After hearing the horrible news tom visited the site where his daughter was killed, he says it was a beautiful area out east and that the tragedy tainted a tranquil. Seen part of that, I did want to see. It was important to me to see where she died. and, oh, I was in the park state in the park. and the cap there and had access to all the people park that new julian, that it also nor story beautiful little area down by a stream and that's where died over twenty years later Tom says he still hopes answers enclosure are found. He also hopes that community will continue to talk about the good memories that julie left behind

The the. I caught nominee, carry mulligan and demi nominees erica's on star in she said as new times reporters megantic enjoyed canter, who together bright one of the most important stories in a generation a store. that shattered decades of silence around the subject of sexual assault. In hollywood and I did a shift in american culture. Continues to this day, the film hey stars, oscar nominee patricia clarkson and winner, Dray brower tony winner, jennifer easily with academy award nominee samantha Morton,

she said a in theatres november, eighteenth. the hello and welcome to real crime profile, at least is embody a casting director, and I have a real interest in real crime, and these amazing minds that try so hard to solve these cold cases. And I'm richards criminal behaviour, analyse for many scotland yard, founder paladin national stoking advocacy service in haste of the pot costs crime on a list of joint committee retarded the April, followed foreign military brush gear and host of the package busk is worst case and we are very happy to be rejoined by very special guest. I am catherine mile limit investigative journalist and the author of trail, one woman's quest to solve the shenandoah ardors. Now one interesting connection, Catherine, you actually heard our interview with bill thomas

right and you had listened to row crime, profound and listen to our interview. With with bill and working yes about real crime profile in our thoughts and our analysis, so we just have to get you want to talk about your book I witnessed Firstly, I have been listening to your hide casper, almost as long as it's existed and do I'd. I'd obviously took particular interest in the interviews that you did with the autonomous and with the colonial parkway murders, which you know as we talked about before. I think how some real similarities that are worth considering with these cases. What do you do for criminals Let's dive right back into it. Let us talk a little bit about the fbi's involvement Kim because it there I put out a strongly worded press release, didn't nay, asking people to assess nor enforcement with the conviction of a person responsible for the double homicide of lauren, unduly There was clearly someone in their line of sites. Can you just explain what happened yet

in german, his colleagues a pass. Let's say that that the profiles from the start said that white investigator should be looking for was someone who had a history of sexual violence and that this was not the person or persons first crime, that the person was in fact a very sort of organised criminal and pointed to some other potential crimes of this person had committed as well do so again in my very mature armchair opinion. They had it completely and totally right. You know in terms of who they believed it as you have led the line that the administration of the fbi is going to follow the recommendations randy everyone now session, I mean which is a learning loudly, what happened and lots of times Seen as these you know voodoo people, who don't really know investigation when actual Every single one of the people in the behavioral analysis unit has at least ten years of experience, actually doing.

these kind of violent crimes and sexual crimes investigations. But what happens a lot of times is that the people above us, I have other agendas that they also have to serve, and, and part of that is that the national park serves as a whole. They want people to think it's holes, and healthy and safe, and maybe it isn't maybe it's really dangerous place, especially when there's somebody who's killing people. Multiple people in the space of six months So you would think that that would be an alarm sounding reason. then a let's just me this a little more amorphous and make it maybe it'll go away. This is bullshit just bullshit, one of the things that was brand new to me as a civilian was just how little the different branches of the f b, I know, necessarily communicate right. So, whether it's, whether it's a lead,

jeanne choosing to communicate or not with the ba you, whether it's a lead agent, choosing to request that certain evidence is tested or not. That was news to me. I guess I assumed that off we evidence got tested and a dozen you know it's the same thing with the glowing barclay murders. There have been case agents and the case agent does have a tremendous amount control over the case and the investigation and what is tested and what isn't tested. There are cases in which, like colonial parkway, where the case agent would shut down outside advice, let me put it that way that they want it to be in control and they saw anybody coming in from the outside as a threat to that control. I mean it's so petty and it's so ignorant, but this happens because the people those agencies, like the fbi and the other. Seventeen hundred law enforcement agencies in the united states, are just that: their people,

They have their own problems, they have their own issues. I'll say that I proud to have been part of that, and I am certain that the vast Jars of those people would not engage in that kind of activity, but I will say that of them. Do it's just aberration it's it's absurd. My mentioned that about the press release out. She was just as it was a curious point for me, and I don't know The gym knew this, but the attorney general Ashcroft announced in ninety ninety six. The shenandoah matters were solved. Ground until two thousand to two thousand. save, but darryl David rice was the person who was believe two heads to being the killer ride and it was thereafter the there was a press least it was put out it just seem to be a very odd, sir, quince of events in terms of the press release going out afterwards say it does. The bit that I really want to do to talk about. Catherine, just that happens and then he had before

to any sort of evidence. Testing is set for, because you do talk about rice in the middle section of the bird It would just be very useful to hear how back came about, and then you don't. some of the things to do with evidence and fbi involvement, and so on right, so darrell, David rice, who was indicted for this crime. In two thousand chair and the charges against sterile rice were very quietly decision best using a little known legal concept called without prejudice in two thousand and four and without prejudice is basically this legal concept that prosecutors use usually when there was a procedural problem. In a case, the case had gone up to jury selection, both the f b. I the national park service,

dangers and the prosecutors were very convinced that they're all rice had in fact been the perpetrator in this crime. Despite the fact that he looked nothing like what the ba you had said, they should be looking for and despite the fact that there was no evidence whatsoever that could late dare to the prime other than one very strange, circumstantial phone call, which we can talk about. But anyway, in the face of multiple dna tests, all of which had excluded, dare arise as the contributor of the dna that was taken from the crime scene,

face of all of this in the face that there was no evidence linking their rights to the case, despite tens of millions of dollars that were spent, including you know, under cover agents embedded in the cell fabricated issues of the washington post, you know surveillance hours and hours and hours of interviewing. So so what happened then was in the face of those recognising that there was really no way they could get a conviction. Prosecutors dismissed the case without prejudice or requested that the judge dismiss the case without prejudice, which basically means they can bring the case back right where it was, which was jury selection at any time. So, as far as I can tell, darrow rice is the only

Your men in a federal capital case, which, incidentally, is also our nations first guttural capital hate crime case using enhanced satin, saying he's the only individual walking around right now, who literally lives in a state of double jeopardy where this case can be brought back not from the beginning, but basically where it was left off at any time. And so if it is true and back that there arises innocent and- and I believe he is, there is a miscarriage of justice here- that that we can't even bigger my account for yeah. I don't know, I don't know how you explain that they they clearly were incapable at the time of of proving the case, which is why they withdrew it without prejudice. But I suppose there is that at some point somehow in the future they will be able to prove that he was the one. It's

maybe pie in the sky hope because I mean there was nothing forensically to connect him so I dont know why that it, you know. Maybe you can talk about that. One phone call This is the most bizarre detail and with the world should say that MR rice may not be no be guilty of this crime, but he certainly is an angel and what he did to the victim that he did. He was convicted in serve time, for I thought was horrible. He ran away. Off the road was on her bike. Terrorism her and just stopped himself before really hurting her and assaulting I don't know what do we know that I mean yeah, ok, yet, whereas your ball, only I've never heard of him before, and I would ever I'm telling you right now is what is in your book. So and I want it and I want I want. First of all, I want to agree with ninety nine percent of what you just

right, which was yes, darrell rice, hoo, hoo hoo suffers from significant mental illness did in fact runner cyclists off the road said threatening things to her. the time in prison for doing that, and I in no way shape or form want to excuse that behaviour. You know as a woman who cycles and runs the idea of that happening. To me, I agree is terrifying, but I dont know that we know that he intended to do anything other than run her off the road and virtually terrorize her and again, that's plenty that is a very very early in the social measures to very frightening for sure what the alternately served time, poor with attempted murder and then he was also required to register as sex offender, And- and

I have to say that again- and I say this as a woman- I dont know that that either of those two things were true. Yes, he harassed her. Yes, he terrorized her one hundred percent. Yes, he should have been convicted and serve time for those things but why don't know that we know it was going to go any further? I think yeah, but you just have to look at it at the sex crimes of it a slightly different, because a good percentage of sex offenders do not engage. And sexual activity, the way that you and I think of sexual activity they have their own way of.

You look at it. I mean there are sexual sadists who never actually touch a person's body and yet get off sexually from the beer that they have engendered in their victims. Just the fear is sexually arousing and it can make them actually ejaculate in their own pants because they are so sexually excited by inducing fear, causing and witnessing that fear. So if he's threatening somebody with actuality with sexual crime with sexual assault? This could be my, but if he is he I mean he said, show me your text. So blurry one Why is it yeah? But are you saying that he's doing that because he doesn't care about it that it has not? That has no sexual component his brain? He followed alone witnessed a lone female cyclist, yvonne you're a kind of drink he chased off the road he threatened. Her came section there was sexual obscenity, is he

and he wanted to violate her privacy ruin her day. Nerve racking I mean that they're not normal things, that a normal functioning human being wants for a lone female and he may be rain, slow or interrupted yeah. We don't know the full extent of what may I've come to pass more Jim's, trying to explain as the he may well have had a sexual rights, action? To that and putting someone in fear is parts of sadism and nuts the enjoyment aspect an end is. He may not have been emotionally or intellectually capable of carrying out what he has going on his brain. He may not be that sophisticated, so that may be. Why didn't go any further or that may be the extent of what he was going to do, but putting somebody in fear if they intentionally place somebody in

that is the cry authority committed. So you don't need to go further. You don't need to have a sexual touch, but he made it clear that it was sexually when he talked about that. So I've been in cases where we are a teacher paddle somebody. You know for discipline that was sex. Somebody you administered animas, that was sex. Another doctor who measured every bone length in boys body in his in in his practice and that with sexual for him and all these things were successful prosecutions because for them, luckily, we had the insights of their journals and so forth. the repetition of certain things and, and we got we, we got insights into what was going on in their brains, but that's how we expanded the whole definition of sexual and I'm not you know, look I'm not questioning anything that you're saying you have intimately involved

itself in this investigation. You know the details, I get it and you may know this guy better than I do, but what I'm saying just keep an open mind in terms of what is sex to one person may not be to somebody I, and I'm just saying I'm just saying: does this rise to requiring someone to register as a sex offender? That's what I'm asking obviously did, because it happened, right and again, I am not trying to excuse any of their all racist behaviour in july of mighty ninety seven. What I'm trying to say is Darrell racist behaviour in july of ninety. Ninety seven does not equate to there all right, a double murderer right, and I think that is a very important distinction and I think that you know he was. He was convenient apparently, and I do not believe I think you are correct. I do not believe that he has the history that would lead to the point where he would have been a capable of committing crimes

the inner shouted he's not sophisticated anywhere near the level of the offender that we're talking about, and when you have people that are so focused on the fantasy aspect and the bondage aspect, the intelligence level is pretty high and the forensic, so instigation in this case in these double murders are its very high and the criminal sophistication is very high. What darrell did what he's got bore was laughable unsophisticated criminally and forensically, and so I would have ruled him out very early in that in that to be a gym. He did change the place of the car and you did change his clothes say. That is a lump sum of thing here. You have to do some thinking level, but is it proportionate is in terms of what the sentence, I think is what you're saying cases while is that sentence purple to what he did? Well, no, that's

what we tend to see, but I would also argue that may sex offenders don't get the proportionate sentence that they should receive an image killer when they terrorize women, I would to see sentences light that handed out say. Yes, I hear what you're saying the other piece of information that you document very well is the undercover operation, where an fbi agent, whose trains in back run out analysis. Jim was talking the thing is it for three years so back and forth with letters, and so on we want you to set up a bit about that, because that, for me The reason why I salute him out actually based on the very long term, on the cover operation, to see whether he would confess, given everything the it was done in terms of exhausting that line of inquiry has led me to play it's, not our rice. He killed julian lobby.

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so this was an fbi agent on one of the best in counter terrorism, an undercover investigations who wants very Mislaid infiltrated skin had neo nazi organization in the pacific northwest and said to them. You don't. We really ought to train ourselves what to do if they ever police raid and they all agreed- and he said so on saturday- let's get together and work at a practice that- and they said, ok great, he said well, let's practice getting out of hand costs if we, if we never give find ourselves handcuffed, to be managed at handcuffed this entire org, because each did and then real himself as a law enforcement officers self.

so the f b. I tapped him to come in and again working with multiple behavioral lists and psychologist created an identity for this individual, where he was awesome, a grateful dead fan and he had some anger about his ex wife. He was an outdoors person and not only was he placed in daryl sell on multiple occasions, but then he started this this. This letter writing correspondence and again the fbi fabricated, they thought well if they could prove a copycat crime. Maybe darrell would open up to this guy who, but were MIKE Mccarthy was his arm was his name. The real the real investigators name is my german, and so they created the scene where

where MIKE Mccarthy had been in shenandoah had come upon. Some women had killed them had lit a fire to cover the evidence and then had to get out of the country. So this is where the fbi fabricated in time, or issues of the washington post, presumably detailing this crime, then because MIKE had to get out of the country? I can keep decided to go to holland or denmark, belgium. I can't remember they then sent an f b. I agent what we're there to get stationery and stamps, and things like that, so that he could it could appear as if he was writing from overseas all in an attempt to get darryl to to say anything that would suggest that he had anything to do. I mean one of my favorite moments in all of these letters. The the character

Mccarthy is just going on and on and on about how much he hates women and how you know they. You know they rejected him, and so they should be punished in and one for it. You know darrell s liking have you thought about doing yoga, you know, which is just a moment of liberty, are you now in a situation where there is very little levity. To be add, that is interesting. That he was trying to get him to de escalate. I guess, but you know I have no idea what his particular psychology is, but, but I dont see him as being sophisticated enough, and I mean he, it was some similar to how we distinguished the in the cases between we'd phoenix hours on end mesa, arizona and that one offender was doing snatching, grab abductions and the other fender was posing as a a fire marshal building spectre of construction worker. Now,

king on doors, the doing the surveillance of the the interior on a prior occasion that coming back later and actually breaking in that sophisticated behaviour. That's what we see in china, door, murder, sophisticated behavior, but what this guy's has done, chasing knocking a woman off the road. You know when she ran a bike. I mean that's totally insufficient It I mean is not. It is not the kind of behaviour that would be that that would be be considered by the man who is fantasizing about this perfect crime and what he's going to in spending time and causing all this. While this sadistic torture, spinning time in that fantasy, and it sounds like my gave. Every opportunity see for him to. I get into that sexual fantasy and at every opportunity he was pushing him back and kind of saying. I think you need help. You know who needs meditation and yoga, he was the one saying

I feel uncomfortable with their summit. It took him nine months to write back Jim. You know that that clearly wasn't that fantasy level and then, if you adding forensics, to which I think again, you described quite well no forensic evidence that places rice there, which we know there are others that perhaps should have been looked tat fox. closer? So shall we move to that point? Unless there was anything else you wanted to say about the rice specific because obviously he has lived his life as if he is the main source, But in this case, which we made them is very clearly is unacceptable, either arrest tim charge, him but having hanging over his head all this time, and yet there are others that should have been a major priority, can't say whether that is happening behind the scenes? I know you pose a lot of questions towards the end. I certainly be interested in Jim's viewpoints,

anything else, you want to write about rice. Could you do cover in detail in your book? No one, I should say I can't say conclusively whether here anyone else debtor didn't do it. You know what I can say is of all of the: u know former f, agents of all of the forensic psychologists of everyone else that I talk scenario I couldn't find Anyone other than the two agents most intimately involved in this case, who believe It was there all right for all the reasons that we ve talked about right. You know darrell's life had come completely unhinged at that point. You know he's bipolar, skip the frantic you're here, truck, incidentally, had not been cleaned in years and years and years and was you know gone over with just call me and I'm no evidence was found. So you know at best at best, the case against him is incredibly weak and based on one piece of shit. From stanch all information which again is you know, I think, I'm as LISA

alluding to earlier is just so far in the weeds that it's even really hard to talk about in an intelligent way. I went away to read about it in the book and and towards that point I don't know if we were want to spoil you lead it's down a very interesting trail, no pun intended towards who you think you know maybe should have gotten more of a serious look, but in all of this labyrinth sting for rice was overlooked. In some way, so I do if we want a voice who that is or not or I don't away went to go from here. but I hope I are we talking about yvonne. It's yeah, we're! Ok! I know because I mean we we seized his his. I ve collection and in a number of the videos that he had in his pornography collection. He he's he's spliced in videos of him

doing what we called the penis walk, where he would walk in public with his penis out, and you know erect and things like that and- and he also spliced in some some interactions with victims, and we didn't find anything like he was. He did that behavior outside right, the penis walk, sort of thing, and so that that is somewhat consistent, but- and I do not believe that we do that, we found anything that was anything that was indicative of his involvement in this you know I'd. I tell his though in a mitochondrial. Dna task is excluded right right because of because of two places. One of which were

as considered a lab error and the other places. Where is where there is a forty per cent chance that you're going to have a hetero plasmonic misfiring, so that your own dna is going to be different than that and what I found very troubling and again what I talked about in detail in the book is at that point the lead agent had tested this dna against both Daryl right and mark of on its it came back conclusively, not they're all rice, it came back, come you know, capable of honest, and not be rolled out because of what we think is potentially lead. error and or the situation called hydropower me that causes our own dna, the misfire protein, and, at that point the lead agent. Sad. Ok, thanks

re run it one more time and then this time just run it against rice, and at that point no more forensic testing was done against IRAN. Its despite the fact that the ep, the eyes on lab, had said that upon its could not be excluded and that's what I find so troubling and then very shortly after that, the avant its task force was disbanded, and so, as far as we know, a violence has not been further investigated, not only for this crime but for multiple other primes. Do I know if he did it. I dont, I do think, he's a stronger suspect than rice and as far as we know, he hasn't been investigated with even a modicum of the detail that they're all right. How? Then he can't be excluded right now and that's a real problem for me, I mean I all agree. I don't I don't have to say I just don't recall what you know from from that time period what we ended up, what ended up

happening with respect to this, but obviously not testing him. Not testing, is dna by an vital, literally only focusing on rice that just that makes no sense. I mean why, wouldn't you do it? just take a back step. Is our listeners won't know who we're talking about? Thus a cat I knew I needed became to say something that you just be helpful. I think just explain who avenant says how he has appeared, the bird. Can you introduce him while you introduce cholera, robinson first and talk about what happened with car ass? A perhaps can you just detail will happen the car and then how we get to Man mark Evan, right, absolutely so caravans and who was fifteen years old at the time, was staying overnight with a friend in south carolina. She was approached by man in the driveway watering flowers. She was approached by a man who said that he was there to sell magazines. He had gone out with her

located in the magazines, and he managed to abduct her. He put her in a rubbermaid container and brought her back to his house where he sexually assaulted her multiple times and gave her drugs it's all sorts of other things? You know, and then I had. She was in this, this strange kind of bondage board where she was handcuffed and then the handcuffs were kind of looped through this bondage board on his headboard of his bed. He fell asleep. She her roic lie managed to extricate. Her fell from the situation, had memorized another details of everything, including the serial number of the rubber made container that she'd banana managed to get out of there part man, hey a father and son in a car who took her to a local police precinct when it was based on, on her utter, like I think, cool, headed nurse, her intellect her bravery and you known twelve other things and money

saying right now that she was able to do this and give them enough information bad on what resulted was this multi state police chase which ended with gone? It's taking his own life in florida as police were kind of bearing down on him. You know and based on the nature of this, this crime and based on what had been discovered in his house, which was like a horror shawl, and I think that Jim alluded to some of this of you know dozens of pairs of of women and girls panties with holes cut out of them women's hair. That was being captain disk boxes. You know pornography that would hire streams based on all of this, they did start looking at him for other crimes and they were able to successfully pin three crimes and katie and kristin lisk two sisters and then Sofia silva. Those are three of the seven of these murders that occurred,

in sixteen months and in a fairly small radius around shannon donations park at one point again of on its was looked at for lolly and julie's, and I mention that with the dna he was ruled out on what the investigators involve told me was that they had rolled him out because they felt like he was a petty file. I think that's a misuse of that term. I do not think mark of on its was a petty file. I do think he liked teenage girls. I also thank Julie, looked like a teenage girl so on. If that term, if they use that term, there completely ignorant because pedophiles rowley attracted to prepare crescent children, not teenage, there's. So that is that's absolute, accurate. He wasn't there's no indication at all that he was a petty file, but the fact that he objected teen girls and law he and did look very young. It could have been from a distance that he thought that, but even so,

even if they were older. We see all the time cross over in age groups of by offenders. I mean when you can't get somebody who is within your targeted victim pool Then the person who is available in vulnerable can be taken, and you know you can't ignorant rule out just because just because they don't absolutely fit into all the the victim selection criteria, one can, if I could just jump and it gets worse. What I was arthur taught by these investigators was at one of the reasons they rolled out upon. It was because the the women in his corn had shaped vagina, so he must like previous that girls, to which I would like to say, you don't had they ever watched, worn because I would do

you define anyone, male or female, who stars important. Who has any kind of pubic hair. You know, but in their mind that was true that yvonne, it's only favoured young three percent girls again, despite, as you said, two of his three known victims, were you know that very sexually mature? And so again that was put there- was a huge reason why a violence was ruled out for these other crimes involving young women over the age of eighteen, where he was Your king, twenty three year old sixteen year old, there was a list of women, and just to re, emphasise that in serial killer cases we ve had children who being stalks and adopted as well as women, and you sometimes can't tell the difference between pay per person in asia and twenty to twenty five year old. So it's it's just a nonsense

no, you were truly closely with the carry stain our case. I think that's a really great example where you know: carry steiner's original target, were young girls, but he also, you know, had killed women. Who were you now again sexually for women, and I think that that range is very comparable here is and train the rangers in yosemite on that case, but I there's so much learning in each of these cases, where the other thing about shaving off pubic care that can be about? being forensically aware too. That could be something the perpetrator does and its much more about being for equally aware and it could be about power friends, choice as well, but I you know I say that it can't be here

and wherein there are just so many question marks, and that is the question marks. That is the things that need to be answered. He was originally a suspect in the severe silver and lisk sister's case. Wasn't he he was originally a suspect, but he. We never a no. You said I think, in the book virginia law enforcement hadn't had be evidence needed to obtain a court order. Forensic testing, I wasn't sure why he wouldn't have been investigated thoroughly. At that point. I don't know if you might know you might know, while he was when they do they do you all. I save clothes, those cases and, in the case of a common market, was christian or katy list her. No, I dont know turkey about off to it being so. I m talking about He was originally a suspect in the cases, so it has been attributed to him now, but I'm just curious about how he came up. you know originally in the invest negations, I don't have to

has any my memory, I recall, I'm afraid I'm I just don't amber now. He was also considered a suspect in multiple rape cases as well, and then that didn't go any further to for reasons that you know is used. I can't say, is well as is disturbing it just history Jim and of course you know why would he not be thoroughly investigated, and I mean in terms of other clear ups, you no other this is even now- why it wouldn't it's not clear that his dna is even on the database and other cases, the route, twenty nine cases and more so, why haven't? Why haven't had been any comparisons? Sparkling, it is bad for you. I can't answer to that question Well, and not only that but united continue, obviously to work on this case, and I continue to work on other cases and I'm working very closely with some innocence project attorneys. Right now, looking at him for several other murders, including one here and now

where I live, which again is his classic ammo and we know that he was, he was living and working in just a few miles from one. This particular crime occurred. So you know in his final moments when he was talking to his sister. You know she said to him. How many times have you done this and he said more than I can count now was that just broke? otto possibly on, but but I think it's also true and then the f b. I thought that this was legitimate enough, that, as I mentioned, there was a special task force. and that was looking at yvonne. It's fair for sexual crimes, ranging from California to florida and back and ranging decades. So I don't think we know the extent of marked of an it's his crimes and- and I know that you know for victims found ways. You know for people who may or may not have been wrongly imprisoned by thing for all of those people and more, we really need to start unpacking has raw it for another, where the reason can we at least conclusively rule him out of cases like shannon dough and really start. You know, dr

our attention elsewhere to finally get some some resolution. In this case, I think that's a very good path that should be taken, and I dont know if it will sometimes confounds me, but The problem is that being on the outside? Now the fbi generally and for good reason, is, is is a one way street in terms of information once a case, a sob. They do make a public statement about it, but many times during the course of the investigations, the very tight lipped about it, either, and I understand the reason for that, but its frustrating to not now, whether they're doing anything about this one is frustrating. Because you know we have a freedom of information, act, request, practice and policy here our country minutes constitutes its.

You know what sort of looking for congressional laid mandate at right and the number of freedom of information act, requests that I have had denied for no reason. The fbi and wrongly denied from the fbi. That's where I take issue. Yes, should the particulars of cases remain? You know kept from people like me, one hundred percent, but I can't even get the f b I did tell me whether or not of honest says dna is on quotas and and that's that's not calling any case into jeopardy. To tell me that information, you know, and I think I think we need to hold the fbi accountable and sure that it is in fact doing its raw. You know as a public institution and that it is in fact serving the public in these particular ways now agree with you. making when it comes to violence against women. We know is reassure ring if we told the

His dna is on the database because then we know that things are being compared. We don't need to know the ultimate results of that until they conclude, but it's just reassuring to know that that that's being done- and I think He raised some very good questions in and for me, if it's not him, then who the fuck is. That you ve got so many women being killed us alarming to me, you know: If it's not one person have we got two point: zero killers which, as we know the probability, in a very small geographic area becomes less likely. You ve got me to pool serial killers are leisure, and when Lord or the pacific northwest struck virginia off my list as well as it is clearly hot spots right in and is already alarming, though, people on hearing about the level of investigational priority being given and if there isn't a priority, given them, that's even more concerning so I think you re some very good questions in the

there's so much more detail. We could go in slowing down so may for milk faces that appear, including our laura richards appears in the book, which was a big shock. When I turn that page- and you also capture so beautifully our friend, he'll do tell us, I mean you capture him I'm not gonna. I want people to read it, but you you'd nailed it. You nailed. It's been an incredible human rights and he's got such a friend to me and to the project, And- and you know I mean thank god- for people like bill thomas who are beating the drum and demanding justice. You know we were all better served. it absolutely absolutely set young, you know just to extend the offer of help. In a now I gotta better contacts, and you know I just want to let you know that if you need assistance in, I do hope you continue to pursue their son, and I would certainly like to continue the conversation give the prevalence of violence against women and girls. That is incredibly generous and I'm very

very grateful, and I would like to take you up on that. So thank you very much excellent. Will please go out folks. Please get catherine miles amazing, but trailed. One woman's quest to saw the shenandoah murders. It will draw you and she will draw all kinds of it was for you and you will just absolutely be fascinated and moves incredibly moved by the things that that you talk about so many things I mean and thank you katherine for the book and for the work you did and are continuing to do and for coming on real crime profile till next time. Thank you for listening. This is real crime profile. Signing off real crime profile was it by Jim committee or richards and leases and betty produced by law. Richards leases embedding Jim Clemente an extra productions

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