percent have air we really want. It makes us all ten percent, smarter right, We gotta work on that one and we and heather berlin, our nor scientist at large, to make sense of all this or neurological sense heather. All this talk about changes. people's behaviour for whatever reason be it meditation or drugs. Do you see that brain scans, orton neurons, whatever it is, you do behind? certain when nobody's looking

Do we see changes in the brain after meditation, yeah and amazingly? So so all these studies have been done. You know they have people never meditated before, and then they have to meditate for eight weeks and then look at their brains before and after, and they also look at long term meditators. You know people practicing their whole life and you actually see an increase in gray matter. So normally the brain is aging right over time and we're having this sort of a little bit of atrophy of gray matter and they found that meditators long term meditators a fifty year old brain looks like what a twenty five year old brain will. Look like remind me what gray matter does ruse gray matter is involved in all of our thinking. Our cognition planning, organizing is particularly in the prefrontal cortex. They see these changes. So what's the point of the rest of the brain everything I want my brain for the last century. It's all your sensory information. The sub cortical areas are more of the emotional parts of your brain, your drives motivation, but they actually see changes in those areas too. So they had

the main line involved in a fear response, your friend, a fighter or flight response actually were smaller. and the end in the short term editors, the people who just sit up for eight weeks there, what did their migdal activation in response to emotional pictures or meditating and then after another, at last, a mental activation, two pictures after they had met you say more emotional control, so angry. some prefrontal cortex, the gray matter means taking. Regulate yourself, you can have more impulse control control over emotions and it? Actually, you see these decreases in some political areas so It's what you get these these activation changes and you get really structural changes in the brain with medication, overtired suit. You have value judged in what you just said

Now you just those changes right now, but the amygdala a huge pile of anxiety right because that's basically like your fighter flight is triggered, but there is nothing to run from. So I, like your outsides, not matching your inside, and I've heard that meditation yeah, like that's interesting, cause. I've heard that medicine. sure just helps com, not fighter flayed in so interesting, more so you're saying that something We are reacting in a way, it would have been sensible if T Rex were chasing exactly except that much trauma that you see that a lot I'd had a job where I worked with holocaust survivors and their kids had even worse things, I than them, because they grow up with all this physical anxiety, but their experience outwardly is very safe, so it doesn't make sense, and then they ve now done studies about that, their kids of trauma and things like the holocaust. Have these experiences with their brain chemistry in inches, interesting hearing

science behind a cause. I've heard about the impact on south and had heard some give you that, but come on any activity that someone does intensely for eight weeks. If I, if I take up chess and I get really into check or some or some I I don't know, martial arts is that change. The rain here something that it has a lot of focus and intensity so isn't is people's meditate. Unique in this regard, or is it just anything you do with focus and intensity will also trigger or instil chain when it changes in the brain. Absolutely. But it's this it's the skill set that you're training as your brain habituates. That learns anything. So, if you're doing something bad like things that are related to addiction, you get into a negative negative changes in the branch, but in this case, what you're learning with meditation is your increasing activation impressed, the brain that have to do with you, Twenty four?

quieting your you're, a sort of monkey mind that inner chatter that so accurate, empty minds, the you know the kind of inner voice, that's the inner critic, that's telling you you're not doing well or all the negative thinking and you're gaining more control over those negative thoughts, you're getting more control over I mean emotions are good to have, but not when they're being triggered for the. reasons right. So what happens? You have a fast track to emotion, wear them until it gets activated, but then the pre, the prefrontal cortex, says: oh wait. You know this there's nothing dangerous in this situation. You can calm down now, but if you don't have the right regulation to do that, then you're a victim of your own neurochemistry, exactly, but this way you're taking control in a way over your your brain, it's like the brain controlling itself so with meditation you're becoming more aware of what's happening internally in your own mind and you're, gaining more control so that can enhance your positive experiences and help down regulate the negative ones, and the thought of I did wants her. I was seventeen

and there was a friend of our family. a friend of my mothers who had a son who was also seventeen, but I know We played together when we were like three, but I didn't know him and he died of brain cancer, a very tragic- and there was a funeral in reverse of the chapel at riverside church and they it was during a school day and he he he went to school in westchester, but they took a bus of kids, brought them into manhattan and the end is a picture of him on the casket, an The organ is doing its organ. Think funeral organ think. everybody's crying and I'm saying myself I freely I swear. This is my. This is why this is what I said to me. So I said I do not know this person yeah

every force operating in the air right now wants me to cry over his death. The you know fifteen sixteen year old. Kid help. Each other walk down the aisle and it is a handsome kid. So this his hand- the photo of him- and I said you started, welling up in my eyes, and I said I'm only crying because everybody else's crying. I don't actually feel this. I said this to myself and then I said why cry every day because found People die every day in new york city for all kinds of reasons, a crying, then So why should I cried out those tears backup and I I I felt a moment, but I did not let moment override emotions that I felt were artificially implanted in me. I did that when our seven I over, I should be proud of that moment where I am

farm commercials? Are you serious, yeah different require the commercial with a woman sings with the the dog on the most manipulative bring grandma, and you haven't seen her in twenty years. I'll be sobbing I'd like you to manipulate me, and so heather is. Are you saying that I did something good or did I do something and there's gotta most misanthropic, This is interesting. So there's with what we put a value judgment of you know, one of which is, if you can have the right kind of emotional control, you will be able to express your emotions at the appropriate time, but not express them when you're being manipulated to do so in one or two, and in that sense, yes, you until you don't order, was all is supposed to create a funeral cause, there's the collective release with ritual, even if, like it's not, it's like, I feel, like our cultures,

well it shied away from death that that's why you're supposed to cry, but I also went to some funerals where some people, I'm like you're, doing this for attention. is wrong, but I think the emotional control can be a good thing all over again over controlled, like you know, if he, if he didn't cry, if it was the funeral of someone, you did no one had connection to that'd be a little different, but the other aspects is. And what meditation also helps increase the brain areas involved in its empathy, so You can have an emphatic worse, aren't you can like the boundary between self and other actions is all and if you feel more connected with tee all You can increase empathy, but at the same time have cognitive control too. control. Your emotions me popery appropriate way sought. So I So I drew my line between tears. Dropping down my cheek. I felt it was a very sad day and so if I didn't feel the sadness, but I just could not an end,

I've been to some nor leans funerals right where there is a jazz band and there's yours is a celebration, so I dont think is rich in the sky, One must cry at a funeral. You can use that time to celebrate the person's life. However, briefly where on earth do you know you were exhibiting, which is really at that young age. Was this sort of meta awareness? You know you are making a decision about how you are going to choose to geek a kid. I was a geeky kid, so there was this whole like parts of the brain modulating other parts of the brain, and that's what meditators you I once did this Its firm with this shall in monk, who could withstand an enormous amount of pain, and we put them in the scanner, and we put these these heaters on his wrists and we would just keep increasing the heat heat to the point that he had earn marks on it and he was just

I feel the pain, I feel the pain when you look at his brain. Normally, this is the sort of stuff hitherto yeah I was joking behind the curtain is located there. This isn't the uk. This was in the uk, totally different roles, they're different legislator, yeah. That was when he was controlling this pain. You saw one part of his brain controlling the pain network in the brain, so he was literally using one part of his brain is executive control. down, regulate, appear now contained, doesn't happen in your arm. It happens in your brain sylvia. In control, one part of your brain with the other. You can not experience pain. There are people who go through surgery without anesthesia by going into a meditative state. So it's just amazing how much when talking about this meta awareness, how much control we could really have beyond what we even think is physiologically possible. We can control our own physiology. I I have to confess then I used to do that.

placed, a rustle and wrestle wrestled, there's a lot of things that are painful when you're wrestling and I would say to myself, wealth is skin, broken end, my bleeding know them for good ignore poking they ve. Let's that's like there is a really fascinating, like sport, science thing where about how athletes can play through a broken leg, just by pure pain control, the adrenalin and like the chemicals that come up where you can have a super bad injury and finish the game and then not feel the pain until afterwards. Essentially, but then sometimes the pain is excruciating once they finally do feel it. But they'll say I played for two hours on a broken leg. Didn't feel a thing as soon as the game was over I've. You know collapse like it's just a mate thing, you're somebody get in my case. I would make the judgment whether it was just paying paints sensors. and to my brain or whether it is in actual physiological break that needed attention right. The medical attention. I'd I'd make that distinction.

and if it was just simply pain, no matter how severe I would just ignore it and keep going and- and I and so I I hope, heather, that that doesn't mean I can't feel for people right as that's what you're telling me I just hard hearted. I think there are two different systems that are going on. One is this capacity to feel empathy right. Is that a whole neural network in and of itself, which you can very well have I dunno I may have to run some tests on you, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now So that's one thing, so it doesn't necessarily coralie with how much cognitive control or in control. You have over your thoughts and over page, so you can have a ton of cotton were controller emotional regulation and that doesn't necessarily relate to halibut that it could not. You are the only when you ve been the reason they get bigger. Constrict they get through pushed together is because cycle paths. Ten. you haven't enormous matter control and also don't have empathy, but but in

in the end. You know not a psychopathic humans on they don't have to be correlated. You should use my name in the same sentence with it refers to the little ones, asking about being a funeral very cry guys. You got a lamb is plain, but this has been highly enlightening, introspective unkind, for what we normally do. Four star talk, some glad to have you for me to this. Other ancient greece has been a star talk in episode on meditation and am mindful me I'm your hosting the underground station, your personal astrophysical, Looking up, let's go, said no matter what you do. Life can get pretty hectic and when you get stressed out, you can get well pretty sweaty. That's why you need to check out secret clinical anna perspiring. It's like your very own secret weapon. You get secret strongest, protection against sweat,

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