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gaze are to sixteen. The names are to ten The resolution is adopted without objection. The motion to reconsider is laid on the table. The office of speaker of the house of the union state house of representatives is hereby declared vacant. Someone said now. Kevin mccarthy is no longer speaker, he's no longer trumps Kevin, he's no longer anyone's Kevin is just a back bencher from bakersfield who got cocked by Matt gates and seven other house republicans that he helped elect in the first place. They joined every house Democrat in voting to remove mccarthy after gates filed a motion

vacate, which he was allowed to do because of a deal mccarthy agree to back in january in order to get the job that he has now lost anyway, mccarthy ally, Patrick Mc Henry is serving is temporary speaker until has republicans hold an election next week, but between now and then we can all continue to enjoy a whole lot of this. Those eight people in august in their chaos caucus members traders, all eight of them should in fact be primary. They should all We driven out of public life this autumn on my mac gay to hates- let us be clear, he hates cover mccarthy and I- pay expelling from the conference. The republican party today, just ten cover Democrats have become the party of discipline in the republicans upon the party that,

it's discipline. Now that house, that has a slim republican majority, looks like they can't govern. They have a strong case when you go to these swing districts and say: look at you, you gave you saw the chaos in the house. You've got to put a Democrat in charge, give who came Jeff is the gavel: whos fox and friends, ARI Fleischer, newt gingrich. Ah, it's good, it's good dan. Alright! So reporters who are on the hill Tuesday said they saw multiple house republicans crying and praying over mccarthy's demise, which one have you been doing dan crying or praying laughing laughing hysterically the whole time. Do you see any way? Mccarthy could have saved his job, or was this inevitable from the moment he struck a deal with the freedom cock that would allow a single member to file a motion to vacate which Matt gates took him up on.

I don't know that it was inevitable, but it was highly likely once he made that decision, which no person should ever have accepted that any, except that to get mad gates's vote, who also did not vote for Kevin Mccarthy. just shows what a brilliant legislative leader Kevin Mccarthy as the way mccarthy has gone. The speaker. Since agreeing to the motion of occasions, he was gonna operational, ices entire strategy around appeasing the gnat gates of the world. And like every other historical example of an in strategy that, when did not work, what he could have done, which may may not have worked but would have given him a great chance of survival, would have been to try to build a coalition where he did. Why did I pains me to say this, but Paul ryan and John Vainer did, which was isolate freedom to people personal mount rushmore? What is what

to where he put his opposition, where he may become deals with Democrats governed in a more but slightly more by partisan fashion, and then maybe have counted on. You could see a world where Jared golden Josh got heiner some of these other more. Ah, these Democrats, who operate or perhaps our carcase or unworkable districts might have voted to save mccarthy, but he never did that because he stuck his thumb in the eye of every Democrat. In order to crawl up the butts of all the maga republicans yeah, I hear a lot of people. Pandits Democrats, again saying you know he. This was inevitable you you know you give you give mad gates a loaded gun, it's going to use it right, eh and it's just it's only inevitable if you think that the only path is to placate the hard right. Republicans in your caucus, like I, I don't understand why mccarthy couldn't have like built. A coal

in government? You know a coalition style government where, like you, got the republican problem, solvers plus the Biden district, republicans plus a few. The Democrats you mentioned and then, if a gates or or someone like that files, a motion to vacate, then maybe you have a couple If the Democrats willing that we are of good chunk of democrats willing to bail you out and end one, all you have is eight to ten hard right republicans who are willing to kick you out of the the chair, there is a chance. Some number of Democrats would have voted for mccarthy if they thought he was better than the alternative, but he did nothing not one single time during his tenure to show them I he would be better in the alternative he just sort of ran ass, the freedom caucus speaker. The Democrats are never can help that person. Well, republicans are, unsurprisingly, criticising has democrats for not voting to save mccarthy. Here's a good summary of that argument from conservative columnist, Matt louis in the daily beast quote. Although dems aren't to blame for

it's chaos. They have a moral obligation to strive for the best outcome for america and based on the likely alternatives. Speaker, Mccarthy is probably as good as it gets. Instead of siding with sanity, Democrats have decided to side with gates. It's not a good look. No. You made that last part out. I I honestly it sounds like a take that Elijah would make up for take appreciators. First of all, anyone who says it's not a good look, I'm just I'm sorry. I don't care what side of the aisle you're on or care what your political persuasion is. It's a I'm so sick of the phrase. It's a twitter phrase doesn't doesn't work for me, don't put it in your fucking call him dan. Why did partisan hacks like you want to put politics ahead of the best outcome for america, europe

with your message box, tellin Democrats not to save Kevin Mccarthy. Why do you why you care so little about the countries will be many people are saying. Democrats were about to save him until I had sent on that subject: stack tied, turned the capitol hill reporters really white government who he is an affable doofus he pals around with them he's probably a big punchbowl subscriber he he the chance of them off the record, they like him, he gives them access and it actually says how bad a jog mccarthy did. It is job that he got such bad press coverage over the course of that time, but whenever there opportunity comes where they can write nice things about em. They weep at it. So all the and there has been this transformation- that Kevin Mccarthy as a martyr when he's actually just a moron, he he he will think about Kevin Mccarthy's tenure. He pushed the big lie:

for the election, he voted to overturn the election hours after a violent mob tried to murder his staff. In colleagues, he held the forbidden by the united states hostage to get a budget deal. He walked away from that budget. Deal to try to shut down the government to hold aid to ukraine hostage. He pushed a listen, unfounded ridiculous impeachment have Joe Biden what possible reasons with Democrats have to help this person keep his job is absurd. Kevin, or was bad. It is job he was a bad faith. Actor who was not someone Democrats could with, and you imagine that you would vote. Democrats cannot vote to make someone in the line of the presidency, who voted to overturn the election out of fealty to donald trump. That is an absurd proposition. I well. Now you don't play you don't know. I can't wait to hear this. No, I just didn't you don't even need to

Get that far with him right like because, first of all, I would be going through your list of Mccarthy grievances, all of which are points very well taken no, I I'll say that he surprised me a little bit on the debt ceiling and this last government funding thing like he risked the full faith in craig united states, but he he didn't do with these hard right wanted there. He cut a deal with Joe Biden, which was the beginning of his problem, and then his problems snowballed to the point where he then lost his speakership when he kept the government open, which they also did not want him to do now. I don't think this is because, like Kevin Mccarthy's, like a responsible guy or a genius tactician or anything like that, but I think that if, if democrats like the whole premise that oh, it's actually democrats fault, they should work with mccarthy is based on like okay. Well, Democrats should have just trusted mccarthy. One

or time to keep his word. Even though we haven't kept his word during the last two deals, didn't keep his word on the deal he made with, Joe Biden on spending right didn't keep his word with any number of times, but it's not that Democrats would have had to trust Kevin Mccarthy because they didn't even get the chance to trust him because he didn't want to deal with them. He said publicly in the last week. I don't want to make a deal with Democrats. I don't want to work with Democrats. I don't want to cooperate. Democrats so like if you're a Democrat, even if you want to punish him for his like odious, behavior around january six and all the other bullshit that he's done, which would be like the right thing. That would be fair thing to do, and you understand it, but if I was, if I had a choice between kicking mccarthy out of the speakership and keeping the government funded

and like getting the ukraine funding in there too, and making sure that we don't have a government shut down in forty five days. You know I probably keep mccarthy there if I could be guaranteed those other things, but like that, it's not even that we can trust him. Is that he'd even want to try and with us It goes to show how untrustworthy is it he had doubts. He was not going to work with Democrats, but then, at the end, reportedly called. came Jeffreys ass. If he could get a deal What did he really? What did it do? You know I just I just tell him. I was really was reported in one of those little news letters that that he reached out to him it even beyond. Just this specific example, there is no more bad faith. Intellectually lazy argument fan democrats are responsible for republican behaviour It is now ironical, lamas fault, forbidding mitt romney that we ended up with donald trump. Is not democrats fault for refusing to Fgm. Another speaker that the republican party is an absolute chaos in the problem, this is not like mag opponents, who do

its they never trump foe, intellect it was who should know better who do this. They can't reckon with how terrible If party is, they have to blame Democrats as a way to explain why their party went down the toilet well. This is an example here we see this all the time, then they should know better. It's embarrassing. I will say that a lot of the whole report, there's that you so malign today the republicans tweeted out the democratic. Ass caught out of it, and then a lot of airports like this is such bullshit like those it like people, people get that it's bullshit, I think, but look I think if you're a democratic lawmaker, you're trying to figure out like yes, it's all the republicans fault but like how do we and we're going to talk about this but like? How do we now keep the government open and again that's the most important priority and

whichever fuckin joker they put in their as speaker matters less than what the policy outcome here, which is keeping the government open and making sure that support for ukraine goes through. I but what comes next steve's glyphs the number two republican in the house who reportedly once referred to himself as David duke without the baggage says, he's running for speaker, Jim Jordan. The trump pal, who former speaker John Vainer, once called a quote political terrorist, says he's running too. and there may be one more candidate for the job as well source telling me at this hour, somehow republicans have been in contact with and have started an effort to draft former president donald trump to be the next speaker. I have now heard from a number people. I know for a fact. Donald trump has been contacted possibly him being an interim speakers out. A reality

Why ray before we start recording today, thursday morning, we apparently now trump is expected to go to capitol hill on tuesday and he is apparently open to pitching himself for the job when he goes to the capital for the first time since he cited an insurrection in january six. Now he is thinking about figure rubbing speaker. Will you think you, on the other from four speaker train? Yet. as Elijah always says, content trumps, the constitution. So absolutely I are, we do not repeat the same new cycle over and over and over again. This is at least the third or fourth time we ve done trumpery speaker, I think, since we started during this podcast

How is it? Is it more? We, I know a dinner on the Mccarthy vote, the fifteen votes. I guess we did it probably back in the trump errors, yeah, I think so yeah and any in sixteen, maybe before. Even now, it's not great, so he, He will be nominated as speaker by at least one house republican, whose already said they're gonna nominated him. Margaret yellow Green said that he's her for and only choice so far for speaker, so he'll probably get some votes on the first ballot butts the reasons why he's probably unlikely to win number one? Any speaker can only lose for republicans, so trump could only lose for republicans, which makes it that makes it seem a little tricky that he's going to get everything republican on board, but though, but for then there's another problem summit

and is rule twenty six in the house that that has republics are part of the house republican rules. A member of the republican leadership shall step aside, if indicted for a felony for which a sentence of two or more years imprisonment may be imposed so that stuff, but of course, of course, republicans made that rule I'm sure they would change it for donald trump. He was like yes, Also, I would like to know the legislative history of how they chose the two year minimum like. Are there a series of crimes? They thought someone in line for the leadership can get that had a maximum sense below two years in prison, but our fellow by then our availability and like a misdemeanor like a felony, but it's an under two year- yeah, ok, Jordan, in school. How do you think this race plays out and is there any chance? We get someone who's not worse than mccarthy. In every way, I would say that Jim Jordan and steve's police are both worse than Kevin Mccarthy, but I don't know how do you think this place up.

We should assume whether its thieves, police or Jim Jordan or any else, including, including down trumpet. Whoever is these elected speaker by these house. Republicans is a deeply dangerous, malicious, dishonest conspiracy theory propagating nagasaki like that is eight. That is a job requirement to be speaker of this republican out like that is going to happen now how this place out, I think, is interesting. Jake sherman of punch wall tweeted yesterday, wednesday that every person he had talked to in the republican caucus staffers members that there is no way that could be over by wednesday through Would seem impossible now, while we were preparing today learn barbaric tweeted that but but she'll do you know how to say no amateurs laughing and browsing an imbecile, their work. When I think that here again, I barely range, we now look to the theatre fan lauren bert. overt laurent beetle juice bogart three

that she would banned in emotion to vacate role? If jordan became the speaker, which was interesting, but if this goes long, I think the odds that it ends up being someone other than Jordan and police goes up because it It's hard to get you never have you never want to be the first couple candidates and those in a speakers? Well, it's hard to if you you're, if it's highly polarized and you end up with a whole bunch of people who are voting for scully's and against jordan, and vice versa. It gets harder to say it's easier. If you put a vote for a third person than to vote for the person, they've been opposing this whole time and Jim banks, who is the head of the republican study committee and sort of a prominent conservative tweeted that he was supporting at least the phonic a speaker ugh. I know, but, as I said, this only ends one way and it's not good and yeah. I've been watching today, as we were about to record a sort of

slew of house republicans came out saying that they're going to endorse jordan. The trick here is, as you would expect, like. You know Scully's as mccarthy's number two, so you expect like mccarthy's leadership, allies and all the people who are Mccarthy folks and some of the more like maine. I won't call them moderate but mainstream republicans and who, like Mccarthy, to just go with scalia in this scenario, but because mccarthy and Scully's never got along or haven't gotten along for a couple of years and there's always been bad blood between them. There was reporting this morning that Mccarthy's staffers have been like quietly reaching out to lawmakers on behalf of Jim Jordan, because Jim Jordan became really tight with mccarthy by the end. So, if you've got like the freedom caucus, nuts plus him mccarthy allies going with Jordan, I think it becomes a

closer race. I think squeeze you know the advantages he has is you know he is number two. He has a whipping operation because he was the house wept. So he knows a lot of these members. You famous liquor it accounting votes de escalation. Deliver your ass, just just nine consecutive votes on the floor floor ass, but he does it, but it doesn't seem like and he doesn't have any one whose like really pissed him. You know it doesn't inspire a lot of hatred. using some wild. That is one I now laws is that we have this republican house, it's not as wild but- and I think Jordan probably has made more enemies over the years, specifically among the more moderate members of the republican caucus, which are now few in number. Whoever republicans pick feel like it. More likely now we're headed for a government shut down in forty five days and less likely that ukraine funding will pass. But what do you think- and the answer is accurate? I think you cry

funny uptake our once. You have opened the door to short term containing resolutions. It gets easier to do it with his wanderings, while they try the the right tried so hard disk, That's what you ve done forty five days. What do you want thirty days you get through thanksgiving in the holidays will come back and have this fight next year on. That's that's gonna happen, but there is a chance that the deaf the issue in this speakers race between jordan and skills? and whoever else may get involved at the end is going to be about the aid to ukraine. That will be the thing that they will base their candidacy and that they will not allow that to happen. some say? Probably uneatable criteria it's going to cause. This is a place where democrats and moderate robbins could work together if there is if the Senate were to pass something where that they could do a discharge petition on to again to find a way to bring so the fork. Is I it's hard to imagine that someone is going to become speaker if this republic. Nearly every member of this republican caucus do it, who can do

turn around in the coming weeks and months, which is why the by the administration said they need the aid by to get that down. That seems very, very hard to imagine in, I think, that's all correct, and even if you zoom out from the ukraine funding and just talk about keeping the government open in general reason, or at least the given reason that those eight republicans booted mccarthy out of the speakership. The end is because he used democratic votes to keep the government up in the first time, which of course he had to do it, because you cannot keep the government open without democratic votes of democratic control. The Senate roebuck endeavour force majeure in the house and a fucking democratic president. So now these guys, you can run for speaker and Jordan's already saying I will not put a ukraine funding vote up, if I'm speaker, so even if Scully's wants do, even if he wants to do the responsible thing or or wanted like mccarthy to, like, maybe figure out ukraine at some point, huskies going to win if he doesn't match jordan's promise on ukraine.

and I'm sure Jordan's going to say the same thing about keeping the government open in general like these people. They want a shutdown they wanted to shut down under Mccarthy. He didn't give them one and now there's going to be a race to see who can get the most republican votes and if you don't think that like shutting the government down, is going to be a stipulation for getting bout, those votes. I dunno what to tell you that I think that's exactly right. Now. It's also, I think, possible and maybe even likely that the next speaker will have a different threshold motion of eight year. I think there of people who will want to change that that even some of these people, the far right other than gates, are not going to want to have to go through this again three weeks from now and that can be the guy, especially if you end up with a third canada. That would be that that's how it happened. What thou Paul Ryan ended up speaker was. They couldn't get Mccarthy that confront anyone else who the carcass supported to do it. They went to mccarthy earth ryan and he said Ass his

In theory to do it he had they had to change the motion to vacate rosso. He could not be at the same time the banner was and they were changed for mccarthy. They could change back. The other issue that I think will come into play here is the border and you're. Already here, Jim Jordan, talk about you know we can, be carrying so much about ukraine and not enough about our own border and I'm not gonna peasant ukraine funding. Unless we do something about the the southern border, and then year, hearing Senate republican, saying who really want to pass ukraine funding, say Ok, maybe we have to send something over that funds, ukraine, but also funds more border security, which some Democrats are okay with funding more border security, but I think with Jordan, mother has republicans want to do is not just like more money for border security, but more immigration restriction, so ignorant, integration amongst the policy changes which I think Democrats are going to go for as they shouldn't. So then you because then you know, then we get into government shutdown territory.

isabel mccarthy, sort of kind of tried to do with the end was to make the shut down about border policy just waited too long to do that, that's a much stronger political hand for republicans where you will find some. You know given the polling on immigration recently and that the trust gap between republicans and Democrats, you could find some Democrats getting pretty nervous pretty quickly on that and, as you could see, the next republican speaker wherever they are, be him execute that with more competence, incoherence than mccarthy did yeah and they're all. I think they're all going to realize that you know negative partisanship rules all and instead of like republican chaos, they all have to unite against the great democratic enemy, and you already saw that with Patrick Mchenry. Who is this the temporary speaker? His first move was to kick nancy Pelosi and Steny hoyer out of their offices and capitol hill, which sort of like there's a few like freedom. because people that were like guide and like mccarthy, but if his this mckendrick guy was kickin nancy closely and steady hoyer out I've, I like em,

ready to slow, petty and stupid. Like me, hats off so silly I so Democrats are already pointing to this. Mass is another example of why the republican party is chaotic and incapable of governing. As they are. Do you think Democrats can make that stick or will most voters have no idea what happened this week, most voters who have no idea what happened this week, even if they did have an idea it is memory hold. there was only nine months ago that republicans to this huge national, embarrassing spectacle to get mccarthy and people forget that critical, I think that for him I think there is an argument about republic in chaos in and competence that we run on, and this can be a data point that on these particularly salient one by next november noise

people are going to realise and what people going to feel is a government shut down, and I think if democrats can make a case- and we should be able to that republicans- have caused the shut down because they are chaotic and capable of governing and that shut down has real effects for people and people's lives. Then that's an argument, but I think the chaos among republicans needs to have a consequence for real people and not yet. Like a fun drama, to watch on the news about Kevin Mccarthy. Getting us did speaking to make an republican care stick with voters. Donald trump is back and marilla go after after spending three days sitting in man, manhattan courthouse for the civil fraud trial. They could spell the end of trumps business Why are judged arthur in gore and slept a gag order on trump after he attacked one of the judges clerks untruth social by suggesting?

but she is dating trucks humor, just as there is a new one which of course, she's not and the post war has removed, but that in stop trump attacking the judge, the attorney general and everyone else it's control and it's a shame the shame of the coming out of DC for the corrupt he's, putting the whole system. On trial out of order year out of order. The horror assumes that order, So lesson learned, I guess from trump: do you think he doesn't care about this gag order or other potential gag orders? Judge chicken is When a rule on this in DC for their jack Psmith case there or is, is trump just constitutionally incapable of shutting his mouth,

Both he's he's obviously constitutionally incapable of shutting his mouth. I also think every part of his life has taught him that he does never faces consequences for what he does yeah, I mean evoking. If you can lead, I mean he may end up in prison and that would be a pretty you're consequence, but after around seven, Eight years old, the first consequence going to prison for donald trump there in the guy. Let him insurrection in united states that almost tried to murder report vice president and the royal party embraced him three months later. So I think he probably feels pretty secure that a couple a mean fruits about. Someone are not going to be the real consequences year because I think the like I mean I'm surprised that he actually took the post down because the judge or hear them too, and he did take it down, so Lee was he's afraid of something happened. I don't feel like. He was in the settings that true social being the one you don't get it. I don't think you do, and that is the reason why you

scowling during the trial. You take a look at the pictures trumped and have to be at this trial this. He was not legally obligated to beat this trial. He was there for three days. Why do you think but there has been some reporting, or maybe speculation in the form of reporting that this was part of some strategy where he can help control the message of the trial, and maybe I mean I do think he is drawn to where cameras are there going to be cameras there? I do think that, even though he is not afraid of things like these gag orders because he thinks they will never have teeth as relates to him, I think this case it scares the crap out of him. Even maybe more than some of the other ones cause. This goes at his identity right even before he like took us a sharp pivot into authoritarian politics. New york businessman was who he was like he all he bred, it himself was a nervous man to hear they're going to say not as rich as he said, he was complete and total fraud and he can't do business in new york anymore. And so I think there is. There is a real of insecure

we here and he's trying to be there to, and then I may be wrong, but he thinks his presence can shape it or he can stare at the judge or do something, but I think he scared by this one. I don't want to assign a strategy to anything. Donald trump does, but maybe it was instinct think he's finding being signing a lot of value in always being camera talking about how the system is against him and everything's corrupt, and it's like it. served him well in the primary so far and rising lay for donald trump. Every day is look in primary, that's what that he knows how to winner republican primary. That's like all of his politics are around winning republican primary. That's that's where he feels most comfortable. I saw you see that he raised five point: five million dollars last quarter. Currently three million of that was just selling merge with his mug shot on it three million dollars they made. he he thinks. There's some value on us. We think their value in just going

front of the cameras and and and arguing his case to the only jury. He cares about Republicans I, if either rhonda, santas or Nicky harry's able to narrow this pulling gap can commit extra crimes, possibly yeah, probably yeah, he'll he'll be he'll, be debate, in cameras in the quorum and the federal trials eat. An oak represents both being the quorum he'll, probably fuckin. Take the stand in criminal self more justly just be harming themselves or other crimes we haven't got do yet these are you asking me for this? A monument thing? Can we do that me, I did I shot tupac also, the way. The fund raising numbers dissenters, raise fifteen million dollars to terms forty five point. Five, but trump has thirty. Six million dollars on hand to spend in the primary santos has five million dollars

holes are getting worse for him. He's now behind mickey hayley in a lot of these Paul, especially the early state poles and he's moving, his entire staff to Iowa seems like things are doing that things are going well for raw for our boy, Rhonda santa's. Now the only four The news doing well in that campaign is Jeff. Row was the person who s all around us into this money and as other pocket. move it whenever you're moving your whole staff tyler and you captain o neill. Oh that's a red flag red flag. There, as I can and I can think of at least two- maybe three campaigns it may that exact move and none of them ended up. As president I mean it's just. I saw so today that our and see insiders we're talking about how to maybe change or forgo the rest of the debates, because trump isn't shown up at the sideshow. No one's getting close to him. I mean things or act, he's going to be the fucking nominee. That's that's where we are you. You think that, with his fifty points

Wheaton palsy might be that it, his multi million dollar financial of energy, might be the nominee yeah since bosnia. They got that. I think that's it. Okay, before we get to break too quick housekeeping notes, as you know, we're big fans of carry him or they may cool eco friendly shoes that we were all the time, wearing them right now. We're excited to be releasing our second collaboration with carrie emma carey, Yuma and love it or leave it. There's just something about fall. That makes you want to get new shoes. So why not get ones made with organic cotton canvas, natural, rubber, cork and recycled plastics? It doesn't hurt that they have tiny surfing dogs on them. They come in pink and black and feature a whimsical scene that will absolutely put some pep in your step, plus carry him a plants. Two trees in the brazilian rainforest for each pair purchased run, don't walk, but not until you get a pair of shoes at cricket, dot, com, slash store with lovers,

leave it paraphernalia all over them. Let's go get em go get him today. Also there's a high stakes november coming up and it may not be the november you're thinking of the media hype has turned to twenty twenty four. I guess we're part of the media hype, but that won't stop twenty twenty three elections from having massive implications for abortion, access, voting rights and more from the virginia legislative elections to the Ohio reproductive rights ballot measure. We have got work to do in the next few weeks. Visit vote, save america dot com, slash no off years to see how you can help. Ok, when we come back, I will talk to a former aid who worked for donald trump and mark meadows and the white house. Her new book is enough. She testified before the january six committee when we come back Cassidy hutchinson vicious sponsored by better help

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is obvious, doesn't make it easy, and so I have a lot of respect and admiration for what you did, which came it at great risk to your future and even your personal safety. I know you said you were nervous about returning to the spotlight like that, had been like so far and has your nervousness been just like this I offer it, probably at council level, legal level for Anxiety was, I think it. It's me. It's a benefit except for the future, you have drive thru I'd, say that's pretty good over the line has been like a week and a half since the book release. I had some time to prepare myself for it. Just as I was writing the book in collaboration with my fantastic collaborator mark salter, who made her a fantastic writer, fantastic

human perfect person to help me write this book, as he was very, never trump from the beginning, so gotten some very good sparring matches that offer the benefits. I I hope and believe in the book. All that said you know with marks it's a little too. I don't think I ever really could have prepared myself for being in the spotlight again. This is not something I ever saw myself doing, but did I realize and recognize the gravity of this moment and it's important to have voices and people like us, hopefully that we can sit and have a diplomatic and productive? conversation even though he might not politically agree on everything, because there is a much bigger issue at stake and that's our country and our democracy. So that's it. That's additives in an adjustment. I don't think it'll ever feel normal, but yeah. It's I'm should so. I've talked to plenty of trump voters, I'm related to a few. You are the first trump voter. I've talked to who's actually worked for him.

Yeah. I think ever, I'm pretty sure, ever my eyes, thy mother, never chalmers promoters of that within focused groups. I know some but like no unknown has worked in the white house for donald trump or in the campaign. So I'm not. Precedent, shaming you for that. But I really want to try to understand it, just with an eye towards figuring out how we can all make sure he doesn't it up in the white house again, which I know is a goal you share. So just a start like what was it about trump at that first rally you went to in April of two thousand and seventeen. I believe that made you want to work for him. Like you described him in the book. it's at his as Matt. He talked about his magnetism. You said you were transfixed like what was it in that rally? You know the the there's. The longer

short answer. The short answer is I at that moment, at the four trolley I didn't have in my mind my goal is to work for donald trump in the white house. I set off to have a career in public service. I identified with the republican party and I had internships on capitol hill that summer. That said, though, I did vote for him in two thousand and sixteen I identified as a republican, but I grew up in a very a political family, but a blue collar family, so being part of the republican party made sense to me, and I agreed with the platform. I voted for him at that first trump rally. I remember or being in the crowd and looking around it's it's so it's so it's so difficult to describe, because I also haven't been to a ton of other politicians rallies but yeah. I was standing around and just looking at

not just him like everybody around me, and it was people that I felt like I recognise out, because I knew them, but because I grew up around people like them, and I saw that they saw something in him and then I felt pulled toward them and then I felt pulled towards him and was almost this sense of like he is representing people like my family. He is going to be the politician that just things and it wasn't like. I just fall in love with maggie movement in that moment, but I felt the law and I felt the draw- and I think that was the moments where my blinders sort of went off and I was looking back now this is then drive telling them, as in that moment sort of his shot off. The he is saying about. Immigrants is wrong. That kind of it didn't come

We go out of my mind but went into the back of my mind, because what I saw there and felt there was that there was a politician that was very abnormal in terms of like what we have seen and experienced as a country. But I felt like he was there for the right reasons at the time, and again this is no. I know I'm not including my hindsight now, but I also tried to write the book in the present moment, because I wanted readers to be able to feel that connection and at least try to use its difficult to describe. It is difficult to write about and not without shame. You know. Look at me, I asked is partly because I spent the last since twenty sixteen twenty fifteen like trying to figure out what so many voters saw him

not for you when there's many explanations out there right, you can look at people. Voters with higher levels of racial resentment, you know, are attracted to trump there's up, but there's this other people will say: there's a working class populist pitch, there's an anti us style. Richmond pitch, there's a I was on the apprentice and I'm a businessman, so I can be successful pitch and I think people's motivations are complex and voters are complex and they believe all kinds of different things, but I'm just like abs curious what it was for you. What part of the message for you is like offices, I think first, it really was I mean this is such a good question as I thought what about it? It's hard to put into words, I think at first it was really less about specific, policy initiatives knows more about how he spoke to people and how people felt they could relate to him, and I would hear my parents are my

a lot of talk not necessarily and admiration of the policies, but talk and admiration of how they felt represented for the first time in her life. Like might my parents had never voted for the first time they voted was for donald and that was sort of a trend throughout, and this is my experience that my answer, but that he he had that poor and it was, I felt I could relate to it in a way that I also at that point I halfway through undergrad, I was my boyfriend at the time did not want to be a triumph rally with me. It is setting the causative d, probably saw it happening in this chamber, but look at her yes, but not a chocolate. Not progress was completely fine parent. We not durant, not big disagreements. Tat went about

I dunno and then you're as I interned. So I went through two internships that summer on capitol hill, one for steve, gleason, second, for ted cruz, I applied for the Steve Scully's internship. I I wanted to stay on capitol hill, so I applied for ivory senate office. So it wasn't, are ted cruz had an opening. I took the internship speaker, and so it was once a beak also began, though, to be exposed into actual the actual work, inner workings of congress and republicans at the time had the majority. It seemed normal and natural to me. That was my first real exposure to politics, and I saw how house republicans, at least from my perspective, how they were working with him to advance the administration's agenda and they were passing bill. So it wasn't. There wasn't much thought going into the actual like nuances of the policies again

not trying to exceed anything, but I at the time was twenty two. So how does it is because I saw in the book you you're, like I interpret, had crews didn't like his politics, Steve school as you like, but you said, he's more conservative anywhere, but then you with these tucked that you set it down trump, was moderate in some ways said when I say that I still believe that to this end, we can debate it if you like you, although I don't know how debating citizens exceeding, however- and it has exceeded vastly different, but he he did, in my opinion, have policies that weren't appealing to that's a freedom caucus members or appealing to the ultra right wing conservatives. He had some policies that

For the lot of them didn't agree with, and even in the first six months, eight months to eat throughout his presidency, a lot of the hard right, wingers didn't agree with you so again from a bird's eye view. At that point, I you know like look, I thought from a just a political perspective of like a strategist. He tried to move at least rhetorically. The centre like protecting, care and medicaid of security and, like the one point, is that it was an attacks, hedge fund people, and so you did what he had to do at point suggests yeah, get a neat rather us during an election or in congress, are an end when he was in the oval office did what he had to do. He wasn't donald trump doesn't have a firm policy platform you I think,

ed serve him well knew tat. I was on the two thousand sixteen campaign, but I think did serve him. While is he had some some sound voices around in the understood, washington and understood what voters wanted to hear and he sometimes would listen to them. Sometimes, wouldn't here here. Sometimes rowing rules that are very loosely but ass. He went through ivy, so the presidency that sort of tapered often so, like I totally understand just being a republican right like I, I worked for obama, two thousand and eight after the campaign. I made friends with a lot of mccain, staffers, still friends some of them would argue about politics. It was fine. I am very proud of the race we ran against mitt romney and twenty twelve though I also have like a ton of respect for him whisper

If what he's done over the last couple of years, as I know, you have respect for him too, but like even setting aside twenty sixteen for trump like in just the first year of his presidency, there was the travel ban, family separation, charlottesville, which was like the cause of the first set of resignations, and then you know, there's all the stories run and gary cone comic adviser was thinkin about leaving too like. How did you think about that first year, as you were deciding in turn their in twenty eighteen then later work there and twenty nine did. I did not give you do those give you those incidents, give you pause or policies, give you pause, I'm pretty myself back in the moment just for church. That's an item I in turn after and turned on capital. how I mean I fell in love with the institution. I and that's why I wanted to say: I fell in love with the house. I in turn in the senate, realise at I fell in love with him

ass, I say I railroad and send it feels pretty slow and I was like yeah. We we felt work in this area were forgotten his first and then, when he was like this place, was the house's find its things move fast at that I like you have things are different now if you're young, for at least another conversation- and I had, in my opinion, great mentors who I still believe are not ultra partisan- aren't never tempers but aren't pro trump necessarily like their their institutionalists. They want to seek the institution function and after I spoke with them, I was thinking about like do I go to a think tank next summer, because again I didn't

grew up in a political environment, but my singular goal with graduating college is: how do I get a job in DC? They knew that I loved the institution and they're like well. The office of legislative affairs at the white house would be the the best option for you, because you are going to see how the Two branches work together, so it was in that moment like okay, that's that's! My next goal is to It was just very I had one thing: I I checked the boxes. Okay, what do I have to do next, so I didn't really have any qualms about interning in the office of legislative affairs under trump, and perhaps I should have, but you know even looking back now. I and I'm not excusing anything that happened in the first year, but I think you know used to say I was in the right place at the wrong time. I don't know if I was in the wrong place, long time are the wrong place at the right time a. I think anybody that has the opportunity to enter

or work in government or in the white house, mean you've been there. It's an incredible place also, I learned so much in that internship that wasn't just how to be they, the slayer for trumps policies its. How does the white house actually work with congress, because at that time, to my goal is to get a job back and leadership? I never thought that out get hired at the white house, gradual and yeah, but when you were like when you were seeing other, what was your reaction when you were like read about all those stories in that first year and I found it wrong. Crazier you have I again, please so that you know that when a euro my present, really putting all that much thought into I wish I hide in this kind of gets a little philosophically myself, but I have gotten some heat I'll try to limit the love it better, but.

It is sometimes I do wish. I had really wish I hadn't, because I think that I would have avoided a lot of this, but at the same time I I I don't regret my tenure in the administration because it brought me to this that's why I'm sitting here with you, and I am not saying that what I did If by writings, am I saying what I did and how I came forward? Was courageous or brave or anything, but what I am saying is I. I hope that there will always be people in the institutions that have some sense of moral integrity and ethics, and I do worry looking back that if I had put more thought into it. had that hindsight, I would have ran for the hills and made It would have been better, I dont know button. I it helps in assent. Having the blinders, because I was able to just do the job and accept it for what it was and be a person on the inside. That was.

Water republican and no, I will put myself in the bag. I believe I have some sense of semblance of integrity and ethical compass, but that could also be defeated. I will give you listen to old episodes of this podcast. in those days we would Yo a lot about pow and gary cone and like the committee to save america and cast off, because as I why I dont think that they're doing much and yet like if they all laughed and and went for him. or phone, then maybe something what happened. You know I will say I get that it's more complicated than it seemed at first, because now that we're facing the prospect of a second trump presidency clearly the administration is not would not be staffed with people like you were people I did up or any of enhanced

Journalists forget about moderate republicans, just like conservative republicans who care about the insult one, because air. I would hope that people would, I hope, but hope that few people slip in, but one day I was there at the end, I dunno. What second term plans were. I I dont want to catastrophes are hypothesize about. exactly who would be there, because I hope, together in this next year collectively as a country, people can come together and do can do everything we can to make sure that he has not the republic phenomenon that ticket, but that being side they would accept. I think that they voted that people so extensively that people wouldn't have the opportunity to slip in

it'd be ethical voices for like you're, one hundred per cent loyal to trump, yes or you're, correct uneven, like towards the end of the administration that there is publicly reported- and it's also been publicly reported sense- leave a schedule af, but how the going through and firing the career institutions like that. Undemocratic good gives its also acquire even debating. There's like this is not an issue that should even be on anybody's radar here, but he and- and this is why your broke- his is greater read because when you read it, and some of it is reliving at and a lot of new detail to you like, oh, if it was like now imagine like you know, rudy giuliani is a g and my pillow guy is the secretary of commerce. I dunno like it's a day. I talked to people. I try to talk to people about too, and I think it's as if there's

there there needs to be voices like ours that will call attention to it. I am trying to think of the most effective way to do it, but donald trump would be president. Yes, but he is not the end of the problem if Donald trump was to disappear tomorrow of yours is to drop off the face of the earth or two drop out of the race altogether. The issue is still going to exists now next term presidency too, to be debated, but if there were to be a second trump term presidency, there's not going to be people institutions willing for multiple reasons I mean one. I can't think of any people that I respect that would want to put themselves not line of fire. Knowing what happened at the and even just how the administration unravelled in the final few years, but for us a very practical matter.

I was extremely fortunate out of very low and dark place. My life to have people that gave me a second chance. My legal bills will be insurmountable. If I didn't have that opportunity- and I'm very fortunate, very fortunate for and that's why, I also feel the need to talk to people about it, but there is the point of who would it be, but it's also like why? Why would you do that because his loyalties art to himself yeah, you europa, various turning points for you and how you viewed trump and the white house when was that first time you remember thinking there might be something different and wrong with this administration, and this president, like when did you start getting the real doubts there? There were several I mean. You think me the first time that I really remember having this jarring feeling of

There is something more here was the knights that we hide a rally in rome, georgia- and I write about this accent and not extensively. When I write about in great detail the book, but I essentially, we had a rally in rome, georgia and a campaign official had asked me to go into the middle of this massive crowd: there's a little shack and to retrieve smith named tony bob Lewinsky, who is hunter Biden's former business partner tony bubble, as he had been publicly seen with trump at a rally not or at the debate national few weeks prior- and I immediately, I can't scriveners any else other than I just had this really nauseating feeling inside of you again, no reason by pressing against I read about in detail in the book, but I kept pressing it like this is not a good. Why is mark doing this? I don't want marketed. This is not a good idea with fees been seen publicly

so just dislike. I felt that. I knew a lot that was going on and I in some ways dead, but that was the first time round like I had been shoving. Alot of red flags in the back of my mind, like a lot of our covered policies are covered I suggest how we are handling, determine kane story. The leg tell too in all very soon been very jarring experiences, but when you're living in you, you ve lived that life in the as I hope it wasn't, his good is ours, but there was no as not as one hour was like a week's that that is true, and that's us I think like yet ex use anything but like sometimes had gone with the tools for mark with seven things, and I would maybe get half something done so like things, seventeen years do survive on our right and our survival know how big a deal the days of This is doing a job right like so it's it is. I always tried to keep our perspective in that hindsight, but it is

I was there to do a job and I had a role and I had to fulfill that role and if I didn't, then something would happen, but the tony bubble, as he was really the first like great. This is there's something very shady and whether it was or not. I don't know I just That feeling is over the election happens and like a week afterwards. There's this, like now famous quote that a senior republican official give the washington post, thought about going to be and it the quote, is: what is the downside for humor in him for this little bit of time? No one seriously thinks the results will change. He went golfing this weekend Like he's plodding how to prevent your mind from taking power on january twentieth, unlike we this isn't going to discover who said that no I've asked of us like actually parker, to which those of us her peace, but like no one will realise that as if no one reveals that is, but it's like is that, is that how you felt

the times that how other- and I am the way I immediately. Ah, I immediately knew that we lost. I was like it's over and because I immediately went into the oil sought, Guph wait until we are what's next. I had the present had taught me about even before the election value with the Democrats feel this election from us as we move to florida with but offer That is why there was Hyundai gap ride, mark meadows and I had covert so I was out when I came back. There was a it felt different and I couldn't quite place my finger on it, but I I knew

wasn't just going to end. I didn't think it was going to end the waited and to be clear about things you I think when there is a close election mother, it's state level what russia level senate, how senate president? No matter what it is like you, how can it as have the right to file losses? but it's when you are defying, but the courts are saying here, define our rule of law and then your we, the administration, was pushing it and push it and pushing it. That's when I sort of started to gain a sense that ok there's something that's. He's not he's not he's not golfing and ready to leave right. When you an idea I thought he would give up easily, but I don't you know I can't speak for others. I didn't see it ever getting to the point that it did at that juncture. I doubt many people did but in I know I think that

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bring you a story that most americans never learned in history class, how early partnerships between mad scientist, gunsmith, located at the heart of the american revolution itself, massachusetts and a fledgling? U s: government created the gun industry and how that industry has been here's what the government ever since this two hundred fifty year relationship underpins all americans interactions with guns, including our failures in dealing with the followed of gun, violence, the gun machine, podcast debuted on october. Fourth, twenty twenty three listen and follow an apple spotify, amazon, music and wherever you get your pike s. You write that, even though you felt strongly the time that he should concede, you said I didn't blame the president any of it. Yet I didn't want to blame him. Why is that? Because I felt as staff as I felt working for mattos when I took the job with that. As I was clear, I worked for the chief of staff, who happens to be mark meadows.

Not mark meadows, and he that was a very clear distinction, not because I you know I I liked mark, but I I worked for the office saying that I felt that as staff, it was our job to provide him with the information and counsel that he needed to make sound decisions and if we were not keeping the floodgates. And letting people and are letting him be privy to conversations again does is ninety percent of the time it was our faults end it not receiving the best advice from the staff that should be working in his best interests. So I don't think because, even like from, we never had anything like this, but when I knew if I felt responsible, if I wrote a shitty speech which I did and I was like, I can spend our time

now that's my but like if Barack Obama was like gonna, go out to the cameras and say some stupid or make a mistake which shall he did? I Do that's on you. That's not our fault like their vitality in the trunk administration, though, in around donald trump circles- and this is again I'm speaking as somebody who I was not enough tramper, I was not somebody that he would have considered awry now. I was there much so on team trump, and this is from my perspective now too, though, and I note that at the time it much more heighten now Third, the sense of loyalty and dedication to him is not normal, but it felt normal at what I've done patient to him, but it also everyone is devoting loyalty and italy treating them like a child, though little makes of a child and sorted this divine. That's what I'm out on one hundred ruins like worships him on the other

and it's all like. Oh, what are we supposed to? Do? We just gotta, we gotta keep it's all about good and useful in how many come at university, get like billboard, tell him, there was no fraud like out the people around him hammered given. Well this advice, but then is like oh he happened to run and regionally audience any powell, and so therefore we gotta be relaxed. I should like you, I should have kept leg. I should have kept ridicule. Anthony Powell away from ever done that again questions that I I had better responses. I mean Rudy's rudy's, a separate breed has been in his life for a for long, very long time. I I did. I ever talk to mark about ass. If we can't be letting these people around him mark would say I sometimes he would agree, but sometimes you'd say will dare to present, want to talk to them. We're going to have these meetings, but the I I felt this response. building. That was the big reason why I wanted to go to morrow logo with him afterwards. It was because I yes We were filing lawsuits in

fine, there still were those the costs of characters coming in and It's privy to a lot. I wasn't privy to any everything, but I also could see a very clear picture of mister trump going to florida in his post presidential life at the time, predicting that he would still be a force in republican polls, six and at the time wanting there to still be sound and reasonable voices around him yeah. I was going to ask that because, like you, there's this heart wrenching scene at the night of Jan six. What were you have a phone call with your mom and she's like begging you not to florida. She never wanted me to go to florida. It's like in january. Six has just happened and you're like and I have to go, have already committed. The boss needs good people around him. The only reason they happen is because we let bad people crazy people around him. I need to try to fix that.

As it. What are you trying to fix at that point? We see. Is that he's done confidently again, I at the time it was, if there's anything, to preserve with his legacy that we need to try to do that, but it also from the bigger picture I had. I knew. Oh, I would say, with great confidence. Ninety eight to ninety nine, ninety, eighty to one hundred percent of every republican house and Senate member I'd say greater, maybe sixty five to seventy percent of Democrats in both chambers. So I had the connections and was predicting the. He unfortunately would still be a force in republican politics, and if I could be there the I knew that they trusted me, because I had built the reputation

and I built a trusting relationship with a lot of members in on both sides of the isle. If I was down there, you know at the time I thought I could. I may be able to help, I might be able to bring some may be able to rationalize some of this for them. and make sure that things don't go completely awry again. I am also somebody really isn't last year, or so I put it the blame on myself how things work isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I there were no adults. in the room- and I am in adults- I am very much so in adults, but I don't ever want to be judge for my gender or my age are known to be judged for my competence and whites. I have or have not achieved, and I'm very candid also about the mistakes that have made. I I think if I haven't, but I might a reaction reading. A lot of the book was, you did seem like the adult in the room with a lot of crazies, and I was wondering like well

She certainly seems like the adult in the room like did This is not all raise a bunch of flags like before that, or is it like flags that you really give these are some crazy people, unlike our work, to fix it november through mid two right before christmas took around like pop December seventeenth, it was red flags, but this is going to get rid of it. I didn't have to. Like january, six electoral college get certified like it right. No concept of this at all. No, I remember reading a lot of pieces about like he's going to stay and there could be a coup and blah blah blah, and even I at the time was like look, I'm pretty is about all this and like we gotta get a job. try a bike. I I don't see how this happened like I wasn't You know, summer evening sums vague, bigger turning point. Me n. Ok, things are starting to get dark, and that was the night.

The meeting that started in the oval office with MIKE flynn sidney powell is Patrick byrne, who is a former or current ceo of overstock dot com, pushing for him to invoke the insurrection act or martial law, which then carried up to the yellow oval in the residence at night and went past midnight that so that things started to feel really dark after that. So then I started to tune in a little bit but again it january section it I'm not not excusing any of it at all. All I. I look back Wish I had done more and I live without regret every single day of my life, but again there are still things going on your work to pass the a. We are working, the odds was more than just elections have. We are also still trying to keep the gears moving like there were some people that were trying to start transition process, so there

There wasn't like it was a huge and massive focus of, and took way too much attention and resources from staff who should not have been dealing with of that, but there were other things. I also is doing to try to keep myself in my job functioning, so you, make the decision to testify and the second set of testimony and then go to the january six committee, and and now you surf turned on trumpet trump world now that you look back because we talk a lot about what you thought at the time now that you're looking back like I don't like you, you said you, it's not like you renouncing all your conservative positions, that's your political beliefs rate but like when you look at the republican party today and you think about the republican party that

you wish would be the reality like. What is that party look like and whose money for this of black and explained earlier than are not afraid of fraud? I do still consider myself a republican in principle. I do not identify or associate with any part of the republican party. That is what I consider the trump republican party, the maghreb. Whatever you want to call, it is technically the same republican party, yet I do not personally believe it is. I am holding onto hope that we can eat a week. I wish I strongly believe in those speaker. Policy has also spoken on this. We are designed in theory to have.

Two party system that requires a strong democratic body in a strong republican party or at every one to call him yeah healthy. It is where we can sit in have did like I look forward to a day or we can sit and not have to talk about the extremism of what the republican party has turned to. I hope that we can get back with palacio? It's never say: never, it's not in the next you're going to go back to a place where it was in two thousand or like the Mccain republican party that that you know I don't know we can ever get back to that place, but also the democratic party has evolved beyond what it was in two thousand and two. So it's partition, but you know I with that said if trump as a strong f, if trump is the nominee

The republican nominee next year- and I I haven't, decided whether I wall turnin meyer button my republican card, but I I think there is a much greater chance sets. I will not associate myself with the republican party anymore because that to will be Indeed, the turning point may be should and should have been a long time it or maybe should have in the data supplied bag. I still hold onto hope that we can have a functioning to party system and but it's going to take people that believe in the agenda to get it back to that place. You said it was a big enough. I wish it was a big if, if done number its aid, I like many others. I hate doomsday hypothesize about it. No, I really think that the closest he should ever gets the oval office again is when he goes the pretty much court house in washington decent first trial. He belongs nowhere near the oval office, the white house anywhere, but like an event, I am I

innocent until proven guilty right. Of course, let it he says. it does not belong at, but I don't want to hype up cause. I we all should be doing everything we can to make sure that's what you know. Look I've I've been spending the first part of this being like. Why did it take you so long kind of thing, but ask like what is going on with everyone else. Like you, ve watched these republican primary debates like Why aren't more republican politicians and staffers and strategists breaking with him still now like, and what? What? What because you work these people and you know them like what do you think's going on in the heads of like descent, staffer is making healy staffers pen staffer re like all these, but you know I mean I am largely cut off from republican circles in some ways.

I also spent the last year largely in isolation for practical and security matters, but also because I was working on will only really spent anyway, but do it. I and I can't climb into the psyche. of those staffers, but what I will say pertaining to my experience at least I was very candy after january, sex about it being our meaning, the administrations fault, not anti, VA, not anti policy, it was our fault. I was not shy about. One of my best friends in the administration is less affair. Griffin she left in early december because she solve, or things were, going.

january. Seventh Alyssa came out and sharply denounced what happened on January. Six and pardon me was really ticked off at her about it, because then my mind at the time it was she promised to be loyal, but there's also this part. That was a little bit more self conscious, but I also was able to recognize that right was sort of envious of her, because I saw that she was doing something that felt impossible and it rove rove wrapping that into like the year and a half that I spencer, with this moral tug of war and also just very limited financial resources to retain I an attorney from the onset of being subpoenaed. I also was afraid, because I I saw people like a lesser who, in my opinion, took a very courageous stand like Liz cheney, like I'm kinda you're like a ten house, republicans who voted to impeach him,

and I saw what they were dealing with and it was sort of like you're damned if you do and you're damned, if you don't so, it was easier to stay quiet and be complicit in it. And yet I say that with shame, but they I I sort of Ere, I accept it, I think people and they say that I was brave and greatest, but I wouldn't be indisposition. Add people not set the example before You know. I was there and it was my obligation also ned and I swore an oath and I was ashamed and discuss it with myself tat I ever ever lost sight of that and they're afraid of a secondary aside. It was so well all that said you know I I can't climb into their psyches. I can speak from my experience. I would anticipate, or I would expect some of them might be afraid of just breaking because of the opportunities do seem bleak it does. I really feel like there's a home and if you feel like you're, going to get beat up by the left and then chastised by the right like, but you still care about the

J, like were ready, really fall. I think some of their are stats. Dont want to take a stand in case. It is the nominee and they want to be able to work for him or if they are candidate, might be a vp, and I can't climb into all the psyches, but there had there is something there. That's is this the selfishness of the trajectory of how a lot of my former colleagues or just people in general that are working on these campaigns are willing, at least here to democratic principles. It's not about a man is on about this movement, it's not even by the base like the base. Being fooled, yeah, they're, not being represented and yeah. I would hope that we could get somebody on the ticket, but the debate a couple of weeks ago, almost all of the candidates on raise their hand of days. If, when brought my air ass, if he was convicted you're, not it not just indicted, Lydia vineyards if convicted fond of

violating and obstructing the constitution of the united states, that is disqualifying and if it were democrats on that stage, the same thing. You know that the right riving media would go after them, there you're, doing all rarely on that stage who raise their hands, it was Chris Christiana agents in its actions and wasn't on the second debate stage. I think Chris crises great, I dont, think presidential material. I break I admire that that he is willing to take that stand right now. It's just. It seems like that. But its ever knew them well rounded up and the absolutely. But we know it when you live in a culture where, as republicans that are living this culture of their getting away with evading subpoenas or testifying truthfully nicely or pleading false memory are pleading the fifth on that as normalized end. Your seen as heroic or your scene is doing the right thing like there is not really an incentive to do. Otherwise, if you're

being lionize by the people that girl. Up to and they are relying on for employment again, I'm not agreeing yea of it at all. I won't I mean you ve said that we should use very admirable that you want to spend the next year you're in a couple months of making sure that isn't it back to the white house like woody, what do you think it like? What what are you would you make to people your age who might be considered? working on his campaign or in the white house. What arguments were making too like people that you might still talk to in republican politics or just you know, you have a platform in your speaking now like what do you? What do you think? What what do you think can reach people that were, like you still trying to figure that out? in all honesty, and I hated flung the book because I You don't have needs by the buck. You go to your local, I have read. So we have to say

I say this because that I would appreciate if yo. To listen to my story to listen to what I have. I say not asking for anyone to believe me. ere. I hope that by asking people to listen at all at least created thought process and make people think about the impact of their actions, because there was a time where I felt like you know, maybe it isn't my responsibility. Speak to all this. There should be the the cortical adults in the room. The men many more years my senior men like

giuliani, who was born during world war. Two I dislike would like to add who are, in my opinion, not doing the right thing, but yet like I in any way that I can just sit, try to reach people. Others through my book, which I I I tried to be as honest and as raw and vulnerable, when my personal life, and also in my political life, is that you know there is a a story to be world here, and I think it required a lot of thoughts. You know I I knew what I was doing was wrong on a subconscious and also conscious level, but I also was excusing it and took a lot to get me to the point where I am, and I also don't want that I am here because I had been truly like it or not, bring religion into the lake. It angels

that came, and I I did work for a second chance, but like just really incredible people that didn't owe me anything or didn't have to believe a mirror. Didn't have to grant me this opportunity and not even to testify, but to tell my story like it. I didn't feel deserving of that, but I have now, and I think by listening to my story like I want to create an environment where either people feel like they can talk to me or they can relate to her the it provokes them to think about what they're doing and how they may or may not be complicit, or they might have the blinders up and and also like, there's a place for them. It's once they come back home, but like there's, there's a place. That's about decency, and it's about standing up for country and our democracy and again like I, I want to get back to a place where we could sets. I have an event at on monday at politics, and prose are talking about all of this and Jamie raskin is the moderator for the event

we can have conversations, we don't need to debate and say policies but like I I, but I hope that we can get back to that place. Yeah. No, I mean me to us just we got it. We got him in the way written in the waiver is once again, as I said earlier. If he were to disappear, we see it with what's happening the house right now. If he were to disappear tomorrow, does whatever the movement doesn't go with him? It doesn't we don't just burst normalcy, isn't just restored. We need to elect responsible people to government, we need to elect people who have integrity and character and care about our country and constitution, and to do that, we need to do educate people and to have people listen, and I think one thing that was sort of a a disadvantage. For me at least the way I thought at the time was like: okay, there's the anti trump voices in the media and online or whatnot, but.

it, doesn't really feel welcoming, cause you to sort of feel chastised for believing in what you do, and it's not a my excusing, it's okay, but like their look, it's hard to shame people out of the police yeah. I think that I I I believe that it's not productive. It's not productive! If it's for trump and Biden vote for Biden. I m reserving at this time, because I will I plan to do everything I can in this next year to ensure that donald trump is not the nominee on that ticket. But what I will say is if he is the nominal not take it. I think everybody needs to again collectively come together to make sure that he has not nominated for a second term, and voting third party is not the way to do that. That's good That's good and look up. I have been wondering to and like the last year take georgia, be get out there and at some point I like there's just. I think

people are not. I think, we're honestly helps. I admired or at which I think it helps having people like general colleague go out or mark milly or people who were on the inside people who were in his inner circle come I think that your anew, like the firelight bombers, bushes boy, we were here- you know that it is not going to get an obvious, loves lawyers, but not just ride out chargeable radio gravity. But, like you know, a lot of cabinet secretaries that we're trump cabinet people are not with him this time- and I do think there like and they re leaving this blood for it now, in this last year of people coming up as the largest phases of the ones that are often heard, and now they drown out other voices, and, I think part of its the media's fault and not going to just take blame away from them. but I also think yeah. I never saw myself in a position like this. I imagine.

To it at least I'm trying to, but to have voices that people feel like they can trust and have integrity to them. Again, I admit my fault, I'm not trying to excuse any of it. I was not forthcoming to the committee and a lot of instances now again live with a lot of regret and shame that not because Legal jeopardy. For myself I was very kid like look, Is there a reason to accept the consequences of my actions? That's not it to the right thing, but it's just we need. We need people out there that see the danger of this moment, and I just I. I hope that people will listen and sort of start to come around. I guess it's a hard jumped make, but it's really not that bad once you do with it I guess it's qualifies as a lighter question, even though much lighter topic, the speakers race, you I spent a mccarthy

closely with a lot of the unfortunate do steeps police who in turn for like? What's your engine jordan, which you take on what's going on there and what like HU. We be rooting for here. Yeah doesn't make a difference. Should we be just be like Jordan? Scully's will be the same. I don't think I'll be this enough. Candidly, I haven't been following the nuances of its all that closely, but I do know these characters as individuals and on the professional level. What will say about Mccarthy briefly, as I did work very closely with him, I had a great professional relationship and friendship with him Kevin made his own back with this. He had so many opportunities. Not only do the chronicle writing, but I define us rightly be. He came out on January six denouncing the president.

Involvement in what happened, and then he was at marilla weeks later. He he quite literally one got caught the gavel because he agreed that one member take it from the rights which hydrated I've been I'm egotism. When there were shreds me early requests were to fall back on that. At times I was like you I. I could see the point of view. Why would Democrats votes to oust him, but I think made the courageous decision in doing so. He'd has not been a speaker of integrity and honesty has not been a trustworthy player, he's on everything to appease the masses. Just to keep that gavel even like look at ukraine aid like Whatever your politics are about, ukraine and russia for public is a guy Our social security depends largely on european stability, like ukraine needs aid

I I don't. I don't blame them, for that. Does it, but that being said, maggie Zohan, others anybody it takes like it seriously or things he did. This was good to the country, does not know mackie matt gates at this, for a sound bites and to make a name for himself, he's not a serious politician by any means, and I could go on. That's all you say about have supposed to get sick or out of a job I mean he trusts eyes Kevin for working with democrats on. Is that and then and then mattered around the same thing to us, and so he should demand. Has absolutely no principles Scully's between squeeze and Jim Jordan? I would hope that there will be a third person, Jordan and trying to delicately phrases and diplomatic it's cause. They don't want to see your stroke. Ginger is a man of principle and I will give him that he is in my experience. He is one person I don't agree with his politics, but I do,

I believe, the heat he believe actually believes in his agenda and he doesn't just go masses. He agrees that the masses in large part, but Jim Jordan was privy to Nearly everything, if not everything about in pertaining to january sex, Jim Jordan, can't be trusted with the constitution. In my opinion, and if he has elected speaker galliot, yes, maybe he can. His voice will resonate with the more extreme conservatives, but he's not going to be representative of the mass

in congress, which is do the people whose represent america there there are moderate republicans still in congress, as there are some moderate democrats, but Jim Jim can't be trusted with the constitution. He can't be trusted to represent those people. Oh Steve is a different or I would hope that there would be a third person that would emerge in, I think, patrick the country has a lot of character and integrity. I don't think his name is in the hat. I don't think that he would want the job. Frankly, it's not a job that I would What's the point yeah it's it's it's. It's also just really an unfortunate place with a republican party to be in and honestly embarrassing, but you know is that what causes change? I don't know.

I don't think so, but it's cassidy hutchinson begging for doing this again, like just just because something's, obviously right doesn't mean it's easy and I am like so I have a lot of admiration for everything you ve done. It was. It was not easy to do and I We hope that you can go back and we can just argue about poetry already other about just regular all politics stuff and not have to worry about the the creeping threat of a third The proposed by your former party- what we have heard already boat, but wonder you don't I dont identify with rice, lover or raw and saying that you I just want to thank you and everyone here, too, is like. I did my attorneys and everybody whose very warmly embrace me and offered the kindest words. I still don't feel deserving of. I do have the opportunity to sit here. If you guys is honestly means

Watch me to cut I supposed to be stoic about emotional, but it's usually get it. It means a lot because it's it gives me hope that we can get back to that place and that yeah we don't have to agree politically, but we agree on a human level and that we're americans and are important conversations also to thank you guys for welcoming me in Blanco county don't have to and that I appreciate your welcome and thank you thank you for stopping by you the thanks again to Cassidy hutchinson for joining us today. Everyone have a fantastic weekend and we'll talk to you next week. Bye, everyone, pod, save america is a crooked media production. Our producers are olivia martinez and David Toledo. Our associate producer is Farah safari writing support from halle kiefer reach. Ireland is our executive producer. The show is mixed in did by andrew chadwick, Jordan. Canter is our sound engineer with audio support from kyle segment and charlotte landis.

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